Raging demon (shun goku satsu)

[Hobo-Joe]

i read a list made by srwilson on some basic ways into the raging demon...but i cant find the list.So if anyone knows some of the basic ones and can post them,id be greatfull
thanx

[exodus]

if opponent jumps in, dash forward [cross under] or dash backwards and do the raging demon.

[DAVID]

some basic moves i used to do:

if someone likes to relatiate your blocked sweep with a sweep then let him block your sweep then cancel into raging demon.

wiff dive kick and once you land do a raging demon.

medium hurricane and once you land on the other side do a raging de....

dash then raging de....

[GKfury]

I have a theory...

throw the fireball that is done by hcb+high p (I forgot the name) against a player that techs moves a lot...then while this is happening, execute the rage!

[arcticninja]

that would only work on someone who is brain dead.

[GKfury]

why's that?

[kal el]

erm...

Because you can see it coming???

If you have your opponent backed into his corner and do HP Shakunetsu Hadouken xx SGS (from say, sweep distance), then i would say that it's a relatively ok thing to do. But if you're like, chucking that fireball half (or worse), full screen away and expect the guy to get drawn into eating SGS, then yeah, as was mentioned, only the mentally challenged would fall for it.

[LordTalbain]

Has anyone parry'd the raging with a throw?? I haven't seen it but its theoretically possible right?

[GKfury]

No, you can't parry the Rage with a throw.

and to kal el...I only said to fire the Shankunetsu against someone who techs fireballs a lot, where the hell do you come off saying that half screen-full sreen crap? I just make it simple...read my previous post again.

[exodus]

regardless if a player likes to tech alot, if he's anything short of an idiot, he would block the fireball and then proceed to jump out after block stun. if he's anything short of an idiot.

[GKfury]

...how well do you guys know this game?

[exodus]

"weller" than you. :D

[Rei]

Raging cajun is teh bestest antiair evar!!

[GKfury]

Originally posted by exodus
"weller" than you. :D

then teach me something better, or I'll go play a better fighting game...

[exodus]

there is no better fighting game. :D

in order to efficiently use SGS, the most common way is to do kara-demon, which is jab jab, forward + strong, short, fierce. in order to use SGS at all, you must learn to buffer it. such as with a dash, dive kick, or demon flip dive kick variant.

to play akuma better, you have to know play the game itself better. buffering is a game tactic, not a character tactic. watch lots of videos of top players, and study their style, then learn why those styles are good or not good.

[GKfury]

you're right, at the moment there isn't a better fighting game:D

thanks for the info exodus, now I'm gonna learn how to play with Makoto in the other thread, care to join me?

[SrWilson3S]

Ive said it before and ill say it again cr short ->Kara demon is the best set up ever! lol.

[JLC]

If you do the demon while someone's parrying the red fireball, they can just hold back and block the rest of the fireball, and then jump. Parrying doesn't make you any more vunerable than just standing there.

[exodus]

didn't i already say that :X

the coolest demon situation though, is to demon after parrying part of an aegis reflector, catching urien as he tries to high/low you in aegis. :cool: :lol: :D :evil:

[JLC]

Whoops, I thought you meant blocking the red fireball from the start instead of parrying part of it. :)

Heh, yeah. The demon is practically another Gigas Breaker. With less range. Well, you can potentially grab people from further away, but the guaranteed range is less than Gigas, I think.

[YooYoung]

Originally posted by JLC
If you do the demon while someone's parrying the red fireball, they can just hold back and block the rest of the fireball, and then jump. Parrying doesn't make you any more vunerable than just standing there.

im going to disagree with that statement. try doing a air fireball, and then dash in demon. if they parry it, they cant get out.

also, if you do red fireball xx demon, if you space your self correctly, if they parry the first hit of the fireball, the demon will hit

simon

[JLC]

No, they can always parry and hold up. Parrying doesn't make you vunerable whatsoever. In fact, you get frame advantage from parrying, so you can always act before your opponent does anything.

[exodus]

nope JLC -- parrying gives you frame advantage, but the parry frames are subsceptible to all grab moves. that's why twd + strong, if parried, is such a great demon trap [that almost noone knows about =/]. :evil:

simon: as for timing red fireball -- unless they parry the 2nd hit or 3rd hit, AND you're close by, i don't think that'll ever happen, considering the recovery frames on the red fireball is so high. :) but as i've said before -- anyone short of an idiot wouldn't fall for that. and for the air fireball trap -- you don't even need to dash. just do a kneedeep air fireball and buffer the demon until you land. :)

[JLC]

Well, if you do the demon right beside someone while they're parrying, it'll grab most of the time. But this is not because of the parry itself. Parrying is essentially the same as staying in neutral state. The reason is that when most people parry something, they'll tend to react with a counterattack, or even just block or do nothing. Nobody ever parries and then hold up. And you need to hold up before the super freeze to jump out of the demon at point blank. So yes, doing the demon while someone's parrying something right beside you will result in success most of the time, but it's not because of the properties of the parry itself - it's because of how people tend to act after a parry.

For a similar experiment you can try clap cancelled into Gigas with Hugo. It is possible to parry to the clap and then immediately hold up to jump the Gigas.

[YooYoung]

Originally posted by exodus


simon: as for timing red fireball -- unless they parry the 2nd hit or 3rd hit, AND you're close by, i don't think that'll ever happen, considering the recovery frames on the red fireball is so high. :) but as i've said before -- anyone short of an idiot wouldn't fall for that. and for the air fireball trap -- you don't even need to dash. just do a kneedeep air fireball and buffer the demon until you land. :)

whats up man, the only time i do a red fireball into demon, which is rare. is when they have to parry or die from the block damage from the fireball. dont get me wrong it is rare. but when you do get the chance to do it, its like pick your poison.

exodus, you goin to evo, cuz its tough to explain the air fireball dash in demon, and i can just show you there

late

simon

[exodus]

JLC: i don't know --> there's never been a situation where someone has jumped out of my parry to demon, but i guess since you pointed out the hugo situation, i can only assume it works also with RD. however, there's just something about RD's FEELING that says GRABBED. and even though hugo's startup is 1, and RD is 2, it still seems that gigas is slower cuz of the animation.......:confused:

simon: unfortunately, i can't come to EVO cuz of family/monetary problems. parents don't like me gaming, so traveling to game for money is obviously out of the question. especially when i live on the opposite side of the coast. but i'm going to try my best to make it to ncubed this year...

as for the air fireball situation, i do know what you're talking about. however, i don't find it very feasible either, because doing air fireball around peak is very subsceptible to dash unders -- kneedeeps prevent this, although i doubt any person would parry a knee-deep air fireball. but for that very same purpose, you can knee-deep the jab fireball to buffer for demon, since the fireball doesnt come out.

[StreakSRM]

I heard from SlimX that the startup for gigas is 4 actual frames, but it has a unique property that you can't start a jump during those 4 frames. So you have to start the jump before the gigas, even though it might not look like it when the gigas starts. the RD may have the same sort of property, with the only weird thing being that is has multiple grab frames, so it keeps trying to grab you. Either way it bears further testing. As an interesting note, if you are in blockstun when the RD start, just mash jab+short and you'll throw akuma out of it. Even the blockstun from a jab when you are doing the motion is enough to get thrown.

[Rei]

Originally posted by StreakSRM
I heard from SlimX that the startup for gigas is 4 actual frames, but it has a unique property that you can't start a jump during those 4 frames. So you have to start the jump before the gigas, even though it might not look like it when the gigas starts. the RD may have the same sort of property, with the only weird thing being that is has multiple grab frames, so it keeps trying to grab you. Either way it bears further testing. As an interesting note, if you are in blockstun when the RD start, just mash jab+short and you'll throw akuma out of it. Even the blockstun from a jab when you are doing the motion is enough to get thrown.
Start-up for Megaton Press is 4 frames.

Start-up for Gigas is 1 frame.

[StreakSRM]

Originally posted by Rei

Start-up for Megaton Press is 4 frames.

Start-up for Gigas is 1 frame.

Gee, you can read the numbers off my own site, good for you. I got those numbers out of a book, and just because it's printed in a book doesn't mean it's perfectly accurate. I challenge you to record the super animation for the gigas and watch it frame by frame. I just did, and the way I see it, the whole super freeze counts as 1 frame, hugo then leans forward for 1 more frame, and then grabs him the very next frame. Aha you might say, that's clearly 2 frames, so you're wrong. But I would laugh, because I know the game runs at 60fps, and my capture card only captures at 30. But the point is proved that it is more than 1 frame.

Back to what i was originally going to post about, if akuma does the SGS right next to you like off the dive kick in a way that doesn't cause you to go into block or hitstun, you cannot jump after the super freeze, he's got you.

[Rei]

Originally posted by StreakSRM


Gee, you can read the numbers off my own site, good for you. I got those numbers out of a book, and just because it's printed in a book doesn't mean it's perfectly accurate. I challenge you to record the super animation for the gigas and watch it frame by frame. I just did, and the way I see it, the whole super freeze counts as 1 frame, hugo then leans forward for 1 more frame, and then grabs him the very next frame. Aha you might say, that's clearly 2 frames, so you're wrong. But I would laugh, because I know the game runs at 60fps, and my capture card only captures at 30. But the point is proved that it is more than 1 frame.

Back to what i was originally going to post about, if akuma does the SGS right next to you like off the dive kick in a way that doesn't cause you to go into block or hitstun, you cannot jump after the super freeze, he's got you.
I have the bible, I don't need your site. Still, the "grab" is the "hit" frame, not the start-up frame.

If I retract my statement above, can I also join the "SlimX nut licker" club? Otherwise, I've proved my point.

[bakemono]

If you parry a projectile you are frozen for the parry free and can be throw, but because it's a projectile you parried your opponent and move freely. So comparing red fireballs to hugo's clap is wrong. If someone is parrying a red fireball and you dash into raging demon and are point blank, unless you got the raging demon out exactly when one of their parries ended, they will be grabbed, even if they were holding up before the super freeze.

[exodus]

Originally posted by Rei

I have the bible, I don't need your site. Still, the "grab" is the "hit" frame, not the start-up frame.

If I retract my statement above, can I also join the "SlimX nut licker" club? Otherwise, I've proved my point.

well -- it's very confusing considering that the information within the book, and the information at the end of the book, can sometimes be conflicting. when streak transferred the frame data, he went along the entire book, and then used the end of the book [in the charts] for more information.

i believe the information at the end of the book is more accurate [as well as more information given], so i will reform the data on karathrow.com to reflect the entire chart in the back of the book [thus eliminating any conflicting data].

but rei...if you had the book, you would realize that the start-up for gigas is actually 5 frames. it reports it as 1 frame in the middle, which is why it is reported as 1 frame at karathrow.com -- do you really have the book? =/

in any event -- i'm going to try and translate as much as i can to see if it solves this parrying issue...

[Rei]

Originally posted by exodus


well -- it's very confusing considering that the information within the book, and the information at the end of the book, can sometimes be conflicting. when streak transferred the frame data, he went along the entire book, and then used the end of the book [in the charts] for more information.

i believe the information at the end of the book is more accurate [as well as more information given], so i will reform the data on karathrow.com to reflect the entire chart in the back of the book [thus eliminating any conflicting data].

but rei...if you had the book, you would realize that the start-up for gigas is actually 5 frames. it reports it as 1 frame in the middle, which is why it is reported as 1 frame at karathrow.com -- do you really have the book? =/

in any event -- i'm going to try and translate as much as i can to see if it solves this parrying issue...
Yeah, have the book, and the New Generation bible.

A while back I was posting stuff from the book in the character threads (before each character got their own sub-forum) and got flamed to high heaven about it by people like SlimX. Granted, it looked like I was pulling this stuff out of my ass, because I wasn't citing my source, but nevertheless, SlimX still thinks he is final authority on the subject, even when I'm quoting the bible and other guides directly.

I've become jaded to the whole who is right and who is wrong argument. Who cares?

I'm just here to play third strike.

[exodus]

i'm not sure of your past relations with slimx, but he has the bible, and translates it fairly well as well. after all, it wasn't until streak posted that slimx said that gigas startup was 4 -- that was when i checked the book myself. people look up to him because he's tinkered with the game alot, and has knowledge of the game. i'm sure noone is in the slimx nut licker club. streak and slimx are real life friends, and they 3S all the time...=P

[SlimX]

Wha- wha- what? Why is my name being thrown around in here so much? I get my frame information from a page by a guy named Zero who lists the arcade frame data and how it works (http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley-Oakland/3285/zero.htm). Instead of just listing a number for how fast supers start up, he has the number of frames the screen is frozen, activation, "stuck" frames, etc. In reference to Hugo, as Streak said, you can also watch it frame by frame and see that he goes through multiple frames before he makes the grab. I also don't just make this stuff up, but I also site my sources. Rei is bitter with me because of an exchange that took place in the Elena thread a while back (though our discussion had little to do with Elena). What started it was this description:

"
A target combo is part of the 3S game engine, and does not favor any specific character.

Every character has a super that will "step forward" and continue the combo even though they don't have a normal move that could do the same thing. Elena's target combo super is break dance. Chun's is SAII, Dudley's is Cockscrew Blow, Necro's is E_Snake, etc.
"

I told him this was incorrect and asked him to site even one source that backed it up, and he wouldn't do so. You can read the whole thing here:

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7299&perpage=60&pagenumber=1

As far as jumping out of the demon is concerned, again, as JLC said, parrying gives you frame advantage. You can always input a command first (including jumping) before anything will happen to you. Mind you, you'd have to parry and -immediately- hold up, but it is technically possible. It is, in fact, the same principle as Gigas. Projectiles have nothing to do with it.

[Rei]

OFMG!!1!! SILMX!1!@! CAN I GET YUOR AUTOGRAPHZOR?!?/?!?1

<3<3<3

kekekekekekeke

[bakemono]

Go into parry training. Have the dummy be akuma and have him walk forward a little bit, throw a fierce red fireball, and dash forward and throw right as he recovers from the fireball. Now, replay it and try to parry all 3 hits of the fireball and jump. I dare you to jump.

[JLC]

Hey Rei you must be an elite SF grandmaster. Could you teach me sitting strong target comboed ShinShoryuken please?

[KingRaoh]

now everyone who reads that will be GRANDMASTERS!!!!! damn, Rei giving away the deepest dojo secrets! i'm gonna sitting forwardxxdonkey kick you! or maybe hopxxsuper!

PS- that's okay because it's a verdite dimensional split and SRKers don't understand science and molecules and...

[exodus]

slimx: the bible also lists screen-freeze frames, invincibility frames, and opponent freeze-frames. all the in-depth information lies in the charts in the back of the book. also -- some of zero's information might be inaccurate, as i was intrigued to see how long akuma's 'god-hand' was invincible for. zero reports it as only 2 frames, which is obviously not true. the bible however, reports it at 20 frames, which is definitely more accurate.

and guys, let's stop the flaming. rei had backup for his explanation of the 'target combo', and slimx had an adequate reason to not believe him. don't instigate :P

in any case, i've solved the problem! :D -- you cannot escape a raging demon after parrying akuma's move, if akuma is canceling the move into the demon. for instance, akuma does -> + strong to do his overhead chop. while the animation is running, he is doing the RD command, and once the opponent parries the overhead hit, the demon activates. at this point, the opponent has no way of escaping. i can't be EXACT as to whether or not he can escape if he taps up right after he parries, but i'm going to guess no. every character's jump start-up frame is at least 3 frames, while the demon only has 2 frames for start-up. you also cannot input any commands while the game is in the super-arts freeze animation. but then again, IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW QUICKLY THE AKUMA PLAYER EXECUTED THE DEMON. if it executed right after the opponent parries, i highly doubt the opponent has time to input the jump command [since the freeze animation would take effect].

JLC was correct in saying they can escape hugo's, because hugo's gigas has a 5-frame start-up. being as each character's jump is no less than 3 frames and no more than 5 frames, it is possible to hold up after the parry to escape the gigas, as long as gigas is not performed so quickly that the opponent doesnt even have a chance to tap up. note however, that the opponent cannot input any commands during 4 of the 5 frame start-up [this explains why you may not jump after the animation freeze].

on a sadder note, i'm no longer working with streak to improve www.karathrow.com :( i overdid it...tehehhee...oh well, guess i'm free to play around tomorrow :D

[JLC]

Well, the thing is, when you parry something, the screen actually freezes a bit and you get a small frame advantage where you can perform an input before whatever the opponent does. It's like an exclusive time segment where only you can act. Now, according to karathrow.com, Hyper Bomb has a 3-frame start-up, and we all know that you can jump out of it after the super freeze. So it appears that jumping out of a grab requires 3 or less frames. I don't know exactly how much frame advantage parrying gives you, but let's be minimal and say it's 1. We know from Hyper Bomb that it takes at most 3 frames to jump out of a throw. So say you parry something and immediately hold up, and then bam, next thing you know the screen freezes and you see Akuma do the demon. Well, you've already spent 1 frame jumping. Demon has a 2-frame start-up before it goes into the actually grabbing frames. By the second frame of the start-up, you should've jumped off the ground already.

This is all very confusing so let me use the below chart. T: A denotes that Action A happens at time T measured in frames, so something like 3: fireball would indicate doing a fireball 3 frames past time 0. Note I'm not counting the time a super freeze takes up.

Case Alex vs Ryu:

0: Alex performs Hyper Bomb. Screen freezes. Ryu holds up during super freeze.
1~3: Hyper Bomb start-up frames. Ryu jumps out at some point. Let's say at 3.
4: Hyper Bomb whiffs.

Case Akuma vs Ryu:

0: Ryu parries an attack.
1: Ryu gets this frame exclusively due to the parry. He holds up. (note I'm assuming that parry advantage is 1 frame)
2: Akuma performs the demon. Screen freezes.
3~4: Demon start-up frames. If it takes 3 frames to jump, Ryu would've jumped at 4.
5~: Demon whiffs.

Hope I made that clear. =) So yeah, because of this I believe that it is technically possible to jump out of the demon after a parry. Although, nobody ever, ever holds up after a parry any way, so doing a demon on someone parrying at point blank is almost guaranteed to connect.

[exodus]

i think there exists a reason for alex's hyperbomb not following the frame rules. my ASSUMPTION, is that alex's hyperbomb actually pushes characters AWAY if the character is in jump start-up [or vice versa, pushes him BACK], because if you note, at the end of the jump, alex and opponent are no longer close to each other. this would seem logical, considering that the hyperbomb has a weak range.

since we do not know the exact data of parry and input command, maybe someone should try it out. have a friend parry and immediately tap up, and see what happens...

[bakemono]

It's pretty easy to test most of this in Parry Training on DC...