Beyond mediocrity?

[Archer]

Now before I get labelled a 'scrub' or such, allow me to specify. I have only been playing Third Strike for about two and a half weeks thusfar and, as you all know quite well, 3S is unlike any other Street Fighter (save, obviously, it's same-series predicessors).

That said, I've started basic (read Ryu w/ SAIII) and have all of your standard mechanics down. I know Ryu's bread & butter combos and bone-basic theory. I know some Denjin setups - although my execution on an arcade cabinet could stand some improvment. Parrying is key, I know, but can only improve with practice (?). Honestly, I've read pretty much everything I've been able to get my hands on but, beyond Kara-Throws, I'm still finding myself at a bit of a loss.

Could anyone offer me some pointers on how to improve my play beyond mediocrity?

My thinking in asking is that you, the players of the esteemed upper-crust, have seen much more 3S than I have, and (certainly) at a higher level of play, so perhaps you could delve into your experience and voice some of the most common mistakes made by those learning, or illuminate the secret of becoming less predictable without embracing complete randomness.

Basically, I'd just like to hear the thoughts of my betters in 3S.

Thanks.

- Archer

[DooM]

i dont play him that much but i do know this i think...

SA3 is unblockable and u have to charge it right... do a 360 degree motion while charging on ur stick and it will be fully charged :o or thats what i heard....

and use shin-shoryuken! then one of those kicks *hcf+lk i think*

[exodus]

to get better you have to download videos, read forums, and most importantly, play. no matter how many videos you watch, you cannot instantly get better. you have a better idea, but execution and thought are two different things. pressure affects execution as well as thought, and only through playing more and more will you get less and less pressure.

as for playing ryu --> he's not as easy to play. you have to be better than your opponent in order to have a good chance of winning because ryu takes alot of work. play all 4 shotos and get a feel for how 'shotos' should be played. dash, foot work, ranging, and bread and butter. the major key in 3S is to alternate to keep the opponent guessing. learn to vary your attacks. timing is also a key.

[haunts]

yeah id agree, just play a lot.

learning your ranges and poke sequences to aggrivate people to get them to do stupid shit. i think you can always improve your basic poke game. supers and stupid combos are easy compared to controlling the pace of a match.

dont over complicate it and you're fine.

oh, and me personally w/ ryu, i use SA1 for the ex meter, mix it up and keep them in block stun all day, go for throws, overheads etc etc etc..

making fun of people in the corner with ryu is pretty satisfying, belive it or not.

[Shocky]

Meter management should be a big part of your gameplan. Learn when to use EX Moves and when to save for supers. EXs are generally easier to land than SAs, but SAs tend to be more effective in the damage dealing department. Using the universal overhead correctly should be on your to do list as well. Technically any character can pull a half decent mixup game using it, not to mention that SAs can be linked off it.

As for Denjin Hadoken:
You need to rushdown the entire round to build pressure on the opponent and meter for yourself. With Denjin, you need to worry about opponents that can parry it. The closer you can get to your opponent, the better. This is consitoring projectiles are easier to parry from far away. Since Denjin is unblockable, you could use it on a standing opponent as an unexpected death blow from close range.

That is all I have to say.

[DooM]

when u throw someone, dash back once or twice, and hit that denjin up and make sure they cant jump when they stand up....

[haunts]

Originally posted by DooM
when u throw someone, dash back once or twice, and hit that denjin up and make sure they cant jump when they stand up....

most decent players quick rise.

[Archer]

Thanks guys! I'm commiting your suggestions to memory. Keep 'em coming; all constructive comments are greatly appreciated.

I'm esp. interested in your observations of the kinds of errors that new, mid-range players tend to make.

- Archer

[DooM]

Originally posted by haunts


most decent players quick rise.


i know its possible to roll out yea but there are times when ppl actually stay down -_- and i dont say u should only do it then...



and abou the errors they make is... they usually do only one thing over and over, be sure to do overheads too and stuff and link from those shit, im on a DC so overheads dont really work coz comp doesnt duck when rising and makoto EX Oroshi which is an overhead too doesnt work here either, yet i keep doing them, coz they should be part of my technique for when i do play ppl in the arcades.....


another mistake i made before is only fight against the strongest in arcade mode... like u can choose from necro and chun and i choose chuin coz shes top tier shit and stuff... but when i did fight necro i lost badly X_x u should learn to fight every character, and if there is noone who plays that char, learn it a bit urself, i learned Elena a bit like this, and now i parry her jumping roundhouse and DP+K like madness and SA3 that shit down with ken and stuff....


i hope u dont mind my gammor :P i always do this when i type, i translate from dutch and then it fucks all up

[paulee]

basic ryu stuff:

stay ground based as much as possible

watch for your opponent to jump and immediately knock him out of the air with jump strong, or jump fierce

if he's too far, use normal moves as Anti Air (not uppercuts)

example:

jab
if he parries you have several options:
jab again
pause to mess his parry timing, then ex upper
throw
low short x2 super

or use fierce into round house, or cancel to hurricane. be safe with your anti airs!

next: you want to knock your opponent down and stay close to play mixup (high,low, kara throw) games and footsies

ryu has several good pokes to play footsie with:
low forward, stand forward, stand rh, low rh

but know your ranges and mix it up

dl videos of high level play to figure out what they're trying to do

most players consider super art I the best for ryu

practicing by itself isn't very useful if you don't know what you're missing (other than improving execution)

good luck!

[DAVID]

since you're on the yahoo list you should view the georgia footages. his ryu is too good.

imo the only way to get better is to know what moves are safe (experimentation, watching footages or other players) and play against good competition (look for decent arcades).

[DooM]

i have like 3 matches of Alex Valle's ryu against chinese competition.... he got ownt, he played against tokido too, but this chunli was badass he had to play, she parried one of the ex hadoken and then quickly did super which can travel thru fireballs.... everybody was like omg and u kept hearing this lil annoying dude: WOOOOOOOOWWWWWW like a little kid that sees his dream come true, an arcade opens up next to him

[doctorK4RNAGE]

Originally posted by DooM
i have like 3 matches of Alex Valle's ryu against chinese competition.... he got ownt, he played against tokido too, but this chunli was badass he had to play, she parried one of the ex hadoken and then quickly did super which can travel thru fireballs.... everybody was like omg and u kept hearing this lil annoying dude: WOOOOOOOOWWWWWW like a little kid that sees his dream come true, an arcade opens up next to him

they are japanese, not chinese players. and the chun-li is named Ohnuki

[DooM]

its all the same ;)


and ohnuki, i heard a lil bit about him, he looks like daigo or something? with bleached hair *read it in some picturethread*

[DAVID]

yeah, that was against the japanese in the 5 on 5 at evo last year - evo 2k2. that just shows how much little we knew about the game. all ohnuki did was did one super motion and parrying upon completion of the motion then did another super motion then kick. now pretty much everybody knows it and more.

tokido vs valle wasn't that bad. but valle vs mester..... :eek:

[DooM]

thats one big yun expostion

[erco]

ryu's best poke is still ex-fireball.

[AneurysmX]

Ohnuki parried, and then did the super motion.
its not that hard.

[DooM]

yea but if u see that shit for the first time u cabn expect everyone going wow

[J Blaze]

Originally posted by Archer
Thanks guys! I'm commiting your suggestions to memory. Keep 'em coming; all constructive comments are greatly appreciated.

I'm esp. interested in your observations of the kinds of errors that new, mid-range players tend to make.

- Archer

All decent players should have their execution down. What separates the best players from the rest is the mind games. They're better at the mental aspect of the game.

That said, you need to go out and play against many different players to figure out what works, what doesn't, what are your options, etc.

And when you lose, think about why you lost. Think about what he's doing and why it worked on you. Then try to change your game with a counterstrategy. Always rechallenge someone if you lose.

Example. Maybe you're losing because he's more patient/turtling you. Possible solution: outpatience/turtle him back, or rush him down with better mixups.

You need to pay to improve, simple as that. You don't put down the quarters, you don't learn.

[Archer]

More great suggestions all. Thanks.

Now though, not to be redundant, I'd like to get your feedback on a couple of things.

1. Everyone in the local arcade is way above my level. Currently, I haven't won a match in more than twenty plays. However, I do manage to win at least one round per, sans mercy -- the machine is set for a three round count for versus play. Sometimes matches are close, sometimes I am the not-so-tragic victim of a combo exhibition. I know that I have to put down the quarters to improve (as JBlaze mentioned), but it gets rather frustrating getting defeated basically everytime I attempt.

2. Parrying. I can Air Parry, generally speaking, and I've got fireballs (and EX) down, but anything else happens on sheer luck. And while I struggle, my opponents seem, to me anyway, to be just short of psychic.

I've been told that I have to watch play and predict what the other player is going to do, but if my guess (or my timing) is off, I get takin' for a ride. Words of wisdom?

3. Getting up. When I get knocked down, especially in the corner, I get just plain abused. I try to wake up w/ a counter move (i.e. shoryuken) and I'm parried and slammed again. If I crouch block, I get thrown. I've attempted to start Tech Rolling when I hit the ground, but I'm unsure about the timing. (Is it as I'm hitting the ground? Just after? Just before?) Suggestions welcome here.

4. I've switched to using Shinkuu Hadoken (SAI) for the additional EX - as most of my combos are short and utilize EX instead of a full-on super. My question here is this: c.forward - s.hadoken xx Shinkuu Hadoken. It isn't hard, I know. (Hell, I can link Ken's c.forward - Jinrai Kyaku.) But for some damned odd reason I always screw up my execution here - usually launching an EX hadoken instead of its bigger, more painful, brother. Is the timing slower than with Ken's link? Or am I just too excitable and faulting under pressure?

Along similar lines to the above (but in regards to SAIII), after I stun with Denjin, I should procede as follows: j.fierce - s.fierce - r.hurricane kick. Unfortunately, I can't link the j.fierce and the s.fierce. Am I hitting them too quickly?

I know this all seems trite and low-level to many of you, but I genuinely need and appreciate your input. After all, a guy has to start somewhere, right?

Thanks again.


- Archer

[J Blaze]

Originally posted by Archer

My question here is this: c.forward - s.hadoken xx Shinkuu Hadoken. It isn't hard, I know.

Along similar lines to the above (but in regards to SAIII), after I stun with Denjin, I should procede as follows: j.fierce - s.fierce - r.hurricane kick. Unfortunately, I can't link the j.fierce and the s.fierce. Am I hitting them too quickly?



why are you doing a fireball before the SA1? It's more work, and I think it's less damage too. Yeah, it can be argued that you have more time to detect if the low MK hits or not....but I don't think that's what you're doing here.
try direct: low mk -> SAI

If the jump fierce hits, you have an eternity to land the standing fierce. Wait until Ryu lands on the ground; that's the secret. I suspect you're doing the standing fierce too soon.

I do jumping RK, standing FP, MK sidekick....I find it easier. Up to you.

[JIVE TURKEY JONES]

Originally posted by DAVID
that just shows how much little we knew about the game. all ohnuki did was did one super motion and parrying upon completion of the motion then did another super motion then kick. now pretty much everybody knows it and more.
Actually, all you do is parry, then super. It's really that simple. Parry the fireball as early as possible and immediately rip a quick super motion. Don't hesitate after the parry, just assume you got the parry and go with it. Also, hit "k" when you reach downforward for the second time. (D, Df, F, D, DF+k.) You don't have to go to F the second time. Cuts a little of super motion, and every bit helps.

Jive Out!

EDIT: :lol: That AV you got is tight.

[ClosetRemy]

Originally posted by Archer
1. Everyone in the local arcade is way above my level.


To beat frustration, sometimes you have to play by yourself to work on execution and try stuff out. Granted, pretty much every mindgame won't work on the cpu, but it's a great chance to work on everything else, including timing on parries and super cancels.


Originally posted by Archer
2. Parrying. I can Air Parry, generally speaking, and I've got fireballs (and EX) down, but anything else happens on sheer luck. And while I struggle, my opponents seem, to me anyway, to be just short of psychic.


That psychic stuff comes from them having played the game forever, and knowing what the most likely thing is next to come. In fact, most of them don't know exactly what you're going to do, they just expect a low attack or a high attack. Parrying down will get dragon punches, remember.

As for getting taken for a ride, I know it's very tempting to parry jump-ins, but depending on your life bar, it can be too big of a risk in case you screw things up. Characters such as twelve seem to have an anti-parry shield around their attacks, and even though blocking doesn't give you many opportunities, it's much safer. Sometimes, blocking and being patient is the best option.


Originally posted by Archer
3. Getting up. When I get knocked down, especially in the corner, I get just plain abused. I try to wake up w/ a counter move (i.e. shoryuken) and I'm parried and slammed again. If I crouch block, I get thrown. I've attempted to start Tech Rolling when I hit the ground, but I'm unsure about the timing. (Is it as I'm hitting the ground? Just after? Just before?) Suggestions welcome here.


When I tech roll, I just jam down on the joystick a few times to make sure. I start about when my character smacks the floor.

To guard against getting abused, somebody dubbed a move "option-select." You tap down on the joystick and a fraction of a second afterward hit the jab and short buttons. The theory is that if they try to throw you, you'll tech even though you're crouching, and the down tap is for a low parry, and the jab or short has the added priority over most moves likely to come at you. I don't use this incredibly often, but it's good to know. You'll develop better reactions as you play more and will be able to wait. An important part of the game is quickly adapting to your opponent's styleof play during a match. It'll take a million years to be like daigo and predict whether you like air attacks based on your hairstyle, but keep at it.


Originally posted by Archer
4. I've switched to using Shinkuu Hadoken (SAI) for the additional EX - as most of my combos are short and utilize EX instead of a full-on super. My question here is this: c.forward - s.hadoken xx Shinkuu Hadoken. It isn't hard, I know. (Hell, I can link Ken's c.forward - Jinrai Kyaku.) But for some damned odd reason I always screw up my execution here - usually launching an EX hadoken instead of its bigger, more painful, brother. Is the timing slower than with Ken's link? Or am I just too excitable and faulting under pressure?


I consider the fireball after the low forward a sort of training wheel so you don't have to do the super motion as quickly. When you get too excited you can screw it up, just remember that you have to do the extra quarter circle pretty quickly once he starts the fireball animation. The goal is to get the quarter circle and punch done when he just thrusts his palms forward. Like J Blaze said, it deals less damage, but cancelling a fireball can be a good safeguard against crappy sticks preventing you from simply cancelling off the low forward. Be sure to give the buttons discrete taps and not keep your finger on them for any length of time.

Also, a good combo you might or might not have seen already: After a successful high parry or jump-in, do a fierce cancelled into an ex sidekick, followed by a dragon punch or ex dragon punch. I think that if finished with an ex dragon punch, the combo does more damage than a super (shinku hadouken) in place of the combo after the fierce by a slight margin, and also does more stun. If you're closer to your side of the screen and the dragon punch won't hit, jump after them and hit roundhouse or something. It'll do damage comparable to the super still, and takes only one ex move to do.

[northernlight]

hey archer, i'm in the exact same position as you are, i'm a complete sf3s arc rookie. thanks for this thread, cuz i'm using all the same tips that you are getting! maybe one day me and you'll be at the top of the 3s circuit. haha, or maybe we'll be own3d forever, oh well.

[haunts]

Originally posted by Archer
More great suggestions all. Thanks.

Now though, not to be redundant, I'd like to get your feedback on a couple of things.

1. Everyone in the local arcade is way above my level. Currently, I haven't won a match in more than twenty plays. However, I do manage to win at least one round per, sans mercy -- the machine is set for a three round count for versus play. Sometimes matches are close, sometimes I am the not-so-tragic victim of a combo exhibition. I know that I have to put down the quarters to improve (as JBlaze mentioned), but it gets rather frustrating getting defeated basically everytime I attempt.

2. Parrying. I can Air Parry, generally speaking, and I've got fireballs (and EX) down, but anything else happens on sheer luck. And while I struggle, my opponents seem, to me anyway, to be just short of psychic.

I've been told that I have to watch play and predict what the other player is going to do, but if my guess (or my timing) is off, I get takin' for a ride. Words of wisdom?

3. Getting up. When I get knocked down, especially in the corner, I get just plain abused. I try to wake up w/ a counter move (i.e. shoryuken) and I'm parried and slammed again. If I crouch block, I get thrown. I've attempted to start Tech Rolling when I hit the ground, but I'm unsure about the timing. (Is it as I'm hitting the ground? Just after? Just before?) Suggestions welcome here.

4. I've switched to using Shinkuu Hadoken (SAI) for the additional EX - as most of my combos are short and utilize EX instead of a full-on super. My question here is this: c.forward - s.hadoken xx Shinkuu Hadoken. It isn't hard, I know. (Hell, I can link Ken's c.forward - Jinrai Kyaku.) But for some damned odd reason I always screw up my execution here - usually launching an EX hadoken instead of its bigger, more painful, brother. Is the timing slower than with Ken's link? Or am I just too excitable and faulting under pressure?

Along similar lines to the above (but in regards to SAIII), after I stun with Denjin, I should procede as follows: j.fierce - s.fierce - r.hurricane kick. Unfortunately, I can't link the j.fierce and the s.fierce. Am I hitting them too quickly?

I know this all seems trite and low-level to many of you, but I genuinely need and appreciate your input. After all, a guy has to start somewhere, right?

Thanks again.


- Archer

Simplicity will get you everywhere.

Stop the parries, ex moves and all that and just focus on normal moves for a while. Play whole rounds w/ JUST normal moves. You wont belive what it will do for your game.

Before you put the quarter in the machine, say "This round isnt about me trying to win, its about me learning this character"

Get the thought WIN out of your head now and just focus on the simple shit. You start to get obsessed w/ winning, and you wont focus on learning.

Once you get your poke game down, you will realise certian pokes in certain areas will make people do certain things, hence thier "psychic" abilities. (although a lot of that could just be presence of mind)

"I do this that and the other, then this person is going to be inclined to jump as thier "escape" route" or whatever. These things will just develop and you will start to see them the more your mixup/poke game improves.

You learn and feel comfortable w/ normal moves, the character will come more "alive" then the special moves just kind of fall into place.


And yeah, quickrising is really important. I wish I had learned it earlier. The charatcer will make a "thud" sound when they hit the ground, and that is when you tap down.. I usally just tap down a couple times just to make sure I roll though.

The reason I say all of this is becuase not too long ago I sucked too, and doing that is what really really made a drastic difference in being to at least put up a fight. and honestly, thats what matters imo, a good fight.

oh yeah, another thing is ranges. mobility is your freind. get good w/ dashing in and out and setting up your ranges w/ your pokes. control the board and you will have a better chance of doing some damage.

[Ric Flair]

archer,

how to 3s I
http://media.bustkaratedojo.net/

hope it helps.

[DrunkenGhost]

another new player here... How exactly do you cancel something like a hurricane kick, can you cancel into nothing or do you have to cancel into another attack? pardon my stupidity but i've been playing SC2 for the past year... And how the hell do you know if you kara thrown correctly? I can't seem to tell the difference. Thnx in advance.

[DooM]

u cant canel a hurricane kick, however u can cancel INTO a hurricane kick, some moves are cancelable, some are not, its just the point to be fast with the buttons :)

and karathrow is something u need for later use, ur life wont depend on it, i dont use it either, well.... rarely at times, but for a beginner it certainly isnt necessary, no offence or pun intended :)

[paulee]

Originally posted by DooM
u cant canel a hurricane kick, however u can cancel INTO a hurricane kick, some moves are cancelable, some are not, its just the point to be fast with the buttons :)

and karathrow is something u need for later use, ur life wont depend on it, i dont use it either, well.... rarely at times, but for a beginner it certainly isnt necessary, no offence or pun intended :)

ken and akuma can cancel their hurricanes.

[DooM]

omg they can :O in what? how?

[northernlight]

ya, WHAT??? i guess since they have a hit before they even leave the ground, so you get one hit in with their hurricane kick and then cancel RIGHT away? that would be a waste though, since those moves do so little damage when only one of the 4 or 5 hits connects...but it would be cool no less.

[Shocky]

Ken's EX Hurricane Kick into SA3 works just fine.

[WhiTe ReFlection]

Originally posted by DooM
u cant canel a hurricane kick, however u can cancel INTO a hurricane kick, some moves are cancelable, some are not, its just the point to be fast with the buttons :)

and karathrow is something u need for later use, ur life wont depend on it, i dont use it either, well.... rarely at times, but for a beginner it certainly isnt necessary, no offence or pun intended :)

ha h ah, you suck, you dont know anything.