CvS2: Inexperienced Sector

[Monkey]

I did search the forum, didn't find anything like this.


I don't really play the game much. I will play it sometimes when I get bored with MvC2 or 3s. What I have noticed though is that it’s a turtler's game more than rushing down like CvS1 was more about. (IMO, CvS1 was all about Nako cross-up's and Sonic Boom's galore...Sure, there was more to it, but I don't really care...^_^) Anyway, when I first started watching people play CvS2, it seemed like everything was about which move has more priority. I am not sure how things are now, only because I haven’t touched the game for awhile now.

Anyway, the point of this thread I guess is to touch base on the basics. Not necessarily for me, but for anyone who is trying to get into the game more. (For me, only cause X-Box Live CvS2..^_^)

Some things to talk about:

1) Are things still some what the same as they were before (as I mentioned about the more priority moves) If so, which characters moves have the most priority (besides Sagat and Blanka)?

2) Which groove(s) are dominating?

Things not to talk about:

- “How to do combos” Unless your talking about A-Groove combos, then you can I guess…^_^


-monkey

[ChunLiKasumi]

Its been like that since SF2:WW. The fact is, out prioritizing your opponent works and it can produce excellent results. For example, if you are given the choice of either blocking a super or outprioritizing it with a move of your own, which would you choose? The second one, obviously, because you get higher returns for doing so.

Blocking also works because its a way around priority. Moves that have very high priority often have lots of recovery on it to prevent it from being abused. For example, say your opponent has a move that outprioritizes all of your moves, but you note that there is substantial recovery on it. Say he pulls the move on you and you see it ahead of time. Your choices are: pull a move of your own only to get outprioritized, block and do nothing, block and nail him on his recovery, beg/whine/cry your opponent to not use that move again. Obviously option 3 is the best choice.

Now, if your opponent pulls a move that seems to have a fair bit of cheese behind it, most people are more inclined to block and try to counter attack after rather than just counter attack right away. Players often turtle at the beginning because they don't really know the game that well. As they get better, they block less and outprioritize more, if that option is available.

ChunLi

[rallykupo]

1. Athena's c.fp has more priority then Sagats c.fp. Rocks s.rh beats out almost every air attack. Most DP's have invinicbilty frames like the shotos, joe's tiger knee, and Iori. Moves like Rugals genocide does not and Ryo's uppercut doesn't either, but it has tons of priority.(+others) Honda's wp heatbutt has invincibilty frames too.

2. No groove is over powered or best, depends on who you pick. But, I would have to say that N is the best well rounded groove for just about any character because it offers the best mobility and the enhanced damage, but i would never say that it's anyone's best groove. Only problem about N is that its rather boring, it offers nothing unquie. It does have the building/breaking stock thing, but its not really that interesting. I would think that if a person can master P, then they would be unstoppable. I mean if u can parry EVERYTHING, then there isn't much that people can do against you, but i dout that there is anyone who can parry everything because being able to predict everything without being predictable yourself is quite hard to do to say the least.

[SaiYuk]

i think this question will fit in this thread, since it's sorta newbie-ish. i've played the game for so long (since a while after it came out) but never got this down.

how do you do small jumps on the arcade stick?? my rate of successfully doing a small jump is lower than my rate of successfully roll-cancelling a blanka ball on the arcade. i can do small jumps perfectly fine on controller (just tap the direction lightly... although sometimes i still tap it too lightly and the character doesnt move.. but most of the time its fine). but on the stick.... if i tap it too lightly, it doesnt move, when i tap it a *little* harder, it becomes a regular jump. :(

[FluffyXXL]

Originally posted by Monkey

Some things to talk about:

1) Are things still some what the same as they were before (as I mentioned about the more priority moves) If so, which characters moves have the most priority (besides Sagat and Blanka)?

2) Which groove(s) are dominating?

-monkey

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I don't play seriously all that much, but I do get to see some of the best Norcal players at times, so here's my viewpoint.

1.) There's a lot to this game, probably more than any other SF game thus far. It has elements of every other SF game and a lot from KOF as well.That doesn't automatically make it a good game however, but that's not the point here.

One of the major things I've noticed is that characters that score knockdowns are good. In CVS2, a lot of characters can score knockdowns off of C.Jab or C.Short attacks. Some characters use throws to score a quick knockdowns. Once you score knockdowns, you can go for cross-ups. This footsie game is always important in SF games, but CVS2 has a lot of options to deal with it, depending on groove.

To change gears, turtling only seems to be a major part of the game because some of the best characters are turtlers. Blanka (top tier character) turtles 24/7. That may be an overstatement, cuz I've seen some top level Blanka players that don't turtle, but on a more basic level people will. Once you learn to RC Electricity, and some ways to use it, Blanka's general strategy changes a lot.

If you take a look at Sagat (the other undisputed top tier character) you see a more of a rushdown type of character. He's good because he can crush a turtler's guard and fast. When he does, he makes it hurt. Complete opposite of a turtle.

2.) In all reality, N groove dominates. A lot of charcters benefit from having Run as opposed to Dash. There's very few characters that don't need Run. Rolls, specifically roll cancelling, is also useful for almost all characters. Some characters are only playable because of their RCs (Yun and Gief come to mind), and some characters just get better with RCs (think Blanka). Combine that with small jump, safe fall, counter attack, and counter roll and you've got probably the most versitile groove.

I don't think there's really much concensus as to what groove is best after that. A lot of people will say K groove. Rage is pretty good with powerful characters and as long as you are good at landing your super, you should do well. Other people would say C is next, but I don't think Air Guard is all that useful. I, myself, use A groove over C because of the damage and versitility that CCs provide in meter usage is too good to overlook. But, people still use C groove, so it can't be that bad.

The only bad groove is S groove, mostly because other grooves have better ways to do what S does, and infinite level 1 supers just isn't good. P groove is also low on the list, but theoretically, it's got potential. I saw KSK playing at EVO and he rocked for the most part. He made me think P-Cammy is definitely worthy. For P-groove to get recognition, a top player is going to have to pick it up and start placing in tourneys with it. Most people i've seen that play P doesn't play it seriously.

There's one thing in CVS2 that is really great to me. You can literally play any character you want. Because of the different groove options (a lot of it due to RC) you can play any character (except maybe Kyosuke) and do well. I think the fact that it's possible to win a tournament without Blanka and Sagat on your team means that there's a lot more to the game than a lot of people give it credit for. Just my two cents.

[GeekBoy]

Originally posted by Monkey

Some things to talk about:

1) Are things still some what the same as they were before (as I mentioned about the more priority moves) If so, which characters moves have the most priority (besides Sagat and Blanka)?

2) Which groove(s) are dominating?

-monkey [/B]

1. Almost everybody's got one normal that has a high standing for some reason, even though it might be weak, like Eagle's s.Short, I've snuffed a lot of stuff with it for some reason.

2. K/A/N no particular order.

[box]

Originally posted by GeekBoy

2. K/A/N no particular order.

I heard in Japan that N isn't dominating anymore because it doesn't have a good counter to RC's compared to the rest of the grooves. C-groove is still picked because it can air-block most RC's. Also, judging from the super battle opera qualifiers in Japan it looks like P-groove is starting to pick up a bit. S groove still sucks.

[Nelziq]

as for grooves, at least at SVGL, K and especially C are the most popular.

This seems mostly in a response to how roll canceling has changed the game there. JD and Airblock are both useful in fighting against roll-canceling opponents.

[GeekBoy]

I DID say "no particular order" for a reason. I still use N because of it's ready level 1s and 3s. K is a good groove, but IMO, if you're not adept at being able to JD that well, and just get hurt, it's not good risk/reward ratio. Sure you'll get a lvl 3, but the problem is being able to use it all the time. While you COULD get a full bar at least 2-3 times in a K groove match, JDing is sort of a must, since you'll be able to get that lost health back, especially off counter hits, which will be your double edged sword as a K groove player.

Counter hits provide a hefty chunk of meter, but also do a lot of damage. So JDing is a must when you play. Though I make it sound like I'm bashing on K groove, I'm not, I myself have played it and had a little success with it. But I've seen a lot of people who play K groove do a lot of stupid things, not rushing (have a good run/small jump game is a MUST), turtling too much. They rely heavily on their supers to do a majority of their work, which is why they lose. IMO, K groove is like P groove (without the obvious implications), the whole idea is to just do as much damage with your normals, comboing or poking, and let your supers compliment when they're available.

My own philosophy with these parry grooves = K = rushing and P = conservative. If you want a REAL turtle groove, P is the way to go, just sit there, parry what they try to do, and sit on a super which they're probably not able to block/JD/parry against.

[Monkey]

Originally posted by FluffyXXL
I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I don't play seriously all that much, but I do get to see some of the best Norcal players at times, so here's my viewpoint.

I didn't want to quote the entire post...So that will do.. ^_^

Anyway, great post for one thing. Another thing, RCing isnt allowed in tourney play right? If not, why does that make it a big part of the game? I have seen a video of it, but I'm not sure exactly how its done. I tried back when I had CvS2 for DC, but I had no success. Maybe you (or someone else) could touch base with it alittle more.

I really understand what you were talking about and I guess I'm going to have to play a lot before getting results. I remember in CvS1, it didn't take much to get "good", but this game sounds like it has a lot of depth to it. Thanks for the input. :)


-monkey

[bokchoy]

Originally posted by Monkey
I did search the forum, didn't find anything like this.


I don't really play the game much. I will play it sometimes when I get bored with MvC2 or 3s. What I have noticed though is that it’s a turtler's game more than rushing down like CvS1 was more about. (IMO, CvS1 was all about Nako cross-up's and Sonic Boom's galore...Sure, there was more to it, but I don't really care...^_^) Anyway, when I first started watching people play CvS2, it seemed like everything was about which move has more priority. I am not sure how things are now, only because I haven’t touched the game for awhile now.

Anyway, the point of this thread I guess is to touch base on the basics. Not necessarily for me, but for anyone who is trying to get into the game more. (For me, only cause X-Box Live CvS2..^_^)

Some things to talk about:

1) Are things still some what the same as they were before (as I mentioned about the more priority moves) If so, which characters moves have the most priority (besides Sagat and Blanka)?

2) Which groove(s) are dominating?

Things not to talk about:

- “How to do combos” Unless your talking about A-Groove combos, then you can I guess…^_^


-monkey

1) Priority is still the dominant aspect in this game. Blanka, Sagat, Cammy and Vega are top-tier for their priority, and Bison is top-tier for his power (and to a lesser extent, his priority). Other characters who are popular for their priority are Chun-Li, Yamazaki, Honda, while characters who are more known for their power are Rolento, Sakura and Iori. Since the advent of Roll-Cancelling, a lot has changed though. It creates exceptions the game's priority rules.

2) Again, since the advent of Roll-Cancelling, a lot has changed. It used to be N, A and C, which are the grooves that can Roll-Cancel. Now, I think it's a lot more evenly matched between all of the grooves, with the exception of S. Basically, C/A/N are used for whatever they're good for, in conjunction with RCs. N has been on the decline, mostly because Run and Small Jump have lost a bit of their value to RCs. P and K have been on the rise, because they somewhat neutralize the power of RCs. All in all, the 5 non-S grooves are a lot more balanced nowadays.

Originally posted by SaiYuk
i think this question will fit in this thread, since it's sorta newbie-ish. i've played the game for so long (since a while after it came out) but never got this down.

how do you do small jumps on the arcade stick?? my rate of successfully doing a small jump is lower than my rate of successfully roll-cancelling a blanka ball on the arcade. i can do small jumps perfectly fine on controller (just tap the direction lightly... although sometimes i still tap it too lightly and the character doesnt move.. but most of the time its fine). but on the stick.... if i tap it too lightly, it doesnt move, when i tap it a *little* harder, it becomes a regular jump. :(

Instead of just tapping it, try manually moving the joystick back through neutral, and into its OPPOSITE position. So, if you want to hop forwards, tap UF and then DB immediately. If you want to hop straight up, tap U and then D immediately. It doesn't hamper your execution at all, and that's what I do, just to make sure that I don't normal jump by accident. It comes in handy during those intense matches where "gently tapping the joystick" just isn't possible anymore.

[Ubersaurus]

RCs are allowed in tourney play.

CvS2 is much more of a poking game then alot of people would like it to be, but that's how it is (in my experience, anyhow). S groove doesn't suck like people make it out to, but its in no way the best groove.

[randomcelestial]

Bison's got awesome priority in some of his attacks. His crouching forward beats or trades Blanka's major middle-range pokes (S. Strong, C. Fwd, C. Fierce).

I think A-groove is the strongest groove because you get two-button "I win," and RC. Combining RC with very damaging combos and fast meter generation is just too good. RC Sakura's fireball and then her guard-crush abilities is so powerful!

CvS2 isn't really as much about turtling as people say ... with most characters.

Blanka and Sagat, the two best characters, are monsters when it comes to rushing. Against characters who can't duck Sagat's s.jab, it's hard to get him off of you once he's in close range, and once he's out he can just fierce. Blanka's low-jump Roundhouse is just a monster, and Blanka's fierce electricity deals what, 5% life and 40% meter after every knockdown? And because of their massive priority at the middle range, it hard to safely counterattack once they get on you.

I think that outside of maybe Vega, it's best to rushdown. You just need to learn how to rush turtles a.k.a. lowjump that shit.

[FluffyXXL]

Originally posted by Monkey


I didn't want to quote the entire post...So that will do.. ^_^

Anyway, great post for one thing. Another thing, RCing isnt allowed in tourney play right? If not, why does that make it a big part of the game? I have seen a video of it, but I'm not sure exactly how its done. I tried back when I had CvS2 for DC, but I had no success. Maybe you (or someone else) could touch base with it alittle more.

I really understand what you were talking about and I guess I'm going to have to play a lot before getting results. I remember in CvS1, it didn't take much to get "good", but this game sounds like it has a lot of depth to it. Thanks for the input. :)


-monkey

I posted in a thread a while ago about RCing. It is here (http://shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=381930&highlight=roll+cancel%2A#post381930).

I was a bit rushed in my last post, so there's a couple of things I want to point out as to what is the difference between playing top level CVS2 and the rest of us.

One thing I see top players do is throw correctly. Honestly, I haven't gotten the grasp of how to throw people. I know you throw when someone tries to roll through your pokes. Getting people to roll is the hard part. Or getting people to turtle up when you want to throw is also hard. Some characters, like Sakura, just do that better. I like Geese a lot now because I'm able to work the same kind of Sakura mind games with him.

Other than that, it's all about knowing your matchups. A lot of characters are playable because they can get their job done. If you lose your first character, but do 80-90%, you aren't out of the game. All the really matters is that you're either close or ahead towards the last match of the game. It makes it even more important to learn what to do and what not to do while in a matchup. I'd say the most important are being able to handle Sagat, Blanka, and Cammy with any character you play. There are times when you just can't handle one of those with your characters. That's when it pays to know all of your matches because you can change the order of your team if you've scouted your opponent head of time. In all reality, this is harder to do in tournaments, but easier to do in casual play.

[GeekBoy]

Originally posted by FluffyXXL




One thing I see top players do is throw correctly. Honestly, I haven't gotten the grasp of how to throw people. I know you throw when someone tries to roll through your pokes. Getting people to roll is the hard part. Or getting people to turtle up when you want to throw is also hard. Some characters, like Sakura, just do that better. I like Geese a lot now because I'm able to work the same kind of Sakura mind games with him.



If you can't figure out HOW people use throws in CvS2, you REALLY need to assess your game plan. Throwing is the great equalizer in a match. Throwing is a life saver. It can stop pokes in some cases, stop some supers. If you don't know throw setups, you're at a loss, in your offensive AND defensive game. Offensive wise, because EVERYBODY throws numerous times during the match...I recall a match I had one time where pretty much 60% of the damage I did to the other guy was throwing. And though I'm not sure, throw damage remains the same through the match. Defensive wise, knowing throw setups will save you from the forementioned damage. There are MANY ways to setup throws, basically, if somebody stops a poke/combo or something to throw you off, there could be a throw coming.

You CAN exploit that sort of mind game with A groove in some instances, you start a throw setup, then when you throw, you activate, if all goes planned, that person will whiff the throw enabling you to do a custom. Using this knowledge against somebody is one reason to learn throw setups and techniques, otherwise, you'll be left in the dust and kicking yourself for falling for something really dumb.

[jchensor]

Just wanted to stop in and make two points.

1) Best Groove w/o Roll Cancels is definitely N-Groove. When Roll Cancels are taken into account, I've heard that in Japan K-Groove has become the best Groove followed by C or A. N-Groove has dropped to almost worst Groove because it has no way to stop RC's (as someone pointed out already). Of course, I've heard this second-hand, so it may not be accurate.

2) There is no trick to Throws. There are no set-ups to Throws. The reason why people think Throws are so "complex" is because they don't understand Throws. Throws aren't a trick. There's really no "tricks" to them. Simply put, Throws are one thing and one thing alone: They are a COUNTER TO BLOCK. Just like using a DP to stop a jump-in, THrows are used to stop a Block. Once you get that mentality in, Throws are much easier to understand. Throw set-ups are only good if they, in general, cause a brain-freeze from your opponent and they are scared into Blocking. Sure there are good situations to Throw that work more than others, but that's because more often than not, people generally follow the same mental patterns thanks to human nature. You'll get your Throws in if you scare your opponent into Blocking. Again, if you think of Throws as a Counter to Blocking, that's the mentality you need to utilize them correctly.

Note: It's MUCH different than in ST, because Throws in ST are hard to stop, many times, EVEN IF YOU KNOW they are coming. In CvS2, it's a lot different because Throws have shorter range, so Throwing someone isn't so simple. ST does have "Throw Set-ups" that are bona fide set-ups, just because not all characters ahve equal Throw Ranges and Throws reach so far, that some characters can't stop them. But even then, landing Throws is tough if the opponent knows it's coming and can Reversal with Specials well.

- James

[Geronimo]

Yo everyone, I think I'm decent at this game, but I too am pretty inexperienced. Anyways, I got a question about rapid press special moves. And that is, is it better to press one button 5 times (i.e. HK 5 times for Chun-Li's lightning legs) or is it better to go "piano method"? I usually always do the one button way, am I doin' it "wrong"? And please note that I play Chun-Li in K-Groove, so RC'ing isn't one of my concerns, BUT I'm considering using Blanka in A-Groove (even though I HATE him, well fighting against him anyways).

O yeah, and as long as I'm here I might as well ask about the timing on Blanka'a CC's. Whenever I do the Jab Blanka Ball, it always hits and never whiffs, like it's supposed to. Any advise?

Thanks in advanced.

- Geronimo

[GeekBoy]

Originally posted by Geronimo
Yo everyone, I think I'm decent at this game, but I too am pretty inexperienced. Anyways, I got a question about rapid press special moves. And that is, is it better to press one button 5 times (i.e. HK 5 times for Chun-Li's lightning legs) or is it better to go "piano method"? I usually always do the one button way, am I doin' it "wrong"? And please note that I play Chun-Li in K-Groove, so RC'ing isn't one of my concerns, BUT I'm considering using Blanka in A-Groove (even though I HATE him, well fighting against him anyways).

O yeah, and as long as I'm here I might as well ask about the timing on Blanka'a CC's. Whenever I do the Jab Blanka Ball, it always hits and never whiffs, like it's supposed to. Any advise?

Thanks in advanced.

- Geronimo

The piano method is the one recognized by most people as the easiest one to RC, but IMO, if you can press the button really fast, that works too. It all depends on what you're comfortable with.

Well, you're probably too close, just study the one on Gunter's video. You could always do the OG Blanka custom in tragic's 2nd A-Groove movie, the sweep -> jungle hop custom, which is equally good.

[fubarduck]

1) Best Groove w/o Roll Cancels is definitely N-Groove. When Roll Cancels are taken into account, I've heard that in Japan K-Groove has become the best Groove followed by C or A. N-Groove has dropped to almost worst Groove because it has no way to stop RC's (as someone pointed out already). Of course, I've heard this second-hand, so it may not be accurate.

That is right. Best groove without RCs is probably N. BUT RCs are in the game, and many people use them nowadays. With RCs taken into account, it is hard to distinguish which is worse between N-Groove and S-Groove. N-Groove literally has nothing to stop good RC characters, and assuming the N-Groove player can't RC, or can only RC as good as the opponent and not better, the N-Groove player cannot expect to win.

N-Groove's main problem against an RC character is they can't jump. The RC character can just anti-air with their invincible move of choice. Charge moves are the best example (headbutt, psycho crusher, etc)--and it doesn't matter if the N-Groove player crosses up, because the RC player can simply hold the joystick the same way and still RC it to do the anti-air the other way. Of course, it doesn't have to be a charge move--they're all invincible, so it's whatever you prefer really.

Additionally, since N-Groove is a heavily offensive groove, an N-Groove character really has no way to get in on an RC character. If the RC Character matches N-Groove's pokes with invincible moves, then the N-Groove player will be quickly beaten unless they start turtling--in which case they're in an even worse position.

The supposed solution at first to RC characters in N-Groove was to build meter and counter-roll+punish random RC blocked moves. However, players quickly learned that most counter-roll/blocked move situations are still in the RC player's advantage. Usually, there is time to just do another RC move.

A lot of people wonder why Japan suddenly quit picking N-Groove in tournaments--well, it's simple when you look at the situation. Taking into account the above, a good number of Japanese players probably have RC characters on their team in tournaments. N-Groove characters lose to RC characters, and Japanese tournaments are single-elimination. Why risk playing N-Groove when the tournament is over as soon as you face a good RC player? Japanese players, IMO, are scared to pick N-Groove now because if they get paired up against one good RC opponent, they will lose the tournament.

Anyway, N-Groove isn't really viable anymore in any tournament situation where there are good RC players. The best counter for RC characters I think is K-Groove, followed by P-Groove (when played well), then finally C. C-Groove I think is more common now because it can handle RC decently, but can also use RC itself.

Hope this helps! Keep doing invincible moves, everyone!

fubarduck

[FluffyXXL]

Originally posted by GeekBoy


If you can't figure out HOW people use throws in CvS2, you REALLY need to assess your game plan. Throwing is the great equalizer in a match. Throwing is a life saver. It can stop pokes in some cases, stop some supers. If you don't know throw setups, you're at a loss, in your offensive AND defensive game. Offensive wise, because EVERYBODY throws numerous times during the match...I recall a match I had one time where pretty much 60% of the damage I did to the other guy was throwing. And though I'm not sure, throw damage remains the same through the match. Defensive wise, knowing throw setups will save you from the forementioned damage. There are MANY ways to setup throws, basically, if somebody stops a poke/combo or something to throw you off, there could be a throw coming.

I guess I should elaborate a bit more, because when I said "throw correctly", I really meant landing a throw.

I understand what you said, but what I thought I was mentioning was a bit more than that. I get tech hitted a lot. In fact, I'd have to say somewhere around 50% of the throws I do get tech-hitted. And that is just with the guys I play with at school (not counting scrubs that don't know better), not any of the good SVGL players. I have noticed that the better players also tech-hit more, and I accept that. Also, Sagat is just harder to throw mostly because everyone is always mashing on Fierce anyway. However, I notice that players like Nelson and Cole work throws into their game a lot better than I do. I really can't comment too much on those players because I haven't played at SVGL in a long time or even seen them play since EVO.

Anyway, I guess it just becomes harder to throw good players and not get teched because it just seems easier to tech-hit in this game.

[margalis]

The most common throw tech-hit is when someone rolls towards you, you throw them and they tech. When this happens it means your threw too late, at the end of the roll. If you throw someone while they are actualy in the roll (or doing any move) they cannot tech hit.

I won't say much about throw setups other than that most of the dive kick type moves give very little block stun. For example with Benimaru if you do his RH drill you can do his super grab right as you hit the ground and it will hit, you don't have to pause at all. (Or just a tiny bit depending on how high up you hit them)

[FluffyXXL]

Originally posted by margalis
The most common throw tech-hit is when someone rolls towards you, you throw them and they tech. When this happens it means your threw too late, at the end of the roll. If you throw someone while they are actualy in the roll (or doing any move) they cannot tech hit.

I won't say much about throw setups other than that most of the dive kick type moves give very little block stun. For example with Benimaru if you do his RH drill you can do his super grab right as you hit the ground and it will hit, you don't have to pause at all. (Or just a tiny bit depending on how high up you hit them)

Ok, let me give a few examples of what I'm talking about.

Situation 1 -- against Sagat
So, let's say you're fighting Sagat, and you happen to fall into range for his C.Fierce. Knowing this, you roll right through it. As soon as you can, you throw. He tech-hits. Why you say? Because he's already mashing on Fierce, which counts as a tech-hit.

Situation 2 -- setting up with Sakura
You score a knockdown. It's time for a cross-up. You do the cross-up, they block. Now, you want to keep the party going with a throw. You throw. They tech. Why you ask? Because that's like, so obvious once you don't stick out an attack. After playing against Sakura for X years, you begin to figure out when a throw is coming and when it's not.

The Solution
The best thing I've discovered is to not throw. Fake like you're going to throw. Then, do a quick C.short and use that to score a knockdown. If they still manage to block, try to work the situation a couple of times so you can get them out of the mindset of throwing, then throw.

[margalis]

Originally posted by FluffyXXL


Situation 1 -- against Sagat
So, let's say you're fighting Sagat, and you happen to fall into range for his C.Fierce. Knowing this, you roll right through it. As soon as you can, you throw. He tech-hits. Why you say? Because he's already mashing on Fierce, which counts as a tech-hit.


Mashing on low fierce will not tech hit IIRC.

What is happening here is that Sagat is trying to throw you as you roll. What you need to do is roll earlier so that you throw him while he is in recovery.

If you roll at someone and they are not stuck doing a move it is very difficult to throw them, because they most likely are trying to throw you out of the roll. One of you will get a tech hit.

[randomcelestial]

I agree that in CvS2 throws are important, and they also are hard to not be tech'd.

Some setups I've used / seen:

Roll into throw. GHETTO.

Characters with fast walking speed and high-priority pokes. Cammy and Vega come to mind. Walk back and forth with a few pokes, and then walk upto them and throw. This is pretty old.

Empty short jump into throw. Especially good with Blanka and Sagat because they have such feared short jumps. This also sets future short jump tactics like Sagat's empty short jump into Raid.

Sakura and Cammy's whiffed dives into throw.

After whiffed short hurricane kicks into DP, whiffed into throw. GHETTO.

Blanka's whiffed jab ball into throw.

Blanka's c.forward xx forward hop into throw. This gets tech'd a lot.

Blanka's electricity, stop right before they get up, throw. This is a funny one and probably impractical.

Go for deep cross-ups after every knockdown (as you should anyway!) and then omit an air attack, land, throw.

JD creates some mindgames with throws when you're being attacked from the air. Basically, after a deep attack that's JD'd, you can immediately mash forward to get a throw. Some characters need to mash jab to try and hit you out of it, some need to mash fierce to try and tech. This comes up a LOT in Chicago.

Some characters have great walk-up jabs/shorts. Sagat's on tall characters (including other Blankas and Sagats!), M.Bison's s.jab (on at least Sagat), and Vega's s.short and Rolento's s.jab on everyone. You can continuously mix-up walk s.jab and run s.jab. If the opponent is taking any hits they're trying to outpoke you, which they can't, so wait until they've stopped trying and then you get a poke-> throw. This is hard to get out of. I think when Sagat is doing this to Blanka, a close s.jab into an immediate throw can only be stopped by Blanka's s.jab, c.short seems too slow. This creates the problem that Sagat can make you stand up and then Tiger Raid you. I'm not sure if this is guaranteed, but it works in practice and it worked on a almost everyone I tried it on in the Midwest qualifiers.

Hope this helps.

[jchensor]

Originally posted by Alphastorm


Wait, I'm not following... There are no set-ups to Throws but there are throw set-ups??? :eek:

Haha. My bad. Boy did I word that poorly. ^_^

Okay, what I'm trying to say here is this: there ARE Throw Set-ups. But all Throw Set-ups follow the one same principle: you caused a brain freeze in the enemy so they Block on reaction.

The reason why I say there no such things as "Throw Set-ups" is because if your opponent's default brain freeze reaction is to Crouching Jab or Short, you will never land these Throws. One of my friends I've nicknamed "Always-Touch-A-Button" stops 95% of my Throw attempts, even with your standard "Throw Set-up". But that's because he taps buttons a lot. So if I replace Throw with a Jab DP against my friend, he usually gets hit.

Which is why I claim there are no "Throw Set-ups" in actuality. Because the Throw Set-ups we've come to know and love are really just ways that cause brain freeze to 95% of the people in existence. Experts won't fall for it because they are more or less "immune" to the Throw Set-up.

In other words, Throw Set-ups are not reliable. If someone stops your Throw attempt, you should never think, "Man, why didn't that work?!?" It's just another level of the mind games. You have the situations that work really well (the Cross-up Standing Jab whiff Throw that someone mentioned in another thread), but against people who are used to it, it won't work that well.

Bleah. I'm not sure I made myself any clearer. Am I making sense? Or am I just making you even more confused?? Sorry. :-(

- James

[Yumi Saotome]

jchensor: you think that's bad? I've taught UCLA never to block on their wakeup ^_^;;;;;;; And in Nor-Cal, every time I try to do a throw setup against Choi or Nelson, I always eat a combo into super. WTF?!


Yes, I throw waaayyy too much. It's enough to make me never want to throw anymore :p

Another "setup" you can try is to time a jab or short so that it goes right through the opponent right on their wakeup. The timing will be such that you'll be able to throw almost immediately.

[Alphastorm]

Originally posted by jchensor


Bleah. I'm not sure I made myself any clearer. Am I making sense? Or am I just making you even more confused?? Sorry. :-(

- James

Crystal clear. I understand what you are saying but, I disagree. :) I agree throw set-ups aren't as good against good players but, I've seen them used once or twice a match in high lvl play. So I believe throw set-ups are reliable as long as they are not over used.

Originally posted by jchensor


The reason why I say there no such things as "Throw Set-ups" is because if your opponent's default brain freeze reaction is to Crouching Jab or Short, you will never land these Throws. One of my friends I've nicknamed "Always-Touch-A-Button" stops 95% of my Throw attempts, even with your standard "Throw Set-up". But that's because he taps buttons a lot. So if I replace Throw with a Jab DP against my friend, he usually gets hit.

Landing that dp is the result of throw set-ups. If the threat of a throw wasn't there, your friend wouldn't be hitting buttons.

[bokchoy]

Originally posted by fubarduck

A lot of people wonder why Japan suddenly quit picking N-Groove in tournaments--well, it's simple when you look at the situation. Taking into account the above, a good number of Japanese players probably have RC characters on their team in tournaments. N-Groove characters lose to RC characters, and Japanese tournaments are single-elimination. Why risk playing N-Groove when the tournament is over as soon as you face a good RC player? Japanese players, IMO, are scared to pick N-Groove now because if they get paired up against one good RC opponent, they will lose the tournament.

Anyway, N-Groove isn't really viable anymore in any tournament situation where there are good RC players. The best counter for RC characters I think is K-Groove, followed by P-Groove (when played well), then finally C. C-Groove I think is more common now because it can handle RC decently, but can also use RC itself.

I think you're partially right but you're partially wrong. Here's what I think about the RC glitch's effect on the grooves.

-What makes N-Groove good is mobility. Having Small-Jump, Run and RC gives N a lot more options, and we all know how important options are in CvS2. However, RCs take away from this mobility. Small-Jumps are no longer as safe as it used to be, and Run isn't nearly as useful anymore, seeing as the opponent can blow through whatever move you throw out, with the exception of another RC. So, in short, RCs beat N-Grooves best advantages.

-K and P-Groove do well against C and A Grooves, because their general playing style keeps the RC glitch's impact on the game to a minimum. JD and Parry tones down the dominance of RCs.

-N-Groove works well against K and P Grooves, because since K and P-Grooves can't RC, N-Groove is free to use its mobility to its best use. While K and P minimize the effectiveness of RCs, N-Groove still has the advantage in mobility, and doesn't need RCs to win.

-C and A Grooves work well against N because, like mentioned earlier, N-Groove's huge advantage in mobility is minimized by RCs, while C and A's best advantage, power, still remains. In fact, RCs actually increase C and A's advantages. RCs allow C to turtle a lot more effectively, and if the C-Groover is sitting on three levels, trying to crack the turtle shell puts you at risk of eating a super. As for A-Groove, RCs provide more setups, as well as a safe way to build meter.

-I don't agree with you that N-Groove is no longer a viable choice in tournament situations, whether they are double or single elimination...well, in North America anyway. However, in Japan, I DO think that N-Groove is an unsafe choice for those who want to WIN the tournament. It's not because the Japanese use a single elimination format, it's because the Japanese use different tournament rules than we do. In Japan, all participants must choose their groove, team AND order, and stick with it throughout the entire tournament. Thus, they have to choose a team that is not easily countered, because if they run into a team that counters their own, all is lost. In North America, everyone is free to change their teams repeatedly throughout the tournament. If you run into an opponent where your main team is countered by his main team, you can just switch your team after a match loss, giving you a good chance at coming back.

Now, K-Groove, P-Groove and C-Groove have an answer to everything. No matter how bad your matchups are, K-Groove can rely on JD to keep the match close, P-Groove can parry, and C-Groove can out turtle you. As for A-Groove, no matter how bad your matchups are, you can rely on landing that one Custom Combo to keep the match close, or to make that huge comeback. As for N-Groove, if your team runs into an A-Groove team that coincedentially counters your team's specific order, you're gonna have a particularly difficult time finding alternate solutions to cover up your disadvantages.

THAT is why K and P Grooves have gone up in value, while N Groove has gone down in value, in Japan. I don't think the same thing will happen in North America, because of our tournament rules...

[Ouroborus]

Originally posted by bokchoy


THAT is why K and P Grooves have gone up in value, while N Groove has gone down in value, in Japan. I don't think the same thing will happen in North America, because of our tournament rules...

I think the value of N groove has also gone down in North America. Care to define what you mean by our tournament rules?

S groove does really well against RCer. Too bad S groove still suffers from other weaknesses.

[RushDown178]

I think RC'ing shouldn't be allowed, but hey...it's hard...But once u get the hang of it, you can abuse the hell out of it, and just abuse a set of moves over. I think we all should just play with the original game set and not rely on a glitch that was not supposed to meant to be in there.

[bokchoy]

Originally posted by Ouroborus


I think the value of N groove has also gone down in North America. Care to define what you mean by our tournament rules?

Well, N-Groove, of course, has been on the decline in North America too, but not to the extent where it's the second least used groove in the game.

Our tournament rules are different than Japan's. If you read my post and fully comprehended it, you'd see that I've already defined it.

[kusanagi/yagami]

I have only been playing CVS2 for 7 months now and even still I dont consider myself really good, I do however understand alot of the priority in all grooves and in all characters, I pretty much know what level of tier (meaning high, mid, or low tier). I have developed alot of skills in the game by my mentors and friends whose names I will keep anonymous however lets just say they are about the best in Toronto, ofcourse without trying to sound like I am bragging because that is not the message I was trying to get out, all I was trying to imply was that at least I didnt learn from scrubs. who think they are good.

anyhow my character I most use in A-groove are Chang, Nakkoruru, and Mai.
in C-Groove I mostly use Sagat, Vega, and Bison.
in K-Groove I use Chang, Vega, and nakkoruru.

But I have learned how to use other characters aswell and in my oppinion this is good because you dont want to use the same charcters all the time or other players will figure out how to beat and overcome your style, I can beat some of my friends nad alot of people who play in Downtown Toronto
Because Not only can I mix up my characters but I can play 3 totally different Grooves in a NOT BAD fashion.
And this is something for all you beginners to think about and consider,
A) learn other grooves ( then you can
begin to understand that groove
and know how to beat other
opponents who use it).

B) Learn other characters ( Do this to
mix up you team so other players
have a harder time to look for your
mistakes).

C) Know your character's Priorities ( do
this and abuse this technique

Here are some very basic techniques which I have been taught and maybe you might learn and enhance your game from: know your charater's Anti-Airs ( when playing against someone who jumps alot if you can execute your anti-Air attacks perfectly then there is no way they can get in close to you by Air.

If your opponent is a roller such as N-groove, C-groove or A-groove wait for the roll and just walk forward and grab them out of the roll, in about 91%
of the time YOU will grab them first, the other 9% is if they have a quick enough roll and a fast Super you may eat his attack first.

Alot of times I notice alot of people start jabbing out when they see the roll, against those people I beat them all the time with bison roll Medium kick super. lets just say that the super hops over the jab if done fast enough and beats all jabbers. Sagats level 2 kick super aswell. people who play k-groove or p-groove always fall short to my friend because alot of times when you jump at them they think you are going to attack so they are ready to parry or JD, one thing I know for sure is that K-groove allows your regular moves to come out faster and stronger than any other groove and even more faster when you are in rage. In K-groove be carfull not to jump in and attack all the time because they are expecting it and when u do and they are one more JD to RAGE they will
JD and buffer a move into a super and k_goove supers are very strong too and the moves are faster.
anyways the way my friend handles this is he will jump-in Do Nothing at all and SUPER.

Anyways My fingers are a little sore from typing so I will take this opportunity to say happy Newyear and goodluck to all. and P.S. I am sorry Bok choy about what EX- MATT said to you
He is not a friend of mine and he made Toronto people look bad. I hope you dont hate me for it. I respect everything you said to EX-MATT. you were 100% right and He was 100%wrong.
I will write more some other time.

[FluffyXXL]

Originally posted by Sifu
Why are we all so quick to leave S-groove out of this comparison? Or is it just so obvious that S-groove can't compete in a world with RC...

Ok, here's my quick description of why no one uses S groove.

Advantages: Run, Small Jump, Dodge, Dodge attacks, Desperation

That's about it. This groove literally has the least amount of advantages.

Disadvantages:
-Desperation gives you infinite lvl1 supers. Just to get the record straight, the majority of level1 supers suck ass.
-Dodges last a long time. Once you dodge, you're committed to that dodge. Your opponent can do whatever he wants and you can only wait it out or dodge attack
-Dodge attacks aren't invincible. Once you start the attack, you can get hit. You can dodge, attempt to hit a Sagat C.Fierce with your dodge attack, and get a suprise when you get hit and comboed into super. If someone is doing shoto rushdown against you, and you try to dodge and dodge attack, they can DP that shit.
-Your options against cross-ups are really limited. The lack of Safe Fall and/or roll, IMO, is a big disadvantage. Safe Fall can help a lot in situations where you don't want to get crossed up when you get knocked down. And to top it off, if you dodge when you're getting crossed up, you usually get thrown. You basically have to sit there and block it because you can't attempt to roll past it like the roll grooves can.

If you compare this groove to the next most similar groove in terms of options, the most comparable is K groove, and which one would you rather have? It's not to say that S groove isn't playable at all, it's just that the characters that are best in S groove (namely Sagat, but you could include bison, cammy, etc.) are better in other grooves. In fact, i have yet to see any character that is best in S groove, with the exception of Kyosuke, which isn't even an option as far as I'm concerned.

[Sifu]

I can see your point, but what about those characters than can combo lv1 super into lv1 super? i.e. Terry, Iori, etc. Doesn't that prove to have some sort of redeeming quality?

Also, it’s usually the attacks with longer recovery that you dodge. Obviously I wouldn't want to dodge a random jab. It's after you dodge an attack with longer recovery that you use the dodge attack into super (into super). Or, if they're too far away, the knockdown dodge attack (which usually has more range).

However, charging up is very hard to do, especially against good players. I'd say the main problem with S-groove is that you can't start doing any real damage until more than 3/4 of your life is gone. One mistake = death.

ah well, looks like I'll be switching to K anyway.

[FMJaguar]

Crystal clear. I understand what you are saying but, I disagree. :) I agree throw set-ups aren't as good against good players but, I've seen them used once or twice a match in high lvl play. So I believe throw set-ups are reliable as long as they are not over used.


Command throws have special move properties, so it's useful to learn sequences with them (gief,vice, etc...) but normal throws are basic, so trying to setup a throw is similar to asking how to setup a jump or how to setup a block, sure there might be one or two things you can put into words, but beyond that there's no gain in memorizing IMO. It's not that throws don't work at a high level, it's that the 'set-up' would involve playing that excat match over again, which of course isn't possible.

[Alphastorm]

Originally posted by FMJaguar


Command throws have special move properties, so it's useful to learn sequences with them (gief,vice, etc...) but normal throws are basic, so trying to setup a throw is similar to asking how to setup a jump or how to setup a block, sure there might be one or two things you can put into words, but beyond that there's no gain in memorizing IMO. It's not that throws don't work at a high level, it's that the 'set-up' would involve playing that excat match over again, which of course isn't possible.

Setups that cause your opponent to play a certain way(jump, block, jab etc) is part of the mindgame. They are equally as important as combos. If it's not worth memorizing then players would have long forgotten the classic setup, crossup, s.jab, throw.

When strategizing for chess, we look at every available move. If we chose to ignore some, it could mean the difference between winning and losing. I'm not a quick-reflex/crazy-combo type player. I love to strategize. So I can never bring myself to ignore any trick no matter how insignificant it may seem.

[FluffyXXL]

Originally posted by Alphastorm


Setups that cause your opponent to play a certain way(jump, block, jab etc) is part of the mindgame. They are equally as important as combos. If it's not worth memorizing then players would have long forgotten the classic setup, crossup, s.jab, throw.

When strategizing for chess, we look at every available move. If we chose to ignore some, it could mean the difference between winning and losing. I'm not a quick-reflex/crazy-combo type player. I love to strategize. So I can never bring myself to ignore any trick no matter how insignificant it may seem.

I think we're having this arguement because we don't define a "setup" the same way.

Back in the days of ST, there were bonified set-ups. I think JChensor used the example of Dhalsim. Sim could use a Strong throw, followed by a Forward Slide, to set up another strong throw. This setup couldn't be retaliated with normals or counter-thrown because the distance on Sim's throw was greater then everyone else. There were ways out, but this is supposed to be a CVS2 thread.

Fast forward to CVS2. Those same techniques used to set up throws no longer work. You can jab a throw. You can C.short a throw. You can do all kinds of things that don't involve DPs or counter-throwing. These, by technical definition, aren't set-ups. They are part of the mental game, because you can use it to make your opponent mash on a button to stop the throw. My personal favorite is to find out what button they like to mash on, make them block the jab, and then counter their attack. But, there are many different ways to make your opponent react. Again, this is not a set-up, it's part of the mind game.

[margalis]

The basic point James was trying to make was that in ST if you know a throw is coming you can still be pretty screwed. In CVS2 if you know a throw is coming you can avoid it 95% of the time.

In ST throws are NOT just counters to blocking. You can throw someone who is expecting a throw and trying their best to avoid it. In CVS2 throws are basically counters to blocking and rolling. There is no real ticking game in CVS2.

[Renegade]

In most cases run is better than dash.

But some characters have REALLY good dashes. They hop.

This can result in being able to cross up your opponent when they are knocked down by 'hopping' over their body.

Some characters that have this:
Cammy, Eagle, Vice, Terry, Bison (although its hard to do) and some others I can't think of.

It's something to think about.

[jchensor]

Originally posted by Alphastorm
Crystal clear. I understand what you are saying but, I disagree. :) I agree throw set-ups aren't as good against good players but, I've seen them used once or twice a match in high lvl play. So I believe throw set-ups are reliable as long as they are not over used.

Well, the way I'm trying to put it is this: Throw Set-ups are just like any other set-up. They CAN go horribly wrong or not work (obviously), but there's nothing that makes Throws more "set-up-able" than, say, a DP. I mean, let's say you're playing Hyper Fighting as Ryu and are pelting Guile in the corner with Fireballs. At one point, you just KNOW he's gonna throw that Sonic Boom, so your Hurricane Kick over it and nail him in delay. There's no particular set-up, but you can just "feel it" when he's gonna throw it. That's a Hurricane Kick set-up in as much as anything is a Throw Set-up, if you get my drift. I just don't like making people think there are ways to "set-up" throws. I'm hoping people understand that Throws are highly integrated into gameplay, and that to land a Throw, you don't have to have "set-ups". Yet for some reason, Throws seem to be treated as "set-up-able" more than other stuff.

Yes, thewre are Throw Set-ups, I'll agree. There are places where Throws will work more often than not. But they aren't any different from any other type of "psychic DP"-like technique is all I'm saying.

Landing that dp is the result of throw set-ups. If the threat of a throw wasn't there, your friend wouldn't be hitting buttons.

Haha. Actually, he would. He "Always Touches a Button", thus his nickname. ^_^ It doesn't matter if I never throw, he always touches a button. It's just his nature. Nothing to do with Throws. It's really funny. ^_^

- James

[Alphastorm]

Originally posted by jchensor


Well, the way I'm trying to put it is this: Throw Set-ups are just like any other set-up......Yet for some reason, Throws seem to be treated as "set-up-able" more than other stuff.


I'm not in anyway saying that throw set-ups are more important than other set-ups. I was just saying there is no reason to disregard it. Someone said we were talking about two different things. I think he is right. Although, I agree with your last two posts. It was your first post that confused me. Sorry.

[Tanion]

Morrigan has a HUGE as hell hop. Damn those jet boosters. But I prefer to have her [has a learning Morrigan player] in run. Because I'm thinking, if you want to use dash to avoid sweeps... arn't small jumps more effective? Even though C A don't have small jumps... P-groove does [out of the dashing grooves] and I sometimes find it easier to actually nail someone with a small jump as opposed to dashing and risking getting nailed. But then again I am more accustomed to rushing than playing mind games with dashing.

I started the game with P-groove [I was a SFIII buff] but I had to give that up because I kept on getting over-runned by quick characters like Vega, Cammy, Chun li etc. I switched to K-groove because it's somewhat like P-groove [if you JD a jumpin, you get a free command/super throw for free] but I just like how fast you get the meter. I normally don't use my rage meter for supers but more often, to damage my opponents with command throws and normals. If I see a opporunity for a super... then bam! There goes a lvl 3 up your ass. [from what I know... K-groove has the strongest supers]

Right now, I already have some realization on what type of team I want. So far I have Rock and Yamakazi in K-groove. But I am still debating on who the third character can be. I been trying out Chang [reason: high stamina, funny character, suprise tactics with Choi and the Spinning Ball] and Morrigan [reasons: a shoto with a good command grab... and IMO better supers. Soul fist = can be use on the ground and air. Cardinal Blade = ghetto shinryuken. Darkness Illusion = good and quick level 3... and can be used in the air!]

I agree with you guys that S groove sucks. Well kinda... well yeah it does suck. Sure you have dodge which is better than a roll [invincibility wise... dodges are COMPLETLY invincible while rolls are not invincible the whole time.] but your just standing there. So what if avoiding the hits? Your not doing any sort of damage. Plus I think that the power boost they get when Desperation mode is pretty much a waste. If you so little life left... won't you be more cautious as opposed to throwing lvl 1 supers all day? Also charging your meter gives you more problems.

With other grooves... you get meter when you dish out and recieve damage [except for K... which you only get meter for JD, counters, and getting hit].. but S-groove is crappy when it comes to getting meter. And I disagree about what you people say about N-groove. Sure it might not be unique like the other grooves, it's the only one with run and roll. RC rushing galore! Erhm yeah....

I think grooves that are harder to master are A and P groove. To do any damage in A groove... you need to know how to juggle and crap. And P-groove... well if you suck at parrying then you might as well pick something else since that's all you got in P-groove.

There is one thing I need to ask... I have been hearing that Morrigan has effective run tactics... but when I use her... I tend to get nailed by a DP or something. Anyone can help me with?

Oh... yeah... ratios... is it better to have a 3 person team or a 2 person team? [2,2 or 1,3]

[MalignantMouse]

tanion:

i remember reading a while back that someone worked out that it's best to have a 3 person team.

also, having a 3 person team makes it harder for the opponenet to pick a counter team.

i dunno if morrigan has better supers but u might give ryu a try in K...after all, a large part of playing K groove is what you do before you unleash your rage super.

[Dangief]

Originally posted by MalignantMouse
...after all, a large part of playing K groove is what you do before you unleash your rage super.

like how you keep doing the motion and make Yamazaki bounce up and down until they walk into your super?

[MalignantMouse]

yeah but i was just playin around. it looks funnier when yama bobs up and down and the other guy still jumps. sorry back to K groove.

[MuayThaiEmperor]

The thing i've noticed about CVS2 more then any other game, is the variety of ways to play it. For example, I play a very strategically based team, Sakura, Guile, Ryu(R2). I've been playing the game for over a year now, and this team compliments my wants. I'm at the position now where links are the only thing worth mastering. Links make CVS2 worthwhile, the combo's can be endless.

Yet...if I pick this team, most of the time i'm trying to link various combo's and strings off of cross-up's, rushdown strats, counters, roll's etc. However....the ability for someone to simply pick a N-groove team of Blanka, Bison, and Sagat is mind-boggling to me.

I find it appaling that some of the characters are this simple to pick up and use. A c.FP sagat can out-prioritize most weaks or light moves, which consequently kills many link or chain set-up's.

I'm not whining, i'm just stating the different levels of which the game can be played at, and what you need to do to win. I suppose that can be in any game though, which can be frustrating when strategy is trying to be implied. I'm sure any of the higher level caliber players here can tell you that.


And I don't find any one groove dominating. If you've seen the new SAI REC combo vid, S-Groove should be FEARED. I personally like C-groove because you don't need to activate for your level 3, so there's no limited time on using it. Plus, level 2 cancelling can be VERY effective, as can the air block.

A Groove is a good, but nothing's truly guaranteed in it.

The SNK grooves are simply out-matched because they have no roll. It doesn't matter in my opinion how skilled you are with rush-down properties, if someone picks a dominating character such as Sagat or Blanka, and has a roll, the odds are stacked against you.

CVS2 is both balanced yet un-balanced. I love the link system, yet the priority grid is off the scale sometimes...

[Dr.B]

Your too wrong MuyThai....S and K groove have advantages of their own over the roll grooves...Sometimes rolling can cost you your ass take it from the roll king..lol...It all comes down to who's on the controls...I can play a "good" N C or A player who uses roll good..and I could you S dodge and win...dont think so..keep looking at the results page and you will see...I mean dont get me wrong roll is too good..C is my other groove and the groove I used at EvL....So it just comes down to your over all knowledge of the game....

-B:cool:

[Nelziq]

watching alot of high level players, i dont see them rolling very much. mostly roll canceling. the most important thing is just having the roll makes it a mobility threat that your opponent has to be aware of. Otherwise its not particularly useful in and of itself

[Jakuda]

Originally posted by MuayThaiEmperor


The SNK grooves are simply out-matched because they have no roll. It doesn't matter in my opinion how skilled you are with rush-down properties, if someone picks a dominating character such as Sagat or Blanka, and has a roll, the odds are stacked against you.

Hey doesn't N have a roll? But yeah, S has a "dodge" but it's not as useful as a roll, and K does not need a roll. K does perfectly fine without a roll. Watching Ino play Kgroove again (on the evl2k2 dvds) made me realize how a good kgroove can get two lvl3 supers per round scary.

I didn't read the whole thread so if someone else mentioned some of this stuff, then sorry.

1) On grooves: Ino mentioned that in Japan A-groove is considered the strongest, followed by K and C, then P, then N & S (not sure on the N & S) order. Of course this assumes a wide use of roll cancelling.

With no roll cancelling, N groove is still very much up there.

N groove was considered weak because it doesn't really have a good defense against roll cancelling besides roll cancelling back.

C groove has air block, so you can jump straight up and block whatever they do, they can roll cancel back, and have instant level 2/3 super.

K has just defend. Not as simple to execute as C groove's air block, but better than N groove's nothing. Plus you get life, and rage which does more guard-meter damage.

A can custom combo through things.

P can parry duh.

S & N get the shorter end of the stick.

But for sagat, blanka, and cammy (oftentimes in the same team =) ) the choice of groove doesn't really matter. All three do well in almost all the grooves: C, K, A, N or P. Personal preference at that point.

[Pavel]

Hi,people!
I play CVS 2 for Dreamcast only(There is no arcade CVS2 in our town:().Here are my opinions for the game,I hope it help you:
The best Grooves:C,N - forget about the others!
The top tiers:Sagat(priority,Damage,Crazy links),Blanka(great range,Damage,Super-Direct lightning,good jump and air normals),Chun-Li(speed,good pokes,Great Supers,priority in the air),Vega(Balrog)(speed,range,air king),Camy(speed,good in the air,good range)...

[Ubersaurus]

If you ask me the dodge is more useful then the roll..it's alot less vulnerable for one. Maybe you can't move around your opponent so easily, but at least its harder to get thrown (unless they bait it, which they can do to rolling to, and a bit easier).

[jchensor]

Originally posted by Ubersaurus
If you ask me the dodge is more useful then the roll..it's alot less vulnerable for one. Maybe you can't move around your opponent so easily, but at least its harder to get thrown (unless they bait it, which they can do to rolling to, and a bit easier).

But you're missing the point entirely about Rolls...

Rolls move forward. And that's all it comes down to. You can Dodge to your heart's content, but how are you gonna sneak in on a defensive Sagat, Blanka, or Hibiki? Dodge won't help you at all because it doesn't advance you literally and figuratively.

A good smart Roll can lead to 60% damage. A good smart Dodge can lead to 50% damage, too, but the rarity at which that occurs is soooo much higher than a Roll into damage.

S-Groove's biggest weakness is that it has no alternate means of approach. C, A, and N Groove can Roll to get it. P and K can use their safer Jumps to get in (combined with Parry and Just Defend). S-Groove cannot approach. You can Run forward and Dodge, but again, that doesn't get you very far.

They should have done something like this: let you cancel a Dodge into ANY Normal move you want aafter the short Dodge start-up time, but with no invincibility. Then, you should be able to cancel a Dodge like you can nowadays, but with a brief frame or two of invinbibility (by pressing Fierce + Roundhosue or Strong + Forward). But then that would turn S-Groove into the Turtler's dream.

It's really hard to find a proper balance for S-Groove. It's gonna either be too good or not good enough, if you keep tweaking the Dodge. If you gave S-Groove one more feature (like Air Blocking), it may have been a lot better and still balanced.

- James

[Monkey]

James: I always thought it was unsafe to roll. I remember back in CvS1 days when nobody rolled, ever. I remember seeing something about rolls in the CvS2 section here, but I can’t seem to find it anymore. (The "Game Data" section that used to be up) Every time I use to roll in CvS1, I always seemed to get hit at the end of the roll. So I guess I just thought that it was the same for CvS2 also. I don’t really roll at all just from habit from CvS1, but when others roll I try to attack at the end of the roll, which usually happens. I understand that if timed right, they can be very useful, but I just don’t see the opportunities very much during game play though, IMO (Unless you are dodging a fireball or whatever).


-monkey

[Alphastorm]

Not all rolls are the same. Some are godly like iori's and some just plain suck like cammys. You don't have to roll past a super or Fb for it to be useful. You can predict if someone's going to fierce/rh and roll past it for a combo.

[jchensor]

Originally posted by Monkey
James: I always thought it was unsafe to roll. I remember back in CvS1 days when nobody rolled, ever. I remember seeing something about rolls in the CvS2 section here, but I can’t seem to find it anymore. (The "Game Data" section that used to be up) Every time I use to roll in CvS1, I always seemed to get hit at the end of the roll. So I guess I just thought that it was the same for CvS2 also. I don’t really roll at all just from habit from CvS1, but when others roll I try to attack at the end of the roll, which usually happens. I understand that if timed right, they can be very useful, but I just don’t see the opportunities very much during game play though, IMO (Unless you are dodging a fireball or whatever).


-monkey

Yes, it's true... most Rolls can be punished. And most Rolls wil be punished. But the think about Rolls is that if I have a full meter and somehow I manage to Roll past one little thing... just ONE little thing, I get 50-75% damage right there. If I Roll into Super or Roll through a move you threw out that has too much delay, peace out. It's too much reward for one successful Roll. Whereas with Dodging, if you Dodge Eagle's Stand Fierce, you don't get much out of that. So Rolls are too much of an X-factor. They also get you out of Cross-ups, get you out of Meaty Attacks, help you avoid Wake-ups... too good. Dodges aren't quite as useful.

Rolls aren't abusable, not by any means. But they can still be used here and there, and as Alphastorm pointed out, some characters like Iori (although I would argue that no one else comes close to being as evil with Rolls as Iori) are just waaaaay too good with Rolls.

- James

[kcxj]

RE: James Chen's roll super guide

Where's Dr. B when you need him? Triple roll into super vs. Japanese on EVL dvd ----> too good.. that's all I have to say.

[$|-|U(V)AYeL]

A-groove is the best indefinetly. Execution has to be perfect though.