Bottom Tier Thread

[marvelscrub]

I think we all know how Tiers work..

You got your crazy good characters
Less than crazy good characters
Everyone else
and the junk.. the crap.. the worst.

Maybe they can hang with the mids even crazy-goods if you outplay them.. but if you base your team on them, you're fucked. The Bottom Tier.

So who are they in this game? I think Zangief was raped.. and there's Dan/KyoSucky. Chang? Beni? Maki? King? Rock even? Does Vice belong there? :)

Who are the real underdogs of this game?

[GF2]

...........

Chang, Maki, and Rock aren't low-tier.

Now Beni, I'm not sure of.

[Blackheart2097]

IMO dhalsim, kyosuke, benimaru, vice, and king. just my opinion. i haven't seen of those characters used very well much less being able to compete with sagat, blanka, vega, and chun li.

[RagingStormX]

I've been using Beni for a while now and I'm still not all that great with him.:mad:

[Neo Odin]

Chang is pretty dame good in the right hands, cause
I have witnessed a few chang players and there pretty sick...

My friend plays a good A-groove Dhalsim....:eek:

Well to tell you the truth I have never seen a good Rock player..:confused:

But I use King in A-groove and im not that great with her but
im not bad either and her combo in the corner kills 9500...

I made a mid screen CC with her that does about 7500, but the
only thing she lacks is a good anti-air CC...

Yeah they did king wrong in this game, kyosuke's garbage,
Zangief is still pretty good in my opinion, vice is okay, I mean
shes probally better than king maybe...

Maybe I should make a king thread to discuss her stratigically....
I'll put it in general discussion cause the last character specific update for her was 3 months ago....

I use N- Yama/Geese/ Vice, Kyo, or Vega
and A- King/Joe/Terry...

And im trying to make a S-groove team also....:lol:

Later....:cool:

[gawsome]

Bottom tier = kyosuke, king

most other people are usable. and if you're willing to give it time and think rock can be fucking good.

[popoblo]

rock is FAR from bottom tier, i'd even give him second tier. he's a beast in K-groove, and is good in practically any groove. Otaku used K-rock as his r2 against daigo in SBO. i doubt he'd use a low tier character in the SBO top 8.

and just because you haven't seen a "good" *insert random character,* it doesn't mean they're automatically bad. at evo i saw gunter's A-king OWNING people in casual play on thursday night. i just kinda sat back and enjoyed the show, because it was so nice seeing such a under-used character owning everybody.

[Gamma Ray]

Sagat!! He blows man. No priority. ;) :rolleyes: ;)

[marvelscrub]

I don't mean any offense, but just because Gunter kicked some ass with King doesn't make her a "good" character does it? Perhaps he was flat out better than his competition, or that they weren't used to playing a King that actually knows what he's doing? That's not what I'm talking about anyways.. Don't tell me who ISN'T bottom tier.. I just threw out some names. I really don't know.

Let's see who we got..

Sagat, Blanka, Bison, Chun, Cammy, Sakura, Geese, Guile, Iori, Rolento, and Vega, are all really good right? I'm just picking names here, but I think we can all agree that they're not garbage, right?

That leaves us with: Akuma, Athena, Zangief, Ryu, Rock, Maki, Benimaru, Kim, Balrog, Chang, Dan, Dhalsim, Honda, Terry, Yun, Eagle, Haohmaru, Hibiki, Joe, Ken, Kyo, Kyosuke, Mai, Morrigan, Yamazaki, Nakoruru, Raiden, Rugal, Ryo, Todo, Vice, King, and Yuri.

I know all these guys can dish out the hurt when played in the right hands.. But if you had to pick the *5* worst characters out of that list, who would they be?

[Admiral Akbar]

Originally posted by marvelscrub
That leaves us with: Akuma, Athena, Zangief, Ryu, Rock, Maki, Benimaru, Kim, Balrog, Chang, Dan, Dhalsim, Honda, Terry, Yun, Eagle, Haohmaru, Hibiki, Joe, Ken, Kyo, Kyosuke, Mai, Morrigan, Yamazaki, Nakoruru, Raiden, Rugal, Ryo, Todo, Vice, King, and Yuri.

Out of those... I'd say... Dan, Dhalsim, Yun, Kyosuke and King... though you forgot king in that list.

The Ds and Ks suck, eh?

[Neo Odin]

I've talked to gunter on his forums about king..
(under the user name stealth)

even though his forum is pretty much dead...

Anyway he stated that he has had some success with king
and this is what he had to say:

GUNTER
-----------
"Well, I've been using her at More in Shinjuku with a great success rate. You have to turtle with her, RCing her HCB+kick move, poking with low strong and low forward/roundhouse, and staying full screen with fireballs and using s.roundhouse and c.fierce as anti-air when they jump. True, her best custom is anti-air in the corner, but don't forget her midscreen ground to ground CC: c.forward, c.roundhouse, rh fb, roll, j.strongx2 (do two sets if full screen), j.rh x2-j.fierce, rh trap shot, super. EASY custom, decent damage."


Now I would just do my mid screen custom cause it takes way more than this...

I myself have had some success with king but that still doesnt
prove anything, if I worked hard enough to implament a strategy to get them to the corner, and always being able to get them
into a custom she'd be pretty good...( its not that hard seeing as
all her moves knock you the f+ck away....

truth is ive been using the same strategy for a while, but then
again most of what he stated above is common sense with king...
(no offence gunter) :)

I really dont care for roll canceling too much, because I think its
cheap....(just my opinion) :lame:

By the way I think ill try A-groove rock out again for real this time..
His customs do more than Joes so maybe ill switch joe for rock...

A-King-Rock(maybr)-Terry
N-Yama-Geese-Vega or Vice

Kyo I think ill put in my S-groove but who else can i put on there?

Later...:cool:

[Gunter]

There is only one character in the bottom tier in CvS2, and his name is Kyosuke. EVERYONE else has been used to some degree of success...

yes, even DAN.

[Neo Odin]

Dan isnt that bad actually and has a pretty good CC and a crazy
C.groove combo, with experimentaion ive come to find that dan
can do a mk.cross up, c.lp, s.fp into a gaduken which is good damage...

Or you can do the combo above into a level 3 gaduken instead of
a regular one which results in major damage if you were in
K-groove, but even in another groove that combo would still be
very damaging...

PS: Gunter good to hear from you, but what happened to the forums, man...:(

Its kind of like family fun forums which I used to go to but that
sites forums died indefinitley...:(

Yeah I think im going to stick with rock in A-groove, but who
is a all around better character JOE or ROCK?

I think that Rock has more options but joe has that invincible start up on his tiger knee...

None the less Gunter you have a great site, anyone in need of A-groove info go to namonaki, thats where I first started to learn A-groove....

Later....:)

[SaiYuk]

Dan *can* do some pretty good damage, especially since he hits pretty hard. his normals hurt!

Zangief is in no way low tier. but if you aren't at least above average in using him, you get owned pretty bad by people like Sagat....

if I were to pick out 5 bottom tier in the game, I'd pick:
Kyosuke, Yuri, Yun, King... and *maybe* Dan or Vice? or maybe even Mai.

Kyosuke I think there should be no objections.
Yuri, even though has some good traps/tricks that's usable, but deals too little damage in general and has too little life. Gunter's site has some good CC's of hers, but still...
Yun, we all saw A-Yun from last year's EVO, but like... so? Have you met anyone else who can use Yun even half decently? Same reason: low damage, low life
King, pretty much same reason. Low damage and low life. No speed.
Dan or Vice I don't know, I think they can be used well if in the right hands. Vice while having somewhat low damage and life, has better potential than the other 3 I mentioned I feel. Dan has good damage and life, though his specials are limited, he should be able to stand against stronger characters.
And I include Mai not because she's really that bad... but she is like a watered-down version of other shotos. She has a slower (startup/recovery) fireball, weak dp with no invinc. (ryuenbu), invinc. dp but needs charge (flame pillar) also super slow recovery, supers useless outside of combos (no anti-air ability or stuffing ability outside of lvl 3s), bnbs that are no better than shotos' bnbs, lower damage and lower life. not to mention no useful crossups. and she is pretty slow for a ninja :lol: I simply can't find a reason to pick her instead of a shoto, except for uniqueness. Making her pretty useless as a character......

[edit]
sorry I totally forgot about Benimaru when I was writing that. Benimaru would fit in the place right after Kyosuke as the 2nd most useless character of the game... low damage, low life, low damage combos even, low damage supers... aside from speed he doesn't really have anything good.

[epsilon_]

A mai is actually very good... Gunter is right, only Kyosuke is bottom tier. I've seen great King, Dhalsim, and Dan players.

[GF2]

Originally posted by Gunter
There is only one character in the bottom tier in CvS2, and his name is Kyosuke. EVERYONE else has been used to some degree of success...

yes, even DAN.

But you see, Kyosuke's not even bottom tier. He's in the DEEP SHIT tier.

Topic ain't asking for that. :lol:

[RagingStormX]

Beni is pretty good, he just has to low of life and damage. He has high priority normals and has free jump-ins on alot of characters w/o an uppercut (Yamazaki for ex.). He has a good combo int super (short x4, mk xx Run electricity super). His c.mk owns Sagat.

[rsigley]

sure these chars (chang, king, etc.) might do good once and a while, but the amount of work you need to do to get something done isn't worth it why i think they should be considered low teir. if you have to roll cancel everything and turtle all day to stand a chance how does that make them so much better?

[Gunter]

Originally posted by rsigley
sure these chars (chang, king, etc.) might do good once and a while, but the amount of work you need to do to get something done isn't worth it why i think they should be considered low teir. if you have to roll cancel everything and turtle all day to stand a chance how does that make them so much better?

Chang's mid- to upper-mid tier status shouldn't even be in question. He has a solid trap, easy GC sequences, and a high-damage, stupid easy CC.

And TIERS are NOT determined by how much you have to do in order to make them effective. It is based on their effectiveness. PERIOD. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What the majority of SRK believes is the definition of "top tier" (easy to use, priority, damage) is actually the definition of "scrub character" - i.e. characters that can be used by scrubs and are still effective. Guile has a lot of intricacies to him and you have to really learn him in order for him to be effective, but once you learn him, he's extremely powerful. Bison and Sakura take a lot of practice to get their CCs down. Your random scrub can't land them (much less DO them) consistently, but does it matter what a scrub can do? Of course not. You judge anything about the game on how it is when played at its full potential.

As far as RCs go, real players can RC. Real players WILL RC. For THEM, it isn't much of a hassle. Disregarding RCs in determining tiers is preposterous. You aren't examining CvS2 at that point, you're examining a game that only exists in your own mind, and to some extent on consoles (which have never been accurate for conversions since WW).

[marvelscrub]

So you are basically saying Gunter.. Besides the really good guys with clear advantages, and Kyosuke who is apparently, clearly garbage.. Everyone else is EXACTLY the same in terms of rank?

The mid tier all have the exact same chance of winning against the rest of the cast.. ? So there is no "lower-mid" tier?

If anything that's all I'm asking here out of curiosity.. If Kyosuke is THAT bad that he deserve a rank all his own (jeez, pity that guy), then who would be the lower-mid tier? If you had to pick the 5 worst guys in the game, who would they be? Or is it impossible to say?

[epsilon_]

He's not saying that, what hes saying is it doesn't matter how hard you have to work for a win, it matters if you get the win. No matter how hard something is, as SF has proved time and time again, someone will always master it.

[Buktooth]

bottom 3 is pretty easy. Bottom five is really tough.

Let's see...

Worst: Kyosuke (almost unusable)
2nd Worst: Dan (usable, but is fairly helpless against top tier)
3rd Worst: King (fights top tier a little better

...after that it gets all muddled, because I've seen a specialist for EVERY other character in the game that makes their character look crazy good. If forced to pick two though, I'd pick:

4th Worst: Haohmaru
5th Worst: Nakoruru...?

I dunno. The only reason I picked these two characters is because I haven't physically seen the Japanese players who specialize in these characters play. I'm sure they'd show me some crazy shit that would make me change my mind.

As far as what other people are saying, Maki is so NOT bottom tier. At one point in the game (Evo2k2) she was considered top 6 by some Japanese players. Zangief is considered to be one of the best K-Groove characters in the game (Ino thinks top 3). The best Maki player in Japan also has a killer N-Dhalsim and N-Yuri. I could go on and on...

[G-R0C]

Dan is actually mid tier if used right. only kyosuke is unusable.

[Edma]

Yun is a very solid character who just needed a liitle boost in strength and/or health. Honestly, I think a RC Yun beats Blanka and goes even with Cammy. Sagat beats him though. Just too strong.

Yeah, Kyosuke pretty much blows. Slow ass normals. Probably the worst fireball in the game. Good down fierce and supers though. But yeah, he sucks. Use him in K. Everyone is good in K.

[Mummy-B]

King at worst 3? Yo she is not THAT bad.

As long as you keep her in either C or A Groove. If her god damned sweep was still cancellable. Fuck that shit man, she wasn't THAT broken in CvS1 they did need to take that out.

[SSJGogeta]

makes me want to play kyosuke and combo Final Heaven Remix on everyone..... he not entirely worthless LOL atleast not in casual :p .

5 characters I wouldnt use in tournament if I was serious about trying to win

1. Kyosuke(Should have added Soccer guy instead he would have owned LOL)

2. Vice(Ex was good in CVS1 but not anymore)

3. Dan(A groove good but.... gets out prioritized alot)

4. Beni(Was good in CVS1 good normals in this game but shitty Vitality and damage)

5. King(EX king will forever be favorite character in CVS1 but CVS2 she loses pretty badly on high levels because of previously stateed facts)

[box]

Originally posted by Buktooth88

I dunno. The only reason I picked these two characters is because I haven't physically seen the Japanese players who specialize in these characters play. I'm sure they'd show me some crazy shit that would make me change my mind.



Have you seen specialized Vice and Benimaru players in Japan?? I'm curious as to what sort of tricks they have up their sleeve.

[marvelscrub]

beni
sim
kyosuke
vice
king
yun
dan
yuri


Well, these are some of the characters people mentioned as underdogs so far.. I guess Kyosuke is just crap because his moves just suck and it's hard to compete (and I guess maybe Dan too?). But for the rest it seems it might just be that they're so weak in terms of stamina and the damage they dish out.. If you have to hit the other guy twice as much as he has to hit you to win, that sucks. :(

Can anyone fill me in on this Chang trap? ..And K-Gief top 3 Kgroove character ?! O_O that's an eye-opener right there! I would love to see a K-Gief at that level.. against Yama no less. :)

[pain]

Can anyone fill me in on this Chang trap? ..And K-Gief top 3 Kgroove character ?! O_O that's an eye-opener right there! I would love to see a K-Gief at that level.. against Yama no less. :) [/B]

For Chang the BASIC BASIC skeleton of the trap is to throw hurricane choi and mid range, or flying choi from long range. Chang starts to edge forward and react to the opponent.... if the opponent rolls, Chang slides. If the jump, Chang does jumping HP or cHP. If they block advance with jumpingHP (which is one of his BEST normals) or move forward and stick out a s.HK. If the get hit, then throw another hurricane choi if in range, or a flying choi if you're far (obviously you try to mix all this up to keep them guessing).... This is all until the opponent reaches the corner..... now you can trap them with the ball... basics go, throw choi, deep jumping HKXXball. If the ball hits them CANCEL the ball right away and repeat, if they block then it does MASSIVE guard crush and you're pretty safe..... Mix in command grabs every once in a while, and voila... you have Chang in a nutshell

[GF2]

Originally posted by Gunter


And TIERS are NOT determined by how much you have to do in order to make them effective. It is based on their effectiveness. PERIOD. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What the majority of SRK believes is the definition of "top tier" (easy to use, priority, damage) is actually the definition of "scrub character" - i.e. characters that can be used by scrubs and are still effective. Guile has a lot of intricacies to him and you have to really learn him in order for him to be effective, but once you learn him, he's extremely powerful. Bison and Sakura take a lot of practice to get their CCs down. Your random scrub can't land them (much less DO them) consistently, but does it matter what a scrub can do? Of course not. You judge anything about the game on how it is when played at its full potential.

Theoretically, wouldn't that make Kyosuke top-tier for having an infinite in S-Groove?

[Gunter]

Originally posted by GF2


Theoretically, wouldn't that make Kyosuke top-tier for having an infinite in S-Groove?

Of course not. Kyosuke has to get in the red to do that. Back in CvS1, ppl would just NOT let Iori and Mai get in the red so they couldn't do desperation supers. You can do the same thing to Kyosuke now. Just kick his ass enough so he's not in the red, and he'll have a hell of a time trying to catch up. Just turtle it out. Not that you'd need to. You can zone Kyosuke out pretty easily. Plus, you always have to factor in the +/- 5% for human error. One slight error here or there, Kyosuke's toast. He can't take advantage of openings, his moves are too slow and have no priority, and he's not that buffed when it comes to life. Kyosuke played perfectly will never beat any other character played perfectly. He doesn't have the tools to win.

[Neo Odin]

Either way im still sticking with Vice in N, and King in A...

Sorry Gunter but roll canceling isnt my thing even though i can
perform roll cancels...

And I like A-Groove even though Rollerblader said that A-groove
is rocks worst groove I totaly diagreed with him...

Im sorry but K Rock is very boring to me and rock has a decent amount of setups in A-Groove and decent damaging ones too...

(Mind you, hes no Bison, like I said before in the K groove thread about rock)

I do want to learn to play him at a high skill level though,
and i saw your rock combo video on namonaki a while back
when you were first making them, I checked out each vid you had to see what the combos were like, especially when i used to be into A-groove athena. It is because of your site that I learned to use A-groove, then I was able to branch off and make my own combos and mix it up, thus sometimes leading to higher damaging ones than the customs in Famitsu.(I think thats how you spell it :confused: )

Anyway im with you about A-groove King all the way, thanks for having such a great site and props for the vids too....

Later...:cool:

By the way: A-King/Rock/Terry N-Vice/Geese/Yama

[Burghy]

P Zangief is the dominant player when you get to really high levels. Forget cammy/blanka/sagat/bison/sakura

Basically it's very simple. Once he's ahead on life, he can turtle until th emeter runs down: If you stick out any attack he'll parry it. If you try to get past this by throwing him, he'll throw you first with his 0-frame grab. There's absolutely nothing you can do against a Zangief who can parry everything you do and SPD you the minute you get in range.

To get ahead on life, he just advances really slowly, parrying everything you do, until he's in range to SPD you, or you stick out a move laggy enough that he can jab you afterwards. Then it's all downhill from there.

Think about it, nothing can beat it. You can't zone him out forever because he'll be slowly advancing...

[Gunter]

P-Zangief? I'd just A-Sak that. Bait the parry and activate, then DPs over and over. SPD only has one frame to grab, and that'll be eaten up by the activation. Same with any other move. The only thing Gief can do is try to parry the ENTIRE CUSTOM, which is impossible to do. Sak can change her rhythm on the hits, insert a hurricane or overhead, etc. Plus, he was most likely trying to do something anyway... that's what the A-Sak player was anticipating and countered with a custom. P-Gief is good, I'll give you that... but "nothing can beat it" is saying a BIT too much.

[Gunter]

Originally posted by Neo Odin
I made a mid screen CC with her that does about 7500, but the
only thing she lacks is a good anti-air CC...


Now, by "mid screen" do you mean the standard definition of midscreen as in "anywhere BUT the corners" or do you mean a half screen combo (i.e. can only be done through half the screen, going towards the corner)? I can't see a true midscreen combo doing anywhere near 7500, ESPECIALLY starting with c.forward (which all ground combos should start with, because it is her fastest normal AND hits low). Enlighten me.

[Neo Odin]

This combo can be done mid screen (middle of screen or almost mid screen to corner)

GUNTER: i.e. can only be done through half the screen, going towards the corner)

C.FK, FK fireball, cancel into roll, [SJ. FPx4]x2, FK Trap Shot, C.FP,
into super (the one that does the most damage, Silhouette Illusion I think)

If the Fp's are done fast enough you can get one set of 4 and the last set you can get 5 Fp's....

this combo should get you 7500+ with the extra FP, the one above does 7400+....

Hope this helps, this one works well for me even though I dont use C.MK to start it, but you can use a C.mk to start it and probally get just as much damage....:)

Later...:cool:

[Buktooth]

Originally posted by Burghy
There's absolutely nothing you can do against a Zangief who can parry everything you do and SPD you the minute you get in range.

If you ever see anybody that can get even remotely close to doing this, let me know. If I had the ability to "parry everything you do" I would be the best CvS2 player in the world with any character I wanted, even if I didn't have the ability to "SPD you the minute you get in range". Come on now. Let's keep this realistic.

[marvelscrub]

Maybe this is a stupid question.. But couldn't Gief parry the first hit of the CC, then hit Sakura? I know parrying a CC is really hard because you have to anticipate it like a lvl3, but why do you have to parry the whole CC?

[GF2]

Originally posted by marvelscrub
Maybe this is a stupid question.. But couldn't Gief parry the first hit of the CC, then hit Sakura? I know parrying a CC is really hard because you have to anticipate it like a lvl3, but why do you have to parry the whole CC?

This was actually done before at SBO (in a match with Bas, I think), but I don't know which character parried. It wasn't Gief, though.

[NinjMai]

I have to disagree with Yuri being a bottom-tier.

Although she may be a weaker shoto, Yuri does have more pros than cons for her selection. With her air-fireball, she keeps aggressive people predicting and grounded. Her slaps, though they lack a good startup, have good speed and screen coverage. Her throws may as well be commands since they have good distancing and execution. While she may not be as strong, Yuri is no character to consider lowly of. IMO, she's one of this game's most underrated characters.

That said, here are my five choicesof the "lowest" characters:

5) Raiden. He's Zangief, but without the priority and power. He can basically be played as a wrestling turtle, but his lack of speed makes him a moving target for quick characters.

4) Ryo. IMO, Yuri has more to her game than Ryo. He's basically a shoto clone, but with no real way to distinguish himself as a seperate fighter.

3) Balrog. This boxer was so abused. He has such potential, and the makers have to wipe out any hopes for his return to success. In the old SF games, he was almost worshipped for his ability to dash up unexpectedly and knock your teeth out. Now, his punches have weakened substantially, his game has been given no major boosting, and his possibility of a "resurrection from the ashes" has been blown away. I used to love using this guy, but now, the people made him such a shell of his former glory...

2) Hahomaru. This guy is SLOW, slower than some of the heaviest guys, and that boggles me. He had such power in the SS series, but in CvS2, they toned him down...awfully so. I didn't make him the worst because he does have the chance to be good. It just takes major patience and good opportunities, especially with a projectile as slow as his.

1) Vice. I hate this chick with a passion. She is SO annoying to fight. It's not that her moves were made strong. It's that they're annoying to get caught in for their lack of damage. Vice had her day, but the reason why they put her in this game still boggles me. Her only good thing is her lvl 3 hand grab super. Otherwise, all she can do is do light kicks and punches and pray that she gets anything in. To all who like her, I have nothing against that. In fact, I respect the ability that you have to use her. Just to me, I don't see her use or effectiveness.

I didn't put Kyosuke in because I have yet to understand how he is played. My choices were based on both playtime and strategies from how I play (or would play in some cases... :mad: ). I think Kyosuke has a purpose for being there and that there is a person playing who will prove Kyosuke's strength...until then, I give him the benefit of the doubt and choose not to comment on him.

-NinjMai

[kcxj]

Vice is really good. She has a lot of tricks I'm positive the general CvS2 public doesn't know about... I think her pros outweigh her cons by a lot, so it's unfair to say the only thing she has going for her is her level 3 or some other generalization like that. She's one of those characters that people would use a lot more often if 1.) she did more, took less damage and 2.) didn't have a ridiculously high learning curve. Anyway, one of my friends gave me a big boring list of why he thinks she's a complete character the other night. Everything sounded solid to me. People are sleeping on her that's all.

Don't underestimate Haohmaru in K or P either. He can be tough to fight with certain characters. J.HP is good.

[Neo Odin]

I wouldnt be so quick to judge Raiden, cause where zangief lacks in A-groove, Raiden makes up for him, having supers other than
throw, flame breath ect...

His custom does about 8500 on namonaki, and if you start it
with a FP tackle (ready go! (shit)) activate, C.mp, Lp tackle
then continue the namonaki custom, which is about 9200+:eek:
which is just about or more damage than a normal bison custom.
(I think it does more than 9200 but i cant check at the moment)

Truth is, i only know this because I've been experimenting with him latley;)

And that shit is easy as hell and damaging, and since it usually starts with a trip (c.fk) (Raiden) it has good range too it....

Vice is a good character IMO, I still play with her a little cause
Im trying to put a team together consisting of:

Vice or Yun/ Geese/ Yamazaki

But I dont know what groove, any help people??

And I need a redesigned custom team cause originally it was
King/Rock/Terry, but terry's getting boring and repetitive,
So I started using Raiden to fill terrys spot, but now my team seems more akward then it already is....:lol:

Mind you I also use Rolento, and i cant seem to download gunters A-groove Rolento video, but it doesnt matter I'll just get the transcription of the video from his site, thats how I did it with rock....(but i was able to download rocks ;)

anyway if you guys can help me out it would be much appreciated.

I cant do the bison, sakura so that wont work, and i dont like them that much either.....:rolleyes:

Later...:cool:

[GF2]

Originally posted by NinjMai
*snip*

All of your choices are wrong. You're just comparing most of them to counterparts from earlier games and using the designs and learning curves of each one as a gauge for their overall effectiveness. Those selections are positively in the mid-tier range and above for reasons that are mostly the exact opposite of yours and then some.

Originally posted by Neo Odin
Vice is a good character IMO, I still play with her a little cause
Im trying to put a team together consisting of:

Vice or Yun/ Geese/ Yamazaki

But I dont know what groove, any help people??

If you can RC with Vice, go with whichever rolling groove that suits you best. I'd use A, because in the instance I'm fighting a Rolento, I could corner him and use the ground throw glitch on him repeatedly in one CC.

[marvelscrub]

Random Vice question since were talking about her..

If I activate CC, and there next to me, grounded, and NOT doing an invincible move or just starting one.. can they escape the hcb,f+p throw?

Seems like free damage to me. Mind you, i can't do that crazy superjump instant crazylegs CC.. but I can at least do a ghetto easy version for OK damage.

Neo: Rolento's ground CC is easy as pie.. with the only hard part being the cancel into minesweeper. It has been discussed to death, so if you search for it you should find something.

[Neo Odin]

marvelscrub I can do the BAS cc for rolento cause it isnt that hard
and it takes 8000+...

now I dont know exactly what you mean about when "there grounded", the only characters that you can grab off of the ground in a repetitive fasion is dan and rolento in A-groove...
(your using A groove)

But if your saying that if you grab while there grounded and you wont be vulnerable then yes you will be vulnerbal especially if its a shoto, but if you need help there is "1" combo video on this site that you can download and it shows a vice CC in the begining,
then again I havent seen the whole video but the vice CC is on it..

And if you think all my choices are wrong well then thats you opinion GF2, but having odd characters in A-groove isnt neccessarily a disadvantage, but increases the factor of unpredictability, and the other factor of your opponent saying:
"What the fuck" when you select your A-groove chars...
(which happend today at the arcade)

And not everyone uses rolento anymore so A-groove vice may not be the best choice...

anyway if you understood the simplicity of raidens cc then you could probally see were im coming from, but none the less I respest your opinions...(sorry im not a big fan of RC'ing, I think its
cheap and it brings the fun factor of the game down in my opinion, I have other reasons but its too late for that shit right now, at least where im at:lol:

for now this is how its gonna be

A-groove: Rock/Raiden/King R2 but i might replace rock for rolento
N-groove: Vice/Geese/Yamazaki the truth is I havent been playing with this team at all, cause im having more fun using A-groove........

Later...:)

[marvelscrub]

Neo: Ohh.. I thought you were having problems finding Rolento's CC. Looks like you've got it down tho.

When I said Grounded, I meant standing/crouching. Just not in the air, or not knocked down.

What is this "1" combo from what site and from what vid are you talking about?

[Neo Odin]

Sorry about that, its in the multimedia section of shoryuken and
its called xerocrew-CVS2vol.3 and it is down loaded onto windows
media player which takes forever on my computer...

Im still having A-groove trouble though, I mean I want to keep
Rock even though he is a complex character to learn, and I like
him in a groove, and I really could care less if anyone disagrees with the fact that I use Rock and Raiden in A-groove...
(thats what makes me ME)

Anyway I need to get an idea of how a good rock player uses him
maybe I can see a vid somewhere on japs playing with rock,
cause I hear they love him over there...

And ill post a raiden thread in General discussion cause no one
has responded to anything in the character specific... :confused:

and I need help against certain characters.....
Especially fucking athena, oh god just put cable in the game and
shoot the bitch, cause I get down fierced into submisssion.. :( :(
(when im using raiden in A)

But when I get the custom off, guess what? K.O:evil:
And long lived the queen...

I also think im going to stop using king in serious play and focus
on another character, any suggestions? (no I cant bison or sakura that shit, and I really dont like sakura anyway)

yeah and the rolento vid doesnt have any transcriptions up for
him at namonaki so I guess i'll have to look else where...

I thought about putting rolento in there but sagat is scary if he down fierces him at all, which I saw in a tournament today,
and combofiend was in it... :D

maybe I might put terry back in but his shit gets boring after a while, and rocks complexity makes him fun to play with,
I used to use A geese but I had no idea on how to use him stratigically in A-groove....

By the way marvelscrub were probally the only ones still posting to this thread, so what do you think, can you help me out a little?

[Gunter]

Originally posted by Neo Odin
I also think im going to stop using king in serious play and focus
on another character, any suggestions? (no I cant bison or sakura that shit, and I really dont like sakura anyway)


Stop using King??? Shame on you! Actually, if you're not evolved to the point to make RC's part of your gameplay, you shouldn't use her anyway. For non-RC characters and big damage CCs, your best bets are Sagat and Todo. Todo gains a lot from RC grab, but you can make do without it (tragic never RC grabs with him).


yeah and the rolento vid doesnt have any transcriptions up for
him at namonaki so I guess i'll have to look else where...


Ummm.... http://www.namonaki.com/games/transcriptions.html

I'm working on a remodel of the site, so if there's not a link to it now, there will be.

[Neo Odin]

Nah gunter, its not that I want to quit with her because I made
so much progress with her CC wise. When I use her in the arcade
I get spanked by ryu and sagat ect...

I can RC I just choose not too, even though when I decided to
RC once during a match to see if it gave the trap shot anti-air
qualities, and it was kind of scary that it worked like a charm,
I mean both people RC'ing all the time is weird, everyones invincible, and people always call you cheap if you use it...

yeah todo seems like a good A groover, but that custom on your site looks :bluu: like it will take a lot of practice...

I still want to keep using Raiden and Rock in A, but ill either put geese in there again or todo maybe, I can do geese's A-groove okay and my version of the anti air custom, but I lack with him
stratigically in A and im not sure on how to improve, anybody know where I can get A-groove geese vids or a vid:lol:

Raidens custom is damaging also so I like him and the fact that he can break sagats meter pretty well....

dammit I really liked king too especially her custom... :(

Later...:)

PS: going into a c.mk for the start of my mid screen custom is a better option because its faster and it makes the rest of my custom easier..(its just more logical, so thanks gunter:)

So I guess im going for priority over damage, which isnt bad
because it still does about 7300+.

PS: sorry about that gunter I ment to say athena.

[kcxj]

Has anybody made a transcription of BAS's A-Akuma combos yet? I've been trying to learn this character for like a year now, but I suck too much...

edit: from the video on gunter's site.

[Neo Odin]

go to namonaki and download the A-groove akuma vid there are
some sweet combos for him and I think gunter performs one of the bas combos your looking for, and dont feel bad, cause I probally suck even more than you when I attempted A rock...

Dame I could do the customs but my strategy just shouted ultimate scrub, but the truth is I like geese more since he's my favorite character...

Later.....:cool:

[G-R0C]

Originally posted by kcxj
Vice is really good. She has a lot of tricks I'm positive the general CvS2 public doesn't know about... I think her pros outweigh her cons by a lot, so it's unfair to say the only thing she has going for her is her level 3 or some other generalization like that. She's one of those characters that people would use a lot more often if 1.) she did more, took less damage and 2.) didn't have a ridiculously high learning curve. Anyway, one of my friends gave me a big boring list of why he thinks she's a complete character the other night. Everything sounded solid to me. People are sleeping on her that's all.

Don't underestimate Haohmaru in K or P either. He can be tough to fight with certain characters. J.HP is good.

dude!! vice is a bitch!!!

in New Park Mall tilt, this dude was using vice/chang/??? in K. People were almost in shock , they didnt know shit how to couonter chang and vice, since they are underused. i almost took out his vice with my rolento, we had even life, until her throw super came at my face. i had guile and cammy to fight her, my cvs2 guile sucked at that time so i got beaten down.

[Judgment Day]

Originally posted by NinjMai
1) Vice. I hate this chick with a passion. She is SO annoying to fight. It's not that her moves were made strong. It's that they're annoying to get caught in for their lack of damage. Vice had her day, but the reason why they put her in this game still boggles me. Her only good thing is her lvl 3 hand grab super. Otherwise, all she can do is do light kicks and punches and pray that she gets anything in. To all who like her, I have nothing against that. In fact, I respect the ability that you have to use her. Just to me, I don't see her use or effectiveness.

-NinjMai

Referring to the "E-Tai-Yo" Super Only:

Actually, the Lvl3 grab super is good in general, though it's a bit harder to land once 'activated' in any SNK groove based on the time meter (people tend to start running away). In that aspect, I think the Lvl3s, as far as set-ups to connect it, gets awarded to C-Groove (In P-Groove, the ends don't justify the means due to its slow Level Up) since the Lvl3 isn't time based, so you can throw it off anytime.

Don't knock the Lvl1s though...I actually think that the Lvl1s are more useful because it serves the same properties as C/P Groove Level 3 as far as storage ( Thus opening her options for N-Groove, and A-Groove, but who uses Lvl1s in A :lol: ), and it adds up if connected consistently. Heh...Vice is even potentially dangerous in Flashing S-Groove because she's one of the very few characters who actually has a decent Lvl1.

I personally think that Vice has good moves in general and is very versatile in all of the grooves, except for maybe P-Groove (but that's when the parrying skills come in) to an extent. She's simply not strong enough to be considered higher than low-mid tier by the general consensus...but she can still compete. I'll still keep playing her as I have since the game came out. She's cool.

[lucid-d3]

Originally posted by Blackheart2097
IMO dhalsim, kyosuke, benimaru, vice, and king. just my opinion. i haven't seen of those characters used very well much less being able to compete with sagat, blanka, vega, and chun li.

dhalsim, he's good/ok against people who don't use K/P. i dunno about beni but vice and king are bitches. i've only seen console scrubs use king but i know what she's capable of. i've also seen a good K groove vice. have you seen her be played ever? i have never. this guy came in using vice knowing that no one knows how to play against her because no one has seen her, and the guy sometimes gets near ocvs. with decent comp too.

[kcxj]

You don't need any other supers besides level ones with Vice. No point ever breaking stock (or even using N-groove) with her. Her super is one of those "can't jump away if you weren't already... if you were crouching then that's really too bad". The range is suprisingly far too. Vice is good.

[Gwai Lo ½]

Man, that makes two things i seem to have had false ideas about ...

1 - her shoulder seems to be qcf and not hc ... this made doing c.jab, c.fierce, xx shoulder xx orochi move a lot easier to do.
2 - I always thought that her kick super was L3 only...

edit: I think today i will pick a-vice a couple of times and get my ass handed to me.

edit: :lol: according to gamefaqs her qcf+kick move should beat fireballs :lol: maybe if rcd... I can never seem to rc that move though.

[marvelscrub]

it's qcb+p actually.. :)

I always thought her long arm whip move was hcf+k, and not qcf?

Anyhow, one reason why it might be so hard to RC is that vice is cursed with having a not-full-motion special move. Her Nail Bomb is actually b,d/b,d,df+P. So it you try to RC you have to roll at down or you activate the special.

A-Vice is top tier! :)

[Gwai Lo ½]

Originally posted by marvelscrub
it's qcb+p actually.. :)

I always thought her long arm whip move was hcf+k, and not qcf?

Anyhow, one reason why it might be so hard to RC is that vice is cursed with having a not-full-motion special move. Her Nail Bomb is actually b,d/b,d,df+P. So it you try to RC you have to roll at down or you activate the special.

A-Vice is top tier! :)


ahhhh, that's why .. it just reminded me that I always get her grab instead of her low slash... If I could rc her low slash it would be sick. Anti fireball (even tho the fireball will still probably hit you, lol)

[Buktooth]

Originally posted by kcxj
You don't need any other supers besides level ones with Vice. No point ever breaking stock (or even using N-groove) with her. Her super is one of those "can't jump away if you weren't already... if you were crouching then that's really too bad". The range is suprisingly far too. Vice is good.

Actually N-Vice is probably the best Vice imo. She benefits a ton from run/low jump/roll, and her RC shoulder and hcf grab are really really good. RC roundhouse legs is decent too because it gives frame advantage. She also gets tons of level 1's to burn. Her RC hcf+p grab is way harder to do consistently than other hcf moves for some reason though...

[kcxj]

Originally posted by Buktooth88


Actually N-Vice is probably the best Vice imo. She benefits a ton from run/low jump/roll, and her RC shoulder and hcf grab are really really good. RC roundhouse legs is decent too because it gives frame advantage. She also gets tons of level 1's to burn. Her RC hcf+p grab is way harder to do consistently than other hcf moves for some reason though...

My friend who plays Vice refuses to post in this forum so I'll relay his knowledge to the world instead.

I find a patient Vice a lot harder to fight than a running or low jumping one. C or A is the best IMO. She can land a CC off HP shoulder for one thing. qcb+HP, CC, s.HK xx qcb+HP, shoulders to the corner... too good :eek: Have you guys seen how much damage CC blade kicks do yet?

She has a jumping jab that does as much damage as a jumping fierce. Vice j.HP --> 1300. Vice j.LP xx qcb+HK --> 1300. It's also humanly impossible to just defend (set the comp to all JD to see for yourself).

RC shoulder is the best anti-air RC in the entire game. It can't be airblocked plus it's completely safe when JD'd.

close s.MP gives you a huge frame advantage. You can safely mix it up with level 1 tick grab, s.HP xx whip/shoulder, or d.HK even (if the opponent wants to jump away).

The reason I think you're finding RC hcf+p is hard to RC isn't because you're messing up, it's because that special isn't good to RC with in the first place. At first I didn't believe it myself (move should be totally invincible right?), then I tested in training mode. Can't even go through shoryukens never mind supers or anything like that. My theory is that the grab animation (startup and whiff) is too long and combined with Vice's weird roll (she has invicibilty only above the waist towards the end) makes this move crappy. The hcb, f+P move grabs faster (?) and is a better RC.

...or maybe the incomplete hcf thing might be the totally be the problem too :lol:.

Anyway, I reiterate. Vice is good. It's great that people think she sucks though :D

[Gwai Lo ½]

Hmm, i dont have the time or means to learn vice, although ive always wanted to since i first started playing. the thing is she has lots of problems against ground characters such as cammy. and people who jump on your head such as vega its hard to rc shoulder against them. i didnt know you could activate off the shoulder though, that is pretty sick. c.jab, c.fierce shoulder CC, or rc shoulder AA CC.. would be good .. i tried juggling people to corner with shoulders before though, but i couldnt get the timing down .. and sometimes they bounce behind you, or i drop them... and i dont trust my ability to tiger knee her scissor dealies just yet... although i tried once at my friends place and it wasnt that bad. (i dont have a stick or cvs2 at home, lol)

edit: i hate having to rely on RC though. RC shoulder as anti air would be sick, but i mean, there's always that one time you get counter hit -> super when you fuck up ...

[Buktooth]

Originally posted by kcxj


My friend who plays Vice refuses to post in this forum so I'll relay his knowledge to the world instead.

I find a patient Vice a lot harder to fight than a running or low jumping one. C or A is the best IMO. She can land a CC off HP shoulder for one thing. qcb+HP, CC, s.HK xx qcb+HP, shoulders to the corner... too good :eek: Have you guys seen how much damage CC blade kicks do yet?

Err... with the exception of the CC, everything else you posted about A/C Vice can be done with N-Vice. I like N-Vice better for a few reasons:

- Her low jump options are good. Low jump short is one of those "really hard to uppercut" low jump moves, kinda like Rock's low jump roundhouse. After the low jump short you get your standard super grab mix ups. Makes it much easier for Vice to get in than a lot of other characters. Low jump short is also a really good cross up off of certain set ups. Low jump fierce is TOTALLY buff. Beats most everything and can you can combo a fierce shoulder afterwards also.

- Her run sets up a WAY fatter cross up after her shoulder/pull down thingie than her dash does. One of the hardest to block in the game, in fact. Running also really compliments her attacking game... in which running jabs are still really useful since she always has the threat of RC grab or super grab, not to mention low jumps as another mix up.

Of course, patient Vice is the way to go until you get the knockdown. Once you do knock your opponent down, though, N-Vice can take much better advantage of the situation.

As for the RC hcf+p grab, it really is just harder to RC than other hcf moves. Vice's and Athena's grabs are WAY harder to RC than Morrigan's and Todo's. It's still a really common misconception that the properties of a character's roll affects their RCs. If that were the case, Chang's, Guile's and Cammy's RCs would make them invincible for an inordinate amount of time. RC properties are the same for every character. When I do successfully RC Vice's grab it works just as well as any other RC.

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by NinjMai


That said, here are my five choicesof the "lowest" characters:

5) Raiden. He's Zangief, but without the priority and power. He can basically be played as a wrestling turtle, but his lack of speed makes him a moving target for quick characters.

4) Ryo. IMO, Yuri has more to her game than Ryo. He's basically a shoto clone, but with no real way to distinguish himself as a seperate fighter.

3) Balrog. This boxer was so abused. He has such potential, and the makers have to wipe out any hopes for his return to success. In the old SF games, he was almost worshipped for his ability to dash up unexpectedly and knock your teeth out. Now, his punches have weakened substantially, his game has been given no major boosting, and his possibility of a "resurrection from the ashes" has been blown away. I used to love using this guy, but now, the people made him such a shell of his former glory...

2) Hahomaru. This guy is SLOW, slower than some of the heaviest guys, and that boggles me. He had such power in the SS series, but in CvS2, they toned him down...awfully so. I didn't make him the worst because he does have the chance to be good. It just takes major patience and good opportunities, especially with a projectile as slow as his.

1) Vice. I hate this chick with a passion. She is SO annoying to fight. It's not that her moves were made strong. It's that they're annoying to get caught in for their lack of damage. Vice had her day, but the reason why they put her in this game still boggles me. Her only good thing is her lvl 3 hand grab super. Otherwise, all she can do is do light kicks and punches and pray that she gets anything in. To all who like her, I have nothing against that. In fact, I respect the ability that you have to use her. Just to me, I don't see her use or effectiveness.

I didn't put Kyosuke in because I have yet to understand how he is played. My choices were based on both playtime and strategies from how I play (or would play in some cases... :mad: ). I think Kyosuke has a purpose for being there and that there is a person playing who will prove Kyosuke's strength...until then, I give him the benefit of the doubt and choose not to comment on him.

-NinjMai


Wow most of the guys you listed arent even close to bottom tier. Haohmaru in the right hands is a beast, especially in P or K groove and can flat out dish punishment like a madman.

Rog's lvl3 alone take his out of bottom tier contention, never mind his quick jabs, quick dash, quick roll and throws.

Ryo is underrated seriously, he has the one of the best antiair uppercuts in the game, he is a solid defensive character.

Raiden I dont really know much about but from what ive seen he is definetly not bottom tier.

Vice im not sure, ive played her for awhile and besides her solid antiair it seems she really doesnt have much going for her.

[kcxj]

Originally posted by jae hoon
Vice im not sure, ive played her for awhile and besides her solid antiair it seems she really doesnt have much going for her.

Yeah, Vice sucks.

[lucid-d3]

I play as Dhalsim in A and K.

K-Sim/Guile/ZangiefR2
K-Sim/Rolento/Guile-ZangielfR2
K-Sim/Cammy/Blanka-Sagat R2
K-Sim/Morrigan/KyoR2
K-Sim/Dan/Zangief R2 (yes it's the "weakest team ever" , that's
wut the scrubs think, but we all know those characters are good, especially Gief)

and

A-Sim/Sak/Bison
A-Sim/Mai-Guile-Vega-/Sakura-BisonR2

the great thing capcom did about sim is that they stereotype Indians as being skinny and annorexic. and if you didn't know, throw range for all characters is 35 pixels from the center sprite, this excludes command throws. if you don't know what i said there, i'll just say dhalsim has mad throwing range.

you can't ever jump in at sim, the risk of getting retaliation is higher than most characters. if the opponent slides you can either:

Slide
JD throw
l+mk,mp

Sim's slides add to the mind game. they are very misleading. a great setup is , slide CC activate etc.

and his teleport is great too, i like to jump into my opponents , they DP, i teleport, CCactvate or whatever.

Dhalsim is actually a good character, he's one of those characters people would use more often if he takes and gives just a little more damage, like Yun. Dhalsim isn't top tier, so ignore my sig.

[SaiYuk]

Originally posted by lucid-d3
the great thing capcom did about sim is that they stereotype Indians as being skinny and annorexic. and if you didn't know, throw range for all characters is 35 pixels from the center sprite, this excludes command throws. if you don't know what i said there, i'll just say dhalsim has mad throwing range.

wait... I agree with you about that Dhalsim has good throw range, I feel the same way. but are you sure about this 35 pixels thing? because it seems to me certain characters (Raiden comes into mind) has crazy normal throw range. Raiden being the one thats exceptionally good at that can do a normal throw from SO far away it's not even funny. that doesn't look too much like 35 pixels to me, and certainly doesn't look like the same range as other characters like Ryu.

[Gunter]

the throw data is in the CvS2 Game Data section:

http://www.shoryuken.com/games/cvs2/strats/files/throwdata.shtml

[GrasshoppaSoN!]

Originally posted by kcxj




She can land a CC off HP shoulder for one thing. qcb+HP, CC, s.HK xx qcb+HP, shoulders to the corner... too good :eek: Have you guys seen how much damage CC blade kicks do yet?


Are you sure this is possible?
Some special way to do it or something?

Just tested for a good while and st. rh will NOT connect from a fp shoulder dash outside of the corner.

[lucid-d3]

Originally posted by SaiYuk


wait... I agree with you about that Dhalsim has good throw range, I feel the same way. but are you sure about this 35 pixels thing? because it seems to me certain characters (Raiden comes into mind) has crazy normal throw range. Raiden being the one thats exceptionally good at that can do a normal throw from SO far away it's not even funny. that doesn't look too much like 35 pixels to me, and certainly doesn't look like the same range as other characters like Ryu.

yes, 35 from the CENTER of the sprite. so since Dhalsim is skinny, technically he has more throw range, compared to someone fatter like E.Honda, and Raiden is a Rastler so i guess he has great throw range

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by Burghy
To get ahead on life, he just advances really slowly, parrying everything you do, until he's in range to SPD you, or you stick out a move laggy enough that he can jab you afterwards. Then it's all downhill from there. Theory fighter is fun!

[Mummy-B]

I think the statement "Parrying everything you do."

Reminds me of a long ago thread on SRK when an individual kept telling me Geese was top tier because he could counter everything.

[Burghy]

Edit: Sorry.

[Gunter]

Originally posted by lucid-d3


yes, 35 from the CENTER of the sprite. so since Dhalsim is skinny, technically he has more throw range, compared to someone fatter like E.Honda, and Raiden is a Rastler so i guess he has great throw range


Since you obviously didn't check it, let me paste it here:
Originally posted in http://www.shoryuken.com/games/cvs2/strats/files/throwdata.shtml

1.3 Throw Ranges



For most characters, their normal throws have the same range, regardless of whether you use the punch or kick button. A throw's range is measured in "dots" or "pixels". What is this relative to? Imagine that your character's sprite is enclosed in a rectangular box and that there is a vertical line splitting that box in half. The reference point would be where the vertical line touches the bottom of the rectangle. So if your character's throw range was say, 44 pixels, you would begin measuring from that reference point.

The common range for a normal throw is 52 dots. In a more practical context, if the foot of your character's sprite touches the foot of your opponent's character's sprite, you are in the maximum range for a throw.

However exceptions to this fact are: Maki, Yun, Rolento, Raiden, Hibiki, and Chang.

Maki: Punch Throw - 60 dots
Yun: Both Punch and Kick Throws - 44 dots
Rolento: Both Punch and Kick Throws - 60 dots
Raiden: Punch Throw - 83 dots
Hibiki: Both Punch and Kick Throws - 44 dots
Chang: Both Punch and Kick Throws - 64 dots




So you see, it IS from the center of the sprite, but Dhalsim's is not 35 pixels, it is 52, just like just about everyone else BUT the exceptions listed.

[kcxj]

Originally posted by GrasshoppaSoN!

Are you sure this is possible?
Some special way to do it or something?

Just tested for a good while and st. rh will NOT connect from a fp shoulder dash outside of the corner.

It's one of those one frame links. Again, Vice has a high learning curve. I'm 100% positive it works though. The recovery of the shoulder dash is deceptive. It looks like Vice has fully recovered and can do whatever she wants, but in reality you still have to wait for a split second before you CC. Double tap the HK button too.

[Gwai Lo ½]

double tap is definately not necesarry. and the s.rh after the shoulder doesnt work all the time.

[AMinorThreat]

Kang better be quiet about the vice stuff James is threatening to destroy your 360 :X. THATS RIGHT PEOPLE YOU CANT DO ANYTHING OFF THE SHOULDER ;).

PS. When are you open to play? Im GGXXed out and want to get some cvs2 practice.

[marvelscrub]

I knew s.strong could connect after a shoulder check.. but not a s.rh.

Will s.RH allow another shoulder check to connect from anywhere on the stage? that's the only problem I have with s.strong. I can only use it from the middle of the screen and closer to the corner.. If I'm cornered myself, no dice.

If I'm REALLY cornered, I can do the pull down whip, and CC after that.. but that's another story.

EDIT: Nevermind.. It DOES allow you to connect a check from anywhere on the stage. It's just harder to do.

[kcxj]

Originally posted by AMinorThreat
Kang better be quiet about the vice stuff James is threatening to destroy your 360 :X. THATS RIGHT PEOPLE YOU CANT DO ANYTHING OFF THE SHOULDER ;).

PS. When are you open to play? Im GGXXed out and want to get some cvs2 practice.

What kind of stupid threat is this? You can play with yourself in the meantime...

[kcxj]

Originally posted by kcxj
The hcb, f+P move grabs faster (?) and is a better RC.


This move is impossibly difficult to RC... LK blade kicks get in the way every time. I couldn't do it at first, so I tried breaking down the motion and just doing HCB motion, slight delay, roll. With that kind of input, Vice should just do just do a simple roll right? No dice... Vice does a delayed LK blade kick. Looks like the special move overrides the roll command. conclusion ---> Hitting roll at neutral will not work.

The only other way I can think of is to hit LP+LK at down or down-back. But if you do it like that, you have to go to back, neutral, then forward+P punch all before the roll leaves it's cancelable frames (frame 1-3 or whatever short time it is). conclusion ---> Possibly not humanly possible.

The RC version of this move is infuriatingly hard. Just do the normal move and take your free CC's as usual instead.

----------

RCing hcf+P

Hit roll exactly when you hit back. End your motion at down-forward. Making everything a clear distinct input. Playing, and getting pissed over, VF4 helps :lol: (that game registers NOTHING unless you do it perfectly). Vice does a clear grunting sound everytime you're sucessful, so it's very easy to know when you've done it right. I RC with Blanka a lot and it's usually hard to tell with him. When I used Vice and noticed the contrast I was like "Wow... that's an RC" *points finger at the screen*.

[AMinorThreat]

James cant log in so he told me to post that for him. I dont mean any harm by it, me and Tony wanted to play you though but I guess your busy :\. PM me if your free anytime when your in the area.

[AmakusaShiroTokisada]

Vice is da truth! fa reels dawg!