Strategy and Tactics: What happened?

[ytwojay]

It seems as if ever since the forums got an upgrade, the skill of posts/threads/posters in Strategy and Tactics has dropped severely. Has anyone else noticed this?

(Btw Mods, I'm not trying to start anything. Just looking for an explanation/discussion)

[Big_marcus86]

If you are referring to the lack of good tactics on many characters, I think one part of that is that most people only post for the top/common chars. I have noticed that most of the new posts are of course on cable/sent/magneto/storm with cyclops/capcom/psylocke. No one wants to try and get serious on any other characters but the ones considered to be top tier. Lack of originality I believe is the cause...

[ytwojay]

Actually, I was referring to the "General Strategy" section of mvc2. It's pretty sad.

[TheWanderer]

It's because there's isn't anything new out yet.But if there were,i don't think peoples would like to share it(depends on the person).In my opinion,i think it's good that the peoples shouldn't share it,because it'll be boring.The more secrets,the more excitement.:evil: .

[Mixup]

Originally posted by ytwojay
Actually, I was referring to the "General Strategy" section of mvc2. It's pretty sad.

I made a few dope ass threads (10 plus pages for each, one all magneto and the other general marvel)

They are active to this day. Since i got heavy into the tourney scene tho it's more tempting to keep secrets now

[luigi]

Originally posted by Mixup


I made a few dope ass threads (10 plus pages for each, one all magneto and the other general marvel)

They are active to this day. Since i got heavy into the tourney scene tho it's more tempting to keep secrets now

I think secrets kill the community. We're hiding stuff why japanese/maybe other countries are sharing it. I think its bd thing. Of course, if everybody is hiding stuff, and you don't, you'll be at a disadvantage, so what can you do? The community kills itself.

Good old days where players like Viscant, KDCmarvel, Duc and mt would share anything with srk members. Nowadays, I think besides a couple of your threads, nobody wants to share anymore(well, Dasrik shares a lot, but he is not a top top MvC2 player)

Just a couple of thoughts, please don't take offense by it

[TheWanderer]

Luigi
But they can't keep it for long.They'll have to bust it out eventually.Like in a casual match or at a friend's house.Then,his friends will go to the Mall and use the secrets on someone else,then it'll pass on.So,secrets can't be kept forever.So,don't worry if it's killing the community.Because,i don't think it does,just because the secrets(if there are any:p )are being kept secrets.

[HuStLeMaN17]

Originally posted by TheWanderer
[.So,don't worry if it's killing the community.Because,i don't think it does,just because the secrets(if there are any:p )are being kept secrets. [/B]

Trust me as long as there is still good comp for Mvc2, there well always be secrets.

[TheWanderer]

HustleMan
Yeah,but they'll bust it out eventually.Trust me:) .

[Buck Jones]

Originally posted by luigi


I think secrets kill the community. We're hiding stuff why japanese/maybe other countries are sharing it. I think its bd thing. Of course, if everybody is hiding stuff, and you don't, you'll be at a disadvantage, so what can you do? The community kills itself.

Good old days where players like Viscant, KDCmarvel, Duc and mt would share anything with srk members. Nowadays, I think besides a couple of your threads, nobody wants to share anymore(well, Dasrik shares a lot, but he is not a top top MvC2 player)

Just a couple of thoughts, please don't take offense by it

OK, I won't be offended.... but I do take issue with the part I took the liberty to italicize.

Everybody would love to hear the phattest strats from the best of the best. Myself included. I'm not crabbing you for that.....

.....but, for the most part, they don't. I don't really blame them; that's fine, and that's life.

So when somebody who actually knows what the phuck they're talkin' about actually DOES hang around this god-forsaken place and try to share what they know (for whatever reason), you really might as well listen.

If you hang around awhile, it's fairly easy to separate the wheat from the chaff as far as information. Some people are obviously uninformed, and some people clearly have some time in with the game, good thought processes and an ability to convey the information well on the boards.

I'm not trying to pick on luigi specifically, I want to make that clear. But the whole "If you're not Evo Top 8 or from Japan then you must not know anything" attitude needs to go. It's high time & *long* overdue.

So if you're gonna continue to come to SRK for MvC2 improvement, please, be mature, open your mind & be willing to learn from anyone who may be able to help you instead of waiting for J. Wong himself to descend from on high and personally teach you Marvel. We'll all be a lot better off.

k thx

[Pryde]

personally, i do see people post less ever since certain games got their own forum. i guess it was easier for people to just go one forum instead of browsing through character threads. it's cleaner and it saves time in my opinion, but i guess people are just getting lazy to USE THE SEARCH FEATURE .

secrets will always be part of the gaming community.

[luigi]

Originally posted by Buck Jones


OK, I won't be offended.... but I do take issue with the part I took the liberty to italicize...




You got me all wrong. I totally agree with you. I think Dasrik is a great and kind player and I even save some of his posts on my HD. I was trying to say that top players don't share anymore, and just it. It's a blessing that very good players still post and share, or else we woul have a much bigger problem.

Still, many "not as top " players that used to post here seems to be also gone. Good posters like Jinmaster, Fluffy, Stiltman, NatexGrey and others practically disappeared...

That's what I was trying to say. Maybe the only great poster left is Dasrik, and I really appreciate his efforts.

[Buck Jones]

That's cool, man. There are a few other notable individuals who still post re: Marvel, but I suppose Dasrik is the most well-known & widely recognized. So no harm done, I know what you were getting at, and I know you didn't mean any ill will by what you said.

I really tried to stress that my post above was not an indictment on you personally; I would like to reiterate that now. :)

Hopefully people can see past the indignant tone of my earlier post (sorry about that, bad day) and consider whatever decent points I may have made on their own merits.

Laterz.

[taiji]

i think most people just forgot about S&T , i know i did lol

[ytwojay]

Originally posted by Pryde
personally, i do see people post less ever since certain games got their own forum. i guess it was easier for people to just go one forum instead of browsing through character threads.
Agreed. I really think that separating the games/characters does make the forum a cleaner, but also a lot less more active. People can't click on one link, and see topics on varying subjects. Now they only go where they want to, and miss out on other threads that might have caught their eye.
i think most people just forgot about S&T , i know i did lol
So you post at gamefaqs instead? :(

I understand why people keep secrets on tactics and such, but it still bothers me. I know that button-switch/negative edge thing was around for a while before I even heard about it, and it kinda bothered me that I had to hear it off of gamefaqs/my friend.
/me shrugs

[luigi]

Is there any chance to get the forums back to the old way? Separate strategy by games its nice, but by character is just too much, IMO. Specially at MvC2, that is about teams and tons of relationships(DHCs, assists and such).

Threads are too much one sided. For an instance, Magneto fans don't read IM thread so we lose the old passioned theory fighter battles...

edit: And when gamefaqs starts to be more advanced than srk, thats not a very good sign. A while ago some of the worst posters here would be able to debate with some of the best there.

[Buck Jones]

I seriously doubt things will go back to the old way, there was an awful lot of work put into making things character-specific I'm sure....

I don't really think the format is the problem, anyway. As much as I liked the old way, I have to admit that this layout has its positive aspects.

Probably the best thing that could happen would be for people to start using the Marvel General Strategy section in the way that people used to use the old S&T folder. That's the logical place for things like team-based discussion, specific matchups and other various stuff that doesn't neatly fit into a character folder.

All that being said, I don't think any of this matters if people just don't have anything to say. I get the general feeling that everybody knows about what they want to know re: Marvel & only cares to fine-tune already existing skills & strats.... if that. Maybe SRK was so successful at its intended purpose (at least as far as Marvel) that it became its own worst enemy (kinda like English, and Latin before it), leaving us with the situation you see today discussion-wise.

It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but perhaps a thread on the less common characters (you know.... the other 50 or so... :lol: ) and what they've got going for them would help get the creative juices flowing, and bring back some of the theory fighter & substantive discussion that brought me to the boards in the first place way back when. One can dream, anyway.....

.....highly unlikely, though. :(

[ytwojay]

Getting rid of character specific sections but keeping the games separated sounds like a great idea to me.

There are also a serious lack of quality posters in Strategy & Tactics.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Originally posted by ytwojay
Getting rid of character specific sections but keeping the games separated sounds like a great idea to me.

There are also a serious lack of quality posters in Strategy & Tactics. i know i ain't reguarded as nobody yet but i mean; i post valuable info in IM and sometimes Mag and Storm threads...but then i'll have a noob, that has a question about a flying screen or something, try to shoot down what i said.

i think getting rid of character specific strats is a great idea, but i know it won't happen...

i just thought about it, i talk more in matchingmaking threads about MvC2 than in the S&T threads..."who posts in THAT shit?":lol:

[luigi]

A few days ago I made a thread about MvC1 in the "other games" forum. The thread is still going, since I am practically begging :) for answers, but all the info there is about things I asked.

Then I made a thread in the fighting game discussion asking if the game was dead. How ironic. That thread has already more posts about different characters strategy than my original thread, even though it wasn't meant to discuss strategy.

Buck, I don't think MvC2 strategy is all known already. Although there aren't big news anymore, when I watch some vids I realize lots of matchup specifics that I never read at srk, and I've been reading here since the days of Viscant and KDcmarvel.

I think there are 3 problems now:
- Flamers - A newbie asks for a question people start saying how idiot he is. A good player explains something newbies starts sayiing how idiot he is. This in part leads to problem 2:

- Not sharing - In 2000/2001, the STSFN mentality seems to be at work just in the weeks really close to the big tourneys. Out of it, most top players would come to srk and discuss strategiew freely, with greater theory fights that would make both sides of the discussion better. I remember a great BH vs sentinel discussion between AK vs Viscant, today I think EC and WC would just say lets wait and see or something like it, at best. Plus some foreign posters would help here a lot, mt, kdcmarvel,coy and white from the top of my head. The unknown good posters often lose interest because of teh flamers so things keep getting worse

- The format - What we are discussing here. I hope some Adm is reading this to collect our opinions. Fighting game discussion attracts lots of strategies, much more than the strategy zone, IMO. It seems to be agreed that one forum to each game would be best, and fighting game discussion could be left to non strategy topics and older game strategies.

Well, just my 2 cents

[ytwojay]

Originally posted by luigi
I think there are 3 problems now:
- Flamers -
- Not sharing -
- The format -
I don't think that flamers are as big a problem as they were in the past, but then again, I haven't been around these parts very often recently. But I do agree overall on what you said. Even if someone had something to share, I don't know if they would want to do it here anymore.

[Mixup]

Nobody is really asking anything new..the board is populated so heavily by new players its just the same old same...

if people were discussing things that they're working on now( right now i'm learning guard cancel out of common block strings mid-game)

creative patterns to use in marvel that are set-ups to catch somone slipping, option tree's for fake out's ect

People really don't discuss things that are used now, it's more like kats just use their own style and don't break it down to that level for the public.

This is why the scene still thrives imo, new tactics keep the game fresh, secrets and styles are what draw people into the game. Tournaments roll around and the players pull out whatever new they've discovered and the hype is renewed.

Making the majority of secrets public would make the tournaments much less interesting and iterest would fade.

With the speed tourney footage is being put out now, it's not like the players have to wait long to see some new hype shit to bite...

[ytwojay]

Originally posted by Mixup
if people were discussing things that they're working on now( right now i'm learning guard cancel out of common block strings mid-game)

Making the majority of secrets public would make the tournaments much less interesting and iterest would fade.
Guard cancel into c. lk, c. lk, psylocke = too good, although I guess that would be c. lk, c. lk, tron for you :p

I don't think it would make tournaments less interesting, though. I think the higher the level of play, the more interesting the match (unless we're talking combo exhibition ownage here)

Like the AZ people talking about the Sent unblockable. They made it toally public here on SRK, and I think current gameplay has gotten better because of it. Now, people know how to get around it (with certain characters *cough*Cable*cough*), and I think it sparks interests because it gives people something to work against (or integrate into their gameplay)
/me shrugs
I dunno, that might just be me.

[Buck Jones]

The whole 'sharing vs. hoarding info' argument with respect to tourney performance only really applies to the very best players (certainly not me), so I'll leave that alone.... except to say that surprises are nice & all, but I'm generally pro-sharing. :)

Maybe some of the problem (& I'm guilty of this too) is that we are looking for people to discuss Marvel with the same enthusiasm and open-mindedness you saw in the year 2000. Back then, everybody had something to say, nothing was really "common knowledge" and statements/ideas that were off the beaten path were much more readily considered.

Nowadays, the MvC2 strat scene is different.... but that doesn't have to mean worse. Things won't ever have the sheer volume of before, but the true students of the game can keep everything going with reasonable & rational discussion.

Only a small percentage of overall players have that ability to elevate their game with little-to-no superior competition. I personally played for a long time where I was just playing.... not really learning. Sure, I spotted some things & had a grasp of some concepts, but ultimately it was just win/lose, hit start, repeat. Now, I learn more in 45 minutes on my DC than I did in 3 months 2 years ago.

IMHO, this speaks to the root of the problem. A lot of people either moved on or are content with the standard stuff that's good enough to compete locally. If you get more people who are true students of the game (rather than me, too! combo vid sheep), maybe you'll have more people talking with better stuff to say.


It may be too late, but we can try.

[eks]

Originally posted by Mixup
if people were discussing things that they're working on now( right now i'm learning guard cancel out of common block strings mid-game)


haha me too..