Ryu's most dependable Super Art

[Humble Breaker]

I've got a question for above-average and high-level players. It's about Ryu's Super Arts, and which one is more dependable than the other..

The Shinkuu Hadoken (Super Art I) vs the Shin-Shoryuken (Super Art II).

Which one would you prefer someone use in EVO this year to bring Ryu to his maximum potential? Also, how would I best utilize the super?

A bonus question: The top-tiers are Yun, Chun, and Ken, right? Which characters are better than the other? I heard there was some rock-paper-scissors situation to it all..

Another bonus question: Is Urien a top-tier, as well? Does he outbeat Yun, Chun, or Ken?

[J Blaze]

Originally posted by Humble Breaker


Another bonus question: Is Urien a top-tier, as well? Does he outbeat Yun, Chun, or Ken?

Urien is not top tier, although I think he has a fair chance against Chun li and Yun. Ken is a little hard for Urien, in my opinion.

Examine the top 3. They are very well balanced and can hold their own against any character. Urien, on the other hand, doesn't quite have that balance. He gets creamed, for example, to Makoto. In my opinion, I also think he has an unfavourable matchup against Ken and Yang.

That is why Urien is not top tier. And it is for similar reasons that Dudley is not considered top tier either. (although I think he's damn close)

[Rei]

Originally posted by Humble Breaker
I've got a question for above-average and high-level players. It's about Ryu's Super Arts, and which one is more dependable than the other..

The Shinkuu Hadoken (Super Art I) vs the Shin-Shoryuken (Super Art II).

Which one would you prefer someone use in EVO this year to bring Ryu to his maximum potential? Also, how would I best utilize the super?

A bonus question: The top-tiers are Yun, Chun, and Ken, right? Which characters are better than the other? I heard there was some rock-paper-scissors situation to it all..

Another bonus question: Is Urien a top-tier, as well? Does he outbeat Yun, Chun, or Ken?
It is all risk vs reward. SAI is low risk, low reward, SAII has higher risk, because there is more work involved in setting up the super, and it yields higher reward. SAIII has the highest risk and highest reward.

The main problem that many people have with SAIII is that you have to be on constant rush-down mode to use it. Otherwise, you can't take full advantage of getting stun off of a half-charged SAIII that was combo-ed in. Here is an example. You jump in and land the Fierce - Roundhouse combo, dash backwards, if your opponent jumped, you do standing roundhouse (which launches them) fierce fireball, (juggle) cancel into denjin (360 motion for half charge) release just after the fireball hits, and you get the combo. After stun, two whiffed standing strongs, jump in with Fierce, standing knee into ex-donkey kick then fierce srk.

Obviously more work than sitting forward -- SAI.

(Excuse any mistakes in the setup above, as I'm at work, and I'm trying to recall correctly Frankie's Denjin Ryu from SBO qualifier videos.)

[kal el]

:lol:...

EX-donkey kick? That's a good one! i think i'll call it that now.

Anyways.

Most would use Shinkuu as their super of choice, not only due to the low risk involved, but for the EXes you get. If you watch high level Ryu's, you don't see a lot of supers connecting due to the fact that he can't charge his meter quickly enough. Denjin can be charged quickly, but not too many players use it.

[sHiNeRiK]

Shinkuu is the most useful against another person.

[mopreme]

Shinshoryuken is the best. Come on, look how cool it looks. It freezes up the game for like 5 seconds while it zooms in on each hit. Your opponent has to sit there and watch all this as the game rubs it in that he got hit by it. Then Ryu punches him like 8 miles up in the air. Like you could come up with a cooler move. Shinshoryuken is top tier when it comes to awesomeness.

[arcticninja]

hahah :lol:


btw, I prefer SA3, but all 3 supers are good.

[ClosetRemy]

I think the fireball super is most useful, but there are some damaging links and combos into the shinshoryuken. And I agree, it's totally the best-looking super art.

The fireball super gives you the most ex moves, which ryu isn't dependant on but still come in handy. Also, you can link ryu's command overhead into it, which is slow to come out but is rarely parried when timed to link and hits enough, in my limited experience. If you get them in the corner, you can expend both supers without too much damage reduction on the second.

Some cautionary notes, though: It's easier to land a shinshoryuken after an air reset than the fireball super. It's really hard to time the fireball super, actually.

The short-short-super technique works well, and you can cancel a fireball into the super if you see one of your combos connecting.

I'm pretty sure that people consider makoto among the top-tier characters.

As for who's the best among them, I complain about ken all the time, but yun has that annoying dive kick which is pretty much completely safe in all situations unless the opponent anticipates it. And if he mixes it up at all, you're in trouble, because the jump and dive kick is crazy fast. In fact, he has a lot of safe moves and combos that can only be red-parried if you want to retaliate. However, chun li is much the same. I think she's better by a slight margin becuase she doesn't take as much damage as yun, and has many links into her super that are just so easy and so safe.

[exodus]

everyone has basically made all the valid points. in tournament play, you should stick to SA1, since in tourney play, you aim to be as safe as possible. the additional EX, and the short short super, overhead super, universal overhead super, chip damage, anti-air, blah blah blah, are all great factors of SA1.

mopreme: of course it's the coolest looking super, but i parry it all the time to snuff it in RYU'S FACE MUHAHAHHAHA :lol: i jump in on SA2 ryus when they have full meter all the time. :evil:

top tiers US is slightly different from top tier japan. face it, how many US players use yun effectively, and use him in tourney play? not many [no disrespect to those who do, such as pyro]. chun and ken on the other hand, are the universal top tier. makoto and urien are also top tiers, but mostly in japan. since some japanese players will be playing at EVO, count them in. :P

but seriously -- don't worry about top tiers -- many other players are coming, and they're probably using Q or elena or sean. practice against everything.

[AneurysmX]

I dont care what anyone says, Chun is in a tier of her own.

[J Blaze]

Originally posted by exodus

top tiers US is slightly different from top tier japan. face it, how many US players use yun effectively, and use him in tourney play? not many [no disrespect to those who do, such as pyro]. chun and ken on the other hand, are the universal top tier. makoto and urien are also top tiers, but mostly in japan. since some japanese players will be playing at EVO, count them in. :P

but seriously -- don't worry about top tiers -- many other players are coming, and they're probably using Q or elena or sean. practice against everything.

wrong thread to be discussing tiers, but how can Urien be top tier if he gets raped by Makoto? And how can Makoto be top tier if she gets raped by Yun?

No disrespect, but the game is the same from one country to another. Top tier in Japan should be the same as in America, or Europe. What I'm saying is that these 3 characters are top tier, regardless of the players. Don't think about the players. I mean, I suck with Yun, does that mean he's not top tier? Hell, I can only play Urien, does that mean he's top tier? Nonono....

Speaking of Q....I love that fight in Coop Cup 2 where TK (Q) rapes that Chun Li. You little bitch, take that!

[Obliterate]

I think all of Ryu's supers have potential. It also depends on who you are playing and how skilled they are. A person who does not know how to parry the Denjin (I haven't even seen someone do this yet, I've parried like an incompletely charged Denjin like 2 to 3 hits) will get destroyed by it...but that's against a newb. I find that if I pick the Denjin I play Ryu very offensively. I prefer either the Ishinkuu Hadouken or Shin-Shoryuken. Ishinkuu Hadouken is easier to land and has incredible combo potential if you can get them in the corner. However, the Shin-Shoryuken is a damn strong super, yeah it leaves you wide open if you whiff...and yeah you have to be close, but hell it takes off so much. I would definetly pick the Shin-Shoryuken if I was playing against someone in a tournament who I thought had more skills then me, cause then at least if I started getting my ass kicked I might have the chance of landing a high damage super art. It also works incredibly well after parrying a jump in attack, but then so does the Ishinkuu. Pick what you feel most comfortable with.

[exodus]

Originally posted by J Blaze
wrong thread to be discussing tiers, but how can Urien be top tier if he gets raped by Makoto? And how can Makoto be top tier if she gets raped by Yun?

wrong thread? breaker specifically asked about top tiers, in addition to his ryu question :P and you can't single out opponents just to say someone's not top tier. yun doesn't have it easier with tall characters, chun has a hard time vs Q. does that mean they're not top tiers?


No disrespect, but the game is the same from one country to another. Top tier in Japan should be the same as in America, or Europe. What I'm saying is that these 3 characters are top tier, regardless of the players. Don't think about the players. I mean, I suck with Yun, does that mean he's not top tier? Hell, I can only play Urien, does that mean he's top tier? Nonono....


not true at all -- top tiers are clearly determined by region. sure, if you technically say top tier, it means best characters overall -- but it's pointless to say that a character is top tier unless players can use them effectively. breaker wants to know what the tiers look like for EVO -- and if for instance, somehow, noone plays yun or chun at EVO [laugh] -- then why would i even mention them as top tiers? besides, top tiers were and are determined, by consistent placement at tournaments.

[arcticninja]

umm...I think you're confusing a character's tiering with their popularity =\

[exodus]

nah -- i was elaborating on top tier in relation to tournaments, since he asked about EVO. it doesn't do him any good if i told him yun was a top tier, and then he ends up facing chun and ken the entire tournament. but if he was asking for the purpose of learning characters that have many advantages, then of course i agree that it has very little to do with region.

[Homer Pimpson]

Shin sho is his best IMO. Short short shin sho is strong. Standing strong into shinsho is owns 2.

[anti-retard]

sa1 is his best. also, what the hell is an ishinku hadoken? is that as good as his ishin shoryuken?

[Ryu & Ken]

Originally posted by anti-retard
sa1 is his best. also, what the hell is an ishinku hadoken? is that as good as his ishin shoryuken?

:lol: man thats some funny shit. I use Shin Shoryuken in tour and I have only started 2 attend and have only been to 2. I find I can land the shin on any char but will find ot the hardest to land on Chun, well parry one of her HP or sweep then do it, plus u can do a side kick after. Plus the shin is near enough invin against any other move head on, u can u it getting up and to the dude who said when peeps try 2 do it when I jump in. Yes I admit I do that from time 2 time OR I will wait and see if U stick out a punch or kick and then do it or parry it then start it. I like his HP into a D.P , cancel into a shin shoiryuken and end it with a side kick or if in the corner end it with anoth D.P

[Izagaia]

Flexibility versus sheer damage yeild- I choose flexibility.

Mainly for the reasons everyone else has already noted. Combination choice, ex potential, ease-of-use, and defensive posturing.

I am a conservative player. The choice is obvious for me; sa1, shinkuu hadoken. However if the shin shoryuken was not so damn easy to parry (ground or air), I would choose it for the "coolness" factor. :D

[ClosetRemy]

Here's a reason to use the shin shoryuken: It can link after the toward-fierce two-hit.

[kal el]

:confused:...

Linking from towards + HP is cool n'all, but can you actually rely on that uber slow punch to connect in a match?

[Chunli89]

u drug the other guy first. then t+hp, super. it's easy as 1-2-3

[Mufasa]

Safe ways to land shinsho (safe means that u can be sure it will connect):

· Linking after t+hp
· short short super
· UOH super (on wake up)
· Jumping attack, fierce, super
· Standing close MK link into super (only Dudley, Alex, Necro, Remy and Hugo...maybe someone else)
· Parry super
· Punishing

U only have to success with one of this ways and u have almost won the round :D

There are more ways but not that safe:

· Opponent jumps in, close jab anti air. If he parries, super.
· After a connected shoryuken u have a split second to decide whether cancelling into shinsho or not.
· Some links like MP, super but they involve that ur opponent was close and crouching
· After a reset (close jab for example)

If u know more ways please share.

[Ryu & Ken]

wait 4 the other guy 2 throw out a limb then super

[Kayin]

Shin Shoryuken! It has both power and style, just how I like it. Heheheh.

[loborine]

okay i found cheap tickets to california and would like to know when are the evolution normally held and where.

also my parents said they would pay the ride if i get top 5 in this charlotte tournament (southern hostility) damn, lots of pressure.

if any one know holla back

[locustcheese]

Hey, if I get top 5 will your parents pay ME to go to Cali?

[J Blaze]

Originally posted by locustcheese
Hey, if I get top 5 will your parents pay ME to go to Cali?

there will probably be more than 5 players in the tourney. ;)

[loborine]

hahahah dumbasses!

very funny but does any one know when or where the tournament will be held and im aiming for top 3.:bluu:


holla back:D

[Blazn]

for me Id prefer tio stick with shinku hadouken becuz it can store more EX
and its very good to counter with.

and its good for playing safe and u have 2 chances if u screw up with the first one.

and good for distance, so what if u can parry it all easily. most ppl cant resist and try to parry it all and if they parry jump in and screw up the timing.

I dont really like the shinshoryuken becuz of the range and usually if I have the bar the opponent wil try to keep his distance
and if I miss Im screwed.

[Muskau]

From watching tourney footage it seems Shinku Hadoken is the least chosen super art. Usually the Ryu player is going for a knockdown Denjin followup(Valle), or the Ryu player manages to get a quick parry/Overhead/sliding punch and cancels straight into ShinSho(Daigo).

Doesn't seem to be much Shinku tourney footage floating around so I figure it mustn't be as threatening.

Plus it seems Daigo switched to Ken as well?

[Gimpy]

I know one set up I use to do with Ryu and SA2 is after I knock someone on the ground(throw, sweep, anti-air, etc), as soon as they got up I would hit them with duck short into DP, then cancel int the Shin-Shoryuken. But that shit is something you do not want to do against good players in a tournament. But to answer the question, I think SA1 is the best one.:cool:

[paulee]

Originally posted by Muskau
From watching tourney footage it seems Shinku Hadoken is the least chosen super art. Usually the Ryu player is going for a knockdown Denjin followup(Valle), or the Ryu player manages to get a quick parry/Overhead/sliding punch and cancels straight into ShinSho(Daigo).

Doesn't seem to be much Shinku tourney footage floating around so I figure it mustn't be as threatening.

Plus it seems Daigo switched to Ken as well?

omg..!! did you make that up yourself???

valle NEVER uses denjin in 3s .. that's Frankie3s..
(valle whores SAI(hadoken) when he actually decides to play)

Daigo into ShinSho..?? Daigo plays Ken! Perhaps you're watching footage of Georgia.. or hell.. someone else who's NOT daigo??

[ClosetRemy]

Seriously. Daigo does not play ryu, and valle uses SA1 for good reason.

There's plenty of exs for the general purpose rushdown and extremely safe c.forward -> ex fireball crap. Also the super connects from a much further range than ssrk (short jab short instead of short short, low forward, etc.). It can also be linked from a very meaty toward+strong overhead. SA2 requires you to be really close or for your opponent to recklessly jump at you. The denjin is a gamble for both parties.

[Muskau]

Well I guess this footage I've gotten must have been labelled wrong then, because I have some footage Valle with him using Ryu-Denjin, and Footage Labelled 2000-04-16 Daigo with ShinSho.

And yes your right, most of the other footage I have does have Valle using Shinku. Didn't he use Denjin in the Japan trip?
And since the Daigo Ryu footage seems to be very old, I suppose its before he switched to Ken?

Sorry if its wrong, but its what the footage says.... :confused:

[Muskau]

Sorry about the footage but I'm still wondering if Daigo tried Ryu in 2000 and then switched to Ken??

[BillyKane]

Valle used Yang in the first Japan trip and Ken at SBO.

Daigo was already using Ken in 2000 (Japan vs USA). He also used Ryu for a few matches in the DC Tokyo Tournament. Other than that I've only seen him play Ryu in casual play, always Ken in tourneys.

[Muskau]

ok thanks for the help

[Donkus]

The Shinshoryuken is the most drawn out, boring super ever. It would be 10x better if it didn't take 11 minutes to watch after hitting someone with it.
The super was much better in New Generation when it hit 3 times for the same damage really quickly.

[Ryu & Ken]

hell no, reply that SHIN SRK shit, u deserve to watch it, if u connect with it, I like 2 watch it crack 4 major hits

[Muskau]

Been downloading a crapload of Ryu 3S footage the past week and been watching them closely. Things that seem to generally happen with each super:

I Shinkuu Hadoken - Player cr. SP at long range or after a knockdown to build meter, frequent use of EX Hadokens as pokes or followups, if they have enough meter they may try for cr sk. x2 or UOH, shinkuu hadoken or anti-air(parried) into Shinkuu, thought they seem to prefer just sticking to EX hadokens unless it will finish the opponent.

II Shin ShoRyuKen - Players cr. SP much like Shinkuu players to build meter but use EX Hadokens less frequently, preferring to have the 'ace in the hole' as a last ditch comeback. It also might allow Ryu a psychological advantage.

III Denjin Hadoken - Players cr. SP to build meter, use EX Hadoken possibly even less frequently than ShinSho players, often saving meter for Denjin followups to knockdowns or utilised in close range combos and poke strings.

[nanitaberu]

Originally posted by Muskau
I Shinkuu Hadoken - Player cr. SP at long range or after a knockdown to build meter, frequent use of EX Hadokens as pokes or followups, if they have enough meter they may try for cr sk. x2 or UOH, shinkuu hadoken or anti-air(parried) into Shinkuu, thought they seem to prefer just sticking to EX hadokens unless it will finish the opponent.

used like ken's SA3.. if you think about it. allows EX moves and still have enough to do SA, not much anti air properties, flexible in combos


II Shin ShoRyuKen - Players cr. SP much like Shinkuu players to build meter but use EX Hadokens less frequently, preferring to have the 'ace in the hole' as a last ditch comeback. It also might allow Ryu a psychological advantage.

i must agree with your "psychological advantage" part


III Denjin Hadoken - Players cr. SP to build meter, use EX Hadoken possibly even less frequently than ShinSho players, often saving meter for Denjin followups to knockdowns or utilised in close range combos and poke strings.

everyone cr.SPs to build meter you really didn't have to mention that. most people know how to parry/jump out of charged denjins. the most you can get is like 2 hits from denjins, so i much rather choose sa1. i think denjin-ryus are very limited in their fighting style.

i use sa1 myself, but when i need that 'psychological advantage' i pick sa2. like when i'm getting my ass handed to me

[Ryu & Ken]

word up 2 SA 2 ( shin shoryuken )

[KENSHIIN-HIMURA]

id have to say the shin shoryuken. reason being is because it takes away a great deal of damage and its easy to combo into. i also say this because im an in your face type of fighter.

[Irennicus]

Originally posted by loborine
hahahah dumbasses!

very funny but does any one know when or where the tournament will be held and im aiming for top 3.:bluu:


holla back:D

No offense, but from your other posts and your vids you made of Urien in 3S I'm going to have to say you shouldn't hold your breath. There are going to be people there that will blow you out of the water, man.

[greensyo]

SA2 does have its advantages mostly psycological. Who the hell is going to try something stupid against a full Sa2. There is also the high low game you can play with this super so thats another plus. The only problem I have with it is fighting the 1st round. Basically, you have to try to beat your opponet with no supers and very little ex's. If you lose the 1st round, you have the meter for a quick 2nd round win. Then the 3rd round comes and its another no SA2 fight. Even if you managed to build a meter in the 3rd round, chances are they have very little life thus defeting the purpose of charging it.

When i play sa2 i try to build it up as fast as i can and try to play the psych game. I try only use it when we split a round or if i win the first round. Once its built up i go for the ex moves or go for an ex move after a mistake by the opponet. I guess you have to just pick your attacks with it and not get carried away with the ex's.

the sa1 when comboed in is brutal but you have to your meter fast. I guess it would have to be what character youre going against

mk,ex joudan,jab, ex fireball pwnz

[kal el]

mk,ex joudan,jab, ex fireball pwnz

:wtf:

that don't work, bro :lol:.

:rock:

[greensyo]

the ex joudan off the wall jab air reset?

[kal el]

EX Joudan -> s. jab -> Shinkuu will work.

but you wrote EX Joudan -> s. jab -> EX fireball. that won't.

and that s. jab reset is not worth doing. you don't get any damage bonuses and you're giving your opponent a chance to parry out. just go straight super or roundhouse Tatsumaki.

:rock:

[greensyo]

and that s. jab reset is not worth doing. you don't get any damage bonuses and you're giving your opponent a chance to parry out. just go straight super or roundhouse Tatsumaki.

:rock:

good point and it has been parried before when i have tried it but i land it more than they parry it i go for the roundhouse tatsumaki or SRK sometimes i just like the air reset

will a ex joudan (off the wall) standing fierce put them into an air reset? or is it just jabs that reset them?

[kal el]

will a ex joudan (off the wall) standing fierce put them into an air reset? or is it just jabs that reset them?

technically, anything that'll knock your opponent upright during a juggle sequence is a reset. by upright i mean that your opponent isn't flat on his (or her) back when in the air. so going by that definition, Ryu's s. fierce will reset his opponent after an EX Joudan. i doubt you can follow that up with Shinkuu though.

:rock:

[greensyo]

just curious about the air reset system everytime ive seen it done it was with a jab

[eddieW]

I use SAI for the ex fireballs to close in the gap because ryu's normals arnt as good as kens.. fuck seans normals are better lol... But ryu is the old fashion shoto with the same normals he always had... SAI allows me to have more flexibility. and the ex fireball changes his ground game completly and gives u momentem, its almost like playing ST ryu using red fireballs hehe.. u get a knockdown allowing u to rush in... plus u can do combos with ex moves that do more than his super fireball alone... jumpin fp, fp, ex "donkey kick" dash in deep fp does alot of damage!!! or in the corner punish with a c.mk, ex hurkick, super, ex'donkey, finish with f.dp.. thats shinsho damage I think!! or just a simple shrt,shrt, super, another super juggle, hurricane kick does over half i think on most characters............ EX fireball is too good fast start up and it travels really fast, at the right distance ull know when to throw one and its hard to jump over u have to really anticipate the fireball to jumpover it so ur forcing ur opponents to guess a jump in allowing more openings...... uhhh sorry mopreme i use ryu sometimes now lol

[greensyo]

is s.fp, ex joudan the best way to land the ex joudan

my cross over atempts get parried i usually catch them off a missed super, missed SRK, parry, or they land it too deep with a jump attack

does anyone do d.mk, ex joudan?
fwd.mp (only the second hit connects) ex joudan?
and any other ex joudan setups that you might have

my friend has this annoying tactic where if you come in with a cross over and you try to go for that s.fp all he has to do is duck the whole time and if the cross over doesnt link ryu whiffs the s.fp and leaves him open... wouldnt a s.mk be the best choice if the s.fp is not guranteed?

also is it wise to play the ex joudan range and try to catch your opponet off guard?

[Dark Shinkuu]

you could always do close s.mk into ex jeri kick if you feel the fierce is gonna whiff. :clap: And from the close mk you can go into a fireball or a throw or whatever you want. Plus the recoveries alot better than if you were to toss out that slow fierce.

[greensyo]

i noticed that his close s.mk and regular s.mk are different can his s.mk the non knee one be comboed into a ex joudi?

[Dark Shinkuu]

No it doesn't
Make sure your close when your comboing the ex joudan.
I think although I'm not sure that crouching mk combos into light joudan, correct me if I'm wrong though.

[eddieW]

well c.mk doesn't combo into ex kick i know for sure... i just use c.fp, it always work for me...

oh yea saIII can be used effectively, charge it fast do setups that lead to a jab fireball cancel to super, it can be parried but its harder to time plus while they are parrying dashin and crouch mk, hurricane kick for free damage... :badboy:

[Dark Shinkuu]

yah c.mk doesn't combo into ex joudan but it does combo into short joudan. This I know for sure, cause I tested it today :clap:

[ramza]

I use SAI for the ex fireballs to close in the gap because ryu's normals arnt as good as kens.. fuck seans normals are better lol... But ryu is the old fashion shoto with the same normals he always had...

Of course to make up for it, Ryu has the vicious kara throw that Ken doesn't have :tup:

[eddieW]

yep kara throw mind games... c.lk, throw. then c.lk,wait then c.lk x2 finish with saI, too good!!!