Remove input shortcuts [Archive]

Alexander

09-30-2009, 06:35 PM

Only making threads for absolutely essential things that ruin gameplay. This is probably the most annoying thing in SF4. Every fighting game that came before SF4 never had input shortcuts that interfere with gameplay. So many times have I tried to combo into Abel's recka's, only for that annoying air-grab to come out. So many times (in absolutely crucial moments) have I attempted the Dictator's Ultra, only for the teleport to come out.

Please remove input shortcuts and/or make them an option that can be turned off.

If someone cannot figure out how to do a Hadouken even when the game teaches them how to do it. Then they shouldn't be playing fighting games. Case closed.

.:: Miz ::.

09-30-2009, 06:39 PM

Yes please. Not that it's a huge issue, but that every so often that an SRK or fireball comes out and the other should have... is annoying.

shinblanka

09-30-2009, 06:59 PM

This is the best request imo in this section. Please remove the short cut for special moves/super motions in ssf4. Please get rid of that and trading dp's AA or ground AA trade into the juggle special move/super move/ultra combo. Don't reward someone with an attack that trades to beable to do juggle combo. That's why sagat's standing rh or dp is so great. If he couldn't juggle off of a trade he wouldn't be scary at all imo. Of course there's way more to sagat than just some silly juggles, but only a few characters can use that tactic so either give it to everyone or take it out completely.

Maybe i'm salty because blanka can't do it on sf4. :lol:

MrSimtang

09-30-2009, 07:02 PM

ok this one i agree 100 per cent with.

so many times u try to do super or ultra and a SRK comes out. it just dumbs down the game for mouth breathing nubs who can't follow inputs correctly.

Chi-Do-Ri

09-30-2009, 07:05 PM

RageMufc

09-30-2009, 07:10 PM

I like this as well. Good idea to include a disable feature.

specs

09-30-2009, 07:11 PM

GensouGoroshi

09-30-2009, 07:12 PM

I support this wholeheartedly. SF4 should never have had input shortcuts in the first place. None of the others did.

Sarangha

09-30-2009, 07:14 PM

Yeah taking out shortcuts is the best thing possible for SSF4. It also helps new players transition to other fighters. Making it easy for them to do a dragon punch is just spoon feeding.

AniMoney

09-30-2009, 07:16 PM

Yep there needs to be an option for this in the button config menu or something.

Niko9193

09-30-2009, 07:18 PM

yeah input shortcuts are too retarted. let's bring some skill back to this game

mdsfx

09-30-2009, 07:18 PM

yes indeed.

dood23

09-30-2009, 07:24 PM

this should be an option, removing them would make playing on gamepads worse than it already is imo, since they don't have the precision of a stick.

specs

09-30-2009, 07:28 PM

Yeah taking out shortcuts is the best thing possible for SSF4. It also helps new players transition to other fighters. Making it easy for them to do a dragon punch is just spoon feeding.

If you specifically mean the DF, DF shortcut, then I agree.

But, outside of that shortcut, I'd prefer the leniency of SF4's motion commands. They don't cause harm.

Dr. B is lenient and forgiving, unless you cross him, and then he slashes a B on your chest that hurts and explodes.

Alexander

09-30-2009, 07:33 PM

this should be an option, removing them would make playing on gamepads worse than it already is imo, since they don't have the precision of a stick.

Don't know what you'e talking about, man. I use a PS2 pad on PC, and I can get SRK's, Hadoukens, and SNK-style supers out no problem. Fortunately I should be getting a Happ stick next week to take my game to the next level.

.:: Miz ::.

09-30-2009, 07:35 PM

Don't know what you'e talking about, man. I use a PS2 pad on PC, and I can get SRK's, Hadoukens, and SNK-style supers out no problem. Fortunately I should be getting a Happ stick next week to take my game to the next level.

Except that HAPP stick has some of the worst arcade parts possible in it, made by a company named HAPP.

Rsnake91

09-30-2009, 07:37 PM

the shortcuts needs to go.. they are so annoying.

Alexander

09-30-2009, 07:38 PM

Mine was a custom. Plus it's Happ Competition level.

~rh

09-30-2009, 07:38 PM

Best request since the influx of whiny bitch threads because of the recent announcements/rumors.

There should definitely be an option in the controls menu that disables enables shortcuts in SSF4. I can't tell you how many times I teleport when I input Dictators Ultra.

j0ns

09-30-2009, 07:39 PM

I don't see why this is a problem. If people like mashing out, fine but it's hardly gonna help them against even decent players.

Stay Crispy

09-30-2009, 07:41 PM

~rh

09-30-2009, 07:43 PM

I don't see why this is a problem. If people like mashing out, fine but it's hardly gonna help them against even decent players.

That's not the point. When we do an input, sometimes the game's leniency registers it as a shortcut for another move.

An example would be if you are charging down back with Dic. You do the Ultra motion from charging downback, but A LOT of the time it will register as double downback 3K and I will teleport instead of an Ultra.

tonylew84

09-30-2009, 07:44 PM

It's console.

Make the option to turn it on and off please!

Syg

09-30-2009, 08:00 PM

I've never seen the srk community whole heartedly agree on an issue like this, it brings a tear to my eye it does :')

Yuk_Fai

09-30-2009, 08:07 PM

Agreed, get rid of the shortcuts please (well, allow us to disable them... if we could select specific shortcuts to disable, that would be FANTASTIC)

Electric Stuff

09-30-2009, 08:08 PM

I agree as well! At the very least soften the affect of the shortcut! It's hilarious how forward quarter circle is more "shoryuken" than the traditional motion...

Flushes

09-30-2009, 08:09 PM

Like everyone said, just make it switch in options. Everyone is happy.

SSblanka

09-30-2009, 08:13 PM

keep short-cuts. i like them. a lot easier doing a shoryuken from a crouching position/combo. and yes i can do it the regular way easily also. it just depends on what i'm doing. sometimes i use the normal way. other times i use the short-cut. only thing is the ultra should override the EX or teleport, but i rarely get that nowadays.

Jon Studd

09-30-2009, 08:16 PM

Oh god. I would win so many more matches with Seth if this were to happen,

Sunstrike

09-30-2009, 08:28 PM

ok this one i agree 100 per cent with.

so many times u try to do super or ultra and a SRK comes out. it just dumbs down the game for mouth breathing nubs who can't follow inputs correctly.

Hate to say it, but that is not an input shortcut problem.

For qcfx2 ultras a shoryuken often comes out because you are pressing the 3xpunch/kick a bit early. Normally that would be within the input window for most other moves, however, in a qcfx2 the last 4 motions are as follows:

forward,down,down-forward,forward.

If you press 3x punch/kick even a fraction before the last forward then guess what comes out? (SRK, considering the most recent motions you entered form perfect, no shortcut, fwd,dwn,dwn-fwd SRK motion).

I think a look into the input leniency system (basically shortcuts come because SF4 accepts down-forward for both down and forward in determining a move) could be in order, but I know that the ultra getting SRK thing that everybody yells about isn't caused by that. A possible fix for that problem is to make it so ex moves cannont be performed with 3x p/k (so that pressing 3xp a fraction early wouldn't get an ex SRK and it would fall within in the normal input window for super/ultra).

Edit: Also consider that removing input leniancy makes it immpossible to juggle into ultra for rog. To juggle you use up-back motion for headbutt, which preserves back charge due to the input leniency, allowing you to get the ultra off before he hits the ground. I'm not sure if there is any other major fallout from removing input leniency though.

Sarangha

09-30-2009, 08:32 PM

Dr. B is lenient and forgiving, unless you cross him, and then he slashes a B on your chest that hurts and explodes.

:crybaby:

But no seriously, watch out for shortcuts. They lead to bad habits when playing other fighters. Not to mention accidental teleports when doing ultra's. I feel there should be an easy mode option for people who prefer sf4's current input system and a more traditional system as default.

RagingStormX

09-30-2009, 08:33 PM

Projectjustice

09-30-2009, 08:33 PM

The only shortcut that should be outright removed is the DF, DF shortcut. Everything else is fine.

Dr. B doesn't take shortcuts. Unless by shortcuts you mean he doesn't take long to cut down... a GUNDAM. :wow:

I disagree, theres nothing worst than inputting Bison's Ultra and you end up teleporting away.

TonyTheTiger

09-30-2009, 08:34 PM

The worst is the shortcuts that waste supers. I hate blocking low, then when I do DP, a super comes out. Sure, it hits, but all i needed was a DP to win the round. Now next round I have no meter at all. How do I get a super when I am clearly ending the motion in D/F.?

Somehow :db:,:r:,:d:,:df:,:p: = super.

Therein lies the problem with the shortcuts. The problem isn't necessarily their inclusion. The problem is their priority. There's no reason whatsoever that a completed shortcut motion should take priority over a completed actual motion. So I'd be happy with any of these solutions.

1) Fix the priority problems.
2) Give one of those "manual" or "easy" options at the character select screen thereby allowing the player to disable the :df: :df: shortcut.
3) Remove it entirely.

I disagree, theres nothing worst than inputting Bison's Ultra and you end up teleporting away.

That is the :df: :df: shortcut. Or rather the reverse :db: :db:. It's the shoryuken shortcut interfering with Bison's ultra. For some stupid reason the game interprets charge :db: :r: :db: :r: :3k: as :db: :db: :3k:. How ironic that the shortcut designed to make shoryuken and reverse shoryuken inputs more lenient made other motions more strict.

ahkeentayway

09-30-2009, 08:38 PM

I disagree, theres nothing worst than inputting Bison's Ultra and you end up teleporting away.

But that's the shortcut that's causing the problem you mentioned.

VariantX

09-30-2009, 08:38 PM

Hate to say it, but that is not an input shortcut problem.

For qcfx2 ultras a shoryuken often comes out because you are pressing the 3xpunch/kick a bit early. Normally that would be within the input window for most other moves, however, in a qcfx2 the last 4 motions are as follows:

forward,down,down-forward,forward.

If you press 3x punch/kick even a fraction before the last forward then guess what comes out? (SRK, considering the most recent motions you entered form perfect, no shortcut, fwd,dwn,dwn-fwd SRK motion).

I think a look into the input leniency system (basically shortcuts come because SF4 accepts down-forward for both down and forward in determining a move) could be in order, but I know that the ultra getting SRK thing that everybody yells about isn't caused by that. A possible fix for that problem is to make it so ex moves cannont be performed with 3x p/k (so that pressing 3xp a fraction early wouldn't get an ex SRK and it would fall within in the normal input window for super/ultra).

This is so infuriating when i try to do challenges with the x-box 360 controller. Id rather do it right or not do it at all tbh. Is this problem worse with a joystick or better?

ahkeentayway

09-30-2009, 08:42 PM

This is so infuriating when i try to do challenges with the x-box 360 controller. Id rather do it right or not do it at all tbh. Is this problem worse with a joystick or better?

It's your timing, that's all.

Wait until you have hit the last :r: in the :qcf::qcf: motion before you hit :3p:

Hitting the :3p: before the final :r: would result in the game interpreting your input as :dp:+:3p: (The preceeding :d::df: will be ignored)

Moopie

09-30-2009, 08:47 PM

I'll take or leave the shortcuts but the buffer for inputs seems silly in SF4.

It holds commands longer than I'd like.

ahkeentayway

09-30-2009, 08:48 PM

I'll take or leave the shortcuts but the buffer for inputs seems silly in SF4.

It holds commands longer than I'd like.

That's a good thing for charge characters. It's essential even.

Projectjustice

09-30-2009, 08:49 PM

But that's the shortcut that's causing the problem you mentioned.

They should remove 99% of shortcuts! There is absoulutely no need for a SRK shortcut.

Stay Crispy

09-30-2009, 08:50 PM

I'll take or leave the shortcuts but the buffer for inputs seems silly in SF4.

It holds commands longer than I'd like.

This is the real problem. There are too many frames to complete motions. when you do your motion, it keeps your last input too long then shortcuts it to something else. I'd actually be fine with shortcuts if they tightened up the input windows.

I actually enjoy abusing the shit out of the d/f, d, d/f shortcut. I actually like the "plinking demon" shortcut too.

ahkeentayway

09-30-2009, 08:54 PM

This is the real problem. There are too many frames to complete motions. when you do your motion, it keeps your last input too long then shortcuts it to something else. I'd actually be fine with shortcuts if they tightened up the input windows.

I actually enjoy abusing the shit out of the d/f, d, d/f shortcut. I actually like the "plinking demon" shortcut too.

I don't understand, how is the wide buffer window a problem?

Stay Crispy

09-30-2009, 09:03 PM

I don't understand, how is the wide buffer window a problem?

Because it can result in moves your not intending to do.

Holding in a direction is really being in a constant of inputting that direction. holding down/back puts you in a state that whatever motion you do next will count as having a down or a back in front of it. if there is a short cut that counts your motion with either a down or back infront of it, you'll get that instead of your intended move.

So if your blocking low, you cant instanly do DP because the game will recognize it as :d:,:r:,:d:,:r:,:p: which counts as a super motion because diagonals count as either direction, which is fine. It is always this way. The game includes the D/B infront of your motion because the wide input window

.:: Miz ::.

09-30-2009, 09:06 PM

That's a good thing for charge characters. It's essential even.

It was so essential in HDR where Guile is GREAT... >_>"

Oh yeah and hey, guy with PoS HAPP stick. Even though it's "high quality" parts, it's STILL HAPP.

Metroxylon

09-30-2009, 09:11 PM

I think my problem regarding shortcuts and input timing is that I just haven't learned the game well enough.

I notice times when I cross up as Rose and then I go for a standing medium punch, I end up accidentally MP FB, which for Rose is REALLY bad that close up. I imagine my problem is that I don't let my stick rest in the neutral position enough if it's not required. I mean if I'm attacking, and I get counter-hit, it doesn't matter if I was holding back.

I think if anything, scrubs like me get ruined by our own problems. can't blame the system for saying I was going for a fireball if I indeed pushed in the buttons which made me fireball.

Bucket

09-30-2009, 09:13 PM

only thing is the ultra should override the EX or teleport, but i rarely get that nowadays.

True.. I think peoples major beef is not actually with the shortcuts but with the priority and it's not really possible to make everyone happy on what has priority. Even if shortcuts are removed, everyone will still have moments where execution fails.

One way to fix this problem is to break from tradition and change some of the move sets so they are less similar. (ie Ryu's dp and hdk). The other way to fix this problem would be to reduce the amount of time an input will be accepted. Thus motions will have to be performed faster.

Zanken

09-30-2009, 09:15 PM

Select your character
Select your colour
Select your personal action
Select your style (normal/beginner)

Just saying.

-PXG-

09-30-2009, 09:20 PM

Don't get rid of it. Make it an option you can turn on or off. Give the player the choice. Look at shooters: Some people like auto centering, some don't.

Phoenix Reborn

09-30-2009, 09:27 PM

I agree. At the very least give the player the option to turn it on / off. That way, those who feel they benefit from the shortcuts can use them, and those who don't like them can turn them off. Best of both worlds.

kedawa

09-30-2009, 09:27 PM

The dp shortcut is some Tekken shit that doesn't belong in SF.

AniMoney

09-30-2009, 09:29 PM

A possible fix for that problem is to make it so ex moves cannont be performed with 3x p/k (so that pressing 3xp a fraction early wouldn't get an ex SRK and it would fall within in the normal input window for super/ultra).

This probably won't happen because pad players use the 3p/3k buttons for ex moves as well.

ahkeentayway

09-30-2009, 09:30 PM

Because it can result in moves your not intending to do.

Holding in a direction is really being in a constant of inputting that direction. holding down/back puts you in a state that whatever motion you do next will count as having a down or a back in front of it. if there is a short cut that counts your motion with either a down or back infront of it, you'll get that instead of your intended move.

So if your blocking low, you cant instanly do DP because the game will recognize it as :d:,:r:,:d:,:r:,:p: which counts as a super motion because diagonals count as either direction, which is fine. It is always this way. The game includes the D/B infront of your motion because the wide input window

Hmm, I haven't encountered the problem you're describing, maybe because I play Chun and Honda.

The buffer window works wonders for me, I usually do the Charge :l:,:r:,:l:,:r: Ultra motion a second beforehand in anticipation of a possibility to punish ... The buffer window is beautiful.

Some characters actually need it for some combos ... Chun Li's trial for instance. (Hazanshu -> Super)

Robbie.C

09-30-2009, 09:32 PM

Shortcuts are Lame. I was Planning on Playing Cammy but I didn't like the idea of them so I went Rog. Not a Bad choice but I dislike how I changed my character based annoying shortcuts. I plan on playing Dud in the new game so heres to hoping there remove them.

Check out my BalROG results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT5nNPwuzcA not bad

Digital717

09-30-2009, 09:34 PM

I agree!!!! Mainly because wasting my whole super bar pisses me off beyond belief when all I was trying to do was seismo. If I wanted a super I would have done the motions of a super.

Kich

09-30-2009, 09:41 PM

That is the :df: :df: shortcut. Or rather the reverse :db: :db:. It's the shoryuken shortcut interfering with Bison's ultra. For some stupid reason the game interprets charge :db: :r: :db: :r: :3k: as :db: :db: :3k:. How ironic that the shortcut designed to make shoryuken and reverse shoryuken inputs more lenient made other motions more strict.

Actually, the :df::df: shortcut doesn't work. It's not real.

Proof: A video that took me all of 1-2 minutes to make, the laziness of people astounds me. Why does no one take the time to verify this crap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCjBD3xFsDQ

When people say there are shortcuts, they're not correct. There is not a single existing shortcut in the game. A short cut would be something that reduces the amount of inputs necessary to complete an action, those don't exist.

What people actually mean is input leniency; there's a lot of leeway in the game as to what direction does what. For instance, :df::d::df: would result in a shoryuken, but that's not a short cut, you're still inputting 3 directional buttons and it results in a shoryuken. The only thing that changed is the actual directions you pushed, NOT how many you pushed.

Even when people refer to Akuma's raging demon, you're not putting it in 3 moves (lp, lp, b+lk+fp) <-- while it comes out faster, no doubt, and it's a shortcut in terms of time, it's not an actual shortcut as you're still pressing every single required button in order to do the attack.

There's some gimmicky video out there that shows "short cuts" that are really just a series of input leniencies except for 1 that he somehow glitched out (:d::r::p: he was able to produce a shoryuken, but this was due to the game not recognizing one of the inputs he put in, because at the very least that would result in a hadouken, not a shoryu).

Short cuts don't exist, they never, ever have. You could try the Shoryuken "shortcut" of :df::df::p: as many times as you POSSIBLY want, while showing the inputs so you can prove to yourself that it will never, ever, ever occur.

Just because you press your stick or pad in a direction twice doesn't mean you're pressing -just- those directions.

So what it really comes down to is stop being so imprecise. Way back when there was no input leniency and it was kind of a pain in the ass to get moves out, did SF4 go overboard on it? Yes, the input time and leniency is pretty huge and it could certainly be toned down, but shortcuts do not exist.

Shoryu Reppa

09-30-2009, 09:43 PM

please make input shortcuts optional and have them turned on by default for all the new comers

Actually, the :df::df: shortcut doesn't work. It's not real.

Proof: A video that took me all of 1-2 minutes to make, the laziness of people astounds me. Why does no one take the time to verify this crap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCjBD3xFsDQ

This video is just as interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHd6G-YG090

The most random incoherent motions result in a DP.

123►Genei-Jin

09-30-2009, 09:49 PM

I fully endorse this as well, I'm sick of throwing random supers whenever I attempt a seismo while having full ar.

specs

09-30-2009, 09:56 PM

I disagree, theres nothing worst than inputting Bison's Ultra and you end up teleporting away.

I stand corrected then: the DF, DF shortcut AND teleports that need 3 buttons. Really does any teleport NEED three buttons anymore?

Also: Balrog's DF charge move inconsistency (how Dash Low doesn't override Dash Straight, but the low kick one overrides Dash Upper).

Dr. B can teleport with zero buttons.

robotic elf

09-30-2009, 10:07 PM

Hmm, I haven't encountered the problem you're describing, maybe because I play Chun and Honda.

The buffer window works wonders for me, I usually do the Charge :l:,:r:,:l:,:r: Ultra motion a second beforehand in anticipation of a possibility to punish ... The buffer window is beautiful.

Some characters actually need it for some combos ... Chun Li's trial for instance. (Hazanshu -> Super)

Not to mention her dash Ultra, which would likely be much harder if not impossible without leniancy.

please make input shortcuts optional and have them turned on by default for all the new comers

This video is just as interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHd6G-YG090

The most random incoherent motions result in a DP.
There are no shortcuts, only leniancy. Every one of those is a forward motion, then a down motion, then a forward motion, then a punch*. This is how you do an uppercut. Yes there are often extra movements in the middle and maybe it allows too many, and yes it out prioritises fireball a lot, but it allways has, and these are matters of degrees, of getting the exact time of inputs allowed other directions correct, not of just "removing shortcuts" which are obviously not what's going on there.

*Yes, it looks like he gets on from :d:, :r:, :p:, but he's doing it just as he starts the match so it's pretty obvious an input of :r: was cut off by the start.

I am going to agree that either the input leniancy should be lowered or an option included which allows you to lower it, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't work like people seem to think it does.

Stay Crispy

09-30-2009, 10:17 PM

please make input shortcuts optional and have them turned on by default for all the new comers

This video is just as interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHd6G-YG090

The most random incoherent motions result in a DP.

damn, I forgot about that video. I made that video, and yes, the :d::r::hp: one is not legit at all. I just recorded my self doing a bunch of F, D, F-ish motions. The :d::r::hp: was a result of the game not recognizing my initial forward input due to the start menu. I was obviously never able to reproduce it again. that one was a random freak occurrence.

It is true that it is really a matter of leniency. as long as you have a fowrward (including diagonals), a down (d/b, d, d/f), forward and a punch, you get a DP

Dandy J

09-30-2009, 10:27 PM

Maybe I'm just getting old but i am of the belief that in a 'traditional' sf game (i.e. you jump in the open -> you get hit) you should never, ever be able to perform a dp without hitting FORWARD.

In the old games using your low pokes in the ground/footsie game and being aware enough to react to the jump-in took some skills because of the way you have to shift to standing before you did a dp, or using whiffed low moves to buffer in the motion without standing. It actually added to the game and was one of many things that allowed players to be more offensive. In 3s, 323 dp was fine, but not in a more traditional game like sf4.

Drexion

09-30-2009, 10:30 PM

Kich I do believe for the supers/ultras which require 6 input directions, you can input 5 of the directions and it will work. (like d,df,d,df,f for qcfx2 for example - I haven't tested this thoroughly though).Otherwise your post is spot on.

Actually, the :df::df: shortcut doesn't work. It's not real.Correct.

Hate to say it, but that is not an input shortcut problem.Correct.

Looks like Kich beat me to it.

Some people who complain about "shortcuts", don't realize that their issue is with another aspect of the game and not any kind of shortcut system whatsoever. For instance, many of the people complaining about shortcuts don't realize their issue is with either Input Leniency, Time Leniency, or Overlapping move-sets.

Input leniency: Any move in the same hemisphere will qualify for a directional input. So for example if you need to press back, you can use up-back, back, or down-back and any of those will qualify. So for example guile can do a sonic boom from down-back instead of back. Or a shoto can do a DP by doing ANY forward, ANY down, ANY forward. So you can get a DP from up-foward, down-back, up-forward.

Time Leniency: The time window for inputs has been increased, so that the game will read the input buffer for a longer time than previous SF games. Which means you can perform moves slower than you would in previous games. As a result a direction you held from a previous move will get read in the buffer and will contribute to the move the game will think you are trying to perform. For example this is why you get a lot more walking forward into an hadouken turning into a DP in this game than previous SF titles, as you need to pause for a longer time frame.

Overlapping Move-Sets:When some characters (particularly the shotos) have many moves, like fireballs/supers/ultras/uppercuts etc which require similar directional motions its obvious that occasionally the wrong move will come out - even if the game did not have input leniency or time leniency. If for example with a shoto if there were a way you can specify in the game options that your fireball should now be qcb instead of qcf you would have a lot less unwanted moves happening, as less moves will now overlap.

Common Misconception: It is a common misconception that the game has specific input shortcuts built into it. For example many guides, players and even some pros will tell you that DF,DF, Punch is a shortcut for a DP. They are all wrong, no such "shortcut" exists. You can test this yourself, if you get a DP from that motion it means you accidentally hit an extra input (Down) when attempting the DF,DF and its the input leniency which gave you the DP. The Input Leniency in the game is often mistaken for built in shortcuts, which the game does not have per se.

Most of the people complaining about shortcuts don't realize that "shortcuts" are not the cause of their problems, but one of the above factors.

Edit: Also consider that removing input leniency makes it impossible to .....Correct. If Input leniency was removed there would be a lot more complaining than there is now. Especially from pad players who make up the vast majority of the player base.

The current system isn't perfect and definitely needs tweaking, but the people who complain and say "omfg taek away teh fookin' shortcutzzz nowwww OMFGGG!!!" without thinking things through don't ever consider the issues which would arise with a truly strict input system.

Dandy J

09-30-2009, 10:32 PM

Shortcuts are real, you can do a dp without pressing forward, i.e. without standing up.

Bisonopolis

09-30-2009, 10:32 PM

im just tired of teleporting instead of Ultra with bison

RGoose18

09-30-2009, 10:38 PM

I rarely post, but I have to reply to this thread

Down with the input shortcuts!!!!

Anyone w/ half a brain can get the inputs correctly, the on/off feature is a great idea

nobusiness

09-30-2009, 10:43 PM

And when the shortcuts go away people will have no one to blame but themselves. If you get SRK instead of ultra you're pressing the button too soon.

Drexion

09-30-2009, 10:49 PM

Shortcuts are real, you can do a dp without pressing forward, i.e. without standing up.And you can perform a sonic boom with Guile without walking backwards. As mentioned many times already in this thread, that is not a shortcut - it is input leniency. The first DF qualifies as "forward", as its in the same hemisphere.

If input leniency were removed that would be an automatic mega-nerf of the entire cast of charge characters.

And when the shortcuts go away people will have no one to blame but themselves. If you get SRK instead of ultra you're pressing the button too soon.Even in the game as is that it not the fault of any kind of 'shortcut', but the player's faulty input. He's either pressing the buttons too early or is not inputting the qcfx2 correctly. That is more an issue of overlapping move-sets which I mentioned above.

If input leniency were removed not only would he still have that exact same problem, it would be worse for him cause now the ultra will require strict inputs.

chicko1983

09-30-2009, 10:58 PM

rycexboi

09-30-2009, 10:59 PM

im just tired of teleporting instead of Ultra with bison

If removing shortcut inputs, you would of just stood there, I don't see why it would help you during that situation.

I don't see any issues with them or pros having any issue. This is a players fault for not making the right input and removing this would probably give new players a harder time since they would have to make perfect inputs.

ahkeentayway

09-30-2009, 11:01 PM

noob question: how come I can seem to do the ultras fairly consistently with Balrog but when I do the same with Bison it comes out as a teleport? Its the same motion?!?! I assume its got something to do with the input shortcuts?

It's because Balrog doesn't have any move that requires the :dp: motion.

If he did, you would probably be getting that move instead of his Ultra.

It's all in your execution, instead of going ...

Charge :l:,:r:,:l:,:r: + :3p:

You're probably going ...

Charge :l:,:df:,:db:,:df: + :3p:

Does the latter half of the second command look familiar? It should ... That's his teleport. Fortunately for you, Balrog doesn't have a move mapped to that motion.

rycexboi

09-30-2009, 11:06 PM

noob question: how come I can seem to do the ultras fairly consistently with Balrog but when I do the same with Bison it comes out as a teleport? Its the same motion?!?! I assume its got something to do with the input shortcuts?

Training mode is there for a reason, you can check if you were doing the inputs right. When I was a scrub I was mostly in training mode checking which problems I had. Now I don't even have any problems doing my moves.

martyr84

09-30-2009, 11:08 PM

I agree; but it think removing it entirely is a asking for too much.

I think they just need to tone it down, maybe make it less flexible.

A good solution is make it so that abilities don't overlap with these shortcuts by actually changing the motion of certain moves. For example Bisons ultra turning into a teleport; a simple solution would be changing the ultra input to something like Guiles ultra input or vice versa

moocus

09-30-2009, 11:09 PM

ahkeentayway

09-30-2009, 11:38 PM

port over 3s inputs, please. it's really the way things should be.

or have 3 options: (1) sf4 casual inputs (2) 3s inputs or (3) st inputs. name it whatever you want but that's really what it should boil down to. jesus i hope this game doesn't end up sucking balls.

Or people could just work on their execution?

There's really nothing difficult about going ... Back, Forward, Back, Forward.

lolitsme

09-30-2009, 11:44 PM

yeah totally agree dudes whiffs flash kick im Bison i go for a sure ultra bam teleport

nick2193

09-30-2009, 11:46 PM

On keyboard you can do a shoryuken from crouching block

hold db then tap forward twice

LVN2RN

09-30-2009, 11:48 PM

i agree with the disable feature on shortcuts

chicko1983

09-30-2009, 11:52 PM

It's because Balrog doesn't have any move that requires the :dp: motion.

If he did, you would probably be getting that move instead of his Ultra.

It's all in your execution, instead of going ...

Charge :l:,:r:,:l:,:r: + :3p:

You're probably going ...

Charge :l:,:df:,:db:,:df: + :3p:

Does the latter half of the second command look familiar? It should ... That's his teleport. Fortunately for you, Balrog doesn't have a move mapped to that motion.

ok, that explains it. I am usually always charging :db: with Balrog and doing the Ultra along the bottom of the dpad i.e. Charge :db:,:df:,:db:,:df: + :3p:

Yeah I agree then, take out the input shortcuts so I can do the ultra for Bison without altering my technique!

moocus

09-30-2009, 11:53 PM

Or people could just work on their execution?

There's really nothing difficult about going ... Back, Forward, Back, Forward.

i mean in general, not specific to what you were addressing earlier. it's not a secret that the current input system is wonky to say the least, though. it was simpler in 3s. i'd rather have a super not come out due to my own execution error rather than have them randomly shoot out all the time due to bullshit input leniency.

LVN2RN

10-01-2009, 12:03 AM

ok, that explains it. I am usually always charging :db: with Balrog and doing the Ultra along the bottom of the dpad i.e. Charge :db:,:df:,:db:,:df: + :3p:

Yeah I agree then, take out the input shortcuts so I can do the ultra for Bison without altering my technique!

sadly, this is where all the "suggestions" are based on

bunch of scrubs who cant execute a simple ultra who wants capcom to accommodate their lack of execution skills

Drexion

10-01-2009, 12:06 AM

Yeah I agree then, take out the input shortcuts so I can do the ultra for Bison without altering my technique!:looney: The input leniency is what allows you to charge down-back with rog, and is what allows you to perform rog's ultra using the above mentioned motion easily. Removing that would be a huge nerf to all charge characters.

Bison's ultra/teleport problem is overlapping/similar movesets, not shortcuts. The game technically does not have input shortcuts, it just has input leniency which is a whole different thing entirely.

What Bison players should be asking for is to change the input for his ultra around so it isn't so similar to his teleport.

rycexboi

10-01-2009, 12:17 AM

ok, that explains it. I am usually always charging :db: with Balrog and doing the Ultra along the bottom of the dpad i.e. Charge :db:,:df:,:db:,:df: + :3p:

Yeah I agree then, take out the input shortcuts so I can do the ultra for Bison without altering my technique!

Even taking out the input shortcuts, you would need to input the perfect command. It would not help making it easier for you to do ultra.

Simple solution to all these request is to DO YOUR EXECUTION CORRECTLY..

FMJaguar

10-01-2009, 12:25 AM

And you can perform a sonic boom with Guile without walking backwards. As mentioned many times already in this thread, that is not a shortcut - it is input leniency. The first DF qualifies as "forward", as its in the same hemisphere.

You could always perform a sonic boom that way, you do not always get a dp from mashing, you can obviously have both moves work correctly if you wanted them to.

If input leniency were removed that would be an automatic mega-nerf of the entire cast of charge characters.

Lets say we implemented the change "to do a dp, you must hit forward before d,df", how does that affect anything other than a DP? Your rewriting the change into some huge system mechanic when it doesn't necessarily need to be. If you are obviously trying to do Bison's ultra, you should get bison's ultra and not a teleport. You do not need to change the entire input system to make this happen.

Being able to executing the motion is an irrelevant point, if I said you could only throw fireballs if you did a 720 you would learn to do it, but it would be dumb. Same here, the 'correct' way of doing some things is bad, and should be changed to a 'correct' way that is sensible.

wakeupdead

10-01-2009, 12:42 AM

They should just add an option to turn shortcuts on/off in the control setup menu.

ahkeentayway

10-01-2009, 12:46 AM

They should just add an option to turn shortcuts on/off in the control setup menu.

Except there are no shortcuts in the game.

chicko1983

10-01-2009, 12:51 AM

My technique not orthodox and I would say that I have good execution - with Balrog (I can throw out pretty much what I want but still not the best at cancelling headbuts into ultras, only need more practice).

Charge characters need the advantage of charging :db: so that they can either follow it into either :u: or :fwd: or :df: + a kick or punch button which is three different special moves with Balrog.

Its a fair trade for not being able to cancel specials into ultras as easily as some of the shoto characters.

I mean, the imput leniency/shortcuts were invented for people with square gate fight sticks using characters which needed to do the shoryuken motion wasn't it? Its detrimental to charge characters.

Also, why is it that with Bison, the :db: between the first and second :df: doesn't cancel the input leniency/shortcut?

edit - I think the best thing for all players would be:

capcom to introduce :df:, df: as a legitimate shortcut which can be turned on or off and charge characters can execute Ultras/Supers either along the bottom of the dpad (like I said earlier) or the standard left, right, left, right.
This would make everyone happy wouldnt it?

Drexion

10-01-2009, 01:18 AM

Lets say we implemented the change "to do a dp, you must hit forward before d,df", how does that affect anything other than a DP?Nearly all the posts in this thread are about about "shortcuts" in the entire game, not about the input moves of one or two characters or moves.

If you really want to suggest editing the moves of a specific character the thread for that specific character will be a better place for feedback from its users.

And finally if you only want to edit specific characters, it'll only be the opposite complaint "why does X character have the advantage of input leniency when my character does not? "

If you are obviously trying to do Bison's ultra, you should get bison's ultra and not a teleport.Pray tell, exactly which shortcut causes Bison's teleport to occur instead of his Ultra ? The answer ? None. It's the same thing with Ryu's complaining about shortcuts turning their ultra's into DPs. There is no such "shortcut" which causes that.

As mentioned before, Bison's problem is that of overlapping/similar move-sets. If there were no input leniency in the game, you would STILL have the EXACT SAME ISSUE with Bison, his teleport occuring when attempting an Ultra - because it is not caused by any kind of shortcut, but because the inputs required for those moves are similar so an extra df or db causes another move. The solution for Bison is to change either the input needed for his ultra or his teleport so they are not so similar.

Yes SF4 does indeed have a greater amount of input leniency than both previous SF titles and other fighting games, but many people who complain about shortcuts causing their problems don't realize that their issue has nothing to do with "shortcuts".

ragingdemon123

10-01-2009, 01:24 AM

OFF WITH ITS HEAD (shortcuts)

ahkeentayway

10-01-2009, 01:51 AM

Evo

10-01-2009, 01:54 AM

I personally just hope they get rid of the annoying timing between linking normals in this game, the current method is not organic or pleasent at all.

nobusiness

10-01-2009, 01:57 AM

Bison's problem is that of overlapping/similar move-sets

You actually can't execute his, chun's, or blanka's super/ultra while holding down, ever (meaning hold db -> d -> df -> d -> db -> d -> df + kick/punch). I'm with you on overlapping movesets on the ultra, but there's no good reason for the super.

EDIT: add honda to that list. the common theme between them is that they all have unique attacks, where rog has none.

that has to be a fucking bug.

Milligano

10-01-2009, 02:00 AM

Sanchez

10-01-2009, 02:00 AM

Has NO ONE seen my video!? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si5H9ep3fIs&feature=channel_page)

Mienaikage

10-01-2009, 02:12 AM

There's a couple reasons I like this shortcut and that's the ability to perform SRK moves from a crouched position rather than having to stand up first. Also it allows you to buffer an ultra while you appear to just be crouching.

mangojoe

10-01-2009, 02:20 AM

Yep there needs to be an option for this in the button config menu or something.

this

chicko1983

10-01-2009, 02:30 AM

No.

If Bison players can't get their execution on point they should give his teleport a different command, QCF/QCB?

What you're suggesting will open up a door you don't know how to close.

Well, enlighten me why its a can of worms? I want to know 'cause I need to know how inputs work exactly to become a better player.

To summarise a bit more clearly what I would like (and think would make most players happy):

A legitimate input shortcut of :df:, :df: working instead of the shoryuken motion. This shortcut can be turned on or off.

Characters able to use charge :db:, :df:, :db:, :df: instead of charge :l:, :r:, :l:, :r: for Ultras/Supers.

If :df:, :df: is a legitimate shortcut and not input "leniency" then the :db: between the first and second :df: will cause the shortcut to not work.

What I am talking about makes the game easier for more people which is exactly what Capcom should be aiming for: Get more people playing with a wider variety of characters being used.

fegis

10-01-2009, 02:32 AM

aye remove this from the game. I totally agree.

nobusiness

10-01-2009, 02:36 AM

Rog is the only charge character who can execute an ultra/super while holding up or down. For all the others (blanka/honda/bison/chun-li), if you hold up or down, nothing will come out but a normal. If you start it from the up/down position but don't hold down, you will get your ultra/super.

The common factor between the four of them is that they all have unique attacks, even if those unique attacks aren't used, they somehow still prevent the ultra or super from coming out.

Someone tell me that's not a bug, it's not an execution issue, it's not an overlapping move issue.

Iduno

10-01-2009, 02:50 AM

this should be an option, removing them would make playing on gamepads worse than it already is imo, since they don't have the precision of a stick.

Not really, I had a friend round playing BB for the first time yesterday as his first fighting game and he was getting out all the normal special motions regularly within around 30mins in training mode on a pad, supers were a bit more troublesome but I don't believe SFIV had shortcuts for the supers anyway.

No-one should need shortcuts period, they only teach laziness and screw with other stuff.

Drexion

10-01-2009, 03:05 AM

Nobusiness that's some interesting info, might be better for the SF4 forum though, more people with the PC version of the game there who can do extensive tests on it.

I want to know 'cause I need to know how inputs work exactly to become a better player. It's pretty simple to explain. In SF4 any direction in the same hemisphere will qualify as a substitute for that direction.

For example, a sonic boom is not just Back, Forward, Punch. It's ANY back, ANY forward, Punch. So you can charge it with Back, Down Back, Up Back, and it still works.

Here is another example: A DP is not just F,D,DF. It's ANY forward, ANY down, ANY forward. So you can do a DP in a VAST number of ways, some of which are (1)F,D,DF, (2) F,D,F (3) F,DB,DF (4) DF,D,DF (5) DF,D,F (6) UF,D,F etc etc etc.

So basically *usually*:-
if a move says D, you can use DB, D or DF.
if a move says B, you can use DB, B or UB.
if a move says U, you can use UB, U or UF.
if a move says F, you can use UF, F or DF.

That is what input leniency is, any direction in the same hemisphere will qualify for that direction. This is not a "shortcut" system, as SF4 does not have any kind of built in shortcuts, regardless of what the guides say or what some of the clueless in this thread keep posting.

With moves that require diagonals it varies, sometimes you have to hit the diagonal (like an Hadouken) or sometimes you can sub any direction in the same hemisphere (like a shoryuken). It may be related to the number of successive moves in the hemisphere required (for example Hadouken requires 2 successive moves in the forward hemisphere, whereas a DP only requires one at a time in the forward hemisphere)

Note: I believe the input leniency for supers and ultras is a bit stricter, and the level of leniency *may* differ dependent on the character or the super/ultra being executed.

DHEvil

10-01-2009, 03:09 AM

I rated this thread five stars.

Because I like it.

Dios <-X->

10-01-2009, 03:19 AM

I agree with the OP. Take out shortcuts please.

Kich

10-01-2009, 03:38 AM

You can't take out shortcuts, see page 3, they're not real. The only solution would be to maybe tone down the input leniency in the game, but getting rid of that leniency all together would result in a metric pain in the ass the likes of which you've no idea.

Could you imagine actually having to perfectly perform :r::d::df::p: in order to perform a shoryuken? I mean literally, those 3 inputs and nothing else? Capcom wouldn't do that at this point in development, it'd be going back so far it'd only be destructive to the playerbase.

Most people I know go from forward to down to forward in a roll of their thumb or stick in order to do a shoryuken, if you removed input leniency, that would either result in a hadouken or nothing. You don't actually want that.

Toning it down to be like it was in 3S is, as some have mentioned, probably far more realistic. It's a little ridiculous that you can't c.mk xx fp.fb if you were previously walking forward, if they just tighten it up a bit people won't be seeing things like ^ that happen.

megaultrasuper

10-01-2009, 03:44 AM

100% agreed on going back to at least CVS2 or 3S style inputs. I would personally prefer ST.

Adding length to a thread that should be the longest in this forum.

TheWeakOne

10-01-2009, 04:17 AM

For example, a sonic boom is not just Back, Forward, Punch. It's ANY back, ANY forward, Punch. So you can charge it with Back, Down Back, Up Back, and it still works.

For Guile's Sonic Boom, you can't use any forward. Otherwise, you'd be able to keep a Down charge while sonic booming which you can't. You have to lose the down charge.

It's the same for Chun-Li's, Blanka's, Bison's and Honda's :l::r::l::r: super/ultra. They have to let go of the down charge to do their super/ultra. For some reason, Balrog is the exception.

Also, when the game registers an ultra and a special move from the same input, the ultra will come out if it can and the special move if it can't. If you did an Ultra and you got a special move instead, most likely, the input was not correct.

Dice01

10-01-2009, 05:15 AM

1000% agreed, please take away the mashing factor, let this version be short cut free please, and yes I to gave this thread 5 stars out of 5

AaronS

10-01-2009, 05:29 AM

If you want to leave it in as an option for d-pad or casuals thats fine as well. Just have the option to disable the shortcut motion in the controller options, it is only being released as a console game so heres to hoping.:cool:

That would be the best, give us the option in the game!
I do motions the old way, but I know at least 1 friend of mine learned starting in sf4, and he uses the shortcuts, so I'm sure a lot of people would have to relearn parts of the game if they took the shortcuts out totally.

AshuraSenku

10-01-2009, 05:30 AM

I have to co-sign this thread.

The shortcuts are making me form bad habits, because all I have to do to link a Dragon punch for Ryu is LP, LP, :df: :db: :df: HP. Then when I go back and play 3S or ST I cant pull it out.

So I agree, remove these shortcuts.

AaronS

10-01-2009, 05:35 AM

1000% agreed, please take away the mashing factor, let this version be short cut free please, and yes I to gave this thread 5 stars out of 5

If you want the mash factor to be gone you should be way more worried about auto-reversals than these little shortcuts.

Esura

10-01-2009, 05:38 AM

Like Kich said...they arent shortcuts.

They said this like 5 times.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 06:09 AM

I posted the exact inputs for Cammy's moves in some other thread a while back.
I may as well repost here with the rest added:

Lenient inputs are indicated by brackets. Any direction alongside these are accepted, so (:r:) means :r: or :uf: or :df:

DP : (:r:)(:d:)(:r:) -- (:df::df: doesn't work, but :df::df::df: does...)
QCF : :d::df::r:
HCB : (:r:)(:d:):l: -- (Standard)
HCB : :r:(:d:):l: -- (Fei Long's Tenshin - can't start it with :df: like other HCB moves)
"TK" : :db:(:d:)(:r:):uf:
360 : :r::d::l:(:u:) -- (or any variant of the same motion, :u: is always lenient)
720 : :r::d::l:(:u:):r::d::l: -- (as above, and yes it's really a 540 now)
QCFx2 : :d:(:r:):d::r:

Charges:
H : (:l:)... :r:
V : (:d:)... (:u:)
S.H : (:l:)... (:r:)(:l:):r: -- (Standard)
S.H : (:l:)... (:r:)(:l:)(:r:) -- (Balrog's version)
S.V : :db:... (:r:):db:(:u:)

Input priority goes something like:
- Taunt
- Focus
- Throw
- Ultra
- Super
- V Charge
- H Charge
- 360
- HCB (Tenshin)
- "TK"
- HCB
- DP
- QCB
- QCF
- PPP / KKK

Charge moves and Fei Long's flame kick (Edit: all reverse DPs) are a bit weird. They take priority over other moves when they're the last thing inputted, but if something else is inputted immediately afterwards then that takes priority instead (Edit: If done at exactly the same time due to overlapping inputs then the one with higher priority comes out, which is character dependent). There might be a some other character specific cases but I'm not aware of them.

Anyway... if you ever input a move listed above and one below it comes out, it's because you screwed up and that's the end of it.

For example, Bison's Ultra takes priority over his teleport. If you get teleport instead of ultra then it's because you messed up the input, probably either by not ending with directly forwards or by not charging long enough.

As for getting a super move when going for DP, that can be avoided by making absolutely sure that you end the motion at :df:. I don't care what you think you're inputting; if you get a super then you're pressing :r: at the end whether you realise it or not. The same thing applies in reverse if you're getting a DP when you want a Super.
:d::df::d::df: : DP comes out
:d::df::d::r: : Super comes out

Devil-Trigger

10-01-2009, 06:13 AM

Yes please

this game too many times, cant tell the difference between srk motion and 2x qc

Rioting Soul

10-01-2009, 06:13 AM

Wouldn't this also ruin things like Dhalsim's TK Air Teleport?

Sprint

10-01-2009, 06:21 AM

Yes please

this game too many times, cant tell the difference between srk motion and 2x qc

Do you realise how stupid you just made yourself seem by saying that right after a post that specifies the exact difference between them on the very last line?

Kich

10-01-2009, 06:33 AM

Wouldn't this also ruin things like Dhalsim's TK Air Teleport?

Yep. You wouldn't be able to TK Cannon Strike with Cammy or IAT with Dhalsim.

Devil-Trigger

10-01-2009, 06:58 AM

Do you realise how stupid you just made yourself seem by saying that right after a post that specifies the exact difference between them on the very last line?

so im stupid for doing the motion that the book tells me to do and have been doing for years...

DanzBorin

10-01-2009, 07:00 AM

Could you imagine actually having to perfectly perform :r::d::df::p: in order to perform a shoryuken? I mean literally, those 3 inputs and nothing else? Capcom wouldn't do that at this point in development, it'd be going back so far it'd only be destructive to the playerbase.
yes... i can imagine that... i've been doing it in street fighter games for almost 20 years...

ha-dou-ken

10-01-2009, 07:03 AM

yes... i can imagine that... i've been doing it in street fighter games for almost 20 years...

that's what I was thinking :rofl:

Esura

10-01-2009, 07:04 AM

so im stupid for doing the motion that the book tells me to do and have been doing for years...

No, he said you are stupid for making a post bitching RIGHT after he made a post specifying the exact difference between them.

rycexboi

10-01-2009, 07:10 AM

Well said Sprint. Those inputs could have been easily figured, if people would use the input display in training mode.

chicko1983

10-01-2009, 07:13 AM

Wouldn't this also ruin things like Dhalsim's TK Air Teleport?

before I get confused anymore, what exactly are you saying would ruin Dhalsim's TK Air Teleport?

If you had a short cut (not leniency but an actual shortcut) and were able to turn the shortcut on or off couldnt you just use the short cut for the characters it suited best.

whitey9

10-01-2009, 08:42 AM

You can't make the case that people should have to do the precise movements required to pull off specials while simultaneously bitching that the shortcuts cause you to botch your specials.

Input better.

Nice1

10-01-2009, 08:42 AM

i hope they see this thread asap. i hate when i dp fadc into ex dp or when i walk forward and do a c.mk into fb and i get c.mk into dp instead

Demon Jim

10-01-2009, 08:47 AM

REMOVE THE SHORTCUTS!!!! SRK members ASSEMBLLLEEE!!!! I'm amazed as to how almost 99% of people on here are banding together and saying no.

-DJ-

epsilon_

10-01-2009, 08:49 AM

the "window" for shortcut's needs to be lessed, as well as the reversal window. other games have shortcuts (3s for example) but just mashing from down to downforward doesnt get you dp as easily, and the reversal window keeps it from being practical just to mash it.

also...MORE BLOCKSTUN PLEASE.

moves like rufus c.mk do NOT need to be punishable with a sweep on block, it's stupid.

and for the record, shrortcuts ARE real.

zangief spd for example can be activated with the same motion for a hooligan combination (ending at up forward/ up back) in NO other game can you do this, you have to go to up.

Yellowcorn

10-01-2009, 08:54 AM

i hope they see this thread asap. i hate when i dp fadc into ex dp or when i walk forward and do a c.mk into fb and i get c.mk into dp instead

I think a lot of people are confused with the "shortcuts", leniency, and just being stupid.

These two examples are NOT a result of "shortcuts", but sloppy movements... you just need to hcf your fireballs, like in other fighting games... sure, the giant window for inputs hurts this, but you should have been hcf'ing after c.forward in most other games anyway. There are a lot of threads about this.

The "shortcuts" would result in a super in place of a dp, not the other way around.

Anyway, while I don't agree with most of the specific complaints in here, I agree with the sentiment that this game would be better without the "shortcuts" and a smaller move window.

TonyTheTiger

10-01-2009, 09:34 AM

For example, Bison's Ultra takes priority over his teleport. If you get teleport instead of ultra then it's because you messed up the input, probably either by not ending with directly forwards or by not charging long enough.

That's only half true. A teleport can be done with :l: :d: :db: :3k:. The :db: :db: shortcut works for this move. But the shortcut takes too much priority. So :db:...:r: :db: :r: :3k: is interpreted by the game as :db: :db: :3k:. So while screwing up and hitting :df: twice instead of :r: could cause the :r: :d: :df: teleport to come out, that's not the most common problem. The reason the shortcut causes issues is because most people build charge with Bison via :db: in the first place. That means they're already halfway done with the shortcut when they start the move. Therefore, if the player isn't spot on with the second :l: they get a teleport.

ha-dou-ken

10-01-2009, 09:38 AM

just shorten the input window.period.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 10:08 AM

That's only half true. A teleport can be done with :l: :d: :db: :3k:. The :db: :db: shortcut works for this move. But the shortcut takes too much priority. So :db:...:r: :db: :r: :3k: is interpreted by the game as :db: :db: :3k:. So while screwing up and hitting :df: twice instead of :r: could cause the :r: :d: :df: teleport to come out, that's not the most common problem. The reason the shortcut causes issues is because most people build charge with Bison via :db: in the first place. That means they're already halfway done with the shortcut when they start the move. Therefore, if the player isn't spot on with the second :l: they get a teleport.

No. You will only EVER get the teleport if you failed the ultra input.

Hell, even :db:... :df::d::db::df::r::uf::3k: still comes out as Ultra no matter how fast you input it despite being inclusive of both teleport motions and headstomp.

If you're getting teleport instead of ultra, a changed or more strict teleport input won't do anything to help. You'll just start getting EX scissors or slide instead, which is even worse.

If you input an ultra correctly, it will come out. It takes priority over every other directional input in the game. If you get something else then it is because you did not input the ultra at all.

Edit: Meh... forget what used to be here, I thought the charged move property mentioned in my earlier post might affect ultras but having just tested it it turns out it doesn't.

Gutter Trash

10-01-2009, 10:09 AM

Honda and Bison approve this thread

TonyTheTiger

10-01-2009, 10:35 AM

snip.

We could go back and forth with this all day. But the point is that there's at least something wrong, whatever that may be. People never had these problems with Bison in past games. And it's not a new thing for the SFIV scene, either. This has been going on since day 1 with the game. Hell, even David Sirlin was confused when he was getting random teleports. He didn't know why but he mentioned it as an oddity in one of his reviews. So even if it isn't a legitimate shortcut, there's something going on with input priority that's screwing around with otherwise intuitive motions.

poopclown

10-01-2009, 10:53 AM

We could go back and forth with this all day. But the point is that there's at least something wrong, whatever that may be. People never had these problems with Bison in past games. And it's not a new thing for the SFIV scene, either. This has been going on since day 1 with the game. Hell, even David Sirlin was confused when he was getting random teleports. He didn't know why but he mentioned it as an oddity in one of his reviews. So even if it isn't a legitimate shortcut, there's something going on with input priority that's screwing around with otherwise intuitive motions.

there was never an issue in past games because crappy execution just led to random normals... getting EX shoryu instead of ultra is obnoxious as hell and makes people who would rather blame it on the game than their fingers angry.

and sirlin is likely just used to the quicker charge time in super turbo.

Dandy J

10-01-2009, 10:57 AM

If you're getting teleport instead of ultra, a changed or more strict teleport input won't do anything to help.
then why do people with years of sf experience, including high-level japanese players, who never had problems doing this super motion in any other sf game, get teleport instead of ultra?

Sprint

10-01-2009, 10:59 AM

:db:... :df::db::df::k: worked in ST but doesn't any more. You must end with :r: now (unless you're Balrog... bah).

Try it the old way out of habit and... bam, teleport.

fauxtrot

10-01-2009, 11:01 AM

Select your character
Select your colour
Select your personal action
Select your style (normal/beginner)

Just saying.

QFT. SFIV is making me sooooooo sloppy...

Sprint

10-01-2009, 11:05 AM

Heh... I just noticed the irony in that failing bison's ultra is actually caused by the move not being lenient enough :wgrin:

nobusiness

10-01-2009, 11:07 AM

:db:... :df::db::df::k: worked in ST but doesn't any more. You must end with :r: now (unless you're Balrog... bah).

Try it the old way out of habit and... bam, teleport.

can't even do it with :ub:...:uf::ub::uf::k: not that you'd ever really want to do that. It's really due to Bison's ultra being strict. You can't do his supers that way either, and it's not like there's an overlapping move there.

Dannkk

10-01-2009, 11:07 AM

Most of the problems everyone has with shortcuts can be fixed with better execution. The bigger problem is the length of time the game buffers inputs. Like, Ryu, has a lot of trouble doing c.lk, c.lp, srk with super meter. Lots of times that super wants to come out. Use the shortcut, and never press forward and it won't. Dictators ultra/teleport is the same thing. Work on execution and it should happen a lot less. TP comes out because you actually hit the wrong direction. In a way Bison players are even asking the game to be MORE lenient by letting ultra come out when they were hitting DFs and DBs.

The buffer, though, can't be overcome with better execution. If you walk forward, you have to go to neutral or down and wait 35ms before you can input a qcf move, or you WILL ALWAYS get a dp move. If they only take out the shorcuts, but leave this buffer alone, people will have a lot of the same problems.

Kurdminator

10-01-2009, 11:08 AM

This Dictator user will sighn every pertition thats against shortcuts.

ShinGouki00

10-01-2009, 11:17 AM

stop crying and learn to have some damn execution you fucking scrubs

what FMJaguar said is completely true.

Also, instead of whining for everything to go your way, why not you know... innovate and learn how to get around things like this. JUST LIKE SANCHEZ DID.

jesus besides the fact that sfiv is not that good it also brought all these fucking people that think they know sf and don't even have the fucking execution to do their shit.

now that I really think about the whole issue, I was very against the whole input shortcuts/auto correct thing, but its really not that bad. If you're fucking up your moves combos etc your execution is lacking, end of story.

thanks fmj and sanchez for bringing up some things that made me see the light lol
I'd rep if i could...

poopclown

10-01-2009, 11:18 AM

then why do people with years of sf experience, including high-level japanese players, who never had problems doing this super motion in any other sf game, get teleport instead of ultra?

because they screwed up the execution. wrong move = wrong inputs, plain and simple. I used to get random seismos in the middle of fierce feint combos with viper until I decided to go into training mode and look at what I was doing vs. what I thought I was doing.

having tons of experience or being a high level player doesn't make you infallible, either. it just means you mess up .5% of the time. and that one time is when everybody watching goes "WTF SHORTCUTS BULLSHIT"

vertoxz

10-01-2009, 11:25 AM

Have shortcuts be an option:

Shortcut inputs [OFF] ON

Carbs2k

10-01-2009, 11:28 AM

Have shortcuts be an option:

Shortcut inputs [OFF] ON

agreed...

Fp.srk FADC....... EX.srk........ fail

Densuo

10-01-2009, 11:31 AM

They should make it an option you can turn on or off. Although personally, I say remove this shortcut garbage. I cant tell you how many times I've missed El Fuerte's Ultra with an EX Guacamole which lets my opponent kill me for free

joe99

10-01-2009, 11:38 AM

Select your character
Select your colour
Select your personal action
Select your style (normal/beginner)

Just saying.

I agree, then you can select the option ingame. hope they put this option in.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 11:42 AM

agreed...

Fp.srk FADC....... EX.srk........ fail

They should make it an option you can turn on or off. Although personally, I say remove this shortcut garbage. I cant tell you how many times I've missed El Fuerte's Ultra with an EX Guacamole which lets my opponent kill me for free

Nothing to do with "shortcuts". The ultra motion overlaps with the DP motion. Press :3p: or :3k: or whatever before completing the ultra motion and EX DP will come out with or without them.

You should instead be asking for the ultra motion to be changed to :d::df::d::df: to compensate for your lack of dexterity. Then you can complain about accidentally doing that all the time instead.

highlulu

10-01-2009, 11:48 AM

Yellowcorn

10-01-2009, 11:59 AM

so do people in this thread realize there aren't "shortcuts" in sf4?

there is a input window large enough to drive a truck through, combined with input leniency (ie a :df: is interpreted as a :f: and a :d:).

:df: :df: does not = a srk. the game still needs that third input so that with input leniency it can count a forward, a down and then a forward.

Semantics?

You can do a SRK without hitting froward exclusively = "shortcut"...

:df::d::df: = srk
:d::df::d::df::r: = super with only 1 "exclusive" forward

vertoxz

10-01-2009, 12:03 PM

so do people in this thread realize there aren't "shortcuts" in sf4?

there is a input window large enough to drive a truck through, combined with input leniency (ie a :df: is interpreted as a :f: and a :d:).

:df: :df: does not = a srk. the game still needs that third input so that with input leniency it can count a forward, a down and then a forward.

Wtf are you talking about?
If you're saying that the third input would have to be a punch than, yeah sure it needs 3 inputs, but doing :df:, :d:, :df: or :df: ,:df: is just as much of an srk as :r:, :d:, :df: :lp:.

Go in training mode turn on input display, you can do either of those and get an srk, without even having to press forward once.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 12:08 PM

Blunt mode initiated:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8340/cannonpoke.gif
:df::df: DOES NOT WORK
THIS APPLIES TO ALL DPS

Anyone who thinks otherwise can piss off for being an unhelpful scrub posting misleading information. It's people like that that need a freaking GIF to shut them up.

Blunt mode over.

Sorry for the bluntness, but people spreading this false nonsense gets annoying.

highlulu

10-01-2009, 12:11 PM

crimsonson

10-01-2009, 12:11 PM

Don't know what you'e talking about, man. I use a PS2 pad on PC, and I can get SRK's, Hadoukens, and SNK-style supers out no problem. Fortunately I should be getting a Happ stick next week to take my game to the next level.

Did you not just contradict yourself? If the controller does not affect it how can your Happ stick take you to the next level?

For me - I want the shortcuts taken down a notch. .

FMJaguar

10-01-2009, 12:19 PM

There are too many posts now about the technical issues like the word 'shortcut' and other off topic things, i'm pretty sure most people just want to remove of mash style DPs, bisons ultra to not overlap his super, and in general to get the move they were trying to execute.

So i'm creating a new thread, but i'm not sure what it should be called: "Fix the inputs"? "Fix the special and super moves?" what do you think? or rather, instead of discussing how to change it, lets move towards what needs changed.

vertoxz

10-01-2009, 12:42 PM

snip

So how is :df:, :d:, :df: not a shortcut? just cause you have to press 3 directions? People call :df:, :d:, :df: a shortcut because it's easier input-wise, for example doing cr. hp xx srk you would just hold df than press hp and then press d, and df again, instead of holding or d or db than pressing hp then doing f, d, df. People call it shortcut cause it's just easier not because it's less inputs.
df, d, df also makes it a lot easier to punish whiffed tatsus.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 12:44 PM

I'd lean towards something like "Input adjustments"

This nonsense will probably end up starting again regardless though, heh.

People like to complain about the game not doing what they inputted, but never bother to find out exactly what the cause is. Sometimes it's genuinely down to the game being too lenient or strict on certain things, sometimes they're just sucking and want to blame it on something.

Half of the posts in this thread are by people who want some sort of tweak to the input system, but they don't know exactly what's causing their problem and end up blaming it on the wrong thing entirely :rolleyes:

highlulu

10-01-2009, 12:46 PM

So how is :df:, :d:, :df: not a shortcut? just cause you have to press 3 directions? People call :df:, :d:, :df: a shortcut because it's easier input-wise, for example doing cr. hp xx srk you would just hold df than press hp and then press d, and df again, instead of holding or d or db than pressing hp then doing f, d, df. People call it shortcut cause it's just easier not because it's less inputs.
df, d, df also makes it a lot easier to punish whiffed tatsus.

well, it is a semantics argument. a "shortcut" implies that less inputs are needed, i'm just trying to say that the same number of inputs are needed the system is just extremly lenient on the way it interprets the inputs you give it.

so i guess what i'm trying to say is i'll concede the overall point that i think either the large input windows or the leniency needs to be adjusted (personally i want the windows decreased opposed to the leniency removed, cause i like charge characters being able to charge both types at the same time).

FMJaguar

10-01-2009, 12:50 PM

Unless you are saying that the cause makes it impossible to fix (which is wrong), or will certainly cause unintended side effects (which it will not), then the cause is not important to the overall point of fixing the issues. I'm sure if Capcom decided to fix the issue and couldn't figure it out we could talk about the technical details of how to fix it, but there's no point in talking about it now.

isurus

10-01-2009, 01:05 PM

i agree. removing the shortcuts would be a blessing.

also, punish those that mash shit out.

highlulu

10-01-2009, 01:06 PM

i agree. removing the shortcuts would be a blessing.

also, punish those that mash shit out.

a system like BB's where if you mash throw tech it actually refuses to give you the tech even though one of your million mashed inputs landed in the tech window would be very hot. apply that to DP's so someone has to *GASP* time their reversals!

Kich

10-01-2009, 01:20 PM

Wtf are you talking about?
If you're saying that the third input would have to be a punch than, yeah sure it needs 3 inputs, but doing :df:, :d:, :df: or :df: ,:df: is just as much of an srk as :r:, :d:, :df: :lp:.

Go in training mode turn on input display, you can do either of those and get an srk, without even having to press forward once.

I dare you to try :df::df::p: with inputs on. I double dare you. I dare you to try it until it works, in fact, get a video of someone actually performing specifically a :df::df::p: with no other inputs and I will give you a damn gold star, I'll give you two why not.

It will blow my -mind- if you could legitimately pull it off, because I spent about 20 minutes with input display on landing that ^ exact set of inputs over and over and over again and not a single, not one, shoryuken ever resulted from just a :df::df::p:. Not one.

Here's part of my attempts at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCjBD3xFsDQ

And no, most of you don't understand what legit removing input leniency -does-. You -require- that in order to do most of your moves. Do you understand just how painful shoryukening when you want to would be if you had to perfectly input forward, down, and down-forward (mind you at this point ending in forward would result in a hadouken and not a shoryuken because you weren't perfectly precise)?

Input leniency IS a good thing, to the extent that SF4 did it though, maybe not. You should be asking to tone it back to something like SF3's input leniency, not completely removing it.

TonyTheTiger

10-01-2009, 01:21 PM

Most of the problems everyone has with shortcuts can be fixed with better execution.

That's pretty obvious. Any priority issue or leniency issue or shortcut issue would be no problem at all if I had 100% execution. Then I could do every move exactly as it's written in the manual every time. But leniency was created for Street Fighter (and FGs in general) specifically because we're human and the devs very rationally made allowances for that. And in a series this old and seasoned it's pretty dumb to start changing the rules on people who now have to adapt to a largely arbitrary execution requirement laid upon Bison but not other characters.

In case people haven't noticed, the complaints are narrowly tailored to very specific situations where certain moves don't work the way they probably should. This isn't "I can't do the move so the game sucks" and to paint it as such (which some people have been doing) is to miss the point entirely.

there was never an issue in past games because crappy execution just led to random normals... getting EX shoryu instead of ultra is obnoxious as hell and makes people who would rather blame it on the game than their fingers angry.

and sirlin is likely just used to the quicker charge time in super turbo.

See? And, for the record, if execution has to be super strict then I'd rather get a random kick instead of a teleport. At least a kick is an attack rather than the purple "hit me now" magic act. Fact is my execution will never be top notch. I'll always miss this or miss that. I made peace with that a long time ago and don't ask the game to hold my hand. But I do ask that it doesn't actively work against me.

Super Sonic

10-01-2009, 01:24 PM

It's console.

Make the option to turn it on and off please!

This!

citiofbrass

10-01-2009, 01:34 PM

I dont give a fuck option or not... Dont make it manditory got damnit!!!!!!!!!

DELETE ALL TEH BITCHING AND COMPLAINTS ABOUT MATCH UPS, TOP TEIRS, NERFS AND BUFFS AND STICKY THIS SHIT

Danmartigan

10-01-2009, 01:44 PM

All they really need to do is reduce the time of the input window for specials and supers, but keep the larger input window for ultras. Because 3 buttons + a chain of directional inputs (ultras) take longer to input. :coffee:

Yellowcorn

10-01-2009, 01:44 PM

I dare you to try :df::df::p: with inputs on. I double dare you. I dare you to try it until it works, in fact, get a video of someone actually performing specifically a :df::df::p: with no other inputs and I will give you a damn gold star, I'll give you two why not.

You're swimming upstream, nobody is suggesting that :df::df: works, they mean :df::d::df:

Yes, "shortcuts" is a bad way to describe it (although the super one is a shortcut, since less inputs are required...) If you agree with the IDEA that SRK's are too easy to do, don't post this semantic BS that nobody is disagreeing with anyway.

The ONLY reason this system bothers me is when I do :d::df::d::df:, let go of the stick, and :r: is inputted in the return to neutral, causing a super despite there being no first :r:.

Go do Viper's hard trial #5 20x, and tell me you don't get a super by accident once. That's the problem. Arguing with the people in this thread about something you probably agree with is not helping.

Kich

10-01-2009, 01:49 PM

Arguing with the people in this thread about something you probably agree with is not helping.

*Clap* Glad you read the whole post. Gold star!

Nice1

10-01-2009, 02:20 PM

I think a lot of people are confused with the "shortcuts", leniency, and just being stupid.

These two examples are NOT a result of "shortcuts", but sloppy movements... you just need to hcf your fireballs, like in other fighting games... sure, the giant window for inputs hurts this, but you should have been hcf'ing after c.forward in most other games anyway. There are a lot of threads about this.

The "shortcuts" would result in a super in place of a dp, not the other way around.

Anyway, while I don't agree with most of the specific complaints in here, I agree with the sentiment that this game would be better without the "shortcuts" and a smaller move window.

i know what shortcuts are sir. i've seen the vid of unintentional srk's from retarded movements and the shortcut to a dp. it has nothin to do with my motion cuz i went back and tried the same thing on 3S which is c.mk into fb and no random srk's on that. with all these retarted motions added for moves people do the wrong move when they intended to do something else. in general all im saying is get rid of these dumb motions that make moves com out easier cuz its interferring with the moves we intend to do

ahkeentayway

10-01-2009, 02:29 PM

It's surprising really, a lot of you that are suggesting we remove these lenient inputs do realize it would cripple Dhalsim (IAT), Cammy (TK motion), All Charge characters.

You guys aren't even taking time to understand the system before knocking it. I suggest you read Sprints post on page 5 ... I have quoted it below, it is perhaps the only resource you would need regarding this issue. It's glad to see another player who actually understands how the system works instead of coming up with ridiculous theories.

Seriously, just work on your execution, I don't get these problems (I main Chun and Honda but I play Shotos for fun and I don't accidentally super)

I posted the exact inputs for Cammy's moves in some other thread a while back.
I may as well repost here with the rest added:

Lenient inputs are indicated by brackets. Any direction alongside these are accepted, so (:r:) means :r: or :uf: or :df:

DP : (:r:)(:d:)(:r:) (:df::df: doesn't work, but :df::df::df: does...)
QCF : :d::df::r:
HCB : (:r:)(:d:):l:
"TK" : :db:(:d:)(:r:):uf:
360 : :r::d::l:(:u:) (or any variant of the same motion, :u: is always lenient)
720 : :r::d::l:(:u:):r::d::l: (as above, and yes it's really a 540 now)
QCFx2 : :d:(:r:):d::r:

Charges:
H : (:l:)... :r:
V : (:d:)... (:u:)
S.H : (:l:)... (:r:)(:l:):r:
S.H : (:l:)... (:r:)(:l:)(:r:) (Balrog's version)
S.V : :db:... (:r:):db:(:u:)

Input priority goes something like:
- Taunt
- Focus
- Throw
- Ultra
- Super
- V Charge
- H Charge
- "TK"
- HCB
- DP
- QCB
- QCF
- PPP / KKK

Charge moves and Fei Long's flame kick (Edit: all reverse DPs) are a bit weird. They take priority over other moves when they're the last thing inputted, but if something else is inputted immediately afterwards then that takes priority instead (Edit: If done at exactly the same time due to overlapping inputs then the one with higher priority comes out, which is character dependent). There might be a some other character specific cases but I'm not aware of them.

Anyway... if you ever input a move listed above and one below it comes out, it's because you screwed up and that's the end of it.

For example, Bison's Ultra takes priority over his teleport. If you get teleport instead of ultra then it's because you messed up the input, probably either by not ending with directly forwards or by not charging long enough.

As for getting a super move when going for DP, that can be avoided by making absolutely sure that you end the motion at :df:. I don't care what you think you're inputting; if you get a super then you're pressing :r: at the end whether you realise it or not. The same thing applies in reverse if you're getting a DP when you want a Super.
:d::df::d::df: : DP comes out
:d::df::d::r: : Super comes out

Jon Moxon

10-01-2009, 02:36 PM

I don't want to take the shortcuts out because it would take some options away from Dictator. Teleport to head stomp, teleport to ultra, teleport to mpx2 to ultra, teleport to empty devil's reverse to throw, teleport to ex psycho crusher.

TonyTheTiger

10-01-2009, 02:46 PM

I'll make it real simple. I don't care how it's done. All I ask is that Capcom does something that puts Bison in a position where I can bust out his Knee Press Nightmare (in this case the Ultra version of it) with at least as much precision as I can in Super Turbo, any of the Alpha games, et. al. I don't want to make it seem like I get a teleport all the time here in SFIV (I have adapted well enough) but I am measurably more likely to miss the move here than in past games.

Jubei Kibagami

10-01-2009, 02:46 PM

I dont give a fuck option or not... Dont make it manditory got damnit!!!!!!!!!

DELETE ALL TEH BITCHING AND COMPLAINTS ABOUT MATCH UPS, TOP TEIRS, NERFS AND BUFFS AND STICKY THIS SHIT

This and only this. Why should the rest of us be given an even harder time for not having 100% execution. Give us the option to turn the damn thing off.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 02:59 PM

You're swimming upstream, nobody is suggesting that :df::df: works, they mean :df::d::df:

Yes, "shortcuts" is a bad way to describe it (although the super one is a shortcut, since less inputs are required...) If you agree with the IDEA that SRK's are too easy to do, don't post this semantic BS that nobody is disagreeing with anyway.

The ONLY reason this system bothers me is when I do :d::df::d::df:, let go of the stick, and :r: is inputted in the return to neutral, causing a super despite there being no first :r:.

Go do Viper's hard trial #5 20x, and tell me you don't get a super by accident once. That's the problem. Arguing with the people in this thread about something you probably agree with is not helping.

It's more than just semantics. Even if you use :df::df: when meaning :df::d::df: you're just confusing people, and implying that :df::r::df: works, when it doesn't, though :r::df::r: does. There are plenty of people who think that :df::df: alone will give you a SRK because it's been said like that so damn much.

Also it's easy to avoid accidental supers on a stick. Just keep holding :df: until after you've hit the button.
Can't say the same for pad users though. That crap's imprecise as hell.

I don't have a problem with DP inputs aside from them accepting :db: and :uf:, which screws with Cammy's TK Cannon Strike patterns if you accidentally hit kick while you're on the ground. There's no reason for anyone to intentionally want to use either of those directions in their DP input so it's pretty pointless.

Not too bothered about :df::d::df: / :r::df::r:. They can be very useful at times, especially the former.

On the other hand, the super motion could probably do with changing to a ST style :d:(:df:?):r::d::df:, which would eliminate the EX DP problem some people are having. However, in that case it'd definitely be preferable to keep lenient DP so you can perform it from a downward position without having to go via neutral to avoid an accidental super (:db::d::df::r::d::df::p:..."oh bugger")

Allowing all horizontal charge Supers to end in :df: instead of just Balrog's would be nice too.

DanzBorin

10-01-2009, 02:59 PM

so i guess what i'm trying to say is i'll concede the overall point that i think either the large input windows or the leniency needs to be adjusted (personally i want the windows decreased opposed to the leniency removed, cause i like charge characters being able to charge both types at the same time).
People need to think about this...

Charge characters have been able to charge down back since the first charge characters existed (heck, back in the day you could do DB to DF to get a sonic boom (made square gates very good)... getting accidental SRKs due to whatever you want to call it is new to SFIV...

so whatever you want to call it, some people (not you highlulu, just using your post as an example of charge character) should get off their high horse about being precise... this problem hasn't existed like this until SFIV...

ahkeentayway

10-01-2009, 03:03 PM

This and only this. Why should the rest of us be given an even harder time for not having 100% execution. Give us the option to turn the damn thing off.

Unless you play Ryu and Shoto inc.

You probably won't want to turn off this input leniency.

I know characters who can't do without it.

Chun
Honda
Balrog
Guile
Vega
Bison (Yes, even Bison)
Cammy
Dhalsim
Blanka
Gen (He has some charge moves right?)

I don't use the whole cast, but these are characters I'm sure rely on the leniency for basic setups.

s0leja

10-01-2009, 03:12 PM

megaultrasuper

10-01-2009, 03:22 PM

Jesus fucking christ.

Nobody wants to turn off input leniency. They just want it back to pre-SFIV levels.

Fuck

Kich

10-01-2009, 03:23 PM

People need to think about this...

Charge characters have been able to charge down back since the first charge characters existed (heck, back in the day you could do DB to DF to get a sonic boom (made square gates very good)... getting accidental SRKs due to whatever you want to call it is new to SFIV...

so whatever you want to call it, some people (not you highlulu, just using your post as an example of charge character) should get off their high horse about being precise... this problem hasn't existed like this until SFIV...

Pretty sure everyone is in unanimous agreement that the input leniency needs to be toned down. People who ask for it to be removed are outright stupid, they don't understand the hardship that would bring on players; toning it down so that inputs aren't held for so long would help out a lot of things.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 03:25 PM

Ah... I just remembered of an exception to my earlier post, all relating to Fei Long's Tenshin.

Firstly, Tenshin input is :r:(:d:):l:. You can't start it with :df: like other half circle motions.

Secondly, it takes priority over Chicken Wing, which can cause hell when trying to FADC. If you're really close when performing a flame kick you very briefly cross under the opponent during the dash, which causes Tenshin to pretty much input itself and since it has more priority it's guaranteed to come out as soon as you press kick. I hope that gets swapped over :sad:

Drexion

10-01-2009, 04:12 PM

So much people are spewing misinformation in this thread, even though the accurate corrections are right above their posts. I mean jesus one guy is blaming his walking forward fireballs turning into a DP on 'shortcuts'. Sigh. A walking forward fireball has turned into a DP for the past 20 years in fighting games. (The correct explanation for that btw is Time Leniency, if you want to see a more thorough analysis on that read this (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7144820&postcount=63))

Kich, Sprint, Highlulu et al are correct.

FMJaguar>> Input Leniency, Time Leniency, and Overlapping-Movesets (link (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7588944&postcount=62)) are actual relevant issues for discussion, "shortcuts" are not. Most of the people who have complaints about the wrong move happening and blame it on 'shortcuts', their actual problem is with overlapping/similar move-sets - and as mentioned before those same people who don't realize that the Input Leniency is helping them a lot lot more than it is hurting them if at all.

Jarv

10-01-2009, 04:21 PM

Capcom, consider creating an option to let the player turn of or on input shortcuts. Some people might input 33HP for their flayming shoreyoucanz, that's fine but when I try and do Bison's ultra while charging downback I get Bison Teleport.

Sprint

10-01-2009, 04:30 PM

Stuff
That second link is an awesome post... says pretty much everything I was thinking of but couldn't think how to phrase :wgrin:

And right on cue, here's another one who can't read.

Capcom, consider creating an option to let the player turn of or on input shortcuts. Some people might input 33HP for their flayming shoreyoucanz, that's fine but when I try and do Bison's ultra while charging downback I get Bison Teleport.

Broken record time:
That's because you're failing the Ultra input, since Ultra takes priority over Teleport. Charge for the correct amount of time and finish the motion with :r: before pressing :3k: and teleport will never happen. If anything you want more leniency so you stop failing the Ultra.

shinblanka

10-01-2009, 04:38 PM

No option is needed. that will cause debate if they should be allowed in tournament play or not just like the :3p: or :3k: are debated for console play. Just take the shortcuts out. Forget an option to turn it on or off. It should never be in sf4 in the 1st place. Let's put more skillfull gameplay in ssf4 please.

I can see it now with people complaining about using the shortcuts in tournament play! I can hear it now! "It's in sf4 and it's an option in the game!" How are you being so unfair about not allowing shortcuts in your tournaments? I don't even want to hear that crap so just don't even have the option and get rid of the shortcuts period.

Razma

10-01-2009, 04:40 PM

Jarv

10-01-2009, 04:40 PM

Forreals with Abel I pressed 64HP, just trying to poke and I got command grab :\

Sprint

10-01-2009, 04:46 PM

Just purely out of curiosity, how does :df: :l: give Dhalsim a Yoga Flame when the motion was always HCB?

I have read the entire thread, and I know there are no shortcuts, but the above motion has worked for me to get out pesky MK - Yoga Flame combos.

I want my ST timing. :(

I posted details here:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7590753&postcount=111

Notice that the first input for HCB (:r:) is a lenient input, which means the game will accept :df: as a replacement, which causes :df::d::l: to work.

Actually I should probably quickly edit that to mention that Fei Long's Tenshin is different.

iGuile

10-01-2009, 04:51 PM

It's nice to not whiff Guile's ultra from time to time, but I still agree with the OP.

NG1313

10-01-2009, 04:52 PM

I would like to have the default system set to the current SFIV system, and an option to disable the extra help and leeway.

chicko1983

10-01-2009, 05:02 PM

chicko1983

10-01-2009, 05:17 PM

one thing that has just occured to me as I have read all of the posts from overnight.

I am a relatively newcomer to the SF series. Before you all cry "noob" or "scrub" I did have SF2 on SNES and can still remember playing SF on arcade as a kid, so I have known the series for a long time.

I didn't play any of the incarnations since the SNES game mainly because I turned to different genres other than fighting games and have got back into SF because of SF4 bringing all the old characters back.

This meant I had to learn all of the inputs over again which has resulted in me incorrectly learning how to execute the Ultras/Supers for the charge characters other than Balrog (who is my main).

Capcom, by putting in input leniency, now cannot take it out of the game because of all the new players to the series, like myself, have now learnt to input incorrectly.

I went back into training mode last night and could not do the ultra correctly from the LHS. All because I have gotten used to using the incorrect input.

So I now highly doubt Capcom will revert to the "old" system because it will ruin the experience for people who are new to the series since SF4, and thats a lot.

ilitirit

10-01-2009, 05:24 PM

While I'd love the option to disable input shortcuts, they aren't really much of a problem compared to the huge input buffer. You've literally got about 30 frames to input an SRK. In ST, only 8 frame SRK's are guaranteed, with 16 frames being the most lenient timing. Anything longer than that won't produce anything. This huge input buffer is what makes it harder to do things like walking fireballs, and it also gives the illusion that the reversal window is longer than what it really is (4 frames reality vs 10 perceived).

edit:
To clarify what I mean by "input buffer":
The game has a built-in LIFO buffer where all the inputs get stored for a short time. It works it's way from the back of the buffer to the front and finds the largest sequence of inputs that constitutes a move.

Now that I think about it, perhaps the problem isn't the length of the buffer (although, there's no reason any move should require 0.5 seconds...), perhaps some moves just require less lenient motion timing.

Mnszyk

10-01-2009, 05:37 PM

i dont mind the shortcuts, but i hate "input priority"

what do i mean by that? i mean when you have both super and ultra, even if you did ultra the super is much much more likely to occur. this makes doing some things, like c. viper's sjc ultra, very difficult if you have super meter. that's not all, either. viper's FFF ex seismo combo often results in a super.

That's not really a SF4 specific issue, you're literally just inputting the command wrong since QCFx2 P and QCFx2 PPP overlap. It was just as easy to do this in Alpha and accidentally get a weaker super then you intended. The only way to fix this without changing anything substantial would be if supers could be kara-canceled into ultras, which is problematic since the first frame of every super has a giant spark and a lot of them actually come out in only a few frames.