Sakura's Guard-Crush CC vs Counter-Attack/Counter-Movement

[bokchoy]

If the opponent can break out of the Guard-Crush CC simply by using up one of his meters to Counter-Attack, wouldn't that make Sakura's Guard-Crush CC only good against P and K (and maybe S)??

I heard that sometimes Counter-Attack gets outprioritized by the continuous DPs, but I'm not sure whether to empty Sakura's CC on a blocking opponent, if he's in C/A/N Groove...

Does anyone have an experienced say in this??

[magnus]

Originally posted by bokchoy
If the opponent can break out of the Guard-Crush CC simply by using up one of his meters to Counter-Attack, wouldn't that make Sakura's Guard-Crush CC only good against P and K (and maybe S)??

I heard that sometimes Counter-Attack gets outprioritized by the continuous DPs, but I'm not sure whether to empty Sakura's CC on a blocking opponent, if he's in C/A/N Groove...

Does anyone have an experienced say in this??


I am pretty sure that Sak follows the same property of out prioritizing and opponents counter-attack as long as you do raid DP really fast. anyways, with sak, you have no other choice than to empty your meter with repeated DP's. If you do anything else, you will most likely get punished. you can probably throw in a random roll in hopes that you will cause a wiffed counter-attack, then punish from there.

I know that with kyo and iori, their guard crush cc will beat out counter-attacks. I will see if I can test it out soon, unless Gunter or Gandido can come in and comfirm this.:D

[bokchoy]

Originally posted by magnus



I am pretty sure that Sak follows the same property of out prioritizing and opponents counter-attack as long as you do raid DP really fast. anyways, with sak, you have no other choice than to empty your meter with repeated DP's. If you do anything else, you will most likely get punished. you can probably throw in a random roll in hopes that you will cause a wiffed counter-attack, then punish from there.

I know that with kyo and iori, their guard crush cc will beat out counter-attacks. I will see if I can test it out soon, unless Gunter or Gandido can come in and comfirm this.:D

No you don't quite understand what I'm asking.
Against P/K, I activate my CC from up close, regardless of whether they can block it or not, because it'll do big damage either way, and they can't get out. Against Grooves with Counter-Attack or Counter-Movement, I'm not sure if it's worth it to use up a CC, even though there's a high probability that they'll block it.

Also note that if they Counter-Attack the CC, they lose one level, and you lose about one level, and you'll both take approximately the same amount of damage, so it's a fair trade-off. However, Sakura retains some of her meter, giving her more chances at landing a CC.

So, basically what I'm asking is:
Against a groove with Counter-Attack/Counter-Roll, if I have a full meter with Sakura, should I be more conservative with the CC (only using it if it's a guaranteed hit) or should I use it aggressively (not worrying about the opponent blocking it or not)??

[magnus]

Originally posted by bokchoy


No you don't quite understand what I'm asking.
Against P/K, I activate my CC from up close, regardless of whether they can block it or not, because it'll do big damage either way, and they can't get out. Against Grooves with Counter-Attack or Counter-Movement, I'm not sure if it's worth it to use up a CC, even though there's a high probability that they'll block it.

Also note that if they Counter-Attack the CC, they lose one level, and you lose about one level, and you'll both take approximately the same amount of damage, so it's a fair trade-off. However, Sakura retains some of her meter, giving her more chances at landing a CC.

So, basically what I'm asking is:
Against a groove with Counter-Attack/Counter-Roll, if I have a full meter with Sakura, should I be more conservative with the CC (only using it if it's a guaranteed hit) or should I use it
aggressively (not worrying about the opponent blocking it or not)??



Sorry about that.

I honestly use it to guard crush the opponent. In the process, if the oppenent counters, they will most likely counter at the beggin of teh cc. If they do, you have done some chip, and still have a good amount of bar left to build and be able to activate once again.

If you play it conservative, then you risk running your bar down, and prolly won;'t do no damge. People know you can't block, so they will either take advantage and hit you out, or they will turtlel, causing you to wast your meter.

So personally, I would waste the cc aggressively.:D

[bokchoy]

Originally posted by magnus




Sorry about that.

I honestly use it to guard crush the opponent. In the process, if the oppenent counters, they will most likely counter at the beggin of teh cc. If they do, you have done some chip, and still have a good amount of bar left to build and be able to activate once again.

If you play it conservative, then you risk running your bar down, and prolly won;'t do no damge. People know you can't block, so they will either take advantage and hit you out, or they will turtlel, causing you to wast your meter.

So personally, I would waste the cc aggressively.:D

Nononono. You still don't understand. *sigh* If you activated and the opponent is blocking, of course you're gonna do the GC Custom That's a no-brainer.

However, if the opponent is in a position where he there is a good chance that he will block the CC, should I still activate, or should I look for a better chance to land the CC.

For example, with a character like Bison, 90% of the time, I activate when the CC is absolutely guaranteed to hit.

[magnus]

Originally posted by bokchoy



However, if the opponent is in a position where he there is a good chance that he will block the CC, should I still activate, or should I look for a better chance to land the CC.



that explains everything right there. why activate if you know the opponent is going to block the cc. If you activate, you will most likely waste the meter.

looking for an opportunity to land the cc is what you should be looking for. Unless they have little life and you want to chip them.

[bokchoy]

magnus>> That's where you're wrong. You obviously don't play A-Sakura. Suppose I was fighting against a P/K-Groove user. If I had full meter, and they were in a position where if I activated a CC, there's nothing they could do but block it, I would definitely activate.

-Each blocked hit does 100 damage each.
-14 DPs at 4 hits each = 5600, and a crushed guard.
-Lv1 Super does 2000.

That is roughly 7600 damage. Also, I DON'T have to waste time looking for an opportunity to hit the CC. Instead, I can just get in close, activate, paint his fence, then get back to building my meter again. Most importantly, it's FREE UNAVOIDABLE DAMAGE.

Now, if I wait for an opportunity where I could hit the custom combo, I'm just wasting time. I would land 0-2 customs with Sakura. If I used them ASAP, I would land 3-4.

You see what I mean??

Now, I'm wondering if I should be doing the same thing against grooves that can counter, such as CASN. Can someone give me some EXPERIENCED info on this?

[taiji]

he plays a-sakura u dumb fuck. I dunno why you keep asking, you seem to be answering your own questions.

obviously u can do it anytime against p/k.

against the rest, do it when they roll , lose tripguard, wiff a slow poke, after connected d. wk, d. wp, after cross up, activate 2nd against another agroove, etc. etc. really just common sense.

Now when they block, usually from who i played, they alphacounter//roll either from the start, or like after few dp's (roughly 2-3 seconds in real time).

Sometimes u can feel when there gonna counter, so just do something like d. wk , then block. Then from there see what they do. they wiff the coutner, continue whatever. im sure u can come up w/ yr own shit now

[GeekBoy]

If it's not a DP or fast alpha counter, don't expect it to do much. Counter-Movement is probably the only really effective AC since you're out of the way and you're able to retaliate very fast afterwards.

[bokchoy]

Originally posted by taiji
he plays a-sakura u dumb fuck. I dunno why you keep asking, you seem to be answering your own questions.

obviously u can do it anytime against p/k.

against the rest, do it when they roll , lose tripguard, wiff a slow poke, after connected d. wk, d. wp, after cross up, activate 2nd against another agroove, etc. etc. really just common sense.

Now when they block, usually from who i played, they alphacounter//roll either from the start, or like after few dp's (roughly 2-3 seconds in real time).

Sometimes u can feel when there gonna counter, so just do something like d. wk , then block. Then from there see what they do. they wiff the coutner, continue whatever. im sure u can come up w/ yr own shit now

Read this, and tell me if this sounds like a proficient A-Sakura player:

why activate if you know the opponent is going to block the cc. If you activate, you will most likely waste the meter.

Anyway, I know how to use A-Groove, you fool. I'm not looking for an A-Groove tutorial. I would just like to know what the properties of Sakura's GC CC vs Counter-Attack are. Despite several explanations, magnus didn't understand what my question was, and neither do you. Geekboy knows what I'm talking about.

By the way:

Sometimes u can feel when there gonna counter, so just do something like d. wk , then block. Then from there see what they do. they wiff the coutner, continue whatever. im sure u can come up w/ yr own shit now

You can't block during an activated CC, dumbass.

Originally posted by GeekBoy
If it's not a DP or fast alpha counter, don't expect it to do much. Counter-Movement is probably the only really effective AC since you're out of the way and you're able to retaliate very fast afterwards.

So most Counter-Attacks don't work against it?? Yah, I've had Ryu and Sagat blow through it with Counter-Attacks, but I've went through Blanka's before. Maybe I should test it out to see whose Counters get out prioritized. Thanks a lot.

[bokchoy]

Okay, since nobody had an answer, I just took the 15 minutes to figure it out for myself.

The Counter-Attacks which cleanly beat Sakura's Guard-Crush CC (obviously) end her CC, and do roughly the same damage to her as she does to the opponent. She retains 50% of the meter she had when she got hit, plus the amount she gains from getting hit. I don't think this is worth it for Sakura against C-Groove, because half an A-Groove meter is more valuable than one C/N meter. However, against another A-Groove, I think it's not a big loss, if any at all. Your failed chance at a CC, but your opponent loses just as much meter as you do. On top of that, Sakura builds meter extremely quickly and safely, so the advantage is yours. So, if you're aggressive with your activations, failed attempts result in no disadvantage for you, and the chance at a landed CC makes it all worthwhile.

The Counter-Attacks which trade hits with Sakura are basically the same as the ones which cleanly beat her out. They both have the same effect, but result in a little bit more damage to the opponent. The difference is very little though.

The Counter-Attacks which cause both the opponent and Sakura to whiff are probably the worst for Sakura. Not only does the opponent avoid chip damage, but Sakura's CC continues, forcing her to lose ALL of her meter, as opposed to just half. After the counter, Sakura probably won't be able to catch her fleeing opponent.

The Counter-Attacks which are out-prioritized by Sakura's Guard Crush CC are obviously beneficial to Sakura. 7500 free damage is always a good thing.

**When doing a Counter-Attack against Sakura's Guard Crush CC, the following characters beat Sakura out cleanly:
-Benimaru
-Cammy
-Guile
-Iori
-Ken
-Ryo
-Ryu
-Sagat
-Yuri

**The following characters have Counter-Attacks which cause both Sakura's CC AND the Counter-Attack to whiff (ie. go through each other)
-Kyosuke
-Rolento
-Yun

**The rest of the characters have Counter-Attacks which trade hits with Sakura, ending her CC....except for....

**BLANKA!! He is the only character in the game whose counter-attack gets beaten out cleanly by Sakura's Guard Crush CC. He's also arguably the best character in the game, so you will likely find this useful. If he attempts to counter-attack, he just wastes a super and gets hit. If he doesn't, he takes chip damage. In any case, like against P and K-Grooves, an activated CC results in 7500+ damage, whether you block it or not.

Originally posted by bokchoy

You can't block during an activated CC, dumbass.


:lol: when i saw him post that, i was :lol: hard

[taiji]

yeah, you can't block during a cc, I dunno what I was thinking.

[Mummy-B]

A little trick you can do to avoid being Guard Cancel Countered is to cancel your DP into a Roll when you see the pause for the GC start.

[bokchoy]

Originally posted by taiji
yeah, you can't block during a cc, I dunno what I was thinking.

That's cuz you WEREN'T thinking, you "dumb fuck".

MummyB>> Thanks. I'll try that and see how it works for me.

[taiji]

Yea, i wasnt. i appoligize for that earlier comment, was just hot headed in defending my friend, who does play a mean a-sakura

[Cicada]

:lol:

[bokchoy]

Aight cool.

Back on topic...Yeah, I basically try to HIT the other guy with the custom now, except when playing against P/K, and C/A-Blanka. In those cases, I just try to unload it asap, as long as they at least block it. Also, in some cases against A-Groove, I do that too (eg. Bison with near Empty meter, another Sakura, etc...) If I get it blocked against a C/A/N user, I'll probably go for the overhead..

[artoflife]

here's a surefire way to get ur gc cc in on a p/k user
when u get close enuff for a b&B (lp x2 - lk - fierce dp)
do this instead
lp walk a bit lp (repeat)
then when u feel comfortable and confident enough activatate and gc the hell outta them k/p users
*ps this works best on big chars*
if u try to do this on nako or even sakura herself
the opponent will just crouch and ur lp will totally whiff

this is also a good way to pressurise ur opponent
like....wats he gonna do to a sakura walking up to him and starts doing lp walk lp
trade?parry?(i dun think so)
just make sure the lps dont link
once u start this trap going on....its a great way to gain meter as well and start ur sakura mind games with the opponent

*now the only damn thing to do is to get my cc in when im on the right...dang*

[lifetimeboy]

anyone know a counter for this in p or k? Can you bait an activation and parry into dp? or jab?

the first thing to come out with sak is a 4 hit dp right? it's a hi or low parry right? So hi or low parry would freeze time and then dp?

Thanks

[Gen.d00dz]

Why's there always BEEF guys?! :(

[Dan_is_my_hero]

I'm gonna put a little input on this, since I started playing A-sak now, and I have had some talks with Apoc and King about this subject.

Let's examine by just groove, and not character specific.

vs. C
C just builds bar too fast. If they are empty, it will take at most 4-5 rotations til they have 1 bar, and then GC ya. So it really isn't a good idea in this situation. However, if you practice cancelling a DP into a roll when you see the flash, you can catch avoid the cancel and possibly reset your combo (it varies upon characters), you just need to practice it (Apoc makes it sound so easy -_-)

vs. A
If you're playing against any decent A-groover, they will counter activate and get a free 8k or so on ya, so I really don't suggest burning it in that situation. They also have the option of GC'ing so it's still iffy. I would wait for them to activate and counter activate.

vs. P
Well, depends on how good the P-groove player is. I've had the computer parry my opening low hit of a combos and DP/Super me quite a few times recently, so theoretically a good P-groove could do the same. A little FYI, I normally won't burn a P-groove player because of the amount of bar they gain from blocking the combo. P-groove will get a full bar out of a blocked combo. But if it will kill a main character (r2, sagat, random top tier) or they already have near to full bar, Burn that Shit. ;)

vs S.
This ends up being similar to C. S will build bar as blocking and just GC. Or dodge the first hit and depending on the character, hit you out of your combo (examples of this are character's that have a 'hop' style dodge attack, where they leave the ground such as Guild and Chun Li, they will go over the initial low hit (if you go low, I normally do) and hit you out of the combo)

vs. N
A smart N player, will counter roll early or counter hit. Kind of a guessing game, but Dp cancelled to roll by you will at least put you on even ground.

vs. K
From what I hear, Ino (best K-groove player in Japan?) will just burn a super upon A-groove activation. If they aren't raged I suppose it's possible to JD the first hit and DP or something, but it's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to do. This is by far the best groove to do the block cc.

On a general note, I like to activate when the guard bar fairly low in the first place, usually done by block strings (either cross-up mk, wk, wp, wk or rc'd hurricane kicks cr. mp rc'd hurricane kick etc) Or you can throw in a random roll -> activate low hit, and hope to catch them off guards.

Hope this is of some help.

[Gwai Lo ½]

Their guard meter when you activate and their bar at the time is also a factor, because obviously you are going to hit them with some s.rh, rc.hurricaine kicks, other pokes. i've guard broken an n-groove before they got bar, I dont remember how much guard i had already taken off though.

edit: oops! i didn't finish reading the post before mine :sweat:


Do you think it is good to intentionally take a counter hit to drop their block guard more? or does it put you in too much of a defensive position to continue guard break.

Cancelling into roll when you see the flash sounds like it might take me some practice :sweat: But it would be awesome if i could get it, hehe