CvS2: to RC or to Parry...?

[glass]

i'm trying to decide whether to learn how to roll cancel consistently, or to hone my parrying reflexes/skills. which would probably be the better investment of practice time..?

sure, RCs can be used in 3 grooves. but P-groove becomes very difficult to stop with higher level parrying. the top players here use P-groove and N, but the RCs in N are limited.

(if it's any use, characters i'll be playing with include Ryu, Zangief, Hibiki, Kyosuke, Eagle, Yamazaki, Guile.)

[aznxk3vi17]

First, drop Kyosuke. Second... I would suggest P-groove (only because it's my favorite groove). Roll cancels cannot get past a good parrying player, and some of the players that you have there (Hibiki comes to mind) are very good in P-groove.

[Mummy-B]

Just Defend that shit down.

[glass]

lol. i need an oddball here and there. besides i like his L3.

- Ryu's supposed to be very strong in grooves with Run, but have there been many good P-Ryus..? any vids?

- Zangief's RC 360+K seems very difficult to get out consistently. is it worth it the practice? is it even possible to do consistently..? i hear about RCd KK lariats but i'd rather use the PP lariat; isn't that much easier? and isn't parrying into SPD good anti-air as anything else..?

- why is Hibiki good in P? (i only saw an A-groove thread)

[cdaskillz]

Originally posted by glass
lol

- why is Hibiki good in P? (i only saw an A-groove thread)
cause she can just sit there on her meter and turtle and parry all day.. hibiki is a bitch and i hate her :mad: sorry...just past fustrations playing her. :confused:

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by cdaskillz

cause she can just sit there on her meter and turtle and parry all day.. hibiki is a bitch and i hate her :mad: sorry...just past fustrations playing her. :confused:

Nah, it's because one of her major weaknesses (outside of a good Bison) is someone with a ground projectile that zones her out. Parry eliminates that problem altogether.

[Laotian-Emotion]

yes, I couldn't quite decide to use P or N..

but your right, hibiki had her qcf+fierce to get rid of projectiles but it's just much easier to deal with P.

I also use honda, I'm still having some trouble using him in P groove, not quite sure what to do with him in P. Can you guys help me out?

thanx, much appreciated, peace out :)

[aznxk3vi17]

I don't play Honda, but I know that if you have a charge charged up, and you parry something, press punch immediately afterwards, and you should throw out the charge move, i.e. if you are charging back, then you parry a fireball, pressing punch would throw out the headbutt.

[rallykupo]

parry man parry. rc'ing consistantly no matter with how much practice is just too damn hard. parrying gets easier once you get used to it. even easier to do if you were once a k groove animal like me.

but anyways, i don't find that the inability to run in p groove is not that much of a disadvantage since you can parry and short jump. all of the characters you mentioned are all good in p i think. exept for yama, he already has counters and i think that he really does need a run or atleast a roll because that fucker is so damn slow. and i guess kyosuke would be fine in p being that he sucks in general, i guess parrying would give him a slight edge... very slight

my team in p is, guile, akuma or rock, and a ratio 2 bison. not because bison needs a parry, but because no one beats my bison. i think that any character that has speed would be kick ass in p like nak, benimaru, shotos, vega, bison, and so on. i say that because since you can't run, slow characters can't get in fast enough and you can't parry too well if you stay too far away. sure there is always defensive parrying, but without a quick way to get in, its gonna be a long match.

[Laotian-Emotion]

Originally posted by aznxk3vi17
I don't play Honda, but I know that if you have a charge charged up, and you parry something, press punch immediately afterwards, and you should throw out the charge move, i.e. if you are charging back, then you parry a fireball, pressing punch would throw out the headbutt.

well yea, I Parry then I do his Super charge up. But they either block or roll or just shoryuken it.

Also the problem I have with it is I tend to get anxious and I hate waiting so long for it to charge up the meter =/

well, I still gotta work on parrying though.

What's the best move to use for honda/hibiki if you parry in the air?

btw, I use chun(1r)/hibiki(1r)/honda(2r). The problem seems to occur with the meter because it takes so long... Guess i'm too anxious to 2in1 her super. I was also wondering what you guys thought about this team? it's fairly good on p right?

[ant one]

two words: p cammy

[RagingStormX]

P-groove Geese is real good ( but, not as good as K ).

[aznxk3vi17]

With Hibiki:

If you parry in the air, and they're still grounded, go for a combo starting with MP, FK, or FP.

If they're in the air and you parry, Hibiki's best air-to-air move is FP. Use that.

[Tanion]

I agree with Mummy-B. Just defend that shit.

Ratio 4 K-Groove Geese... ^_^ woooooot!

[glass]

i saw the K vs P discussion thread but i had jus one quick question.

isn't parrying somewhat riskier than JDing? if you hit back early you still block, and JDs can be performed low. why then are JDs rewarded with a sliver of life?

plus K has runs, a 35% attack and defense bonus upon rage. what's P got that's so good? besides
- a meter to sit on
- no bounce effect like after an air JD

[BaBaBooey]

Originally posted by glass
i saw the K vs P discussion thread but i had jus one quick question.

isn't parrying somewhat riskier than JDing? if you hit back early you still block, and JDs can be performed low. why then are JDs rewarded with a sliver of life?

plus K has runs, a 35% attack and defense bonus upon rage. what's P got that's so good? besides
- a meter to sit on
- no bounce effect like after an air JD

well, if you mistime your JD and do it late you can still get hit. you can parry low also. with parry, when you parry you have no block stun so you can imediately counter attack right after your parry. you get so little life back from a JD, it's pretty much inconsequential.

when parrying supers, you can parry the first hit and jab them out of it. when JD supers, if you just defend the first hit you must either block the rest of the hits or JD the rest of the hits.

[glass]

wow. i'm such a n00b. i didn't even realize JDs didn't cancel blockstun.

thanks :)

[BaBaBooey]

Originally posted by glass
wow. i'm such a n00b. i didn't even realize JDs didn't cancel blockstun.

thanks :)

JD don't cancel blockstun completely, but it does shorten the blockstun you're in. you can still retaliate with a move if it comes out fast enough.

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by BaBaBooey


JD don't cancel blockstun completely, but it does shorten the blockstun you're in. you can still retaliate with a move if it comes out fast enough.

After a JD, just throw that shit :lol:. I used K groove because imo its easier to JD then it is to Parry and I feel it has more advantages but thats for another discussion. As for to learn p groove or rc, well it depends on how good you can be at rc'ing. A good n groove player who can rc like a mad man is just a big a threat if not bigger than a p groove player. It just all depends on how good you can be at it, neither is easy to learn but both can be beneficial. My advice? Just JD that shit.:lol:

[Ubersaurus]

You can hit back after a parry, for one, whereas with a JD you are still in block stun for a few moments. Sides, that rage mode doesn't do much good when your opponent sees you reach it and makes sure you never get the chance to really use it to its fullest advantage.

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Ubersaurus
You can hit back after a parry, for one, whereas with a JD you are still in block stun for a few moments. Sides, that rage mode doesn't do much good when your opponent sees you reach it and makes sure you never get the chance to really use it to its fullest advantage.

Same thing can be said for p groove, once they finally see that bar filled up you really think there gonna let you hit them with it? That point is kind of irrelevant, its like that in any groove.

[Mummy-B]

The thing is, being in K Groove is one of the only Grooves that rewards you for taking risks in being aggressive in CvS2. The whole game itself caters to turtling becaise the risk/reward for aggression in that game is totally unbalanced - the turtling on a Level 3 meter Blanka will almost always win that one out.

So you take risks, and you lose out sometimes, and when you do, you get a chance to do the highest priority, most damaging super and you get a damage bonus.

P Groove can't begin offer anything like that.

[caliagent#3]

i disagree, p-groove is the groove with a reward. if u parry u get a free combo or super, it's harder to retaliate after a jd. One of those reasons is becuase if u jd in the air u go backwards into a defensive postion and not towards your opponent in an offensive position like p groove. the only reward in k-groove i c is getting more energy for turtling which i don't find very appealing. P-groove is the most offensive groove in the game, most people just don't know that.

[Mummy-B]

P Groove has more reward? Yes, if you can Parry everything and the kitchen sink. It has:

The lowest block meter
No bonus for meter at all
The slowest building meter
The weakest Level 3 super compared to all the other Grooves

Parry
Short Jump
Dash

Are you really going to try to argue that P Groove has more reward than K Groove? P Groove can retaliate using its system mechanism much more efffectively, but I wouldn't give up everything in K Groove for a 5-7 frame window that is dependent on my reaction time and your timing with a move.

yeah lol, i get better results from playing a 2 day old k groove than 7 months of experience with p...p is only for the hardcore, it's rewards ARE there if mastered.

It's just that k has more overall.

[glass]

then i guess a lot of players here have "mastered" P groove.

quiz time! answer "true" or "false", and say why..

- N, C or A groove player without RCs can stand up well vs a player who uses RCs.
- N, C and A without RCs stand up well vs P and K.
- RCs, successfully integrated into one's gameplay, kill P and K.
- K stands a better chance against RCing players than P.

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by glass
- N, C or A groove player without RCs can stand up well vs a player who uses RCs.


N, no. C and A have options to fight it more than N. I'm not familiar with A Groove, but I know that C Groove at the very least, has alpha counter and air block while A has alpha counter and CC activation.


- N, C and A without RCs stand up well vs P and K.
- RCs, successfully integrated into one's gameplay, kill P and K.
- K stands a better chance against RCing players than P.

eh, these are kind of a situational basis. It would largely depend on the skill level of whoever is Parrying or Just Defending.

But outside of the last question, take a look at SBO Japan qualifers for your evidence - only one (maybe two) N players, the rest are A, C, P and K.

[Gunter]

Originally posted by Mummy-B
P Groove has more reward? Yes, if you can Parry everything and the kitchen sink. It has:

The weakest Level 3 super compared to all the other Grooves




Only S and K get Level 3 damage boost. P level 3s are the same damage as C and N.

[Sabin]

RC in the long run is hella better than parrying, you have to work too hard to win with p-groove (even though it is a scrub groove imo, cause you can use option select and parry all the "big hits" a certain way,). Plus what's pgroove gonna do about chip, and runaway?

The biggest myth is that RC is hard - it is, but only until you learn how to do it. Once you learn how to do it it becomes hella easy to use..

[bison812]

after playing for a long amount of hours with RCing. Ive decided that im going to learn to RC on a reg. My 1st tourney i went too i got to use me RC honda and not just the 100/hand slaps but the head butt and i killed a lot of FB crazy players (SAGAT comes to mind) i owned a lot of players. I think imo to be consider good at CvS2 you must learn to RC some sort of move to be good. Since learning to RC a little im learning Balrog and just imagine a RC rush punch damn. To choose between Parry and RC i like RC better. IMO dont rely to much on Parry sometimes it can be deadly.

[RagingStormX]

Yeah well, if you use rc honda, K and P kill him and he has NOTHING on Hibiki. But as for Balrog...if you can rc him, that will definitely make him scary to fight. That would be just as bad as honda.

[Gunter]

Originally posted by RagingStormX
Yeah well, if you use rc honda, K and P kill him and he has NOTHING on Hibiki. But as for Balrog...if you can rc him, that will definitely make him scary to fight. That would be just as bad as honda.

I don't know... theoretically yes. But Tokido only picked up Honda like 2 weeks before Evolution, and he did pretty well against Ino, and I think Ino's pretty damn good in K.

But the strength of RCs is really apparent in A-Groove (even Tokido made the switch), where one RC leads to half life. Blanka, Bison, Sakura, Todo, hell even Rugal can custom off of a landed RC and take off half your life. Good RC'ers will use them when the opponent is doing a move, like a poke or a FB. Then the RC connects, they activate, and they say good-bye to their opponent's life. RCs are also a great way to build meter. Blanka builds meter faster and more safely than any character in the game with RC Pikachu. Ken can RC Foot from a distance and be fairly safe. Bison can RC Paint. When you begin to take these factors into account, RCs are much more versatile than parries. The opponent has to do something for you to parry it. With RCs, the opponent can TRY and do something, but for the most part, it's safe for the RCer.

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by Gunter

Only S and K get Level 3 damage boost. P level 3s are the same damage as C and N.

Really? I know that S and K give damage boost to the first hit of the super, but the CvS2 Knowledge Base has that graph of Level 3 Super Damage and it puts P in dead last. Is that outdated?

[Gunter]

Originally posted by Mummy-B


Really? I know that S and K give damage boost to the first hit of the super, but the CvS2 Knowledge Base has that graph of Level 3 Super Damage and it puts P in dead last. Is that outdated?

Yes. Ink (or whoever did the testing) accidentally left the meter setting on INFINITE while he was testing, giving C and N boosts that are impossible during actual play (C gets damage boost according to how much meter it has, and N for when its timer is still active).

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Gunter


Yes. Ink (or whoever did the testing) accidentally left the meter setting on INFINITE while he was testing, giving C and N boosts that are impossible during actual play (C gets damage boost according to how much meter it has, and N for when its timer is still active).

Yes but even if you look on alot of sights or actual graphs it shows P groove is the weakest lvl3 groove, its fairly well know. Hell it doesnt lie when you go into practice and you see the damage that the lvl3's do and p groove is the weakest. If p groove had a run instead of a dash then I might agree that it would be more of an offensive groove, but unless you play a p groove cammy or terry its alittle harder to be aggressive due to the way the groove is set up. It all depends on how you look at the risk vs reward situation. There is a bigger risk in trying to parry something but usually a better reward as far as damage delt out after the parry goes. Personally I still prefer K groove, as most of the moves you JD upclose can still result in a throw, not to mention the added life you get back. Some people may laugh at that since it doesnt give you much but ive seen people win just because of that little bit of life they got back from jd'ing.

[Gunter]

Originally posted by jae hoon


Yes but even if you look on alot of sights or actual graphs it shows P groove is the weakest lvl3 groove, its fairly well know. Hell it doesnt lie when you go into practice and you see the damage that the lvl3's do and p groove is the weakest.

Do you even test things before you blurt them out online? Check it yourself. P N and C all have the same damage because they don't receive any damage boost to their SUPERS. N and C get damage boosts to normals according to their meter and timer being active (respectively). Go into training. Set your super meter to NORMAL or to MAX START. Do a level 3 super on a character not in K groove (which receives defensive boost when raged). A groove is pretty safe. In fact, I'll do all the work for you:

Ryu's Super FB at Level 3, tested on A Kyo (both Ratio 2):

C - 4500
A - n/a
P - 4500
S - 4725
N - 4500
K - 4950


Do you think I'm making these numbers UP? You're WRONG. Plain and simple. It may be more difficult to BUILD a meter in P as opposed to the other grooves, but it does the same base DAMAGE. It is NOT "weaker".

The REASON people thought that it was the weakest is because P groove doesn't have any damage boost whatsoever. C does more damage when you gain more meter. For example a fierce at level 3 does more than a fierce with no meter. Same with N. When you break a stock, your normals do more damage. HOWEVER, in a REAL MATCH, your C meter will NEVER be FULL during the your Level 3 super. It DEPLETES it. Same with N. When you put the meter setting to INFINITE, the computer sees that you still have full meter during your Level 3 C super, and that you're still "powered up" during your Level 3 N super. BUT THAT NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER happens during a real match. You are WRONG. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

[Mummy-B]

Originally posted by Gunter


Yes. Ink (or whoever did the testing) accidentally left the meter setting on INFINITE while he was testing, giving C and N boosts that are impossible during actual play (C gets damage boost according to how much meter it has, and N for when its timer is still active).

Ah okay, now I understand - jchensor was trying to explain that to me before that the graph was wrong and I think I misunderstood what he was explaining to me. Good to know, thanks.

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Gunter


Do you even test things before you blurt them out online? Check it yourself. P N and C all have the same damage because they don't receive any damage boost to their SUPERS. N and C get damage boosts to normals according to their meter and timer being active (respectively). Go into training. Set your super meter to NORMAL or to MAX START. Do a level 3 super on a character not in K groove (which receives defensive boost when raged). A groove is pretty safe. In fact, I'll do all the work for you:

Ryu's Super FB at Level 3, tested on A Kyo (both Ratio 2):

C - 4500
A - n/a
P - 4500
S - 4725
N - 4500
K - 4950


Do you think I'm making these numbers UP? You're WRONG. Plain and simple. It may be more difficult to BUILD a meter in P as opposed to the other grooves, but it does the same base DAMAGE. It is NOT "weaker".

The REASON people thought that it was the weakest is because P groove doesn't have any damage boost whatsoever. C does more damage when you gain more meter. For example a fierce at level 3 does more than a fierce with no meter. Same with N. When you break a stock, your normals do more damage. HOWEVER, in a REAL MATCH, your C meter will NEVER be FULL during the your Level 3 super. It DEPLETES it. Same with N. When you put the meter setting to INFINITE, the computer sees that you still have full meter during your Level 3 C super, and that you're still "powered up" during your Level 3 N super. BUT THAT NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER happens during a real match. You are WRONG. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Um ok I never put the meter on infinite ever, I always put it on normal so my game must be lying to me. :confused: Eh doesnt really matter, I still cant play p groove lol, and I just dont like how long it takes to build up the damn meter, I have actually seen good p groove though and it is deadly, IMO K is still the better groove.

[box]

Jae: Sure. Your game's lying to you. Whatever you say. :lame: :lame: :lame:

[RagingStormX]

N-groove supers do almost as much damage as S-groove, not C. I went into training and did the Raging Storm in C, which did half life, and in N it put Kyo in the red of his life. I tried other supers also, the God Press, Gigaton blow, and the Shin shoryuken all did way more damage in N than C. N has stronger Lvl 3 supers and powered up normals, I'm for sure.

[Mummy-B]

That's because in N and S, you have a damage/defense bonus when you break a stock or have a MAX gauge, and the super gets the percentage benefit of damage on the first hit of the Level 3 super.

[glass]

the super thing. is it really such a difficult concept to grasp? jeezus. for anyone who can't do it, Gunter already overexplained it in his Long Post (tm).

i've only been playing CvS2 a few weeks, and i don't have much access to vids or knowledge of players. are there any good P-groove players i should try to follow? i'm pretty familiar with the N-groove stuff i think. also is P-groove typically played aggresively at higher levels or in japan, or is it strictly defensive as per its design? any good P-groovers ar Evo2k2?

[box]

Originally posted by RagingStormX
N-groove supers do almost as much damage as S-groove, not C. I went into training and did the Raging Storm in C, which did half life, and in N it put Kyo in the red of his life. I tried other supers also, the God Press, Gigaton blow, and the Shin shoryuken all did way more damage in N than C. N has stronger Lvl 3 supers and powered up normals, I'm for sure.


Try testing with the super meter on normal and not infinite and you will get better results.

[Cicada]

RC

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by box
Jae: Sure. Your game's lying to you. Whatever you say. :lame: :lame: :lame:

Ok how about you come over to my place and read the same shit it says on my screen. Guy thinks im just making this shit up. :lol: Doesnt matter that much to me anyway, its more of a matter of what groove fits your style or which one you preform the best in.

[Gunter]

Originally posted by jae hoon


Ok how about you come over to my place and read the same shit it says on my screen. Guy thinks im just making this shit up. :lol: Doesnt matter that much to me anyway, its more of a matter of what groove fits your style or which one you preform the best in.

You're doing something wrong.

Here's a list of possible reasons:

1. Your meter setting is not set to Normal or Max Start.

For some C and K supers, if you leave the meter on Recover, the meter will rebuild before the super finishes. This gives extra damage to the tail end of the super (the hits that occur during the extra damage boost period when the meter is at full). Put it on Normal or Max Start.

2. You're doing the super on Vega or on a K-Groove character.

These will mess up your results like crazy, as Vega takes more damage when his mask is knocked off (sometimes during the middle of the combo), and K-Groove takes LESS damage when raged.

3. You're not letting their life rebuild before testing again.

Moves do less damage when the opponent is about to die. I believe they start to scale when the life turns orange, and then scales more when it's red.




There may be more factors, but none are coming to mind right now...

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Gunter


You're doing something wrong.

Here's a list of possible reasons:
For some C and K supers, if you leave the meter on Recover, the meter will rebuild before the super finishes. This gives extra damage to the tail end of the super (the hits that occur during the extra damage boost period when the meter is at full). Put it on Normal or Max Start.

2. You're doing the super on Vega or on a K-Groove character.

3. You're not letting their life rebuild before testing again.

There may be more factors, but none are coming to mind right now...

Yeah ok those ones makes sense, Vega usually is my practice dummy and all I have been practicing is K Groove recently. I usually dont let the life meter build up because I dont worry about it, im just trying to practice shit. I dont usually take super damage into consideration anyway, hell I play Athena, her super even in K doesnt do that much damage.

[Hellion]

Glass,
Roll Cancelling is a great skill to have. Some characters use it better than others, those like Rugal have those CC's that spell the end if they connect with just that one RC...
On the other hand, just abusing RC's will get you killed against any groove.
It's like P groove in that playing P groove is not about parrying everything, it is knowing when to parry (Of course, if you're the man, by all means parry it all).