The Proper Way to Balance SSFIV

[cursedDice]

This is quite a loaded subject matter here on SRK, but I'm going to stick my head above water and get this argument under way myself.

There is very little (if anything) in SFIV that is so superior and/or broken that it should be removed or nerfed. Yes, I'm talking Sagat's damage output, Rufus' and Ryu's million-and-one ways to land Ultra, Fuerte's RSF loop, Balrog's Jab, etc...I'm sure each of us could add an additional five things to this list.

With this is mind, other character's need to be brought up to (or close to) the level of the top tier instead of dropping the others down. Sagat, Ryu, Rufus, & Boxer are fun because they are good, solid character's...Let's not take the fun away...Let's make the other characters closer to them.

So I've chosen three characters that I feel I have enough experience with to make educated buffs to them that will bring them closer to the top 4 to illustrate the kind of balancing I'm talking about...the kind where the Nerf Bat stays in the closet.

Please note: I realize that Super SFIV is more than just a balance update...there will be tweaks to gameplay, moves added, not to mention 8 new characters...and we can't know how this will impact balance...however, there will be tweaks to frame data, damage, etc...applied as well, and these are the kinds of changes I will be suggesting. And for the record, I'm a Dictator player, followed by Guile, Claw, and Gouken.

Guile:
1.) Sonic Boom damage increase from 50 to 60-70 damage, EX 50*50 to 70*70...EX knocks down?
2.) Flash Kick defends against crossups better, invuln from frames 1-3 changed to 1-4or5...has to be at least as good (doesn't have to be good in the same way) as an SRK.
3.) cr. MK startup changed from 7-6 (maybe 5)
4.) Super damage increased to 400ish, Ultra damage increased, make comboing from Super into Ultra more reliable, and more damaging...something like 600 damage from a Super juggled into fully loaded Ultra.
5.) Allow something to juggle after Flash Kick > FADC hits.

Claw:
1.) Increase overall damage by 5-10%.
2.) Increase wall dive speed and priority (maybe 3/4 relative to what it was in ST) & fix the glitches.
3.) Have Vega recover closer to his opponent after forward and back throws for easier Hop Cross-up Shenanigans.
4.) Have Super either do more damage (330 > 400), have more priority, or a combo of both. Have Ultra track better, startup faster, have a better hitbox, or some combo of this.
5.) Decrease the startups of 2-3 normals by 1-2 frames to allow for some better link and hit confirm combos and increase overall poking ability.
6.) Double the time (at least) for Claw to lose mask/claw.
7.) Better invuln and recovery on Backflips. (Still won't be able to use in corner, so this would be the place to give Vega better wake-up options).

Dictator
1.) Overall Damage from BnB combos increased 5-10%.
2.) Give non EX psycho crusher some use...maybe HP goes further and faster, more block damage, safe at the right distance, etc...
3.) Allow normals to juggle after x2 MP in the air.
3.) Teleport recovery from 42F to 30ish...Might allow some resets from canceling close Fierce after juggling with MP in the air. Would need testing.
4.) Increase Super Damage from 340 > 400 or more.
5.) Allow Block cr. RH (slide) to be FADCed out of.

Remember, I've listed these buffs as an example of how the lower and mid tiers could be brought up without nerfing the top...it is very possible that a different set of buffs would be better and/or more fun...or that these buffs won't even them bring them close to the top...and if you think so...post it!

Please feel free to disagree with this idea of no nerfs to anyone BUT please provide relevant examples of something which is so good, that it cannot be made balanced by spreading the love to the rest of the cast. Also if you want to take a stab a balancing your character using this method, post it...but try to keep it in the same format as mine...only buffs, discuss actual frame data and damage number changes, and no more than 7-8 of them to keep it reasonable.

Discuss!

[d3v]

Want to balance SSFIV? Give it a an arcade loketest!

[deadfrog]

I remember when they were developing SF4 and the game was running sort of fast. Ono said that balancing the game at this speed was the easiest way to ensure that it is well balanced, and then it will stay balanced when they slow it down. I never understood that statement. :xeye:

[Ben-Ra]

Yeah, because all the loketests they had for sf4 prevented Guile and Claw from being shit tier, oh wait.

[BrentoBox]

I usually hate it when people start their own "Here's how I would balance it" threads, but you nailed what Vega needs pretty dead on. Bravo.

[Sephiroth73003]

Pay more attention and give each X vs Y match a rundown if 1 move gives 1 character so much trouble you can't reliably win (st. RH sagat vs Gief, j. FP Seth vs Gief, Tiger Knee vs Gouken)

Also remove Gouken's parry limitations that are linked to the Focus system : /

[ZanaOyakata]

Pay more attention and give each X vs Y match a rundown if 1 move gives 1 character so much trouble you can't reliably win (st. RH sagat vs Gief, j. FP Seth vs Gief, Tiger Knee vs Gouken)

Also remove Gouken's parry limitations that are linked to the Focus system : /
Ahmen. Gouken's counter should not be able to be armor broken.

He needs to have DP priority to his hurricane kick and make it hit low.

[Jaytwo96]

I main guile. I don't think he's as bad as people whine and complain.

I do think his boom should do a little more damage.

His ULTRA is the biggest problem with him. Even if hit one connects ... the rest of the combo might not. That and even if every hit connects ... it still does crap for damage. So They should make it so that if the first hit of the combo hits, so do the rest.... and a little added damage to the final kick would be a nice addition.

Other than that I think he's an excellent character.

oh and the super>>ultra ... who cares? I never build up a super combo as it is... i blow it all on ex booms. Usually works out better anyway

[Moopie]

For as much as people complain about how characters need buffs this is easily one of the more balanced fighting games out there. Especially in the 2d style market.

Outside of that simple fact this thread is fail, like all other that are similar, because people will generally only ask for buff for their characters and ask for nerfs for others they have trouble with.

[cursedDice]

Outside of that simple fact this thread is fail, like all other that are similar, because people will generally only ask for buff for their characters and ask for nerfs for others they have trouble with.

Did you even read the post? The whole point was to balance the game without nerfing anything...only adding buffs.

[Xeris]

Yeah...

I think he has a good Idea...

Capcom should take a proactive approach to the balance issues, that being said, not EVERY character can be good, but they should all be able to at win. Nerfs don't do anything... and should never be an implemented solution unless there is no other alternative.

My two part solution
______________

- Why worsen aspects of the game instead of making the disadvantaged aspects better?
- Play test enough to find those "1 move" X vs Y Match ups, and see if other characters also have trouble with it.

Looking at other unrelated genres of competitive games are a good way to help balance.

Games like...

- Magic the Gathering >>> (Color Wheel)
- Starcraft
- 3 Iterations of Street Fighter 3 TS
- Guilty Gear (All Versions)
- Warcraft III / DotA

Changes were made to the game that just made things better. Specifically; kind of hit boxes, damage, frame data, overall unit stats / genre specific mechanics / overall game play, etc. got relatively changed so that the developed strategies for each specific Character trait would be as good if not better than the original state.

Look at Zangief, SO BROKEN...

oh wait...

lawl

[rush down]

They need to approach fighting games like they do MMOs and RTSs. Expect to PATCH the game after about 6 months to correct things the players find. Until they do this, games won't be nearly as balanced as they can be. With a suspected TEN new characters, SSF4 can end up even less balanced than SF4 (I'm not saying that SF4 is particularly bad though).

As far as changes go, I would like to see Gen's normals be more safe. I mean, some of them are just suicide if don't at any time other than when its perfect.

[Wikum]

i disagree with most of your guile buffs.

more priority and faster recovery on flash kick is more needed than damage on sonic booms.

his cr.lp to cr.mp shouldn't be as hard to link as it is. make it like ryu/ken/akuma's link.

the new ultra is almost certainly going to be fadc because so many people have been asking for it.

thats pretty much all he needs.

on top of all this....i don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for more damage overall or more stamina overall.....considering he was shit in sf4 and even sagat is going to have a new ultra in ssf4.

[theboss]

Ahmen. Gouken's counter should not be able to be armor broken.

He needs to have DP priority to his hurricane kick and make it hit low.

Armor breakers are limited to 1 or 2 moves from each character. Removing the possibility to break through Gouken´s parry would probably make him godly, I think it´s fine the way it is now.

[.:: Miz ::.]

Did you even read the post? The whole point was to balance the game without nerfing anything...only adding buffs.

YOU CAN NOT ONLY ADD BUFFS. Why? Because buffing the tits out of every character makes them do TOO MUCH DAMAGE, or have TOO MANY INVULNERABLE FRAMES. You can not and WILL NOT get it right the first time around, "tier lists" are bogus and "weak moves" can be worked around. Why are tier lists bogus? Because no two people are the same skill level. Why are "weak moves" bogus? Because YOU CAN NOT DO THEM. In the end, what may end up as a simple buff, ends up being too much for the character OVERALL and relegates a nerf to something else.

Stop trying to make a perfect game (impossible) and understand that SF4 is probably one of the most balanced fighting games in the past 5 years, and that you CAN take Guile or Sakura and do WELL in tournaments. You only have to, I don't know... BE BETTER then the person you are fighting. Sagat is trash in major tournaments because even though he is "top tier" EVERYONE knows how to fight against him making his winning percentage MUCH lower then it "should be" when you consider the godlike TIER LIST. Therefor invalidating the TOP of the list and therefor invalidating the REST of the list. You will NOT find two equally skilled players to ever sit down and write out some asinine list to please the fan base and incite a new Flavor of the Month character. You will however find ONE guy who knows everything there is to know about the game, but since he is one person, he can not make a valid statement when it comes to what/who is best at something.

[Wikum]

Sagat is trash in major tournaments because even though he is "top tier" EVERYONE knows how to fight against him making his winning percentage MUCH lower then it "should be" when you consider the godlike TIER LIST.

um.... this is the current bp situation on the japanese arcades:

01 Mago (Sa) 395.882
02 Ojisan Boy (Sa) 304.416
03 Daigo (Ry) 299.212
04 RF (Sa) 259.068
05 Nemo (Ch) 218.790
06 Bonchan (Sa) 171.442
07 Radiowave (Sa) 167.843
08 Shiro (Ab) 164.058
09 Kindevu (Ru) 153.224
10 Uryo (Vi) 148.828

just the 5 sagats in the top 10. definitely not top tier.

oh and no sign of guile in the top 30.

[kenuran]

The only way to balance this game:

Put in Darkwing Duck.

Let him "get dangerous"

Everyone else falls in line. The end







Seriously is there a need for another balance thread?

[rush down]

Needs more Q!

[JoontheBaboon]

SSF4 Ken adjustment:

1) Same Hadoken as Ryu: Ryu's Hadoken start-up is 13 frames and recovery is 45 frames compared to Ken's Hadoken start-up of 14 frames and recovery of 47 frames. Ken is already -3 frames compared to Ryu. Also, Ryu's EX Hadoken start-up is 12 frames, recovery is 40 frames, and knock-down while Ken's EX Hadoken start-up is still 14 frames, recovery is only 44 frames, and doesn't knock-down. Ken is now -6 frames and no knock-down compared to Ryu.

2) Same Sweep as Ryu: Ryu's Sweep start-up is 5 frames and Ken's Sweep is 8 frames... Why?

3) Faster walking speed: Again, Ryu's walking speed is faster than Ken's walking speed... Ken is a rush-down character so he needs speed.

4) Faster Dash: It'd be great.

[Kich]

Guile's super does do 400 damage on the dot if I'm not mistaken; the problem enters when you juggle the ultra afterwards, the ultra's largest damage portion comes from the second kick, which given how the first kick sets people up, almost without fail loses out on a lot of hits.

A proper solution, given that his ultra actually does perfectly average damage and doesn't -need- to do more is give it better anti-air properties. It should come out faster and fully connect on the first hit -if the person is not in a knockdown state, so either normal state or float state-. In other words, a super > ultra juggle would do like, yeah.. say 600ish damage as they usually are, which is acceptable given how much you're putting into that one combo.

But if they're jumping at you, and you pull it out, and it connects (5 frame start up would solve a lot, so 1 for the ultra frame and 4 for startup afterwards, connect on the 5th frame), it should land the entire thing.

So to sum that up:
1: Make it so that if you're juggling super to ultra, the ultra doesn't do full damage but still does solid juggle damage, very similar to the way Ken's ultra works.
2: Make it come out a lot faster, 5 frames would turn it into a legitimate anti-air which is something that guile could make outrageous use of. Similar to the way that people don't throw projectiles against Seth's ultra, people would not jump against a charged Guile with ultra.

Something else you forgot to mention is to make Guile's High Kick a better input. Or even keep it the way it is, just make it come out faster, more active frames, and way better positioning for Guile. If that move could regularly connect with people, it would be an outrageously good anti-air that is tough to compete with (GHK -> EX.FK = 190dmg 300stun). Currently it gets regularly stuffed and the positioning is extraordinarily precise for it to connect or trade. The timing is also rather odd, requires a very early input to connect with people.

[HazeandFire]

Ken needs worse hadukens than Ryu

Otherwise his name would be Ryu

[idi0t]

they should atleast make the full ultra connect when ken FADCs from a srk(not only on counter hit), and give all his srks better priority rather than trading with every air move from any character

[Colino]

SSF4 Ken adjustment:

1) Same Hadoken as Ryu: Ryu's Hadoken start-up is 13 frames and recovery is 45 frames compared to Ken's Hadoken start-up of 14 frames and recovery of 47 frames. Ken is already -3 frames compared to Ryu. Also, Ryu's EX Hadoken start-up is 12 frames, recovery is 40 frames, and knock-down while Ken's EX Hadoken start-up is still 14 frames, recovery is only 44 frames, and doesn't knock-down. Ken is now -6 frames and no knock-down compared to Ryu.


I think you pretty much neglected that Ken has always been the DP guy and Ryu has always been the Hadouken guy...

[TDeneka]

Guile, and Ken need to move faster. i never understood why they were so slow since this game began... They are supposed to be fairly mobile.

I would love increased dash speed for all characters however, it does add more mixup options.

I would also like for Balrog's Headbutt not to hit half way across the screen... that move is better then almost every other special in the game.

Also, super jump for all characters would be nice, although i am fairly indifferent about it.

[JoontheBaboon]

Ken needs worse hadukens than Ryu

Otherwise his name would be Ryu

Ryu has his Super and Ultra as his signature.

Main focus for SSF4 is to balance out the characters. Even if both Ryu and Ken had same speed Hadokens, Ryu still has 5 frame Sweep, knock down Tatsumaki, faster walking speed, non-punishable EX Tatsumaki on block, 3 frame start-up on all his SRK's which also has knock-down ability, free juggle Ultra without Focus-Cancel, and etc.


I think you pretty much neglected that Ken has always been the DP guy and Ryu has always been the Hadouken guy...

Than why is Ken's L. SRK and M. SRK 4 frame start-up? If Yoshinori Ono wants to leave Hadoken as is, he should at least make Ken's walking speed and sweep same as Ryu.

[roastbeef]

heh im really hoping that they'll buff up claw. i love playing him in ST but his play style just completely changed in 4 and he just isn't fun for me in this game. ooh i also thought it would be cool that at the end of the ultra he'd finish it off with an izuna drop. that would be sick!

[Shoryu Reppa]

5.) Allow something to juggle after Flash Kick > FADC hits.


Somebody mentioned this before and to me it sounds awesome. What if after he FADC a flash kick he can land an air grab?
Maybe they could give Cammy the same option too if she needs it.. but I thnk that'd look/be awesome for Guile to have. And it should do solid damage.

Another thing that really kills me about Guile, the hitbox on his Ultra flash kicks always seem muuuch shorter than the yellow waves he shoots out. The hitbox on em should be a bit bigger

[MILF]

bison is ok as it is ALL he need is anti air

[Taramoor]

Dan's taunts should build EX-meter.
Rose's EX-Soul Throw should be invulnerable and should catch popped up opponents.
Fei Long's command throw should recover faster.

Of course... Capcom will do whatever the hell they want and everything we say here is meaningless, but it's fun to theorize.

[robotic elf]

I think you pretty much neglected that Ken has always been the DP guy and Ryu has always been the Hadouken guy...
He also read the frame data wrong, but then again, everyone reads the fireball frame data wrong. What you neglected is that on top of everything else, Ryu's uppercuts are much scarier in SF4 than Ken's.

[AznDreamer]

man give guile more damage to his s.boom??? Yeah, like that would actually make him better? Come on 90%+ people who plays guile throws so many s.booms in a match it's not even funny.

I think Guile is still a great character so far. just give him better combos and he'll be great to use. I mean really, how many Guiles have I played against who are really good??? I mean good as in utilizes s.booms when needed and other times does great counter/combo/rushdowns. It's great! And it's like 1 out of 7 Guile players play great. Other times its just s.boom (million times) --> j.kick/j.thrw --> c.rh/jabs. all game long.

LoLz, I was actually thinking to decrease damage to ALL projectile throwing characters. Whether I'd play Gief, or Bison, or even Abel it'll be more exciting and challenging to face those projectiles. Most of my matches I eat more fireballs than anything else so its me who needs to learn how to dodge better. But honestly speaking, is it really fun to fight that kind of match ups????

[Sablicious]

Blah blah blah... BUFF MY MAINS!!:crybaby:

Discuss!
[/fix]

:rolleyes:

[zeno]

bison is ok as it is ALL he need is anti air

bison's jump air-time is dumb too, he cannot reactively jump fireballs(at least normal human reaction time) without at the very least trading with shoryu, which leads eating a ton more damage. It makes fireball zoning retardedly effective against him(see guile, akuma, and sagat matchups). Shave off like 3-5 frames off his jump animation and I'll be happy.

it's fine if he doesn't get an anti-air. I think that if the offense is strong, then it's fair to have a weakness in the defense. Right now fireballer -> anti-air chars keep his offensive game at bay all day, the shoto c.mk bullshit doesn't help at all. And yet at the same time, if they feel like it they get to safejump on him for free.

I guess I dno't really care that much about which change they make, just fix one of the two scenarios. I just personally prefer a better offense over defense.

[AznDreamer]

lolz. yeah, it's been done before and here it is again. I complained a lot before but after fighting against great players . . . I can see that this IS already a great balanced game. If I lose then I suck so I'll practice more. If I win then hey, that means I don't suck too bad afterall (against good players).

[AznDreamer]

bison's jump air-time is dumb too, he cannot reactively jump fireballs(at least normal human reaction time) without at the very least trading with shoryu, which leads eating a ton more damage. It makes fireball zoning retardedly effective against him(see guile, akuma, and sagat matchups). Shave off like 3-5 frames off his jump animation and I'll be happy.

it's fine if he doesn't get an anti-air. I think that if the offense is strong, then it's fair to have a weakness in the defense. Right now fireballer -> anti-air chars keep his offensive game at bay all day, the shoto c.mk bullshit doesn't help at all. And yet at the same time, if they feel like it they get to safejump on him for free.

I guess I dno't really care that much about which change they make, just fix one of the two scenarios. I just personally prefer a better offense over defense.




Yeah, you know Bison, i feel sometimes, is left out and still have trouble offensively and defensively. Hopefully Capcom can fix him soon. He should be up there with the tier . . . cuz Bison's the shit.

[Kimmor]

On a common level, the proper balance is to make ultras selectable, not that both can be at the same time. Otherwise charactrs like Sagat will have even bigger advantage over characters like vega, who will hopefully have 2 good ultras this time around.
If they will choose to have both at the same time, it will encourage people to turtle even more, because when a dude gets ultra, the other wont attack in fear of getting raped by a ultra.

Hopefully they realize this

[ironraiden]

Here's my two cents for the chars i use:

Claw:

Buff:

- full invul on startup for scarlet terror, or at least scarlet terror EX.
- Downforward + MK should be overhead
- Mask/claw throw should be removed
- Ultra should have some invul on startup
- Super should have better priority
- Make Crouching HP go in a higher arc so it could be used as AA like in SF2
- Fix the walljump bug
- Mask/Claw lose should happen only in arcade mode, not in versus.

Nerf:

- Reduce priority in standing HK

Sakura:

Buff:

- A crossup, for god's sake.
- Make ultra/super useful outside of combos... scratch that, make it useful at all :rofl:
- HK Tatsu should cross up on crouching oponents
- Make charged hadouken stuff jump-ins instead of trading

Nerf:

- Slightly reduce frame advantage on tatsus.
- Reduce window on ex tatsu combos.

Dan:

Buff:

- Reduce his dash recovery time
- Reduce lag from Air Taunt
- Taunts should have an effect con EX/ultra bar (either give dan a good boost or reduce the enemys)
- Reduce lag after koryuken a bit
- Combo from c. MK to EX Gale
- Bring back rolling taunt

Nerf:

- Reduce priority on koryuken a bit
- Reduce frame advantage on Ex gale kick

El fuerte:

Buff:

- More Hit Points
- Better combos OR general damage buff
- Forward Habanero dash + MK Should change to Guacamole leg throw instead of the useless kick it is now.
- Change the command for quesadilla pull (HCB+K for example, strength determines speed/traveling distance)
- Backwards habanero dash/ex should not be able to be thrown

Nerf:

- Reduce the speed of tostada press/fajita buster/tortilla/slide kick so it can be read a bit more easily
- Remove infinite
- Add a bit of recovery lag after guacamole leg throw/burrito
- Ultra damage should be reduced a bit.

Rufus:

Buff:

- Messiah kick + LK should break armor
- galactic tornado should always absorb y proyectile
- ex tornado should absorb 1 hit
- downforward + MK should not get hit by high tiger shots/tatsu
- Focus should have some more horizontal range

Nerf:

- Reduce the inhuman damage from EX Snake Strike/Ultra
- Gazillion ways to land ultra. Should only keep target combo and j. HK, maybe HP Tornado in corner.

Rose:

Buff:

- General damage increase (it's absurd that a full rose combo takes less life than a sagat s.HK)
- Slight HP Increase
- Make MP/HP soul spark useful
- LP reflect soul spark damage increase should be time based instead of single-use.
- (Could be a bit overpowered) make EX Reflect return proyectile supers/ultras (Metsu hadoken)
- f. HK should be overhead.

Nerf:

- Ultra damage and priority
- Add some recovery after crouching forward MK,to alleviate tick throws

[EDIT]

General:

Fix broken inputs/shortcuts, fcs.

[Wikum]

i didn't realize how much bison needed a buff until i picked him up today. his links are harder than guile's imo.

[akashwan]

I posted this in character specific forums, but here it is again with some modifications, I main Fuerte so here is what I would like to see improved with him:

1. HP increase to 950.
2. faster normals (I dont want them to be Balrog fast, but even a slight increase would be appreciated)
3. His "old" ultra should deal more damage.
4. have better uses of QBomb and make it connect with more combos and the "new" ultra with FADC. Also change its input command to something simpler than a charge.
5. Get rid of Gordita Sorbat and replace it with something more useful.

[raeli]

uhh, his 'old' ultra already does a lot of damage and is pretty much guaranteed to hit if you don't get baited into using it early.

lrn2fuerte

[Wikum]

fuerte's utlra does huge damage.....i can't believe you would want more lol.

[Sasaki]

Here's my two cents for the chars i use:

Claw:

Buff:

- full invul on startup for scarlet terror, or at least scarlet terror EX.
- Downforward + MK should be overhead
- Mask/claw throw should be removed
- Ultra should have some invul on startup
- Super should have better priority
- Make Crouching HP go in a higher arc so it could be used as AA like in SF2
- Fix the walljump bug
- Mask/Claw lose should happen only in arcade mode, not in versus.

Nerf:

- Reduce priority in standing HK

I don't think the idea of a poke and run character is to be able to escape easily with an invincible move after he gets caught.
His stupid ST is one of the reasons why he is unfuckwitable ass tier in ST and everyone hates him and that's why he sucks in SFIV. They nerfed him on purpose.
What they should change about him IMO:

- Damage up on mask loss (more than atm please).
- Speed increase on mask toss (Two meter bars).
- Maybe slightly better pokes, including sliiide!!
- Fix that walldive bug and make it's recovery better.
- Give him a nice second Ultra, Capcom! But don't make it too damaging!

And that's it. I really don't care about cr.hp since st.rh does about the same. Super is useless anyways and as for the Ultra: He'll get a new one anyways.

[Elliott]

ssf4 ken adjustment:

1) same hadoken as ryu


i main fuerte so here is what i would like to see improved with him: 3. His "old" ultra should deal more damage.

gee i wonder how you guys accumulated all that neg rep.

[Tresjin]

Didn't we already have a huge sticky thread (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=184074) on balance suggestions for Super?

[Iron 13 Monkey]

To each theyre own, and i will play with Fei no matter how nerfed he gets..

But here is what i think would make him more competitive.

Standing
LK=Fine
LP=Fine
MK=Okey But could get a bit more range and a bit faster
MP=Fine
HK=Okey But this one should be faster.
HP=Fine

Crouching
LK=Fine
LP=Fine
MK=Okey But should be faster or have longer range.
MP=Fine
HK=Okey But needs longer range
HP=Okey But maybe a bit faster

Jumping forward and Neutrual
LK=Fine
LP=Fine
MK=Fine More range or something on Neutrual
MP=Fine
HK=Okey But maybe a bit moore priority.
HP=Fine

Forward
MK= Great, but make it faster in recovery and startup.
HK= Horrible I mean what happend to his awesome FK from SSF2, theyve given it to Honda. Get it back! With the same double hit, range and speed. :)

Chicken wing= faster startup, more priority, hit overhead, Focus attack breaker like tatsumaki.. It needs something, not all, but at least make it faster at startup.

Rekka Punches= Needs more Hit damage, and faster recovery.

FlameKick= Make it same priority as DP and same horizontal range

Tenshin= Maybe faster or longer range, just seem a bit risky to lay it out right now.

Throws= Needs more range, or be faster.. I mean hes a pressure player aint he.

Super= This is okey, but I need the EX to get trough Fireball spamers as things is right now.

Ultra= Something needs to be done with this, as there is only two ways to land it, besides just laying it out there.
I mean just look at Rose, Ryu, Blanka(!), Sagat,Rufus

Forward Dash= Faster recovery, faster, i dont think its as fast as it seems.
Back Dash= Faster faster faster, and faster recovery.

Overall i think they should make hime look moore spectacular.. And i think he needs some new moves, as he is a Bruce Lee tribute, why dont they go there for inspiration. If someone have seen the double kick performed angainst Bob Wall, in Way of the Dragon...

And why not give him som Punches like chun lee`s kicking , gens Hyakurenko and Hondas hundred hand slap thing..
Only get him to do it with both hands.
Theyve given Blanka that elictricity thing and dont get me started on Zangiefs Lariat.

But i would like him to be a difficult character to play with... Dont want everyone picking him up.
Dont fear that tough, since there will be some new characters enterering the ring.
Ps, Was hoping for no more girl characters,(Juri), more traditional characters, More Classical Martial arts characters, I mean Rufus has great moves, its just... ahhh im not gonna go there..

Thanks

[Kaepora]

Nerf down sagat please.

[slappy]

Want to balance SSFIV? Give it a an arcade loketest!

How does the game being on console prevent them from letting people play it at lokations, to test it out?

[Warahk]

I don't think the idea of a poke and run character is to be able to escape easily with an invincible move after he gets caught.
His stupid ST is one of the reasons why he is unfuckwitable ass tier in ST and everyone hates him and that's why he sucks in SFIV. They nerfed him on purpose.


The number of people that do not realize this is astounding. Vega would be instant A tier if his scarlet terror was invincible. c.strong + scarlet terror = win all over again

screw st vega lol

[DDD]

Bison's links are REALLY easy!

Guile's are hard.

[kevgeez]

Hey Balance isnt always a good thing man.
And besides, i think sf4 is pretty balanced.
I like a little cheese now and then.
Thats why i love ST.

To fix Vega, make him fast again.....more like himself in ST.
It makes no sense why Vega is this slow now.

[akashwan]

Yea Fuerte's ultra does good damage, but lets not forget that it can't be linked through a combo unlike a lot of other characters. If you put in that into prespective, other characters with easy to set up ultras deal way more damage. Since Fuerte's damage output from normals and specials is pretty small (and his stamina is low on top of that), it only makes sense to have his ultra stronger to compensate. This is just my opinion, no need to flame or get angry. On the other hand, if they give him a new ultra that can be used with FADC, then the first ultra is fine as it is.

[GoatHead]

Bison needs more juggling abilities. Just a little more please -- then I might main him :lol:

[BlueFlamingo]

The proper way is to ignore 99% of the posts in this thread. Shit like Sagat is trash in tournaments, sakura needs a crossup ( she already has fuckin crossups come on), give ken ryus fireball, bison sucks bla bla...

[jgh7]

What annoys me is when characters are given command moves that are useless. The two characters I play are guile and chun. Guile's command kick is utterly useless, but it has a lot of potential. It could have been similar to Sagat's where it could be used to juggle someone after a focus cancelled flashkick, possibly even into his ultra, which also is one of the most useless in the game right now.

Chun li has a ton of command moves, half of which are useless. Her foward mk isn't really that good for anything. I absolutely hate her downfoward lk. I don't see any use for that, but maybe there's some high level use that I don't know of. Finally, her back mk leading into her helicopter attack is very weak. It's extremely hard to time her ultra after this attack, and her ultra is the only thing that juggles from it. I think people would have more incentive to use this combo if other things could juggle, like an ex fireball or something.

Anyways, I'm hopin that they tweak these moves to bring out the character's full potential.

[crovax612]

ABEL (my main):

-PLEASE change the command for the Falling sky throw! EVERYONE takes it out on accident every now and again and nothing's worse than c.HP'ing someone to land the ultra only to have falling sky come out (and miss). Maybe make it reverse DP motion?

-Some better anti-air move. He has no options whatsoever right now (besides FC).Beef up c. HP or sky throw range.

Only things I see that NEED to happen for him.

[BlueFlamingo]

Chun is great man. You aren't meant to use b+mk combo, it's an abomination on block, and it's damage isn't even good. d/f lk is situational AA. If I was to give chun anything it would be that her ultra juggles everyone in the corner. Kinda bullshit it drops almost half of the cast.

[Iron 13 Monkey]

They need to put Rufus on a diet, or maybe give him a weightliftingprogram:rofl:

[ShinkuuR]

Didn't we already have a huge sticky thread (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=184074) on balance suggestions for Super?

Yeah but to be honest, that only really helps for arcade characters since they have been out and experimented on for almost a year when the thread ended. We really need a updated list for the console characters to send to Capcom since 2-3 months wasn't enough time to fully explore them.

In Rose's case, I would trade almost all that spiral crap for a good option on wakeup(which wasn't even touched upon in that thread IIRC).

[Iron 13 Monkey]

From a Fei Long Perspective he needs to be given something in these matchups..
Blanka, Zangief, Sagat, Ryu (projectiles)..

[whitey9]

Honda's EX Ochio is basically useless. I like the idea of changing it up, like Viper's EX Thunderknuckle doesn't behave like her regular ones at all.

Either way it's completely fart.

[Shinuza]

-Ultra must do less damage as a whole
-Trading hits on AA = both knockdowns/reset ( no free juggle)
-Sagat's 6hk must have a slowest startup
-SRK (And the likes) should behave as in SF3
-More Ultras to behave like Sakura, Abel, Bison's ones.
-Allow juggles for character like Guile, Claw
-Reversals must be harder to do

[ShadowOS]

I would really like to know why people think Vega should not have a proper ST. Ryu can play a way better run away game than Vega can in SF4, and Ryu get's his godly l.dp bs.

It's because Vega's ST is gimped that he's so low on the tier list. People get to rush down and jump in all day without having to worry about a thing, and Vega gets shoved in a corner and raped repeatedly. He has no way - let me repeat that - NO WAY to escape pressure. Not one. Any Vega or good player can tell you this.

A proper ST is the most important buff to Vega. Everything else listed is nice, but not what holds him back.

[Mr. Basara!!]

What annoys me is when characters are given command moves that are useless. The two characters I play are guile and chun. Guile's command kick is utterly useless, but it has a lot of potential. It could have been similar to Sagat's where it could be used to juggle someone after a focus cancelled flashkick, possibly even into his ultra, which also is one of the most useless in the game right now.

Chun li has a ton of command moves, half of which are useless. Her foward mk isn't really that good for anything. I absolutely hate her downfoward lk. I don't see any use for that, but maybe there's some high level use that I don't know of. Finally, her back mk leading into her helicopter attack is very weak. It's extremely hard to time her ultra after this attack, and her ultra is the only thing that juggles from it. I think people would have more incentive to use this combo if other things could juggle, like an ex fireball or something.

Anyways, I'm hopin that they tweak these moves to bring out the character's full potential.

It's not hard. If it's hard for you, then you just need to practice more, sir.

And I believe you can get an ex SBK or ex Legs after the Tenshokyaku part. I also think you could do an ex fireball afterward, but that would be a waste of meter if you could get legs or sbk for the same cost....

and LOL @ Ryu and Ken having the same fireball, but Ken being the only one with a shoryu that can still hit after 3 c.jabs on most characters. They did BS the relationship between Ken and Ryu in this one. Ken needs to have all around better shoryu and Ryu needs to keep having the all around better hado. Hell, they could worsen Ken's hado even more, as long as he gets a little faster. I think Ken is a rushdown character. He only has the hado nowadays, because he's had it for so long already. Outside of being a semi decent option just outside of footsies range in some match ups, Ken's hadoken is really only useful in his Gief match up.

And why does Bison need buffs. Isn't he the most balanced character already? I mean, he certainly isn't low on the most recent tier list we have. He isn't winning tourneys or anything, but he certainly doesn't need a bunch of crap. I know he has "useless" PCs... But hell, he doesn't really need them. LK Scissors all day, guys.

I think nerfs are a necessity when balancing certain things. Akuma's teleport is a get out of jail free card. It needs more lag on the recovery. I'm not saying it should be super unsafe, but it could stand to have 3 or 4 frames tacked on to the recovery. He needs the same amount of frames after landing from an air fireball. That would keep him from moving and repositioning so fast after tossing them, which would help Gief and Abel against him (can't believe I want to help Gief in ANY match up).

But I'm not tourney player. I can only speak with what I see as trouble in the tourney vids and what I see as trouble when I play (but my comp usually isn't have as good as tourney players). I think Capcom knows what they're doing.

And, on a side note, why does Fei have so few cancelable normals? I don't play him, nor do I aspire to. But when I was recently unlocking Seth (yeah... about 7 months after the game was released), I went through with him and thought it was kinda silly that he didn't have very many cancelable normals. I dunno... Sucks for Fei players, I guess.

[Xavion]

...Sweet chocolate jesus, the "Buff mai mains plz kthxbai" posts are already mounting.

Seriously, before we can even talk balance changes, we need to know:

Whats the deal with the new ultras. Given the video linked at eventhubs (on their front page ATM), it shows T.hawk with a I on his ultra meter, and Juri with a II on hers. This suggests mayhap selectable ultras. We just dont know the detail on this yet.

The focus attack changes (That tandem saving stuff thats rumored). How does that play into things?

Who the new characters are and, more importantly, their movesets compared to their previous incarnations (only the 3S characters have known EX variants of their specials, for example).

How the hell can you have ANY meaningful balance discussion, even theorycrafting, without those and other system details?

In the end, this thread is simply masturbatory ranting about how much more awesome you'd love to see your main get in SSFIV. I mean, suggesting which super to add in is one thing, but breaking down intricate system details, without actually knowing the core system changes, is pointless.

Thus, wank on fellas!

[SuicidalGrandpa]

Ahmen. Gouken's counter should not be able to be armor broken.

He needs to have DP priority to his hurricane kick and make it hit low.

This is so wrong my head hurts. Why should one character get an invincible, mindless parry?

[Devil-Trigger]

Here's my two cents for the chars i use:

El fuerte:

Buff:

- More Hit Points
- Better combos OR general damage buff
- Forward Habanero dash + MK Should change to Guacamole leg throw instead of the useless kick it is now.
- Change the command for quesadilla pull (HCB+K for example, strength determines speed/traveling distance)
- Backwards habanero dash/ex should not be able to be thrown

Nerf:

- Reduce the speed of tostada press/fajita buster/tortilla/slide kick so it can be read a bit more easily
- Remove infinite
- Add a bit of recovery lag after guacamole leg throw/burrito
- Ultra damage should be reduced a bit.

.

so....

you dont want El Fuerte in the game:lol::lol:

the only buff he needs is a reliable armor breaker: i agree that Quesedilla Bomb should be remapped, that would make it more accessible in most fights. Its not a god move anyways, it can be punish on block and get stuffed

or

Make the Sobat (run + MK) armor breaking, so we can actually have a reason to us it.

Capcom did a great job on the 4 main new characters(Abel, Viper, Rufus, Fuerte), they dont need alot of buff/nerfs

[Iron 13 Monkey]

Personally i think Vega is good enough in the matchups agains Fei, but i dont know about the other matchups...

[Iron 13 Monkey]

Nerf Sagat and Blanka

[konkrete]

The proper way is to ignore 99% of the posts in this thread. Shit like Sagat is trash in tournaments, sakura needs a crossup ( she already has fuckin crossups come on), give ken ryus fireball, bison sucks bla bla...
Booo she needs a better one and you know it.

[Mr. Basara!!]

-Ultra must do less damage as a whole
-Trading hits on AA = both knockdowns/reset ( no free juggle)
-Sagat's 6hk must have a slowest startup
-SRK (And the likes) should behave as in SF3
-More Ultras to behave like Sakura, Abel, Bison's ones.
-Allow juggles for character like Guile, Claw
-Reversals must be harder to do

How did SRKs behave in SF3? They hit folks out of the air. They were a decent counter poke (high risk, but high reward). Please elaborate?

More Ultras behave like Sakura, Abel and Bison's? How is that? Juggleable? I don't really see a common ground there, minus the fact that all three are Ultras...

If they shorten the Reversal window, they'll need to do something about meaty focus. I'm pretty sure that was why the reversal window became so large to begin with. In order to shorten the reversal window, you'll have to give some kind of nerf to meaty focus. Maybe make it where you can't be hit by a focus attack for 2 or 3 frames after you wake up? That way it would be easy to just backdash or whatever. I dunno...

[BlueFlamingo]

Booo she needs a better one and you know it.

um no. Just j.lk is fine if you dont suck at spacing. Just because she doesn't have a stupid one like she did in A2 doesn't mean this one isn't adequete. Then we get into her ability to ambiguous crossup with j.HP and randomly j.HK and corner tricks and forget it. Sakura has some of the best jump ins in the game I can't fathom how people complain about that aspect of her game.

[akashwan]

...Sweet chocolate jesus, the "Buff mai mains plz kthxbai" posts are already mounting.

Seriously, before we can even talk balance changes, we need to know:

Whats the deal with the new ultras. Given the video linked at eventhubs (on their front page ATM), it shows T.hawk with a I on his ultra meter, and Juri with a II on hers. This suggests mayhap selectable ultras. We just dont know the detail on this yet.

The focus attack changes (That tandem saving stuff thats rumored). How does that play into things?

Who the new characters are and, more importantly, their movesets compared to their previous incarnations (only the 3S characters have known EX variants of their specials, for example).

How the hell can you have ANY meaningful balance discussion, even theorycrafting, without those and other system details?

In the end, this thread is simply masturbatory ranting about how much more awesome you'd love to see your main get in SSFIV. I mean, suggesting which super to add in is one thing, but breaking down intricate system details, without actually knowing the core system changes, is pointless.

Thus, wank on fellas!

You have a very valid point, and maybe 90% of what has been said in this thread is pointless (including my posts) but I still think its better to have all of us voice our opinions on our mains even without knowing all the new updates in gameplay mechanics. Just in case Capcom is actually reading this stuff (who knows, maybe they do?), it might spark some ideas for them in how to balance the game even more. They should be able to judge which ideas are going to work in the new system, and filter the rest.

But I do agree that maybe some of us, even myself, have thought too much about this and neglected the fact that the core mechanics might change in some sense.

[P.o.t.S.]

More Ultras behave like Sakura, Abel and Bison's? How is that? Juggleable? I don't really see a common ground there, minus the fact that all three are Ultras...

Think he means forcing the opponent to be grounded after a juggle so that the following hits connect perfectly. Would make some characters easier to use, but also sounds like the kind of stuff that'd make characters play more alike to each other (srk FADC suddenly being effective with half the cast).


And I second having balance patches for the more obvious dumb stuff. This being the (supposedly) definitive version of the game and with no need for parallel arcade updates already makes it easy.

[Mariodood]

SF4 was such a balanced game I don't think they have much work to do as far as rebalancing the old characters (they have to be careful with the new ones, though). There are a couple of matchups that are too bad to be acceptable, though.

Sagat vs Zangief (7-3)
Sagat vs Honda (7-3)
Sagat vs Guile (7-3)
Sagat vs Vega (7-3)
Zangief vs Abel (7-3)
Zangief vs Certain Console characters (7-3)
Seth vs Zangief (8-2)

There might be something else I'm forgetting. Anyway, the first thing we can see is that Sagat needs a nerf. He has too many good matchups. Rather than nerfing his damage, I think we should nerf his options. Nerfing his damage is like nerfing Zangief's damage. It doesn't make sense because it's just a part of the character.

I think Sagat should have a bigger vulnerable hitbox in his Tiger Shot animations so he can be hit out of Tiger Shots and his uppercut should have shittier priority/invulnerability (like maybe it only gains lower body invuln on frame 2 so that it loses to low meaties or something.)

Then they just need to fix the other 7-3 matches and I think all the original 17 are fine. They're gonna change more than that, though, so who knows what they have in mind. Personally for Bison I just think he needs more to him. He has a couple of really good moves but hes just an interesting character. I'd like to see more options off of headstomp/devil reverse or something just to make him a little more interesting to play, although not necessarily better. Fei-Long is the same way, although he actually needs to be better. Dude sucks.

[Iron 13 Monkey]

Fei dosnt suck, but he defenetly needs to get better..
To play with him you need to read your opponent well, and be fast as hell..

[ViCiOuSxRaMeN]

Want to balance SSFIV? Give it a an arcade loketest!

Or an online beta test for xbl and psn! Even better make it for people who bought sf4! (Sorry to go abit off topic)

[Shinuza]

How did SRKs behave in SF3? They hit folks out of the air. They were a decent counter poke (high risk, but high reward). Please elaborate?

More Ultras behave like Sakura, Abel and Bison's? How is that? Juggleable? I don't really see a common ground there, minus the fact that all three are Ultras...

If they shorten the Reversal window, they'll need to do something about meaty focus. I'm pretty sure that was why the reversal window became so large to begin with. In order to shorten the reversal window, you'll have to give some kind of nerf to meaty focus. Maybe make it where you can't be hit by a focus attack for 2 or 3 frames after you wake up? That way it would be easy to just backdash or whatever. I dunno...SRK were not the ultimate weapon in SF3, like you do a wake up SRK = you trade ( I don't know the game so well but it's my experience in a few matches versus a srk happy player).

I don't mind if it beat any jump in if will timed, but it give to much advantage to chars with that kind of wake up option.

When you hit someone in a juggleable state with Sakura Abel and Bison it will hit them just as if they were on the ground. Whereas with e.g Feilong, Ken or even Boxer - seriously sometimes the damage input makes me lol - only a few hits will connect and/or the damage will be ridiculous. (Same goes for Cammy but that damage really are acceptable). This really feels unfair, not to mention the character who have one or no ultra setup besides focus (crumple). especially versus Viper, Rufus or Ryu.

[Kabbila]

Dictator



Why do you discuss dictator? He is with the more fortunate ones. Upper mid tier.

This duscussion should be from low to high.

Start with claw, fei long, cammy, rose, dan, fuerte, etc.



IMO the challange is to balance things in a credible way. f.e. they cannot give cammy more muscle power, or set her in a higher stamina caste. Just adding moves would help... or changes in priority.

[colguile]

The only way to balance this game:

Put in Darkwing Duck.

Let him "get dangerous"

Everyone else falls in line. The end

lol

Awesome.:rofl:

What about cammy? I think Cammy needs an overhead BADLY.

[ChuckBartowski]

Fuerte: Splash beats everything

[Cuz]

YOU CAN NOT ONLY ADD BUFFS. Why? Because buffing the tits out of every character makes them do TOO MUCH DAMAGE, or have TOO MANY INVULNERABLE FRAMES.

Lord knows I'd rep you if I could.

[Wikum]

Bison's links are REALLY easy!

Guile's are hard.

i found them harder than guiles but maybe that's just because i am used to guiles. they are definitely harder than ryu's though.

[Mr List]

what they need to do is fly in the top 20-100 sf4 tourney players from around the world for a month long boot camp with the game
(when they think it is getting near balanced)

after that month they should be about ready to fix it up proper.

[hardbodycore]

Want to balance SSFIV? Give it a an arcade loketest!
+rep my Negriod!

[Saint Gut Free]

I don't think the idea of a poke and run character is to be able to escape easily with an invincible move after he gets caught.
His stupid ST is one of the reasons why he is unfuckwitable ass tier in ST and everyone hates him and that's why he sucks in SFIV. They nerfed him on purpose.
What they should change about him IMO:

- Damage up on mask loss (more than atm please).
- Speed increase on mask toss (Two meter bars).
- Maybe slightly better pokes, including sliiide!!
- Fix that walldive bug and make it's recovery better.
- Give him a nice second Ultra, Capcom! But don't make it too damaging!

And that's it. I really don't care about cr.hp since st.rh does about the same. Super is useless anyways and as for the Ultra: He'll get a new one anyways.

Honestly I would be happy with a damage buff of 10% and no mask penalty.

[TommyTwoTime77]

Here's my two cents for the chars i use:

Claw:

Buff:

- full invul on startup for scarlet terror, or at least scarlet terror EX.
- Downforward + MK should be overhead
- Mask/claw throw should be removed
- Ultra should have some invul on startup
- Super should have better priority
- Make Crouching HP go in a higher arc so it could be used as AA like in SF2
- Fix the walljump bug
- Mask/Claw lose should happen only in arcade mode, not in versus.

Nerf:

- Reduce priority in standing HK



I think they should leave the mask and claw removal, but make the benefits actually useful. A noticeable damage and speed increase for mask and claw removal respectively.

[pimp bishop donjon]

I remember when they were developing SF4 and the game was running sort of fast. Ono said that balancing the game at this speed was the easiest way to ensure that it is well balanced, and then it will stay balanced when they slow it down. I never understood that statement. :xeye:

that is disappointing that it was slowed down

because 4 is painfully slow :(

[HDTran]

Slight nerfs would solve more problems than most people realize. Some of the bottom characters have specific problems against the stronger ones more than overall problems against everyone in the cast. Do a few slight nerfs (so that you don't break current balance) of the top characters and basically, bring the top tier a little bit lower, then the game will be fine.

[Xenozip.]

Don't forget that Capcom doesn't actually want the game to be perfectly balanced. Yoshinori Ono said in an interview that he specifically wanted there to be a little unbalance between characters in SF4 to keep things interesting. I doubt he suddenly changed his mind.

And keep in mind that people have been bitching HARD about how powerful/"cheesy" Claw has been in every game he has been in since forever. It's not like Capcom accidentally made him shit tier. They knew what they were doing and they did it for a reason.

In his case, asking for stuff like damage buffs that would make him a universally stronger character doesn't seem like the right thing to ask for IMO. Personally the first thing that springs to mind is his walk speed, since that has a lot more to do with his gameplay and specific matchups. If he was at least fun and interesting to play then it wouldn't matter what tier he is, so what needs changing is his play style IMO, not general buffs.

[Laokin]

Ken needs worse hadukens than Ryu

Otherwise his name would be Ryu

I'm a ken player and I agree with this.

On the other hand, his sweep needs a buff, and his walk speed should be faster than ryu. Ryu should be the slower one... since he plays the zoning game, and Ken plays the Rushdown game.

Ken should be = with ryu in tools, the tools should be different to promote different play style.

Right now Ken is useless in the competitive field, so it's obvious something needs to be done.

His Ultra, too hard to hit with, does too much damage. Should travel forward one grid instead of going straight up, and should do less damage on a full hit, and slightly more damage on a half hit.

His possibilities should remain the same. FADC into ultra/predictive/counter ultra.

This would bring him up to where he should be, instead of being useless in the circuit.

[BlueFlamingo]

Lord knows I'd rep you if I could.

So i'm guessing you didnt read the part of his post that said Sagat was a trash tournament character? jesus.

[Laokin]

Don't forget that Capcom doesn't actually want the game to be perfectly balanced. Yoshinori Ono said in an interview that he specifically wanted there to be a little unbalance between characters in SF4 to keep things interesting. I doubt he suddenly changed his mind.

And keep in mind that people have been bitching HARD about how powerful/"cheesy" Claw has been in every game he has been in since forever. It's not like Capcom accidentally made him shit tier. They knew what they were doing and they did it for a reason.

In his case, asking for stuff like damage buffs that would make him a universally stronger character doesn't seem like the right thing to ask for IMO. Personally the first thing that springs to mind is his walk speed, since that has a lot more to do with his gameplay and specific matchups. If he was at least fun and interesting to play then it wouldn't matter what tier he is, so what needs changing is his play style IMO, not general buffs.


Problem is it doesn't really make anything interesting, you have a select few characters primarily winning tournaments. I.E. this means that all the good players gravitate to the characters with the balance advantage, which ultimately means some one of equal skill using a character at disadvantage will lose everytime.

Nothing interesting about that, as a matter of fact -- this is the ideology that makes it quite the opposite. It makes it boring for anyone who refuses to use those characters as they know their chances are stacked against them.

I don't even want to see any silly "Well pick the higher tiered fighter than" counter arguments either, because that effectively makes over half the cast useless.

I.E., they could just be deleted from the game and there would be virtually no variety.

The whole "What is fair" argument is counter-productive to the lifespan and popularity of the game. Even if it is "Fair" it's called bad design.

[Cuz]

So i'm guessing you didnt read the part of his post that said Sagat was a trash tournament character? jesus.

I quoted what I agreed with. I found that his opinion on Sagat was less evil than the opinion that no nerfs should happen.

ps. and yeah I stopped reading pretty quick after what I quoted.

[arstal]

Real proper way to balance

Plan for 2 balancing patches- one three months in, and another nine months in. Also keep statistics of the top level online matches- that will give you a hint if one chars wins or loses too much (yes: I know lag. Lag wins/lag losses should even out in aggregate over the long term- Central Limit Theorem and all)

After three months, the glaring imbalances should be found
After nine months, the subtle bugs and stuff will mostly if not entirely be found.

Accept that you won't get it right the first time, and use knowledge.

[.:: Miz ::.]

So i'm guessing you didnt read the part of his post that said Sagat was a trash tournament character? jesus.

He is garbage, garrrrrbaaggggeeee :P IN WHOLE, does Sagat win a majority of the tournies that people play him in WORLD-WIDE, making him top-tier?

[The Mullah]

SF4 was such a balanced game I don't think they have much work to do as far as rebalancing the old characters (they have to be careful with the new ones, though). There are a couple of matchups that are too bad to be acceptable, though.

Sagat vs Zangief (7-3)
Sagat vs Honda (7-3)
Sagat vs Guile (7-3)
Sagat vs Vega (7-3)
Zangief vs Abel (7-3)
Zangief vs Certain Console characters (7-3)
Seth vs Zangief (8-2)

There might be something else I'm forgetting. Anyway, the first thing we can see is that Sagat needs a nerf. He has too many good matchups. Rather than nerfing his damage, I think we should nerf his options. Nerfing his damage is like nerfing Zangief's damage. It doesn't make sense because it's just a part of the character.

I think Sagat should have a bigger vulnerable hitbox in his Tiger Shot animations so he can be hit out of Tiger Shots and his uppercut should have shittier priority/invulnerability (like maybe it only gains lower body invuln on frame 2 so that it loses to low meaties or something.)

Then they just need to fix the other 7-3 matches and I think all the original 17 are fine. They're gonna change more than that, though, so who knows what they have in mind. Personally for Bison I just think he needs more to him. He has a couple of really good moves but hes just an interesting character. I'd like to see more options off of headstomp/devil reverse or something just to make him a little more interesting to play, although not necessarily better. Fei-Long is the same way, although he actually needs to be better. Dude sucks.

don't forget sagat blanka which is 7-3 at best.

lol and the scrub earlier who said nerf blanka, he's two spots above vega and guile.

[offcell]

Chun li [...] Finally, her back mk leading into her helicopter attack is very weak. It's extremely hard to time her ultra after this attack, and her ultra is the only thing that juggles from it. I think people would have more incentive to use this combo if other things could juggle, like an ex fireball or something.
Is it really that bad? It's extremely easy to combo into after her target combo, and you can do ex sbk or ex legs after it. Does target combo > two shorts > ex legs do more damage due to scaling? Maybe I'm just a newb who jumps in on opponents. Also, it's not hard to connect the ultra after it, it's just hard to get some of the cast to juggle.

[Mr. Basara!!]

SRK were not the ultimate weapon in SF3, like you do a wake up SRK = you trade ( I don't know the game so well but it's my experience in a few matches versus a srk happy player).

I don't mind if it beat any jump in if will timed, but it give to much advantage to chars with that kind of wake up option.

When you hit someone in a juggleable state with Sakura Abel and Bison it will hit them just as if they were on the ground. Whereas with e.g Feilong, Ken or even Boxer - seriously sometimes the damage input makes me lol - only a few hits will connect and/or the damage will be ridiculous. (Same goes for Cammy but that damage really are acceptable). This really feels unfair, not to mention the character who have one or no ultra setup besides focus (crumple). especially versus Viper, Rufus or Ryu.

In 3s, if you timed a reversal SRK against a meaty, the SRK won. It has invincible start up. Or so I thought... Maybe I'm wrong. I never have my shoryu trade in 3s. Then again, I usually don't use it, since parry is too good.

I get what you're saying about the ultras. I don't think it would make everyone play the same. I think it would just make the ultra set ups everyone already has more solid. Why would Fei be able to juggle a few shitty hits of his Ultra? That's pretty much pointless. It only makes sense, now that you mention it, that if some folks get to juggle their full ultra, then everyone who can juggle their partial ultra should be able to as well... Or at least let the meat of the ultra hit. I hate when Chun's Hosenka doesn't get the upward SBK at the end...

But oh well... If I cared that much, I'd switch to a character that gets full ultra on juggle consistently, rather than playing Ken and Chun. :P

[BlueFlamingo]

He is garbage, garrrrrbaaggggeeee :P IN WHOLE, does Sagat win a majority of the tournies that people play him in WORLD-WIDE, making him top-tier?

This post is a prime example of why this thread should be destroyed. :looney:

[DDD]

I'm a ken player and I agree with this.

On the other hand, his sweep needs a buff, and his walk speed should be faster than ryu. Ryu should be the slower one... since he plays the zoning game, and Ken plays the Rushdown game.

Ken should be = with ryu in tools, the tools should be different to promote different play style.

Right now Ken is useless in the competitive field, so it's obvious something needs to be done.

His Ultra, too hard to hit with, does too much damage. Should travel forward one grid instead of going straight up, and should do less damage on a full hit, and slightly more damage on a half hit.

His possibilities should remain the same. FADC into ultra/predictive/counter ultra.

This would bring him up to where he should be, instead of being useless in the circuit.



Ken is already very fast. His foward medium kick and kara throw make up for his walking. I want them to take out the intro for the ultra.

[.:: Miz ::.]

This post is a prime example of why this thread should be destroyed. :looney:

Please do, it's stopped entertaining me... =\

[Firekid2468]

I'm not going to pretend that I know exactly how to balance this game but...

For Cammy, I'd like to see her attacks re-mapped to the way they are in HDR. I'd also like to see Hooligan Combo throw work on crouching opponents. I'd like to ask for less recovery on Spiral Arrow, but that would probably be :looney: good...

[Shinuza]

In 3s, if you timed a reversal SRK against a meaty, the SRK won. It has invincible start up. Or so I thought... Maybe I'm wrong. I never have my shoryu trade in 3s. Then again, I usually don't use it, since parry is too good.Does reversal gives it more invincible frames?

[ILL_BILL]

I stopped reading when the OP cited Fuerte's RSF as being superior/broken.

[shinblanka]

Blanka wish list:
1. blanka's jump speed and normal attacks need to be faster. It should be as fast or faster than gen's imo. They already made him shorter on his range on normal atacks, but he shouldn't be slow and short imo.
2. Ultra works as anti air= it hit's during the entire animation.
3. :3k: (beast leap) goes over any sweeps/low attacks.
4. EX up blanka ball and EX horizontal blanka ball knocks down on hit!
5. super should be safe on block like cvs2, but the ultra should still be punishable since it deals the most damage imo. Give people a reason/choice to save super meter and use the damn super instead of burning it up with ex moves.
6. give blanka his cvs2 horizontal super/ultra!!!!!!

I don't care how they balance the rest of the cast as long as they don't nerf anyone. Nerfing characters has never properly balanced a game. It just moves the tiers around a bit, but doesn't change anything. nerf's + buff's makes the game worst imo. Buff'ing the weaker characters and leaving the top tier characters the same is a win win imo. The top tier should stay the same and add minor buff's like I suggested for blanka and it should be good. There's only 1 thing I would like to see taken out of sf4 gameplay.

Please take out the TRADE into the juggle! This is the dumbest thing in sf4 imo. Just add the flip out animation that you can't hit them afterwards if you trade with an attack. You shouldn't be rewarded for a trade with an ultra or super juggle. Maybe if blanka could do standing :hk: and trade and juggle with the super or ultra I would like that option but since only a few can properly use it in gameplay I say get rid of that crap.

That's my only gripe with sf4 gameplay. Other than that I think it's the most balanced 1st version of any capcom fighter ever made. It the 1st try and i'm sure capcom will make it 10x better than it already is now in SSF4! I personally don't think sf4 has been explored enough to warrent a new game so soon. We are just starting to unlock the power of the console characters and in 6-8 months the new version of sf4 will be released. Don't get me wrong i'm happy ssf4 is coming out and I can't wait to play with deejay and T-hawk. I hope it's released just before Final Round13.

[FPStud]

Miz, just came in this topic to let you know that you are one of the stupidest fucking humans i've ever encountered. Bye.

[vash]

Here's the easiest way to buff everyone:
- Make sure everyone has a project that isn't their own body
- Everyone has an overhead
- Everyone has command grab
- Everyone can teleport

[ReVivAL]

I just want to see Chun Li's ultra fully connect with any opponent. It already kind of sucks that you have to be near a corner in order to pull of a full ultra but I can live with that as long as some of the smaller hitbox characters can get a full ultra to hit. Other then that I think maybe E.Honda's ex headbutt should go through projectiles but I am not sure how much that would affect the balance of the game. Only two things I would try and change though.

[DevilKnight]

I'd prefer to see the cast at Gen level (ie. pretty darn good) than Ryu/Sagat level.

[DragonPunchPimP]

Test the life out of the game before scrub release

[qOcOp]

Sagat
Improve sagat move speed
Cr.HP bigger hitbox
more range on cr.hk
remove forward hk

[ironraiden]

so....

you dont want El Fuerte in the game:lol::lol:


Not really... I actually love the character :) but if they did all the buffs I proposed, I think it would just be to hard to beat unless some of the nerfs are applied.