The BlackHeart thread

[Ryu Shinnosuke']

Hi.
I just wanted to know if anyone loves using BH as much as i do:)
How do you use him?
I love using him in air games(his basic attacks have great priority),
He's also very good at poking^_^ Don't forget those demons! But i don't throw them all day, i try to combo, grab etc. BlackHeart can have the advantage over a lot of mid-tier characters, to bad he dies awfully to Mags, storms, cables(especially with CapCom's assist), cammy's and Psylockes.

I make people hate BlackHeart:(

Post anything you like, peace:)

[wassup]

how does his infinite work? i know when you hit them with roundhouse when they're in the air they can't move, they land and they bounce a while, then you hit them with ad/b roundhouse and they should bounce up and you repeat - but i try they don't always bounce up sometimes they just bounce a little more on the ground :confused:

also how practical is his infinite in tournament level gameplay and what are some combos you use?

[Ryu Shinnosuke']

Originally posted by wassup
how does his infinite work? i know when you hit them with roundhouse when they're in the air they can't move, they land and they bounce a while, then you hit them with ad/b roundhouse and they should bounce up and you repeat - but i try they don't always bounce up sometimes they just bounce a little more on the ground :confused:

also how practical is his infinite in tournament level gameplay and what are some combos you use? I'm not an infinite whore, but it is supposed to be done like this:

(HK XX /\ XX Air Dash, sj.LK, sj.MK, \/) It works for me!
And i never see blackheart used in tournaments, people just get very mad when i use him:sweat:
But here are some useful combos:

d/f+fp XX Armageddon.
d/f+fp /\ jp,sk,sp,fk.
sk,rk jump u/f judgement day(air)
sk,rk, Heart of darkness_Judgement Day_Armegeddon(In the corner)
Blackheart's has lots more combos, but i'm kind of in a hurry^_^
I hope this helped a little...

Peace:)

[wassup]

k thanks

someone posted this combo somewhere it's really really cool but maybe not practical -

s.lk, s.hk, TK sj.[Judgement Day, lk, mk], land, s.lk + Cyclops-AAA, s.mk XX sj., sj.[hk XX ad/b hk], land, Fierce Inferno, c.lk (OTG), s.mp XX Fierce Inferno XX Heart of Darkness, s.hk (juggle), j.[lk, mk], land, hp throw

oh yeah a more practical air combo would probably be oc.hp, sj., sj.[lp, lk, mp, ad/f, lp, lk, mp, pause, hp throw]

[ph!Lop!a]

Originally posted by wassup
k thanks

someone posted this combo somewhere it's really really cool but maybe not practical -

s.lk, s.hk, TK sj.[Judgement Day, lk, mk], land, s.lk + Cyclops-AAA, s.mk XX sj., sj.[hk XX ad/b hk], land, Fierce Inferno, c.lk (OTG), s.mp XX Fierce Inferno XX Heart of Darkness, s.hk (juggle), j.[lk, mk], land, hp throw

oh yeah a more practical air combo would probably be oc.hp, sj., sj.[lp, lk, mp, ad/f, lp, lk, mp, pause, hp throw]

wow. what a great combo. i dont think the TK judgement day will connect off a s.fk though. and the after the super its:

[while falling] lk, land, c.lk + cykes AAA, c.lk XX sj...then the rest of it.

when i do his infinite i just use the cykes set up sj.fk XX a/d back fk, land, sj. repeat

as for connecting his launcher do a deep jump in j.lk, j.lk, land, c/f.fp

whee.

[wassup]

Originally posted by ph!Lop!a


wow. what a great combo. i dont think the TK judgement day will connect off a s.fk though. and the after the super its:

[while falling] lk, land, c.lk + cykes AAA, c.lk XX sj...then the rest of it.

when i do his infinite i just use the cykes set up sj.fk XX a/d back fk, land, sj. repeat

as for connecting his launcher do a deep jump in j.lk, j.lk, land, c/f.fp

whee.

lol phil that's your combo :P

anyways i would think the hk demons will keep them 'trapped' until you walk forward and TK Judgement Day ... ? should work ...

anyways s.lk + Cyclops-AAA, s.mk XX sj. works too since that's what i did

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by wassup
anyways i would think the hk demons will keep them 'trapped' until you walk forward and TK Judgement Day ... ? should work ...It's too easy to mash out.

I make it a point to never try to S.Roundhouse in combos with BH unless I know it's going to hit. The reason for this is it's easy to call an assist between the kick and the demons coming out if it's blocked. If you watch the videos of Viscant v. Soo when Viscant plays BH at the Riverside tournament, this happens a few times.

[N-Ken]

Umm the more common infinite I believe goes like this:

With Cyc AA

c. lk + call cyc, c. lk /\ sj. RH backdash sj. RH \/ [ /\ sj. RH, backdash, sj. RH \/] Repeat in brackets of course.

Cyc is just an example, other AA's can set it up also, Chun makes it frighteningly easy, but essentially swap in an AA such as CapCom or Cable and do the same combo, except the sj. RH timing is a bit different. Just about as easy as the IM infinite.

[OmegaRyuji]

I was wondering if this GB worked:

Inferno (hits right as opponent comes in) xx HOD/JD

I'm 99% sure I got it to work with HOD before (although I try to use Arma/JD outside of corners just incase it hits. I've had the whole HOD get blocked but the last hit connects once against Cable, and we all know where that leads :mad: )

[Dasrik]

It works unreliably. In any case, the chip damage is probably good anyway.

The most reliable guardbreak I've done with BH is:
jump fierce (time it so BH releases all three demons into the opponent as they come in), land, launch xx inferno xx arma/HOD. Hard to time though.

[ph!Lop!a]

j.lk, j.lk, land, c/f.fp + spiral proj, sj.lp, lk, lp, a/d forward, lk, lk, assist hits, land, s.fk XX (fp) inferno XX HOD.

fun thing with BH AAA. kill your opponent or snap them out, then call him in and the assist will hit them off screen.

i dont know if it breaks their guard or anything..but its just fun.

call me a scrub, but i like to abuse solo BH's semi THC infinite and the THC in general with certain characters.

ex: sent ground, storm variety, bh AAA

rp XX HSF, s.fp XX THC, then while opponent is landing, dash in and launch or HSF or tag in...

or whatever.

[OmegaRyuji]

What are Blackheart's best assists (as in who helps BH on point the most) other than Cyke/Capcom/Sent/Doom (since those guys help just about everyone)?

[Dasrik]

A-Sabretooth is a good assist for BH that I used for awhile. It sweeps the screen which can protect you during superjump trips and while jumpback fiercing, and short short Sabre into launch, inferno xx HOD is too dope.

Other than that, pretty much any projectile assist helps BH out. Anti-airs are okay, but really not necessary.

[LightningStorm]

Storm's Gamma assist is decent for BH too.

It keeps scrubs in the inferno so you don't have to xx into some super. It confuses Magnetos because they almost always super jump after a flying screen move. Call storm sj with BH drop FP demons and Mags is either getting hit with both or falling back blocking both which puts BH in a better situation against Mags than he'd be otherwise.

It's also a good anti-cable... reason: Cables ALWAYS jump with BH you call Storm then SJ before she pops out Cable will follow BH up and either try an AHVB or something and Storm will hit him. If Cable doesn't jump...... well that's a bad Cable you do pretty much what ever you like depending on what assist Cable has.

Storm's assist is ass against Sentinel though, and mediocre at best against Storm.

[OmegaRyuji]

Is Magneto-a any good? Probably not since it doesn't last long enough to safely call Mags + Inferno xx HOD right? And on the topic of Magneto, is it good to try to get him to superjump w/jump back Fierce + rocks/drones/proj/Spiral-y? I usually try that & either sj away w/Fierce, or I'll jump + quick airdash back, leading to either a reset of the first part or assist + Jab Inferno xx HOD (since people tend to be aggressive when they think BH is retreating, you'd be surprised how many run straight into the Jab Inferno where I play)

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
Is Magneto-a any good? Probably not since it doesn't last long enough to safely call Mags + Inferno xx HOD right? And on the topic of Magneto, is it good to try to get him to superjump w/jump back Fierce + rocks/drones/proj/Spiral-y? I usually try that & either sj away w/Fierce, or I'll jump + quick airdash back, leading to either a reset of the first part or assist + Jab Inferno xx HOD (since people tend to be aggressive when they think BH is retreating, you'd be surprised how many run straight into the Jab Inferno where I play) Blackheart/Magneto works, but you can't play him the same. Think a little bit like Cable/Magneto, your goal is to use Magneto to keep the ground covered while dropping shit down from the air so they can't get in. B&B for BH/Mags is low shorts plus Mags then judgement day. BH/Mags shouldn't really have to jump fierce that much - jump jab is enough to stop most ground-level air offense, and calling Mags and sj.rh is the same as staying "Stay the fuck where you are".

[OmegaRyuji]

Originally posted by Dasrik
BH/Mags shouldn't really have to jump fierce that much - jump jab is enough to stop most ground-level air offense, and calling Mags and sj.rh is the same as staying "Stay the fuck where you are".
Actually, the part about jumping Fierce & such was about when going against Magneto:lol:. Still, thanks for the BH/Mag idea.

[Temp3st]

lp. psylocke anti air assist, hk, cancel into HOD, many people i've played against, get caught by it alot.

[2pacnbiggie]

what are some good ways to combo armageddon in on an opponent? i find it a bit harder to use blackheart in mvc2 than in marvel super heroes or msh vs streetfighter

[Thienhavodich]

if ur in or near the corner sk, sk, (capcom) , inferno cancel into armegedon does 80%... also sk, sk , tron (projectile) judgement day is a good combo. Just sk, sk, tron can put a smile on my face. hehe

[shin-ryu-long]

Cool! Finally one of my threads came to good use. Nice strats, everyone:)

[OmegaRyuji]

What are some good ways to follow up a connected HOD in the corner?

[shin-ryu-long]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
What are some good ways to follow up a connected HOD in the corner? Try doing a Standing HK, then HOD again^_^
I think you can do it up to 3 times...I'm not sure, though.

Peace out;)

[OmegaRyuji]

Is the s.rk supposed to hit with the kick or the demons? Also, is it supposed to hit as they fall or OTG? I've tried to mess around with it a bit but I'm having trouble figuring out how get the rk to hit reliably:bluu:

One more thing (for now :D), is c.sk, s.rk, HOD escape-mashable?

[FOBio]

how's blackheart's projectile assist? the one where he does lp thunderbolt thingy. i'm new with him, and so don't know much. i wanted to use him kinda playfully with omega red/silver samuri/blackheart. i wanted to use his assist to sort of stop rushdown...i think i heard it does from somewhere.

[shin-ryu-long]

Originally posted by FOBio
how's blackheart's projectile assist? the one where he does lp thunderbolt thingy. i'm new with him, and so don't know much. i wanted to use him kinda playfully with omega red/silver samuri/blackheart. i wanted to use his assist to sort of stop rushdown...i think i heard it does from somewhere. Yes, his Ground Type Assist is good.
People say that his Anti-Air assist is a lot better, but as a serious Blackheart player myself, i don't think so.

Sure, it comes out a bit slow, it stops rushdown better than the rest of his assists. Use it, it works for me^_^
Peace out;)

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by shin-ryu-long
Try doing a Standing HK, then HOD again^_^
I think you can do it up to 3 times...I'm not sure, though.

Peace out;)

HOD only connects multiple times in the corner if it is the two button HOD. Meaning BH is alone on the team. It does work if he has like 5 supers and other team members but those others will have to have supers that make them leave before BH is done so that BH can do it again.

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
Is the s.rk supposed to hit with the kick or the demons? Also, is it supposed to hit as they fall or OTG? I've tried to mess around with it a bit but I'm having trouble figuring out how get the rk to hit reliably[/I]

s.RH connects everytime and on every character if done at the right time. You do it almost immediatly after the HOD, while they're still way up in the air. They will fall into the demons. If you try and OTG it they'll get hit by the demons but the demons wont stick, and they can roll. Some characters you have to do it faster some slower, depeding on their fall rate.

Originally posted by FOBio
how's blackheart's projectile assist?

BH's Ground assist is decent, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "good." This assist all depends on how you play and the dynamics of your team. If BH isn't your "assist" character then you can use it. It is generally standard to have an anti-air on your team in order to compete with any top tier teams, save the exception of a Mag/Storm/Sent team. And if BH is on the team most people use him primarily for his assist, therefore making him the anti air assist. Anyway, BH's ground can be used if you're pretty much all rush down and it's a decent assist punisher. The biggest problem with it, is that it takes so long and literally ANYBODY can punish him for doing it, making your point character's job of covering him more important and crucial. Then there's the fact that after getting hit with it the other character can roll to safety.

[shin-ryu-long]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


HOD only connects multiple times in the corner if it is the two button HOD. Meaning BH is alone on the team. It does work if he has like 5 supers and other team members but those others will have to have supers that make them leave before BH is done so that BH can do it again.

Last night, i found out you were right, sweetie^_^
I forgot to edit my post a little...Oh well, i should have been giving BH more attention these days, insted of CapCom.
Peace out:)

[OmegaRyuji]

In that case, would the best followup be s.rk, oc.fp /\ air combo?

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
In that case, would the best followup be s.rk, oc.fp /\ air combo? Doesn't work, because of flying screen. You can't get much more than jump short short, low short short after :(

[OmegaRyuji]

Originally posted by Dasrik
Doesn't work, because of flying screen. You can't get much more than jump short short, low short short after :(
I thought I saw a either Alex Valle or Justin Wong do an air combo after a corner HOD in a tourney vid...*goes to find it*

[OmegaRyuji]

Alright, I guess I was imagining things. Why must those flying screen rules apply to Blackheart:rolleyes: ?

[BuddyLee]

I've recently found blackheart super fun... I love having him with a sent drone assit (ground, bah the last one I'm stupid right now) here's my combo...

jp lk, fk (sent assit) air dash lk, fk inferno judgment day (that's that demon super)... ummm I'm feeling a bit retarded right now so I'm not sure if that's all of it... sorry ^_^

also I've nicknamed blackheart my strom chaser... no more running stroms or anyone for that matter when my black heart is behind my sent... oh so fun... people hate me thoug -_-

oh more black heart fun

guile aaa into inferno into jugdement day... pisses people off I find

also I find more fun stuff... when catching someone in the cornor with a JD super... at the height of the blast (final hit) do a standing fk... the demons actually catch.. not much you can do after that though... still fun

and one last thing a question...

is it a glitch? when blackheart is the last on your team... doing the team super after a JD super to connect it... you can do it as many times as you have supers... like the sabertooth "glitch"... some one tell me if I"m stupid

[OmegaRyuji]

If you're talking about the repeated HOD trick, it's not a glitch (at least no more of a glitch than AHVBx3 or Sent's post-HSF combability, in other words it's an oversight). Team supers don't cause flying screen, and moves that normally would cause flying screen (like HOD) give unrollable OTGs. But IIRC it does less damage than a HOD on it's own would do. Damn Capcom sticking it to Blackheart again:(

[ninja sentinel]

ever since I learned how to fly around all the crap that BH does (demons and infernos), my hometown boy Samnang found a nice trick to stop me from flying for free :bluu: it's Dark Thunder XX Heart of Darkness. When he did it for the first time on me, I thought it was flucky :lol: but then he did it many times :( now I have to think twice before flying .. grrrrrrrrr

btw, this trick is somewhat old, but I don't think many people do it.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by ninja sentinel
ever since I learned how to fly around all the crap that BH does (demons and infernos), my hometown boy Samnang found a nice trick to stop me from flying for free :bluu: it's Dark Thunder XX Heart of Darkness. When he did it for the first time on me, I thought it was flucky :lol: but then he did it many times :( now I have to think twice before flying .. grrrrrrrrr

btw, this trick is somewhat old, but I don't think many people do it.

You can roll out of that...........every time.

[Thienhavodich]

hehe yeah old trick , i suggest u only use it every so often cause if u do al the time , u'll prollie get predicted. I'm a new bh user and i found that knowing that is pretty useful. Just not against cables...

[ninja sentinel]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


You can roll out of that...........every time.

what ?? are you sure about that ?

Dasrik : can you confirm this ?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by ninja sentinel


what ?? are you sure about that ?

Dasrik : can you confirm this ?

I guarantee it. Even if you do the dark thunder that goes up the other character falls fast enough that they can roll before the HOD comes out.

[Dasrik]

Not always.

For instance, low short x2 + Commando, fierce DT xx HOD is unrollable. They just have to be high enough.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Dasrik
Not always.

For instance, low short x2 + Commando, fierce DT xx HOD is unrollable. They just have to be high enough.

Well, yeah. but doing all that midas well use the inferno. Against flying sent leading with only the dark thunder.... rollable.

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


Well, yeah. but doing all that midas well use the inferno. Against flying sent leading with only the dark thunder.... rollable. Inferno xx HOD won't combo off of Commando vs. Sentinel.

[=dave=]

would somone mind explaining in simple terms how some of these combos are done, like blackheart's infinite for example? what does the code mean? XX? / \? sj.? i don't understand. please explain. i'd like to learn some additional blackheart skills.

[ponti]

xx cancelling
sj super jump
/\ up

:cool:

[=dave=]

could somone post a link to a combo video that features blackheart combos or at least contains the blackheart infinite combo?

[ninja sentinel]

Originally posted by Dasrik
Not always.

For instance, low short x2 + Commando, fierce DT xx HOD is unrollable. They just have to be high enough.
true, but what if you just do fierce DT XX HOD on flying sentinel, is that rollable ? I don't think so cause I haven't been able to roll out of it.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Dasrik
Inferno xx HOD won't combo off of Commando vs. Sentinel.

:confused: I very rarely miss it. Usually when I do it's my fault because I timed it wrong.

[Deathfist]

How good is BH, Cyclops, Commando?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Deathfist
How good is BH, Cyclops, Commando?

IMO

As a team it's not aweful... but not really good either. The biggest problem I see is that you have two assist characters (Cyc and Capcom). BH/Cyc is good and BH/Cap is good but in the middle I'd recommend changing that person out for pretty much any other top tier character.

On a scale of 1-10 I'd give that specific team a 6 or 7.

It'll give Magneto problems, Storm a few problems but not many, Sent will have some issue but with him it depends on what assist he has. Cable will beat it... but contrary to popular belief Cable will not OWN it, just beat it.

[OmegaRyuji]

What are some of the teams you play with Blackheart? I mostly use BH/Mag/Cyclops or BH/Sent/CC, but I've been looking for something different since I suck with Cyke and Commando.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
What are some of the teams you play with Blackheart? I mostly use BH/Mag/Cyclops or BH/Sent/CC, but I've been looking for something different since I suck with Cyke and Commando.

My tournament team is BH/Storm/Capcom.

I also put BH on the following teams

Sent/BH/Capcom
BH/Storm/Rogue (aaa)
I'll even use BH/Storm/Psylocke

And a friend of mine uses BH/Cable/Doom

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


IMO

As a team it's not aweful... but not really good either. The biggest problem I see is that you have two assist characters (Cyc and Capcom). BH/Cyc is good and BH/Cap is good but in the middle I'd recommend changing that person out for pretty much any other top tier character.

On a scale of 1-10 I'd give that specific team a 6 or 7.

It'll give Magneto problems, Storm a few problems but not many, Sent will have some issue but with him it depends on what assist he has. Cable will beat it... but contrary to popular belief Cable will not OWN it, just beat it.

I partially agree. I'd say 7 though. Cyc is better than people think [and will give Storm more problems than most expect if you know how to use him]. Commando would be amusing to use in this team with all the toys he has. Especially with these assists :D. This is more like a casual play team anyways.

How would you rate the team of...

Doom, BH, Cyclops?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Deathfist
Doom, BH, Cyclops?

This one's more difficult for me to rate, simply because I don't use Cyc at all. I know he's good for BH.

But I'll give it a shot.

I'd rate this one as a team about 7 or 8... BUT this team is hella difficult to defeat top tier with. So it'd depend on the user's ability to use Doom and BH and all the very good assists each has.

I'd say that Sent owns this team, Cable does too. Storm has trouble with it being she can't run and because of Cyc and Doom assist's she can rush either (at least not as well). And Magnus would go about 50/50... If he starts rushing and does so intelligently and well he's going to win... if he messes up though.. he's a gonner.

Being Doom is on point as opposed to BH I think makes this team all the better, not because Doom is better than BH (that's all opinion anyway) but because BH's assist and Doom are great... as well DHCing from Doom to BH is better than BH to Doom.

[Dasrik]

No, it really doesn't work on Sentinel, unless you have them in the corner. Sentinel recovers faster than any other character from juggle hits, so if you do it when you normally have to do it for other characters, he can block it (and if you do it too fast, the tracking misses but that happens for everyone). It's also why the Cyclops infinite doesn't work on Sent.

[Thienhavodich]

thats why u short short capcom inferno xx HoD. I think that works on everyone except a 3-5 meter cable cause you'll take up the ass if u do that to cable.

Someone Give my Team a Rating. Bh/Cable/Tron and Bh/Cable/Capcom.

[OmegaRyuji]

I thought of this combo with BH/Doom and am looking for confermation/denial.

j.sk, j.fk, oc.fp, fp Inferno, HOD, dhc into PA, (OTG) c.sk, c.fk /\ sj.jp, sj.sk, sj.sp, sj.fk, APA, dhc into HOD/Armageddon

The part I'm unsure about is between the first HOD and Doom's launch (I was eating multiple kinds of cheese at the time and my brain still hasn't recovered completely). Any good?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Thienhavodich
Someone Give my Team a Rating. Bh/Cable/Tron and Bh/Cable/Capcom.

BH/Cable/Tron - 8 Good team.. Tron's assist is good for anybody... but Cable and BH, being more distance characters than rush can't use her as effectively. BH's assist is great for Cable but BH is the point man here used for battery and building super for cable. Nice thing is no one really owns this team because trons assist prevents rush counter into AHVB prevents almost everything else and Cable's aaa actually isn't bad for BH

BH/Cable/Capcom - 9

Simple variation of team scrub. Cable/Capcom makes just about any team a 9. I believe Storm with certain assists counters this but if played well can give even her problems. Sent loses to this, Mags if rushed right wins but IMO Mags is too random and this team is too solid to consistently lose to Mags... I'd give it a 60-40 ratio against mags. Another Cable... well... you know what happens here..... Long boring matches with Cable vs Cable.

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


This one's more difficult for me to rate, simply because I don't use Cyc at all. I know he's good for BH.

But I'll give it a shot.

I'd rate this one as a team about 7 or 8... BUT this team is hella difficult to defeat top tier with. So it'd depend on the user's ability to use Doom and BH and all the very good assists each has.

I'd say that Sent owns this team, Cable does too. Storm has trouble with it being she can't run and because of Cyc and Doom assist's she can rush either (at least not as well). And Magnus would go about 50/50... If he starts rushing and does so intelligently and well he's going to win... if he messes up though.. he's a gonner.

Being Doom is on point as opposed to BH I think makes this team all the better, not because Doom is better than BH (that's all opinion anyway) but because BH's assist and Doom are great... as well DHCing from Doom to BH is better than BH to Doom.

I virtually agree with you on this one. I disagree with the level of ownage Cable would dish out on the team due to the fact that Cable can't get up there. Unless he's packing Cammy or Commando he isn't getting Doom down. And if Doom decides he wants to move in and physically bash Cable's face in instead of rain shit, this can turn the tide. It depends on the assists Cable walks in with and if Doom wants and manages to get his hands on Cable or not. I think that Cable can and probably will beat it, but not for free. Your rating of 7 is pretty accurate. For me? 8 [Cyc then BH are probably my best 2 characters].

How would you [and everyone else for that matter] rate...

Storm, BH, Cyc

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Deathfist
Storm, BH, Cyc

I'm biased on that one... it's almost exactly like my team of BH/Storm/Capcom

I'd rate it a 10 :D but in all honesty... probably a 9. Because to me pretty much the only 10 teams in the game are

Sent/Cable/Capcom, MSP, MST, Mag/Sent/Psy, Mag/Storm/Sent, Storm/Sent/aaa

But an analysis. Storm could beat that team but obviously being stalemated by having to fight herself. Mags would die, Cable would die, Sent would win more often than not, but not a hard core owning.


---Also... when I'm talking about what characters beat and lose to various teams I always assume that character is toting an assist that they work very well with. So I assume basically that character and a best case scenario vs the team in question. :)

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


I'm biased on that one... it's almost exactly like my team of BH/Storm/Capcom

I'd rate it a 10 :D but in all honesty... probably a 9. Because to me pretty much the only 10 teams in the game are

Sent/Cable/Capcom, MSP, MST, Mag/Sent/Psy, Mag/Storm/Sent, Storm/Sent/aaa

But an analysis. Storm could beat that team but obviously being stalemated by having to fight herself. Mags would die, Cable would die, Sent would win more often than not, but not a hard core owning.


---Also... when I'm talking about what characters beat and lose to various teams I always assume that character is toting an assist that they work very well with. So I assume basically that character and a best case scenario vs the team in question. :)

Fair enough.

How do you think that Cable, BH, Cyc fares? I know you rated BH, Cable, Cap which is somewhat similar to it.

Overall [not necessarily vs each other although you can do that too], which team is better? [IMO it's Cable, BH, Cyc]. I'm interested in your and everyone elses feedback on this. It seems better from Cable's perspective IMO...].

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Deathfist


Fair enough.

How do you think that Cable, BH, Cyc fares? I know you rated BH, Cable, Cap which is somewhat similar to it.

Overall [not necessarily vs each other although you can do that too], which team is better? [IMO it's Cable, BH, Cyc]. I'm interested in your and everyone elses feedback on this. It seems better from Cable's perspective IMO...].

I personally am partial to CapCom... but then again I don't use either Cyc or Cable - ever.

I agree with you from an objective standpoint.. that Cyc would be overall better than Capcom in most cases (especially for that team). Simply because Cyc is a much better character in general than Capcom. And if he gets snapped in he's gonna fare better than CapCom anyday.

The one thing Capcom has going for him as assist is the fact that it creates that wall and goes clear to the top of the screen instantly.

On a number scale I'd say it'd be a 9 too. Ranking 27,720 teams on a scale of 1 to 10 kinda puts a lot of teams on the same ranking. :)

[Thienhavodich]

Originally posted by Deathfist


Fair enough.

How do you think that Cable, BH, Cyc fares? I know you rated BH, Cable, Cap which is somewhat similar to it.

Overall [not necessarily vs each other although you can do that too], which team is better? [IMO it's Cable, BH, Cyc]. I'm interested in your and everyone elses feedback on this. It seems better from Cable's perspective IMO...].

Cable/Bh/Cyc Vs Cable/Bh/Cap

imo cable/bh/cap would do better although the bh/cyc infinite is pretty good its also mashable unless u do it enough so the glich catches on. And when cyclops hits Cable is owning.

But aaa wise cap will knock out cyc most of the time doing so cable can shoot cyclops with his ass in the air if u don't protect him right.

About 3 years ago 4 of the top players of Austin played Bh/cable/cyc untill one chose to choose capcom instead and from then on no one has came back to cyc.

Bh/storm/cyc would do better i think .

[Dasrik]

It depends in the order you play it in.

Cable/BH/Commando > Cable/BH/Cyclops
BH/Cable/Cyclops > BH/Cable/Commando

BH/Commando can annoy people but, facts are facts, coming out of the gate no one is really scared of Blackheart, especially if they have Cable on the side. BH/Cyclops, on the other hand, can pin for days, and because of that it generally doesn't matter if you get a clean hit or not, you are building oodles of meter which allows you to use it to chip more liberally. Not to mention if BH/Cyke scores a clean hit, they lose a character. (Infinite into tag into shooty shoot shoot).

Cable/BH/Commando, on the other hand, is a way better turtle team vs. certain other teams (Sent/Cable/Commando comes to mind) as long as you: a) play your cards right, b) don't take too many hits, and c) are playing someone who doesn't know how to be offensive. It's Team Anti-Scrub in the strictest sense of the word (ie. it only counters scrubs who use Team Scrub). You just wall up and if you get to hit something (assist usually), just hit it with Commando. Cyclops is a more offensive assist that doesn't really scare anyone into not calling assists and superjumping their way to you.

[shin-ryu-long]

Originally posted by Deathfist
How good is BH, Cyclops, Commando? Cool...That's my team! And people used to diss me for using it^_^ But it's a 7/10:)


And good stuff, guys, keep it up:)

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
What are some of the teams you play with Blackheart? I mostly use BH/Mag/Cyclops or BH/Sent/CC, but I've been looking for something different since I suck with Cyke and Commando.

I like BH/Sent... I play Sent/BH/guile. It's anti rush down and a cable killing team... at least for me it's been that way. And it gives flyin storms some odd issues and allows for sent to covor all kinds of fun ground on them lil' people.

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by BuddyLee


I like BH/Sent... I play Sent/BH/guile. It's anti rush down and a cable killing team... at least for me it's been that way. And it gives flyin storms some odd issues and allows for sent to covor all kinds of fun ground on them lil' people.

That's a modified Team Watts. Slightly different angled AA that's harder to fool than Commando, and Guile's slightly stronger vs Cable than Commando is IMO [meaning it's holes are way smaller]

VS other Sentinels, how good would this team be?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by BuddyLee
I like BH/Sent... I play Sent/BH/guile. It's anti rush down and a cable killing team... at least for me it's been that way. And it gives flyin storms some odd issues and allows for sent to covor all kinds of fun ground on them lil' people.

Dude, I'm sorry but Cable should tear that team apart. Cable (on paper) OWNS BH and Sentinel and the guile assist isn't going to stop cable from doing anything, if anything guile's assist will get murdered on assist.

Again I should reiterate this is a Cable with a good assist and of equal skill level to the Bh/sent/guile player.

Sentinel would probably lose to this team simply because of the varying anti airs on the team and his in ability to fly due to Guile. Storm would have issues also because of Guile.. but Sent needs to be on point to make that work out. And Magneto... well... whatever. :D

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


Dude, I'm sorry but Cable should tear that team apart. Cable (on paper) OWNS BH and Sentinel and the guile assist isn't going to stop cable from doing anything, if anything guile's assist will get murdered on assist.

Again I should reiterate this is a Cable with a good assist and of equal skill level to the Bh/sent/guile player.

Sentinel would probably lose to this team simply because of the varying anti airs on the team and his in ability to fly due to Guile. Storm would have issues also because of Guile.. but Sent needs to be on point to make that work out. And Magneto... well... whatever. :D

Guile would have the best chance in this team vs Cable of the 3 members [aside maybe from Sent]. He'd have to be the one that fights Cable [and if he screws up your AA is done].

I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you. Still, how would you out of 10 rate this team? [IMO it's probably around a 7].

Wierd things tend to happen on point sometimes and perhaps he has ways of manipulating the match vs Cable that we are unaware of. This is the weakness of people that restrict themselves soley to top tier end up with in that they leave this ability underdeveloped. It also kills the community.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Deathfist
I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you. Still, how would you out of 10 rate this team? [IMO it's probably around a 7].

Probably around a 6... And that high only because Sentinel is on the team. This simply because there are better options than Guile... like: Cammy, Capcom, Cyclops, even Psylocke... And all of those characters vs Cable are better than Guile both on point and on assist. Hell, I'd even venture to say possibly even Tron or Doom - but don't quote me on those two. :p

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


Probably around a 6... And that high only because Sentinel is on the team. This simply because there are better options than Guile... like: Cammy, Capcom, Cyclops, even Psylocke... And all of those characters vs Cable are better than Guile both on point and on assist. Hell, I'd even venture to say possibly even Tron or Doom - but don't quote me on those two. :p

Thinking back, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I was thinking 6 on the low end. I guess it'd really be 6/10 then 6.5 on the high end.

How would you [and everyone else] rate...

Mags, BH, Cyclops

There's a reason why I'm posting so many teams BTW...
1]It may stimulate the imagination of players
2]It may stop me and others from making errors they shouldn't
3]It keeps the thread interesting as polite rebuttals will occur [which is what I'm looking for].

So far this is one of the best threads I've seen recently.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Deathfist
Mags, BH, Cyclops

I personally think this team kinda sucks. BUT! I have seen someone use this team (a guy from Canada I believe) he came to MWC and this was his team (in that order). And that team is actually surprisingly good. Mags can us Cyke's assist great as can BH but Mags can also use BH's assist better than one would think he could. Mag's can generally do the "unmashable tempest" combo off of anybody's assist, but off of BH's seeing it done is really quite nice!

So on paper this team does suck and would probably get like a 5 out of me... but seeing it in real life I give it a 7.

The biggest problem I see with it is that this team owns no one. And all of top tier beat it pretty thoroughly.

[OmegaRyuji]

Is there any love for Mag/Sent/BH?

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


I personally think this team kinda sucks. BUT! I have seen someone use this team (a guy from Canada I believe) he came to MWC and this was his team (in that order). And that team is actually surprisingly good. Mags can us Cyke's assist great as can BH but Mags can also use BH's assist better than one would think he could. Mag's can generally do the "unmashable tempest" combo off of anybody's assist, but off of BH's seeing it done is really quite nice!

So on paper this team does suck and would probably get like a 5 out of me... but seeing it in real life I give it a 7.

The biggest problem I see with it is that this team owns no one. And all of top tier beat it pretty thoroughly.

1]That player was Tao Xie from Vancouver BC [ATM SpiderTAO]
2]That unmashable is retardedly easy. Launch + BH, hp somewhat late in sj, slight pause, Tempest. Hold forwards throughout the entire air series. That's how I do it anyways.
3]That unmashable is retardedly powerful.
If you do it this way you can do 43 hits and upto 104 damage.
4]That unmashable is easy to combo off of.
lp,lk,mp,mk, airdash, lp,lk,mp,mk, Tempest [whiffed] DHC Armageddon. This if all goes just right is a kill combo BTW...
4]I agree 100 with your ranking. The only reason I know this is because I was so highly successful with it when I tried it the first time [despite the fact I couldn't use Magneto very well...] that it spawned me BH, Storm, Cyc.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
Is there any love for Mag/Sent/BH?

This one's tough for me to rate.. Hell, I'll be honest. Any team with Magneto on it is tough for me to rate. Magneto's just so random that at any given moment.... he could own or be owned by anybody. So I'm tempted to give this a not so good rating due to the fact that Mags doesn't have a good anti air here. Good meaning (Cyc,Psy,Cammy, or even Capcom or Tron).

Then there's the fact that I truly believe that Sent on any team with most assists in the game give the team an automatic 6 at least.

So... let's go with how they fare against top tier.

Against Storm: Storm owns this. BH's assist is too slow to prevent rush down and Sent''s assist is only of minor issue. Storm can run a bit, would only run into opposition with Sent w/ BH assist.

Against Mags... Mags would beat himself on that team then die to Sent/BH

Cable... Good ole' Cable.... Well... here's where randomness comes into play. Mags should take care of Cable if he mixes up the use of Sent and BH assists. But Mag's is random enough that he might just get one of Sent or BH killed on Assist all the while taking heavy damage himself. I call this a stale mate match... probably more in Mag's favor.

Against Sent. Sent wins.

So losing to Sent and Storm, Stalemating Cable, and beating Mag... I'd give it about a 6.

*Others... feel free to disagree with this, but I don't like that particular team at all.

[OmegaRyuji]

Thanks for the rate. But since you mentioned Sent/BH...:evil:
I've always considered Blackheart to be a trapper since he can control the air quite well (given the priority on (s)j.jp and (s)j.sk, the space control and pinning of (s)j.fp) and then there are his specials and supers that each practically seal off a section of the screen. And, of course, the infamously icy Inferno assist. So, any traps involving Blackheart that anyone wants to share? The only trap I use is that old Sent/BH (c.fp and sk drones while calling BH, dash back as needed) and I'm looking to expand my offensive turtling power:lol:

[Thienhavodich]

gosh sorry i cant type in technical terms as u. but Cable/Bh Trap cand be done by calling out bh aaa, and jumping up gernade , gun, beam. only works on a few people and its gotta be consistant.

or the doom/bh trap Doom doing his daily photons and bh assist. i hate this one alot. cause i don't rush down and once this team is rushed down by anything it loses is value really quick.

Mag/sent/Bh?

hmm depends on which assist for sent and in which order. i would play Bh/sent/mag... but thats only cause my Mag sucks. Dunno how to rate it but i'll give it a 6 for having mag/sent

Anyone ever tried Mag/Bh/Cyc? its a double infinite team hehe.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Thienhavodich
Anyone ever tried Mag/Bh/Cyc? its a double infinite team hehe.

Scroll up... we've rated that team recently.

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by Thienhavodich
Anyone ever tried Mag/Bh/Cyc? its a double infinite team hehe.

Actually, I've tried that team. It isn't a double infinite team. It's a TRIPLE infinite team. It was also used by ATM Spider Tao. You need to scroll up to see it's rating.

I used it about 10 times [vs players]. Only lost once [Controller wouldn't let me triangle jump and I can only do basic Magneto...].

I listed some scary shit in the above post I made earlier.

:evil:

[OmegaRyuji]

I've been messing around a bit with BH/Doom/IM-b (another triple infinite team :D ) and was wondering what you thought of it. Also, would it be better to start BH or Doom?

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
I've been messing around a bit with BH/Doom/IM-b (another triple infinite team :D ) and was wondering what you thought of it. Also, would it be better to start BH or Doom?

I myself admit that I'm not very good with IM. I'll assume you are.
Start Doom, build 2-3 levels by running, and try to land a frame cancell DHC into IM for free damage. Then run for the rest of the match. If he approaches and he MUST if he's behind, set him up and use the IM 300% [Triple infinite]. People do lots of stupid things if they fall behind trying to get their lead back sometimes.

Another option would be to start IM and see how well you do. This team is well equipped for him. It's gonna have Sentinel problems [what team doesen't :) ] though.

If you want a triple infinite team, try BH, IM, Cyc. All 3 guys can infinite mid-screen while Doom can only infinite in corners. Cyc sets it up too [Doom's rocks are unstable]. One hit and your entire game goes down the shitter.

Lightning storm, how would you rate these 2 teams?
Doom, IM, BH [best assist scheme, his team]
BH, IM, Cyc

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
I've been messing around a bit with BH/Doom/IM-b (another triple infinite team :D ) and was wondering what you thought of it. Also, would it be better to start BH or Doom?

Neither, start Iron Man.

Originally posted by Deathfist
Lightning storm, how would you rate these 2 teams?
Doom, IM, BH [best assist scheme, his team]
BH, IM, Cyc

Doom,IM,BH - I'd be better with this team in a different order. ie. IM/BH/Doom. Because IM is better on point than both Doom and BH, Doom and BH offer up better assists for IM than does IM for either of the two of them. Also BH is ass on a team by himself, so making him last is not ideal. But this order does have it's advantages.... that being the DHC into IM as you mentioned. This team (in any order) gets pretty much owned by all of the big four. Sent being the only one to have issues with them... that being because he'd have to dodge a LOT of shit all the time.

So I'd have to give it a 5. In the order of IM/BH/Doom I'd give it a high 5... around 5.5 or 5.75.

BH/IM/Cyc - another team I think should have IM first. This too gets a 5 because we've sacraficed a better character (Doom) for Cyclops, but in turn got a better assist out of Cyc. Like the first team here, the big 4 own them. Only instead of Sent, now it's Magneto who'd have issue because he'd have to play a bit more conservative worrying about if/when Cyc is popping out on screen to set up IM or BH infintes.

[OmegaRyuji]

Actually, I only said it was a triple infinite team because you mentioned that about Mag/BH/Cyc. My Doom is much better than my Cyclops and setting up Ironman's infinite solo is simple enough. The reasons I had Ironman in the last spot were because to help with rushdown Sent (Ironman's AAA takes away a good deal of flying space), he's the best for making a comeback (I don't really like the idea of chipping 3 characters to death with Blackheart), and his assist can set up Blackheart's infinite (although much harder than with Cyclops).

[LightningStorm]

I guess I'll post to have folks rate my primary team.

BH/Storm(gamma)/Capcom

This is my tournament team, and I do quite well with them. But don't worry about hurting my feelings for rating it lower than I'd like to hear... I don't have any delusions of grandeur about it.. I know it could be better. :D But I just happen to be good with it. :)

[Thienhavodich]

Austin is a blackheart country and thiers 1 player that uses that team, it can counter some cable teams if used right. and dhc out to storm isn't a weak move when u miss ur inferno and do HoD... But if it was someone starting cable first killin bh easily and guardbreak, n killing storm = u lose. I guess u can say it all depends on teh player but over all this team gets a 8 from me but thats cause i'm a cable whore.

[Neo Odin]

I asked Jamal what type of team would be good with
blackheart, mind you that I only play with characters I like...

So I threw out some stuff and ,well I gotta always play
with ironman so....

Blackheart/Ironman/Cammy/ all anti air....

He said the team sounded okay, I asked him cause he
plays blackheart....

Then again maybe I should have asked Soo Mighty,
but he doesnt play BH at least I dont think so.....

So basically im asking for a rating... Thanks:)

[sHiNeRiK]

Is Blackheart/Cable/Cyclops any good?

[Thienhavodich]

Very good team, just don't start bh vs cable....

[ninja sentinel]

LightningStorm :

sorry for the late post, but yeah .. you were right :o you can roll out of the thingy I mentioned a few weeks ago and fuck BH up :p

I don't know, but I don't think BH can do anything to harm Sentinel unless he gets him in the corner.

[LightningStorm]

Neo Odin: BH/IM/Cammy - good team, but by no means is that one of BH's best teams. Cammy provides for good assist for BH but for Iron Man Cammy really only provides the "get off of me" assist. BH can use IM's assist fairly well (I perfected someone with IM assist using BH once :eek: (and no, it wasn't a scrub.. it wasn't JWong obviously, but not a scrub)) I'd rate this team a 6, because none of the three characters are nearly as high in tiering as they once were, and this team dies a brutal death to Storm and Sentinel.

sHiNeRiK: BH/Cable/Cyc - This team is healthy, it's also a damage-whoring team. Cyc is about the best assist posisble for both BH and Cable so that makes it good. But on paper this team gets rushed for free. In reality only Storm and Sentinel can rush it for free. Magneto would die to it. Against Cable, if you know how to use BH then you beat Cable. Contrary to popular belief BH is not owned by Cable, the match is simply difficult not impossible.

Thienhavodich: I'd only agree with this statement if the Bh player relied too heavily on Inferno xx HOD and sj.FK. Otherwise, the team of BH/Cable/Cyc's best chance against Cable is to put BH on point.

ninja sentinel: BH can do things to Sent, but some requirements must be met.... 1. BH MUST have a good AAA (Cammy, Cyclops, Capcom, Ken). 2. BH must not be in the corner, and when he is don't be afraid to use his dash. At the same time, don't go abusing his dash. BH's main defense on Sent is J and SJ FP. Alternate this up with the FK and a TON of sj.lk. BH's LK in the air (his lp too but I like the kick better) beats everything of Sent's in the air, because it's quick and its priority is insane. But it has the problem of being light punches so Sent isn't going to be much more than slightly annoyed by it. But landing these tiny punches and kicks at least offers up BH the ability to keep control of the match and get Sent out of the air and out of fly mode. BH's primary goal is to catch Sent in the SJ demon infinite and snap him out or keep him grounded and chip him to death with either Inferno xx HOD or Inferno xx JD. HOD is preferable but if the Sent you are playing against knows how to guard cancel then JD is best.

[Thienhavodich]

hey any hopes for a Sent/cable/Bh or Bh/cable / sent and which sent assist would be best ?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Thienhavodich
hey any hopes for a Sent/cable/Bh or Bh/cable / sent and which sent assist would be best ?

Good teams. I'll give them a 7.

As for which team is better, really depends on the player's ability to use Sent or Cable. If Sent is the better character, then I'd say use Sent/Cable/BH. Sent is a proven point character, coupled with BH and Cable's assists folks have difficulty running from him, and when he's in fly mode those two assists (namely BH's) really prevent people from doing too much. As well Sent can build meter for Cable.

If Cable is the primary skill on the team, I'd say use BH first this way BH can be used as meter builder for Cable and use of Sent's assist can be for stopping rush down. This along with Cable's anti air will give BH the breathing room he needs to waste time and get the meter up.

In general these are good teams, but they get rushed down for free by any character that can rush. While Sent's assist does help to prevent the rush, against a good rush down, it really isn't going to prevent anything.

There's some slight trapping abilities with Cable/Sent and Cable/BH, and Sent/BH. But everyone knows how to get out of those now.

I was going to rate this an 8, but after thinking about it, it's only on paper that this team is somewhat good. In reality this combination of characters doesn't beat any of the Big 4.

[Thienhavodich]

Yeah its just a thought cause i saw it almost win first twice last year but that was the only 2 times this team has ever been posted. I've tried different ways to play this team gennerally trying to Run with Bh and build meter for cable. (sent with ground assist) it was doing ok untill they know ur game. :(

But then again i've been puting my blackheart teams aside for a while i need to learn how to play other characters, =T. Btw are u gonna be at N-Cubed? Maybe we can get a couple of casuals in. Ur only like an hr away might as well right?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Thienhavodich
Yeah its just a thought cause i saw it almost win first twice last year but that was the only 2 times this team has ever been posted. I've tried different ways to play this team gennerally trying to Run with Bh and build meter for cable. (sent with ground assist) it was doing ok untill they know ur game. :(

But then again i've been puting my blackheart teams aside for a while i need to learn how to play other characters, =T. Btw are u gonna be at N-Cubed? Maybe we can get a couple of casuals in. Ur only like an hr away might as well right?

Yep, I'll be at N-Cubed! Omaha is 2 hrs from here.. but I'm goin! I'm down for some casual matches and always down for meeting other cool players and especially those who play BH. :cool:

[Thienhavodich]

Yup, and of coarse u'll be meeting my friend too its a little shaky but i would prollie say he has the best blackheart in Texas and one of the best cables. So hopefully u can school him so i can have something to laugh about, and he would put his cocky blackheart aside knowing someones blackheart is better than his.

Oh don't have much high hopes vs me as a good player though, i'm still a scrub, a bad one at that but i'll play.

[nightlight12121]

Originally posted by wassup
k thanks

someone posted this combo somewhere it's really really cool but maybe not practical -

s.lk, s.hk, TK sj.[Judgement Day, lk, mk], land, s.lk + Cyclops-AAA, s.mk XX sj., sj.[hk XX ad/b hk], land, Fierce Inferno, c.lk (OTG), s.mp XX Fierce Inferno XX Heart of Darkness, s.hk (juggle), j.[lk, mk], land, hp throw

oh yeah a more practical air combo would probably be oc.hp, sj., sj.[lp, lk, mp, ad/f, lp, lk, mp, pause, hp throw] THIS IS S BUNCH OF BULL SHIT!:lame: :lame: :lame: :lame:

[luigi]

What can a good BH do against Cable (like in a teamscrub starter)?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by luigi
What can a good BH do against Cable (like in a teamscrub starter)?

BH vs team scrub?
Or BH/Cable/Capcom vs Team Scrub?


In either case....

BH vs Team Scrub: In this case BH will need either Capcom or Cyclops's assist. Depending on who your middle character is you may even be able to get away with Doom assist to better handle their Capcom assist. But BH in this case against Cable on point will need to be all about the baiting and psyching out of the Cable player -- Yes this will be a long fought match. And, while BH is no rush character, you will need to stay on Cable as best he can. Staying on Cable with well placed blocks will bait the Capcom assist guaranteed. Everyone (especially Cable players) thinks Capcom assist owns BH so they are going to abuse him with the thought of "if BH attacks him Cable will punish him." Well instead of using BH to attack Capcom use your Capcom to attack Capcom. The idea here is not to kill Capcom per se, but to hurt him enough to prevent Cable from abusing him so much. Cable has little offense in this match, his purpose is to try to catch BH's mistake and AHVB him. Don't let this happen. How? You ask? Well since BH should be near Cable at all times poking with light kicks and/or punches and blocking a lot of Capcom Assists you will be free to call your Capcom at close range. Doing this will either hit a non-blocking Cable or block stun him long enough for BH to get in the air. When in the air you have to decide "Did you beat Cable off the ground?" If so drop some FK demons and immediately air dash and do not drop any more demons. "Did you hit Cable with the assist?" If you did you shouldn't have jumped... if Cable's in the corner Inferno xx HOD (duh). If Cable's not in the corner then you need to decide if you have a good DHC and use Inferno xx super xx DHC. If you don't have a good DHC shame on you... in this case you need to ascertain the Cable players skill and decide to either Inferno xx HOD (most damaging, but against Cable most dangerous) or Inferno xx Armegeddon (most random, can be dangerous), Inferno xx Judgement Day (most safe, least damaging), Inferno xx nothing (umm.. don't do this), or jump up with him and get an air combo off. Jumping in general against Cable is some risky shit, but not if you do it right. BH should be jumping against Cable all the time. But BH should not be abusing either set of Demons. You need to alternate dropping Demons with simply jumping and doing nothing. Sometime jump with demons, sometimes jump then throw demons, sometimes jump and simply airdash, other times just jump then land. Eventually the Cable player will fuck up and do an AHVB at Super jump level and BH won't be up there, other times he'll do it and BH will block it. Jumping with Demons is the most dangerous because you will be pressing the button way before you know if Cable jumped or not. Your goal is to never be on the same level as Cable, and if you are that your assist isn't there and the BH is blocking at the very least. Another thing you need to be making sure of is that if you call Capcom or Cyclops out that BH can get off the ground safely without running into the magic bullet. If Cable AHVB's that assist and BH is over him you need to be doing Air Judgement Day. If you're good at determining when the Cable player is going to jump and when he isn't (and any good BH player needs to be able to read his opponent) then you can catch the unwary Cable in sj.FK demons and he'll be stuck in the infinite. When in infinite DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT continue it. Cable will be built up WAY too many super bars and the infinite likely will not kill him. What you do is SNAP HIM OUT! Get Capcom on screen. If you have done things correctly then Capcom should at this point have half energy at best, now he won't be able to get all that back while Cable or Sent stalls and both Cable and Sent will be more reserved about using his assist so much. As well hopefully you'll have another super so you can at least stall Capcom on screen a while and take away more of his energy or immediately snapout Sent or Cable if they randomly pop back on screen.

And as for BH/Cable/Capcom vs Team Scrub... pretty much the same as before except now you have another huge advantage of counter into AHVB... but you do lose the nice DHC capabilities that Storm, Sent, or IM would give you.

[Thienhavodich]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


BH vs team scrub?
Or BH/Cable/Capcom vs Team Scrub?


In either case....

BH vs Team Scrub: In this case BH will need either Capcom or Cyclops's assist. Depending on who your middle character is you may even be able to get away with Doom assist to better handle their Capcom assist. But BH in this case against Cable on point will need to be all about the baiting and psyching out of the Cable player -- Yes this will be a long fought match. And, while BH is no rush character, you will need to stay on Cable as best he can. Staying on Cable with well placed blocks will bait the Capcom assist guaranteed. Everyone (especially Cable players) thinks Capcom assist owns BH so they are going to abuse him with the thought of "if BH attacks him Cable will punish him." Well instead of using BH to attack Capcom use your Capcom to attack Capcom. The idea here is not to kill Capcom per se, but to hurt him enough to prevent Cable from abusing him so much. Cable has little offense in this match, his purpose is to try to catch BH's mistake and AHVB him. Don't let this happen. How? You ask? Well since BH should be near Cable at all times poking with light kicks and/or punches and blocking a lot of Capcom Assists you will be free to call your Capcom at close range. Doing this will either hit a non-blocking Cable or block stun him long enough for BH to get in the air. When in the air you have to decide "Did you beat Cable off the ground?" If so drop some FK demons and immediately air dash and do not drop any more demons. "Did you hit Cable with the assist?" If you did you shouldn't have jumped... if Cable's in the corner Inferno xx HOD (duh). If Cable's not in the corner then you need to decide if you have a good DHC and use Inferno xx super xx DHC. If you don't have a good DHC shame on you... in this case you need to ascertain the Cable players skill and decide to either Inferno xx HOD (most damaging, but against Cable most dangerous) or Inferno xx Armegeddon (most random, can be dangerous), Inferno xx Judgement Day (most safe, least damaging), Inferno xx nothing (umm.. don't do this), or jump up with him and get an air combo off. Jumping in general against Cable is some risky shit, but not if you do it right. BH should be jumping against Cable all the time. But BH should not be abusing either set of Demons. You need to alternate dropping Demons with simply jumping and doing nothing. Sometime jump with demons, sometimes jump then throw demons, sometimes jump and simply airdash, other times just jump then land. Eventually the Cable player will fuck up and do an AHVB at Super jump level and BH won't be up there, other times he'll do it and BH will block it. Jumping with Demons is the most dangerous because you will be pressing the button way before you know if Cable jumped or not. Your goal is to never be on the same level as Cable, and if you are that your assist isn't there and the BH is blocking at the very least. Another thing you need to be making sure of is that if you call Capcom or Cyclops out that BH can get off the ground safely without running into the magic bullet. If Cable AHVB's that assist and BH is over him you need to be doing Air Judgement Day. If you're good at determining when the Cable player is going to jump and when he isn't (and any good BH player needs to be able to read his opponent) then you can catch the unwary Cable in sj.FK demons and he'll be stuck in the infinite. When in infinite DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT continue it. Cable will be built up WAY too many super bars and the infinite likely will not kill him. What you do is SNAP HIM OUT! Get Capcom on screen. If you have done things correctly then Capcom should at this point have half energy at best, now he won't be able to get all that back while Cable or Sent stalls and both Cable and Sent will be more reserved about using his assist so much. As well hopefully you'll have another super so you can at least stall Capcom on screen a while and take away more of his energy or immediately snapout Sent or Cable if they randomly pop back on screen.

And as for BH/Cable/Capcom vs Team Scrub... pretty much the same as before except now you have another huge advantage of counter into AHVB... but you do lose the nice DHC capabilities that Storm, Sent, or IM would give you.

Wow u should write Blackhearts life story... heh.:lol: . Anyhow thats some good stuff, but when u talk about blackheart infinite do u talk about the with or w/o assist.

And now that u mention it. BH/Ironman/cap isn't a bad group either. what other aaa would be good with this group?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Thienhavodich
Wow u should write Blackhearts life story... heh.:lol: . Anyhow thats some good stuff, but when u talk about blackheart infinite do u talk about the with or w/o assist.

And now that u mention it. BH/Ironman/cap isn't a bad group either. what other aaa would be good with this group?

The infinite I'm speaking of is the bouncing demon infinite. Which method depends on Capcom or Cyclops assist. Cyclops assist and you can do it with normal jumps. Capcom's assist would require doing super jumps. Or if you simply catch them without assist then likely you'd be doing super jumps.

Yeah BH/IM/Cap isn't bad, but I think I'm biased against IM. To me IM would be better w/o BH and BH would be better w/o IM. IM does offer a decent DHC though.

Good AAA's for BH:

Capcom, Cyclops, Cammy << These are the best.
Sonson, Captain America, Rogue << Next Best
Psylocke, Colossus, Cable << These are third because it's difficult to time the usage of these and it's easy to punish them when the do come out.

Now let me explain why Rogue is in the "Next Best" section. Rogue's AAA is deceptive. It seems to have at least one maybe two invincibility frames and as such catches rushing Magnetos and Storms a lot. It's slow enough and holds them for long enough for BH to get his bearings and do what he needs to do to capitalize. It's also one of the more damaging aaa's in the game.

[StiltMan]

I've been using Sent/Cable/BH for just shy of two years, to a point that many people call it "Team StiltMan" in the northwest. IMO, Sent-A is the better assist to work with. It's not as vulnerable to the rush as people think it is; Sentinel can protect himself from the rush quite well, Cable/Sent-A can protect itself from the rush, and BH himself has good enough pokes and space control that he shouldn't be getting rushed too often either. BH/Sent/Commando is a bit stronger against the rush, but Sent-A/Cable/BH is considerably stronger against turtles. Cable and BH both like having Sent-A to punish assists, set things up, and to combo stuff too much for me to ever consider going back to Sent-Y for that team. If I've got Team Scrub or Team Watts, I'll go with Sent-Y... for Sent/Cable/BH, Sent-A is about the only way to go.

BH/Cable/Commando is also a team I've used for a while, usually as a counter to Team Scrub. When I use this, I always start Cable, I jump around as much as possible. I don't call BH unless it's a fairly clear shot, and I never call Commando first unless I've got a flying Sentinel directly overhead. If they start Sentinel it can get a little nerve-wracking, but if you keep on the move and don't ever give him a moving target then there generally isn't a good way that Sentinel can attack you without putting either himself or Commando in harm's way. If Cable runs enough on this team Sentinel's only real way of chasing him down is to try to keep him on the ground with Commando, which (if you don't get hit) usually gets their Commando killed because yours pounds on it all day and eventually Cable can finish him off without using much meter. If they start Cable, then you have to stare him down -- whoever wins that Cable fight will usually get an OCV for the match. Cable/BH/Commando tends to mess up most opposing Cables, though, because the book on fighting Cable typically says that you need to play a vertical game of super jumping to stay out of the other's AHVB reach, and BH's assist disrupts that so thoroughly that the vast majority of Cable players simply don't know what to do when you take it away from them. Sentinel's drones are not going to throw this off too often unless the other Cable more or less tries to rush you down with it, in which case you run and create openings however you can. Cable/BH/Commando, if you play it very cool and very passive, give them as few attack angles that you have to block as possible and let it come to you, will very frequently OCV a Team Scrub player. However, you have to play it really, really passive for it to work; if you try to get too aggressive with it, Team Scrub can seize the advantage much more easily.

BH/Cable/Commando does not usually beat Magneto under any circumstances, which is why I only use this team as a counter to Team Scrub. BH has nothing but AAAs, demons, and pokes to keep Magneto away, and that just doesn't work on a good Magneto; you need both an AAA and a decent projectile assist to fight Magneto with BH effectively. BH/Sent/Commando, for instance, works far better on Magneto than BH/Cable/Commando does.

BH against Cable pretty much requires that you have Commando around and stay in his face as much as possible. You either have to psyche him out in a mind game or you're basically hosed. Very few BH players realize that BH can do much against Cable -- his pokes are considerably superior and he's a lot more mobile than Cable is, so this match is by no means free. Unfortunately, most BHs don't know much more than "throw demons and inferno/HOD". That kind of BH will indeed lose to Cable for free. A more patient one that stays in Cable's face and threatens him constantly with Commando breathing down his neck can get a lot farther.

For game film, the prototype BH player that you should start from to see how it's done was, and still is, Alex Valle in his Team Watts days. Nobody before or since has really ever been taped in any decent amount doing it better. If you can find things like B5 film and stuff from 2001 when he was in practice and winning tournaments with Team Watts, download it and study that stuff, because he's still the best BH you will find in game film anywhere.

[LightningStorm]

StiltMan: What's up! Lot's of people have spoken highly of you. And I hear you've also hear of me. :) What's the next big tournament you plan on attending? We need to meet and play each other sometime. And I also hear you're _blitz's cousin or something like that?

[luigi]

This thread rules. Thank you very much, guys.


Ok, what about Bh/Sent/capcom vs teamscrub starting Cable? Does Sent assist changes much? And what should cable do?

and what about teamwatts vs teamscrub(sent first). I am really clueless on Sent/BH. I don't know how to play Sent against BH notr how to play Bh against sent. Any info on that will be really appreciated.

This is a great thread. I must search character topics more often :)

[Thienhavodich]

Originally posted by StiltMan
I've been using Sent/Cable/BH for just shy of two years, to a point that many people call it "Team StiltMan" in the northwest. IMO, Sent-A is the better assist to work with. It's not as vulnerable to the rush as people think it is; Sentinel can protect himself from the rush quite well, Cable/Sent-A can protect itself from the rush, and BH himself has good enough pokes and space control that he shouldn't be getting rushed too often either. BH/Sent/Commando is a bit stronger against the rush, but Sent-A/Cable/BH is considerably stronger against turtles. Cable and BH both like having Sent-A to punish assists, set things up, and to combo stuff too much for me to ever consider going back to Sent-Y for that team. If I've got Team Scrub or Team Watts, I'll go with Sent-Y... for Sent/Cable/BH, Sent-A is about the only way to go.

BH/Cable/Commando is also a team I've used for a while, usually as a counter to Team Scrub. When I use this, I always start Cable, I jump around as much as possible. I don't call BH unless it's a fairly clear shot, and I never call Commando first unless I've got a flying Sentinel directly overhead. If they start Sentinel it can get a little nerve-wracking, but if you keep on the move and don't ever give him a moving target then there generally isn't a good way that Sentinel can attack you without putting either himself or Commando in harm's way. If Cable runs enough on this team Sentinel's only real way of chasing him down is to try to keep him on the ground with Commando, which (if you don't get hit) usually gets their Commando killed because yours pounds on it all day and eventually Cable can finish him off without using much meter. If they start Cable, then you have to stare him down -- whoever wins that Cable fight will usually get an OCV for the match. Cable/BH/Commando tends to mess up most opposing Cables, though, because the book on fighting Cable typically says that you need to play a vertical game of super jumping to stay out of the other's AHVB reach, and BH's assist disrupts that so thoroughly that the vast majority of Cable players simply don't know what to do when you take it away from them. Sentinel's drones are not going to throw this off too often unless the other Cable more or less tries to rush you down with it, in which case you run and create openings however you can. Cable/BH/Commando, if you play it very cool and very passive, give them as few attack angles that you have to block as possible and let it come to you, will very frequently OCV a Team Scrub player. However, you have to play it really, really passive for it to work; if you try to get too aggressive with it, Team Scrub can seize the advantage much more easily.

BH/Cable/Commando does not usually beat Magneto under any circumstances, which is why I only use this team as a counter to Team Scrub. BH has nothing but AAAs, demons, and pokes to keep Magneto away, and that just doesn't work on a good Magneto; you need both an AAA and a decent projectile assist to fight Magneto with BH effectively. BH/Sent/Commando, for instance, works far better on Magneto than BH/Cable/Commando does.

BH against Cable pretty much requires that you have Commando around and stay in his face as much as possible. You either have to psyche him out in a mind game or you're basically hosed. Very few BH players realize that BH can do much against Cable -- his pokes are considerably superior and he's a lot more mobile than Cable is, so this match is by no means free. Unfortunately, most BHs don't know much more than "throw demons and inferno/HOD". That kind of BH will indeed lose to Cable for free. A more patient one that stays in Cable's face and threatens him constantly with Commando breathing down his neck can get a lot farther.

For game film, the prototype BH player that you should start from to see how it's done was, and still is, Alex Valle in his Team Watts days. Nobody before or since has really ever been taped in any decent amount doing it better. If you can find things like B5 film and stuff from 2001 when he was in practice and winning tournaments with Team Watts, download it and study that stuff, because he's still the best BH you will find in game film anywhere.

Yeah u should go to Austin or the upcoming Regionals @ stargate Oct 25-26 and show how blackheart owns. Thier so narrowminded about blackheart saying he's "low tier" but i think those that play bh flawless with either Bh/cable/cap , Team Watts, or Sent/cable/Bh. Can be played very well. My team might be a lil scrubby and requires alot of turtling but its hella fun. Should try it out and see what u think? And more suggestions on this team will be greatly appreciated.

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by luigi
Ok, what about Bh/Sent/capcom vs teamscrub starting Cable? Does Sent assist changes much? And what should cable do?

Sent's assist doesn't change this match, unless you choose Sent's alpha assist. If you have alpha you can punish Capcom with this as well as your Capcom. Sent also takes better damage on assist than does Capcom so calling him a lot is safer than calling Capcom a lot. As well if Capcom gets low, you can let him get energy back by calling Sent instead.


Originally posted by luigi
and what about teamwatts vs teamscrub(sent first). I am really clueless on Sent/BH. I don't know how to play Sent against BH notr how to play Bh against sent. Any info on that will be really appreciated.

Team watts... which variation of team watts are you referring to? cause I believe the original Watts was something like Storm/BH/Capcom but now it's Sent/BH/Capcom.

Playing BH against Sentinel: BH will need any of his best assists (Cammy, Cyclops, CapCom). Against Sent I'd say Cammy specifically is the best here. This match is difficult to describe but I'll do my best. I'll assume Sent has Capcom's assist. This match is a loss for BH in general but BH does have options. BH's goal here is to keep the screen filled with EVERYTHING in the world. Doing this will limit Sent's mobility greatly. Flying Sent can maneuver around nearly everything but at least you keep control of the match and keep Sent on the run. When in the air FP demons are best against Sent, he can't rocket punch through them, can't FP them and is difficult do dodge and punish. FK demons shouldn't be abandonded, but should be limited to a grounded blocking Sent or a Sent who simply super jumped away or straight up. BH can catch Sent with FK Demons if timed right in the air to start the infinite... if this happens, like Cable, just snap him out and get the annoying assist on screen. If Sent is rushing you like nuts, you NEED to stay in the air. If BH is on the ground and sent is stomping and fly/unflying and assisting, (even if you're blocking perfectly) BH has already lost this match. When in the air FP Demons should be used but not abused. Against Sent jumping pokes beat out everything sent has (except rocket punch) but at close range no Sent Player is going to be rocket punching in the air. This match has so many varied scenarios that it'd be impossible to truly describe how to try to defeat Sent with BH. Honestly depending on the team you have it might just be better to switch BH out for a better character and use BH's assist against Sent, which does work.

Playing Sent against BH: It's a damn shame, but Sent doesn't really even need an assist to take care of BH even if BH has an assist. But for fairness sake let's give Sent Capcom's assist. (Doom and Cammy are also a good assists for Sent when fighting BH). Assuming the BH player is doing as I stated above, Sent is going to have to fly around a lot, being wary of when Cammy is and is not on screen and if BH is in the air or not. If cammy is not on screen don't be in here line of fire. If BH is in the air dodge demons. FP demons dodge by flying down and under if BH hasn't air dashed call Capcom to get him out of the air. If BH drops fk demons, wave dash that shit, or if you're flying fly over them and frying pan or if the situation is right air combo or unfly combo. Sent's goal is to get BH on the ground preferrably in the corner. Then you can stomp, fly, unfly, assist to your hearts content. If Cammy is on BH's team then you have a slight worry but if you stay on BH he won't get her out. If you have Doom's assist then not even Cammy is much of a worry anymore. And obviously Doom + Stomps + Fly >>>>>>> BH + Capcom.

[StiltMan]

BH vs. Sentinel: this fight is actually a lot better than people think it is. (But then, most BH fights are.) Since BH/Sent/Commando vs. Sent/Cable/Commando was the one that got asked about, that's what I'll go with.

Sentinel starting... How BH wants to fight Sentinel will depend a lot on whether the Sentinel is a guy who likes to fly a lot or whether he likes to stay on the ground and use his beams a lot. If he likes to stay on the ground, your Sentinel assist is going to become a big factor in the matchup. Any one drone of the assist that comes into play will go through the other Sentinel's super armor, and if he doesn't get out of the way that's a free inferno/HOD hit. If he throws the cr. fierce and then aims to fly over the drones, you can often catch him with inferno/HOD anyway.

If Sentinel gets over your head, some combination of Commando and sj. jabs should get him out of there. Giving it a moment when he gets there to see what he's going to do is not usually a bad idea, because you have to be aware that he might just be feinting a flyover in order to bait out your Commando so that he can call his and punish it. Give him a moment to stay up there and see what he's going to do before you call yours. If he stays up there long enough without you calling Commando, he may well either call his first or he thinks you're not going to call yours, and in either case calling yours becomes the right thing to do after a second or two if he doesn't get out of there.

If Sentinel is indeed the sort that likes to play in the air a lot, then this is actually quite a bit more to your advantage. If he flies too much then he's basically asking to get inferno/HOD'ed. A smart Sentinel will usually not fly willy-nilly for more or less just this reason. Even so, if Sentinel is flying a straight horizontal direction the inferno often won't track properly, and if you misfire this you're in for serious trouble. So if you're going to inferno/HOD him, zone him a little before you do it. Making him respect Commando is a start. Making him respect that he can't advance on you after a sj. fierce in flight mode is also good. If he gets too close, that's where your sj. jabs and Commando start coming into play, with the caveat I mentioned in the previous paragraph. The time to inferno/HOD a Sentinel that won't stop flying is after you've gotten him to respect your other weapons and he gets into this sort of idea that he should wait to see what you're going to do before he attacks outright -- at this point, he's not flying straight horizontally and the inferno will hit him. If Sentinel is staying just outside of Commando's range but isn't stopping flying while you're on the ground, call Commando and then inferno/HOD without waiting to see if it hits. If he comes closer, Commando knocks them into the inferno and they go for a ride. If they don't, they don't have enough space to avoid the inferno and Commando both.

At some point, a Sentinel player will eventually figure out that they really can't get away with flying forever on BH, and they'll start going to a mix of the two. By and large, this is when you're really going to get to work at it. Judicious use of demons, your air pokes, your own Sentinel assist, and Commando should eventually zone him off to a fair degree. That's ultimately how BH beats more or less anyone who plays patiently on him -- he zones them off into the corner where they can't do a whole lot of anything without running into something that's going to hurt. In addition, having Cable in the back is no longer an intimidating thing against BH if Sentinel is in the corner -- the inferno/HOD becomes an actual chipping weapon at this point. Guard cancel can get you in trouble somewhat in this case but Sentinel is big enough and has a slow enough normal jump that it's hard for him to get clear of inferno/HOD from the ground.

Other little bits... Sentinel players have a tendency to forget that BH has air judgment day when they're trying to HSF assist chars... often times they'll figure that even if BH gets off the ground it's no big deal since BH "can't hit them anyway". Which happens to be false.

Also, learn to abuse followups to inferno/HOD in the corner. If you time a st. or j. rh on their way down from the final hit, you can keep them bouncing and hit them some more afterwards. If you can manage to do this perfectly you can chain the followup into st. rh, sometimes repeatedly, and each time you manage to follow up on a previous st. rh it resets the damage. I've killed entire chars after a single inferno/HOD in the corner this way.

Fighting Team Watts against a Team Scrub that starts Cable... well, even though BH vs. Cable is not as hopeless as this seems, it really is better to start Sentinel for this. Use BH to keep Cable on the ground while you super jump over the top and patiently zone them and rush them down. The best footage I know to exist of this tactic in action is, I'm afraid, quite old. The two that best illustrate it are from a December 2000 tournament with Valle vs. Duc (with Valle using Spiral/Sent/BH against Duc's Spiral/Cable/Sentinel), and Nismor vs. Duc using Sent/Cable/BH against the same team. For some reason, Valle stopped using this tactic when he was playing Team Watts himself, and other than not wanting to risk BH when he's one of the main point chars, I'm not quite sure why. If you don't use BH on this fight, Sent/Commando has a lot of work to do to beat Cable/Commando, more than he has to do to keep BH safe by accepting the help. It depends a lot on how hurt BH is, though. But against a starting Cable, Cable won't have that much meter, so as long as you make sure you make the most of it when you get close to him, this shouldn't be such a horrible thing. But yeah, I personally am not a fan of starting BH on Team Scrub using Cable/Sent/Commando order.

[luigi]

Thank you very much, guys. I am thinking of using BH as an option, but keeping teamscrub as my main.

When I play Cable vs Bh, I use practically only Hps. I call assists/dash around until I got some space, then I do only j back or sj back. If they're on the same level(ground or j when I j or sj when I sj) I press HP(if it hits AHVB). If not I press nothing. I think that is the safest/better way to play against BH. Am I right?

[StiltMan]

Not really. If you stay on the ground, BH can substitute easily for his lack of a real dash by jumping forward. And if you ever leave the ground for basically any reason, you're basically begging BH to go over the top and drop demons on you, either when you normal jump or as you're coming down from a super jump. If you super jump, you also are giving him an avenue to jump forward beneath you so that he can threaten you with Commando.

There isn't really a "rote" way you can beat BH easily with Cable... it largely comes down to a staredown where Cable has the advantage at a distance and BH has the advantage up close. If you can describe what you want to do to beat BH in a short paragraph, and it works, you've got some pretty bad BHs.

[Thienhavodich]

Originally posted by StiltMan

There isn't really a "rote" way you can beat BH easily with Cable... it largely comes down to a staredown where Cable has the advantage at a distance and BH has the advantage up close. If you can describe what you want to do to beat BH in a short paragraph, and it works, you've got some pretty bad BHs.

hehe u got that right, i think my bh fears cables more than sents, thats cause i abuse fp demon and rh demons too much it becomes too damn obvious. But u and ls got some badd ass advice. hopefully i'll do better this weekly.

[Issariya]

is BH/ice man/servebot any good? newb here.

[luigi]

Originally posted by StiltMan
Not really. If you stay on the ground, BH can substitute easily for his lack of a real dash by jumping forward. And if you ever leave the ground for basically any reason, you're basically begging BH to go over the top and drop demons on you, either when you normal jump or as you're coming down from a super jump. If you super jump, you also are giving him an avenue to jump forward beneath you so that he can threaten you with Commando.

There isn't really a "rote" way you can beat BH easily with Cable... it largely comes down to a staredown where Cable has the advantage at a distance and BH has the advantage up close. If you can describe what you want to do to beat BH in a short paragraph, and it works, you've got some pretty bad BHs.

I don't even got Bhs usually, so I want to be prepared to fight good ones when I fight them. I think its stil hard to Bh to j forward or even sj too close since he has to block/avoid Capcom and Sent assists... not sure. How would you play Cable against team Wattas starting with Bh?

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Issariya
is BH/ice man/servebot any good? newb here.

No... Not at all. The closest to decent you could get with a team similar would be Servbot/BH/Doom. Servbot/Doom is shockingly sick. BH/Doom...is, well, BH/Doom!

Though I prefer this team to be either (Servbot/Sent/Doom) or (Servbot/Juggernaut/Doom).

Originally posted by luigi
I don't even got Bhs usually, so I want to be prepared to fight good ones when I fight them. I think its stil hard to Bh to j forward or even sj too close since he has to block/avoid Capcom and Sent assists... not sure. How would you play Cable against team Wattas starting with Bh?

Primary goal with Cable is stay on the same level with BH and at a distance. Random gunshots and grenades will work if BH is at a distance. Well timed and place viper beams and hiper viper beams take care of him (at a distance). You can keep the average BH player at bay (not a good BH but average) with the fierce grenade, as this stops BH's jumping ability and stuffs an HOD if he tries it. If BH does a Inferno xx HOD and Cable blocks it in the air fall a little then AHVB. On the ground after the Inferno simply AHVB (no push block necessary). If Cable get's hit when flying screen occurs immediatly AHVB upon standing up.

Additional strats, I'll let someone who plays Cable respond in more detail. I've played against enough Cables to know what they'll try, but as for actually using him.... can't help much there. :)

[StiltMan]

Well, a good, patient (redundancy in terms?) BH is going to be aiming for the following goals on Cable:

1. Get horizontally close to him, whether that's right in his face, above him, or below him.

2. Zone him into the corner.

Commando is of great help in doing this, because if you can at least threaten the vertical plane above you if Cable tries to get past you through the air, it gets a lot easier to keep him in the corner. In addition, if you're below Cable, air throwing him also starts to become an option. This is one thing that few BHs ever even try to do, but beating Cable with BH becomes much the same method as beating him with Sentinel, really: if you air throw, a lot of things gets a lot easier, and if you don't, they don't.

Now, if you're playing against a BH that's mainly doing random inferno/HOD on you, it's a pretty good sign that they're mentally on the ropes and have no idea what they should be doing. It does have its place (e.g. a Magneto or Storm that's running away and mashing fierce like a madman to build meter sometimes needs reminding that BH can indeed hit them up there) but in most cases seeing a BH do this is usually a pretty good sign that they don't know what they're doing at all.

The ways that a BH will try to get closer to Cable and zone them will involve normal jumping forward (and if they call an assist, air block it, of course), and super jumping either in response to Cable normal jumping or when they're on their way down from a super jump. Thus, a Cable that tries to jump around too much is actually going to get approached far more easily than one who largely waits. However, this puts a lot of heat on Cable, because if he doesn't jump then BH can simply approach him directly on the ground, and if he goes for a st. fierce, BH can duck under it and potentially even tag someone in to hit Cable. This is why I'm saying that if you're describing what to do in a short paragraph of specific moves you're using, and it's working, you've got some pretty bad BHs.

The general goals that Cable needs to use to keep BH out are more or less contraventing the ones that BH needs to use to get closer. As LS said, Cable needs to keep himself at a horizontal level with BH, and if he gets close it needs to be on his terms, not BH's. Coming in after a grenade to attack and keep BH honest never hurts -- BH generally is going to have the advantage at close range, but with the grenades, Cable can create an avenue where he can come in safely, and then get back out again and judiciously use an assist to keep BH from following after him. In general, don't leave the ground unless BH does it first or unless he's already blocking an assist so that he can't take advantage of it positionally. Having your own Commando both to punish assists without burning the meter and to take away some of BH's vertical game doesn't hurt -- although frankly, Team Scrub is on its way out at the top levels of play because it's horrifically vulnerable to snapbacks, not because of Commando's weaknesses on point so much as he only can DHC out safely if Sentinel is the second char in the team order.

Position is everything in a Cable vs. BH fight. If the BH's bad and hasn't learned much more than mindlessly throwing demons and inferno/HOD, then yeah, the conventional wisdom that Cable's going to tear him up applies. If the BH is good, though, then it doesn't apply, because this is a fight that BH is very much capable of winning if he's patient and he knows the positioning he wants. The fact that Cable would rather keep a distance lends itself more than a little to a retreating game, which can easily play right into BH's hands when Cable finds himself in the corner, which in turn can get really nasty if BH is relentless enough about keeping him there. This is why it's not a bad idea to follow up projectile attacks and go after BH in turn once in a while, because this makes BH stop and think about things a little and pushes things away from the corner a little better -- or, better yet, lets Cable potentially jump over BH somewhat safely and reverse the positioning.

Like I said... it's a staredown. And it's one that isn't nearly as free for Cable as people think.

[Issariya]

Originally posted by LightningStorm


No... Not at all. The closest to decent you could get with a team similar would be Servbot/BH/Doom. Servbot/Doom is shockingly sick. BH/Doom...is, well, BH/Doom!

Though I prefer this team to be either (Servbot/Sent/Doom) or (Servbot/Juggernaut/Doom).



my new team is BH/Ryu/Marrow and i almost beat Abyss 1st body with it. My next project is BH/Guile/Roll :evil:

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Issariya
i almost beat Abyss 1st body with it.

Good lord :confused:

[StiltMan]

Originally posted by Issariya
my new team is BH/Ryu/Marrow and i almost beat Abyss 1st body with it. My next project is BH/Guile/Roll :evil:

Up... you're scaring me. Stop it. Or I'm going to print this out and have Zach make you play that the next time you show your face at a Lanwerx tourney. :confused:

[Deathfist]

Originally posted by Issariya


my new team is BH/Ryu/Marrow and i almost beat Abyss 1st body with it. My next project is BH/Guile/Roll :evil:

Please don't take offence to anything I say here. I really don't want to offend you, but there are some things that need mentioning.

Most of us are more interested in being able to beat players at this stage in the game than in being able to beat the computer. We've got past that point. You see, a smart player is WAY harder to defeat than the computer. This is why although I have a dreamcast, I RARELY use it.

If you want a good team to annihilate the computer with that features BH, you can use BH-b, Cable-b, Cyc-b. Ironically, this team will annihilate most players too.

Another good team vs the computer would be BH, Storm-a, Guile-a.

Out of curiousity, how would everyone rate BH, Storm-a, Guile-a [Keep in mind there is a Kill DHC order in this team...].

[luigi]

Originally posted by StiltMan
The ways that a BH will try to get closer to Cable and zone them will involve normal jumping forward (and if they call an assist, air block it, of course), and super jumping either in response to Cable normal jumping or when they're on their way down from a super jump.

Thank you, Stiltman and Lightning storm.

If BH air blocks an assist normal jumping doe not cable gets the advantage again? I stand still, BH j forwards, blocks assist, blocks ground HPs (maybe l. vb or grenade after it, but he may sj out). And when I am close to the ground and he sjs I can wavedash to get to far positions again, where I can make him block something(e.g. j HP + drones) on the way down and thus keeping control of the match, I believe. What do you think?

Also, is sj HK grenade really safe if I am at sj height and BH on the ground? Like, even after I got hit the grenade will come to BH and avoid HoD/DHC?

[Issariya]

Originally posted by Deathfist


Please don't take offence to anything I say here. I really don't want to offend you, but there are some things that need mentioning.

Most of us are more interested in being able to beat players at this stage in the game than in being able to beat the computer. We've got past that point. You see, a smart player is WAY harder to defeat than the computer. This is why although I have a dreamcast, I RARELY use it.

If you want a good team to annihilate the computer with that features BH, you can use BH-b, Cable-b, Cyc-b. Ironically, this team will annihilate most players too.

Another good team vs the computer would be BH, Storm-a, Guile-a.

Out of curiousity, how would everyone rate BH, Storm-a, Guile-a [Keep in mind there is a Kill DHC order in this team...].

I don't take that as offense at all :) maybe someday, you guys might see me beating Stiltman in the grandfinal with his own team :lol:

spiderman/BH/cammy ownz by the way :evil:

[Thienhavodich]

Hey Ls where is N-cubed being held? the stupid thing on the tourney/events didn't say where.I already bought tickets hopefully my Bh/???/Tron will be good by then hehe

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by Thienhavodich
Hey Ls where is N-cubed being held? the stupid thing on the tourney/events didn't say where.I already bought tickets hopefully my Bh/???/Tron will be good by then hehe

Family Fun Center
7052 Dodge St.
Omaha, NE 68132

They have a web site, but N-Cubed isn't on it.. but my pic is for a tournament I took 3rd in in 2002. lol!

http://www.familyfuncenter.net/tournaments/

[OmegaRyuji]

How would you rate Team Watts, with Blackheart starting?

[StiltMan]

Well, Team Watts can either be really good or really bad, it depends on how much you try to autopilot on it. BH on autopilot only really works on scrubs, and so does Sent/BH on autopilot. If you try to play it as an easy-mode team then it's not going to work real well at all. The prototype on game film to study from for how to play this team effectively is still Alex Valle, but there's stuff that even he could have done better and didn't. Eventually he sort of lost interest in the game and, perhaps, stopped advancing the team once people started getting better at fighting BH. And these days, the art of playing BH has regressed in most parts of the country so far that many people don't think he belongs in the top 10 of a tier chart.

There's a number of reasons for this. Chipping with inferno/HOD has gotten dangerous because any team with Cable on it anywhere in the roster will either guard cancel if he's on point or counter to him if he's in the back in order to shoot BH -- if the point char doesn't guard cancel out and hit BH before even that. Magneto players -- once fodder for BH -- have gotten more sophisticated and don't fall for the basic demon-throwing patterns any more, and their ability to throw any number of infinites on him has gotten stronger, making it easier to kill him or snap him out off of random hits everywhere on the screen. BH lends himself far too much to easy-moding, and the ways to defend against the easy-moding have proven not to be that difficult once people got used to it. BH players, even some of the best of them, stopped innovating once this came about, and as a result he's become something of a lost soul in the grand scheme of things. Throw that on top of the fact that the only DHCs that anyone's really figured out at all how to throw off of anything BH does are hail storm and beam supers (neither of which helps Team Watts much), and yeah, BH looks pretty damned obsolete.

For Team Watts to be effective, you have to solve these problems. You have to get away from the temptation to easy-mode it with BH (and with Sent/BH, for that matter) and learn how to zone, how to defend against rushdown players, and how to position yourself and mix things up so that people can't just shrug you off. And yeah, figuring out a good DHC with the team would probably be good too. If you try to play BH as a pattern player or Sent/BH as an easy-mode trap, Team Watts won't get you very far beyond the role of a scrub-crushing team. Even if you figure out exactly how Valle played it and what was going through his mind in the game film of him, you'll only get so far with it. To make Team Watts work these days, you're going to need to push the envelope a bit, discover a few things that Valle and the imitators didn't come across two years ago, and establish some new things for the squad.

If you easy-mode it, the team gets no better than 5 or so. If you manage to figure out how Valle played it in the old days and can duplicate it, it might rise to 6 or 7. Push the envelope with it a bit and I'd give it the potential for a 9 or 10. And yeah, I believe there's some envelope left to be pushed. (Who, me? Holding out a few secrets of one of my latest projects? Nawwww... :confused: )

[LightningStorm]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
How would you rate Team Watts, with Blackheart starting?

Stilt said it all.

I personally however would rate it a 7 or 8. Because let's face it... there is still Sent/Capcom and they really don't need a third character. Hell Sent/Serv/Capcom could be good! :eek:

(Note: don't take that above statement literally... just hyperbolizing to get my point across.)

[StiltMan]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Sent/Servbot/Commando would be that good. BH has a great deal of value to the team both on point and as an assist.

Update on my BH rehab projects: this past Saturday I got 5th at Seattle's most recent Lanwerx tournament with BH/Sent/Commando. BH did his job on Magneto with my new defensive ideas just fine; even Row didn't get a whole lot done in that matchup. Row beat me, but it was with Storm/Sentinel, not Magneto vs. BH.

[OmegaRyuji]

Congradulations StiltMan! Keep up the good work *gives Dan-style thumbs up*

[OmegaRyuji]

Any significant uses for instant air dashing and/or cancelling sj.fp into air dash before the demons come out? The first kinda works to get people jumping when your on the ground, but Sent-y+j.fp can do that too.

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by OmegaRyuji
Any significant uses for instant air dashing and/or cancelling sj.fp into air dash before the demons come out? The first kinda works to get people jumping when your on the ground, but Sent-y+j.fp can do that too. Are you talking about the floaty air dash?

[shin-ryu-long]

Wow! Cool stuff. LightningStorm, StiltMan, you are my heroes:)
This stuff helped my BlackHeart improve so much^_^
Thanks to all!

[Thienhavodich]

The only thing i see that is useful about it is it lets u block before cable shoots ur ass down, or anyone attempting to get u up there if u let the demons out thier is a longer time before u can dash and block, that lil time frame that the demons come out is alot longer than it may seem. I use to do that tooo much to the point where no demons would come out and i would just sj. dash... and i was wondering WTF happened to my demons. So i learned a different way to use it. Its only a few circumstances that its makes it valuable but u can come up with better ways, cause i suck.

[LightningStorm]

That airdash thing...

I like it for the instant block you can get that will protect from the magic bullet into ahvb and random hailstorms.

My favorite thing to do though (HELLA risky.. but can catch most off guard at least once.) is to (against Cable) sj.FK airdash into instant block to bait the AHVB way up in the air. When Cable's done with it push block the last hit of the AHVB Cable will fall BH will not for a minute, as soon as Cable falls out of screen do air judgement day. This will catch most Cable's off guard, because they are expecting BH to fall since he used his airdash and can't double jump. So the Cable will usually do something on the ground perhaps a regular viper beam, a psimitar, or a grenade. And air judgement day will stop all that. Like I said.... it's ridiculously risky but when it works the cable player is usually quite pissed at how much damage it has dealt and the fact that they fell for it, which a pissed off opponent is an opponent who is now off their game and easier to kill. :p

And in my case I usually have a Hailstorm on DHC if Cable managed to get out of it.