Alpha 3 no longer in tournaments?

[RoninDRE-X]

Since alpha 3 wasn't in evo does that mean the game is gone from tournament play???

Because I just started to REALLY learn this game and enjoy it and now I find out it's probably not going to be played competitively. I'm a noob and I was looking forward to maybe doing a tournament or something...:(

[SaBrE]

yeah its dead in the us totally as far as evolution is concerned. kinda garbage when st still gets play and a3 can draw similar number of players as that game. midwest and ecc still hold a3 tho so thats good. some places hold local tourneys. but its dead for the most part. like st is dead(but still gets play in evo, go figure)

[JumpsuitJesse]

Originally posted by SaBrE
yeah its dead in the us totally as far as evolution is concerned. kinda garbage when st still gets play and a3 can draw similar number of players as that game. midwest and ecc still hold a3 tho so thats good. some places hold local tourneys. but its dead for the most part. like st is dead(but still gets play in evo, go figure)

ST is arguably the greatest Street Fighter game ever. It is Capcom fighting in it's purest form.

The reason it still get's play in tournaments is because it is the polished version of the Street Fighter 2 series....the series which revolutionized the gaming industry to begin with. It's a long tradition to have an original SF 2 game in major tournaments because it stands(atleast how I see it)as an homage to the roots of all capcom fighting games.

ST is not a broken game like Alpha 3(aka V-ism fighter). Yeah, its fun and all but once you get into top tournament play you see nothing but V ism.

And before anyone says that ST is all about counter characters, just take a look at the top 2 finishers at EVO2k3. Ryu and Chun Li. Yes, ST has tiers but its a game that doesnt really rely on easy gimmicks like V-ism guard break life draining tactics, or roll cancelling.

ST is a game that hones the basic building blocks of all capcom fighting games......strategy, wits/mind games, and skill.

ST may be dead to you or in your area, but it will never be dead to the legions of gamers out there who play capcom games. It constantly gets tons of play where i live. Like I said before....ST is Capcom fighting in is purest form.

Personally, I like A2 more than A3 and I consider it to be far superior to A1 and A3. Ask any top tournament player and ask them which ALpha game they like best...A2 or A3?? Ask them why....

There's your answer as to why A3 is no longer in tournament lineups.

[RagingStormX]

I speak on behalf of all the players in Killeen.ST = Greatness. Fei-Long is the shit.

[GeekBoy]

It's all about 3s...

[yes4me]

Arhhh... if they could release a even more polished version of A3 that would be good... just weaken a bit V-ISM, make some nobody play character a little better like Cody, Guy, Birdy and Honda and it should be perfect.

[margalis]

Well said Jesse.

ST and A3 are both "classic" games. It only makes sense to include one classic, and ST is the better game.

ST is more fun to watch, has more character diversity, etc etc. A3 is a good game, but you can't play all good games in tourneys. IMO it would be cooler to have a game like MSH (the classic vs. style game, even though it isn't technically versus) than A3.

A3 is basically a cult game at this point, not a lot of people play it and there doesn't seem to be much new happening in it.

[bushin187]

margalis and jesse I think your missing the point. Nobody is attacking ST. Nobody is saying a3 should replace ST. A3 and st are in a similar state and if it's true that a3 can draw a good number of players I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be in tournaments.


these threads tend to end up in flame wars . :lol:

[UltraZangiefJr.]

MSH at Evo would be so awesome. As would KI, not KI2. KI2 is garbage. It would be interesting to see how some of these MvC2 players do with only one character and no assists.

[Nibor]

Originally posted by JumpsuitJesse


ST is arguably the greatest Street Fighter game ever. It is Capcom fighting in it's purest form.

The reason it still get's play in tournaments is because it is the polished version of the Street Fighter 2 series....the series which revolutionized the gaming industry to begin with. It's a long tradition to have an original SF 2 game in major tournaments because it stands(atleast how I see it)as an homage to the roots of all capcom fighting games.

ST is not a broken game like Alpha 3(aka V-ism fighter). Yeah, its fun and all but once you get into top tournament play you see nothing but V ism.

And before anyone says that ST is all about counter characters, just take a look at the top 2 finishers at EVO2k3. Ryu and Chun Li. Yes, ST has tiers but its a game that doesnt really rely on easy gimmicks like V-ism guard break life draining tactics, or roll cancelling.

ST is a game that hones the basic building blocks of all capcom fighting games......strategy, wits/mind games, and skill.

ST may be dead to you or in your area, but it will never be dead to the legions of gamers out there who play capcom games. It constantly gets tons of play where i live. Like I said before....ST is Capcom fighting in is purest form.

Personally, I like A2 more than A3 and I consider it to be far superior to A1 and A3. Ask any top tournament player and ask them which ALpha game they like best...A2 or A3?? Ask them why....

There's your answer as to why A3 is no longer in tournament lineups.

the reasons you gave aren't really why a3 is no longer in tournament. You're basically saying that (1.) a3 is broken because of V-ism causing people not to want to play and (2.) a2 is better than a3 so people would rather have a2 tournaments. The second point isn't really a point and its not proven and doesn't have any evidence to support it so i'm not going to address it because my argument would just be 'you're wrong, more people like alpha 3'

I've been hearing this complaint for a while and its beginning to get annoying. V-ism is not the only usable ism in a3 and in low to upper mid level play A-ism can compete almost nearly as much. Low to upper mid level play makes up 99% of the people who would be playing the game if it was in tournaments. Sure for the 1% of players who can play at the level where v-ism is the only ism (besides a-'sim) the game does become v-ism fighter, but why should that minority discourage a3 from being in tournaments.

The real reasons a3 isn't in tournaments anymore (or isn't played so much) are that it has a steep learning curve and all the console versions of it suck (sorry i'm not even a saturn version fan).

[margalis]

I don't want to start a flame war either...bottom line is not that many people are interested in watching or playing A3 anymore. Another year of A3 at Evo would have bored most people.

[FMJaguar]

People always back Alpha 3 saying the stereotypes are exaggerated and unfounded, and that in reality, most high level A3 play is fun and decently balanced.

Consider that we've never even gotten high level console play, but these SAME people are telling us that it would be crap, and not to even look at it competitvely. To me that sounds a little bit hypocritical, and in turn, any possible fans of A3 are being discouraged from trying the game BY the alpha 3 players themselves... no wonder it's not getting anywhere.

[Archer V2.0]

Nibor: i watched your NEC 3 tournament trailer.. what is that song at the end of it when cody vs akuma (you and Ino) are playing?.. i got that stuck in my head and cant get it out!

[s0nicb00mb0y]

'ST is arguably the greatest Street Fighter game ever. It is Capcom fighting in it's purest form.'

Well said Jesse. I couldn't agree more. And I also like A2 the most of that series. Does anyone play it any more though? There's no machine here (London, UK). I used to live in Toronto and bang them all up there in summer 1996. Retired from SF after that but playing ST again now, we have the odd tourney here, there are still some very good players and some even better ones who unfortunately don't want to play these days. We're trying to revive the scene so I need to find some motivation for them to play!

[TS]

If you want A3 in Evo or Apex, just throw a bitchfest for a year or so and it will be in...worked for the Third Strike players.

Even if V-ISM were the only suitable ISM in higher level play (it isn't)...so what? I can name ten competitive characters off of the top of my head. What if the 3S characters only have one good super? I guess that means it's a terrible game.

ST at Evo...an N.Chun beat an Old Sagat (because Choi choked on the last TU), and then lost to a Ryu. That says very little about the balance of the game. I agree with your point, but Evo is not the greatest example.

If I think HF is better than ST, does that mean HF should be at majors instead? No. Just like A2 and A3....

FMJ makes a good point...the A3 players are keeping A3 from being as popular as it could be, since many of us hate the PSX version (and it's not like everyone has a Saturn. They should, but they don't...) So maybe if people really want A3 at Evo, we should consider taking a step down and playing the PSX version instead. It's not like there was a shortage of A3 cabs anyway, AFAIK...they just decided not to use it/them.

Anyway, I say we get rid of Tekken 4 next year, and use that time for A3...but maybe that's just me.

[Archer V2.0]

A3 is much better than Tekken.. but i say take out tekken tag.. its worse than Tekken 4. and who WOULDNT like A3?... its one of capcom's purest fighting games.. custom combo is da shit.

[margalis]

Finally, something everyone can agree on: Tekken bites!

Well...maybe not bites, but having TWO Tekkens is a bit much. Better to have one game where everyone is on the same page competing at the highest levels.

That is another problem with having A3, then you have another game to split people's practice time, split the fields, etc. The quality of all the tourney's would suffer somewhat.

I'm sure one Tekken tourney (either Tag or 4, we all know 2 is the best Tekken though) would have been more exciting than one.

[Zigmover21]

but i say take out tekken tag.. its worse than Tekken 4

WTF?!? Please tell me you're joking.

T4 is long overdue for retirement. The only thing keeping that game alive is the fact that a lot of people play it who never played Tag. Otherwise, it's a shitty game.

Tag, on the other hand, is still looking good after all these years. It's arguably the ST of Namco fighters. After Tag and SC1, Namco's just gone way downhill.

[bison812]

You prefer T4 to Tag:lol: Then you are going to tel me that CvS2 is bettter then A3 right. IMO i think that both games are very funny to play.

[JIVE TURKEY JONES]

Originally posted by Archer V2.0
but i say take out tekken tag.. its worse than Tekken 4.
You have just lost any credibility to any past, present, and future posts. Forever.
Originally posted by TS
If you want A3 in Evo or Apex, just throw a bitchfest for a year or so and it will be in...worked for the Third Strike players.
Bitching is only a small part. The Cannons repeatedly said that people can express their opinion all they want on how good a game is. But if there's no scene for it, then they won't bother having it. 3rd Strike players actually got up and did something about it. They revived the scene. Started out with basic DC console tournaments. And even though 3rd Strike for DC isn't port perfect, they worked with what they had. We bugged the hell out of our Arcade manager to get 3rd Strike. After 2 months of bugging, they realized we were serious. So now we have one. Complaining about how good Alpha3 is, and how "wrong" it is not to have it won't help. You guys are going to have to make an A3 scene revival. The 3rd Strike fans did it. So there is no reason why you guy's can't. I'm pretty sure if 3rd Strike fans can deal with Dreamcast version frame differences, loss of links, much harder links, and lag on command inputs... then I'm pretty sure A3 fans can deal with the DC/PS2 differences. It's only to get the scene up again. Once it's up again, Arcades won't mind getting this older game back in. That's how 3rd Strike players did it. As much as I hate V-Akuma :p, I would love to see ALPHA3 back in APEX.

Jive Out!

[bushin187]

Originally posted by JIVE TURKEY JONES

You have just lost any credibility to any past, present, and future posts. Forever.

Bitching is only a small part. The Cannons repeatedly said that people can express their opinion all they want on how good a game is. But if there's no scene for it, then they won't bother having it. 3rd Strike players actually got up and did something about it. They revived the scene. Started out with basic DC console tournaments. And even though 3rd Strike for DC isn't port perfect, they worked with what they had. We bugged the hell out of our Arcade manager to get 3rd Strike. After 2 months of bugging, they realized we were serious. So now we have one. Complaining about how good Alpha3 is, and how "wrong" it is not to have it won't help. You guys are going to have to make an A3 scene revival. The 3rd Strike fans did it. So there is no reason why you guy's can't. I'm pretty sure if 3rd Strike fans can deal with Dreamcast version frame differences, loss of links, much harder links, and lag on command inputs... then I'm pretty sure A3 fans can deal with the DC/PS2 differences. It's only to get the scene up again. Once it's up again, Arcades won't mind getting this older game back in. That's how 3rd Strike players did it. As much as I hate V-Akuma :p, I would love to see ALPHA3 back in APEX.

Jive Out!


http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32089&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

To say, "oh, the players made a 3s scene, go make a a3 scene" is easier said than done. It's a unfair comparison. The DC kiddies at least have their near-perfect port to practice on, so they can practice it for when they go to a tourney at their local arcade/console warrior tourney. ppl who want to play A3 have NOTHING, first of all the game is not even in that many arcades, and there are no good ports outside of Saturn and arcade rom.

Because of this, I don't see A3 having a resurgence anytime soon. That's sad, because it's such a great game..way better than 3s IMO.

[Archer V2.0]

what, i cant have my own opinion? you have lost your humanity if you dont believe in opinion.

[JIVE TURKEY JONES]

Originally posted by bushin187
link and stuff...
He brings up good points. Can't argue any of that. But I can still give my POV based on my experience with this matter. If people don't want to take the obvious route, and start with console tournies, then fine. Do what we did. Just jump straight to the middle of the process...

There is also another arcade 5 minutes from the mall I play at. We bugged the hell out of them for Alpha3, they wen't and got it. So now we have both a 3rd Strike machine and an Alpha3 machine. (it's 5 minutes in between, but it beats console) Don't take no for an answer. We didn't, and we got both now. You have to keep bugging them and stay in their face about it. Otherwise, they won't know you are serious. Right now, we are trying to convince the manager at the mall arcade to buy the A3 from the other arcade, so we don't have to leave to play both.

I know this is all easier said than done. (getting the arcade version) But I haven't seen any attempt from these people to get this A3 revival going anyway.

BTW: I'm not a "3S/DC kiddie". So my opinion isn't really biased here. I used to think that 3S was a horrible idea. :sweat: I didn't even start playing it until this year. A3 on the other hand, I did play. SaBrE remembers. I was his A3 bitch for quite a while. :( <----- His V-Akuma had me doing that quite often. I would love to see A3 come back to EVO. But quite honestly, I don't see people trying to do anything about it. (other than complain and point fingers)

Jive Out!

[bushin187]

Originally posted by JIVE TURKEY JONES

stuff

hehe I just remembered this thread from a while ago and the arguments were so similar I had to link ;)

And actually I think a3 players have a perfect port . Emulator sfa3

[Zigmover21]

Originally posted by Archer V2.0
what, i cant have my own opinion? you have lost your humanity if you dont believe in opinion.

There's having an opinion, and then there's Tekken 4.

[Archer V2.0]

Originally posted by Zigmover21


There's having an opinion, and then there's Tekken 4.

and murder she wrote...

[Muskau]

At the arcade I go to SFA3 is like the game everyone will have a go on, just because its so approachable, and nearly everyone around here has played SFA2 so it was easy to transfer. In comparison CVS2 is way more strange to people who just basically want to play a fighting game and not choose between 40+ characters, ratios, and then 6 grooves.

People say they like SFA2 better but I think SFA2 gameplay feels just like an updated ST with a different meter system, AC's and CC's which took little effort to do really.

[Temujin]

Originally posted by JIVE TURKEY JONES

He brings up good points. Can't argue any of that. But I can still give my POV based on my experience with this matter. If people don't want to take the obvious route, and start with console tournies, then fine. Do what we did. Just jump straight to the middle of the process...

There is also another arcade 5 minutes from the mall I play at. We bugged the hell out of them for Alpha3, they wen't and got it. So now we have both a 3rd Strike machine and an Alpha3 machine. (it's 5 minutes in between, but it beats console) Don't take no for an answer. We didn't, and we got both now. You have to keep bugging them and stay in their face about it. Otherwise, they won't know you are serious. Right now, we are trying to convince the manager at the mall arcade to buy the A3 from the other arcade, so we don't have to leave to play both.

I know this is all easier said than done. (getting the arcade version) But I haven't seen any attempt from these people to get this A3 revival going anyway.

BTW: I'm not a "3S/DC kiddie". So my opinion isn't really biased here. I used to think that 3S was a horrible idea. :sweat: I didn't even start playing it until this year. A3 on the other hand, I did play. SaBrE remembers. I was his A3 bitch for quite a while. :( <----- His V-Akuma had me doing that quite often. I would love to see A3 come back to EVO. But quite honestly, I don't see people trying to do anything about it. (other than complain and point fingers)

Jive Out!

Which Arcade is this ? On your location it says Earth.. I know where that is, but you have to be more specific.

[gbursine]

Originally posted by FMJaguar
To me that sounds a little bit hypocritical, and in turn, any possible fans of A3 are being discouraged from trying the game BY the alpha 3 players themselves... no wonder it's not getting anywhere.


you tryin to say somethin?

[marvelscrub]

He's saying that by telling everyone that the console versions are crap, it might be a bad idea. Considering maybe that's the only access some people have to A3.

Go play console A3 and fear DJ/Fei Long :)

Jive : damn dude.. your arcade rocks. I asked my local arcade manager to fix a broken stick and he laughed at me (for real). XvSF hasn't had proper sticks in.. ooh, 3 years?

[RoninDRE-X]

Wow, I'm really happy people responded to this. So whens the first A3 alpha tourney?:D

[Muskau]

I'm just looking for a game to replace Alpha, MvC2 is the top VS game, CVS2 is the top team based game, I want just a new one on one fighter that doesnt have the boring characters of SF3.... seems SVC is the only way to go for the moment.

[Apoc]

Originally posted by JumpsuitJesse


ST is arguably the greatest Street Fighter game ever. It is Capcom fighting in it's purest form.

The reason it still get's play in tournaments is because it is the polished version of the Street Fighter 2 series....the series which revolutionized the gaming industry to begin with. It's a long tradition to have an original SF 2 game in major tournaments because it stands(atleast how I see it)as an homage to the roots of all capcom fighting games.

ST is not a broken game like Alpha 3(aka V-ism fighter). Yeah, its fun and all but once you get into top tournament play you see nothing but V ism.

And before anyone says that ST is all about counter characters, just take a look at the top 2 finishers at EVO2k3. Ryu and Chun Li. Yes, ST has tiers but its a game that doesnt really rely on easy gimmicks like V-ism guard break life draining tactics, or roll cancelling.

ST is a game that hones the basic building blocks of all capcom fighting games......strategy, wits/mind games, and skill.

ST may be dead to you or in your area, but it will never be dead to the legions of gamers out there who play capcom games. It constantly gets tons of play where i live. Like I said before....ST is Capcom fighting in is purest form.

Personally, I like A2 more than A3 and I consider it to be far superior to A1 and A3. Ask any top tournament player and ask them which ALpha game they like best...A2 or A3?? Ask them why....

There's your answer as to why A3 is no longer in tournament lineups.

First off, this isn't to dis ST but, some of this is hella rubbish Jesse. Capcom fighting in its purest form? Not even CLOSE. Dizzies are hella stupid and make little sense. Everyone has a rising upward attack or something similar to a dp with like priority aside from Bison who does 50% in 3 hits. Supers? Invincible moves that do 50%? That's pure?

No the purest form of SF was at it's peak in SF2:HF. The fighting styles and strats are all distinct and there are no crutches to lean on. The shittiest part of HF is the redizzies and to this day, I have seen no re-dizzies in tourney OR competition aside from myself with Rog.

ST is not the polished version of the SF2 series. It's a last ditch effort to remake the strats for every character while introducing new candy=supers. ST was capcom getting lucky again. Although, it's still better than every version of SF2 aside from HF because it has answers to prior bs.

To say A3 is broken is simply favoritism towards ST. Of course YOU would like a game where Fei Long could be getting perfected and can land one opening and the game is over. That would NEVER happen in a game like A3. Getting ticked to death? Nope. There's plenty of stupid shit in ST, it just takes far less skill to perform although timing is an issue.

ST can stand as an homage of sorts but...it's the least played SF2 game. Seriously, SF2 was dead by the time ST came out.

Please, don't talk about A3 if you don't know what you're talking about. Saying A3 is nothing but Vism at top levels is the same as saying CvS2 is cammy/blanka/sagat. That's a matter of choice of the top players. The only reason SOME characters in ST have a chance is because of bullshit.

ST is just as broken, I'd say moreso than A3. Why? Because ST is not nearly as ambitious and STILL it's fucked up. ST has degenerated into counter character non-sense. You don't see as much stupid shit like that in A3. That's not to say that certain players don't try and jock every advantage like using V-Sak with A-Sim as back up and vice versa. Still, generally, an expert is an expert. On ST, 75% of the "experts" are merely counter charactering their way to victory. The moment someone waits for me to pick my character on ST is the moment I know that the opponent knows I am clearly better. He needs the advantage of being able to counter my character. That doesn't speak shit for ST. It's not like it was back in the day.

And before you get stupid and bring up Evo, let's not forget that the Japanese play on head to heads and even put cardboard in between so they can't see one another. That same tactic is laughable in the US. It's HARDER to play by watching someone's hands than merely the screen.

So before you get stupid enough to bring up Chun at Evo again, show me a Chun that's going to win when you're on the same machine. That's a matter of Japanese style. Have fun getting those lightning legs countered to death.

To say that A3 relies on gimmicks and ST doesn't is ridiculous. To act as if you can just pick vism and defeat anyone good is a joke. However, I could pick Chun in ST, better yet, Gief, and still win vs. ST players. I could use Ryu and win vs. ST players. I barely play the game all year long. ST is played because it's a simple game that relies mostly on strategy BUT, there's always the damage threat of a stupid comeback to keep it interesting. One random guess and the round could be over.

The claims you make about ST are better when used to describe HF. You merely show how your favoritism blinds you.

ST is dead everywhere but Texas. If it wasn't there would be many ppl practicing it before Evo. ST is the game that ppl "love." That is why it is played.

In all seriousness and honesty, SFA3 is a more serious, less bs version of SF. I will say that Xism is useless unless facing Aism. Vism destroys Xism. That leaves A vs V mostly. Xism was intended for noobs anyway. Xism is easy damage mode until you face someone that knows how to play the game. But no smart SFA3 player is gonna bust out X unless he knows he's superior to his competition by far.

SFA3 is a superior tournament game. ST is great for nolstagia but if we were playing games based on how GOOD they actually were then HF would be being played. That games just a little too old and much harder than ST players wanna go. ST was the game that hella weak SF2 players got good at while all the great sf2 players stopped playing.

All in all, for various reasons I would say the games were even. But I grew up on SF2 so I'm gonna go with ST always. I mean, who the hell even needs to practice that to compete? A3 on the other hand...that's a game that seriously evolves every year regardless of the tourney scene here in the U.S.

Basically, Texas doesn't know shit about A3 really. A good vism in a real tourney vs a real player is leagues harder than anything Fei Long can do. Not a dis, that's the truth.

Yeah, I personally rank ST higher but...that's the only SF2 I get to choose from for tournies. HF is by far, a superior game in terms of depth and strategy...although I don't like it coming out of my mouth...so is SFA3(omg I actually said it out loud!).

For tourneys however, there is no contest. A3 can't even be practiced. ST never needed to be so we weren't hurting before the DC version. A3 isn't a game you can just get on and play though...it's a lil more hardcore if not as ol skool or "pure" as you put it.

If ST had a damage setting, set it to where a dp does about as much as it does nowadays and then tell me you like it. ST happens to work, but it's not because it's some refined version of SF2. HF is the peak of SF2. ST was just the last game that no one played until 2 years after it was out...oh and on xband(which is a point in itself).

A3 is the last of the hardcore SF games. 3s is more of a "fighting" game than cvs2 simply because of the do or die nature of the parry. Still, A3 was the last sf that was all about fighting.

As for A2? Ask ALL of the top players. A2 is easy fighter. It's not played in Japan anymore cuz it's a scrub game. Now, I said that years ago but it seems that you have to be from Japan to be taken seriously so...ask the top Japanese players. A1 was a fun but scrubby game. A2 was a bit more skillful but still, anyone can play it. A2 over A3? You know, I've never heard from ANYONE who did well consistently at A3 say A2 was better. But I've heard from the most consistent A2 players and they agree that A3 is clearly superior. Basically, if you think A2 is better, it's probably because you're not capable of playing A3 at a high level. You can complain about vcs but, any scrub can bust a cc in a2, not true in A3. A3 is clearly the superior alpha game. It's so clear that I won't argue the issue anymore. Well, especially since I'm usually arguing with someone who doesn't understand A3 and never went anywhere with it once the rest of the country learned how to play. That's a seriously stupid argument.

It looks like this ST=easy game to master A2=easy game to master. Even HF is much harder to master than ST. It sure looks like you like you sf games simple. That's not to say that the overall strategy of ST is simple, but on the whole, it's one of the simplest sfs ever. A2...well that's just simple all around.

Now that's not to say I don't like these games. I love em. Well, I liked A2 a lot until A3 came out. But I also refused to use ccs or Chun back then too. When you have to make lame rules for yourself so that the game isn't stupid...you know it's a joke.

K...that's all for my random rant. I just couldn't let some of those comments slide. It's clearly favoritism. Check yaself bro.

Apoc.

[Apoc]

Originally posted by margalis
I don't want to start a flame war either...bottom line is not that many people are interested in watching or playing A3 anymore. Another year of A3 at Evo would have bored most people.

K...that's an idiots remark. Were you at Evo? What would you know about it? Do you know how much was at Evo that was totally unnecessary and boring? It was a great plan to have a ton of shit though to distract from it. I mean, some of those tourneys weren't even necessary.

Don't act like you don't want to start a flame war and then make a comment like that. Why not put "troll" in your profile or something. You may not troll 100% but you certainly troll.

Yeah, that comment makes it obvious that you don't want a flame war.

Don't bother replying, I won't.

Apoc.

[Muskau]

A3 does have counter characters, not as specific as ST, but with the addition of V-ism can potentially blow the counter character deal away. But choosing V-ism isn't just a case of going oh I'll just counter with V-ism, it's not easy at all when your going against top tier with a low tiered character, but V-ism makes it possible.

eg. expert A-Cody vs. expert A-Chun is a complete washout, everything gets beaten by Chun apart from cr. FP which trades 50%. If I switch to V though, things are way better for Cody, because it gives Cody approach options he couldn't even think of in A, it's not going to be easy, but V-Cody has a good chance now, instead of near none.

[gbursine]

Originally posted by Apoc

Apoc. rant


wow.... thanks apoc

this whole thing has brought my self esteem up.... I really do like the harder games....

[JIVE TURKEY JONES]

Originally posted by Temujin
Which Arcade is this ? On your location it says Earth.. I know where that is, but you have to be more specific.
Heh, sorry about not replying sooner. I'm busy beyond belief...

Fayetteville, NC. (Fort Bragg and Pope Air Force Base are located here)

3S: Mindboggle Arcade, Cross Creek Mall
A3: FUN FUN FUN Arcade, Sycamore Dairy Rd.

Where do you live?

Jive Out!

[SaBrE]

temujin is from canada. good player

[JIVE TURKEY JONES]

Originally posted by SaBrE
temujin is from canada. good player
:sweat: heh...I probably should have looked at his location before I asked that. :p

Jive Out!

[JumpsuitJesse]

First off, this isn't to dis ST but, some of this is hella rubbish Jesse. Capcom fighting in its purest form? Not even CLOSE. Dizzies are hella stupid and make little sense. Everyone has a rising upward attack or something similar to a dp with like priority aside from Bison who does 50% in 3 hits. Supers? Invincible moves that do 50%? That's pure?

No the purest form of SF was at it's peak in SF2:HF. The fighting styles and strats are all distinct and there are no crutches to lean on. The shittiest part of HF is the redizzies and to this day, I have seen no re-dizzies in tourney OR competition aside from myself with Rog.

ST is not the polished version of the SF2 series. It's a last ditch effort to remake the strats for every character while introducing new candy=supers. ST was capcom getting lucky again. Although, it's still better than every version of SF2 aside from HF because it has answers to prior bs.

First I off I just wanna say that I am just shocked at how you get off talking to me. You and I have had many conversations about ST and other Street Fighter Games dating all the way back since 97.....now all of a sudden you're talking to me as if I were some Joe-Shmoe who doesn't know dick about Street Fighter. And saying that I am blinded by favortism? Anyways, fuck all that. I posted what my thoughts were....my opinions on how I see it. Everyone has an opinion on what they think is THE game of games. I simply didn't see you as the kind of guy who would lash out like that.....but oh well.

OK, how are dizzies "Hella stupid, and make no sense?" You lost me on that one, bro.

The same for "everyone having rising attacks with priority" - explain to me how this is a bad thing.

You may see supers as candy bs, but I don't. Supers are in the game to turn the tide of the fight in a blink of an eye. Once the threat of being hit by a super is present it changes the whole game.

The reason I say that ST is Street Fighting in its purest form is that there is almost ZERO room for error. In a game where one 3 hit combo can do 50% damage, I hardly see Supers as a "crutch."

And all that talk about HF is pure opinion. I can sit here and type all day how I think HF is bull of bs, just like you did about ST.... it all boils down to your opinion vs mine.

To say A3 is broken is simply favoritism towards ST. Of course YOU would like a game where Fei Long could be getting perfected and can land one opening and the game is over. That would NEVER happen in a game like A3. Getting ticked to death? Nope. There's plenty of stupid shit in ST, it just takes far less skill to perform although timing is an issue.

ST can stand as an homage of sorts but...it's the least played SF2 game. Seriously, SF2 was dead by the time ST came out.

I said A3 was broken based on the countless opinions I have heard from many players in the past.

And what's this crap about Fei Long all of a sudden?? Oh, so it's my fault he's so powerful? It's my fault Fei has 50% combos off of an opening? If a player is stupid enough to get hit then that's his mistake! You have no idea how hard it is to fight some of the fights that Fei has in ST. Characters that that supposedly lost to Fei easily are now able to fight back hard. And thats the beauty of ST. There is always something...no matter how small or big...there is something that can change the fight. You complain about 50% combos with invincibility, when you should really be preaching about how not to fuck up and get hit by those things. Supers aren't as failsafe as you make them out to be. Don't complain about being ticked to death in ST, and ST taking less skill than A3 because I have seen the EXACT same shit in A3 and CVS2. You wanna talk about crutches?? Yeah, run away and charge that V-meter.....ok, I have V-meter now here I come. Better pray that you have atleast an Alpha Counter.....thats if you are playing A or V.

As a matter of fact, I am willing the bet that ST is the most played SF2 game in the world.


ST is just as broken, I'd say moreso than A3. Why? Because ST is not nearly as ambitious and STILL it's fucked up. ST has degenerated into counter character non-sense. You don't see as much stupid shit like that in A3. That's not to say that certain players don't try and jock every advantage like using V-Sak with A-Sim as back up and vice versa. Still, generally, an expert is an expert. On ST, 75% of the "experts" are merely counter charactering their way to victory. The moment someone waits for me to pick my character on ST is the moment I know that the opponent knows I am clearly better. He needs the advantage of being able to counter my character. That doesn't speak shit for ST. It's not like it was back in the day.

You know, I find it funny how you say that ST has been degenerated to counter character non-sense when our best players got wiped out at EVO. Not once did the Japanese players switch fighters to counter character for the win. You are right. Our experts are experts because we(USA)dont really wanna put enough effort into perfecting a character to the apex of their ability. Instead, we tap that stick and move the cursor over to the convenient counter character....because it's all about winning over here. It's not about getting props for going all the way with one fighter...its about the money and the status. Once a tactic is out almost EVERY tournament player out there runs to it and uses it as bread and butter. I saw it first hand when Daigo first came to the US for the A3 championships. After his V-ism show EVERYONE was just up in arms about how bad ass V-ism is. Imagine how long it would have taken us to figure out all that stuff if Daigo hadnt come and played....or better yet, if there was no internet. It's fucking humiliating to know that even with our counter character BS we can't beat Japans mediocre players!

And before you get stupid and bring up Evo, let's not forget that the Japanese play on head to heads and even put cardboard in between so they can't see one another. That same tactic is laughable in the US. It's HARDER to play by watching someone's hands than merely the screen.

So before you get stupid enough to bring up Chun at Evo again, show me a Chun that's going to win when you're on the same machine. That's a matter of Japanese style. Have fun getting those lightning legs countered to death.

No, I am going to get stupid on you and bring up EVO! You and Chris had a long discussion about this very subject. I think your whole theory on side by side play vs head to head play is total bullshit. I am going to SBO next year and I personally will ask the top Japanese ST players if playing side by side is going to make all the difference in the world. What? You think the whole "Hood and Mad Dog" thing is going to change the outcome of the fight? I've had players SLAM the machine, talk trash to my face...you name it....they still got their asses handed to them. I think it's a lame excuse to whine about how "Oh, they play head to head. If they were next to me I bet they wouldn't hang!" If a player is good enough, he can win no matter what the setup is. If you want to critscize me for having favortism towards the Japanese players go ahead, but the results speak for themselves. We had EVERY chance to beat them down at EVO, and again we failed.

To say that A3 relies on gimmicks and ST doesn't is ridiculous. To act as if you can just pick vism and defeat anyone good is a joke. However, I could pick Chun in ST, better yet, Gief, and still win vs. ST players. I could use Ryu and win vs. ST players. I barely play the game all year long. ST is played because it's a simple game that relies mostly on strategy BUT, there's always the damage threat of a stupid comeback to keep it interesting. One random guess and the round could be over.

The claims you make about ST are better when used to describe HF. You merely show how your favoritism blinds you.

ST is dead everywhere but Texas. If it wasn't there would be many ppl practicing it before Evo. ST is the game that ppl "love." That is why it is played.

Ok, maybe the analogy of just picking V-ism = auto win is a bit far fetched but give me one A3 major finals where V-Ism wasnt chosen.

You are right. There IS always that threat in your face where ONE fuck up can cost you the game. It is this threat pushes ST players to perfect their game.

ST is dead everywhere but TX? .................... ok dude

SFA3 is a superior tournament game. ST is great for nolstagia but if we were playing games based on how GOOD they actually were then HF would be being played. That games just a little too old and much harder than ST players wanna go. ST was the game that hella weak SF2 players got good at while all the great sf2 players stopped playing.

You are straight up wrong there. Again, HF being better than ST is opinion. We have HF at the Stargate, and we do play it from time to time but everyone ends up going back to ST for their SF2 fix. And saying that HF is harder than ST?? If anything HF is missing all the variables that favor aggressivness. Overheads, Supers, priorities.....

In all seriousness and honesty, SFA3 is a more serious, less bs version of SF. I will say that Xism is useless unless facing Aism. Vism destroys Xism. That leaves A vs V mostly. Xism was intended for noobs anyway. Xism is easy damage mode until you face someone that knows how to play the game. But no smart SFA3 player is gonna bust out X unless he knows he's superior to his competition by far.

So automatically 33.3% of the game goes right out the window? So whats the ratio of V-ism players to A-ism players in major finals here in the states?


Basically, Texas doesn't know shit about A3 really. A good vism in a real tourney vs a real player is leagues harder than anything Fei Long can do. Not a dis, that's the truth.

You're right. The majority of A3 players in TX play it for shits and giggles.

As for A2? Ask ALL of the top players. A2 is easy fighter. It's not played in Japan anymore cuz it's a scrub game. Now, I said that years ago but it seems that you have to be from Japan to be taken seriously so...ask the top Japanese players. A1 was a fun but scrubby game. A2 was a bit more skillful but still, anyone can play it. A2 over A3? You know, I've never heard from ANYONE who did well consistently at A3 say A2 was better. But I've heard from the most consistent A2 players and they agree that A3 is clearly superior. Basically, if you think A2 is better, it's probably because you're not capable of playing A3 at a high level. You can complain about vcs but, any scrub can bust a cc in a2, not true in A3. A3 is clearly the superior alpha game. It's so clear that I won't argue the issue anymore. Well, especially since I'm usually arguing with someone who doesn't understand A3 and never went anywhere with it once the rest of the country learned how to play. That's a seriously stupid argument.


Me not capable of playing A3 at high level? Now you're just trying to insult me. It's not that I am not capable. It's not that I am a simple minded person. I never liked A3 to begin with. I never got into the game. The only games I ever dedicated my heart and soul into were SF2, CE, HF, ST, 2I and Samurai Shodown 2. All of the other SF games I played but never got serious about because I didn't like what the end results were. The only NEW game that I see as worth my time is 3rd Strike.


I have read countless of your posts in the past, going all the way back to alt.games.sf2 and I know how strongly you post your views. I am not about to get into an argument with you over the issue. This clearly boils down to opinions that differ. I posted why I thought A3 was not in APEX or in major tournies nationwide. Someone criticized ST and I posted why I thought the game belongs in the tournament lineup.....not why ST is better than A3 or vice versa. I did say that A3 was broken because of V combos and abuse.

I'll see you again, and hopefully we can talk about this face to face over drinks.

Peace

Jesse C.

[FMJaguar]

Not once did the Japanese players switch fighters to counter character for the win. You are right. Our experts are experts because we(USA)dont really wanna put enough effort into perfecting a character to the apex of their ability. Instead, we tap that stick and move the cursor over to the convenient counter character....because it's all about winning over here. It's not about getting props for going all the way with one fighter...its about the money and the status. Once a tactic is out almost EVERY tournament player out there runs to it and uses it as bread and butter.

It is easy to think that Japan is all about respect and honor and all that... but make no mistake, that all comes from winning, nothing less. I haven't ever heard of a last place japan player getting all this hype.

IMO our tournaments are superior for players that want to win, i mean we have 100x less people and still attract the worlds best players? something must be right. Everything except one... we have less players coming that actually expect to win. People figure that it's easier to copy the best and be the 2nd best, than to win themselves. IMO thats when it becomes easy to copy... Of course it's one thing to improve on someone's idea, but people are just straight up copying, right down to the button taps lol. Even america's game (marvel) has degenerated into copying the top players, and hoping to get lucky and fighting uphill to beat them at their own game, which we know isn't going to happen, but we do it anyway.

See we don't *need* to xcopy japan's stuff, (remember daigo still lost in 2/3 and 3/5 matches), or to adopt some 'honor' philosiphy, we just need people willing to take the titles, and the rest will sort itself out.

Not really part of the original topic, but i wanted to respond to that cause it comes up a lot.

[Ubersaurus]

Well how I see it as far as A3 scene goes is this...someone needs to put the A3 ISO out for saturn on the direct connect or people wanting to run the scene need to import copies, or whatever. Even though the saturn one isn't arcade perfect, neither is the DC port of 3rd Strike, and their scene made due. Sure, saturn shit may be harder to come by, and if thats too much trouble, then you can use the old PSX port. It too wasn't perfect, but its easier to get a hold of. Once you can establish the scene in the area, go have mass complaints to the arcade managers over wanting A3 machines...and go from there.

You have to start small. Alpha 3 is a damn good game and deserves to have a revival like 3rd Strike. But you can't have the moon straight off...you have to build the rocket first.

Now, we just need a Hyper Fighting scene revival...though I'm not sure there's good enough sticks for the Genesis or SNES, and well, the PSX version is a bitch to find :bluu: but hell, its got penetration in the Ultracade (even though its faster on that thing, HF is HF).

[JumpsuitJesse]

Originally posted by FMJaguar


It is easy to think that Japan is all about respect and honor and all that... but make no mistake, that all comes from winning, nothing less. I haven't ever heard of a last place japan player getting all this hype.

IMO our tournaments are superior for players that want to win, i mean we have 100x less people and still attract the worlds best players? something must be right. Everything except one... we have less players coming that actually expect to win. People figure that it's easier to copy the best and be the 2nd best, than to win themselves. IMO thats when it becomes easy to copy... Of course it's one thing to improve on someone's idea, but people are just straight up copying, right down to the button taps lol. Even america's game (marvel) has degenerated into copying the top players, and hoping to get lucky and fighting uphill to beat them at their own game, which we know isn't going to happen, but we do it anyway.

See we don't *need* to xcopy japan's stuff, (remember daigo still lost in 2/3 and 3/5 matches), or to adopt some 'honor' philosiphy, we just need people willing to take the titles, and the rest will sort itself out.

Not really part of the original topic, but i wanted to respond to that cause it comes up a lot.

You're right FMJ. I wasnt meaning to imply that we need to put forth some kind of honor code. I was simply trying to say that our players are lazy. We take the easy way out, and it gets us the win most of the time....but when it matters most it fails.

[moop]

japan is different because in their tourneys are single-elimination. They also can't switch their character.

So they are forced to learn how to fight these disadvantageous fights and have a better understanding of these matchups.

they also are forced to play with those announcers screaming in their ears ("SONICA SONICA SONICA!") so i think that requires a bit of focus and ability to tune out other outside noises. Imagine if Tragic started doing this during evo2k4, i bet there'd be a ton of complaints.


as for alpha3 vs ST... all anyone needs to see is that one acho match vid of V-Cody vs V-Karin. First round, cody gets infinite. 2nd round sakura catches cody in an infinite... fucks up with cody at 10% health... cody vces back and guard breaks karen into CC.... game over.

very very broken. very fun, but very very broken.



p.s. what do you mean by this fmj


See we don't *need* to xcopy japan's stuff, (remember daigo still lost in 2/3 and 3/5 matches),

i don't see how daigo is that relevant to the topic. :confused: I agree that too many people are xcopying. The sad thing is that it works, like in the case of 3s where US had never tried any shit to begin with. But you can't really fault the players. The footage is there, the competition is sparse. Unlike Marvel where we discovered all the shit first, we'll be behind in most fighting games strat-wise simply due to scarcity of competition. That's not something anyone can really change.

[SaBrE]

sakura has an infinite? please elaborate? :lol:

[Subliminal UK]

i know the match in question it's edited when Cody starts his infinite both times.

yeah it's a semi-infinite that Sakura has, think she does like 5 cc j.fierces.

Moop has some valid points but i can't agree with one match determing the ST vs A3 debate. they're both good and broken in their different ways.

I can see where its boring if one counter hit = free round but i see it like 9-ball. sometimes your opponent cleans up and all you can do is forget the round and move on. It's all about avoiding the set-ups.

And yeah i give more props to the players that avoid the uber tier. Always nice to see sodom, rog, cody, charlie, gief etc in tourneys for that varierty.

i like to think i play with honour, i don't use top-tier characters and i avoid infinites. maybe if $$$ were involved i'd feel different but i'm happy playing my game.

As for the topic a3 deserves tourney status. it can't be too hard to include ST, A3, CVs2, MVc2, and 3s. I mean i would have loved to see Daigo, ino vs u.s boys in a3. to me the dvd has little appeal without it.

sub

[Muskau]

Originally posted by FMJaguar


IMO our tournaments are superior for players that want to win, i mean we have 100x less people and still attract the worlds best players? something must be right.

Wasn't the only reason the japanese players came to EVO this year was because the prize money? I heard japanese tourneys didnt have prize money or, if they did, it wasn't as much.

[moop]

money is most of the reason. It goes both ways tho. The japanese coming attracts a shitload of people who might otherwise not come. But yeah, EVO is their personal ATM machine.

EDIT: my last post should be V-Karin.

Anyways i shouldn't be tooo critical. Most of the japanese players i've seen only do a few reps of CC infinites. Just that one cody player lol.

[yes4me]

Gen, Sagat, Cody, Vega, Karin, AKuma, Ryu, ChunLi, Rose and Charlie are the only characters I know off who can do infinites. Is there any more characters or can everyone actually do it?

[rsigley]

Originally posted by SaBrE
yeah its dead in the us totally as far as evolution is concerned. kinda garbage when st still gets play and a3 can draw similar number of players as that game. midwest and ecc still hold a3 tho so thats good. some places hold local tourneys. but its dead for the most part. like st is dead(but still gets play in evo, go figure)


I don't know about that. At ECC ST drew about 60-70 people, A3 had like 12, but at NEC both had like 10 so who knows maybe ECC was just the exception. I think it's because the learning curve in A3 is so big - the really good people you can't really touch if you're only a casual player whereas in ST even if you just picked up the game you can do good since throws do insane damage and just very basic.

[bushin187]

Originally posted by yes4me
Gen, Sagat, Cody, Vega, Karin, AKuma, Ryu, ChunLi, Rose and Charlie are the only characters I know off who can do infinites. Is there any more characters or can everyone actually do it?

akuma and charlie don't have infinites just crouch cancel finishers don't know about rose though but I doubt she has one.

[bushin187]

Originally posted by JumpsuitJesse


1. The reason I say that ST is Street Fighting in its purest form is that there is almost ZERO room for error.




2. As a matter of fact, I am willing the bet that ST is the most played SF2 game in the world.


3. So automatically 33.3% of the game goes right out the window? So whats the ratio of V-ism players to A-ism players in major finals here in the states?



Eventhough your post is directed to apoc. I want to give my opinion about some of the things you said :D

1. the same goes for a3

2. That might be true but it doesn't say much. Someone posted a thread a long time ago with sale numbers of fighting games and streetfighter was very low. mk5 was one of the highest but most SF players think that game gets boring after a week.
cvs2 sux :evil:but everyone plays it. What I'm trying to say is that eventhough many ppl play a game, it says very little about the quality of the game.

3. X-ism takes loads of damage has no airblock ,no rolling and no alpha-counters. With all these disadvantages I seriously doubt if x-ism was meant for competitive play. It's for beginners or players who are to good for their comp.

V-ism has the advantage yes. But A-ism can hang !

IMVHO a-sim a-guy a-gen a-gief a-rolento a-ryu a-chunli a-blanka a-rog are al good for tournament level play

let's focus on how we are gonna get a3 back in tournaments

[Ryu1999]

Originally posted by Subliminal UK
Always nice to see sodom, rog, cody, charlie, gief etc in tourneys for that varierty.

i like to think i play with honour, i don't use top-tier characters and i avoid infinites. maybe if $$$ were involved i'd feel different but i'm happy playing my game.


since when HAVEN'T the chars i italicized NOT been in regular rotation for A3. Gief is crazy stupid in this game, i'd say #2 or 3 on the brain-dead scale behind dhalshim and or chun-li. i'd rather have a vasectomy than watch an a3 gief match.

[Muskau]

I'd like to see more Juni, Mika, Ken, Honda, Blanka, Bison, Sagat players myself, its just unbelievable how damn easy it is to get wins with Sakura and Ryu, they just have some much priority and such good pokes the entire match is usually me waiting for them to finish their poke pattern because its unpunishable unless I'm using a character with comparable priority pokes.

[kane_warhead]

You people should go here

http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Apricot/9893/index.html

My japanese friend is hosting a tournament. 4 other japanese are confirmed to go(like Project Arashi)... They're still negotiating with Daigo... since Daigo is on/off in Alpha 3.

The tournament is in the Philippines

[mondu_the_fat]

Hpmh. During 1999-2000 I spent every other day in Ever Recto (and even sneaked out of Fabelia Hospital in 2001 during breaks) to play SFZ3. No one there can even play V-ism while I was bored out of my skull playing V-Akuma/V-Charlie/V-Gief one player for hours. Has the situation improved within the last 2 years? Haven't been in Manila since I graduated.

EDIT: an ALL RYU tournament?!

[kane_warhead]

mondu_the_fat seriously, yeah.... I don't know why an all ryu tournament... maybe just for fun... But I believe the real tournament has the real money.

And that guy is japanese(Here I thought he is pinoy), anyway he managed to bring project Arashi... and he still I think contacting Daigo.

He is good.

[Temujin]

ECC8 had 20 sign-ups for A3 after late-signups, I counted