who are the top tiers in CvS 2 [Archive]

FluffyXXL

01-31-2003, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by F Attachment
What exactly makes Geese top tier in Japan? How do they play him differently there?

I've heard some stuff about japanese geese. I heard a while ago that some people use him in K groove because if you land a counter, it still counts towards your rage meter. Also, like Uber said, his counter nabs all non-throw, non-projectile specials/supers, and I do mean all. High counter even beats RC electricity. I've also been playing Geese pretty steadily for a while and I think he can beat Blanka. He has all the tools to do it. This is not to say that he has no bad match-ups, cuz he does. I'm not sure what they are because I play a very small pool of players now, so I really can't speculate. But, I know he's good against Blanka. He's decent against Sagat, but just not great. He also can use his mid and low counters to stop the N-groove rushdown jabs and shorts.

As for myself, I play A-Geese. I don't think he needs run or low jump to suceed. His customs are among the easiest and most damaging in the game. Activate, S.fierce x3, HCB+Short (2hit) xn, raging storm (make three clockwise circles during the last HCB+Short and end at DF with jab). It's really easy to do and damaging. If you want more damage and challenge, go check out Gunter's site (http://www.namonaki.com/games/newagroove.html) for the real deal. Also, it's fairly easy to do C.jab x2 into custom. C.Jab x2, activate, C.Forward, S.Fierce, S.Roundhouse, HCBxn, raging storm. You can even set it up off of a cross-up.

Anyway, that's why i like Geese.

BusterWolf

01-31-2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Evil Iori
Only 2 people I consider top tier are Sagat and Blanka, then characters like Sakura, Cammy, Bison are top middle tier. Everyone except for King, and Kyosuke are top tier, and the only way King can be played well is if you are in control the whole match, because of her corner traps. Other then that she has low priority fierces, and low stamina, which defines a top tier in CvS 2. With the exception of Sakura. The only thing King as going for her is a projectile, which can be rolled, or side stepped.

Lol Cammy middle tier....

-Dr.B:cool:

ServbotRollTrap

01-31-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by erco

well by your definition, Vega REALLY shouldn't be up their since he dies completely to Bison and cammy.

I guess you haven't played against a good Vega. In Miami, if this one guy picks Vega, you'd better pray you have Vega on your team as well. Bison and Cammy don't totally rape Vega, well not any good vegas.

Iceman

01-31-2003, 03:56 PM

I guess you haven't played against a good Bison or Cammy :rolleyes:

ServbotRollTrap

01-31-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Iceman
I guess you haven't played against a good Bison or Cammy :rolleyes:

Only if you knew. So, you're telling me that a good Bison or Cammy against a good Vega. Is absolutely no match for either Cammy or Bison, that they totally rape Vega. Is that what you're saying.

Evil Iori

01-31-2003, 04:12 PM

I didn't say they sucked, I said there not as good as Sagat or Blanka. They get there own tier because there seperate from middle tier, and from top tier.

top tier

top middle

middle

low

That's how I tier..

I respect Bison and Cammy, both are really good in my opinion.

Iceman

01-31-2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by ServbotRollTrap
Only if you knew. So, you're telling me that a good Bison or Cammy against a good Vega. Is absolutely no match for either Cammy or Bison, that they totally rape Vega. Is that what you're saying.

If only YOU knew. :rolleyes: See how lame these arguements are w/o any backup. Absoultely rape? No, these matches aren't completely unwinable. Do they hold a definate advantage on Vega? Yes. 6-4 wins for Bison and Cammy, maybe a lil more for Bison. Vega has options, they aren't as numerous or easily to apply as what Bison or Cammy has. Bison and Cammy both have means to get in on Vega (fast walking speed, forward moving safe specials. Both can poke with Vega using their roundhouses (Bison especially). Bison can take Vega in the air (something most characters can't dream of doing). Cammy's good in the air, but not as good as Bison. With Cammy it's more about getting close and fiercing Vega to death. Cammy can also Anti-air Vega really well, as opposed to Bison. Bison's anti-airs (or lack there of) is the one thing Vega can exploit. One final note is that both characters have fast supers, which means Vega has to be a little careful with his poking.

Scamp

01-31-2003, 05:15 PM

It seems to me that based on who the Japanese players play that Sagat is superior to Blanka. When I think about it, I come up with this comparison.

Both have damaging pokes with above-average range and priority.
Both have difficult-to-stop jump-ins off a short hop.
Both take damage well.

The big difference that I see is that Sagat has more and easier ways to link into supers. Also he has more combos in general.

Thus, I feel that Sagat is better and should be in a tier above Blanka. The only exception to this is A-groove where Blanka is better. (Why? No level 3 supers for Sagat.)

BIG BAD MOG

01-31-2003, 06:18 PM

Top- (A/C) Sagat, (A/N) Blanka, (A) Sakura), (A) Rolento, (A/C) Chun-li, (A/N) Bison, (C/N) Cammy, (N) Vega, (C/N) Hibiki, (C/N) Yamazaki

Upper Mid(as in close, but not as damn easy to win)-(A/N) Ceese, (C/N) Iori, (C/N/A) Balrog, (C) Sakura, (N) Chun-li, (A/C) Ken (im not kidding), (A) Eagle, (K) Yamazaki, (A) Kyo

Mid-(C/A) Kim, (C/N) Ryu, (C/A) Mai, (A) Hoamaru(i give up spelling...), (C) Eagle, (C/K) Chang, (C) Kyo, (A) Iori, (A) Joe

Low-any1 that i did not mention. All are in no particualr order, and it is VERY important that u ppl label the grooves as well. A-Blanka and C-Sagat can make a difference.

Evil Iori

01-31-2003, 06:38 PM

Yamazaki shows 2 times on your list, and what makes him good? I always considered him low tier... maybe I just don't play him enough, and hey Scamp. I remember you from SWF.

BIG BAD MOG

01-31-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Evil Iori
Yamazaki shows 2 times on your list, and what makes him good? I always considered him low tier... maybe I just don't play him enough, and hey Scamp. I remember you from SWF.

Me? Easy. On C and N, he can poke exceptionally well. His hk and fp have good distance, and they can combo into his hand normal very nicely. Hes kinda like Geese, but he can reverse everything. Of course, u dont go around abusing that shit 'cuz of them pseudo-cancelling. He has very simple combos that deal pretty nice damage, and his arm normal hits high, mid, and low. Very few moves can actually do that. That makes him good at poking, and at keep-away. K-groove is a kinda funny groove for him. Wutever he reverses adds up to his meter, and u can also combo the reversal to the super in the corner. The guy is mad long. His only drawbacks r his lack of very fast anti-airs, i guess.

Evil Iori

01-31-2003, 08:36 PM

I never played him because the only way to get him into the opponent is through walking in, or rolling. All of his aerial attacks blow ball sac worse then Earnhardt Jr.... damn racing to hell.

Everyone in C, and N have the same poking abilities as any other groove there in, it doesn't change. If you try to combo into his super you'll miss the first hit of it which does nice damage, about as much as a fierce if not more.... and he has sucky combos that are very limited.

BIG BAD MOG

01-31-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Evil Iori
I never played him because the only way to get him into the opponent is through walking in, or rolling. All of his aerial attacks blow ball sac worse then Earnhardt Jr.... damn racing to hell.

Everyone in C, and N have the same poking abilities as any other groove there in, it doesn't change. If you try to combo into his super you'll miss the first hit of it which does nice damage, about as much as a fierce if not more.... and he has sucky combos that are very limited.

C and N have major different poking abilities. In C, ull play more defensively because of no running. N is more aggressive. C u can air block. Yes he cant reeally jump at the guy, but the guy cant necessarily have an easy time getting close to him with jumps. So, they have to walk or roll, and guess wut! Yamazaki likes it that way! Basically i only know of three chars that totally waste him hands down, Sagat, Cammy, and Blanka. Im not too sure wut u mean by the first hit missing of the super. Everything connects with me. Limited combos? hp to 214+P. Simple, poking, decent damage. Every1 is not Sagat.

Evil Iori

01-31-2003, 10:06 PM

Exactly, everyone isn't Sagat, which means not everyone should be top tier. And everytime I try to combo Yama's Gulliotine aftar a fp, the first hit of the gulliotine always misses.... maybe you have some kind of extra special CvS 2 where that doesn't happen, I don't know. Yama doesn't have many combo's either, all he can do is chain one attack off of a lp, or go into a super. All of his other moves are to slow, or not even worth comboing into.

BIG BAD MOG

01-31-2003, 10:25 PM

O, i thought u were connecting it after the reversal. Reversal, super. None of that fp. I meant not everyone is Sagat as in not every1 has combos that deal 4000+ damage w/o supers.

Shin Yamazaki

02-01-2003, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Evil Iori
Exactly, everyone isn't Sagat, which means not everyone should be top tier. And everytime I try to combo Yama's Gulliotine aftar a fp, the first hit of the gulliotine always misses.... maybe you have some kind of extra special CvS 2 where that doesn't happen, I don't know. Yama doesn't have many combo's either, all he can do is chain one attack off of a lp, or go into a super. All of his other moves are to slow, or not even worth comboing into.

You shouldn't even THINK of using c.fierce to combo the Guillotine, just use c.forward...

Also Yama doesn't NEED much combos, just c.fierce, dust kick, serpent slash and you have very good damage. Plus, you can buffer his outside s.fierce. His counter is very useful. Knife moves you forward. Great rolling antiair/supergrab mind games. He's got s.roundhouse and c.fierce (actually stops jumping Blanka and Sagat). His s.forward beats sagat's c.fierce... need I say more?

I think that there should be NO doubt, that Yamazaki IS TOP TIER...

Ouroborus

02-01-2003, 06:55 AM

Lets not forget that A Rolento and A Iori are top tier since they do win tournaments.

and Yamazaki is definitely top tier. He's probably the best after CBS.

Gandido

02-01-2003, 08:43 AM

Ok, I see where this arguement is going. IMO, the tier list is something like:

Top top tier: Sagat, Blanka, Cammy, Sakura (A-Groove mostly)
Top tier (same, but top 4 are way up): , Bison, Chun-Li, Vega (A), Geese (K/C), Hibiki (A/K), Rolento (C/A), Kyo (K/P. Has the best rewards after parries and JDs) and Yamazaki.

Iori isn't anywhere close to top tier anymore. Sure, he has the GC custom of death, a free poke with RC Rekka, but besides that, he doesn't have Kyo's ground game (explains Bas). If it became possible to RC Scum Gale highly consistently, then surely he'd move up to top.

Hibiki is top tier because of the N->C groove switch. We used to get in on her with run and low jump. How do we do that now? It's not simple.

Rolento is dying out in Japan because other than having to RC KK jumps, there isn't really much he can do about "RC x N". Sure, he is really good in a LOT of matchups, like vs. P groove players (j.strong and low strong :)) but he's severely limited. I still play him though, cuz he's my boy and all :)

ServbotRollTrap

02-01-2003, 02:27 PM

Good lord, Yamazaki is not top tier. I mean damn, he doesn't suck, but that motherfucker gets raped by Vega.

jae hoon

02-01-2003, 03:34 PM

Wow no one must play against a good Athena if she isnt even anywhere near the list

1. Blanka
2. Sagat
3. Cammy
4. Yama
5. Chun Li
6. Bison
7. Vega
8. Iori
9. Athena
10. Joe

You can go ahead and laugh if you want for me having Athena up there, but dont do me, she is that damn good.

ServbotRollTrap

02-01-2003, 03:59 PM

Nah thats true, Athena is pretty good. But I don' think she's top tier. Her supers suck shit in my opinion. As for Joe, I wouldn't list his as top ten either, maybe top 15, and that's maybe I stress.

BIG BAD MOG

02-01-2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by ServbotRollTrap
Good lord, Yamazaki is not top tier. I mean damn, he doesn't suck, but that motherfucker gets raped by Vega.

So wut? Rolento gets beaten out by Chun-li. Hes still top. Vega gets beaten by Cammy. U, and many still consider him top.

jae hoon

02-01-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by ServbotRollTrap
Nah thats true, Athena is pretty good. But I don' think she's top tier. Her supers suck shit in my opinion. As for Joe, I wouldn't list his as top ten either, maybe top 15, and that's maybe I stress.

I respect that, its just imo of course. I just feel Athena is that good and actually her super isnt that bad, especially in K Groove where I play her. It doesnt do the greatest damage but its a good defensive manuever and it can be done anywhere on the screen. There is just more to Athena than I believe alot of people realize, Joe 10 was kinda even pushing it for me, not to mention she gives Cammy all kinds of fits. I love Joe and all and about 10 through 15 was kinda a toss up for me truthfully, he does present some problem matchups for guys like Balrog and Vega but gets owned by Yama for free. And who ever say Yama wasnt top tier, you on crack son:lol: jk. Yama is top tier IMO he is just so fucking good and does way to much damage not to be.

NerenatwaH

02-01-2003, 05:56 PM

someone explain how Yama is top tier?

and Athena?

sure her c.fp has GODLY priority.

but that's it.

jae hoon

02-01-2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by NerenatwaH
someone explain how Yama is top tier?

and Athena?

sure her c.fp has GODLY priority.

but that's it.

How isnt Yama top tier, sandkick combos, Supers are really fucking good, Excellent priority with normals and does good damage, long range, etc etc etc. Oh and I like it when people think all Athena has is df makes my job easier :lol:

Gandido

02-01-2003, 07:47 PM

You put in Athena, but forget Hibiki, whom can get around RC'ed pokes and whatnot, can turtle better than any other character in the game (IMO), a bufferable overhead that only cancels if it hits. Hell, with throw xx Custom working, I wouldn't be surprised if you could do throw xx super with her. Sure, Athena has all her tigerknee tricks to gain meter, and a bufferable sweep (which absolutely NO ONE uses except Athena experts), but most characters can get around the Psychoball game by just jumping back, really. (Yes, Jae, I know you can teleport on reaction too, but depending on the characters jump arc, you might get hit on recovery. :()

Yama is up there because of his high zoning abilites. Plus, when he gets a super (lvl2 or lvl 3), whenever he stands right in range for his grab super, it's a 50/50 situation. Sure, there is a magic sweet spot to get rid of s.rh, but he has slashes and sand kicks and other nifty stuff.

You put in Iori, but take out Kyo, who has BETTER RC's and a really more powerful ground game. Against Iori, people can do fast getups after his BnB. Against Kyo, you do that against any of his combos, you eat a grab, anywhere on the screen, which sets you up for all his throw or whatever mindgames. Just watch Makoto's P-Groove Kyo. You'd be SURPRISED.

You take out Geese, and put in Joe. How the HELL is Joe going to get around RCs? Sure, RC Crazy hands is really good, but those are one of the most inconsistent types of RCs (with Scum Gale type moves being the highest). How can Joe constantly stop being rushed with RCs? Geese has his counters that grab SUPERS and RCs. =/ Plus, Geese is a dizzy machine. He nails you once to knock you down... If he gets a crossup, automatically dizzied.

And you LEAVE OUT SAKURA? What's wrong with you people? She is quite easily the 3rd to 6th most dominating character in the game, RC's taken into account.

Like, if i had a stable mindset for the top 7 characters, it would probably be something like:
1) Blanka 2) Sagat 3) Cammy 4) Sakura 5) Bison 6) Chun-Li 7) Vega/Geese

Vega/Geese arguement is due to the fact that Vega is pretty much easier to use properly than Geese.

zuggzugg

02-01-2003, 08:00 PM

Geese! He's the man.

ServbotRollTrap

02-02-2003, 02:22 AM

Gandido, you need to stop worrying about who the japanese players think are good.

Sage

02-02-2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by ServbotRollTrap
Gandido, you need to stop worrying about who the japanese players think are good.

yeah gandido stop kissing up to bas :lol:
IMO vega should be in sakura's place

FluffyXXL

02-02-2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Gandido
And you LEAVE OUT SAKURA? What's wrong with you people? She is quite easily the 3rd to 6th most dominating character in the game, RC's taken into account.

Like, if i had a stable mindset for the top 7 characters, it would probably be something like:
1) Blanka 2) Sagat 3) Cammy 4) Sakura 5) Bison 6) Chun-Li 7) Vega/Geese

Vega/Geese arguement is due to the fact that Vega is pretty much easier to use properly than Geese.

You seem to have a pretty high opinion of Sakura. I would like to know what brings that about. Where I play, there is only one Sak player, so I really don't get to see what's good about her.

And as the Vega/Geese debate, I offer this opinion. Geese is a better character all around and has better match-ups the majority of the time.

Vega, IMO, is really good against A-groove. Most of the time, A-groove can't get in on Vega without wasting meter. You can't jump in on him and rolling more often than not leads to getting thrown. However, C groove can air block to help get in, P can parry, and K can JD. Also, if you look at the next bit of characters you list, they are all playable in A-groove (Sak and Bison more specifically, but Chun and Geese as well.) so natually Vega would seem a good choice.

However, IMO Geese is just as good a character, and the fact that he gets to rush down a lot makes him a better choice in a lot of match-ups. This could just be my opinion, but rushing down seems better than turtling in CVS2.

Gandido

02-02-2003, 09:10 AM

Servbotrolltrap: I made the switch from Iori to Kyo, and I'm having hella better results. I make the whole japanese comment because the game is based around RC, and I evolved into that manner over here. I forced the only other two guys that use roll grooves over here to RC. Guess it's just the way it is =/ If you want to contrast my view of characters vs. what the japanese think, go right ahead. I'll start by helping you with two things:
1) Japanese don't have Yamazaki in the top tiers
2) Japanese don't have Vega in the top tiers

So I'm not just speaking for the japanese, because hey, I'm not. But that IS my opinion, overall. And another thing: If the japanese players have been more consistent overall in getting in the wins, why WOULDN'T I focus more on their part than on the US part? It's not like there is much influence from anything other than vids over here in Puerto Rico. The only random US connection we get is when Sage randomly drops down here to show us wtf is going on in the states. If I had a choice, I'd STILL focus more on the japanese players. That's just the way I operate. Sorry if its to your dismay, but that's me.

FluffyXXL: Extremely good RCs. Dive kick. s.rh. Crossup forward. RC fierce fireball is a monster in the corner, she recovers in time to throw you if you roll out on reaction. Only ways out are to roll on prediction or to jump out really early. Her dive kick has WAYYY too much priority, plus you can use it as a mixup game after a knockdown. Her RC RH hurricane kick is really powerful, and if they can crouch it, use the forwardone. And if you're too far away, you can just randomly mash s.rh, lol. Also, she has a real good throw, distance and damage wise, plus the fact that they can't quickrise after is really good. Combo into custom is REALLY easy. Hit a low short, low jab, and kiss out 9500 damage. Gets around P/K groove with her custom and the rest, maybe not C to its full extent, with her RCs.

Sage: I love you too :) I don't think Vega should be where Sakura is. Maybe where Bison is, but that's iffy. The only Vega I always end up playing against is Mario's. I need variety to be able to judge differently.

ServbotRollTrap

02-02-2003, 12:40 PM

I guess I just took it out on you. Cuz all these people that play are such fuckin biters. If the Japanese started playing S-groove Maki, everyone over here in the US, and everyone on SRK would think Maki is the best and S-groove is her best groove. I mean look at the C-groove trend. Before the japanese started playing it, NO ONE in the world played C-groove, everyone was either A, N, or K. Now I see videos of John Choi playing C-groove, I thought this guy was hardcore N groove. So it just pisses me off, that we have so many damn followers. I didn't mean to take it out on you.

FluffyXXL

02-02-2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Gandido

FluffyXXL: Extremely good RCs. Dive kick. s.rh. Crossup forward. RC fierce fireball is a monster in the corner, she recovers in time to throw you if you roll out on reaction. Only ways out are to roll on prediction or to jump out really early. Her dive kick has WAYYY too much priority, plus you can use it as a mixup game after a knockdown. Her RC RH hurricane kick is really powerful, and if they can crouch it, use the forwardone. And if you're too far away, you can just randomly mash s.rh, lol. Also, she has a real good throw, distance and damage wise, plus the fact that they can't quickrise after is really good. Combo into custom is REALLY easy. Hit a low short, low jab, and kiss out 9500 damage. Gets around P/K groove with her custom and the rest, maybe not C to its full extent, with her RCs.

Yes, I understand all the stuff that makes her good, but how does she deal with Sagat, Blanka, Bison, Cammy, etc. Especially Sagat, Blanka and Cammy, seeing as how those are probably the most commonly played characters.

Evil Iori

02-04-2003, 09:30 PM

bump j00

Keitarousegawa

02-05-2003, 12:53 PM

Hey what about Kim? Hes got to at least be upper tier. He can destory Sagat at times. Don't know so much about Blanka though as I always have a tough time with him. Blanka is top tier though, though you do need to know how to play as him like any other charecters. Scrubs see Blanka dominating then pick him & get beat.

ServbotRollTrap

02-05-2003, 01:19 PM

Kim top tier :confused:

Fritz

02-05-2003, 01:38 PM

Everyone has their opinions, but the tiering is changing a bit....

Blanka and Sagat will always be top tier... but in teh beginning, guys like vega who were top tier are now considered upper mid tier. A- Rolento went up the latter for a bit, but is now a mid tier char. Bison was always up there.. but IMO, he should be #2 over sagat cause of his A groove and his multiple setups for it. Sakura went from very middle-lower tier right up to top 5 if tyou ask me simply cause of her A-groove and her decent RC's... maybe not so much over here right now, but its fuckin scary in japan. Yama i think got pushed back a bit.

IMO:

1. Blanka
2. A-Bison
3. Sagat
4. Sakura
5. Chun
6. Cammy
7. Yama
8. A-Iori
9. Geese
10. Vega maybe

bokchoy

02-06-2003, 01:15 AM

1.Blanka
2.A-Bison
3.Sagat
4.Cammy
5.A-Sakura
6.Chun-Li
7.Vega
8.Honda
9.Yamazaki
10.Hibiki

FluffyXXL

02-06-2003, 11:15 AM

It's pretty obvious that Blanka and Sagat (in alphabetical order) are the top two characters in the game. If you want to try to rank beyond that, you'll run into a lot of problems.

I read a post by JChensor a while back that made a lot of sense to me. To paraphrase, he said that it's really hard to tier in CVS2 because you don't need to beat every character down, you need to be able to "get the job done." By that, he meant that if you can go in with a sub-tier character, and score 80%+ damage, it makes it that much easier for your next character to go in, finish the job and probably get most/all of you life back for the next fight, making it even. Now, because pretty much all characters can go in and get the job done, it becomes really hard to say which ones are good or not. It generally comes down to which anchor you pick and his match-ups against your opponents anchor. This isn't always true however, because not everyone plays R1, R1, R2.

There are exceptions to the rule. Any character who can dish out an amazing amount of damage easily as an R1 is definitely better than normal. (IMO, this is why A-groove is good is because R1s can do more than normal damage with CCs) For example, A-Sakura, A-Bison, A-Geese, and A-Todo all have CCs that can be comboed easily and that end with a lot of quick hits, thus making their CCs more damaging for an R1 because the damage won't scale down below 100 points. If you want to do the math, compare the proportion of damage that the characters do from R1 to R2, and then compare that with the amount of damage that the R1 can do with a CC, and you'll find that proportion to be better.

It is also hard to rank some characters because of the different grooves. Some grooves work better against some characters than would others. Example: Cammy. She is really hard pressed to win fights against parry grooves. Parrying is really bad for her poking game, and she doesn't have good low pokes that have the range or combo-ability of her other moves. She basically has to be really close to hit a C.Forward, and then I don't think it will combo unless it's a level 3 super (I could be wrong on this, so correct me if that's so). Just defend gets to tap downback with no fear of anything against her. So what if you miss-time it. You'll just block. These two grooves perform better against Cammy than do the other grooves.

As for the anchor battle, there are some characters that can beat Sagat and Blanka, but usually not both. Depending on the anchor of choice, you'll do better or worse with your anchor. At this point, it all comes down to beating those two, as they're the most common anchors.

To sum it up, CvS2 is all about your first two characters getting the job done, and then your anchor's match-ups, with a few exceptions. Grooves also throw another variable into the situation. Sagat/Sagat/R2Blanka reigns supreme.

Dr.B

02-06-2003, 01:44 PM

Here's my list:

1)Sagat
2)Cammy
3)Blanka
4)Bison
5)Yama
6)Vega
7)Honda
8)Chun-Li
9)Iori
10)Athena

Prolly not in the best order but most of them are the top hitters of CvS2 imo....

-B.
:D

gogeta559

02-07-2003, 01:19 AM

so vega blank bison are top tier <-- thats my team :D

jae hoon

02-07-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Gandido
[B]You put in Athena, but forget Hibiki, whom can get around RC'ed pokes and whatnot, can turtle better than any other character in the game (IMO), a bufferable overhead that only cancels if it hits. Hell, with throw xx Custom working, I wouldn't be surprised if you could do throw xx super with her. Sure, Athena has all her tigerknee tricks to gain meter, and a bufferable sweep (which absolutely NO ONE uses except Athena experts), but most characters can get around the Psychoball game by just jumping back, really. (Yes, Jae, I know you can teleport on reaction too, but depending on the characters jump arc, you might get hit on recovery. :()

Ok jump backwards I really dont care, I can either do another Psychoball until you dont jump backwards, or I can predict your going to jump backwards throw the Psychoball then imediately rush in. There are to many intangables for that to be a solid arguement. I do feel Hibiki is good but I just dont feel she is as good as Athena. It usually varies on the person, each person has an individual list on who they think is the best. I just feel Athena has to many mind games at her disposal not to mention the priority in her df, hell even sf is good to use. I still feel she is drastically underrated in K Groove as well, she still has everything she needs just no roll which really doesnt matter for most characters.

Yama is up there because of his high zoning abilites. Plus, when he gets a super (lvl2 or lvl 3), whenever he stands right in range for his grab super, it's a 50/50 situation. Sure, there is a magic sweet spot to get rid of s.rh, but he has slashes and sand kicks and other nifty stuff. [/quote]

No arguement there, Yama is a damn machine.

[qoute] You put in Iori, but take out Kyo, who has BETTER RC's and a really more powerful ground game. Against Iori, people can do fast getups after his BnB. Against Kyo, you do that against any of his combos, you eat a grab, anywhere on the screen, which sets you up for all his throw or whatever mindgames. Just watch Makoto's P-Groove Kyo. You'd be SURPRISED.

True but Iori is still the better character, Kyo's ground game is also harder to set up as opposed to Iori's who are very easy to do. Iori has one of the few rolls in the game that is actually good to use and his combos are easier to pull off. Alot of Iori is just a fact that its an ease situation as to where you have to battle way to hard with Kyo. I know Kyo was the first character I used in CvS2, I still like him but Iori is better.

You take out Geese, and put in Joe. How the HELL is Joe going to get around RCs? Sure, RC Crazy hands is really good, but those are one of the most inconsistent types of RCs (with Scum Gale type moves being the highest). How can Joe constantly stop being rushed with RCs? Geese has his counters that grab SUPERS and RCs. =/ Plus, Geese is a dizzy machine. He nails you once to knock you down... If he gets a crossup, automatically dizzied.

Like I said in my last post at about 10 to really 20 is pretty much a toss up, I mean you got Joe, Ken, Ryu, Geese, Rock, Sakura, Hibiki etc etc etc. So then its more of a matter of who best suits your style or what groove you play etc.

And you LEAVE OUT SAKURA? What's wrong with you people? She is quite easily the 3rd to 6th most dominating character in the game, RC's taken into account.

True if you can RC, what you also have to remember is probably at least 75 percent of the people out there right now cant RC. Not to mention RC can be negated by either P or K groove so even thats not a sure bet. Ive said since the game came out Sakura was good but no one believed me until now. I just feel there is still better characters out there.

I also keep in mind both the Japanese and American ranked characters as well, hell if someone wanted to they could have throw Eagle into that arguement because of his abilities in A Groove.

bangoo

02-11-2003, 01:59 AM

what's a top tier? what's a low tier?

jae hoon

02-11-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by bangoo
what's a top tier? what's a low tier?

Your kidding right?:confused:

Rock-sama

02-12-2003, 03:13 PM

Blanka?! Blanka! top tier? good char. but top tier he is not, sorry guys but Blanka sucks limp dick to Rock and Nako. nako owns blanka in the air and she is faster.

GF2

02-12-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Rock-sama
Blanka?! Blanka! top tier? good char. but top tier he is not, sorry guys but Blanka sucks limp dick to Rock and Nako. nako owns blanka in the air and she is faster.

:eek:

:confused:

:D

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:rolleyes:

box

02-13-2003, 10:32 AM

It seems to me that Blanka/Sagat/Cammy are the undisputed top tiers. I mean even Capcom toned DOWN their damage in CvS2 EO.

In terms of vitality, Capcom toned UP Kyosuke and Yun. That seems logical.
In terms of damage, Capcom toned UP Zangief, Vice, Kyosuke, Maki and EAGLE. All of them seem to belong there except Eagle.

Does Capcom think Eagle's low tier??

What are your thoughts to this??

GF2

02-13-2003, 04:45 PM

My thoughts? I think they should put out an arcade revision of CvS2 with those same adjustments so that it'll be more varied/balanced and regain interest, just like they did with some of their older games. I sure as hell would like to see some Yuns and Kyosukes in serious play. :bluu:

Dnut

02-15-2003, 04:20 PM

I think C-groove Eagle is close to being one of the top tiers......he has many good links, good upclose and long range pokes, a decent anti air, counters, a fast roll, does good damage, and a super that is very easy to combo into.

although his special moves are crappy, his good pokes makes up for the specials. Eagle's links are easy and can easily combo into the qcfx2=punch super. Eagle's definetly close to being top tier.

CapMaster

02-15-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Dnut
I think C-groove Eagle is close to being one of the top tiers......he has many good links, good upclose and long range pokes, a decent anti air, counters, a fast roll, does good damage, and a super that is very easy to combo into.

although his special moves are crappy, his good pokes makes up for the specials. Eagle's links are easy and can easily combo into the qcfx2=punch super. Eagle's definetly close to being top tier.

I agree...I've been an Eagle player since the game first came out and still am. I still feel he don't get the credit he deserves. As good as he is in A, he's still very good in C.

Musourenka

02-19-2003, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by box
It seems to me that Blanka/Sagat/Cammy are the undisputed top tiers. I mean even Capcom toned DOWN their damage in CvS2 EO.

In terms of vitality, Capcom toned UP Kyosuke and Yun. That seems logical.
In terms of damage, Capcom toned UP Zangief, Vice, Kyosuke, Maki and EAGLE. All of them seem to belong there except Eagle.

Does Capcom think Eagle's low tier??

What are your thoughts to this??

Since RCs are NOT invincible in EO, and with the changes you mentioned, how would the tiers change from the arcade version?

jae hoon

02-20-2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Rock-sama
Blanka?! Blanka! top tier? good char. but top tier he is not, sorry guys but Blanka sucks limp dick to Rock and Nako. nako owns blanka in the air and she is faster.

Dis guy must be smoking dope for him to say Blanka isnt top tier.

kcxj

02-20-2003, 11:20 PM

dnut:

Even without RC's, P-groove, or JD, Hibiki can still own up fireball characters really bad. Against Ryu, Hibiki doesn't even need run at all (also a keep in mind a good Ryu will rush against Hibiki anyway). All Hibiki needs to do is slowly advance forward until she's in the sweet spot range where FB's for Ryu aren't safe anymore. QCF+HP will go under hadokens, Hibiki can jump in easily if a FB does come, or Hibiki can just harrass with d.HP or d.MP a lot.

Although you said at least 25% of the characters in the game have FB, about 90% of them don't have any answer to Hibiki's jump-ins. If I'm Chun-li, I know better than to try to challenge Hibiki's jump-in HK with my own d.HK etc... Ryu can't DP Hibiki's j.MP that well either. In fact, if anybody ever tries to throw a FB from full screen, Hibiki can actually, on reaction, do super jump MP, d.LP xx QCF+MP for a three hit combo more often than not. Obviously, everything I wrote is not 100% set in stone.. there are exceptions (athena, morrigan etc...), but in general Hibiki should have no problems against FB's whatsoever.

kcxj

02-21-2003, 03:50 PM

Dnut:

Ryu smokes Hibiki up close. d.MP patterns, jabs, sweeps, HP's. Once Ryu gets a knockdown, and Hibiki doens't have parry, jd, or rc.. nevermind, it's all over. Hibiki is either forced to block everything (especially when Ryu's in a run groove) and gets guard broken, or get hits alot and becomes dizzy. It's at that sweet spot range where Hibiki controls the match the most. Anything closer than that is when Ryu has the advantage.

Once Ryu gets in, he wins. It's getting in that's the hardest part in the first place :). Not easy at all. So Hibiki wins this match up for the most part imo.

If Ryu throws a jab FB from far away, just jump straight up. He's trying to bait you to jump at him (so he can aa you), that's why he throws it in the first place.

Anyway, my point is.. Hibiki definately does not need RC's in order to win this match. Just zone like a mofo (don't ever let Ryu get close). FB's shouldn't be a problem at all if you play right.

Edit: Played Ryu in a local tourney yesterday. One of the Hibiki players was beating my far s.HK anti-air with j.MP actually. The sword would poke me in the eyes, while my foot just sort of whiffed underneath her. Pretty stupid... If anybody cares, one of my happy friends taught me that walk slightly forward while Hibiki is still in the air, then d.HP is actually more reliable for Ryu in this match-up. It neutralizes the cheap angle at which Hibiki's j.MP comes in.

Rock-sama

02-24-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by jae hoon

Dis guy must be smoking dope for him to say Blanka isnt top tier.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

ok ok fine putting a bullshit aside, a decent rock howard in any grov. that goes against a "better" blanka(ex. K or p) will have a very hard time winning and a good rock any grov. will have a greater advantage over blanka any grov. simply because rock has more options to punish... d.fierce is very predictable.
and i dont smoke dope

K3n Mast3rs

02-26-2003, 06:36 AM

Well as for top tiers i dont wanna post mine cuz its never right :bluu: my top tier team is Akuma/Balrog/BisonR2

This team does everything and can beat everyone...

Akuma just owns everyone but sometimes hibiki gets in the way...akuma has wicked chain combos leading to bigger CC's

Balrog stops players like hibiki with his long fierce...His roll is my fave move...roll, fierce gets most fireballers

Bison just has the ultimate CC so if you can pull that off youve won...now lets hear the abuse ;)

TheFlood

02-26-2003, 02:26 PM

ok ok fine putting a bullshit aside, a decent rock howard in any grov. that goes against a "better" blanka(ex. K or p) will have a very hard time winning and a good rock any grov. will have a greater advantage over blanka any grov. simply because rock has more options to punish... d.fierce is very predictable.

2 quick things,

If "options" is all you need to be top tier then Dhalsim is god tier too. I'd take 2 great moves over 7 average ones any day. And classic, how you pitted Rocks entire offensive repitoire against Blanka's cr. fierce and then said Rock would win.

jae hoon

02-26-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by TheFlood

2 quick things,

If "options" is all you need to be top tier then Dhalsim is god tier too. I'd take 2 great moves over 7 average ones any day. And classic, how you pitted Rocks entire offensive repitoire against Blanka's cr. fierce and then said Rock would win.

Thats what I was fixing to say lol, that only leaves me with the anti air blanka ball, df fierce, back roundhouse, crouching strong, standing roundhouse, well you get the picture. Blanka has alot more in the arsenal to take Rock down.

Rock-sama

02-26-2003, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by jae hoon

Thats what I was fixing to say lol, that only leaves me with the anti air blanka ball, df fierce, back roundhouse, crouching strong, standing roundhouse, well you get the picture. Blanka has alot more in the arsenal to take Rock down.

:confused:
I understand not very many have seen a rock howard played well but a jumping jab will stop an anti-air blan. ball any day and most of his moves for that matter, and the guy that said "ROCK's entire arsenal...." buddy... you dont know the half of it... most people dont use him Because of depth.... dhalsim? whatever....:rolleyes:
and standing roundhouse?? how far has that gotten you? are u just naming attacks or what? Rock has an anti-crossover and the most effective round house in the game so what do you do with your blanka when you cant even jump in? give me an attack with blanka and Ill tell why it wont work against rock. (all this is being stated on a N. Rock)
but i will admit that rock will have trouble with a good sagat player. by the way im not talking trash so just consider this.. try it out.

FluffyXXL

02-26-2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Rock-sama

give me an attack with blanka and Ill tell why it wont work against rock. (all this is being stated on a N. Rock)

What does Rock do against RC electricity? Does J.Jab beat that? What about Blanka C.Forward? How about OC.Fierce slide? How about Short jump Fierce?

kcxj

02-27-2003, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Rock-sama
I understand not very many have seen a rock howard played well but a jumping jab will stop an anti-air blan. ball any day and most of his moves for that matter, and the guy that said "ROCK's entire arsenal...." (snip)

You just said a Rock jumping jab will beat an anti-air Blanka ball. Either the Blanka you've played against are really really bad or you've never even played this match-up before (you're just going by theory fighter). Either way, any Blanka with some common sense will just j.HP or regular RC ball instead. But since you brought it up, a deep upball does beats Rock's jump jab clean last I checked.

Outside of K or P groove, Rock has a tough time against any decent Blanka IMO. He can't even consistently punish the ball without having to use a level 1.

jae hoon

02-27-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by kcxj

You just said a Rock jumping jab will beat and anti-air Blanka ball. Either the Blanka you've played against are really really bad or you've never even played this match-up before (you're just going by theory fighter). Either way, any Blanka with some common sense will just j.HP or regular RC ball instead. But since you brought it up, a deep upball does beats Rock's jump jab clean last I checked.

Outside of K or P groove, Rock has a tough time against any decent Blanka IMO. He can't even consistently punish the ball without having to use a level 1.

Thanks that basically what I was gonna say, I didnt take it offensively Rock- Sama, the first comment I was just joking around. I dont mind a character debate at all, but yes Blanka's standing roundhouse can beat Rock's jumping jab most of the time as can the upward Blanka ball. I used to play Rock to ya know.

Vega_04

02-27-2003, 05:38 PM

hey who do u all think the hardest peaple 2 beat r????

jae hoon

02-27-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Vega_04
hey who do u all think the hardest peaple 2 beat r????

IMO

C Groove Ryo - Nothing but pures nastiness, you want to see a turtle, play a good C Groove Ryo. Does nothing but turtle, cant jump in on him, his uppercut has the highest proirity in the game that I know of. He has decent fireballs and comboable supers.

K Groove Hibiki - Takes away any weakness she may have had because of K Groove, just sit back and anti air the shit out of everything and alot of ducking jabs, shorts and fowards into qcf + p.

P Zangief - Absolute nightmare to play against, the only thing I have found for me atleast to counteract a good P Gief is K Groove Nakoruru.

Hellion

02-28-2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by kcxj

You just said a Rock jumping jab will beat an anti-air Blanka ball. Either the Blanka you've played against are really really bad or you've never even played this match-up before (you're just going by theory fighter). Either way, any Blanka with some common sense will just j.HP or regular RC ball instead. But since you brought it up, a deep upball does beats Rock's jump jab clean last I checked.

Outside of K or P groove, Rock has a tough time against any decent Blanka IMO. He can't even consistently punish the ball without having to use a level 1.

Rock's High Counter does stuff RCs. If anyone got that predictable I wouldn't hesitate to switch over and abuse the High Counter the moment I saw blanka take off.

kcxj

02-28-2003, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by Hellion

Rock's High Counter does stuff RCs. If anyone got that predictable I wouldn't hesitate to switch over and abuse the High Counter the moment I saw blanka take off.

Wow, you must be the best. Crack countering every single blanka ball I do on reaction! I'm scared now... I'm never going to do blanka balls again (or even bother mixing it up by just poking or going low with a slide instead).

Try high countering my RC ball at point blank to sweep range. Then tell me whether or not you can counter the moment everytime you see blanka take off then.

edit: I see you play Rock K-groove my friend. Why wouldn't you just JD the ball then run up sweep instead? Probably does more damage and you get meter to boot too.

Hellion

03-02-2003, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by kcxj

Wow, you must be the best. Crack countering every single blanka ball I do on reaction! I'm scared now... I'm never going to do blanka balls again (or even bother mixing it up by just poking or going low with a slide instead).

Try high countering my RC ball at point blank to sweep range. Then tell me whether or not you can counter the moment everytime you see blanka take off then.

edit: I see you play Rock K-groove my friend. Why wouldn't you just JD the ball then run up sweep instead? Probably does more damage and you get meter to boot too.

My apologies, I didn't mean to imply that I use the counters Kcxj...
The High Counter is just an option (the Rising Tackle being another), and I only use it on slower RCs... I just meant that if it was predictable, I would use them.
It probably isn't possible for a human being to do in the first place to high counter that close...
Let's just say it was figurative.
Typically I do as you mentioned in your edit... But I prefer his jab to strong hardedges over a run up sweep, I find them safer and faster, and arguably better recovery.

Hellion

03-02-2003, 02:40 AM

Besides, Rock's name shouldn't have even been mentioned on this Thread in the first place. He's good, but not Top Tier.

kcxj

03-02-2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Hellion
The High Counter is just an option (the Rising Tackle being another), and I only use it on slower RCs... I just meant that if it was predictable, I would use them.

Hehe... I knew what you meant in the first place. I should be the one apologizing actually. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a sarcastic dick when I post in these forums that's all. Yeah, the counter stops an RC. I just wouldn't use it as a direct counter (Use move A to stop move B etc...). But... if the opponent you're playing really is a total idiot (horribly predictable) then hell yeah, abuse this move like there's no tomorrow then obviously :lol:.

b4k4

03-02-2003, 01:39 PM

Is it just me, or do these hypothetical matches get really lame? This isn't necissarily directed at either of you (Hellion, or KCXJ). But Rock-Sama, coming in here and telling us how your Rock will master a Blanka being played some very seasoned veterans here on the board is deplorable. I see this happening everywhere, and though this certainly isn't the worst case, it's one that needs to be adressed none-the-less. Everyone has a counter for everything, there is no move in this game that will leave you 100% same all the time, the question is whether or not you are able to apply your characters strengths to your opponents weaknesses effectively and consistantly. To come in here and tell some of the strongest gamers around that 2 years of experience wasn't enough to tell that Blanka, who is generally accepted as being one of the two strongest characters in the game (Sagat, being the other) shouldn't be considered top-tier, and that Rock will cut him up, is ludacris, to say the least. Rock has some nice options, he can punish Blanka, but so can everyone (I think :p). All told, he just doesn't belong among the power-houses of the game.

b4k4

03-02-2003, 01:55 PM

Just a thought that I've had after the fact (completely unrelated to my last post). What is it that keeps Rugal from being considered a top-tier? He seems to have all of what it takes to make a powerful character: High vitality (second highest group in the game, according to JChens' GameFAQs guide :)), decent projectiles, good anti-air, damaging and varied supers, high-damaging normals... and yet nobody even considers him for top-tier lists. What is it that holds him back from being considered a true monster in this game? (I think I'm going to make a new thread on this in the general forum, but I want to get some input here, to see if there is some blatantly obvious reason for which he isn't :p)

popoblo

03-02-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by b4k4
Just a thought that I've had after the fact (completely unrelated to my last post). What is it that keeps Rugal from being considered a top-tier? He seems to have all of what it takes to make a powerful character: High vitality (second highest group in the game, according to JChens' GameFAQs guide :)), decent projectiles, good anti-air, damaging and varied supers, high-damaging normals... and yet nobody even considers him for top-tier lists. What is it that holds him back from being considered a true monster in this game? (I think I'm going to make a new thread on this in the general forum, but I want to get some input here, to see if there is some blatantly obvious reason for which he isn't :p)

1 word- priority. he doesn't have much. he'll be outpoked by the rest of the top tiers anyday. that's not to say he can't be good, but it is a major problem.

any for whoever said dhalsim was top tier... go dload xerocrew's cammy tactics vid (really old), it shows cammy stuffing his long range pokes with her crouching fierces and lp.

50mOrEcEnTz

03-02-2003, 05:06 PM

I believe k-rock can hang with many of the top characters, including blanka and sagat, im not saying he is as good or on their level, but I am saying it is a matchup to where your like "aw....im screwed, he isn't as good and i can't win." His c.rh is a VERY good poke in my experience, and if you jd blanka's/sagat's poke, it will either hit, or they will block it and take them out of the poking range they probably prefer to be in.

k-morrigan is really working out for me as well. I know that she isn't low tier for sure, I just want to know if she is in the top of the middle tier, because in k-groove....she seems to have everything but a great poke [im not naive, i know that in order to be top tier you have to have a good or godly poke]. she can use her dp or s.rh as an anti-air, her run/flight serves as a hellacious small jump, its quicker and comes at you from a better angle, and will lead to a knockdown due to easy combo capabilities. To me it seems that she has one of THE best rushdowns in the game...maybe that is just my stupid ass talking, but i want yall's opinions.

other honorable mentions in k-groove: kyo, hibiki, sakura

jreinert13

03-03-2003, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by 50mOrEcEnTz
I believe k-rock can hang with many of the top characters, including blanka and sagat, im not saying he is as good or on their level, but I am saying it is a matchup to where your like "aw....im screwed, he isn't as good and i can't win." His c.rh is a VERY good poke in my experience, and if you jd blanka's/sagat's poke, it will either hit, or they will block it and take them out of the poking range they probably prefer to be in.

k-morrigan is really working out for me as well. I know that she isn't low tier for sure, I just want to know if she is in the top of the middle tier, because in k-groove....she seems to have everything but a great poke [im not naive, i know that in order to be top tier you have to have a good or godly poke]. she can use her dp or s.rh as an anti-air, her run/flight serves as a hellacious small jump, its quicker and comes at you from a better angle, and will lead to a knockdown due to easy combo capabilities. To me it seems that she has one of THE best rushdowns in the game...maybe that is just my stupid ass talking, but i want yall's opinions.

other honorable mentions in k-groove: kyo, hibiki, sakura

K Morrigan is definetly a solid character. If you play someone who isn't used to fighting her you can rape them very easily.
Oh and btw S.Strong is a GODLY poke, it's got speed and range. Not much damage but it's bufferable into her fireball, which was very effective before RC but still good.
C/S.Forward stuffs almost everything at the right range.

Rock-sama

03-03-2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by b4k4
Is it just me, or do these hypothetical matches get really lame? This isn't necissarily directed at either of you (Hellion, or KCXJ). But Rock-Sama, coming in here and telling us how your Rock will master a Blanka being played some very seasoned veterans here on the board is deplorable. (...snip) sorry i took so long to reply. ok lets get a few things straight. i didnt crawl out of the garbage a few minutes ago, ive been playing this game as much as most everyone else here so Ill go ahead and eat my "give me an attack with blanka and Ill tell why it wont work against rock. " there, see i know that blanka does very well against most character but i honestly believe that rock has the advantage over blanka in many ways, i know the masses will laugh at me or what not so let me just say that blanka is top tier BUT rock will kick his ass. ridicule! go ahead .since just about everyone that hasnt fought against a good rock howard player with their blanka will disagree and it will only end up as a childish "mine is better than yours" debate so let me just wish all of the blanka players that replied to me, i hope all of you go on and become world champions of cvs2 and maybe even meet voltron and befriend gregory( from southpark:D ) but when you go to your local arcade and some guy using rock beats your blanka, i hope you say, "hey. that 'rock-sama' lad was right, drat!" :evil:

b4k4

03-04-2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Rock-sama
Blanka?! Blanka! top tier? good char. but top tier he is not...

Originally posted by Rock-sama
...so let me just say that blanka is top tier...

I was pointing out that you came in here and said that Blanka was not a top-tier... and I didn't say that Rock was a bad character, or that Blanka would always beat him... all I said was that Blanka is generally considered an overpowered character. I think that it can be agreed that in a match between Rock and Blanka, with both players being of equal skill, Blanka is likely to come out on top (not to say thar Rock couldn't win, but I'd only give him 20%-30% total win rate).

mexxlover

03-05-2003, 04:53 AM

questions;
How universal should a character be in order to be considered top tier? I mean, I'm damned scared of Sakura, but only if she's in A-groove...does this qualify her for a top tier ranking? Character like Sagat and Blanka seem to dominate no matter the groove. Should groove play a role in tiers or not? Also, i find my list varries depening what groove i'm playing against. Versus K and P I'd prefer Sagat to Cammy, but Cammy rather than Sagat against C. How much should this factor weigh in?

Anyways, my tier list
(non-groove specific)
1. Sagat, Blanka, Cammy (i can't pick one)
2. Yamazaki
3. Vega, Chun Li, Iori
4. Everyone else
5. Kyosuke...poor kyosuke, at least you ruled in project justice.

Rock-sama

03-05-2003, 10:58 AM

i didnt take anything personal... :D

anyway who is considered the worst char. in the game? (maybe i should start a thread...) in my opinion, i dont consider maki practical or of any use? in any groove...

Zell9

03-05-2003, 02:01 PM

i'd say it matters to the person who plays the game to me top tier are terry joe kim ryu king maki and rugal everyonw else is secondary if nothing at all

50mOrEcEnTz

03-05-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Zell9
i'd say it matters to the person who plays the game to me top tier are terry joe kim ryu king maki and rugal everyonw else is secondary if nothing at all

shhhhhhhhhh......before u get flamed by a bunch of angry SRK members.

im going to try not and flame and just say that I don't agre with....not one of your...umm..."canidates" for top tier.

Zell9

03-05-2003, 09:02 PM

suk or srk don't care those are the characters who i think are top tier because those are the characters i am good with and characters i like to use

Rock-sama

03-05-2003, 09:38 PM

ultimately, the better player will win regardless of character choice in this game unless your a mvc2 player... you ll need sentinel to win because the character is that powerful, this is a good game (cvs2) because a sagat can still lose against a nakoruru if the player is better. any who......( <---doesnt want to type anymore.... )
and i can still RC into my slumber attack

mexxlover

03-07-2003, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Zell9
suk or srk don't care those are the characters who i think are top tier because those are the characters i am good with and characters i like to use

The purpose of top tier lists isn't to establish the only characters that CAN win battles but the characters that have the easiest time doing so, disregarding skill of the user. For example, i love using Ken and i'm fairly good with him, but he'll never be top tier. He will win me matches, and i'll have fun playing with him, but, purely from a gameplay point of view, he isn't as strong as Sagat. Will any Sagat beat any Ken every time? Of course not. It all comes down to skill. But when equally skilled players fight eachother, the characters they use make a huge differnece in the outcome of the match, thus creating tiers.

uber_soldat

03-08-2003, 02:54 PM

Sagat -

He has some of the strongest pokes in the game (c. fierce, s. forward, c. forward, s. short) along with great stamina. This makes him low risk character. His hugely prioritized j. rh gives him dizzy potential while trading with anti-airs because of his stamina and dizzy meter. He can connect his supers easily off c. fierce, c. forward, and has some of the most powerful super cancels in C-groove. He has safe supers (tiger raid and low tiger shot) which can come out of his roll (which is one of the best rolls in the game, 4 frame recovery). He has generally safe moves to get in on you (tiger knee if you wanna do it quick), and s. forward (if you wanna back em in the corner gradually). He has crazy mindgames off his low recovery moves, such as blocked tiger knee, super low tiger shot, tiger raid because of his invincible Tiger Uppercut. Speaking of which, he has on the best anti-airs in the game (if not the best) because of its invincibility, difficulty to parry or just defend, and damage. He can also chip safely is time or life is running down (c. fierce xx super low tiger shot). Finally, he has a great crossup short, which leads into a GREAT bread and butter combo he has, which is basically, s. jab x 2-3 xx super or tiger knee. Oh i forgot, he also has great kick throw which does HUGE damage, even to higher ratio characters. He is NO DOUBT one of the best in the game.

Blanka -

He is IMO not as good as Sagat. He still has great abusable pokes (c. forward, c. fierce, slide, s. rh, s. strong), but being a charge character, he can't capitalize of them in the same way Sagat can. He is limited by his charge, both in supers and specials. He does have the bread and butter of c. short, s. jab xx super or fierce ball, but that happens more off a crossup (something planned) not some random poke (which Sagat and other characters can do. Speaking of which, he has one of the most abusable crossups in the game (j. forward) which can lead to many other crossups, which can lead to guard breaks and supers or just mere frustration which can make the opponent fuck up and lose his focus. This is a thing I would like to mention that IMO is very unique to Blanka. Blanka is a VERY frustrating character. He alone possesses this frustration factor to annoy even the most hardened players. He also makes annoying sounds when he hits you, just like Storm. He has one of the (if not THE) best anti-air supers in the game at LVL3, because it kills crossups, although the downside is that it's so easily parried, JF'ed because it's only 1 hit. Blanka's jumping rh is VERY abusable since it has such high priority. Adding to this his very high and fast jump, he can quickly cover ground to punish fireballs and such. He also has good anti-air in the upward ball because instead of being like a traditional anti-air and doing it deep, it's easy to perform and so it usually connects when the jumper is in midjump, and so many times they don't expect it and get hit, even if they are using C-groove (air block) or P/K (parry). Blanka's fierce throw is also very good for taking a lot of damage, even higher ratios (just like Sagat's kick throw).

continued later....

FMJaguar

03-08-2003, 03:23 PM

Well this thread seems much more enjoyable, but a little random. IMO the only real agreeable way to rank 'tiers' is to calcuate every match in the game, and see who wins the most. There is a lot of debate about who 'can' beat who, but i think we're missing some things. Sure i can beat generic blanka with Ryu most of the time, but he doesn't win that match. The question is with two well informed players playing a long set of games what characters will fare better... i only have a couple things to start this with:

Sagat/Blanka would most likely be the only 'top' tier characters. There are many characters that do well, but sagat/blanka dominate more matches than the other characters (8-2 or better), the 2nd tiers win them but not as convincingly.

Blanka would probably be #1, IMO he only loses to vega (claw), and has toss ups with bison/sagat. People are saying geese, but I would have to see it with tournament level (i'm only pressing the buttons i need to, and if you whiff a move from half screen i get a free super, and if you don't i get to RC you to death) blanka.

I see how rock can compete, but IMO he has to take way too many chances to do so, playing vs blanka is like playing as strider in MvC2, on paper strider is top tier vs everyone, but in reality you have to work too much, and when you guess wrong, you die for free.

FluffyXXL

03-09-2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by FMJaguar

-snipped-

I figured i'd snip it to save space.

IMO, it's way too hard to make tiers for this game accurately. With 44 (i think) characters and 6 grooves, you have way too many match-ups to go through. Plus, a lot of those close 5-5, 6-4, and maybe even 7-3 match-ups aren't as bad because of the way the ratio system is set up. I mean, even if you barely win a match-up, it doesn't mean as much as it did in previous games. The only match that really matters is the last round. The first two characters are only there to see if you can gain an advantage before the last round IMO. That would mean that unless the match is really lopsided (9-1 or 10-0), almost any character can score enough damage on another to make it worth playing him.

I agree with only Sagat and Blanka being top tier in general. I, myself, would rank Sagat higher, mainly because I feel that he has the least amount of bad matches (then again, i get to see choi play him) and I don't really see why you say Blanka is better than Sagat. You listed the matches you thought Blanka lost, and I'm just curious to see what you'd say were Sagat's bad match-ups.

I also wonder why you think Vega beats blanka. I always thought Blanka could rush him down.

Also, I play Geese, so I have a little insight into the Geese v Blanka match. IMO, Geese has a few things going for him. First, is high counter, which stops RC electricity, except maybe from cross-up forward. Second, he has RC double reppuken. This is probably the most instrumental part to playing Geese. You stop jump-ins with this, small jumps too. You stop slide. I'm not positive, but I also believe that it helps against RC hop-in. Third, Geese's poking arsenal is great against Blanka. C.Jab beats everything but OC.Fierce slide and sweep. C.Roundhouse beats or trades with slide and sweep. I also think that C.Fierce should stop any worries you have over being crossed up. Only time cross-up should bother you is if you get knocked down, and that's not supposed to happen. I don't think i need to get into how good S.Roundhouse is at following up things like RC double reppuken or a string of blocked jabs, etc.

But, as you said, a lot of what I mentioned is not tested in a tournament, nor am I a high quality player to test it. I have tested a few tactics in that match-up against my small pool of players, and I still feel that Geese has the tools to get the job done.

RagingStormX

03-11-2003, 12:06 PM

Top-tiers
1.Sagat
2.Blanka
3.Cammy
4.Bison
5.Vega
One reason these characters are top-tier is because they all have one thing in common... they are all scrub friendly. Now when when fight a good Sagat, Blanka, or etc., it gets very difficult. Now most of you are probly saying " Yama's top- tier" or " Chun -li is up there". Well thats another things I wanted to cover. There are characters that are considered top-tier or close to top-tier if you can play them very good. To me these are:( not in exact order )
1.Geese
2.Chun-li
3.Yama ( sorta scrub friendly tho )
4.Balrog
5.Iori
6.Eagle
I might have left some out, but all these characters have a total package, and can even give the best Top-tier trouble, if you can play them. As for Sagat or Blanka being placed higher in tier rank, it's Sagat because even tho Blanka is sorta an anti-Sagat, Sagat is overall better, and has less anti-characters. No one really owns a good Sagat, but a decent Hibiki, Bison, or even Honda player can own Blanka. See my point? Anyway if you disagree with anything, just post your reason why.

madmoochie

03-11-2003, 12:54 PM

i think akuma should belong somewhere on your close to top tier list. He's the most versatile shoto, gets free jumpins, great supers. Ok so he's got about a sweeps worth of HP less than Hp middle tier characters i.e. Iori or eagle. Great moveset, great combos and his pretty decent normals more than make up for it i think. if he has as much hp as ryu, surely he'd be top tier:)

Alphastorm

03-11-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by RagingStormX
1.Geese
2.Chun-li
3.Yama ( sorta scrub friendly tho )
4.Balrog
5.Iori
6.Eagle

yama's not scrub friendly. Fuck you biatch. :mad:

Anyway, Blanka gets owned but turtle vega and Sagat has less inferior match ups.

chunli has trouble with small characters.

Iori has the best roll in cvs2. That's all you need to know.

Thx.

uber_soldat

03-11-2003, 05:38 PM

yama is one of the most scrub friendly characters in the game, along with vega.

Hellion

03-12-2003, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by madmoochie
i think akuma should belong somewhere on your close to top tier list. He's the most versatile shoto, gets free jumpins, great supers. Ok so he's got about a sweeps worth of HP less than Hp middle tier characters i.e. Iori or eagle. Great moveset, great combos and his pretty decent normals more than make up for it i think. if he has as much hp as ryu, surely he'd be top tier:)

There are a lot of characters out there that can benefit from a "little modifications"... And by this reasoning, virtually the whole cast of CvS2 characters have the potential to be at the top...

Let's say they gave Kyosuke the same damage and vitiality as say, Rugal... Some would argue that a 30-40 hit air cc with Kyosuke would put him somewhere closer to that top 4 a.l.a. Sakura.

FluffyXXL

03-12-2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Hellion

There are a lot of characters out there that can benefit from a "little modifications"... And by this reasoning, virtually the whole cast of CvS2 characters have the potential to be at the top...

Let's say they gave Kyosuke the same damage and vitiality as say, Rugal... Some would argue that a 30-40 hit air cc with Kyosuke would put him somewhere closer to that top 4 a.l.a. Sakura.

More damage never makes a character better. Good normals make better characters than powerful characters.

Look at the top two characters, Blanka and Sagat. Yes, they do damage, but their damage comes from good normals.

Look at the next crop of good characters, Vega, Bison, Eagle, Yama, Sakura, Iori, Kyo, Cammy, Hibiki, etc. They all have good normals. Not as damaging as the top two, but still good none the less.

If you wanted to make Kyosuke better, his sweep would have to be fast, and not be punishable. Making it comboable ala shotos would help too. His other normals would all have to be fast and comboable too. That would make him good.

kcxj

03-12-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by madmoochie
i think akuma should belong somewhere on your close to top tier list. He's the most versatile shoto, gets free jumpins, great supers. Ok so he's got about a sweeps worth of HP less than Hp middle tier characters i.e. Iori or eagle. Great moveset, great combos and his pretty decent normals more than make up for it i think. if he has as much hp as ryu, surely he'd be top tier:)

It's pretty much impossible for him to beat Blanka (as with any shotos). Learn Akuma to learn how basic mindgames work etc... then drop him for somebody else. He's good for casual play (or if you just want to warm up before a real match) other than that, he sucks unfortunately :bluu:.

Gandido

03-12-2003, 10:12 PM

Looks like Fluffy decided to add Sakura up there. Way to go.
My redefined list of the CvS2 top tiers: (Top 5, then the possible nexy 7-10 best).

1) Blanka
2) Sagat
3) Cammy
4) Bison
5) Tied off: Sakura/Chun-Li

And for the next:
7) Vega
8) Hibiki
9) Geese
10) Yamazaki
11) Iori
12) Kyo
13) Rolento
14) Honda
15) Guile

Most has already been explained. Got a complain? PM me.

uber_soldat

03-12-2003, 10:15 PM

hell no, i think its the following

sagat
blanka
yama
vega
bison
cammy
honda

i think those are the top tiers

Hellion

03-12-2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by FluffyXXL

More damage never makes a character better. Good normals make better characters than powerful characters.

I suppose you're right, in that, but I'm sure that you agree that RCs changed the tiers a bit. I wasn't just arguing on Kyosuke's normals.
On that note, when people take Sagat and Blanka and just say "Ok, these two are the best, but Sagat's at the top..." Isn't Blanka possibly better because of his RC's?

FluffyXXL

03-12-2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Gandido
Looks like Fluffy decided to add Sakura up there. Way to go.
My redefined list of the CvS2 top tiers: (Top 5, then the possible nexy 7-10 best).

1) Blanka
2) Sagat
3) Cammy
4) Bison
5) Tied off: Sakura/Chun-Li

And for the next:
7) Vega
8) Hibiki
9) Geese
10) Yamazaki
11) Iori
12) Kyo
13) Rolento
14) Honda
15) Guile

Most has already been explained. Got a complain? PM me.

A couple things.

First, I don't recall saying Sakura was bad. I just wanted to know how she handles match-ups. Keep in mind that I actually can be easily swayed in opinion if someone explains something and I can try it out. Besides, the only person I've ever seen play A-Sak at top levels was Ricky, and that was a long time ago.

Second, as for the rest of your list, I remember a while back when you were saying that Kyo was better than Iori because of better normals. Is there a reason for Iori now being ranked above Kyo?

And third, I think it's really hard to rank characters beyond maybe even top 4. Too many characters can be played well in high levels and do get played. For instance, if I was making that list, i would have put Eagle, Balrog, and Todo on there at some point definitely. I don't think I would have included Guile, but that's just me. IMO, it just gets to hard to rank beyond 4, since we can see a clear limit between those four and all those below.

FluffyXXL

03-13-2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Hellion

I suppose you're right, in that, but I'm sure that you agree that RCs changed the tiers a bit. I wasn't just arguing on Kyosuke's normals.
On that note, when people take Sagat and Blanka and just say "Ok, these two are the best, but Sagat's at the top..." Isn't Blanka possibly better because of his RC's?

Yes, RCs changed the game. There is no doubt about that. But, how it changed the game is a different story.

Looking back at it, I think RCs actually have the opposite effect of what people assumed they would. N-Groove, for example, is now considered to be one of the worst grooves. P-groove is now much better, as is C. K-groove is still good. If you look at those three grooves, they all have something that can directly counter roll cancel tactics. C can air block and often score lots of damage off of it. K can just defend. P can parry. All lead to very favorable situations. N groove can't do anything of the sort. I honestly don't understand why A-groove is not worse, since it also has fairly limited options against RCs, other than activate meter.

Also, look at how some characters are better because of RCs, like Geese for example. His high counter is much easier to land now since you think most people are going to RC. No more poking mindgames. Just counter that shit. Anway, point here is that Geese was not as good as he is because people use more specials.

The funny thing is that IMO, the top tiers still haven't changed. I still list Sagat because I feel he has fewer bad matches than Blanka, RCs or no. Blanka is still second, because no one else is that good. Cammy and Bison are still third and fourth. Everything else below that gets altered by RCs.

Gandido

03-13-2003, 09:57 AM

NOTE: I did base my rankings off RCs.

Sakura has excellent RCs, anyone can vouch for that. You can't jump in at Bison because of RC P.Crusher, and if your char is close to the corner, he can blow through whatever with a scissor kic (RC) and kill you with custom. Vega gets free damage off RC Claw roll, and RC dive is a nice way to get out of rushes. Hibiki has an RCable OVERHEAD, that has followups that knock down. Put that in plus her 50/50 side switch stuff on wakeup (RC Run slash on certain times makes it a tossup as to which side it will hit.) Cammy's short RC drill is the definition of BS, and so is Blanka. Sagat is just Sagat so he stays up there. Chun can kill you off one normal. If that isn't top tier, I dunno what is.

FluffyXXL: I ranked Iori higher this time because I've been able to randomly Scum Gale people out of certain RCs. It takes a little time to get it, but it's worth the payoff (free 3400 damage if you land it). Also, I had completely ignored Iori's s.forward, which is one of his best normals. Kyo has a certain messup factor on his RCs that make them unpractical at times. (You REALLY get his kick RC oftenly, but you can still get punished).

Orochi_Shoto

03-13-2003, 02:14 PM

FluffyXXL

03-13-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Gandido
Sakura has excellent RCs, anyone can vouch for that. You can't jump in at Bison because of RC P.Crusher, and if your char is close to the corner, he can blow through whatever with a scissor kic (RC) and kill you with custom. Vega gets free damage off RC Claw roll, and RC dive is a nice way to get out of rushes. Hibiki has an RCable OVERHEAD, that has followups that knock down. Put that in plus her 50/50 side switch stuff on wakeup (RC Run slash on certain times makes it a tossup as to which side it will hit.) Cammy's short RC drill is the definition of BS, and so is Blanka. Sagat is just Sagat so he stays up there. Chun can kill you off one normal. If that isn't top tier, I dunno what is.
I would argue a bit about that last comment on ChunLi. First, there are numerous characters that can kill you (or at least practially kill you) off of one normal. Second, it's not one normal that kills you, but a series of combos off of that one normal (unless you're talking about something else that I don't know about) and you normally have opportunities to stop it.
Originally posted by Gandido
FluffyXXL: I ranked Iori higher this time because I've been able to randomly Scum Gale people out of certain RCs. It takes a little time to get it, but it's worth the payoff (free 3400 damage if you land it). Also, I had completely ignored Iori's s.forward, which is one of his best normals. Kyo has a certain messup factor on his RCs that make them unpractical at times. (You REALLY get his kick RC oftenly, but you can still get punished).
Well, I don't play Iori at all anymore, mostly because I can't RC Scum Gale for shit. I picked up Kyo mostly playing him in P groove and then switching to A later when I found out about his GC custom. I'm really not a top contender with him, but I can rip up the scrubs that I play with him.

Anyway, end of side note. Back when I did play Iori, i always wondered what his S.Forward was for. A while back, Viscant said it was one of his best pokes, but I never quite figured out what was so good about it. Maybe you can shed some light in on me about when to use this move?

Gandido

03-14-2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by FluffyXXL

I would argue a bit about that last comment on ChunLi. First, there are numerous characters that can kill you (or at least practially kill you) off of one normal. Second, it's not one normal that kills you, but a series of combos off of that one normal (unless you're talking about something else that I don't know about) and you normally have opportunities to stop it.

Well, I don't play Iori at all anymore, mostly because I can't RC Scum Gale for shit. I picked up Kyo mostly playing him in P groove and then switching to A later when I found out about his GC custom. I'm really not a top contender with him, but I can rip up the scrubs that I play with him.

Anyway, end of side note. Back when I did play Iori, i always wondered what his S.Forward was for. A while back, Viscant said it was one of his best pokes, but I never quite figured out what was so good about it. Maybe you can shed some light in on me about when to use this move?

No point to RC Scum Gale. It's not easy. Period. No one can do it consistenly. =/ HIs s.forward is like a shield. It beats out stuff that the main pokes don't.

FMJaguar

03-15-2003, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Gandido

No point to RC Scum Gale. It's not easy. Period. No one can do it consistenly. =/ HIs s.forward is like a shield. It beats out stuff that the main pokes don't.

IIRC RC command grabs are really good, i don't see why iori's would be different. The s.fwd i was playing with a little tho, it's very fast and hits kinda mid (sorta like sagat s.short i guess), so i can see why it would be good.

Gandido

03-15-2003, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by FMJaguar

IIRC RC command grabs are really good, i don't see why iori's would be different. The s.fwd i was playing with a little tho, it's very fast and hits kinda mid (sorta like sagat s.short i guess), so i can see why it would be good.

RC Command grabs ARE good... But just not 63214, 6 + P ones. You have 2 ways that make it liable for you to fuck up the RC which are the rekka and the run grab thingy. It's not consistent enough to make it a viable gameplay tactic. And that's a good comparison for the s.forward. It also seems to beat out most low attacks.

box

03-22-2003, 08:55 PM

Not so sure about tiers... but here are the popularity results based on the SBO Japan qualifiers.

Sagat- 33
Blanka- 19
Bison- 16
Cammy- 12
Sakura - 9
Chun- 8
Geese, Hibiki, Kyo, Rolento- 7
Ken- 6
Iori - 5
Guile, Ryu, Vega- 4
Athena, Maki, Rock, Rugal, Yamazaki - 3
Akuma, Joe, Kim- 2
Dhalsim, Eagle, Honda, King, Mai, Morrigan, Nakoruru, Ryo, Terry, Todo, Zangief - 1
Balrog, Benimaru, Chang, Dan, Haohmaru, Kyosuke, Raiden, Vice, Yun, Yuri - 0

Dasrik

03-24-2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by FluffyXXL
More damage never makes a character better. Good normals make better characters than powerful characters. This is true in most cases. In CvS2 there are a LOT of cases of characters who would be good if their damage ratio was tweaked so they actually gave as good as they got. Yuri, Benimaru, Maki and Yun, and to a lesser extent Kyosuke and King, are all examples of characters that have good tools, good ways to get hits, but just can't do enough damage for the damage they'll sustain over time. Shitty.

mexxlover

03-24-2003, 05:19 PM

OmegaRed

03-24-2003, 05:44 PM

Alright my tier list.... first off I agree with whoever (i can't remember who said it) about I think tier's depend a bit on the person and definately what groove makes a huge difference. Secondly my list is probably going to look a bit different because I don't use any grooves with roll. Here's my list and after I'll try and explain all as much as possible

1. Nakoruru
2. E Honda
3. Sagat (only if extremely good user or ratio 2)
4. Athena
5. Todo
6. Zangief
7. King
8. Morrigan
9. Guile
10. Rugal

Additionals that should probably be included but I've yet to play any really good users (these are not in order):
Blanka, Sakura, Kyo, Yamazaki, Rolento, Balrog/Vega, Cammy, Vice

On to my explanations:
1. Nakoruru: Anyone like myself that uses P Groove or K Groove knows how much a pain this girl is. I've seen her tear up A groove users as well which put her over the top for me. Her low/high game is just to good against P and K groove and then to see her put up a fight against an A groove was just scary.

2. E. Honda (Blanka): Okay maybe I'm a little biased since he's one of my favorite characters. I do think he's top tier though. In this I'll also explain why perhaps Blanka didn't make my top tier list. It could be because I almost always have E. Honda on my team in P Groove and either the Blanka user just wasn't good enough or E. Honda can tear Blanka up. E. Honda can tear almost anyone up in fact. The only people he has any trouble with is shotos and in P groove you can just sit it out and let them come to you eliminating that threat. Blanka I think could be next to E. Honda but I haven't seen a good enough Blanka player. I would say if anything the two are very much equal.

3. Sagat: Okay probably the reason I'm going to get flamed.... In P Groove I rarely loose to him as a ratio one unless the person is incredible with him.... the reason he made the list besides to avoid getting entirely flamed is because he's usually the ratio 2 if he's on the squad. I only use P and K and the occasional S and it really makes Sagat less a threat. As the ratio 2 though unless I get lucky and its my Honda against him (who I use as a ratio 2) he can typically beat me with about half his life left.

4. Athena: For me at least Athena is definately top tier. She's hard to parry and between her teleport, command throw, and dragon punch she's very hard. It could be because I don't use any really long range people nor do I use C,A, or N grooves to move in with roll but I think she's top tier.

5. Todo: At first I thought my friend (who taught me how to play) was joking when he said Todo was great. I'm pretty sure at the time he was too. Now we know his power and in K-Groove Todo is a dominating force against anyone except perhaps Nakoruru (since she can hop on her bird to avoid his super). This was then confirmed when Todo appeared time and time again at the Showdown in the South Tournament.

6. Zangief: Okay I know I'm biased her because after E. Honda and Zangief is my favorite character but he really is good. In P and K groove like someone mentioned he's a definite threat. Eliminating long range attacks means it is going to be a close range battle against one of the most powerful close range characters in the game with both supers doing devastating damage and the second one is an anti air.... that's big red for you.

7. King: She is weak yes but her combos easily make up for it. She can definately play with the top players.

8. Morrigan: I hate fighting Morrigan she scares me. She can just change a fight so quickly if you slip up. She's kinda like the hybrid of Athena and Sakura (IMO)

9. Guile: With some of the strongest and most varied regular attacks in the game he's powerful. He's also got great air throws and ground throws to stop most rollers. Then he has his two specials which are wonderful for zoning people out. He can once zone people out do insane combos. Also his level 3 super does an insane amount of damage. Even when blocked it takes about 25% of most characters life.

10. Rugal: One reason.... style. No really its his command throw.... it does great damage and most don't know how to stop it so you can do it two or three times. Then his supers are great. Granted his kick one is just decent but his punch one particularly at level 3 is incredible. It can change a fight instantly taking about 50% of a character's life even if Ratio 2.

Characters I don't know enough about to call top tier but probably should be:

Sakura: I've only played her once and it was an even fight but I've heard so much about her I'm guessing the person wasn't trying (since I'm not that good)

Kyo: From what I hear his A-Groove is insane although I've never once seen anyone use it. I hear he has the most powerful CCs in the game.

Yamazaki: I've only used him like twice and have never fought against him. His moves are incredibly strong and if I had a chance to see some fights I'd probably put him in the list somewhere.

Rolento, Cammy, Balrog/Vega: Wish I have seen more of him so I can say he's top tier but so far I've just heard about him and seen him in some casual play. He's impressive much more so than the other speed demons like Cammy and Balrog/Vega in my opinion. Definately at least one of these speed demons should be in the top tier list - I just haven't seen enough to say which.

Vice: I've never seen people really use her but that grab is scarry so if there was someone out there who can use her really well I could only imagine the possibilities that command grab has.

*These are all from what I've seen and I'm sure people will disagree and probably with good reason. All I ask is you explain or better yet show videos (particularly of some of those characters I haven't seen much of like Yamazaki and Kyo)

FluffyXXL

03-25-2003, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by Dasrik
This is true in most cases. In CvS2 there are a LOT of cases of characters who would be good if their damage ratio was tweaked so they actually gave as good as they got. Yuri, Benimaru, Maki and Yun, and to a lesser extent Kyosuke and King, are all examples of characters that have good tools, good ways to get hits, but just can't do enough damage for the damage they'll sustain over time. Shitty. But, is that solved by raising their damage, or raising their stamina? I feel the same way about Akuma as you do about the characters you mentioned. I think he is by far the best shoto (at least in A-groove) because he has great normals, has massive combo potential, and can just work a match way better than Ken or Ryu. However, I have to work so hard not to get hit while playing him that it's not worth it unless I get so good I'm untouchable. Anyway, as I said before, is this an issue of damage, or of stamina?

Yuri, Beni, and King were all good in CVS1. I would say the reason they aren't as good in CVS2 also has to do with the raping of good special moves.

If you notice, the characters you mentioned all have good normals. Honestly, the characters I was thinking of when I typed that were ones like Zangief, Raiden, Honda, Rugal, Haohmaru, etc. None of them are good because they can deal lots of damage. IMO, the only character that is good because he deals too much damage is Sagat. You could also argue Blanka I guess, but I won't. The top 4 in the game have a lot of things in common, one of which is good normals. If you keep going down the list, the amount that they share in common decreases a bit. However, the thing you'll notice is that they all have good normals. I'm not saying that is the only reason, just a main reason.

Originally posted by mexxlover

i concur...vice would be so good if she could actually hurt people and take damage...oh well. Again, I would argue that the major difference between CVS1 Vice, who was good, and CVS2 Vice is not about damage. I think she's only worse because of the ratio system and the way Blockstun works to prevent throw ticks.

CrucifiedGothic

03-26-2003, 12:36 AM

Personally if you REALLY want to run down' tiers. The only characters that can be trully called "top tier" are the ones that are highly used \ abused.

Yama
Ryu
Sagat
Cammy
Blanka
Rolento

And not that many others. :lame:

Not that I can talk.
Vega \ Cammy \ Chun

box

03-26-2003, 04:11 PM

God: Sagat/blanka/bison/cammy

Top: sakura/chun/geese/hibiki/kyo/rolento/ken/iori

middle:
Guile, Ryu, Vega, Athena, Maki, Rock, Rugal, Yamazaki, Akuma, Joe, Kim, Dhalsim, Eagle, Honda, King, Mai, Morrigan, Nakoruru, Ryo, Terry, Todo, Zangief

bottom: Balrog, Benimaru, Chang, Dan, Haohmaru, Kyosuke, Raiden, Vice, Yun, Yuri

convergence

03-26-2003, 11:32 PM

TODO.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH (cough).... ugh

Rick Fn Stalvey

03-27-2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by box
God: Sagat/blanka/bison/cammy

Top: sakura/chun/geese/hibiki/kyo/rolento/ken/iori

middle:
Guile, Ryu, Vega, Athena, Maki, Rock, Rugal, Yamazaki, Akuma, Joe, Kim, Dhalsim, Eagle, Honda, King, Mai, Morrigan, Nakoruru, Ryo, Terry, Todo, Zangief

bottom: Balrog, Benimaru, Chang, Dan, Haohmaru, Kyosuke, Raiden, Vice, Yun, Yuri

LOL Ioi, Hibiki, Kyo, and Ken Tier pppffft I dont think so they r so hella second tier.. Its all About Camy, Sagat, Blanka, Vega, Bison.

2nd Geese, Balrog, Chunli.....uuummmm I hellla drunk so Im sure Ill remeber sooner or later. but ha yeah I got all u all.:evil: :lol:

OmegaRed

03-27-2003, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by convergence
TODO.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH (cough).... ugh

Todo has one of the most abuseable moves in the game and in K-Groove his level 3 ecstasy wave does more damage than almost every other move knocking any character to around 10% life.

shinblanka

03-27-2003, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by OmegaRed
Alright my tier list.... first off I agree with whoever (i can't remember who said it) about I think tier's depend a bit on the person and definately what groove makes a huge difference. Secondly my list is probably going to look a bit different because I don't use any grooves with roll. Here's my list and after I'll try and explain all as much as possible

1. Nakoruru
2. E Honda
3. Sagat (only if extremely good user or ratio 2)
4. Athena
5. Todo
6. Zangief
7. King
8. Morrigan
9. Guile
10. Rugal

Additionals that should probably be included but I've yet to play any really good users (these are not in order):
Blanka, Sakura, Kyo, Yamazaki, Rolento, Balrog/Vega, Cammy, Vice

On to my explanations:
1. Nakoruru: Anyone like myself that uses P Groove or K Groove knows how much a pain this girl is. I've seen her tear up A groove users as well which put her over the top for me. Her low/high game is just to good against P and K groove and then to see her put up a fight against an A groove was just scary.

2. E. Honda (Blanka): Okay maybe I'm a little biased since he's one of my favorite characters. I do think he's top tier though. In this I'll also explain why perhaps Blanka didn't make my top tier list. It could be because I almost always have E. Honda on my team in P Groove and either the Blanka user just wasn't good enough or E. Honda can tear Blanka up. E. Honda can tear almost anyone up in fact. The only people he has any trouble with is shotos and in P groove you can just sit it out and let them come to you eliminating that threat. Blanka I think could be next to E. Honda but I haven't seen a good enough Blanka player. I would say if anything the two are very much equal.

3. Sagat: Okay probably the reason I'm going to get flamed.... In P Groove I rarely loose to him as a ratio one unless the person is incredible with him.... the reason he made the list besides to avoid getting entirely flamed is because he's usually the ratio 2 if he's on the squad. I only use P and K and the occasional S and it really makes Sagat less a threat. As the ratio 2 though unless I get lucky and its my Honda against him (who I use as a ratio 2) he can typically beat me with about half his life left.

4. Athena: For me at least Athena is definately top tier. She's hard to parry and between her teleport, command throw, and dragon punch she's very hard. It could be because I don't use any really long range people nor do I use C,A, or N grooves to move in with roll but I think she's top tier.

5. Todo: At first I thought my friend (who taught me how to play) was joking when he said Todo was great. I'm pretty sure at the time he was too. Now we know his power and in K-Groove Todo is a dominating force against anyone except perhaps Nakoruru (since she can hop on her bird to avoid his super). This was then confirmed when Todo appeared time and time again at the Showdown in the South Tournament.

6. Zangief: Okay I know I'm biased her because after E. Honda and Zangief is my favorite character but he really is good. In P and K groove like someone mentioned he's a definite threat. Eliminating long range attacks means it is going to be a close range battle against one of the most powerful close range characters in the game with both supers doing devastating damage and the second one is an anti air.... that's big red for you.

7. King: She is weak yes but her combos easily make up for it. She can definately play with the top players.

8. Morrigan: I hate fighting Morrigan she scares me. She can just change a fight so quickly if you slip up. She's kinda like the hybrid of Athena and Sakura (IMO)

9. Guile: With some of the strongest and most varied regular attacks in the game he's powerful. He's also got great air throws and ground throws to stop most rollers. Then he has his two specials which are wonderful for zoning people out. He can once zone people out do insane combos. Also his level 3 super does an insane amount of damage. Even when blocked it takes about 25% of most characters life.

10. Rugal: One reason.... style. No really its his command throw.... it does great damage and most don't know how to stop it so you can do it two or three times. Then his supers are great. Granted his kick one is just decent but his punch one particularly at level 3 is incredible. It can change a fight instantly taking about 50% of a character's life even if Ratio 2.

Characters I don't know enough about to call top tier but probably should be:

Sakura: I've only played her once and it was an even fight but I've heard so much about her I'm guessing the person wasn't trying (since I'm not that good)

Kyo: From what I hear his A-Groove is insane although I've never once seen anyone use it. I hear he has the most powerful CCs in the game.

Yamazaki: I've only used him like twice and have never fought against him. His moves are incredibly strong and if I had a chance to see some fights I'd probably put him in the list somewhere.

Rolento, Cammy, Balrog/Vega: Wish I have seen more of him so I can say he's top tier but so far I've just heard about him and seen him in some casual play. He's impressive much more so than the other speed demons like Cammy and Balrog/Vega in my opinion. Definately at least one of these speed demons should be in the top tier list - I just haven't seen enough to say which.

Vice: I've never seen people really use her but that grab is scarry so if there was someone out there who can use her really well I could only imagine the possibilities that command grab has.

*These are all from what I've seen and I'm sure people will disagree and probably with good reason. All I ask is you explain or better yet show videos (particularly of some of those characters I haven't seen much of like Yamazaki and Kyo)

Yo man you live in Orlando right? If that is so then you need to go to Rocky's Reply and play a guy named Trent Van Deven in CvS2. He will show you why Cammy is top tier in CvS2.

IMO this is the top 4 characters and the grooves that makes them top tier:
#1. Blanka (C, K, N groove)- RC'ing the the blanka ball and the electricity makes him truely the best in CvS2. It's about time he was top tier instead of being ass tier.:evil: :p
#2. Cammy (A or C groove)- the best one button charater in the game- Standing Round House Kick. She walks faster than most characters runs. She can walk in and out of your attack zone making you wiff and she poking you with RH kick. Also the bitch does great damage for being a little whore like hibiki.
#3. Sagat (A, C, K, or N groove)- The second best 1 button character with great priority on all of his normal attacks "See ducking FP and standing forward kick" nuff said
#4. M. Bison (A Groove)- The 80% A groove combo from anywhere on the screen makes him top tier.
#5.