Rose vs. Abel

[Wibble]

I just encountered an Abel who intentionally forfeited the first round, but on the 2nd and 3rd rounds he does some very Rufus-like series of block strings that literally froze Rose in a block state. Jamming on c.LP or backdashing doesn't seem to work and I was completely stuck.

Occassionally I was able to backdash but he would hit me again and reset the blockstring again and again.

Has anyone seen this? Most Abel players are annoying as hell, but this one was seriously taking "bwahaha lolz" to a new level.

Nonwithstanding the "I give u the first round" move was basically showboating, but what he was doing was pretty impressive... now I need solutions :( It happened incredibly fast but I don't know Abel's moves so I can't really describe what he did. I do know he had to do some special attack but had to cancel to reset the block string; but he gains his EX meter from simply his poke strings.

[nacor cb]

i got similar problems with Rufus (those damned triangle jumps and c LP...) and Cammy (TK Cannon Strikes and c LP tick throw spam).

i have no answer. the only thing that gave me a little breath was using slide to break their momentum.

but still, i have not won a match (only rounds) against this kind of spammers.

[Gonzales]

the abel player was doing cr.lp series into f.foward wich he can dash cancel, and rinse and repeat the cr.lp strings, if he repeatly did that your only hope would be to reversal with EX Drill

[Super Sonic]

As a Cammy player, I hate Abel with a passion! May Capcom give our chicks a means of fighting him (and other annoying characters) off. Amen!

[Wibble]

the abel player was doing cr.lp series into f.foward wich he can dash cancel, and rinse and repeat the cr.lp strings, if he repeatly did that your only hope would be to reversal with EX Drill

Aha! Thanks for identifying what it is!

So if you don't have an EX meter is this an insta-lose for Rose? :(

[Luffy086]

and it's like balrog infinite c.lp. U cant do anything but look your slowly lose.

[Wibble]

I think it's reasons like this I wish they reduce the wind-up frames for EX drill. I've seen her get hit with jabs or get thrown out of it it'd ridiculous considering she doesn't have any wake-up game, nor an escape move, or even a DP-like attack that can be used offensively/defensively.

Considering most other characters have ways of dealing with wake-up escape (Dhalsim teleport, Bison's EX headstomp, scissor kick, teleport, or devil's reverse, shoto srk, vega's backflip, etc.), I think that a boost to her EX drill only would be modest and reasonable tweak without breaking her.

It's just getting old when she gets knocked down and I have to spend the next 30-50 seconds sucking it up with hit strings and hit throws that are near safe for the other player.

[nacor cb]

yes, Rose wake up game is screwed, as we all know it at this point.

ultra doesnt work against jumping special spammers also (they cross up you).

if only her Soul Spiral could work as a really reliable reversal... Capcom screwed us (oh well, we could have just selected another char to main).

the only advice i can give is, as i said, being both agressive and smart. Zone him and abort his offensive game with unpredictable slides - throws, and some well timed cross ups if you are able to knock down him once.

easier to say than to do...

[Luffy086]

Yep, that's why its so hard to win with rose. Especially the pain faced against Gief.

Rose = no reversal move, no possibility to juggle to ultra. That all character have.

[Wibble]

(Sorry for threadjacking my own thread by talking about gief and ultra).

Regarding Gief, I'm not so worried about having strategies specific to him since just about every player is terrified at his close-up game. I think overall, Rose handles him fairly reasonably at long/mid ranges with c.HP, LP soul spark, and standing HP/HK. But yeah, I totally hear ya, when I get knocked down it feels like watching a seriously bad sitcom because I know it's going to be a painful ride in the next 30 seconds. Your 80% lead on him is useless if he can 100% you in 8 seconds.

Regarding tweaking...

Two things I would like to see, and again, I think they're modest improvements, and I'm not really interested in seeing Rose vaulted into some A-tier character. I think a lot of us play Rose is knowing that every victory feels like an underdog winning. The point here is to at least give us a fair shake because Rose can easily lose to one-trick pony strategies which isn't a very good representative of skill.

1.) EX Soul Spiral has near DP-like consistency interms of wake up and starting charge

2.) Juggle opportunities with EX Soul Reflect or FP Soul Reflect. It's kinda lame that Ryu and Ken can easily juggle after DP or air hit, and Rose can't even juggle with anything after a FP reflect (other than the Aura Soul Spark). It's hard enough to hit someone with FP Reflect as-is so I don't see this as being broken (at least no more broken than Ryu/Ken/Akuma/Sagat's juggles).

I'm a bit wary of making her ultra juggleable though; Considering how much damage it does and how lenient it is against jump-ins, and if we made her able to juggle into ultra ala Sagat like with c.HP vs air into juggle, we'll just end up being another Sagat clone (well admittedly, that doesn't hit as hard as Honda). I would take any effort to give her a chance with wake up / reversal than enhance what is already a reasonably OK ultra (other characters have much much more worse ones like Guile's).

I'm sure us Rose players will get griefed for having a juggle-into-shamwow. Honestly, deep down, I like that our playing community is rather small and we can individually represent Rose players. If we made her into some staple Ken/Ryu, things will be less interesting quickly IMO.

[Metroxylon]

2.) Juggle opportunities with EX Soul Reflect or FP Soul Reflect. It's kinda lame that Ryu and Ken can easily juggle after DP or air hit, and Rose can't even juggle with anything after a FP reflect (other than the Aura Soul Spark). It's hard enough to hit someone with FP Reflect as-is so I don't see this as being broken (at least no more broken than Ryu/Ken/Akuma/Sagat's juggles).


I think Rose is pretty well balanced despite lacking a juggle aside from reflect.

First my advice is to block everything a spammer does to you until they do a special move. that's either a chance to escape or to counter. Also keep space between you if that's their style.

Second I wanted to mention some information about HP reflect:

It can stop jump ins. it can bait a person into getting soul thrown if you do that right after the reflect. HP soul throw's range is usually great for such a scenario. and while a HP reflect will unlikely hit a jumper, when you soul throw after that, the odds are usually in your favor for the person to get hit by one of those tricks.

Added: Hp reflect can give you some room to jump forward during a fireball fight considering a shoto won't want to risk throwing a DP to hit you if they could get countered by it.


So yeah. I can't say Rose isn't a great character, since a lot of what she's capable of is all in how you use her.

[Rose]

really?

I find Abel rose's second easiest match up.

I just take it and down punch when dashing >.>.

[DaisukeNiwa]

Find an opening and FADC backwards to give yourself breathing room.

[nacor cb]

really?

I find Abel rose's second easiest match up.

I just take it and down punch when dashing >.>.

i also found Cammy being an easy match up until i fought one that wiped the floor with me 8 times in a row :sweat:

good players who knows their main advantages against yours are a pain, and unfortunatelly Rose is prone to suffer a lot of abuse because her lack or reliable reversal...

[GETBUZZIN]

I just encountered an Abel who intentionally forfeited the first round, but on the 2nd and 3rd rounds he does some very Rufus-like series of block strings that literally froze Rose in a block state. Jamming on c.LP or backdashing doesn't seem to work and I was completely stuck.

Occassionally I was able to backdash but he would hit me again and reset the blockstring again and again.

Has anyone seen this? Most Abel players are annoying as hell, but this one was seriously taking "bwahaha lolz" to a new level.

Nonwithstanding the "I give u the first round" move was basically showboating, but what he was doing was pretty impressive... now I need solutions :( It happened incredibly fast but I don't know Abel's moves so I can't really describe what he did. I do know he had to do some special attack but had to cancel to reset the block string; but he gains his EX meter from simply his poke strings.

haha you were playing me. sorry about that.

[Acku]

Perhaps you can share a good tactic to escape the strings? Guess FADC is the best I read so far.
The EX Drill reversal is great against anything that is not a jab. Jab strings being the case however require you to wait until a slower move, but who wants to wait while you are sitting right next to a grappler?

[Rose]

Cammy's TK Cannon Strike is too good for Rose :[..

My statement stands :].

[IceWilly]

On block the forward+mk is neutral for frames.

Unless he is following up the forward mk with standing fp or standing lp, the startup on all other normals is 5 frames. The startup on Rose's throw is 3 frames. Her crouch jab is also 3 frames.

So, i would say if he wasn't doing the standing punches (and maybe even if he is) on block you should be able to throw him, or in the worst case tech reset. And that should bail you out.

Having watched a few of get's videos (since i main abel, 2nd rose) he tends to do the cr.lk after the forward dash, so against him this should have worked.

Also acku, Abel has the disadvantage of no very fast normals. Best he has is 4, and those are both standing normals. Granted its often hard to recognize where the openings are in his strings, but it becomes very obvious once you play as him for a little.

[GETBUZZIN]

what icewilly said. if you time your throw correctly, you'll be able to throw me or if also throw a tech throw will come out. but if you don't time the throw correctly, you'll eat some more jabs, shorts, combo reset. also if you have super bar, throw out a ultra or super.

[nacor cb]

what icewilly said. if you time your throw correctly, you'll be able to throw me or if also throw a tech throw will come out. but if you don't time the throw correctly, you'll eat some more jabs, shorts, combo reset. also if you have super bar, throw out a ultra or super.

mmm... the problem is lag. it hinders Rose performance a lot when trying to defend against block strings/tick throws.

[demonpossessed]

i hate when i am faced with a good abel player. destroys my rose

[Kail]

Hmmm i dont follow. Every block string involving a jab fest has a few frames of vulnerability, as with say...with ryu. Your knocked back. Once out of range, cant you s.mk, or c.mp? I have a decent reaction to balrog's jabbing. after the third, I can time it just right for a short combo. Cant the same thing be done? Against these abel players?

With that being said, I have problems with abel. Rolling and blockstringing mixed in with throws and command throws...and his combo that ends on a throw... I just get overwhelmed. Once i get some dinstance, I'm much better off

[Acku]

Abuse S MK during his rolls.

I'm thinking about reversaling the COD when first hit is blocked. Because, if it is a true blockstring, it would keep you in stun when he does the PPP version. But when he decides to mixup with K, it's not a safe string and thus a EX drill should beat it straight out.
If all is well, the PPP stun will keep you from ding the reversal and in block, while any K attempt will get stuffed. Right?

If he tries to stop for a normal/command throw he'll get stuffed too. If he stops and blocks however you're gone for a twirl. But that stuff he normally wont do unless you get repetitive.

Then again, all shotos must use this tactic too

[IceWilly]

Reversaling after the first hit is blocked is not a bad idea if he likes to follow up. But most Abels that are worth anything will only do the first CoD unless they hit confirm cancel it off a normal. They may get more brave with an EX CoD, but for the most part the good ones will stop. Especially if they did it once and you knew how to block the rest of the string.

His block strings are good, but they aren't all that fast to come out. If he is using cr.jabs instead of cr.shorts you know he isn't a block string master. cr.jab comes out a frame slower that short.

Also, after his block strings... BLOCK. He will do the F-MK to dash mostly, and then just throw him out of the follow up. Unless he lands a hit, you will come out of it at neutral with him. If he goes for ANYTHING but normal throw, you can throw him first if your timing is good. If you are a little late his non ex command throw will beat it. Most of the time abels like to go for the LP command throw for range damage, often if you knew to regular throw them in the same time you would win.