Does anyone consider Rugal cheap? [Archive]

vasAZNion13

06-26-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Dragon_Light
I played some dude at this place one time and he knew very little about CvS2 and more about Street Fighter. So I pick Rugal to test him and keep throwin out Charged Kaiser waves at him and he yells that's cheap. The fact is, he likes to turtle a lot so I figure to just wear away his guard bar and go for a combo or something.

Anywayz, I don't need anyone to post how to beat that kind of play here. So I'm asking, do you think it's cheap and could you beat someone that plays like that? I mean, I know for sure that I could beat someone that does that so I'm just trying to get feedback here.

Remember ppl, don't post how to beat it here, he might come on here and see it lol.

i think it's cheap to over abuse a move that someone has no idea have to overcome

i remember when i first started playing, and my team was zangief/raiden/chang k groove...
this one guy used rugal, ryu, akuma and threw fireballs all day and another else...and didn't kno how to jd that well yet so i got owned badly and i was mad cuz he killed me with rugal only(kaiser waved me all day, and another else)

but...i don't think kaiser wave isn't cheap, if that guy throws a lot of fireballs and jumps backward a lot and continues fireball....
if he's doing that and you can go ahead and kaiser wave his ass, he's the one that wants to play pussy style, you can join him

Burghy

06-26-2003, 10:36 AM

That's not cheap.

What's really cheap is when someone picks Ryu, and does a lot of fireballs. And if you jump he does shoryuken!!

Man, that pisses me off! Obviously it's not a problem of my skill but it's him using a cheap tactic. He shouldn't use that even if it gets him wins.

Sessahoumaru

06-26-2003, 10:44 AM

No that's not cheap. If there was absolutly no way around it then yeah it could be justified as cheap. But there are plenty of ways to get around a Kaiser wave. The guy was just dumb.

B3nim4ru

06-26-2003, 01:08 PM

vasAZNion13

06-26-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Burghy
That's not cheap.

What's really cheap is when someone picks Ryu, and does a lot of fireballs. And if you jump he does shoryuken!!

Man, that pisses me off! Obviously it's not a problem of my skill but it's him using a cheap tactic. He shouldn't use that even if it gets him wins.

it's the same with rugal, if you can't figure out how to get through ryu's "fireball/shoryuken only" tactic...you probably can't figure out how to get through "kaiser wave/kick cutter upper thingy" tactic

Originally posted by Sessahoumaru
No that's not cheap. If there was absolutly no way around it then yeah it could be justified as cheap. But there are plenty of ways to get around a Kaiser wave. The guy was just dumb.

i think it's classified as cheap when it's extremely easy to do and much harder to avoid (than other moves or tactics the other guy should be trying to do), and then you abuse it badly...then that's cheap....even if the other guy knoes exactly how to beat that kind of tactic....then...the rugal player will lose while playing cheaply...

just cuz you can get around it, doesn't mean it's not cheap...

Sessahoumaru

06-26-2003, 09:12 PM

just cuz you can get around it, doesn't mean it's not cheap

Ok, let me rephrase that. If you can get around it as easy as him doing it, (such as with the Kaiser wave example) then no it's not cheap. Lets take some examples of what you can do.

If you are right next to him.

Roll
Jump
throw a fireball of your own
and here's a good one ... remember this now... hit him...oh what a concept.
Parry,
Just defend
Use moment of invicibilty in super.

If he is on the other side of the screen.

Do the extended jump at the right distance to avoid the Kaiser wave and kick him in the head
Throw a fireball
wait till he throws it and roll
parry
just defend
taunt

In this situation set Rugal and set tactic are not cheap... there is also Air blocking. Plus the original poster said they were Charged Kaiser waves. If getting around the technique is as easy as doing the technique the person is doing, then it's not cheap. The opponent is just stoopid.

Mummy-B

06-27-2003, 01:27 AM

Anyone calling anyone "cheap," when they haven't used anything that hacks the game all to hell, sucks.

And to the smart asses that may come in here, an RC is not a hack.

If you can't figure out the options around something, there are two possibilities: He is better, or the game is fucked. Guess what it is 9.999999999999999999 times out of 10?

mindtricks

06-27-2003, 04:27 AM

^ I find myself agreeing with Mummy. C'mon gentlemen, at the top level of play, there is no such thing as "cheap."

Sessahoumaru

06-27-2003, 07:55 AM

yes but this isn't the top level, it's a Jabroni and some guy. No comparison.

Mummy-B

06-27-2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Sessahoumaru
yes but this isn't the top level, it's a Jabroni and some guy. No comparison.

That doesn't change the fact that the guy yelling "cheap" still sucks worse than the other guy winning, even if the other guy winning is not that great.

See, this is where you differentiate the scrubs that don't have a clue and guys who are good. You don't ever hear "cheap" being used in the brackets at Evolution. But you hear it in the tiny ass pathetic mall arcade where the guy who can mash on KKK with Maki thinks he's the shit and suddenly someone picks Ryu and does the fireball/uppercut pattern beats him.

Yelling "cheap" = suck

kcxj

06-27-2003, 06:12 PM

CHEESE!! omg... that's so cheap!

MCTek

06-27-2003, 10:05 PM

well if i remember all the way back in alt.games.sf2 cheap is defined as "low risk, high rewards". So if you're rugal and you're doing kaiserwave against K or P groove, then yes by strict definition it is "cheap".

As for there not being cheapness at high level play, i think you mean "tourney play". High level play is just skilled players sparring. In tourney play everyone's abusing the game system to the max so basically nothing is cheap because EVERYTHING is cheap.

Of course the rugal kaiser wave example isn't cheap at all if say makoto was the one playing p-groove. In which case the risk vs rewards factor is much much higher.

Of course if we watch the SBO finals we see that even in tourney play there's different degrees of cheapness. Sakura's dive kick charges meter and recovers instantly. Charge up meter activate cc and wins round whether you block or not. The risk vs rewards for a sakura custom is so lopsided it's cheap no matter how you look at it.

Mummy-B

06-27-2003, 10:57 PM

You don't seem to understand that "cheap" is nonexistent, no matter what angle you come from.

There is skilled, average, and unskilled. When the unskilled start thinking "cheapness" exists, they get demoted to suck. When the suck start actively trying to convince bystanders that thier loss was the direct cause of "cheapness," they get demoted again to stupid mall scrub. That's the bottom of the totem pole.

Doing repeated Kaiser Waves against K or P Groove is far from cheap. It's slow enough to Parry or JD on reaction. Every time Rugal winds back one more time, you Parry or JD one more hit to a maximum of three total hits. Rugal dies if he trys this to any average or skilled player in K or P. I'll go out on a limb and say even an unskilled player would kick his ass. Suck and Stupid Mall Scrub lose horribly to this though.

Are you calling all tourney play cheap? As in, the entirety of Evolution is cheapness? If you are, you're a retard and you don't know how to play SF.

Sakura's dive kick does not have instant recovery. It has the same recovery as Cammy's Cannon Strike. The trick is to catch the opponent's sprite low enough so that the recovery matches the blockstun animation forced on the opposing sprite. For meter building, you jump back and cancel the peak of your jump coming forward, so that you stay in the same place and leave yourself at less risk of being hit while doing so. Second, the CC is not an instant kill - It is to P and K Groove specifically because of the size of the guard crush meters and lack of ability to Alpha Counter. Even then, blocked, the CC does 55% damage (on average). That's not instant kill, that's half your life. Since you're a retard if you pick a Groove that instantly gets countered by A Sak, that's not cheap, that's stupid. You pick a Groove that has Alpha Counter, or Guard Cancel Roll.

I reiterate: If you think cheapness exists in a game like CvS2, you're a retard and you can't play it. Bottom line.

OneDumbG00k

06-27-2003, 11:30 PM

vasAZNion13

06-28-2003, 01:13 AM

everyone has their own definition for what's cheap and what's not...it's too hard for everyone to agree on

so let's say someone says "that's cheap" , if you dont' like him saying it, then teach him how to get around it or stop doing it

it's not a matter of rugal being cheap or not, it's a matter of YOU getting mad about them saying it's cheap...

if you dont' like that, then stop doing it, if you dont' care, continue...

MCTek

06-28-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Mummy-B
You don't seem to understand that "cheap" is nonexistent, no matter what angle you come from.

Are you calling all tourney play cheap? As in, the entirety of Evolution is cheapness? If you are, you're a retard and you don't know how to play SF.

I reiterate: If you think cheapness exists in a game like CvS2, you're a retard and you can't play it. Bottom line.

funny...I didn't say cheapness = lockdown or cheapness = instant win. I use the definition of cheapness that was generally agreed upon back in the newsgroup days, of something that has lopsided low risk/high reward. Doing kaiser wave just outside of jump-in against an uncharged P/K-groove is definitely going to be advantageous to Rugal. The mix-up is there, and just randomly timing the wave is enough to stop people from parrying/jd'ing it consistently.

Did i say it's unbeatable? No. Nor did I say a-sakura is. If you are using my definition of low risk/high rewards, you'll see why I call it cheap. And in that same route, yes, tourney play is all about "cheapness". Why would you do ANYTHING where the reward doesn't overshadow the risk? Look at the final round of A-sakura vs C-Sagat. Are you telling me that the flow of the match WASN'T controlled by a fully charged Sakura? Everything that Daigo was doing was keeping in mind that if he fucks up he eats the custom. The custom by itself isn't dominating, but the fear of it is.

Saying cheapness doesn't exist seems to me more of people patting themselves on the back for getting around it then recognizing the basic mechanics in a game. You say, "You don't seem to understand that "cheap" is nonexistent, no matter what angle you come from." Basically you assume I'm a scrub as soon as I say "so-and-so have an advantage", instead of noting that I gave a different definition of cheapness. I'm sure you're a pro that doesn't feel intimidated by a fully-charged A-sakura. Hell maybe you don't even bat an eye playing against Akuma in ST with Zangief. But if you don't feel that the match is being dictated by the Akuma and Sakura in those situations then you're simply ignoring my definition.

I tried as hard as I can not to sound offended in my reply, hopefully I convinced you to re-read the low risk/high reward definition again before hoisting yourself up by bashing people.

Mummy-B

06-28-2003, 05:46 PM

As far as I read, you were trying to justify the concept of cheap with risk/reward.

And the retard line was not directed, it was a generalized statement directed at any particular person who does wholeheartedly believe that cheapness exists as a means to explain a win/loss scenario.

Sorry if you took that personally, the only part that was directed specifically at you was the part about tourney play.

MCTek

06-28-2003, 08:40 PM

despite how you choose to interpret it, I am not "justifying" a definition, but merely providing one that is more productive than any that has been provided so far. It seems you're still in a mental-set that is making this discussion harder than it has to be.

The concept of calling something cheap isn't so scrubs have an excuse when they lose to fb+dp, ("cheapness exists as a means to explain a win/loss scenario) it's to point out something in the game that can be fixed. You can call it "broken" or "god tier" or "horrible match-up", I call it "cheap". In any fighting game there's going to be characters/moves that is just that much better than almost everything else out there.

Tourney is all about winning, and logically anything that isn't banned is going to be used. If Akuma wasn't banned in ST tourneys you can bet anyone serious about winning will be using him. At your previous post you said the counter to A-Sakura is to pick a groove with counters. If anything that proves my point even more. The prescence of the CC is so overpowering it renders K/P completely pointless, according to you. Saying "pick such and such character" or "pick such and such team" is a defeatist idea that I never agreed with in any fighting game. It's already in the game, so of course, either you deal with it or go play something else. But that shouldn't stop you from recognizing that it shouldn't be there in the first place. By saying cheapness don't exist in a tourney situation, you're also ignoring the fact that tourneys, character wise, are way more monotonous than casaul gameplay.

Mummy-B

06-28-2003, 09:49 PM

Your examples don't explain cheapness though.

Every groove and character has options, or lack thereof. It's pretty common knowledge that, on paper, A beats P & K, C & N beat A, and P & K beat C & N. (this is strictly theory fighter)

The thing is, each Groove has a set of options. There are six unique Grooves that all offer a different set of options. Some Grooves have an advantage over others or vice versa. This is not cheapness, this is balance. It keeps one or the other from being overpowered. A Sak kills P or K anyone, but anyone with Alpha Counter can stop her CC. And so on. This isn't defeatist at all, it's just the mechanic to keep everything competitive.

Something like using Gouki in ST, that's not allowed in play. Because it's UNbalanced. There is no balancing factor to even him out. That's not cheap, that's unbalanced. That's like if Shin Gouki or God Rugal retained the same Ratio stamina they have when they are the computer if you used them yourself. That would be ridiculously unbalanced. This is also why characters have different stamina levels. Gouki in CvS2 has umpteenth moves and can juggle like a circus freak - the balancing factor is that he takes hit like a red headed stepchild. Is it cheap if I pick Sentinel-esque Sagat against him, because Sagat has death hits and ridiculous stamina? No. If Gouki could deal damage and take hits like Sagat, Sagat would be laughable.

MCTek

06-29-2003, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Mummy-B
Your examples don't explain cheapness though.

Something like using Gouki in ST, that's not allowed in play. Because it's UNbalanced.

thanks for agreeing with me.

Burghy

06-29-2003, 07:41 AM

He didn't agree with you, he said that you were stupid (but politely).

Unlike me, who is impolite. Sorry.

MCTek

06-29-2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Burghy
He didn't agree with you, he said that you were stupid (but politely).

Unlike me, who is impolite. Sorry.

good point burghy, you got me there. Well played chum, well played.

Dragon_Light

06-29-2003, 06:41 PM

I just want to clarify something here. The guy I was playing said that he's the best in the country and even the world at CvS2. I told him that there were Japanese ppl I knew who would own him 4 fr33 and he vehementyly disagreed. I tried to explain what they're capable of and he wasn't hearing any of it.

He challenged me on ps2, I played him and I beat one of his best characters infront of his friends making him look stupid and very much like a weakling and he started to play with Zangief. Now he parades telling everyone that he went easy on me.

He was playing with Honda and I had already realized a consistency in his play style. He is a huge turtle. So I say to my self, throw out some Kaiser Waves and see how he responds. I did it and all he did was block. I didn't keep doing it anyway, I closed in and used normals and specials and what not. Basically, when I was throwing out the waves, I was in a sense trying to tell him come and get me, I'm over here dammit!!! To this, he had no response thus calling it cheap.

Furthermore, he says rcing means nothing to him. If I had used that on him, there would only be perfects on my record. I don't advocate to using rcing as it is taking advantage of a glitch that most ppl in my country don't know about.

What I'm saying is, the guy now looks like a really narrowminded person to me saying that he's the best and still calling things cheap. There are dozens of Groove specific evasive tactics/anti projectile sub systems to make yourself go crazy and he knew none. So, what I got for trying to educate the unwilling is being called cheap.

Burghy

06-29-2003, 07:23 PM

At least you beat the best CvS2 player in the world
You should be proud!

vasAZNion13

06-30-2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Burghy
At least you beat the best CvS2 player in the world
You should be proud!

haha

dragon_light: i don't think u're friend really cares that much if you prove him to not be the best in cvs2...hell..i could go to evolution2003 and run around screaming i'm the best at cvs2..and u'll see people beat me first round and there might be a thread that goes "some guy at evo claimed to be the best , i beat him" oh big whoop dee doo...no one really cares about me still...

here's something you can try...beat ur friend with his own team..and use his same strat but do it better than him and prove him wrong like that...if anything that's "slightly" unfair like rugal's kaiser wave...don't use it....why dont' use just use the reppuken that he has as the fireball?

mummy b: cheapness is described as something that's cost less than it's worth

let's take the kaiser wave for example, it's relatively easy to do and it shoots out a big fireball range
let's look at chun li's fireball, it's about the same difficulty to do as the rugal fireball (minus the foward motion),

but it's way more useless than rugal's kaiser wave at far range

simply put, kaiser wave is cheaper to use than chun li's fireball in that perspective...

of course i'm not taking in the account that chun li's fireball can be used in combo's, but cheapness still exist, IMO,

let's go to ur akuma example, u said akuma is unbalanced ST, so using akuma was used, you get more power for the same price (price meaning just choosing characters)

okay, i'm starting to confuse myself with my own thoughts, i hope you see what i'm trying to say though

if not, oh well....people have their own views anyways

Mummy-B

06-30-2003, 03:36 AM

That's a real stretch on definition.

I'm pretty sure Webster was putting it in context of face value, as opposed to physical exertion compared to level of utility in the result. That has less to do with face value, and more to do with "effort."

Dragon_Light

06-30-2003, 06:40 AM

I simply find it hard to play how he does. He turtles all day so if I play the way he does, matches would take days to end. Oh and for the record, he said he was the best in the world, all I wanted to do is prove him wrong about that which I did. I do not claim to be the best at anytime ever. Better maybe, but not the best. Besides, like I said before, I didn't abuse the Kaiser Wave.

MCTek

06-30-2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Mummy-B
That's a real stretch on definition.

I'm pretty sure Webster was putting it in context of face value, as opposed to physical exertion compared to level of utility in the result. That has less to do with face value, and more to do with "effort."

I doubt Webster have street fighter in mind when he started compiling definitions. Words are dynamic and arbitrary symbols, which means they can't be wrong inherently but only used wrong. You're arguing about definitions instead of looking at how the definitions are used.

vasAZNion13

06-30-2003, 02:00 PM

Mummy-B

06-30-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by MCTek

I doubt Webster have street fighter in mind when he started compiling definitions. Words are dynamic and arbitrary symbols, which means they can't be wrong inherently but only used wrong. You're arguing about definitions instead of looking at how the definitions are used.

I responded in context of the post - what he gave me as a definition, followed by the example he provided after it.

Talking about something "costing" something while giving me an example that has nothing to do with "costing" anything, and having everything to do with value output per amount of effort involved strikes me as quite a valid way to throw "cheapness" out the door. If the example illustrates how it DOESN'T apply to the definition, it just further helps prove the point that cheapness doesn't exist and is irrelevant in SF.

I know that you can be vague with vocabulary to twist it to match whatever you want. I'm an English major. I do it all the time. That's not the point. Point is definition given did not match example and example did not justify use of definition; therefore, vocabularly term is inapplicable.

If you would like to try and bend the definition some and try to make it fit, you're most welcome to try.

vasAZNion13

07-01-2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Mummy-B

I know that you can be vague with vocabulary to twist it to match whatever you want. I'm an English major. I do it all the time. That's not the point. Point is definition given did not match example and example did not justify use of definition; therefore, vocabularly term is inapplicable.
.

damn u're an english major?
well that settles it, you win

Gamma Ray

07-02-2003, 10:44 PM

I have an idea...how about you put your little controller down, and go out. Get some sun. It's a video game. As nice as it is pulling off a beautiful Geese CC on a haughty K Sagat...a girlfriend is much better. Go get one. They're nice. It's just a freaking game. if you think he's being cheap, bash a chair over his head IN REAL LIFE. That'll teach him a lesson.'Tis a game, and it should be discussed like a game should be, not polotics.

vasAZNion13

07-03-2003, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by Gamma Ray
I have an idea...how about you put your little controller down, and go out. Get some sun. It's a video game. As nice as it is pulling off a beautiful Geese CC on a haughty K Sagat...a girlfriend is much better. Go get one. They're nice. It's just a freaking game. if you think he's being cheap, bash a chair over his head IN REAL LIFE. That'll teach him a lesson.'Tis a game, and it should be discussed like a game should be, not polotics.

wtf...polotics? please tell me you spelled it wrong on purpose...

EDIT:

what does *ahem* "polotics" have to do with what we're talking about?

Gamma Ray

07-03-2003, 08:54 AM

Oh blow me, you nerd.

HaDoKen

07-03-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Gamma Ray
Oh blow me, you nerd.

i got a girl and i like playing video games. sometimes i take my game seriously too.

but from my point of view it just seems like you suck at the game and use having a gf as an excuse. just my 2 cents

vasAZNion13

07-03-2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Gamma Ray
Oh blow me, you nerd.

you call me a nerd just cuz i kno you spelled politics wrong and the fact that politics has nothing to do with the usage of the word "cheap"....

OKAY...i'm proud of you...for the fact that you found a gf who doesn't mind being with someone of ur intelligence

Dragon_Light

07-09-2003, 05:11 AM

Ouchie!!!

Deathfist

07-09-2003, 04:08 PM

MASSIVE POST ALERT

Cheapness does exhist, but the term is thrown about so often that nobody truely understands the concept of what real cheapness is.

This post will be rather general. I'm not a major CvS2 player and I'm a newbie at it actually, but there is alot to concider here on the topic of cheapness.

There is the classic definition of cheapness, the modern version, and the actual version.

Classic: [Fun cheapness]
1]low risk, highly brainless moves and move sequences that have high rewards.

-The more of these you find the better. The whole point of the game besides having fun is to find as many of these as you can and the counters to them.
-Mind games are tools, as are opponent frustration, opponent confusion, surprise tactics, and baiting.

Modern: [False cheapness]
2]Anything that increases your odds of victory above that of the opponent. [Throwing, kill combos, minor glitches (usable by many or affording minor advantages) chosing counter characters, deceptiveness, confusion tactics, etc...]

-Okay, perhaps I shouldn't call this the modern version. I should call this the SCRUB definition.
-Competitive games aren't designed with a concept of honor or chapness. They are designed to have counters for as many things as possible so true cheapness cannot occur. That way you can be as dishonorable as you want because that's the whole point.
-Fighting games are games of warfare. All warfare is based on deception, confusion, dissimilation, control, etc... Where the fuck is honor mentioned? OOPS I guess it isn't. I hope you get the picture. Honor is ONLY to be used if it will suit your purposes.
-If you eat a kill combo or infinite, it's your damed fault for not blocking. If you get guardcrushed or thrown, it's your own dammed fault too. Virtually everything is put in a game for a reason. Without throwing or guardbreaking for example, the block would be godlike and thus stupid.

Actual: [Blatant cheapness]
3]Anything that's ACTUALLY unfair.
-Choosing 100% broken characters [Veil/Abel (Toshinden 3), True (Shin) Akuma in any game, God Rugal (CvS2), or any other character specifically and DELIBERATELY designed to be unhandlable by the game. ]
-Trash talking your opponent.
-Glitches that are game freezing / locking / breaking / disrupting / side dependent [this one must also be one of the previous on this line].
-The tactic must be almost [IMO IS] unavoidable.

THE TEST FOR ACTUAL CHEAPNESS IMO...

1]Is it unavoidable or uncircumventable?
-this includes countermeasures and counter tactics BTW
2]Do many characters have something equally overpowering or the ability to take advantage of the tactic?
3]Was it intended to be there?
-Sometimes the best things in a game are unintentional.
-Sometimes the worst things in a game are intintional.
4]Is it gamebreaking?
-Just because it is gamebreaking doesen't mean it's game ruining [huge combos for example]. Sometimes it has the OPPOSITE effect in the end. The tactic must SERIOUSLY detract from the game.

A unanimously unfair and negative mark must be given on ALL these counts for something to be unfair and actually cheap. If it isn't, too bad. You have nothing to complain about.

Should you use "classic cheap" as in easy win tactics on a beginner? The answer is yes. He's gonna run into it eventually. It's better someone that likes him does this than someone who doesen't. And if he can't handle it, simply tell him how to handle it [if done kindly and sincerely, very important or he'll think you're an asshole]. That or let him figure it out himself [if you don't want it taken the wrong way].

If he bitches, he has no right to play because he isn't trying to having fun and is ruining yours. He therefore deserves more ass kickings until he figures out how to beat you or retires forever. That said, NEVER treat a newbie with disrespect, and NEVER play a beginner without his permission either. That's just evil and retarded [and if he sucks, he'll die soon letting you play anyways].

By going easy on him too much [IMO any at all] you do him a disservice. You rip him off because his learning is inaccurate, and you rip yourself off because you won't get to your good opponents as fast. Hell, he might even beat you. There are alot of things a beginner can do to surprise and burn you if you slack off.

And is Rugal Cheap? Fuck no.

Mummy-B

07-09-2003, 11:03 PM

... and what exactly makes this post the authority on this myth called "cheapness?"

Deathfist

07-10-2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Mummy-B
... and what exactly makes this post the authority on this myth called "cheapness?"

We all have opinions on the subject. I'm just telling you mine. If you have an opinion on the subject, let's hear yours.

Mummy-B

07-10-2003, 06:22 PM

I was just asking. You had a very authoritative tone, as if it was not opinion, which is why I asked.

My opinion is in here. It should be pretty evident in the last post I had when I put emphasis on "myth."

Deathfist

07-15-2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Mummy-B
I was just asking. You had a very authoritative tone, as if it was not opinion, which is why I asked.

My opinion is in here. It should be pretty evident in the last post I had when I put emphasis on "myth."

There is some reason to why I put such an authoritarian tone to the post. You see, I used to play alot, I studied alot of other stuff, and there are alot of players I idolize like Dave Sirlin for SF, Seth Killian, and Viscant just naming a few. My reasoning is from personal experience combined with the fact that their reasonings are very similar to mine.

Originally posted by Bosco

Just to let you know, no one cares about your opinion. No one from Calgary, no one anywhere else.

This post shows just how narrow minded and dillusional you are. The fact Mummy-b responded asking about it disproves this. Anyways, I just finished dissing you hard on another thread for being stupid and impolite like you are now.

Mummy-B

07-16-2003, 03:12 AM

That's not a very good string of reasons to be very authoritative with an opinion, but whatever floats your boat.

As for Seth Killian, if you go to Domination 101, he has an article on "cheapness." It runs quite contrary to yours, because a general summary of that post is basically this: Scrubs are the only people that think cheap exists.

There are two things, balance and unbalance. Gouki's air fireball in ST is unbalanced because if you do it right, you can't do shit about it. Sentinel is balanced, because you can pick Cable or just about anyone solid with a Cyclops AA and you can deal with him.

Is Gouki cheap because of air fireballs? No. Am I cheap for picking a Cyclops AA to kick your Sent's ass, specifically? No.

Any level of cheap is scrubdom. Pure and simple. You can't back up cheap. It's like trying to tell me every African-American is actually African. You can come up with a million things that make it sound real close, but in the end, they're not African. You can try to justify cheap forever, but its never going to make it exist outside of scrubworld.

50mOrEcEnTz

07-16-2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by Mummy-B
Sentinel is balanced, because you can pick Cable or just about anyone solid with a Cyclops AA and you can deal with him.

yes...but a good sent is SOOO hard to beat, he is pushing the "balanced" boarderline...

Deathfist

07-16-2003, 11:21 AM

Mummy-b:
Sirlin's opinion of cheap is abusing glitches that cause the game to freeze up, permanently remove a character from the screen, etc is what I'm talking about when I say actual cheapness. 99% of the things that people complain about and call cheap don't fall into this category. Both Sirlin and Seth are correct. They say basically the same thing.

It's also important to note that it isn't always a good idea to take the easy way out. Sometimes you'll miss something that could prove useful if you restrict yourself soley to the best characters. Sometimes the weaker characters can teach you something that a stronger character can take advantage of that will go unnoticed otherwise that can prove useful. That is what I mean by cheaping yourself out. You may miss important match details by not knowing the match-ups properly.

Bosco:
There is a reason why you think this way. I believe it's because I like to experiment and dabble alot. Alittle before I was moving away I had dumped alot of characters that I used to use so that I could learn new ones. I decided to completely start over. It is during this time I had a major slump. While I was learning the new stuff and developing new strategies, I asked people to test some things I was working on and also couldn't resist trying to help others if I found something that I deemed useful. Thanks Bosco, I now know to keep my mouth shut even if it'll help someone out.

You also act like I wouldn't have improved any at all since moving out of the province. I have been gone since October first last year That's almost a year. If you honestly think I wouldn't have improved since then, you are the dumbest person on the forums.

Deathfist

07-16-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Bosco

We've played you since the game first came out. And guess what. You still can't do AHVB. :lol:

That just prooves you haven't played me. I simply try to avoid using it because you can't always be guaranteed to have meter. I play like I don't have it so that I can either encourage more stupidity on the part of my opponents, or know what to do when I don't have meter. Looks like your arguement just went up in flames. There is a fine line between can't and won't. There isn't a MvC2 player alive that can't AHVB. Unless he isn't using Cable at the time that is.

I also have moved out of province October first last year, so there's no way that your statement even has a remote shread of accuracy. This just makes your statement even more laughable. You are probably the most dilusional person on the continent let alone on the forums.

Want more evidence? First look at what you just said about me. I can't AHVB? What were you thinking :lol:? Even if it was true when I was in Calgary [which it wasn't] I would obviously have corrected something like that in almost a year.

The second piece of evidence is discussing it in a thread that is supposed to be debating whether or not Rugal is cheap or not. Not only are you talking about MvC2 instead of CvS2, but you are also taking about outdated info you have on me and acting like it's still fact. The past doesen't equal the future.

All you've done so far is...
1]Make yourself look dumber and dumber
2]Provide me with entertainment by showing me your lack of intelligence and dillusional nature.

I actually find it fun explaining how brainless you are, and I HATE insulting people. We must do more of this sometime.
:)

Mummy-B

07-16-2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Deathfist
Mummy-b:
Sirlin's opinion of cheap is abusing glitches that cause the game to freeze up, permanently remove a character from the screen, etc is what I'm talking about when I say actual cheapness. 99% of the things that people complain about and call cheap don't fall into this category. Both Sirlin and Seth are correct. They say basically the same thing.

It's also important to note that it isn't always a good idea to take the easy way out. Sometimes you'll miss something that could prove useful if you restrict yourself soley to the best characters. Sometimes the weaker characters can teach you something that a stronger character can take advantage of that will go unnoticed otherwise that can prove useful. That is what I mean by cheaping yourself out. You may miss important match details by not knowing the match-ups properly.

That is nice and all, but you need to forumate a way to back yourself up without depending largely on other people. As far as I am concerned, and I think many people will agree, abusing something like the Gambit glitch is not cheap, it's unbalanced AND it's stupid. Why? Because it freezes the game and you can't play anymore until time runs out. The main part of that is "you can't play anymore," which is the sole reason why MvC2 is created - so you can play it. Someone yelling, "That's so fucking cheap!" is still going to sound ridiculous compared to the guy yelling, "That's so fucking stupid, now we can't play for <insert time left in match>." See, this is stupid, and not cheap, because not only does it irritate the opponent, but it irritates everyone in line waiting to play as well.

Something like Roll Canceling? That's not cheap. It's not unbalancing. It's perfectly fine. It's a glitch, but it's perfectly fine. Why? You can throw it. You can block it. You can RC back at it. You can Parry it. You can JD it. You can hit someone in recovery. There's a long list of shit you can do to it.

Just to let you know, the only team in MvC2 that I screw with (I don't play the game) is Strider/Doom and I don't even use Sentinel on it. On top of that, in the game that I DO play, I use A/C King, K Maki, and those two should be enough (among others). The only top tiers I ever use is A Sakura and <insert Groove> Cammy. If anyone knows about non-top tier characters and match ups, trust me I'm one of them. Shit, I even playe Art with A King it was sad but still fun...

anti-retard

07-17-2003, 03:39 PM

I think it's fucking weird that some people (Mummy-B) don't think cheap exists. The only reason SOME retar...i mean people (pros of course :rolleyes: ) believe there is no such thing as cheap is because all their fellow player friends use the same cheap tactics.

But LISTEN UP PEOPLE! CHEAP EXISTS!

Cheap in SF (and any other game for that matter) means finding success without working too hard.

Sagat's c. fierce IS cheap because it's a totally dominant move and it's EASY to do.

Cable is CHEAP because to win, you just have to capitalize on ONE FUCKING MISTAKE.

On the other hand, Raiden is NOT cheap because he doesn't have any dominant moves.

Wolverine is NOT cheap in MVC2 because it's hard to force openings with him AND EVEN WHEN YOU DO GET AN OPENING HE DOES ONE FUCKING TENTH OF THE DAMAGE MAGNETO, CABLE, OR SENTINEL CAN DO.

Now, do I cry CHEAP!!!! No!!!! Why??? Because I play with good people who use the same cheap tactics against me. This means we're on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

But does that mean cheap DOESN'T exist?

HELL NO!!!!!!!!! CHEAP EXISTS...IT'S JUST NOT AN ISSUE AT HIGH LEVELS BECAUSE EVERYONE IS CHEAP.

Mummy-B

07-17-2003, 06:08 PM

Sagat's c.fp is not totally dominant. Not even AHVB x3 is totally dominant. They are fucked up, but not dominant.

anyway, think what you like. everyone has thier own opinion.

anti-retard

07-19-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Mummy-B
Sagat's c.fp is not totally dominant. Not even AHVB x3 is totally dominant. They are fucked up, but not dominant.

anyway, think what you like. everyone has thier own opinion.

way to pick out phrases and use em to ur advantage. do u really think i meant totally dominant as in NO WAY OF STOPPING it. Of course not. I said there is such as thing as cheap...i never said FREE. Although if you wanna get picky, there are free matchups in some of the more broken games such as MVC2. Storm vs. Zangief anyone?

Mummy-B

07-19-2003, 02:07 PM

Chill dude. I just picked out your own examples, how can I read your mind man? This is a message board, it's hard to even pick up sarcasm. And usually, "totally dominating" does mean that it's pretty unstoppable, I think if you didn't mean that you needed to pick a slightly different way to express it.

As for the Cable capitalizing on one mistake deal, isn't that what half the top tiers are? Especially Magneto. That's a generalization if you ask me.

Rugal 3:16

11-14-2003, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by anti-retard
I think it's fucking weird that some people (Mummy-B) don't think cheap exists. The only reason SOME retar...i mean people (pros of course :rolleyes: ) believe there is no such thing as cheap is because all their fellow player friends use the same cheap tactics.

But LISTEN UP PEOPLE! CHEAP EXISTS!

Cheap in SF (and any other game for that matter) means finding success without working too hard.

Sagat's c. fierce IS cheap because it's a totally dominant move and it's EASY to do.

Cable is CHEAP because to win, you just have to capitalize on ONE FUCKING MISTAKE.

On the other hand, Raiden is NOT cheap because he doesn't have any dominant moves.

Wolverine is NOT cheap in MVC2 because it's hard to force openings with him AND EVEN WHEN YOU DO GET AN OPENING HE DOES ONE FUCKING TENTH OF THE DAMAGE MAGNETO, CABLE, OR SENTINEL CAN DO.

Now, do I cry CHEAP!!!! No!!!! Why??? Because I play with good people who use the same cheap tactics against me. This means we're on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

But does that mean cheap DOESN'T exist?

HELL NO!!!!!!!!! CHEAP EXISTS...IT'S JUST NOT AN ISSUE AT HIGH LEVELS BECAUSE EVERYONE IS CHEAP.

So your point is???

cheap or not, it's in the game.. DEAL WITH IT!!!!