CvS2- K groove strategies

[EXMaster]

I'm a CvS2 novice who just started playing about 3 or 4 days ago. After testing the waters a little, I've been using the K-Groove and learning Rock to start with. I'm starting to get the JD down a little bit but I still get my a** handed to me on a regular basis. My question for all the pro K-Groove users out there is how do you effectively use the JD? Do you treat it like parrying or do you just guard normally and treat JD as an extra benefit if you happen to get it?

Also, I noticed that a people tend to compare the K-Groove to the P-Groove but does JD'ing enable you to counterattack as easy as parryng does? Basically, I'm asking if Just Defense and Parrying go hand and hand.

Finally, about Raging, since you have a limited amount of time to pull it off, do you always go for the super?

[blood_sin]

try to JD all the time, dont just take it if you get it. JD in the air works the best since people will try to anti-air you and end vulnerable while you can attack.

if youre raged, dont necessarily go for the super, but do go on the attack because you get a huge damage boost. go for the guard break, then free super.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Im no pro at CvS2 but ALL I USE is k groove, here is what i have learned.

Just defending is very good. Not for the life benefit but for the rage, and when they use hard (fierce & roundhouse) attacks you can counter attack them in most cases.

When in rage, if you KNOW your going to land your lv3 super, DO IT!!!! But if you have any doubt, don't use it.

When in rage, fight straight up and look to throw at almost every possible time.

learn how to JD pokes. JD'ing fireballs serves no purpose except for building rage, but JD'ing pokes builds your meter much faster than JD'ing fireballs because of the amount of times you JD.

Run and small jump are in k-groove for a reason. USE THEM. K-groove is an offensive groove, you don't do too much turtling with k-groove, of course, you can turtle a little when your winning by a good margin, but it isn't smart to just turtle in k-groove. K-groove = rushdown.

If we could make this the official k-groove thread this would be great. in that case i would like for everybody to compile a list consisting of characters that benefit from being in k-groove. (like...its a person's best or second best groove)

[smashfighter]

I have to disagree with 50mOrEcEnTz on one thing, K-groove can turtle just as well as rushdown. Get a good margin between you and the opponent, if they just throw lots of fireballs JD to life back, once they realize they won't win with the fireballs they will have to go in. That's when you try to cover as much ground as possible, make them have to jump in to attack you, JD their air attack, then go for the most damaging move/combo/throw you've got.

Not only is K-groove good for rushdown and turtling, but it is also anti-turtling. If you are having a hard time getting in, just say fuck it, and out turtle that shit with JDs. That makes you're turtling opponent play a different style, which may not be as good as their turtling.

Take advantage of the abundance of lvl 3 supers you get.

[BlackShinobi]

I'm not a K groove expert but it is the groove I play 95% of the time (until today)

the first thing you should learn in K groove is to get used to NOT using your super. fight the urge or it will get you killed.

my opinion on JDing and parrying opportunities is that you can JD everything but you can't parry everything
Ex. if Sagat is about to throw a c.fierce that you are probably going to block theres no harm in trying to JD it, but if you're in P groove risk eating whatever Super Sagat wants if you mess up.

Air Jding the first hit of alot of supers will cause you to bounce over the rest of the super

K groove is good for turtling as long as you don't plan on using supers, turtling until you get raged and then trying to convert a non rushdown character into one is not a good idea. They have a full guard meter and they know you're coming and that you're in a hurry.
My oringinal K groove plan was to turtle but I've done a complete overhaul since then
K groove is definately better for rushdown

If you're playing K groove to counter attack after JDs either change your plans or play P groove.

[Kitsune 02]

Originally posted by smashfighter

If you are having a hard time getting in, just say fuck it, and out turtle that shit with JDs.


Hilarious dude, real hilarious.


I decided to put my little 2 cents in by saying this: Never forget though that most K groove plus and minuses will have to be figured out according to your own play style.

Heres a question to everyone else though. What are the results of your opponent using k groove as well? Tough match eh?

[BlackShinobi]

Originally posted by Kitsune 02

Heres a question to everyone else though. What are the results of your opponent using k groove as well? Tough match eh?
K vs K is fun but its not nearly as caution as P vs P or even A vs A IMO
K groove has the best mistake punsher in the game, but those two grooves give you alot more chances to punish a mistake

[margalis]

One of the keys to K-groove is figuring out what you can get after you JD certain moves. This includes what is certain to hit as well as what it likely to hit.

For most K-Groove chars you want to find a combo that starts with a quick move and works well from a variety of distances. For example, with Yamakazi low short->sandkick->serpent slash. After you JD a move you use the combo and one of three things happens:

a: The move you JD'd was slow and the combo hits before it recovers.

b: The move recovers but you hit the opponent stuffing their next move.

c: Your opponent blocks and you get good guard damage.

d: You get stuffed is also possible, but should be rare.

One thing you have to learn is how to take advantage of ambiguous situations. These include JDing a jump-in or a jump-in followed by a low poke or a run->poke. Basically JD'ing an average speed move when the two of you are pretty close together. After that you can go for a combo, throw, special throw, etc. Since you play K-groove you should be more used to this situation, whereas your opponent might go into momentary brain freeze.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Originally posted by 50mOrEcEnTz
If we could make this the official k-groove thread this would be great. in that case i would like for everybody to compile a list consisting of characters that benefit from being in k-groove. (like...its a person's best or second best groove)

[St1NkYp00PmaN]

Man, Man, Man
K-groove is a very stable groove because if you're a turtle it works for you and if you are very offensive it's good for you too.

The best thing about K-Groove is that, like P-groove, you can jump in without worrying that u can't block it, unlike N-groove and A-groove and S-groove, it's the best to me.

If you can small jump and fierce kick really well while you are in rage mode...you can guard break his ass and do whatever...that's what I do and that's the only thing I can think of...

[EXMaster]

Originally posted by Kitsune 02

Hilarious dude, real hilarious.

Took the words right out of my mouth Kit. :)

Anyway from reading the posts, it sounds like you would use JD for countering slow or power moves, but not get overly offensive and counter everything you JD like I guess you would with parrying. Is that the general idea?

Bring back raging, just how much of a power boost do you get from it?

[blood_sin]

Originally posted by EXMaster



Bring back raging, just how much of a power boost do you get from it?

I think it's 35%, its the biggest boost in the game, n-groove's 'powa-up' is second.

[ben]

after I JD a jump in, I tend to get a lot of free throws in. characters with command throws benefit a lot from JD-ing. use that brief animation "freeze" of the JD to buffer out your command throw of choice.

[Kitsune 02]

Is it true that with K groove, when you Jd a multiple super, you only have to Jd once, and the rest will go past you? Really? For everyone's super? You're kidding, right?

[Kitsune 02]

Originally posted by 50mOrEcEnTz

In that case i would like for everybody to compile a list consisting of characters that benefit from being in k-groove. (like...its a person's best or second best groove)



I think its safe to say that anyone can benefit from K groove as long as you have rookies out there who think they can take a shotokan character and start throwing a slew of fire balls and various other turtle crap. I think it comes down to if you want to embarass someones game really bad, or just show off to other onlookers when they see you Jd a super contiuously.......

Thats 4 cents Ex Master.......

[BlackShinobi]

Originally posted by Kitsune 02
Is it true that with K groove, when you Jd a multiple super, you only have to Jd once, and the rest will go past you? Really? For everyone's super? You're kidding, right?
Air JD. And its not all of the time but it is most of the time.
EX sagat does a high Tiger cannon while you are jumping. i'm pretty sure you don't have to parry the whole thing in P groove in order to get to the ground, but in K groove all you generally have to do is JD the first hit and the rest will miss.

If the super is going straight at a pretty fast speed and you are going to land on top of it the bounce from the first JD should get you out of it.

[caliagent#3]

first i would like to say try playing p-groove. personally i think p is better but k-groove is also good. when i play k-groove i usually use it for anti-air and projectiles. it's a very good move to use as an anti-air. one time i played this guy who was using guile. everytime i jumped in he did a c.fp and when he did i jd his attack. the funny thing is he was so determined to hit me so he did it the whole match and i beat him.:D but the biggest benefit is JD'ing a fireball super because it's easy to JD and u get some life back. Check out the parrying thread there r some good tips there for p-groove.

[ben]

Originally posted by Kitsune 02
Is it true that with K groove, when you Jd a multiple super, you only have to Jd once, and the rest will go past you? Really? For everyone's super? You're kidding, right?

nope. all true.

for example:
try to parry ryo's ryuku ranbu (rush super), and you have to parry EVERY SINGLE hit. however, if you JD it, you only have to JD the first initial hit that's it.

[GeekBoy]

Originally posted by ben


nope. all true.

for example:
try to parry ryo's ryuku ranbu (rush super), and you have to parry EVERY SINGLE hit. however, if you JD it, you only have to JD the first initial hit that's it.

Actually, with parrying, you can parry a few hits and get by, not with everything though =\

[haduken111]

JDs arent so great for counter attacks, u can a command throw after a successful JD, but thats about it, some other attacks are guaranteed depending, but the main thing is that u gain a frame advantage.

So what u couldnt counter attack after a JD it opens opportunity for rushdown USE IT!. :D

[EXMaster]

About air JD'ing. Say for instance I'm fighting Sagat or Ryu and they do a Tiger Uppercut/Shoruyken Super. When you air JD the first hit, will you bounce back enough to avoid the rest of the attack or will you have to try to JD the whole thing to avoid taking damage?

Also is it true that if you do an attack in the air that you can't JD afterwards?

[BlackShinobi]

Originally posted by EXMaster
About air JD'ing. Say for instance I'm fighting Sagat or Ryu and they do a Tiger Uppercut/Shoruyken Super. When you air JD the first hit, will you bounce back enough to avoid the rest of the attack or will you have to try to JD the whole thing to avoid taking damage?

Also is it true that if you do an attack in the air that you can't JD afterwards?
On a tiger uppercut - no
on a Shin shoryuken - sort of
ryu's normal shoryuken - its only one hit

on a fierce tiger uppercut you have to JD all of the hits if your character doesn't have a move that will knock Sagat out of it. I'm still experimenting with who can and who can't. I found out the whole thing by accident during a tournament match last month.

On a shin shoryuken the main hit is the first hit, if you JD the first hit and get hit by the second it does almost no damage, but if you want to JD the whole thing its only two air JDs

if you attack in the air you can't parry or JD afterward except for one situation that I know "should work in theory" but I haven't tested it.

[NIN_CrimzinTerry]

i find that its hard to counter attack after a JD...but certain JDs like if you jd and jumping attack early you can counter attack...do you guys have effective ways to be able to counter attack after JDing?

im outi

Roberth

[margalis]

You have to develop a quick combo and just learn what you can counter and what you can't with each character. You can generally counter most low sweeps after a JD and many fierce attacks. If you JD a medium attack generally you are about even timing, go for a throw or a combo starting with low short.

[popoblo]

anybody have any good strategies/characters that do especially well in K groove? i'd imagine blanka would do very well considering his great pokes to use after JD'ing, his extremely fast level 3 ball super, short jump with hk, etc.

[blood_sin]

characters with auto guard, like geese and eagle, work good because they get a lot of meter when they get hit in auto guard (and counter).

OR

pick somebody with a good super, just let your opponent beat you until you get a full meter, then hit them with level 3 super, but that's not for beginners. :p

[MalignantMouse]

yes! awesome, a k-groove thread.

some good info on what is guaranteed after a successful JD on common pokes like sagat's or blanka's c.fierce, or ryu's c.strong, or bison's scissor kick blah blah blah, would be helpful. just some useful tidbits would help.

also, after i JD as the guy jumps in at me with an attack, what's the best thing to do?

[Vahn_Flyheight]

Does Yun stand a chance in K groove?

[50mOrEcEnTz]

I play blanka, rock, sagat, geese, and chun-li the most in k-groove. and i know they are good in k-groove. blanka is a bitch with run, small hop, and jd.

i have heard yami, cammy, rolento (sp?), and ken are good as well. i would like to know some strats especially for them in k-groove.

i have a hard time playin rolento, cuz u can't sit on the super in k-groove, so that hinders his game a little, but im sure run adds some to his game, i know small hop does but i'd juss like to know everything...even if i already "think" i know it.

[HeaT]

k groove ownz...

most characters are pritty good in k groove, except for those that really benefits from a roll like iori, or those that would benefit more from RCing like yun...

couple of things you can do after JDing a jump in...

if you JD high enough, you can attack before they hit the ground, normally the attack has to be fairly high...

if you jd deep enough or at certain heights you can throw when opponent lands...

you can try to continue JDing opponent if you annticipate low attacks which normally follow jump ins...

you can JD then super you can even do it with charge characters you dont loose the charge...



with rolento, when you have super rushdown and try to find an opening to combo take no prisoner super, of small jump cross ups, or small jump mp into take no prisoner...apply pressure on opponent to increase chances of mistakes and punishing them with take no prisoner....

also IMO when your super activates you shouldnt be turtling, use the extra damage and defense to your advantage and rush that shit down because if you get hit you take less damage but at the same time you give more damage when you attack...its a win win situation, your opponent should have been damaged more than you...

also depending on how good you are at JDing, if you are really good, then just burn super, i remember ino getting super with sagat at evo and then just running in do c.mk into super crouching fireball, if the mk hit hey thats cool if it didnt hey thats cool does block damage...i saw him do this as many as 3 times a round...so if you JD a lot burn fast, if not try to find opening but burn it before it runs out, if you will be safe...but this is theory, it all depends on whats happening during the match at certain points you would want to try to do more damage with your character thats raged instead of just wasting super...whatever though just do it when appropriate use your judgement at what times you should do things...

im outi

Roberth

[blood_sin]

Originally posted by MalignantMouse

also, after i JD as the guy jumps in at me with an attack, what's the best thing to do?

throw! especially if you have a command throw.

[popoblo]

good info heaT, i hope i can see a lot of good K groove action on the evo dvd.

but you can't get JD happy, because then the opponent can just jump in with no attack, you obviously whiff the JD, and they can throw you.

[GUINNESS]

Just know one thing for all HIBIKI users, SHE GETS OWNED BY ANYBODY IN K GROOVE. Everything she dishes out can get screwed over. So never Pick Hibiki in K.

[MalignantMouse]

throw seems to be a popular thing to do after JDing a jump-in. my concern is that if they go for follow-up attacks, like a c.short, will i be hit out of my throw attemp? does it depend on the nature of the jump-in?

also, if i JD a cross-up, what should i do after that?

and since small jumps give the char a little delay after they land from it if they do an attack in the air, if you JD an opponent's small jump, wouldn't this open up a lot of guaranteed attacks because of that delay?

thanks ahead of time.

[HeaT]

Originally posted by GUINNESS
Just know one thing for all HIBIKI users, SHE GETS OWNED BY ANYBODY IN K GROOVE. Everything she dishes out can get screwed over. So never Pick Hibiki in K.

you mean against k groove, cause she plays pritty good in k...

im outi

Roberth

[GeekBoy]

Originally posted by MalignantMouse
throw seems to be a popular thing to do after JDing a jump-in. my concern is that if they go for follow-up attacks, like a c.short, will i be hit out of my throw attemp? does it depend on the nature of the jump-in?

also, if i JD a cross-up, what should i do after that?

and since small jumps give the char a little delay after they land from it if they do an attack in the air, if you JD an opponent's small jump, wouldn't this open up a lot of guaranteed attacks because of that delay?

thanks ahead of time.

Just JD the follow up, more meter, more health, JDing when you can is good. If he follows up with c.Short a lot, he'll 2 or 3 before quitting, on instinct most of the time, if he does c.Forward or something, just JD that and throw/super.

JDing a cross up follow ups...depends on how deep/close the opponent hit me. If he has a ways to go before falling down (like an inch or something) you'll be able to do your B&B if you want, super, throw, go for damage at this point.

And yes, JDing a small jump attack basically gives you a free follow up, depending if the person does it immediately, which is the case most of the time. All this talk of K groove makes me want to use it again...

[50mOrEcEnTz]

-----some tid bits on k-groove for newbies-----

a major bonus of JD'ing is that u game frame advantage on any kind of jump in. i know everybody knows that, but there are MANY ways u can take adv. of the frame adv.

the way i like to, i like to just start a fairly short poke combo to set me up to where i can start my rushdown.

it disrupts a rushdown if u JD, start a poke, don't finish it completely, n u put urself in a good position to begin ur rushdown.

i throw VERY SPARINGLY against people after i JD, because there is time for them to get off a super, lv1 lv2 or lv3. so im weary of doing that, unless it is a SPD by gief, but even he can still eat supers too.


after JD'ing though, u can throw out ur super almost immediately after u JD, so if you have a quick super....use that tatic. u can't throw out normals or specials right after u JD.


as for JD'ing in the air....i don't know TOO much about it, i don't really use it to deal damage, i use it to save my ass, or to provoke people to burn their super they are TRYING to sit on, such as a fuckin blanka sittin on a lv3 in c-groove. any adv. tatics for JD'ing in the air would be helpful to me.

[Shin_Kensou]

Originally posted by 50mOrEcEnTz
I play blanka, rock, sagat, geese, and chun-li the most in k-groove. and i know they are good in k-groove. blanka is a bitch with run, small hop, and jd.

i have heard yami, cammy, rolento (sp?), and ken are good as well. i would like to know some strats especially for them in k-groove.

i have a hard time playin rolento, cuz u can't sit on the super in k-groove, so that hinders his game a little, but im sure run adds some to his game, i know small hop does but i'd juss like to know everything...even if i already "think" i know it.

aight 1st off yamazaki, yes he is good in k but i think he needs rolling personally. with zaki all u really need is standing r.house and standing fierce to combo his slap move. other than this u will be turtling most of the time.

cammy, damn good in k groove! with cammy wut u wanna do of course is abuse standing fierce and r.house but she has other pokes that own. for example, standing forward(from a distance), hella good priority, its fast, and it can be buffered into super. sound good eh? also her standing strong(from a distance) is really good against sagat and can be buffered into super as well as her special moves. for example, cammy vs sagat, say that ur poking at sagat wit close fierceX2 and he's ducking and of course blocking...after the fierceX2 do standing strong into her hoolagen(sp) combination or in short her command grab, if he stands up grab his ass, if he ducks hit kick and she'll do her dive kick and u can either 1, do a cannon spike, or 2 go into either super of ur choice depending on where it hit. if ur too deep both will not combo, but if ur at a good distance u own that foo for free.

ken, i play ken in k as well and he benifits from the rage gauge really good. y? for the simple fact that he can break guard faster than a sagat scrub can hit low fierce. example, if ur in rage and u go for the cross up, follow up with crouching jab, stand r.house and his half-circle forward+short kick and watch their guard meter say bye bye after doing that at most 3 times if not 2. always remember to use standing short and go into his half-circle forward kick bcuz it breaks the guard and that is wut ken is all about in k-groove.

also ur not obligated to jus waste ur meter by doing a super for easy block damage. y not jus throw their ass instead? ur already bitch strong so u do 2times the damgage of a normal throw.

wut i like to do if i kno i cant get a super is to rush them down, and after i do my poking series i would run up to them and throw them rite after i run. if ur wondering how so? well u can buffer a throw in stop animation of ur char. so basically after ur char stops running hold the direction u wanna throw them and chunk'em.

things that r good to kno if u dont know already:
1. ur bitch strong when raged
2. u break guard 2times faster
3. the enemy will fear u when u r raged:lol:
4. take advantage of 1-3

i hope this helped :D

[Tanion]

I think K-groove is better suited for average stamina - above stamina characters. I mean you can't JD everything an opponent is going to throw at your [your bound to mess up anyways... or the joystick gets racist >_<]. Currently, I am using a team of Rock/Rugal/Yama(2)... and I am doing pretty damn good with it.

I sometimes switch Rugal with Geese but I have trouble using Geese's supers [Raging Storm] when I need to really use it. But then again Geese is a freaking monster when he is raged.. as if normals didn't do big damage when he WASN'T raged. And countering supers is definentely a plus ^_^!

Also.. Hibiki isn't all THAT bad in K-groove. She has a counter ya know! Which builds up her rage meter. But the low stamina keeps her from getting raged twice in a round [unless u JD]. But hey... she was never meant to be a ``power`` character like Rugal or Bison. Just be careful with her and you'll do fine.

Also... characters with counters and good auto guards like... Rock, Yama, Geese, Eagle, Hibiki are great in K-groove since they can get Rage meter in other ways which in turn... is going to be easier for you to rage and kill your opponent ^_^.

Plus... JDs gives you free health [it might not be alot but hey... at least you won't die from chip damage if you JD]. Plus with JD... you can avoid a whole MESS of crap. Plus it saves you from throws too [unlike parrying... if you parry a move... they can throw you... but if you JD.. ur in block stun so u won't be thrown].

JD into a fast super is really awesome because you'll be out of block stun really quick [ex: JD into Rock's Shine Knuckle, Yama's Drill, Blanka Ball... etc].

But anyways... I don't think characters with really crappy stamina is good for K-groove. Sure they might get the added defense when they are raged but if your JD'ing is off... you'll pretty much only rage once a round. I want to hear your opinions on low stamina characters with K-groove like Morrigan, Yun, Akuma, Nakoruru, and Cammy.

[rallykupo]

Standard K groove rules:
Only attack with small jump. When u long jump in, always emtpy jump hoping to JD. Never attack with a long jump unless you are jumping over a projectile or something like that. When you jump to meet someone in the air, always JD first, then counter hit. Always try to JD into a sweep or c.fp as a wake-up unless you have a DP, but even so, i would JD anyways because most good players will only get nailed by a wake-up once in a match if any at all. Never get too far away from the opponent, you can't JD if you play keep away. (well ignore that last part if you use Rolento and Vega, they have to hit and run)

My K groove team,

Rock 1 on point
Nakororu 1
Bison 2

ROCK kicks total ass in K groove especilly if u play zone. I wouldn't turtle with Rock, the crouching position isn't very strong for him. Just stand up and walk back and forth. Only attack with short jump and if they are zoning as well, then run toward them a litte and stop. Throw repukens from a far and mix up the high counters with s.rh. Try to stay about 3/4 -1/2 screen from them at all times. Never forget to JD and K groove rules.

Nak good here too, keep close to them, poke with c.wp or a walking wk. Do not throw out a, qcf p or a bcd p if you know it will be blocked because even you use the wp version, you're gonna get nailed. Throw the bird at them and run towards them if they get to far away. BCD fp (the sliding sword thing) can be used from a far if they are standing. It can go under projectiles too. And her Heal super can be done from a full screen away and it can work at time because most people have never even seen her so they don't know about that super. By the time they notice you're getting life back, its too late. Never forget to JD and the K groove rules.

Nothing needs to be said about Bison...

[qwazy]

Originally posted by Tanion
But anyways... I don't think characters with really crappy stamina is good for K-groove. Sure they might get the added defense when they are raged but if your JD'ing is off... you'll pretty much only rage once a round. I want to hear your opinions on low stamina characters with K-groove like Morrigan, Yun, Akuma, Nakoruru, and Cammy.

i'd say give them the higher ratio. that'll give 'em a bit longer to live, and make you even more of a monster when raged.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Originally posted by Tanion
But anyways... I don't think characters with really crappy stamina is good for K-groove. Sure they might get the added defense when they are raged but if your JD'ing is off... you'll pretty much only rage once a round. I want to hear your opinions on low stamina characters with K-groove like Morrigan, Yun, Akuma, Nakoruru, and Cammy.

i do not think that players with crappy stanima are crappy FOR THAT REASON in k-groove at all. players with poor stamina are going to have poor stamina in any groove, so why does it hurt them more in k-groove?

cammy is HELLA good in k-groove i heard. most of the people u listed benefit more from other grooves because of options the groove offers and wut not. not saying the characters u listed aren't decent in k-groove, its just not their best groove more than likely....except maybe for cammy.

[GeekBoy]

IMO, if the character is good in one groove, chances are they'll be good in another, even though it may not seem that way. For example, Shiro uses C-Rolento, who has a pretty crappy lvl 2 cancel, but is still equally powerful. Why? Because of his high priority lvl 3 and his ability to be Storm.

Chances are, you'll probably be able to use your same team in K, even though it may not seem like it. Certain people do excel a lot better in K than in other grooves. Vega or Cammy's, IMO, potential increase dramatically when they're in P or K groove. As stated previously, the whole point of K groove is to get meter and then become aggressive, which has it's up and downsides. Up because what a basic hit would be is now counter hit damage. Down because your gameplay WILL be foreseen and can/will be evaded. So when playing K, it really does get down to how well your running and low jump skills are. Previous posts have addressed the JD follow ups, very well done. The real reason Cammy or Sagat do so well in K groove is because they have a dominating poke, and it just happens that that poke has a long range/high priority or both, and if it hits, you get a free super. To really make your K groove top notch, start or refine your mind games. Incorporate some P groove stuff, Bouya, who has a VERY scary parrying ability, relies a lot on mind games, and learning how an opponent will attack. If you know somebody's going to hit you when you wake up, JD to your advantage. Reading your opponent and matching your actions to counter his is the whole reason the game is still interesting in some ways.

[MalignantMouse]

i understand that the amount of meter you get from being hit isn't necessarily proportional to the damage you take, but often depends just on the type of attack sustained. for example, i read that getting hit by a fierce from whatever ratio earns you the same amount of meter even though a ratio 1 fierce and a ratio 4 fierce are a lot different.

is this true with all attacks? i hope my information is correct and if i'm completely off, someone correct me.

what i'm getting at is this. when i'm using my ratio 1 char vs. a ratio 2 and i'm in K, a lot more of my life goes down before i get raged. and when i'm ratio 2 in K vs a ratio 1, i get more rages it seems because i get the same meter while sustaining less damage. might it be advantageous for a K groover to go with r2/r2 for this reason?

[50mOrEcEnTz]

ur right in that it does take more for a R1 to get raged when going against a R2, but shit...an R2 in k-groove going against a R1 is also hella advantageous.....i see wut ur saying, but to me, it all evens out........but i ain't sayin im ryte, juss my opinion, it seems like u would just EVEN the board out if u put a R2 against an R2

[rallykupo]

Geekboy was wrong about this one line. Level 3 supers are strongest in N and S grooves. K ranks number 3.

Proof- level 3 fireball super from a ratio 2 ryu against a ratio 2 Kyo does
5432 in S,
5400 in N,
and only 4950 in K.
In C, it does 4725
and a shitty 4500 in P.

I would think that a level 3 in K would be stronger then N atleast and that P would be stronger then C atleast. But i guess the 30 percent damage increase in K is still kick ass

[nakedjackson]

finally a k-groove thread!

anywhoo, i was wondering if option selecting would be possible in K-groove (like option select parry but jd instead of parry). Also, for people with fast jabs, like Nako's standing jab, if i JD, can i follow it up with anything, or do i just have to eat em?

[GeekBoy]

If option select JD worked, EVERYBODY would use it, seriously, everybody would, it doesn't. If it's a fast jab person you're fighting, I'd just suggest JD, block or JD, throw. Block cause it's safe or throw cause you get invincibility frames in throws (not many, like 2)

[Tanion]

No, Geekboy was right about that K-groove deals the most damage out of all the grooves [when supers are concerned].

I did this test on the DC's version of Capcom vs SNK 2... I don't think that matters unless it's hella different from the arcade version! :lol: Anyways... the damaged recorded was done on level 2 damage... R2 Yama's level 3 Guillotine [the ``flying grab`` super] versus a R2 Ryu. Here are the results.

C - 6000 [level 3 MAX]
P - 6000 [level 3 MAX]
S - 6300 [Red Life+Charged Bar]
N - 6000 [Power Stock+Another Stock]
K - 6600 [Charged Bar]

You probaly got your numbers wrong because if you left your bar set to INFINITY, you will ALWAYS have the bar. This may seem obvious but for N and S groove... it matters. Because if you left it in INFINITY, the 20% attack boost stays on while your super is activated. This means the super will do 20% more damage than it should. Samething goes with S-groove. The red-life attack boost stays there forever [unless you heal somehow.. ex: Nako's heal thing or groove edit mode and JD like a mad man] but the charged meter attack boost goes away once a super is activated... thus you lose the attack bost. For some reason K-groove seems to be the only one [along with S-groove's Red life attack boost] that tags super's damage with the attack boost.

The interesting thing is that supposed C groove gets a certain percentage attack boost once it reaches a certain level on the bar. This is true but it doesn't effect the super. So P-groove can dish out as much super damage as would C groove. The only ones that recieve attack boosts are S and K. The following info I got from Gamefaqs.

C-Level 1 | = (1%)
C-Level 2 | == (2%)
C-Level 3 | ===== (5%)
A-Full Meter | (0%)
P-Full Meter | (0%)
S-Red Life | ===== (5%)
S-Full Meter | =============== (15%)
S-Full Meter + Red Life | ===================== (20.7%)
N-Power Activation | ==================== (20%)
K-Full Rage Meter | =================================== (35%)

As you can see... K-groove delivers the most damage in terms of super damage and attack boost. So there =P


Ok anyways... I wasn't saying that crappy stamina characters are... crappy. I'm just saying that crappy stamina characters arn't suited for K-groove because of it's way of attaining meter [getting hit and JD'ing] because they won't last that long. But I see your point that once Cammy get's raged... damn watch out! Her pokes are even more dangerous. But I don't think small jumps are all THAT good. Sure it can act like a bootleg universal overhead or start your rushdown... but ur still vunerable on the way down. Plus u can't JD because your not allowed to when you small jump. Oh well. I guess K-groove is a type of groove that your character is really good at or pure garbage.

[Tanion]

Originally posted by 50mOrEcEnTz
i throw VERY SPARINGLY against people after i JD, because there is time for them to get off a super, lv1 lv2 or lv3. so im weary of doing that, unless it is a SPD by gief, but even he can still eat supers too.


Well... if your character has a super throw... won't you be able to do that too? I think super throws have the highest priority because I once beat this person's Ryu's Shin-Hadoken with Yama's Drill [not the jumping throw super]. It was crazy o_o.....

[MalignantMouse]

Originally posted by Tanion
No, Geekboy was right about that K-groove deals the most damage out of all the grooves [when supers are concerned].


have you taken a look here? www.shoryuken.com/games/cvs2

take a look at the damage data for supers. i dunno if the info is wrong, but if someone can confirm tanion, then shite.

[pain]

http://shoryuken.com/games/cvs2/img/groove-super-damage.jpg

I'm assuming this is the chart. If it's made by Capcom then it's probably accurate. I know for sure S-groove has the most damaging lvl3 super, but I'm not sure if N does more damage than K....

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Originally posted by Tanion


Well... if your character has a super throw... won't you be able to do that too? I think super throws have the highest priority because I once beat this person's Ryu's Shin-Hadoken with Yama's Drill [not the jumping throw super]. It was crazy o_o.....

im talking about like specials and normal throws because that is what the person before me was talking about. but yeah; super throws work everytime just about. but man...how stupid are you if you normal jump towards a k-groove raged character, especially a zangief, yama...or anybody with a super throw

[pain]

Aiit, I tested lvl3 supers out with R2 Chun Li's kick super on R2 Ryu. I used recover instead of infinite meter and here are the results I got:

S: 6140
K: 5940
N: 5400

I guess K is more damaging than N so that chart may be wrong.

[Rokiseph]

Hi, the Chart is wrong. Whoever made it, did it with Infinte On.

Hello Pain, you can't use Recover , you have to use normal because halfway through her move, she gains back her power up raising her attack damage up to 6281 even. under Normal mode, her Lvl 3 Super Actually Does 5670 to Ryu under the same circumstances.


Under the Level 3 Line up it's ;
K - 5940
S - 5670
P - 5400
N - 5400
C - 5400
A - Huh?

And the same reason why it's better to Do a Level 1 special on C-Groove when your bar is full, is because they give you the extra damage on your level 1.

[cheese_master]

I read somewhere a while ago that the Japanese found something out in CvS2 where there are times you can't go into a blocking animation, but you can parry or JD. I was wondering if anyone has found such situations and knows how to exploit them. I can't seem to figure out such a situation where this works.

[Nelziq]

Is there a way to keep my charge when JDing? I play K Blanka and Vega and I have trouble pulling off my charge moves when i JD (sometimes i can do it, sometimes not) Whats the trick here?

[A-Dhalsim]

How bout we talk about something important, instead of lame tests on damage. Everyone should know the damage ratios. How bout specific parrys that give you free attacks, like Sagat vs K-Sagat...JD ducking fierce.....free low short tiger knee for K-Sagat.

Chew on that for awhile...and come back with some useful information instead of what groove does the most damage.

AfroCole

[Alphastorm]

I read from shinakuma that if you low jump with fierce or rh then immediately go into a low super, it would be unblockable. Is this true at all? Maybe cole can shed some light on it.

[cheese_master]

Dammit... some one give me some good examples of what i am talking about. Blocking takes frames to go into. JDing is instant... so like what would be some good uses to this? I thought I had an idea w/ K groove Hibiki. I read a while ago about the Japanese trick they use w/ her... where her combo cr LK X 3, cr jab, MP slash is safe from Bison's Scissor kick. Well I tried it out. Didn't work. CPU couldn't block reversal S. Kicks. So I figured that maybe if I put it on all JD... well that didn't work either. So I wanna know wtf the japanese dudes were talking about w/ practical applications to this.

And people STFU about groove bar damage... all you need to know is K groove supers hurt.

EDIT:

Is there any point to JDing cammy other than having the option of a DP or super if you figure she may counter.

Cole... do you mean Sagat gets a free tigerknee... or cr LK into tigerknee?

I know Geese gets a free cr jab if he JD's Blanka's cr FP at mid range.

EDIT2: K groove Sagat vs Chun or K groove Geese vs Chun... can they JD first hit of SBK and DP or high counter? This would be useful info for K groove people... cuz Chun Li is a whore.

[pain]

No, you can't do anything after the first JD; just JD the rest of the super or block until the super finishes and then punish them.

[DarthSalamander]

Originally posted by cheese_master
I thought I had an idea w/ K groove Hibiki. I read a while ago about the Japanese trick they use w/ her... where her combo cr LK X 3, cr jab, MP slash is safe from Bison's Scissor kick. Well I tried it out. Didn't work. CPU couldn't block reversal S. Kicks. So I figured that maybe if I put it on all JD... well that didn't work either. So I wanna know wtf the japanese dudes were talking about w/ practical applications to this.



Do the combo very slowly, as slowly as possible. I don't play Hibiki but the point was to spread out the hits as long as possible so that they still combo but push out the opponent even farther than a B&B done with normal timing. IIRC Roundhouse Scissor Kicks will still punish but Short or Forward will not. I forget if PC still does. So depending on what your opponent is accustomed to punishing with, the trick could be useful.

[ShinRyuBen]

K gief owns... JD into SPD/FAB... jump ins... pokes... just sit there... and if they are far away (Sagat c.fierce) then do the flying powerbomb... and if raged the ARS is also too good... even if they jump straight up or away... run up and ARS (does hella damage while raged it seems esp. r2)....
I also use Rock and Nak alot in K... the run in s.jab over and over maybe a tick throw (with nak obviously) is fun to annoy with... with rock if u JD a laggy poke while up close and raged you can NDR.... I use yama alot but I like him better with roll or dodge...
ok now ceasing rambling... later dudes..
--->>Ben

[nakedjackson]

no one answered cheesemasters question as to whether geese can jd the first hit of sbk, then counter. I Don't think its possible, but can anyone prove this. JD to counter would make my life sooo much easier

[GeekBoy]

Originally posted by nakedjackson
no one answered cheesemasters question as to whether geese can jd the first hit of sbk, then counter. I Don't think its possible, but can anyone prove this. JD to counter would make my life sooo much easier

It isn't. SBK is a continuous attack and JDing gives lag at the end, so just keep blocking or JDing. It's the same with Eagle's stick thing. You COULD try doing JD, jab, that works in P groove a lot to stuff people's attacks, but it's sort of risky. But, long story short, it doesn't work.

[cheese_master]

I thought Specials and super can cancel the lag on a JD. That the reason I say it. I mean Geese can JD a rapid fire jab into a counter... so thats why I asked... cuz the hits on a SBK aren't that fast... so I guessed you have time to cancel a JD recovery into a counter. I'm going to check it out on the DC sometime this evening and be back w/ results tomorrow.

[HeaT]

hey i found against chun if you jd her cross up you can pritty much just throw her after it for free...

im outi

Roberth

[cheese_master]

K... it doesn't work. I am pissed. I hate having to sit there and JD the SBK and guess whether it is going to end or keep going... and in the process have to block another one.

As far as throwing Chun for free after JDing her crossup... you can do that... but they can always super you after they land, so its not free.

I don't know what the hell Cole was talking about... I haven't got crap to hit after JDing the cr FP.

[HeaT]

Originally posted by cheese_master
K... it doesn't work. I am pissed. I hate having to sit there and JD the SBK and guess whether it is going to end or keep going... and in the process have to block another one.

As far as throwing Chun for free after JDing her crossup... you can do that... but they can always super you after they land, so its not free.

I don't know what the hell Cole was talking about... I haven't got crap to hit after JDing the cr FP.

ya but who does cross up into super when the cross up wont combo into super??? never heard of that shit before...

but about what cole was talking about...i didnt understand what he meant, did you try...the lk version of the tiger knee after the JD??? what about c.lk then tiger knee??? i think thats what he was talking about low short then tiger knee...makes sense cause the low short is a quick move so you have enough time to throw it out after the jd then tiger knee...i havent been to the arcade yet so i havent been able to try it...

im outi

Roberth

[HeaT]

i saw cole one time at evo like try to JD sakuras fireball move thing...and the game was like in slow motion i was like wtf...looked like it was glitching up dont know what was up with that shit...looked tricky to JD cause of slow motion...

does anyone know how many JDs is sagat fp DP??? i think ive JD like 4 or 5 times before but i still get hit...

im outi

Roberth

[GeekBoy]

Originally posted by HeaT

does anyone know how many JDs is sagat fp DP??? i think ive JD like 4 or 5 times before but i still get hit...

im outi

Roberth

Depends on how high you are in the air, if you're really high in the air, you have to JD the whole thing, if you're close to the ground, you just need to JD 1-3 times to fall down.

[cheese_master]

Originally posted by HeaT


ya but who does cross up into super when the cross up wont combo into super??? never heard of that shit before...

but about what cole was talking about...i didnt understand what he meant, did you try...the lk version of the tiger knee after the JD??? what about c.lk then tiger knee??? i think thats what he was talking about low short then tiger knee...makes sense cause the low short is a quick move so you have enough time to throw it out after the jd then tiger knee...i havent been to the arcade yet so i havent been able to try it...

im outi

Roberth

If i see someone only JD an air attack and throw repeated.... i'll do it. Plus i think foos can land and do a crouching Jab just before you can get your throw out.

EDIT: and crossup super does combo if done deep enough. LOL.

[HeaT]

Originally posted by cheese_master


If i see someone only JD an air attack and throw repeated.... i'll do it. Plus i think foos can land and do a crouching Jab just before you can get your throw out.

EDIT: and crossup super does combo if done deep enough. LOL.

thats what i was saying, that you can throw chun like right when she lands because you come out of jd like split second before she lands so she cant do anything...but again this is IF you jd that shit high enough...

im outi

Roberth

[Jcaddles]

Originally posted by A-Dhalsim
How bout we talk about something important, instead of lame tests on damage. Everyone should know the damage ratios. How bout specific parrys that give you free attacks, like Sagat vs K-Sagat...JD ducking fierce.....free low short tiger knee for K-Sagat.

Chew on that for awhile...and come back with some useful information instead of what groove does the most damage.

AfroCole

this is an ok thread but people are coming with not so useful things

here are some things if you jd you make "unsafe"

if you jd rolento,blanka and vega slide you can low forward with most characters into super

honda headbutt after you jd this you get at least a low forward helps out against the rc game

spiral arrow after you jd this you get at least a low forward

these are some things i know of hopefully someone can post up something useful

[MalignantMouse]

after i JD a sagat c.fp it seems that little is guaranteed if i'm too far away. that poke has nice reach so if it just nips you, perhaps, only a super is guaranteed. so i guess for that JD c.fp and then do c.short, tiger knee or whatever, you'd have to be close enough for the c.short to connect, but i dunno how many sagats will try to c.fp you when they're close enough for c.short to connect.

also, sagat, vs. sagat...if one sagat JDs a c.fierce, it seems he can't c.fierce back fast enough. i suppose if he's in c.fwd range, he could c.fwd back...does anyone know if c.rh will be fast enough? that'd be nice...

[FMJaguar]

After JD'ing a C.fierce, nothing sagat has will connect. This was tested on training mode, not by using all guard, but by recording the sequence ub,land,c.fierce, hold DB. The jump is just so i can time the JD properly, playing as the other person. After JDing the stick was left in neutral (or down for crouching moves) to make sure there was no stun other than JD stun. A jab at blank range doesn't even work. Supers haven't worked either, the only thing i'm not sure about is the QCBx2+k, cause i was on a pad and couldn't get it out with the proper timing. Other characters have faster jabs i believe will connect, but not too much, i will test more.

However, JD'ing a S.fierce lets sagat use either short, or either jab. JD'ing both hits of s.short lets sagat s/c.short. Also with kyo, JD a S.Fierce, then s.strong, qcf+short(2 hits), lvl 3. The strong needs to be timed to hit, but it's more than worth it. I can't quite remember the other one cause i had to leave, but i believe it was JD a Blanka C.fierce, c.strong XX jab chain.

After testing JDs i am starting to think they are a better implementation than parries. They let you counter attack, but your opponent has to make a mistake beyond "You Pressed a Button". I still hate the K meter, but i think i like JDs.

Try these for yourself and see what you get.

[nakedjackson]

Who are the people that totally and completely benefit from K-Groove? My team is Geese and Ryo, and i usually just random the third person because i can't find anyone else fun to play as in K Groove. Please Help!

[FMJaguar]

Originally posted by nakedjackson
Who are the people that totally and completely benefit from K-Groove? My team is Geese and Ryo, and i usually just random the third person because i can't find anyone else fun to play as in K Groove. Please Help!

The meter benefits everyone, the JDs depend on who your playing, for instance with JD, kyo can fight blanka in K/P/A, but not C/N/S. The bottom line is what system advantages give you the best shot at winning, if your plan is to use RC Blanka, then your not gonna pick K, if your plan is turtle blanka with random super, then K might be a good idea. Its not generally about being aggresive or not, that was just one example.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Originally posted by FMJaguar


The meter benefits everyone, the JDs depend on who your playing, for instance with JD, kyo can fight blanka in K/P/A, but not C/N/S. The bottom line is what system advantages give you the best shot at winning, if your plan is to use RC Blanka, then your not gonna pick K, if your plan is turtle blanka with random super, then K might be a good idea. Its not generally about being aggresive or not, that was just one example.

its just about f'in impossible to have a gameplan of turtling with blanka in k-groove. people can get around his small hop straight up and fierce punch, vertical ball, c.fp, so i mean he can't really turtle that well without RC or a super to sit on....and k-groove is about being agressive, u only turtle when u have GREAT opportunity to turtle, which is like....25%....basically u can't abuse turtling in k-groove and shouldn't because its rushdown is TOO good.

btw..."if your plan is turtle blanka with random super" your going to lose in k-groove.

[Tanion]

^^^ People that excel in K-groove ^^^

Rock - Counters and he just does more damage in K than in other grooves. He is good at R1... you don't really need him at R2.

Yama - Jesus christ... just about everything he does gives him rage. Double Return and his Yama Counter [what is he saying when he is doing that counter?] give him free rage meter and are good attacks if you don't abuse them. He is awesome at R2.

Eagle - His autoguards give him free rage meter too. His supers can be comboed with a s.MK I think... so they are not that hard to combo. He has good range and priority with them uhh beatin' sticks. o_O; He is good at R1.

Geese - Guard Crush, Guard Crush, Guard Crush! When he is raged his normals do more damage AND more guard damage. His supers are kinda hard to do but i THINK you can combo a s.mp into the deadly rave. I don't know if countering super moves give you rage meter. Never really noticed. He rapes opponents at R2.

Ken - His hurricane kick super does oodles of damage in K-groove. Plus i think if you JD a jump in... that gives you a free dragon punch. Ken's fierce DP has a lot of priority so you might snuff just about anything minus level 3 supers.

Zangief - Gief owns in K-groove. A couple of raged SPD or double suplexes is pretty much the same thing as a FAB. Plus now Gief can rush because he has run! Sure it might be a pretty slow run... at least he won't be slowly lariating his way to his opponents. He is downright scary at R2. He is ``ok`` at R1.

Chang - A lot of people think that Chang sucks but he doesn't! He is pretty damaging in K-groove because K-groove gives what Chang what needs... Run and Just Defense. So fireballs can kiss their arse good bye because he will own projectiles for free. Also his autoguard gives him free rage meter. I recommend that you use his weak version of the autoguard because sometimes the medium and fierce version miss close opponents. Oh and don't use his Choi super... it has ALOT of start-up while Chang's rushing super does a lot more damage. He does alright in R1 but if you want deal a lot and absorb a lot of damage go R2.

Raiden - I thought his charging attack would give him rage but it gives him invincibility [can't get raged when your invincible... damn =/] oh well. He owns jump in's [of course when he JD's] you just Giant bomb their ass. With JD, he can get raged and a little bit of life back which is good since most of his moves are hard to hit on quick opponents so when you do get raged... at least you'll be doing great damage. He is best at R2... he barely gets the job done at R1 IMO.

E. Honda - ``What? Are you kidding me? But I need to RC his headbutts!`` Sure RC headbutts are nice... but they are somewhat difficult to due every freaking time. But he does ALOT of damage when he is raged. Plus he can own jump ins too since he has a 360 throw of his own. He is pretty awesome at R2 but he can do well at R1.

Cammy - Despite[!] that she has horrible stamina, she is a dangerous foe in K-groove. She does very good damage when rage and since she is quick, it's going to rack up very fast. But IMHO... she does oodles better when she is at R2 or better. She doesn't cut it when she is at R1 in K-groove.

Nakoruru - Another person with terrible stamina but once she gets raged... holy crap it's like... ``where did my life go!?`` Her speed really helps her out when she gets raged and her sliding attacks are really good if you don't abuse them. She does good at R1 but she is doesn't seem THAT strong at R2 for some reason.

Rugal - a K-groove Godpress at any ratio.... HURTS LIKE HELL. He has good stamina so he will be able to get raged twice per round and he has two good anti-airs... the genocide counter and his s.RK. He has two good projectiles and a bootleg air attack. He is great at R2 but he is quite efficient as R1.

Haohmaru - I think he is pretty good at K-groove. He may not have the best stamina but he will be able to get raged twice a round if you JD enough. I don't know... he doesn't really stand out as much in other grooves than K-groove. Use his s.hp SPARINGLY... sure it does about 2800+ damage but the lag is not nice. But a jump-in comboed into his super moon crescent slash does uber damage. He does well at R1 but he is actually very good at R4. A simple mistake from an opponent can mean the end for them with a s.hp.

*** People that are not ``that good in K-groove`` ***

- Iori, Athena, Benimaru, Kim, King, Yuri, Mai, Blanka -

Rolling whores. This characters have really good rolls [maybe except for blanka but his RC blanka balls are really good... too good] and some of them depend on them and since K-groove doesn't have rolling... this characters tend to do better with rolling grooves.

- M. Bison, Chun li, Rolento -

A groove whores. I rarely see this characters in any other groove.

- Todo, Ryu, Vega, Sagat, Akuma -

Meter whores. This characters tend to lean toward grooves that can be able to hold meter indefintenly [C, A, P, N] because their supers do very good damage and actually make their opponents become more cautious when they attack. No one likes getting a Shinryuken or a lvl3 Tiger raid up their ass.

- Morrigan and Yun -

N-groove whores. Sometimes I see them in A-groove but not much. There is something about N-groove that brings the best out of this characters cuz you have roll and run. Also since this characters don't benefit MUCH from other grooves either. Even though their rolls suck, RC Shadowblades and RC Yun's dashing punch can be quite annoying. Plus they need to have supers handy since most of their supers can be comboed. K-groove puts a restriction on that since you only have about 18 seconds to use up your meter.

~~K-groove analysis~~

Basically... K-groove is a awesome groove but it's not for everyone. It leans towards super-aggressive characters as well characters that you are fighting that are super-aggressive. So basically if your character....

+ Has counters [Geese and Yama's Counters]
+ Is super-aggressive [Cammy and Nakoruru]
+ Has good defensive moves [Ken's DP and Eagle's Autoguards]
+ Instant command throws [Gief's SPD and Raiden's Giant Bomb]
+ Damaging and Quick supers [Rock's Shine Knuckle]

Then K-groove is for you! But if your character don't have this attributes... they tend to lean toward other grooves.

-C groove-

+ Rolling whores [Iori]
+ Need to hold super indefintely [Sagat]
+ Are super-defensive [Dhalsim]

-A groove-

+ Well... they have godly custom combos [Bison and Rolento]
+ Rolling whores [Kim]
+ Have ``good`` level 1 supers [Morrigan and Yun]

-P groove-

+ Good Parrying Skills [Player skill dependent]
+ Don't need to have super meter to be effective [Blanka]


-S groove-

+ Dodging whores [Player's style]
+ Have ``good`` level 1 supers [Ryu]

-N groove-

+ Running and Rolling Whores [Morrigan, Akuma, Sakura]
+ Good level 1+3 supers [Ryu and Sagat]

##Conclusion##

I know there are some characters that I am missing [like Dan, Vice, Hibiki, Maki, Guile, Joe] is because I don't know how to play them efficiently as characters themselves. Plus I havn't experimented them in other grooves so I would know who would do well in what groove. Well this is mostly what I think are good characters in K-groove.

[pain]

I use both Blanka and Chun Li in K. Honestly though, Blanka can be used in any groove well; K is good for him because it has small jump and run which is all you really need to play Blanka. His roll sucks anyway so you're just losing roll cancel (it's nice to have, but you don't NEED it to win). As for Chun-li, I admit N and A are better for her because she's got a good roll, easy CC, or stocks to burn on her b&bXXsuper, but I do fine in K.

[pain]

Originally posted by nakedjackson
Who are the people that totally and completely benefit from K-Groove? My team is Geese and Ryo, and i usually just random the third person because i can't find anyone else fun to play as in K Groove. Please Help!

Sagat!!!!

[HeaT]

Tanion...im sorry but vega should not belong in a groove...Vega is WAAAAAAAAAY good in k groove...

im outi

Roberth

[FMJaguar]

its just about f'in impossible to have a gameplan of turtling with blanka in k-groove. people can get around his small hop straight up and fierce punch, vertical ball, c.fp, so i mean he can't really turtle that well without RC or a super to sit on....and k-groove is about being agressive, u only turtle when u have GREAT opportunity to turtle, which is like....25%....basically u can't abuse turtling in k-groove and shouldn't because its rushdown is TOO good.


This overgeneralization kills me lol, 'k-groove is about being aggressive'. WTF is that supposed to mean, do grooves increase speed now? FBs are faster in 2x faster K than in N? From a systems perspective, P is more aggressive, as you'll see:

For instance a few posts ago i mentioned that i couldn't find a move to retailiate after a JD'ed Sagat C.fierce (playing as Sagat). So as soon as my opponent gets an oppourtunity to use c.fierce, he can freely. I have to stop my offense to react, it is possible to counter the fierce and gain control, but the point is that I lost the initiative.

In P there is no such thing, anytime i believe there will be a attack, i simply tap d or f, and continue the offense, if there was an attack, I get back in for free, if there wasn't, no loss. If i was in N/C/A, I RC the next special just in case.

Add to that the fact that K's super bar doesn't increase with offense, only by defense. Are you also saying that its more aggressive to run into moves than to attack your opponent?

btw..."if your plan is turtle blanka with random super" your going to lose in k-groove.


Probably, but by then it'll mean 3rd place prize instead of 1st, i can accept that. This post wasn't about me anyway, it's supposed to be helping people who are developing their gameplans. I fail to see how "Your way sucks, my way is aggressive and better so change whatever your doing" is going to help anyone.

Tanion - Only C,A,N have roll, but you seperate it into a table, and state that those grooves are for 'rolling whores', which means the same thing. You've written a lot, but most of it seems to say is 'use K groove if it benefits you', or 'your moves do more in K-groove'.

I haven't seen many people address specifics, either we're over theorizing about counters or saying 'Use X, but don't abuse it, but only use it if it benefits you and your opponent is not expecting it'... sometimes i think we just post to watch ourselves type, i'm guilty of this as well. But through an hour of testing i was able to create several different gameplans around what i can and can't JD vs top chars. Afro was right (even tho you can't short a c.fierce :) ) if were going to talk strategy, we gotta go into the details. I'm sure if half the people with DCs spent a little time on practical things instead of combo movies we would stomp Japan in SBO.

[nakedjackson]

oooooooh, a pan-pacific Battle! A Battle opera even! Anyhow, FMJ does have a point about move specific JD options and other 'relevant' stuff. But i do thank tanion for his general breakdown of the K-Groove chars. Also, isn't rushdown part of general K straT?

[rallykupo]

Dude, mroe then half of what you said is completely wrong.

First of all - Rugal and Eagle excel in C groove or A groove because they have quick ass (but still unabuseable) rolls and they have very very strong customs and cancels.

Iori, Benimaru, Athena (especially), Kim, Mai, and Blanka are all very good characters to be used in K.

Bison and Rolento are not rolling whores and either are Akuma and Sakura. Rolento's is slow with shitting recovery and frankly, who ever needs to roll with Rolento needs to pick a new character. Bisons is quick, but with all of his moves and abilities, rolling doesn't have to part of his game. Rolling whores would be Iori, Rugal, and Kim. Kyo's roll can be effective too, it might be slow, but there is no recovery at all.

I don't know where the fuck you play, but Vega, Ryu, and Sagat do not belong in A groove. Vega's most damaging custom does about 4-5000 and you have to in the corner to even activate cc. Sagat and Ryu both deserve grooves where they can run and dish out level 3, more along the lines of N or K.

Morrigan is a A groove whore, her best custom does about 8400. Bison is also another and if you don't know about his custom, then you are dumber then i think.

N groove whores would be Sagat, Ryu, Akuma, - just to name a few...

Morrigan and Yun do not have good level one supers. For both of them, their level ones have way too much lag. Good level ones would be Mai, Bison, Ken, Blanka, and more...

Sagat does not need to hold his level 3super to be effective, his c.fp alone is effective enough. Thats why u use him N, or K, or even P.

Oh and if you are in P groove, well you really don't need that level 3 super to win for the reason being that you are parrying!!!

[Alphastorm]

Tanion is wrong and so are you. He stated what he thought was good for those grooves. Just his opinion. No need to lash out on someone like that.

Originally posted by rallykupo

I don't know where the fuck you play, but Vega, Ryu, and Sagat do not belong in A groove. Vega's most damaging custom does about 4-5000 and you have to in the corner to even activate cc. Sagat and Ryu both deserve grooves where they can run and dish out level 3, more along the lines of N or K.



Vega's CC does not need to start in the corner. He can activate anywhere. I'm sure there were more flaws in your post but, I'm not gonna bother. So stop calling someone a newbie cause you're probably not that much better than him.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

i didn't feel like quoting everything FM said, because i don't disagree with him that much. But I do disagree with having turtling as your gameplan in k-groove.

why you ask? wut does k-groove do that allows you to turtle better than most grooves? you can't sit on a super!!!! ur guard doesn't take too much to break. and JD doesn't help ur turtling much, if it does i would like to know how it really helps turtling.

why choose rushdown as your gameplan? your got ur small hop options, which always helps. not that this should happen alot, but if you run into a anti-rushdown poke, ur gain meter. AND JD!!!! it is geared to aid in rushdown, it isn't a parry at all, but it give u vital frame advantage to BEGIN rushing down, or JD then go for a knockdown somehow (to either try a cross up combo, small jump land low attack, small jump land throw, small jump +attack, etc...mind games). also by rushing down u can make good use of ur super in k-groove, because ur attacking, and making them make a mistake such as roll into a combo--super, or crack their guard into a super, or you don't necessarily have to use ur super to make use of the rage meter. your THROWS TAKE AWAY A SHITLOAD WHILE RAGED. if you land two throws its just about as good as a super.

now...i explained how come i think rushdown is better, explain to me how to turtle in k-groove [if you can i would honestly like to know, because i would incorporate it into my game a little, i just haven't found a good way to turtle, unless it is with rock, but even then i only turtle for a lil bit (such as like 5 to 8 seconds at a time unless im in no position to go attack)]

[Alphastorm]

He meant turtling in K groove when you are not raged. If you can JD well thru turtling then I see no reason not to. However, when you do get raged, I suggest rush down otherwise you're just wasting your meter. Unless your opponent continues doing risky moves, then go ahead and sit back and counter with your super.

I don't recommend turtling in K. It is for rushdown. That's why certain characters like vega aren't very good in that groove.

[dc_guru]

umm... Balrog is VERY good in K-groove... he can turtle if the opponent is rushing him and gain lots of meter and counter well out of JDs and he can rushdown with run/small jump and JD backing him up..i'd say his best or one of his best grooves

PS. i mean claw vega.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Originally posted by dc_guru
umm... Balrog is VERY good in K-groove... he can turtle if the opponent is rushing him and gain lots of meter and counter well out of JDs and he can rushdown with run/small jump and JD backing him up..i'd say his best or one of his best grooves

PS. i mean claw vega.

at least somebody posting knows their things. please...for future reference to people who don't know wut they are talking about....if u get an inclination you don't know wut ur talkin about....please don't post....just do like i do when i don't know something....read

[Joe Fry]

I can think of only one situation to turtle in K:
You have used your super (almost no bar), you are in a situation where you are about to lose (less than 20% health), and your oponent wants/needs life back from time, so he is willing to be offensive.

In that situation you can force them to come to you, as any chip attempt is easily JDed. Basicly if your oponent isn't content with winning by time, turtle your last pixel of life to hell. Its super funny when you get back a quarter of life JDing and eventualy super them, when you were clearly loseing.

But, as I said, this only works against those who are not willing to sit across the screen and take a time win.

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by FMJaguar


This overgeneralization kills me lol, 'k-groove is about being aggressive'. WTF is that supposed to mean, do grooves increase speed now? FBs are faster in 2x faster K than in N? From a systems perspective, P is more aggressive, as you'll see:

For instance a few posts ago i mentioned that i couldn't find a move to retailiate after a JD'ed Sagat C.fierce (playing as Sagat). So as soon as my opponent gets an oppourtunity to use c.fierce, he can freely. I have to stop my offense to react, it is possible to counter the fierce and gain control, but the point is that I lost the initiative.

In P there is no such thing, anytime i believe there will be a attack, i simply tap d or f, and continue the offense, if there was an attack, I get back in for free, if there wasn't, no loss. If i was in N/C/A, I RC the next special just in case.

Add to that the fact that K's super bar doesn't increase with offense, only by defense. Are you also saying that its more aggressive to run into moves than to attack your opponent?


This is a misconception. While you gain Ikari meter by Just Defending, what else gives you meter? Being hit. Why are you being hit? Because you aren't defending.

Implications of K Groove give away that's it's more aggressive than Defensive. First, Running is combo oriented and pressure oriented, as opposed to Dash which is mind games and control oriented. You don't see Shoto rushdown in a Dash groove. Also, the nature of the Ikari Meter is very aggressive - you get a 35% *attack* bonus with a time limit on your meter. What good is a 35% attack bonus if you're not being aggressive? Moreover, what good is a meter that you can't sit on if you're playing defensive?

P Groove is completely reactionary. They do something, you do something. that's the only way you gain meter. You can sit on the meter. Dash allows more often throws than combos. Just Defending is a bonus for having defended, because you're theoretically supposed to be attacking a majority of time, which is why you get rewarded for being hit because you're being rewarded for being aggressive.

My best example is Morrigan. P and K Groove Morrigan are completely different, because I play both. You don't play one like the other. P Morrigan pokes, command throws, and corner traps, trying to cross up when she can, punishing with chains when she can. She sits alot and wait for opportunity. K Morrigan creates opportunity with aggression. Fly in hit, poke fly poke, cross up chain, super (that was really generalized but you get the idea). Moreover, with her low vitality, she's rewarded with a Level 3 super and 35% offense bonus for being hit/Just Defending. That's even more incentive for aggression.

Just my two cents.

[Tanion]

Mummy-B: I'm trying to learn how to use Morrigan because I just love to sneak in her command throw after a JD [either from a jump-in or otherwise]. But for me... she always seems to just die after she finished getting raged. Where I play, there is a lot of A-groove Bison's and Rolento's and a bunch of blanka players. Oh yeah, you are always good at playing Nakoruru in K-groove too right? What kind of strats do you use against your opponents when you play them? Also... which one do you think does better against a ``top-tier`` character? [Blanka... Sagat... etc]

[FMJaguar]

This is a misconception. While you gain Ikari meter by Just Defending, what else gives you meter? Being hit. Why are you being hit? Because you aren't defending.


The fact is that if you aren't perfect, your going to get hit, and the game doesn't care whether you turtled or attacked to get hit, it gives you the same meter. So that aspect is even among turtles and agressors. The only difference is that in other grooves you *literally* build more meter for attacking than getting hit, so by definition they reward attackers moreso than defenders.

Implications of K Groove give away that's it's more aggressive than Defensive. First, Running is combo oriented and pressure oriented, as opposed to Dash which is mind games and control oriented. You don't see Shoto rushdown in a Dash groove.

Are 'mind games and control' the new buzzwords of the time? Not only that, but now we're quantifing it as well lol, now you have *more* mind games and *less* mind games. Damn! how did we ever have combos and pressure and mind games without running and K groove! i don't think i can ever play alpha again :(.

Also, the nature of the Ikari Meter is very aggressive - you get a 35% *attack* bonus with a time limit on your meter. What good is a 35% attack bonus if you're not being aggressive? Moreover, what good is a meter that you can't sit on if you're playing defensive?

Even the worst turtles will still attack once or twice before that long ass timer expires, if they hit, it justifies all that turtling they did to get the meter plus some. I don't think it's possible to even do 4000 damage without raging an empty meter anyway. Which means 3 throws or a super, according to you, that must mean i'm being aggressive. To me, it means being not totally stupid, of course they have to execute some minimal attack to win.

Who gives a damn about a timer anyway, that's a long ass time, you can go raged, get hit with a full custom, and still land your own super back.

P Groove is completely reactionary. They do something, you do something. that's the only way you gain meter. You can sit on the meter. Dash allows more often throws than combos. Just Defending is a bonus for having defended, because you're theoretically supposed to be attacking a majority of time, which is why you get rewarded for being hit because you're being rewarded for being aggressive.


Damn your P groove sucks if parrying is the only way to get meter, maybe your machine is broken, the P groove i know of says: "Meter gains 1.1 points on a hit, 0.4 on a guard, 0.1 when attack is missed."

That whole paragraph is fluff. Getting hit = being aggressive? WTF, so if i go perfect someone, i'm not aggressive, shit that is news to me. I thought being aggressive was about being aggressive, not about all this other bullshit you guys make up. Theoretical play is only good if IT MAKES SENSE.

This whole thread is bullshit now anyway. I found more useful K groove tips in a half hour on my own than in 2 weeks in this thread. The only good thing was Cole posting his counter that doesn't work, because it drove me to test it myself.

[MalignantMouse]

Originally posted by Mummy-B



P Groove is completely reactionary. They do something, you do something. that's the only way you gain meter.



when you parry on reaction, yes you are often playing defensively. parrying a fireball would be considered a defensive move, unless you're close enough to nail them back.

parrying in general is not defensive, in my opinion. people don't play P groove to parry fireballs from across the screen to avoid chip and guard damage. they often use it in anticipation at point blank range, like in 3s. this is an aggressive style. every play soul calibur? parrying is kinda like a GI in SC...it should be used as an aggressive measure.

this should be a strat thread anyway. all this talk of "being aggressive" or whatever isn't really strat i don't think. if i'm looking for K groove strats and i see a page on whether or not K groove is an aggressive groove, or what chars are good in OTHER grooves, it doesn't tell me much.

[HeaT]

dude FMjaguar your missing the point...

"The fact is that if you aren't perfect, your going to get hit, and the game doesn't care whether you turtled or attacked to get hit, it gives you the same meter. So that aspect is even among turtles and agressors. The only difference is that in other grooves you *literally* build more meter for attacking than getting hit, so by definition they reward attackers moreso than defenders. "


the point he was trying to make is you will get hit MORE if you are aggressive rather than defensive...shit if you really good defensively you aint going to get hit and block everything...so if you get hit MORE when you are agressive, your bar will go up...

i hit on this earlier in the thread...when your k lights up you do more damage and defense increases...if this isnt incentive to rushdown i dont know what is...if you rushdown and trade all day you will STILL end up doing way more damage to your opponenet because of your bonus from k...(this isnt theory its fact) yes you could turtle and hit an opponent once or twice but so what, if you rushdown you could have hit him like 6-7 times and even opened up a mistake from all the pressure your applying then hit them with super...when you turtle all you do is wait for your opponent to make mistake and if he doesnt your not going to super...

anyone can play k groove how they want turtle or aggressive it doesnt matter but one COULD be more beneficial the other way...



on the issue about p groove, i dont neccessarily think that p groove is ALL reaction orientated...there is A LOT of ways to bait out parries and option selecting parries where it leaves you safe (except maybe from throws)...i mean your reacting to their moves but like if you bait out parries your almost expecting it to come out and if you option selected it dont matter if it comes out or not...example...your a shoto ryu or something, your hovering over opponents body on his get up you do c.lp c.lp (then you stop the combo hoping that he throws out a low poke to stop your pokes if it dont combo or if you try to walk up and throw) pause, d (this is for the parry) if no parry you can even do 2 downs, and on the 2nd down you do down+mk into fireball or super fireball IF your mk hits or if you parried followed by c.mk then super...

so there are set ups for it where its not entirely reaction...

oh and ive seen ken in a groove be VERY VERY agressive...mainly cause his dash is small and quick and it almost looks like a run...so its possible...

im outi

Roberth

[FMJaguar]

the point he was trying to make is you will get hit MORE if you are aggressive rather than defensive...shit if you really good defensively you aint going to get hit and block everything...so if you get hit MORE when you are agressive, your bar will go up...


Getting hit still causes you to take damage right? So getting hit != being aggressive, getting hit = losing. I'd love to play ppl that think like that "Look at me run into all this shit, i'm aggressive! Wait, why is my life bar draining, oh nooooo". This is a misinterpretation, with aggression your not *afraid* to get hit because you force your opponent to break your offense just to hit you, nowhere have i seen that your supposed to get hit MORE, that is crazy.

anyone can play k groove how they want turtle or aggressive it doesnt matter but one COULD be more beneficial the other way...

That is all i'm saying. However this difference is up to the player. The facts state that K gains more from being careless, which i now see to most people means offense, maybe that's why a lot of people have problems, they are associating offense with carelessness.

[HeaT]

"Getting hit still causes you to take damage right? So getting hit != being aggressive, getting hit = losing. I'd love to play ppl that think like that "Look at me run into all this shit, i'm aggressive! Wait, why is my life bar draining, oh nooooo". This is a misinterpretation, with aggression your not *afraid* to get hit because you force your opponent to break your offense just to hit you, nowhere have i seen that your supposed to get hit MORE, that is crazy."

the thing is, it doesnt necessarly mean that your just going to fuckign run in and get hit...when you apply pressure your normally going be doing damage, when playing very agressive your normally going to be doing damage, so if they break your offense by trading with you or hitting you it doesnt really matter, you get bar, match is reset and you go again...

theres also a difference between reckless rushdown and smart rushdown...not all rushdown is reckless and knowning when to rushdown is also a key...

im outi

Roberth

[Mummy-B]

You know, it sucks when the body of your post dissapears.

Originally posted by FMJaguar

The fact is that if you aren't perfect, your going to get hit, and the game doesn't care whether you turtled or attacked to get hit, it gives you the same meter. So that aspect is even among turtles and agressors. The only difference is that in other grooves you *literally* build more meter for attacking than getting hit, so by definition they reward attackers moreso than defenders.



So... what?

Remember that K Groove allows you to benefit more from getting hit than any other Groove.

Now, I'll address everything real soon.


Are 'mind games and control' the new buzzwords of the time? Not only that, but now we're quantifing it as well lol, now you have *more* mind games and *less* mind games. Damn! how did we ever have combos and pressure and mind games without running and K groove! i don't think i can ever play alpha again :(.


Hum. Well, I do recall controlling the momentum of the match as a form of control. Oh wait, look over there, there is actually a form of word "control" in there already. P Groove is supposed to effectively change the momentum of the match in your favor; thus, if you are attacking me and I Parry you and knock you down, I now control momentum of the game and you don't. Do you have a problem with this definition of control? Let's Just Defend something. Heck, let's do the SBK as a good example. Can't really do much about that can you? You can JD all day. They will still have momentum. Parry? Shit I can I Parry a ROLL CANCELLED SBK once and then COMMAND COUNTER it. Guess who has "control" now?

Mind games. Well let's see. Running. Run doesn't stop immediately. As a matter of fact, I can hit you before to stop Running and can JD, or even block (but JD is faster so whatever). You can't throw me by Running up either. The safest way to end a Run is with a normal (whiffed or hit), or a special like a DP or something. Maybe a command throw if you're quick - I would say Morrigan since hers would be the easiest (it's hcb, so you start from where you left off inputting the Run command), but she can't command throw in the air very well. So your options are left with Running and trying to land a combo, Running and whiffing a normal to stop, Running and trying to hit a normal (like Shoto rushdown), Running into a speical, Running into a short jump/normal jump. I don't even count running into a Super, but you could I guess. Can't do it as well as with a Dash, because I'll land a Dash -> Level 3 consistently, have in tourney play.

Dash allows for a Dash in combo, poke, throw, command throw, special, super, short jump, and P Groove you can bait a Parry but that's brave. I got less to worry about when you Run. That means you're easier to anticipate. that means you have less ways to fake me out. I will even go out on a limb and say that you have less Mind Games (completely putting aside individual character comparisions).


Even the worst turtles will still attack once or twice before that long ass timer expires, if they hit, it justifies all that turtling they did to get the meter plus some. I don't think it's possible to even do 4000 damage without raging an empty meter anyway. Which means 3 throws or a super, according to you, that must mean i'm being aggressive. To me, it means being not totally stupid, of course they have to execute some minimal attack to win.

Who gives a damn about a timer anyway, that's a long ass time, you can go raged, get hit with a full custom, and still land your own super back.


What an ignorant statement.

So, you're saying that it's perfectly fine for you, with 35% damage bonus and an expiring Level 3 gauge to sit there and wait for me to come to you? You must be out of your mind. I'm sorry, but when I see a full Ikari Meter, I run the fuck away. If you are going to sit there while I back off and you lose a Level 3 and 35% damage bonus, hey, I'm alright with that, be my guest.

And the CC example was ridiculous. Something that would have made sense is blocking a custom and finding a hole at the end and hitting them with a super. Unless you're referring to playing a scrub to doesn't block at all when you can still Level 3 super him.


Damn your P groove sucks if parrying is the only way to get meter, maybe your machine is broken, the P groove i know of says: "Meter gains 1.1 points on a hit, 0.4 on a guard, 0.1 when attack is missed."

That whole paragraph is fluff. Getting hit = being aggressive? WTF, so if i go perfect someone, i'm not aggressive, shit that is news to me. I thought being aggressive was about being aggressive, not about all this other bullshit you guys make up. Theoretical play is only good if IT MAKES SENSE.


Hmm. Well, let's go quote the CvS2 Knowledge Base, the line after yours:
Meter also rises when Parrying,...

Now, if you go into Training Mode and test this out, Parry gains more meter than a block. Which means the only thing that gives it more meter is landing a hit. And what do you do after a Parry? HOLY SHIT! You LAND A HIT! :eek:

Now then, as for your ignorance on aggression. I'm sure you're familiar with MvC2. Know Storm right? Know Magneto? Good. Now, Runaway Storm and Rushdown Magneto (is there any OTHER way to play him?). Here Storm is, super jumping, flying, hitting fierce to build meter, making an annoying ass moaning sound like she's being raped with a pole, and Hailstorming you. Here is Magneto, trying to catch her, getting all sorts of chip damage, while the King of Rushdown is trying in all futility to catch her. Magneto can't win. Why? BECAUSE HE CAN'T HIT HER. Why? BECAUSE THE CRAZY BITCH IS RUNNING AWAY as opposed to GOING IN TRYING TO HIT HIM LEAVING HERSELF OPEN TO BE ATTACKED. Guess what? The Runaway Storms I know beat Magneto by BAITING RUSHDOWN and HITTING HIM WHILE HE'S BEING AGGRESSIVE LEAVING AN OPENING.

Understand now? Last I checked, if I'm all the way across the screen, holding back, picking my ass, I don't get hit with a DP. But if I Jump in roundhouse trying to get a hit in being aggressive, I get DPed. *gasp* DAMAGE. How did this HAPPEN?!?!?!?

Well, when you are more aggressive, you leave yourself a higher chance of being retaliated against. Because of this, as you are more aggressive, the chances of taking damage go up. Now remember the first reply I did, about how K Groove rewards you for being hit the most? Yeeeeeah it's all coming together now isn't it? I don't know any other Groove that give you a full meter after being nailed with a Level 2 Super Cancel, Level 3, or CC.

Now, why don't you use that high and mighty ego of yours to push your intellect a little higher to decipher a meaning of a post, as opposed to reading everything literally on the surface then acting like a jackass know-it-all. If you are really that high and mighty, do what the other top players do here: not post.


This whole thread is bullshit now anyway. I found more useful K groove tips in a half hour on my own than in 2 weeks in this thread. The only good thing was Cole posting his counter that doesn't work, because it drove me to test it myself.

See above.

[FMJaguar]

Originally posted by Mummy-B
You know, it sucks when the body of your post dissapears.

You won't like this reply then.

So, you're saying that it's perfectly fine for you, with 35% damage bonus and an expiring Level 3 gauge to sit there and wait for me to come to you? You must be out of your mind. I'm sorry, but when I see a full Ikari Meter, I run the fuck away.


The point of turtling is not to sit there and do nothing, you can't win that way. EVERY turtle has to attack to win, turtles just do it only when it's overwhelmingly in their favor to, and don't otherwise. Go back to Alpha 3, remember runaway vega? What did he do with a full VC meter? that's right, land it! Even then it rarely took him half as long as a K groove meter to land it. If you abandon your gameplan to runaway because of the meter, then the turtling portion of the game has succeded. Now they have the advantage PLUS you have just changed your gameplan PLUS damage boost. If your a turtle, you would still attack then, but it doesn't label you aggressive to do so.

And the CC example was ridiculous. Something that would havemade sense is blocking a custom and finding a hole at the end and hitting them with a super. Unless you're referring to playing a scrub to doesn't block at all when you can still Level 3 super him.

The point of the example was to demonstrate how long the K groove meter is, and that even in the WORST case (getting hit by a full A combo), the timer still leaves you some time to get even.

Understand now? Last I checked, if I'm all the way across the screen, holding back, picking my ass, I don't get hit with a DP. But if I Jump in roundhouse trying to get a hit in being aggressive, I get DPed. *gasp* DAMAGE. How did this HAPPEN?!?!?!?

You didn't get hit because you were aggressive, you got hit cause you made a bad choice (jumping in when i was prepared to DP a jumpin). This is ridiculous, your comparing a point blank jumpin to a across the screen turtle, and saying "LOOK, aggression = getting hit, OMG!!!". Compare apples to apples for once, across the screen, turtling and agression aren't going to get hit as much, point blank, aggression can be attacked, and blocking can be thrown, both styles can and will take damage. Eventually both will need to learn to take the least amount of damage possible, which is my point.

Well, when you are more aggressive, you leave yourself a higher chance of being retaliated against. Because of this, as you are more aggressive, the chances of taking damage go up.

Again, your assuming that aggression = playing carelessly. SF is based on taking less damage than your opponent, risk of damage != damage. I'm saying that good aggressors and good turtles take the same amount of damage, bad aggressors take more damage than good aggressors, bad turtles take more damage than good turtles. The rest of your post doesn't further the issue beyond this, so there is no need to reply to it.

[HeaT]

"The point of turtling is not to sit there and do nothing, you can't win that way. EVERY turtle has to attack to win, turtles just do it only when it's overwhelmingly in their favor to, and don't otherwise. Go back to Alpha 3, remember runaway vega? What did he do with a full VC meter? that's right, land it! Even then it rarely took him half as long as a K groove meter to land it. If you abandon your gameplan to runaway because of the meter, then the turtling portion of the game has succeded. Now they have the advantage PLUS you have just changed your gameplan PLUS damage boost. If your a turtle, you would still attack then, but it doesn't label you aggressive to do so."

i dont understand your example it doesnt make sense...runaway is different than turtle...you can sit on a full V bar cause it never diminishes...so no shit you will eventually land it you got all the time to sit on it...

im outi

Roberth

[Alphastorm]

Zangief K groove:

After JDing an air attack, is he always gauranteed a SPD?

[FMJaguar]

Alpha ask in the real K thread, this is K flamewar thread thx.

i dont understand your example it doesnt make sense...runaway is different than turtle...you can sit on a full V bar cause it never diminishes...so no shit you will eventually land it you got all the time to sit on it...


You can, but would you? The longer you sit on it, the less value it is on having it. With V-vega your getting damage just by activating, so in the time someone spent sitting on a V, you could have used yours, and built another 50% back up whiffing jump back kicks or throws or something. But again, it doesn't mean your not playing runaway vega anymore. Runaway is what turtles will do if you can't chase them, so they aren't that different. Again rushing or turtling doesn't mean you don't strictly pick that option, it means given an equal choice you pick that option. When aggressors aren't in a position to attack, they don't, when defenders aren't in a great position to defend, they won't.

[Alphastorm]

Originally posted by HeaT
[Byou can sit on a full V bar cause it never diminishes...so no shit you will eventually land it you got all the time to sit on it...

im outi

Roberth [/B]

No one sits on a full bar of V. turtle or not. Once you get it, activate and abuse it's power.

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by Alphastorm
Zangief K groove:

After JDing an air attack, is he always gauranteed a SPD?

AFAIK, you can still jump straight up to avoid it, ala Raging Demon style. But there are not many people that will instinctively jump straight up as soon as they land, and if they do, you would probably have enough time to Lariat them after you whiff.

[HeaT]

Originally posted by Alphastorm


No one sits on a full bar of V. turtle or not. Once you get it, activate and abuse it's power.

really why dont you explain that to danny leong (sp) he barely activates his v with akuma and still fucking good, you can even see this in the US vs japan 5 on 5...

how do you automatically just get damage by activating with vega??? thats BIG time generalization...theres so much shit you can do to stop a v...

im outi

Roberth

[Alphastorm]

Originally posted by HeaT


really why dont you explain that to danny leong (sp) he barely activates his v with akuma and still fucking good, you can even see this in the US vs japan 5 on 5...

how do you automatically just get damage by activating with vega??? thats BIG time generalization...theres so much shit you can do to stop a v...

im outi

Roberth

Most US players suck in A3. Japs will just activate. Just because he is good to you, doesn't mean he is good at all. You are the one generalizing.

Originally posted by Mummy-B


AFAIK, you can still jump straight up to avoid it, ala Raging Demon style. But there are not many people that will instinctively jump straight up as soon as they land, and if they do, you would probably have enough time to Lariat them after you whiff.

Thanks, I will test that.

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by Alphastorm
Most US players suck in A3. Japs will just activate. Just because he is good to you, doesn't mean he is good at all. You are the one generalizing.You lose here, Alphastorm. Danny Leong is one of the better A3 players. He went very well against the Japanese in the EVO A3 exhibition. Check your facts next time. And no, it's not good to "immediately activate V" if you have a full bar, especially since you start with one anyway. You have to setup the confusion VC for best results.

[FMJaguar]

Yess we're back to Alpha 3...

Anyway the point of the VC tangent was to say that meter you can sit on, isn't that much different than a meter with a long ass K timer, your still gonna use it in that time. I don't even think Danny will sit on it for longer than a full K-groove timer. In this instance, 'immediate' should refer to the length of the K timer. Dasrik posts still own tho.

[Alphastorm]

I never said immediate. I meant no one will sit on it. they will find an opening and abuse. Maybe danny isn't very good at finding those openings. Maybe he did well because his talent lies elsewhere. Whose knows, who cares. If you want to sit there and turtle with your full bar of V, be my guest.

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by FMJaguar
Your assuming that aggression = playing carelessly. SF is based on taking less damage than your opponent, risk of damage != damage. I'm saying that good aggressors and good turtles take the same amount of damage, bad aggressors take more damage than good aggressors, bad turtles take more damage than good turtles. The rest of your post doesn't further the issue beyond this, so there is no need to reply to it. [/B]

No, I didn't assume that at all.

With everything that you said in your post, that doesn't make me any less wrong. My post is still right. In principle, when you are aggressive, careless or not, your chances to take damage go up because even though you are attacking "non carelessly," you are still leaving yourself open to be retaliated against and take damage. Being carefully aggressive, or "intelligently" aggressive I suppose, lessens the chances of being outright hit out of everything, but I have yet to see a match with two equally skilled, high level players not changing the momentum of the game by halting an offensive movement.

Getting hit in P Groove doesn't reward you as much than with K. Why, because K is scrubby - if you JD you get meter, but screw it if I screw up I'll get alot of meter too? No. Because in P Groove you don't have the option of using anything to get out of hairy situations. You are not "supposed to get hit." You're supposed to Parry and retaliate.

Last I checked, CvS2 was one of the few games where the risk/reward vaule for aggression was outweighted by turtling. You don't benefit from attacking as much as turtling, the game rewards turtling moreso than attacking, in general. You're comparing it to games like Zero 3 - the risk/reward for aggression is much more beneficial than sitting back and turtling. CvS2 caters to the Sagat that will sit and crouch fierce XX Tiger Cannon you when you get close, fierce DP you when you jump, and the Blanka that will get a knockdown, Ball behind you, and RC electricity to build a meter, guard crush you, chip damage you, and sit on a Level 3 for when you come in. Zero 3 is not like that.

In any case, you've got a pretty hypocritical stance in so far as crowning yourself the SRK God of K Groove strategy and deeming this thread a flame war, when you're the first person to jump on my ass when I presented an arguement objectively and not offering anything better yourself. I gave generalized examples, and you're still not intelligent enough to read through the lines instead of barking at the surface. It is not my fault I have to connect the dots for you to see the big bright picture. The fact of the matter is, in principle, I am right. Even when I apply your "non careless aggression" filter, I am still right. You haven't said anything that makes me wrong. Until you do, keep barking, because you're doing it up an empty tree.

[FMJaguar]

My post is still right. In principle, when you are aggressive, careless or not, your chances to take damage go up because even though you are attacking "non carelessly," you are still leaving yourself open to be retaliated against and take damage.


Sorry, Rage meter does not give a fuck about whatever you just said. It cares about getting hit, which does not equal chance to get hit. End of discussion, thanks for playing.

Last I checked, CvS2 was one of the few games where the risk/reward vaule for aggression was outweighted by turtling. You don't benefit from attacking as much as turtling, the game rewards turtling moreso than attacking, in general.

Yep, i never said otherwise.

You're comparing it to games like Zero 3 - the risk/reward for aggression is much more beneficial than sitting back and turtling.

Nope, all that bullshit was to drive home that damn K-groove timer point, which noone cares about anyway now.

In any case, you've got a pretty hypocritical stance in so far as crowning yourself the SRK God of K Groove strategy and deeming this thread a flame war, when you're the first person to jump on my ass when I presented an arguement objectively and not offering anything better yourself.

Nope, never said i was god of anything, if opening my DC up for a half hour makes me a god, then my standards are way too low. I can get this level of conversation by standing near a SC2 conquest machine, i didn't know that wanting to discuss something practical and/or worthwhile was considered elitist. Of course there were people that agreed with me, you just have to wade back 6-7 pages to find it, and those people already gave up. They don't even know what the hell the topic is anymore, nor did any of it help them JD, counter after JD, use meter, or anything useful.

The only person it helped is probably some guy with no clue how to play, reading it and saying 'OK A and B characters are good in K groove and i'm supposed to 'rush down' as these internet people say', then when his ass gets handed back to him what then? more generalized bullshit? Running people around in circles until they learn to just say to hell with it and play namco?

The fact of the matter is, in principle, I am right. Even when I apply your "non careless aggression" filter, I am still right.

You can be right all you want about a point that doesn't even exist in reality. For all i care you can be the 'theoretical chance of getting hit' master of the world, enjoy. When you got something that is useful in the world of people that play K-groove, be sure to drop back in.

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by FMJaguar

Sorry, Rage meter does not give a fuck about whatever you just said. It cares about getting hit, which does not equal chance to get hit. End of discussion, thanks for playing.



Uh, that makes no sense. Chance to get hit translates to the possibility of being hit, which increases the Ikari Meter. If there's no chance to be hit while not blocking and you're not Just Defending, how does it build? Dark Jedi Mind Tricks?

[FMJaguar]

Originally posted by Mummy-B


Uh, that makes no sense. Chance to get hit translates to the possibility of being hit, which increases the Ikari Meter. If there's no chance to be hit while not blocking and you're not Just Defending, how does it build? Dark Jedi Mind Tricks?

Aggressiveness (which you have said = higher chance of being hit, which is also false but whatever), has 0 relation with amount of actual hits taken. It is entirely possible to be aggressive, and get perfected, or perfect someone, or a whole range in between. The amount taken is up to the player, there is no 'typically more' or 'sometimes less', it's totaly undetermined.

Rage/Ikari meter, rises in relation to hits/damage taken, which you just had to agree is undetermined for SF to be even worth playing.

[HeaT]

i have come to the conclusion that FMjaguar doesnt make sense...

moving on...

mummy-b go check the cvs2 akuma thread i responded to one of your posts with a question...im curious to see what you have to say about it...

im outi

Roberth

[Dr Shaboogen]

"Aggressiveness (which you have said = higher chance of being hit, which is also false but whatever), has 0 relation with amount of actual hits taken. It is entirely possible to be aggressive, and get perfected, or perfect someone, or a whole range in between. The amount taken is up to the player, there is no 'typically more' or 'sometimes less', it's totaly undetermined.

Rage/Ikari meter, rises in relation to hits/damage taken, which you just had to agree is undetermined for SF to be even worth playing."

What the hell are you talking about? Of course you have a higher chance of being hit when you are on the attack, simply because you are more often in states where you can be hit. If you throw out a d.forward, there's eve