Street Fighter 4 [Archive] - Page 3

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Kataklysmic

08-23-2005, 05:36 PM

Yeah but look when it was made, or when it was released.

Now we have Marvel Nemesis coming out, which will probaly beat MvC2 in terms of sales, just because its more of what the general market wants from a fighting game.

Maybe. But I don't believe Activision's take on an X-Men fighting game series generated an estimate one would call prosperous.

CvS2 didn't cost jack to make, not to mention the XBL version of it wasn't released till some good time after its initial release, and was XBL really anything special for it? No, because in Japan when CvS2 was released on the DC it had a Online/Network mode, just like basicly all of Capcom's fighters released on the DC in Japan. XBL only made a diffrience with the US audience.

Do you know the exact production costs then? Because I figure that with all the groove installments, new characters, new animations for old characters, hitbox management and background designs that it'd at least take as much as it did developing SFA3.

Again, a few things. CFJ didn't cost really any money to make, and the only reason Capcom even made it was to try and get back the money they lost developing Capcom Fighting All Stars (and a few other games like Jo Jo's Bizzare Adventure 2)

How much money did they lose from CFAS?

Okay think about this, how much do you think it would've cost to make CFJ look as good as Warzard and include all those other options, and would it make back the money it cost to produce? No, because now days a game like that just can't really be that successful anymore.

Of course not. Not if you try to bundle everything into one package and expect to earn shitloads on the first try. That's why Capcom's made revamps for so many of their series. Even if they've done it to make up for production costs, they still capitalized on where they faltered with previous games and eventually earned enough to make up those costs and then some.

They're not the only ones either. Just look at Sammy. GGX2 sold like dope when they released it in the US. They didn't really start to lose money with that series until Isuka.

I mean look at SF3, it had the best animation of any fighting game, by TS it had a good sized roster, etc, but suprise suprise, it wasn't successful in Capcom's eyes.

People have been waiting forever for SF3. It failed not because it was 2D, but because they set too high a standard, thereby putting far too much money into its development. And given its somewhat lackluster gameplay and invitation, releasing it almost simultaneously with SFA2 wasn't the wisest thing to pull off. That's what happens when you're making important decisions and become full of yourself.

Basicly its like if Capcom does a all new fighting game, they want it to be as successful as DMC3, or RE4, or whatever recent successes they've had. They don't want to make a game thats just going to appeal to a certain fighting game lover crowd. They want to make games that appeal to the entire gaming market.

Can't argue there, but hey, there's always cel-shading I guess.

Sammuraiblade

08-23-2005, 08:10 PM

Isn't Beatdown some what a 3d Fighter? Can Street fighter 4 have the appearance of something like this:

http://img2.kult-mag.com/photos/00/00/53/98/ME0000539806_2.jpg

http://209.11.151.163/beatdown/menu.html

TAS

08-23-2005, 08:29 PM

Isn't Beatdown some what a 3d Fighter?

Its a 3D Action Game or "Beat-Em-Up" Game, much like Final Fight, Streets of Rage, Fighting Force, etc, etc.

Isn't Beatdown some what a 3d Fighter? Can Street fighter 4 have the appearance of something like this:

http://img2.kult-mag.com/photos/00/...000539806_2.jpg

Well thats a pre-rendered FMV model, its not the ingame model, plus like I said earlier SFEX3 showed that SF dosn't translate well into a 3D realistic kinda look.

Visualy Beatdown kinda looks like Def Jam: F4NY but with worse graphics.

It does look somewhat intresting, but Im sure it'll suffer from the same problems that most every action (beat em up) game suffers from, ie it being repeatitive, not having much replay value, characters not having alot of attacks, etc, etc.

Maybe. But I don't believe Activision's take on an X-Men fighting game series generated an estimate one would call prosperous.

Probaly because it was nothing special, and American made.

Do you know the exact production costs then?

No, but I know they weren't nearly as high as something like SF3 was, because it reused ALOT of sprites, which are what take the most time to do, BGs, and everything else really aren't that hard or time consuming.

new characters

What new characters were in the game? Im pretty sure all the characters in CvS2 had been in previous games.

new animations for old characters

The new sprites for characters like Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Bison, Terry, Andy, Mai, etc, etc, were really the only part of the project that was time consuming and cost a bit of money, but what, of a cast of like 30, how many were new sprites? Like 10?

And of all the Cacpcom/SNK games, the best one ended up being the one that took the least amount of time to make, the SNK Vs Capcom: MOTM on the Neo Geo Pocket.

How much money did they lose from CFAS?

Enough for them to have to put out another game to make the money back.

CFAS was a good ways into production, and was almost done from scratch, so it cost a bit, not alot, but enough, and don't forget that they also had to make up for stuff like Jo Jo's Bizzare Adventure 2 and Onimusha: Blade Warriors (which has got to be the absolute worse, and/or most repeatitive fighting game I've ever played)

Of course not. Not if you try to bundle everything into one package and expect to earn shitloads on the first try. That's why Capcom's made revamps for so many of their series. Even if they've done it to make up for production costs, they still capitalized on where they faltered with previous games and eventually earned enough to make up those costs and then some.

But Capcom dosn't want to have to do that upgrade stuff anymore, becuase they still cost money, and still run the risk of not working. Like do you see Capcom having to upgrade anything like RE4 or DMC3? They just want to do one game and move onto the next game or sequel.

08-23-2005, 08:40 PM

@TS
I disagree about the SFA3 endings being misinterpreted/mistranslated, specifically Bison's ending. Bison wanted Ryu to be his next host body, a host for Psycho Power. Ryu's body can apparently store a lot of Psycho Power in, so when Ryu was hooked up to the Psycho Drive, Bison didn't explode because there was no overload of Psycho Power.

Bison wasn't looking for a new body to switch to, at least not initially, he was looking for a host strong enough to store Psycho Power in. If Bison got his hands on Ryu, he wouldn't need to switch to a new body because the one he already is in wouldn't burst. Right, but I'm saying Bison never switched bodies at all. Bison never seemed too worried about his condition...it wasn't like "oh no, I have to much energy, I need to switch bodies because this one is being destroyed." Like I said earlier, that wouldn't make sense anyway, as he'd have the same energy even if his body were different. The only time he's in danger is when he gets beaten, and, for whatever reason, loses the ability to control his own energy, and then blows up, but by then it's too late.

I's ironic that Capcom had him die in the endings as he did...literally exploding in a ball of light, to show that he was super-dead. Ironic that it's become the basis of why people think he survived.

I also do believe Alpha3 took place before SF2, if Alpha3 was intended to replace the plot of SF2 then why did Capcom bother revising the SF2 endings in the latest version of SF2.

..you mean how they were changed so they were more like SFA3...? That's my point. They adopted elements from SFA3 into SF2, not because it was a prequel, but because they overlapped.

I don't think this is a mistranslation. Although you are correct, we don't know for a fact that Bison's soul merged into Rose's body after Alpha3, that whole part of the story is a blur and is conjecture. All we know is that Bison got his hands on a new body just in time for the second tournament.

My whole point is that Bison never needed a new body (and, has never demonstrated an ability to switch bodies)...Look at it like this: If SFA3 was meant to be followed bySF2 (it was not, but let's say it were), a bunch of things simply could not have happened. There are a bunch of characters who surely would show up, if not to stop Bison, then because they wanted to enter the tournament (A3 has twice as many characters as SSF2T). A1 and A2 dealt with this much better...

That aside, ignoring the character thing...there's a bunch of stuff that didn't happen...A3 endings all contradict each other, because Bison didn't lose to ~30 different characters an equal number of times, exploding each time. So, it's much more plausible that Bison was defeated and didn't explode in spectacular fashion. Thus, no need for a new body.

Now, he is shown dying as he does in the A3 endings to show that he's dead...but, I guess seeing that, some people figure that he must have needed a new body afterwards, if he were to participate in SF2 later. This was not the case.

To assume that Bison has a new body is to assume that he both needed a new one, and is able to switch bodies...the latter of which has never been demonstrated. Bison only needs a new body if he lives after SFA3...he does not. Even if he did...he could have just, you know...survived. The whole switching bodies thing is a big, big misunderstanding. Bison never wanted Ryu as a new host body, because he was never looking for one.

If you were to look at SFA3 as the end of the SF2 timeline, as it was meant to be (call it a dream-match if you want, whatever), the game makes much more sense. It's when you try to cram it inbetween A2 and SF2 that you have problems, especailly with the endings. A3 was made to offer resolution...the remake of SF2 with the altered storyline came YEARS after, and, of course, was not accounted for in A3.

Either Bison explodes and dies in A3, or he doesn't...explode -> body switch doesn't work.

bill_rizer

08-23-2005, 09:29 PM

Oh they'll make more versions, especialy if its 2D.

The only reason they released more versions of SF3, was because SF3 didn't make anywhere near what it cost to produce, so they had to do upgrades that didn't cost alot to produce so that they could try and make back the production cost of SF3, and I don't even know if they ever made back what SF3 cost, although if they didn't Im pretty sure they came close.

Capcom basicly gave up on doing all new 2D fighters after that. I mean SF3 had the best animation and production values of any 2D fighting game (even to this day too I think) but when Capcom saw that even the best 2D fighter out there couldn't cut it in terms of money intake they kidna figured "whats the point of doing all new 2D fighters anymore if they're not going to make back the production cost?" thus we haven't had a completely all new 2D fighter from them in almost 10 years.

you speak the truth times have moved on, its just some of us can not get out of the past.

This is why i think if their really is a SF4 then it is a rehash, think in the style of KOF neowave but SF2 neowave aka the 4th SF game.

I find it hard to believe capcom have been working on something totaly new, CFJ should have showed them 2d fighters dont make much money.

Its business after all.

Rioting Soul

08-23-2005, 10:25 PM

I really doubt it's gonna be a rehash. With all Capcom's been doing with the SF name lately it seems they are trying to resurrect the franchise so the costly SF4 won't fall on deaf ears.

Like I said earlier, that wouldn't make sense anyway, as he'd have the same energy even if his body were different.

Maybe Bison was looking for a body that could better contain the energy(Ryu)? It was officially stated the his Psycho Power was becoming stronger than his body could hold, so we can conclude that Bison was losing control. Bison has an immortal soul so if he didn't worry about getting a new body then the result would be Bison blowing up then taking a new body then that one blowing up ad infinitum. In A3(before SF2) Bison blew up. In SF2 Bison has a less bloated body and has a noticable lack of power. I think that's enough to conclude that Bison had a clone of himself made ahead of time(or jumped in Rose, but I doubt it) and possessed that body after blowing up. If Bison didn't have an immortal soul and couldn't possess other bodies then the fact that Shungokusatsu traps souls in hell would not be stressed.

Am I correct in saying that Charlie died in A3? If he did then A3 must've occured before SF2 because Guile wanted to avenge Charlie in SF2. The Udon comics seem to back this up. If A3 was meant to close the SF2 timeline like I think you are saying then Bison lost the WW2 tournament then killed Charlie.

truth0ne SGC

08-23-2005, 10:37 PM

Golden Dragon

08-23-2005, 10:47 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't SFA3 totally negate SSF2T?
It definitely should, but I don't think it officially does.

Daemos

08-23-2005, 10:47 PM

@TS

Right, but I'm saying Bison never switched bodies at all. Bison never seemed too worried about his condition...it wasn't like "oh no, I have to much energy, I need to switch bodies because this one is being destroyed." Like I said earlier, that wouldn't make sense anyway, as he'd have the same energy even if his body were different. The only time he's in danger is when he gets beaten, and, for whatever reason, loses the ability to control his own energy, and then blows up, but by then it's too late.

I's ironic that Capcom had him die in the endings as he did...literally exploding in a ball of light, to show that he was super-dead. Ironic that it's become the basis of why people think he survived.

Again, Bison didn't need to switch bodies. Bison needed a body strong enough to hold Psycho Power in.

Let me explain what I mean. The Psycho Drive channels negative energy, it's like an oil derrick it's syphoning a resource. The problem is the only silo to store the oil in is Bison (maybe Cammy & the dolls too) so now Bison needs to find a new silo for the oil and Ryu is the most compatible one.

Bison didn't want to switch bodies but HE did want a body to house more Psycho Power, or else his body would've overloaded.

Can Bison's soul switch bodies? I think so. He does tell Ryu (and several others) that "you can destroy my physical body but my soul is eternal". Bison's body wouldn't explode of course without the Psycho Drive, that's the reason it exploded.

We also do know that Bison's soul did not die in A3. Rose and Guy sensed this in their ending.

As for why Bison is fat in A3 and thinner in SF2. I personally think it's an artistic choice but you could say 2 different bodies because that really IS the case.

Golden Dragon

08-23-2005, 11:00 PM

@TS

Again, Bison didn't need to switch bodies. Bison needed a body strong enough to hold Psycho Power in.

Let me explain what I mean. The Psycho Drive channels negative energy, it's like an oil derrick it's syphoning a resource. The problem is the only silo to store the oil in is Bison (maybe Cammy & the dolls too) so now Bison needs to find a new silo for the oil and Ryu is the most compatible one.

Bison didn't want to switch bodies but HE did want a body to house more Psycho Power, or else his body would've overloaded.

Can Bison's soul switch bodies? I think so. He does tell Ryu (and several others) that "you can destroy my physical body but my soul is eternal". Bison's body wouldn't explode of course without the Psycho Drive, that's the reason it exploded.

We also do know that Bison's soul did not die in A3. Rose and Guy sensed this in their ending.
CORRECT

As for why Bison is fat in A3 and thinner in SF2. I personally think it's an artistic choice but you could say 2 different bodies because that really IS the case.
Agreed. Bison's differences in physical appearance in the Alpha and SF2 series is merely a result of each artist's interpretation. Whether or not M. Bison got a new body, the 2 'versions' are NOT proof that he did. Notice that Bison's height/weight in CFJ and CvS are the same as his SFA series height/weight.

TAS

08-23-2005, 11:30 PM

The only reason the the Alpha/Zero games came about was because of the SF2 Animated Movie.

Whoever made the SF2 anime decided to make it take place prior to SF2, to try and explain what happens between SF1 and SF2, and of all the SF2 characters, Bison was the only character who got a design change, because the poduction company felt he'd seem more threatning if they made him alot bigger, and prior to all the retconing I believe the SF2 anime actually followed the canon, or didn't try to do anything to contradict it.

Then Capcom was so impressed with the anime that it inspired them to make their own very animated style prequel, ie you can basicly say that SFA is Capcom's version of the SF2 anime, and their are various tributes or things pulled from the anime that were put in SFA, like the muscular Bison, Ken's long hair, the grassy Sagat Vs Ryu stage, Ryu and Ken's SFA3 special intro, Ken giving Ryu his red headband, etc, etc.

One of the dumbest things I found about SFA though, was its title. In Japan its called Zero and in the US its Alpha, both mean beggining, but storyline wise it comes after SF1, although Im guessing they felt it was appropriate since it was a prequel, or maybe the initial plan was to have or make it take place before SF1 (cause I don't know that the first now non-canon SFA game had any indication that it took place after SF1)

Hcparker

08-24-2005, 01:21 AM

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't SFA3 totally negate SSF2T?

I thought that the inclusion of ALL Alpha charas plus ALL SF2 charas kinda made SSF2T obsolete. Why even let SSF2T stand when it features weaker charas, story elements and gameplay? I mean, the nostalgia factor is cool... but...

Because SSF2T is Bison's revenge essentially AFTER his defeat in A3. He gets his obligatory revenge attempt at those he holds responsible for his death.

Plus it's the first appearance of Akuma in a SF game before he became overexposed.

Alex has two plots in SF3, one is tied to Gill as Gill hints pretty strongly that Alex is remarkable even by his standards. The other plot he has is tied to Ryu as it's made very clear that he intends battle repeatedly in the near future until he beats him at least once.

08-24-2005, 01:59 AM

Here people go again, assuming Capcom actually knows what the fuck they're doing.
(horrendous typos mostly fixed)

Maybe Bison was looking for a body that could better contain the energy(Ryu)? It was officially stated the his Psycho Power was becoming stronger than his body could hold, so we can conclude that Bison was losing control.

Ah, but that's the thing...the way it's worded makes it sound more perilous than it should have. Capcom USA was on board with the idea of Bison needing a new body, as that's how Bison's A3 bio/Ryu's ending were mistranslated for/by them. We can conclude only that Bison has reached the peak of power that he can hold in his own body...ostensibly, safely. We could say the same thing of Shin Akuma, that doesn't mean he needs an actual new body.

Bison has an immortal soul so if he didn't worry about getting a new body then the result would be Bison blowing up then taking a new body then that one blowing up ad infinitum. In A3(before SF2) Bison blew up. In SF2 Bison has a less bloated body and has a noticable lack of power. I think that's enough to conclude that Bison had a clone of himself made ahead of time(or jumped in Rose, but I doubt it) and possessed that body after blowing up.

As Golden Dragon explained, Bison having a different body in the SF2 games was an art style choice...Ryu didn't have a lot of moves in SF2 that he had in SFA2, does that mean he got weaker? That's simply an in-game issue, not relevant to the storyline. My contention being that, at no point, ever, in the history of ever, has Bison switched bodies.

If Bison didn't have an immortal soul and couldn't possess other bodies then the fact that Shungokusatsu traps souls in hell would not be stressed.

Bison gets hit by the SGS in Akuma's A3 ending, also. How the SGS is described to work is really probably just to make it sound cool, in reality. However, assuming you're right, it doesn't confirm that Capcom had Bison killed in SF2 excluisively. Especially considering it was just a mysterious super move until post-SSSF2T, and how it worked was described later.

Am I correct in saying that Charlie died in A3? If he did then A3 must've occured before SF2 because Guile wanted to avenge Charlie in SF2. The Udon comics seem to back this up. If A3 was meant to close the SF2 timeline like I think you are saying then Bison lost the WW2 tournament then killed Charlie.

The Charlie thing is interesting. Given that A3 re-writes a lot of things, Charlie could have been thought to be dead in A2 and then come back (they had to have a reason forhim to be in A3, after all, or you could just figure he was never there), which gives Guile a reason to show up. There are two, and only two things that point to SF2 being after SFA3: Cammy's story, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Charlie's.

Cammy's moreso, because she dissapears afterward, and it's not clear whether Delta Red Cammy was turned into a post-SF thing (/left to the alternate version of events from SF2), or whether or not she actually comes back (Shadowlaw Cammy's was stuck in instead, as she has less exposure and is more interesting was given an explanation). I wouldn'tbe surprised if SF2-era Cammy was supposed to make it into A3 if they had time, like th different versions of Balrog, Akuma, etc...but even that doesn't make it clear.

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't SFA3 totally negate SSF2T?

I thought that the inclusion of ALL Alpha charas plus ALL SF2 charas kinda made SSF2T obsolete. Why even let SSF2T stand when it features weaker charas, story elements and gameplay? I mean, the nostalgia factor is cool... but...

^Genius!!

It definitely should, but I don't think it officially does.
Probably true. Just as A3 over-wrote some SF2 events, seeing as how Capcom had stated that it would make no more SF2 games after SSF2T...Revival comes out, and borrows some A3 things. I'm very interested in the following, however: Is it ever stated in that game (or anywhere else in any SF2 data...the stuff after 1998 when A3 was released, obviously....that Bison (JPN Vega) got a new body? You'd think it would be a significant enough deetail to say specifically..."BTW, Bison got blasted to atoms last game, and is back now...with a new body!" I'm particularly interested in the Japanese version of Revival, but even if it's in the USA version...

Not saying "after a defeat in previous attempts, Bison is back and..." But anything about an actual, new body. Because I'm 100% sure it's not in the Japanese version, and like 97% sure it's not in the USA version, mistranslations or not. If that is the case, 20 points for me. I don't know if it was you, Sano or vasili10 who said a couple pages back that there's basically no info on what happened in between A3 and SF2, storyline-wise...

There's a reason for that. That's what I'm saying.

@TS
Again, Bison didn't need to switch bodies. Bison needed a body strong enough to hold Psycho Power in.

Let me explain what I mean. The Psycho Drive channels negative energy, it's like an oil derrick it's syphoning a resource. The problem is the only silo to store the oil in is Bison (maybe Cammy & the dolls too) so now Bison needs to find a new silo for the oil and Ryu is the most compatible one.

Bison didn't want to switch bodies but HE did want a body to house more Psycho Power, or else his body would've overloaded.

I'm pretty much with you up to this point. I'm not sure if Bison's bigger concern was himself overloading (he seems to arrogant to worry about that, and it's a convenient plot device which allows him to be done in by his own evil deeds), but that he's not getting the max amount of power that he wants to fuel his ambitions.

Can Bison's soul switch bodies? I think so. He does tell Ryu (and several others) that "you can destroy my physical body but my soul is eternal". Bison's body wouldn't explode of course without the Psycho Drive, that's the reason it exploded.

We also do know that Bison's soul did not die in A3. Rose and Guy sensed this in their ending.

As for why Bison is fat in A3 and thinner in SF2. I personally think it's an artistic choice but you could say 2 different bodies because that really IS the case.
CORRECT

Not exactly! Assuming the the Bison quote was correctly transated (or Capcom USA did'just make it up, as they do sometimes), it's evil villian banter...as a matter of fact, I don't remember him saying it in Ryu's ending specifically, certainly not before he explodes. The only endings I think I remember it from are Juli and/or Juni, which are inconclusive. It may have been in Charlie's also (though it doesn't seem to be in the Japanese version). In Juli/Juni's ending it would just be Bison having the last laugh, and him activating some sort of time bomb to go off in the clones, or having their life synchronized with his own is much more believeable than him jumping bodies (especially conisdering tleast one of the doll experiements shares his own DNA).

We do NOT know that Bison lived post-A3, and that his soul didn't die...it is assumed, because it is assumed that A3 is followed by SF2, where Bison is alive (again).

As for Rose and Guy both sensing that Bison is alive...not really the case. Rose is, at best, unconcious in her A3 ending, at worst, dying. That she is barely alive could mean either, considering the source material was translated from Japanese, and Cap USA does censor things...blood in the A3 endings, for one, they're probably not above softening the blow of a female character dying a violent death. I do believe, however, that Bison lives in Rose's ending, though it's not truely clear;

Assuming the line about Bison and Rose going to the same place is accurate, I'm inclined to believe they both died, and the state of Rose's being was edited in the USA version... So Bison's flashing aura in Rose's ending could just be an "evil triumphs," last lauh sort of thing (though I suppose that's the case whether Bison lives or not). I assume Bison lives in that ending (See also: SFA1).

And, you're right...Guy does sense Bison's presence....in Rose's ending. ...ONLY there. Guy senses that he is alive, and, guess what...that's the ONLY ending where Bison may live, other than his own. The other endings in the game go out of their way to show Bison dying. So, it's no wonder people look to this one for evidence... Another gripe about the body-jumping thing...how ridiculous is it that Guy would be able to sense Bison's being alive...but not know that he was holding him? Let's give Guy a bit more credit than that. That's just silly.

Agreed. Bison's differences in physical appearance in the Alpha and SF2 series is merely a result of each artist's interpretation. Whether or not M. Bison got a new body, the 2 'versions' are NOT proof that he did. Notice that Bison's height/weight in CFJ and CvS are the same as his SFA series height/weight.

Everyone read this over and over until your eyes bleed.

One of the dumbest things I found about SFA though, was its title. In Japan its called Zero and in the US its Alpha, both mean beggining, but storyline wise it comes after SF1, although Im guessing they felt it was appropriate since it was a prequel, or maybe the initial plan was to have or make it take place before SF1 (cause I don't know that the first now non-canon SFA game had any indication that it took place after SF1)
You underestimate the power of Engrish. Just like people in Japan will wear shirts with silly things written on them in English, and people wear stuff over here with Chinese/Japanese writing on them and don't know what they actually mean...Street Fighter Zero soudns cool. And, wouldn't necessarily have the same connotation of being zero from a storyline perspective (pre-SF1), like Zero wasn't the first robot built in the Megaman games or Resident Evil Zero didn't precede Resident Evil 1. A new start.

I agree that the Alpha games were meant to take place in between SF1 and SF2...at least, that's how they STARTED. However...let's just say that SF2 takes place at SFA2.5 (post A2), if you want to put it on a timeline. Either SFA3 overwrites SF2, or all kinds of stuff from A3 never actually happened. If the latter were true, then Bison never died, and thus never needed a new body. If the former is true, as I contend that it is, Bison did die...and WOULD have liked a new body, bu them's the breaks.

Like I said before...if you look at SFA3 as it's own game, not expecting SF2 to follow it....no problems. When you try to jam a square peg into a round hole, you run into problems. Bison doesn't need a way out of A3 to get to SF2, just like Charlie, really doesn't need a way out of A2 to get to A3. The former making far, far less sense than the latter (the whole body-jumping thing only exists as a theory because it's the only way someone could explain Bison surviving, and is weak, to boot...my point being that it's not needed).

Daemos

08-24-2005, 06:47 AM

I think the only way to settle this is to read the Japanese endings.

Personally, I'm gonna stick to the belief that SF2 takes place after A3 (which is supposed to take place in the 80s unlike SF2, in the 90s). Although I understand why people would think SF2's plot is negated by SFA3 I don't buy it.

I'll concede to this however. We don't know HOW Bison returned for SF2. All the stuff Bison said to Rose about both of them sharing the same soul is very strange, he also said that his soul can never die (he could've meant this metamorphically in relation to his ambition, that he will never be forgotten even if he dies).

I also don't think EVERY ending was meant to happen. As the plot guide explains it only a handful happened and even those didn't happen in their entirety. I'm inclined to believe that endings like Charlies, Chun Li's, Rose and possibly Cammy/dolls happened because of their relevance.

Bison doesn't need a way out of A3 to get to SF2, just like Charlie, really doesn't need a way out of A2 to get to A3. The former making far, far less sense than the latter (the whole body-jumping thing only exists as a theory because it's the only way someone could explain Bison surviving, and is weak, to boot...my point being that it's not needed).

Charlie was in A3 simply because his A2 ending didn't happen. I disagree that the theory is weak, it is supported by a lot of in-game dialogue (which is all open to interpretation and circumstantial but that's what we get from Capcom).

As Golden Dragon explained, Bison having a different body in the SF2 games was an art style choice...Ryu didn't have a lot of moves in SF2 that he had in SFA2, does that mean he got weaker? That's simply an in-game issue, not relevant to the storyline. My contention being that, at no point, ever, in the history of ever, has Bison switched bodies.

I agree that using Bison's differing appearance in Alpha and SF2 as proof that he has a new body is a weak argument. However, it doesn't change the fact that he may have switched bodies anyway.

Bison IS weaker in SF2 because he doesn't have the Psycho Drive, doesn't mean he's weak though. He could still do the basics like Psycho Crusher and levitation.

08-24-2005, 12:02 PM

OK. I'm gonna quit after this. Breakdown of Rose info from the plot guide...I didn't want to bring this over to the SF storyline thread in the fanfiction forum, since I've already started here.

ROSE

Street Fighter Alpha 3: Rose is visited by a guy who tells her of his
sister (the Doll, Aprile), whom was kidnapped by Shadaloo [Official
statement]. It was probably around then that Rose began to learn about the
Doll project and realize what it was about [Conjecture]. Searching for
Bison, Rose came across a man named Guy who was also opposed to Shadaloo.
Guy didn't like how she was so recklessly jumping into things, alone, and
wanted to come along, but Rose refused [Official]. Rose also probably came
across Vega, later on, and demanded that he give her Bison's whereabouts.
Vega is perplexed and wondering why Rose would go to her death without a
second thought, and doesn't understand Rose nor M. Bison and why the two
want to battle like that [Conjecture from in-game storyline]. Rose finally
hunted down Bison and found him. There, Bison told her that she arrived
earlier than expected, and that he has another appointment (most likely
Cammy), and for Rose to come back, later. Needless to say, Rose refused,
whereupon Bison sicked one of his Dolls, Aprile, on her. Rose, remembering
about Aprile from what her brother told her earlier, is insulted that Bison
would sick a Doll on her and even think that the Doll could win [Conjecture
based off Rose's Juli and Juni fight and the official statement about
Aprile's brother going to see Rose].

However, while she at first had the
upper hand, Bison began to turn the battle and dominated her mind.
Laughing, Bison tells her that they are two lives that share the same
soul. (1)He then tells her that SHE will be the one who will stand victorious
when the world of eternal doom comes. Rose realizes to her horror what
Bison means. (2)M. Bison's other two plans for a new body (Ryu and Cammy)
failing miserably, Rose gets to be the unlucky one who finally does get to
become Bison's new body. The two halves of the same soul finally coming
together again, Bison takes over Rose, then all turns black. Guy finally
catches up to Rose, and finds her unconscious. (3)There aren't any deep
physical wounds, but he can sense that there is something wrong with Rose.
Eventually, Bison gets destroyed by Chun-Li, Charlie, and Guile. As Guy
carries Rose away to the hospital, he realizes that Bison is finally
destroyed, and the world doesn't need to fear Bison anymore, but yet, (4)as he
holds Rose, he feels this sudden chill which he can't explain [Official].

Where Is She Now: (5)As hinted by an official artwork of Rose holding Bison's
hat, Rose, with Bison's soul (which is her soul too since they share the
same soul), took over control of Shadowloo and led it until Shadowloo
scientists were finally able to construct a new body for Bison, which his
soul was able to migrate to. Course, then Akuma in SF2 sent Bison's soul
to hell via the Shun Goku Satsu and Rose's went along with it [Official].
...that's a terrible way for a character to go, IMHO O_o

Miscellaneous Facts and Notes

Rose is based off of Lisa Lisa of the manga, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
(series 2), I think. They do look really similar... I heard that Capcom
even admitted to imitating her right down to the fighting style for Rose.

Rose is referred to as the fortune teller of Genoa. Which tells you
which city she's from.

The Doll Aprile's brother (who doesn't have a name) once visited Rose
to ask about his sister before/at the beginning of SFA3.

(6) Bison taught Rose soul Power.

What's up with Bison and Rose? Well...

Bison and Rose share the same soul. Actually, they ARE the same soul. (7)The
reason Bison is so 'hes evil' is because Rose is supposed to be the good
side who somewhere along the line split off from him without him realizing
it as he got more and more into the negative energy powers of psycho
power. Thing is, Bison really was never a very nice guy in the first place
so when Rose came along, she was more morally apathetic than good, but she
still had the whole "Kill Bison!" thing going on. (8)She didn't realize it
all her life until Alpha when she finally began to hear about and meet
Bison though. That's also why Bison's older than Rose (Bison is probably
at least 45 years old. He killed T Hawk's father 30 years before SFA3
Oo). Basically, if Bison got Psycho Power around then which he probably
did to kill T Hawk's father, Rose would be around 25 to 35 or so which
seems about right. (9)In Rose's SFA3 ending as well as that Freudian official
art where Bison's holding her, that's actually supposed to represent Bison
finally taking over her mind and merging with her again or something. Or
at least planting the seeds for it. Basically, after Charlie finally
killed Bison by blowing up the psycho drives... well, Bison's soul had to
go SOMEWHERE while Shadowloo scientists constructed him a new body for
SF2...

(10)So, as it turns out, the reason Rose is twirling around Bison's hat in the
official art that came after the official art with Bison dominating her is
because in between that interval between SFA3 and SF2, she really DID get
to be the High Lady of Shadowlaw. Of course, by then, it could be argued
that that wasn't Rose... or maybe it could be argued that it was because
she and Bison's soul are one and the same.

When Shadowlaw finally got his new body ready, his soul transferred over to
that. And he got killed by Akuma in SF2. So the likely scenario now is
that his soul got killed (and thus Rose) too (or Rose's body somehow
mutated into the M. Bison you fight in SF2. Either way, the Shungokusatsu
targets the soul, though, so...). There's still a small chance that Rose's
soul remained within Rose's body and is now camatose, as Capcom has not
officially stated that she's dead.

On a side note, one of the reasons why Rose is weaker than Bison and Bison
was able to dominate is again because Bison wasn't even a very nice guy in
the first place. Psycho Power feeds off negative energy, so by ditching
what little good he had, he was able to become extremely powerful. (11)The
merging with Rose is another explanation why he was weaker during SF2
because now he was no longer pure evil and psycho power... well, relies on
evil (unlike soul power, though otherwise the two are one and the same).
Bison himself doesn't take Rose seriously because he sees her as so weak
compared to him. (12)He didn't even care to use her body which was why he
created Cammy to be his back-up body, instead, even though he knew that
Rose was naturally a possible back-up, anyway. That's also probably why
Rose was so insulted when he sicked Juni and Juli on her, because the whole
doll project mocks Rose that way. It's basically Bison saying "I know I
could use you as a back-up body, but you suck so much so I'm going to
genetically engineer someone else to be it." Bison in his pre-fight
dialogue to Rose in SFA3 doesn't take her seriously either. He basically
says "I have an appointment with someone else. Go away. You annoy me."
before saying "Whatever. Play with these two dolls. I'm busy." and sends
J&J after her (though canonwise, it might have been some other dolls
besides Juni and Juli. Juni and Juli substitute for all doll conflicts in
SFA3, I believe. Which is why all twelve fall down with them in their
intro). Wouldn't be surprised if she fought Aprile, instead.

Whew... that's... quite a lot, huh? ^^ (13)As you can see, Bison does possess
Rose finally in her SFA3 ending. And yes, the whole "Rose being the good
side and Bison being the bad" is official statement, though really, I'd
like to think that people would be able to figure that out with just a
little thought from the dialogue in Rose's SFA3 ending...

Rose could be some metaphysical creation from Bison's good energy that
he ditched when he mastered Psycho Power... though that wouldn't explain
how she managed to manifest in a physical form. It hasn't been confirmed
that she's a metaphysical creation from it so it is probable that some
random poor pregnant girl just got slammed with Bison's good side after he
began dabbling in Psycho power and Rose was born from her. Note: This was
NOT similar to sex. Rose is not Bison's daughter. (14)At any rate, this is
highly likely since Rose has a birthplace and ethnicity. Since Bison is
significantly older than Rose, I imagine she came about as Bison began to
master psycho power more and more and his negative energy became so strong
that it booted what was good in him out to who knows where. Neither Rose
nor Bison knew the other existed until SFA1/SFA2. The first time they met
(Shortly before SFA2), Rose was obedient towards Bison. Which is why they
talk about thus in SFA3.

One of the reasons that Rose's power is called Soul Power is because
she's a physical manifestation of part of Bison's soul.

Rose has become her own personality, now. In fact, she was born a
different person, as you can see by the fact that she has a birthplace (as
opposed to Cammy, who's birthplace is '???'). She may share the same soul
with Bison, but Bison himself said they are two different lives. Those of
you who drooled after Rose then were struck silly by finding out that she
and Bison were one and the same may breathe a sigh of relief, now.
Especially since all hints point that Rose was born a female and always was
one. >:P She just shares the same soul as Bison. My guess is that when
Bison's good side got booted out of him, it flew into some nearby pregnant
(or soon to be pregnant) mother then, or something like that.

Rose looks significantly younger than M. Bison. This would most likely
be because she was born after Bison began mastering Psycho Power which
caused his soul to split. Odds are pretty good that Rose is in her late
twenties to early thirties during SFA3.

According to official statements, Rose was visited by Aprile's brother
to ask about where Aprile was. The name of Aprile's brother wasn't given
(Aprile herself is Italian). This is probably what clue'd Rose in on the
dolls of Shadowloo, which is why she knew who they were in her storyline
after she beat them (J&J in the game).

Technically, because she's the first female side of Bison ever and all,
you could call Rose "The First Doll".

A while after SFA3 (and FF3), Guy went missing. (15)A conjecture of mine
that I feel is probably the reason why Guy dissappeared is that Rose, whom
he saved and now knew about him and knew that he was unsuspecting of her
and how she was now one with Bison and evil, hunted down and killed him Oo

I'm unsure about Rose's SFA3 nickname, but it’s something about a
mysterious eye.

She performs her fortune telling in Genoa.

Her fortune-telling is very popular and she has a good reputation
because of it.

Aprile's brother's name is Maggio. He's her younger brother.

The Mansion/Palace of Mystery - Rose's home and base of operations.
She performs her fortune-telling here.

Her SFA stage is located in an arena, night time (Italy). Her SFA2
stage is located at Genoa City Port, Italy. Her SFA3 stage is located in
the “Palace of Mystery (Italy)”.

There is a good amount of circumstantial evidence and speculation that
Rose could be the little girl, Anita, of the Darkstalker series (though I'd
take it with a grain of salt if I were you). The biggest source of this is
that in Donovan's ending for Vampire Hunter shows Anita 20 years later, and
she's wearing a dress and scarf which looks VERY similar to Rose (she
herself looks darn similar to Rose, too). There are still some slight
differences though (a double set of buttons instead of single and the scarf
is slightly smaller than Rose's shawl). Other smaller notes about this are
how the time lines don't completely fit, but Capcom never was very good
with timelines, anyway. Of course, there also isn't any confirmation that
the Darkstalkers series takes place within the SF universe (I don't think
the stage background cameos in SFA2 really count), unlike other game series
which have glaring evidence such as Final Fight or even Rival Schools. The
circumstantial evidence that Rose is Anita is very convuluted though and I
don't recall all the details, but it's there. Anita, if you include the
fact that she and Donovan weren't supposed to be in Darkstalkers 3, would
be semi-close to Rose's estimated age in SFA3 (given the estimated time
that Darkstalkers 2 occurs and judging by Lei Lei and Lin Lin's nonKuang
Shi ages in the two games depending on how you interpret their endings
and... argh, yea, this is convuluted). She has latent mysterious psychic
powers, and she even has an obsession with her doll (Rose doll connection
and all). However, if you don't include the fact that she and Donovan
weren't originally in DS3 (perhaps it was an override by Capcom), Anita
would be too young to be Rose. Of course, there's no actual official
confirmation that Rose is Anita whatsoever. Nor any truly tangible or hard
evidence. I'd be rather surprised if it were true, myself. Furthermore,
you still have to give it a leeway of like... five years or so for it to
fit. ...whew. If some of this doesn't fit in exactly, sorry about that.
I'm not a Darkstalkers storyline guru by any means^^

1. The actual quote is "it is you who stands victorious in the world of eternal doom." Semantics, but as written in the plot guide it refers to an event, and not a place, as was the original intent, I think.

2. Supposition, as I mentioned before. I know I said it a hundred times, but once more for good measure. There is no evidence, in any source AFAIK that talks about Bison changing bodies...IIRC it's even stated in the plot guide, for about a half a sentence, that there's no info on it. Some, please correct me if I'm wrong. Him exploding in SFA3 is worth mention if he's back in SF2...clearly. The plot guide also mentions in Bison's section that the A3 boss version of him is named Final Vega (USA Bison)...yeah..."final," right in there...

3. Well, there's the bleeding, and the fact that she's probably unconcious, and that her body is limp. There was blood in Rose's ending which was edited out, for the most part...It was in one version of the arcade game, but not most of them, and is still in the Japanese versions of the game. If it's in any of the US console versions, I don't know. Minor gripe.

4. Highlighted because that's the only part of the statement which is official.

5. Supposition, based only on some vague reference about a woman around one of the Shadowlaw bases...IIRC it was an old one, and thus it's infinitely more likely that it was a reference to either Chun Li (spying) or Cammy (spying or having worked for Bison) predating Rose's existence as a character.

6. The official info seems to be that Rose trained under Bison, not that he taught her how to use Soul Power (semantics). The difference between having an English teacher, and being taught to speak English.

7. Complete supposition. It's stated that Rose and Bison use a similar type of power, that Bison uses negative engergy, and Rose uses positive...that does not mean that Rose was born of Bison.

8. Not true. She trained with Bison before Alpha, obviously, as she was already trying to kill him in A1. Thus, they had to have trained together before then.

9. 100% supposition.

10. Supposition, completely. Based on the old (pre-SFA? Pre-SSF2?) reference to a woman involved in Shadowlaw matters (which I can't seem to find in the plot guide anymore), which could easily be a reference to Cammy or Chun li, or an NPC.

11. He's not weaker during SF2. They cited somewhere the loss of his teleport as an example...Ryu doesn't have his hurricane kick super in SF2, is he weaker? Guile doesn't have his Sonic Boom super, is he weaker? That's in-game stuff, because SF2 was made before the later games, obviously.

12. Supposition, probably based on Cammy being a "substitute body..." that does not necessarily mean that he was going to put his mind into Cammy's body, it could easily mean that she was to be used to experimented on. Once again...Bison has never, ever-ever demonstrated the ability to switch bodies. Correct me if I am wrong. It should be somewhere, in some account, specifically...yes? Or something about him coming back from the dead, yes?

13. The offical statement is only that Rose uses vaguely "good" energy and Bison uses energy based on negative human emotion. There is no info that says Rose and Bison were ever once the same being, as far as I know.

14. The part about Bison and Rose not knowing each other is demonstrably not true, as explained in #8. If it weren't the case, and Bison didn't know who Rose was (which I suppose could be easily checked by playing SFA/SFZ1), that was something Capcom retroactively changed at a later date. Even if A1 doesn't count as canon, it demonstrates that Rose has been after Bison for a while, and not just "shortly before A2," like they were all buddy-buddy the weekend before. If anything, it can't be stated that they were on good non-hate terms "shortly before" A2. The second part, about the name of Soul Power is just unoffcial AFAIK, and supposition.

15. Guy dissapeared because he's a mysterious ninja guy. The fact that he is killed by Bison is based on nothing. It's a guess, based on the theory that Bison inhabited Rose's body (which I obviously dispute). Even if that were the case, Guy could have gotten away. And, again...if Bison were RIGHT there, and Guy was HOLDING him, I think Guy would figure that out. Just a guess. Supposition on my part. Guy dying would also explain why he's not in SF2, but those sort of explanations are fully unnecessary for anyone but the characters who don't appear in the game...and they're actually there. Guy isn't in SF2 because Capcom didn't feel like using him in a fighter until SFA, years later.

Rioting Soul

08-24-2005, 01:46 PM

15.:

Yeah, I don't think Capcom would kill off Guy of all people in such a clandestine way(they can kinda get away with Adon). It's possible that Guy is taking care of comatose Rose right now. I don't expect that new Final Fight game to explain anything.

TAS

08-24-2005, 02:02 PM

Yeah, I don't think Capcom would kill off Guy of all people in such a clandestine way(they can kinda get away with Adon). It's possible that Guy is taking care of comatose Rose right now.

Well its been like 20 years since SFA3. I always imagined Guy being came comatose (like if Bison did posess Rose's body then kicked his ass) cause that way there would at least be an explination as to he hasn't been seen in the last 20 years of the SF timeline.

I don't expect that new Fatal Fury game to explain anything.

Well Guy might show up in the new Final Fight game, either as a cameo, or as a secret character, or they'll do something stupid like make him a bad guy or something, but anyways the the new FF story dosn't even make sense anyway, or just seems totaly non-canon, ie Cody has a brother, oh well thats great cause according to CoJ Cody had no family, and then Cody gets kidnapped by Mad Gear (or something like that) again which makes total sense, considering how good of a fighter Cody is or the fact that somebody would want to kidnap him, ah Im just poking all kinds of holes in this new FF game and it hasn't even come out yet.

If Capcom of America wanted to do another game, they should've done another Maximo game, cause thats the only good thing I've ever see come out of them, and Maximo is a good example of something. It was inspired by the classic Capcom game Ghost N Ghouls, but did they call it GNG? No, which was good because it was something diffrient and the creators recognized it as something diffrient while still being similar, and didn't try to cash in on existing franchise namem unfortunatly this isn't the case with the new FF game, I mean change Cody's name and would it even have any connection to FF? Which is a good example of why they shouldn't of even bothered calling it FF, ie if you can just do a name change or two and totaly distablish its connection, then don't even bother.

Rioting Soul

08-24-2005, 02:39 PM

Oops. Let me edit that.

The Illuminati

08-24-2005, 06:52 PM

According to the street fighter plot guide,Alpha 2 takes place in 1988 while alpha 3 takes place in 1990.

The Illuminati

08-24-2005, 07:02 PM

And as for the characters in sf 2 being weaker then alpha seris,Sf2 takes place during the 2nd world warrior tournament,One of the restrictions in the world warrior tournament is one super art per battle that's why in sf3 your allowed only to select one super art.

Hcparker

08-24-2005, 07:14 PM

The lack of an explaination for Guy's disappearance isn't really a big deal. Considering Capcom forgot who his master was at one point I can't really go after them for this.

Golden Dragon

08-24-2005, 07:18 PM

Wellman

08-24-2005, 07:50 PM

Guy didn't disappear for to long. The fool is in Final Fight 3, basically said what FF2 said he was training.

Ultima

08-25-2005, 09:31 AM

Gah. I was wondering why this thread suddenly blew up another 15 pages since I last posted. What a lot of rubbish.

re: SF story

Well, Golden Dragon seems to have covered most of what I was going to say. I admit, I too thought that SFA3 over-wrote SF2 once upon a time, but that's simply not true because you CANNOT reconcile Shadaloo Cammy and Delta Red Cammy. Even if you ignore all the Rose/Bison crap, Cammy is still a different character in SFA3 than in SF2, complete with different ages (16 in SFA3, 19 in SF2) and one's backstory leads into the other. It is Cammy's story, more so than Bison/Rose rubbish or even Guile/Charlie, that establishes that SF2 takes place after SFA3.

re: Hugo/Andore & Mike/Balrog

These cases are both an instance of Capcom being coy, but they have different answers. Logically, Hugo = Andore. There are too many overwhelming similarities (BTW, concening Hugo's appearance on a billboard in SFA3; note that SFA3 is the first Alpha game that came out after Hugo showed up in Second Impact; if SFA3 came out before 2I, I'll bet money that it would have said "ANDORE" on the billboard), far more so than Balrog/Mike. Hugo's backstory also fits in perfectly for it. ANd yes, there is a family of Andores - just look at old official Final Fight 1 art. There's about 5 Andores (Andore/Hugo, Andore Jr. [Hugo's little brother], Uncle Andore, Father Andore and Grandfather Andore), all looking very similar but there are different heights (I forget who's supposed to be the tallest) and wear different coloured clothes.

The case of Mile/Balrog is different. While there are numerous similarities, apparently their back stories are different: Mike was a former world boxing champion who accidentally killed someone in the ring and was banned; Balrog/Mike Bison (same first name, just to confuse the issue more) was never a champion, although he aspired to be one, and never killed any one.

So Mike is really prototype M.Bison/Balrog, but he's still a different character. Hugo/Andore is pretty much the exact same character with a different name in different series.

re: SF4

It's still a bullshit rumour as far as I'm concerned.

And astonishingly, TAS is right about SF4 and 2D and sales and what not. SF3 left a bad taste in Capcom's mouths - too much work for too little reward. NO way are they going to do that again. I'd seriously disagree that CvS2 cost "jack shit" to make; CFJ, yes, but not CvS2. Even with 30 or so old sprites, that was still tremendous work on Capcom's part. It didn't cost as much as SF3, but that doesn't mean that it cost little to make.

To the guy who was talking about GG's total worldwide sales, I actually was including all sales for all versions across all systems. And yes, I'd still be very surprised if all versions of GGX/GGX1.5/GGX2/GGXX#R crossed 100,000 copies. I could be wrong though. I just wish I had actual sales to back me up.

Finally, much love for Spider-Dan, as usual. There's no reason why cell-shaded characters couldn't work, and concerning perspective, just right-angle the camera to the characters at all times and give them no (permanent) movement into the z axis. Or, what Dan said. :p

Just so that I don't appear too much of Dan fagmortimer, I have to comment: I don't know about MvC2 being a "3D engine" at heart. That's the first time I've heard that. Can you expound please Dan?

Concerning Bleach: It looks good, but if SF4 (or whatever) were to go that route, I'd like to bump up the resolution as high as possible so it looses the jagged edges.

ParryAll

08-25-2005, 03:11 PM

To the guy who was talking about GG's total worldwide sales, I actually was including all sales for all versions across all systems. And yes, I'd still be very surprised if all versions of GGX/GGX1.5/GGX2/GGXX#R crossed 100,000 copies. I could be wrong though. I just wish I had actual sales to back me up.
.

Here's what I found:

Guilty Gear X - 1,287; 117,404 total sales
the week of 2.26.2001 to 3.4.2001

Source: http://www.junkmagnet.com/games/dreamcast/news/04022001.html

-The numbers are from the old Dreamcast magazine in Japan. So the game sold through 100,000 on the DC alone in Japan. These are only DC numbers, and don't include PS2 or Xbox!

Now, let's factor in that Guilty Gear X was released on the PS2 in Japan and North America. One would imagine those numbers to be at least equal the DC numbers, and probably alot higher.

Then factor in XX, also released in Japan and USA. XX#R released in Japan and USA on Xbox, GG Isuka, released on PS2, and the upcoming GGXX#R Slash.

I couldn't find any numbers for PS2 Japan or US, nor Xbox numbers. If anyone has them please share.

-edit-
Final sales of the DC version of GGX total 126,000. (Source: http://www.c-direct.ne.jp/english/divide/10106426/6426_01/6426_06.pdf)

08-26-2005, 02:13 AM

TS
I agree with a lotta tha stuff you've said within the last few pages except for your opinion on SFA3 replacing the SF2 series, storyline-wise. While I believe that SFA3 should officially override the SF2 series and its plot, I don't think it does. I'll tell you why.

Without the SF2 series there would be no Delta Red Cammy. Cammy's SSF2 series ending reveals her past as a Shadaloo agent, right? So then SFA3 expands upon/explores her past as a Shadaloo agent. Why would SFA3 supersede SF2, when SF2 is the game in which Cammy's past with Shadaloo was originally stated/established?? Notice that Cammy's profile/bio in 'Eternal Challenge' mentions both her past as a Shadaloo Doll and her more recent status as a Delta Red member seeking the truth about her past.

I would say that A3 doesn't really REPLACE SF2, but changes it- I'm thinking that some of the things which happen in the A3 timeline don't happen in SF2 (ie, Psycho Drive, Bison dying, etc), at least not in the same way. They don't completely overlap...post-A3 is not post-SF2.

A few years ago, some guys at Capcom of Japan were sitting around a table talking about the new SF project, and one of them says "hey, I have a great idea! Since this is going to be the last SF Zero game, Let's make Z3 really good, by throwing in all of the SF2 characters!" The guy across the table says "that sounds great! We already have a Cammy sprite we can edit from SFZero 2 Alpha...so we just need the other 3 SSF2 characters, and the 5 original SF2 characters! Ooh, and we could throw in like Cody, from Final Fight, but give him a new look! And some new characters, of course...this will be great!"

And then they went out for sushi. Storyline issues weren't really reconciled, they just came up with a backstory for the characters which seemed appropriate at the time.

Cammy is the way she is in A3 because I'm sure a lot of people like that version of her better, and she's the version most people never saw...and, the fact that Capcom already had her character sprite around is probably not a coincidence. However, A3 is it's own game; in the world of A3, SF2 doesn't quite exist, at least not clearly. So, while it's clear that Cammy loses her ties to Shadowlaw in A3, and may become the SSF2 version of Cammy later on, it won't be during SF2. A3 turns back the clock from SF2, but different things happen.

Guile needed a reason to be in the game...the problem was, they needed Charlie to be there, too (they were having a game with everyone in it, after all). How would YOU reconcile this? The Charlie/Guile situation CAN lead into SF2...assuming Capcom ditched that whole thing about Charlie dying because his plane was shot down, because that never happens in any of the games. Or, it could not happen- Charlie could die a hero's death in Guile's ending, and you have somewhat of a different character left with Guile. Bison may or may not come back, but I don't think Capcom would make Bison weaker in SF2 anyway.

The Psycho Drive angle doesn't sync with SF2, for that same reason. They Psycho Drive may have existed in that timeline as some sort of experiment, but certainly not to the capacity it did in A3. It was something not accounted for in SF2, because the idea came about many years later...however, if Bison were to live after A3 and proceed to SF2, he would have to come back fundamentally weaker than "Final Bison." (more specifically: Final Bison is more powerful than the SF2 version as a character, but SF2 Bison was never stronger than he is circa SF2.) Not wanting the boss character to be a weaker version of his former self, I don't think Capcom would allow that part of the storyline to carry into SF2. Also, in the SF2 storyline, Bison's goal seems to be a more broad world domination thing...not the story about capturing Ryu and harnessing his power, which was lifted from the SF2 anime. They don't even know each-other in SF2, AFAIK (unless that's been changed, also), so again, the two games exist independantly.

Fei Long is the same...he can still quit movies and open his own school regardless of whether or not SF2 or Alpha takes place. It can happen to Alpha Fei if SF2 never happened, and it can happen to SF2 Fei if he was never around in A3. And didn't he NOT become a movie star in his SSF2 ending, or did Capcom change that? Because he wins some movie award in his A3 ending.

Honda and Gief being friends I didn't really know about. And since I was talking about the plot guide earlier, I hope the "Zangief is gay" thing has been put into a seperate, "rumor" section, as the whole thing seemed to be based off of the fact that Zangief says he likes Ryu (LIKES...not wants to be sodomized by, but LIKES), as was discussed in the nice SF storylile thread we have here at SRK. That aside, Alpha 3 takes place where the characters are younger than in the SF2 games, but SF2 does not necessarily actually happen. So things you hear about a characters past are generally explored during the Alpha games, but they do not HAVE to lead into SF2. An example would be Cammy... In the other direction, you have someone like Bison, who's goings on seem to be quite different.

(BTW, in SF2, her backstory was that she was a servant of Bison's but something happen, and in the process of losing her memory, she became scarred. A3 Cammy is already scarred. Complete concidence? I say so.)

IMO A3 is more a sequel to A2 with some SF2 elements (characters, X-ISM, which is a reference to SSF2X, etc), than a prequel to SF2 which keeps some stuff from A2. A2, on the otherhand, is better at being an SF2 prequel than a legitimate sequel to A1.

I'm not sure about the SSF2TR endings, except that Sagat's was changed to be less hateful, and more closely resemble his SFA3 one. All I know is that the Japanese SSF2 ending, Bison supposedly said to Cammy that she used to kill for him, and in the US version they changed it to them being lovers (which is actually slightly worse, IMO, but whatever). I assume the SSF2TR ending says something more akin to the OG Japanese version? Were other story points changed, other than Cammy and Sagat's endings? As for why they would be changed...the A3 version of things offer more resolution, so they were adapted to SF2.

I'm not really saying that A3 is the "official" storyline for what happens during/as opposed to SF2, but instead that it doesn't really precede it, as it is, and that it's incongruous because it's its own thing. The only way you could say that that A3 happens before SF2 is to severly alter the story of one of the games.

If you're looking at games individually, A3 makes sense. If Alpha were it's own timeline, A3 fits OK after A2. If an Alpha/SF2 timeline were being done, the clearest order would be Alpha->SF2, or A2 -> SF2. A3->SF2 doesn't work, because A3 is, essentially, an end (at least for Bison). If you want to make some of the stuff from A3 happen, you have to remove entire story elements, and some characters probably shouldn't even be there.

damon_II

08-26-2005, 03:55 AM

Someone was talking about a leeking concept picture for Ryu's new look. Where can i see it?

Cant anyone post a url.

Ultima

08-26-2005, 07:20 AM

TS:

> I would say that A3 doesn't really REPLACE SF2, but changes it.

This is correct. No one is disagreeing with this. The thing is, the revised SFA3-SF2 storyline is currently regarded as THE canon storyline. SF2's story (such as it was) has been replaced. It has been retconned. It happens all the time in comics and videogames (think SF is bad? MK is 1976198713 times worse).

BTW, Balrog's (Boxer) ending in Revival was altered as well as Cammy's (I believe it actually refers to her being a "clone" of Bison) and Sagat's. Basically the same thing as his SFA3 ending, where he takes over Shadaloo and runs it into the ground very quickly. So yeah: Revival reconciles more with SFA3, though still not perfectly cause OLOL CRAPCOM LAZY.

Sano

08-26-2005, 07:54 AM

Feilong's ending has been retconned in Revival too, he dissapears from the movie world to become a legendary fighter.

Still it's really annoying. You'd think that they would of included the Revival endings in HSF2 AC even as bonuses but no. Arguing that a Gameboy game that has the dreaded Akuma glitch has the canon endings is not easy... I get that some of the endings can stay because crap like Blanka not knowing his name or Cammy Vega(Cape) being lovers was never in the Japanese version but still.

Honestly right now Capcom of Japan doesn't really give a crap about SF's story, they told Studio Udon that there is no SF story, each game exists within it's own universe. But as Tiamatroar said before, there is just too much evidence that there is a 'canon' with the All About Books and such, it just doesn't seem that the people left at Capcom really care about it otherwise there wouldn't be.... wrong and strange things in SF Eternal Challenge like R.Mika competing in SF2 for christ's sake.

But with SF Eternal Challenge in everyone's hands available in English and Japanese, if SF4 happens to be a storyline sequel I just hope they build on what's in SF Eternal Challenge and not make anymore retcons like 'Vega(Cape) never died ever' and so on. But I'm betting that they are going to throw the storyline to the winds or make it so unconnected it doesn't matter like SF2 did to SF1 and SF3 did to SF2, I'm not holding my breath on Alex/Gill/End of the world getting resolved when only 2 percent of the gaming population cares about it.

At least the comic should rap up SF3's story if they last that long. They are going to resolve the Ryu vs. Sagat rematch too and give up Vega's(Cape) origin whoa... what I hear of Gouki's 'origin' in the SFA Generations Anime doesn't sound too good... hopefully Udon will do better with Vega's origin, but I haven't seen the new Anime yet.

ParryAll

08-26-2005, 03:05 PM

What about Charlie/Nash's ending in Alpha 2. Where Bison shoots him down, his dogtag falls, and he presumably dies. Was that not Canon? -That was a kick ass ending too btw, as were all the A2 endings-

None of the Alpha 3 endings made any sense. They were all just retarded and poorly done, every characters ending just showed that character blowing up Bisons base in some retarded fashion (like E.Honda and Blanka butt slamming all Bison's equipment :xeye: ) This with exceptions (Cammy's ending and Rose's ending to name a few).

Charlies and Guiles endings were dumb too. The way Charlie dies in A2 you understand why Guile wants to kill Bison in SF2. But in A3 Charlie dies a nobel death.

I always thought Alpha 3 was just some "dreammatch" esque game and not real canon, and that was why every single character was in it, and why characters all had the same stupid "blow up Bison" and not individual endings. But I guess you guys follow these things and know whats up I don't really.

TAS

08-26-2005, 03:59 PM

What about Charlie/Nash's ending in Alpha 2. Where Bison shoots him down, his dogtag falls, and he presumably dies. Was that not Canon?

That should help a bit, but really, Capcom had Charlie die in all his endings, just to be safe, because they weren't sure which game was going to be the last to feature him.

That was a kick ass ending too btw, as were all the A2 endings-

None of the Alpha 3 endings made any sense. They were all just retarded and poorly done, every characters ending just showed that character blowing up Bisons base in some retarded fashion (like E.Honda and Blanka butt slamming all Bison's equipment ) This with exceptions (Cammy's ending and Rose's ending to name a few).

Well SFA2 was just done really well overall.

See unlike SFA and SFA3, it actually seems as if the game had actually been planned out, like they had actually done some pre-production work on it, cause unlike every single other SF game (that I can think of) SFA2 was the only one where each character had their own specific boss (and sub boss) and made it seem like each character kinda had their own path. The only thing that probaly would've made it better is if all the characters had dialogue with one another (and not just the boss fights) kinda like SvC, and the endings were better because of that. Notice how basicly all of SFA2's endings were canon while really none of SFA3's were.

I always thought Alpha 3 was just some "dreammatch" esque game and not real canon, and that was why every single character was in it, and why characters all had the same stupid "blow up Bison" and not individual endings. But I guess you guys follow these things and know whats up I don't really.

You're kinda right, I mean SFA3 wasn't really needed, aside from a few things, or rather SFA2 and SFA3 could've been one game or one single story, because everyone had the EXACT same stories between each game.

Like I always thought that Capcom could've covered it all in one game, for instance give each character a set path (of what characters they fight against) with dialogue for each and include their whole story, like with Ryu everything that happend in SFA2 would happen, Sagat would be a boss fight (which is where SFA2 ended for Ryu) and then he might have a few matches after that ending with his match against Bison, ie one path, one game, all canon.

I always thought Project Justice had the best Story Mode of any fighting game. You chose a school, then each school has their own path which of course crossover with all the other schools, and the story develops before and after every fight (with the use of a comic book panel storytelling style) and even though every school had the boss (Demon Hyo) every path was unique and part of one whole overall story, and each path that had their own resolution, and there was no contradiction or confusion or any crap like that. The only things left unresolved were who actually beat/kiled Hyo (although Im guessing it was Kyosuke) and what happend to Kyosuke.

I wish more fighting games were done on the level that PJ was, cause then we wouldn't have all this messy story crap when it comes to fighting games, and people would be well informed of what goes on just from playing the games, which is how it should be.

felineki

08-26-2005, 05:26 PM

R.Mika competing in SF2
That would be so freakin' awesome.

Sano

08-26-2005, 05:37 PM

The only thing that probaly would've made it better is if all the characters had dialogue with one another

They do in the Japanenese version in the form of character to character winner to looser quotes, they all have one quote for each of the characters. They are never translated here with the exception of SF3 Second Impact. CVS2 quotes >>>>>>>>>>>> SVC Dialogs. Capcom actually respected SNK characters while SNK crapped all over Capcom characters in SVC Chaos in the Intros and the worst one being Chun-Li who became an arrest them all idiotic lesbian(But SNK of old treated Capcom characters respectfully in SVC MOTM). In CVS2 every single character had 100 quotes giving all of the pairings, random encounters and so on.

The Illuminati

08-26-2005, 05:45 PM

What the hell was Vega's scheme in street fighter zero 3 I mean he kidnapps ryu pumps him full of psycho power and for what his ending shows he sticks him in the psycho drive and blows up a city with his satelite,Rose said she sensed doomsday approaching so was vega gonna destroy the world with psycho power or what?

TAS

08-26-2005, 05:45 PM

They do in the Japanenese version in the form of character to character winner to looser quotes, they all have one quote for each of the characters. They are never translated here with the exception of SF3 Second Impact. CVS2 quotes >>>>>>>>>>>> SVC Dialogs. Capcom actually respected SNK characters while SNK crapped all over Capcom characters in SVC Chaos in the Intros and the worst one being Chun-Li who became an arrest them all idiotic lesbian(But SNK of old treated Capcom characters respectfully in SVC MOTM). In CVS2 every single character had 100 quotes giving all of the pairings, random encounters and so on.

I like how it was in Project Justice and in the SFA games though were its an actual conversation though, cause you can't get as much from the quotes or they don't go on as long.

What the hell was Vega's scheme in street fighter zero 3 I mean he kidnapps ryu pumps him full of psycho power and for what his ending shows he sticks him in the psycho drive and blows up a city with his satelite,Rose said she sensed doomsday approaching so was vega gonna destroy the world with psycho power or what?

I don't even know if he had a plan in SFA3, it was more like every character in SFA3 was looking for him, well not even every character, only a few or half of them were. I mean really did characters like R.Mika, Karin, Zangeif, E.Honda, Fei Long, Blanka, Dan, etc, need to fight Bison? Couldn't they have given them all their own bosses like they did with SFA2? It just seemed very lazy of them, it was like "fuck it, lets just make Bison everybody's boss" which probaly wouldn't have been so bad had it not already been done twice before (SF2, SFEX)

Sano

08-26-2005, 05:59 PM

I like how it was in Project Justice and in the SFA games though were its an actual conversation though, cause you can't get as much from the quotes or they don't go on as long.

I dunno, to me RS needs it more since everyone more or less has a common goal, SFZ is random people fulfilling their own agendas. SVC Chaos needed it because they made the game not a tournament so they needed scenarios why these people should fight if they ran into each other(in some scenarios they where reaching but eh. Hong Kong comic made it a tournament anyway). Tech Romancer had the dialogs but eveyone had their own story, it takes some crafty neeedle work at best to 'fit' every story in TR together because some characters have 100% different roles/agendas in someone else's story (but everything seems like it fits in a way) but SFZ2, matter of fact the entire SFZ series is different. I honestly can not imagine what some of these characters would say to each other in an actual conversation like say, Chun-Li and Adon for example and I don't think most of the characters would actually have a conversation with even five people at best. There's the mid boss dialogs and the boss dialogs, seems like enough to me for SFZ2's scenario, it's just too many random people doing their own thing unlike RS where everyone is after Hyo. The quotes indicate what they would say to each other if they did fight at best, but as you know in actuality every character doesn't fight every character storyline wise.

Golden Dragon

08-26-2005, 06:01 PM

Guile needed a reason to be in the game...the problem was, they needed Charlie to be there, too (they were having a game with everyone in it, after all). How would YOU reconcile this? The Charlie/Guile situation CAN lead into SF2...assuming Capcom ditched that whole thing about Charlie dying because his plane was shot down, because that never happens in any of the games. Or, it could not happen- Charlie could die a hero's death in Guile's ending, and you have somewhat of a different character left with Guile. Bison may or may not come back, but I don't think Capcom would make Bison weaker in SF2 anyway.

I don't remember anything about Charlie dying after his plane was shot down. Both the SF2 Turbo and SFA2 instruction booklets say that Guile and Charlie were detained while on a mission in Thailand, but they eventually escaped imprisonment. The only difference is that the SF2 Turbo instruction booklet says that Charlie died some time after escaping the jungle incarceration, while the SFA2 Instruction booklet says that he instead set out to find the person behind the disturbances in Thailand after escaping the prison. I'm assuming SFA2's take on the event is a ret-con. I any case, I've only heard of this event from Capcom USA sources and from what I've seen, Capcom Japan sources (as well as several Japanese sources) say only that M. Bison killed Charlie and nothing more. The whole Thailand prison scenario might've been made up by Capcom USA altogether. I might have to check with someone who owns AAC in the SF storyline thread just to make sure.

Bison may or may not come back, but I don't think Capcom would make Bison weaker in SF2 anyway.
I agree and I've always wondered what official source states that M. Bison was weaker in SF2.

They don't even know each-other in SF2, AFAIK (unless that's been changed, also), so again, the two games exist independantly.
He would then use Perhaps that has been changed since the alpha series came into the picture. There's no evidence in SF2 that would prove otherwise.

Fei Long is the same...he can still quit movies and open his own school regardless of whether or not SF2 or Alpha takes place. It can happen to Alpha Fei if SF2 never happened, and it can happen to SF2 Fei if he was never around in A3. And didn't he NOT become a movie star in his SSF2 ending, or did Capcom change that? Because he wins some movie award in his A3 ending.
You make a good point. However, Fei Long's original SSF2 ending was mistranslated by Capcom USA and had him not being a movie star and declining the offer to become one while his ending in the Japanese SSF2 shows that he's a movie star who no longer wants to be one. The plot guide features what was really said in the Japanese version of his SSF2 ending. You should check it out. Also (like sano said), he dissapears from the movie world to become a legendary fighter in his Revival ending.

I assume the SSF2TR ending says something more akin to the OG Japanese version? Were other story points changed, other than Cammy and Sagat's endings? As for why they would be changed...the A3 version of things offer more resolution, so they were adapted to SF2.
In Cammy's SSF2TR ending, Bison tells Cammy that she is a clone created from his DNA. His exact words are, "Hmm, listen to me, my sweet little Cammy. You are just a copy generated fom my DNA!"

TAS

08-26-2005, 06:49 PM

I honestly can not imagine what some of these characters would say to each other in an actual conversation like say, Chun-Li and Adon for example and I don't think most of the characters would actually have a conversation with even five people at best.

Its two fold, some characters would actual conversations, like Ryu and Ken, but with something like Chun Li and Adon it be something like Chun Li: "I won't let you stand in my way!" while Adon would say something like "Those are some powerful looking legs you've got there." ie with some characters it just be one liners, some of which would probaly end up getting used more then once, stuff like "I won't let you stand in my way!" or "This should be intersting." type stuff.

There's the mid boss dialogs and the boss dialogs, seems like enough to me for SFZ2's scenario, it's just too many random people doing their own thing unlike RS where everyone is after Hyo. The quotes indicate what they would say to each other if they did fight at best, but as you know in actuality every character doesn't fight every character storyline wise.

The Illuminati

08-26-2005, 06:55 PM

Does anyone have the japanese translations for the win quotes in 3s?

Daemos

08-27-2005, 02:56 AM

@TAS

I agree with you. There was no need in SFA3 to have every character fight Bison, there should've been a unique boss for many of the characters who really have NO relations to Bison. And since SFA3 is NOT a tournament, it makes no sense that everyone fights him. I'll take comfort in the fact that most of the endings didn't happen thankfully.

@The Illuminati

What the hell was Vega's scheme in street fighter zero 3 I mean he kidnapps ryu pumps him full of psycho power and for what his ending shows he sticks him in the psycho drive and blows up a city with his satelite,Rose said she sensed doomsday approaching so was vega gonna destroy the world with psycho power or what?

Bison's scheme was to find a body strong enough to hold Psycho Power in before his body explodes from a psycho power overload. When he places Ryu in the Psycho Drive, everything is stable again and he proceeds with his cliche plan of world domination. By destroying a major world city, he shows that he means business. Bison also told Ryu that he wants to secure a place in history for himself, to be remembered/honored as the greatest warrior of all time.

As for those translations, did you check Gamefaqs.com?

Sano

08-27-2005, 07:16 AM

Does anyone have the japanese translations for the win quotes in 3s?

There was no seperate All About Capcom Book for SF3 Third Strike(only for SF3NG), SF3TS it just got covered in the big All About Capcom book so that doesn't have them. Someone would need to check out a Japanese SF3TS Strategy Guide to check it out.

CPS_3

08-29-2005, 06:52 AM

AM Show: Neues Prügelspiel von Capcom

29.08.05 - Capcom gibt bekannt, dass auf der AM Show (01.09.05 - 03.09.05) in Japan ein neues Prügelspiel vorgestellt wird.

AM Show: New fighting game from Capcom

19.08.05 - Capcom announced that they will show a new Fighting game at the AM Show (01.09.05 - 03.09.05) in Japan.

Source: www.Gamefront.de

Heart beat speeding up...

Daemos

08-29-2005, 06:54 AM

Please god! LET THIS BE TRUE! Let this be true... PLEASE!!!

Hol Horse

08-29-2005, 07:21 AM

gamefront, uh? well they have been pretty reliable usually...

chances for SFIV increasing from 0.01 % to.. uhhmmmh... 6%

CPS_3

08-29-2005, 07:23 AM

gamefront, uh? well they have been pretty reliable usually...

chances for SFIV increasing from 0.01 % to.. uhhmmmh... 6%

My sentiments exactly(that's why I posted it in it's own thread) it's probably something like Final Fight Street Wise the Arcade game >:/

Ultima

08-29-2005, 08:08 AM

Daemos:

> There was no need in SFA3 to have every character fight Bison, there should've been a unique boss for many of the characters who really have NO relations to Bison. And since SFA3 is NOT a tournament, it makes no sense that everyone fights him.

Here's the thing: SFA3 is a game, first and foremost. With regards to the game format, Capcom decided to make it more interesting for the player to give everyone a real last boss to fight (Final Vega/Shin M.Bison), a character who was not playable in the arcade under any means. Thus, Capcom hedged it so that every character would have to fight this character, whether they had a reason to or not. They wrapped much of the story of SFA3 around the gameplay, which is perfectly fine. After all, 3rd Strike does the exact same thing, and I don't hear any of you folks whining about that. And 3rd Strike doesn't even have half the story content of SFA3.

From a gameplay standpoint, I prefer this routine. While having your own last boss is neat, it's also boring to fight. SFA3 and 3S made you feel like you had to earn your ending, especially since SFA3 arcade didn't allow you to continue against the last boss.

I should also point out that Second Impact IS a tournament, yet also follows SFA2's style of having a different last boss for every character. Furthermore, everyone fought M.Bison in SFA1 as well, which was the same as SFA2. So really, the gimmick of SFA2 and 2I is an anomaly. It could be useful for a home version of the game, but remember that these are arcade games we're talking about, first andf foremost, which takes precedence before any storyline scrubbery.

TAS:

Have you actually seen most of the dialogue in SvC? It's absolutely banal tripe. The mid-boss dialogues in SFA2/SFA3 are far more interesting and relevent. I would rather have two meaningful dialogues and/or a bunch of pertinent one line win quotes than SvC's character "dialogues" any day.

re: rumour

Well, the posibility of them showing something has gone up. Probability of it being SF4, and/or something that we're likely to care about, and/or something that is likely to be good is still virtually nil. But I wouldn't mind if I'm wrong.

Adolf Hitler

08-29-2005, 10:59 AM

I translate understand this so you what I say, because streets fighters 4 is a large business.

Fist off, you Diskjockey should not miteinschließen because its type is, what is incorrect with humanity. It gives only an use for the rap music dirt, that of its mouth, and that produces, is in the fields.

I would like to see a minigame where you make your opponent March, until they die of exaustion.

They should make horizon the head character instead of. It is is true an arischer value proud of while ryu is only a Jew.

10x

08-29-2005, 11:47 AM

Fist off, you Diskjockey :bgrin: :rofl:

blue's clues

08-29-2005, 11:56 AM

AM Show: New fighting game from Capcom

19.08.05 - Capcom announced that they will show a new Fighting game at the AM Show (01.09.05 - 03.09.05) in Japan.

Source: www.Gamefront.de

Heart beat speeding up...

Game on list is Street Fighter 4.

Check gamespot.com

CPS_3

08-29-2005, 12:05 PM

Game on list is Street Fighter 4.

Check gamespot.com

Care to give a direct link? All I could find is an article saying that it might be sf4

Adolf Hitler

08-29-2005, 12:33 PM

Taht ist, weil Sie Sie ungebildet schrubbt nicht lesen können! Ich kann Sie liek ein Buch im gameplay, und Ihnen sogar kann lesen einen Absatz lesen!

CPS_3

08-29-2005, 12:37 PM

Schön das du lesen kannst aber das Schreiben fällt dir anscheinend doch noch sehr schwer. :lol:

blue's clues

08-29-2005, 12:49 PM

Care to give a direct link? All I could find is an article saying that it might be sf4

Yeah, it is just speculation.

Apparently the leaked "unoffical" list has SF4 for capcom. We'll find out soon enough, won't we?

BigMex

08-29-2005, 01:03 PM

"Rumors on the Internets" - George W. Bush

It would be great to see a (good) Street Fighter IV game. But do you get the feeling if the game isn't a port of Darkstalkers or a SF Collection for the Xbox 360, then it will most likely be Final Fight Revenge like CPS_3 said.

Worst possible scenario it is SF IV, on a terribly underpowered 3D engine with horrible character models and only Ken and Ryu as returning characters... bring back some of the characters designed for Capcom Fighting All Stars... yes, another winna!

TAS, doesn't Capcom USA own the rights to the SF game now?

Hmm...

Mr-Megalo

08-29-2005, 01:39 PM

am I the only person who hopes that it these rumours of SF4 being on Atomiswave are false ? ?

dont get me wrong, i'd love to see a new Street Fighter, but on the Atomiswave hardware ? ? ? no thanks ! ! !
I have had a couple of the Atomiswave games, and I actually own NGBC, and as good as NGBC is, I can still point out faults in the A/Wave hardware (mainly loading times . . . yes loading times on cartridge based games) it really is best suited to Neo Geo KOF style games and NOT the uber sexiness that is Capcom/Street Fighter. the only thing I can say in defense of the A/Wave is NGBC fuckin rox and Hokuto No Ken looks fabulous ! but so far everything else on Atomiswave (with the exception of GGX 1.5) has been . . . well in my opinion its been dissapointing

to me it would make more sense to release a new SF game on Naomi 2 hardware which is
1\ superior to Atomiswave (even tho they are both loosely based on the same system specs - Naomi has lots more memory to play with)
2\ Cheaper to mass produce a batch of GD roms and utilise the power of the Naomi system and load everything into system memory instead of accessing from the eeproms in an A/Wave cartridge
3\uses a CPS kick loom for 6 button layouts, something which is lacking in the case of Atomiswave which is only 5 button.

roll on the end of the week so we can find out for sure.

Projectjustice

08-29-2005, 01:58 PM

AlphaCrush

08-29-2005, 02:45 PM

I think its going to be the 4th version on the sf3 series. Something like SF3 : Fourth Blow

I have this book...

http://www.estarland.com/product20523.html

and in it, there is an interview with the creators of street fighter from a few years ago. They discuss the possibility of creating a new SF for the anniversary.

Hol Horse

08-29-2005, 02:48 PM

I think its going to be the 4th version on the sf3 series. Something like SF3 : Fourth Blow

as much as I love sf3, I'd rather have something new (and good of course).

Still, seeing how things are looking for now, it would be the second best thing to happen after SF4.
Highly unlikely imho.

EVERDRED

08-29-2005, 03:26 PM

make it a sf3 collection series letting u use all 3 installments of characters from new generation, 2nd impact and 3rd strike. i still see folks playing 2nd impact i wanna see what was good about that game and see how 3rd strike measures against it.

but if they did it i hope they dont change a single thing about each version and keep every little broken thing that was found in all 3.

Mr Mort

08-29-2005, 03:31 PM

Nope you're not alone. I hope Capcom decides not to use Atomicwave. Its out dated hardware. I personally feel they are just going to be using Atomicwave to show video clips of the game. It wont be in playable form. Personally I feel Capcom should use Xbox360/PS3 hardware. This would give them the ability to create SF4 in 720p and achieve movie quality 2D graphics and animation.

Agreed. If they are indeed making SF4, it needs to be more visually impressive than any other 2D fighter before it. That means high res, 60fps, and ridiculous animation not only on the characters, but the backgrounds as well. Capcom really needs to get back on the horse and prove to everyone that they still are/can be THE authority in 2D fighters. Their last few 2D fighters, especially on consoles look very pixelated and jagged, and have been in low-res. Their Saturn 2D fighters looked sharper and animated better than their current-gen console games. There's no exuse for that.

I may be in the minority, but I still have some faith/hope that Capcom will do this right and give us a 2D fighter that will make us take notice.

TAS

08-29-2005, 03:37 PM

Have you actually seen most of the dialogue in SvC? It's absolutely banal tripe. The mid-boss dialogues in SFA2/SFA3 are far more interesting and relevent. I would rather have two meaningful dialogues and/or a bunch of pertinent one line win quotes than SvC's character "dialogues" any day.

I already stated that what I meant by that is every character would say something to one another, like most characters would only say one liners to one another, ie "I won't let you sstand in my way" while others that know one another or have something in common might say a bit more.

I think its going to be the 4th version on the sf3 series. Something like SF3 : Fourth Blow

Capcom said back in like 2001 I think it was that they weren't ever goint to do SFA4, CvS3, MvC3, or another version of SF3, so given that, I seriously doubt that, don't expect this game to be anyone of those.

TAS, doesn't Capcom USA own the rights to the SF game now?

Yeah, but that dosn't mean the next SF game will be developed by them, although if they did do one I can't help but thinking of the last two Capcom of Japan games they made their versions of, ie Final Fight: Revenge and Final Fight: Streetwise.

Capcom of America did actually make a good game (or two) once, refering to Maximo. I mean why are they even making a new FF game when the only thing they've been successful with, or the only thing new that anyone wants to them do is a 3rd Maximo game.

I also liked the fact that despite that Maximo was based off CoJ's Ghouls N Ghosts, the dev team didn't call it something like GNG: Maximo's Awakening or something like that, rather instead called it Maximo recognizing it as a diffrient game or start of a new series, which is what they should've done with this FF gmae, they shoulda just called it Streetwise, instead of trying to pass it off as FF.

Valgar

08-29-2005, 03:43 PM

720p? Do you not want this in the Arcades? It costs so much to draw all these frames, I don't think you guys understand what you ask for sometimes.

Projectjustice

08-29-2005, 03:49 PM

Agreed. If they are indeed making SF4, it needs to be more visually impressive than any other 2D fighter before it. That means high res, 60fps, and ridiculous animation not only on the characters, but the backgrounds as well. Capcom really needs to get back on the horse and prove to everyone that they still are/can be THE authority in 2D fighters. Their last few 2D fighters, especially on consoles look very pixelated and jagged, and have been in low-res. Their Saturn 2D fighters looked sharper and animated better than their current-gen console games. There's no exuse for that.

I may be in the minority, but I still have some faith/hope that Capcom will do this right and give us a 2D fighter that will make us take notice.

If Capcom wants to achieve 2D levels of graphics that rival movies they cant use Atomicwave. The backgrounds need to be as animated as the main characters on screen. They need to make the background more interactive and the characters on screen more emotional. I have faith in Capcom too they are too worried about casuals. They need to create SF4 for us, the people that do support them. That actually learn how to play it instead of inserting a quarter in the arcard machines and slap the buttons. The ones that go to tourneys, that eat sleep and shit SF everyday trying to become a better fighter. I know Capcom employees visit this site. We are the ones that keep this style of gaming alive. Dont turn your back on us now.

TrueSephiroth

08-29-2005, 04:04 PM

If Capcom wants to achieve 2D levels of graphics that rival movies they cant use Atomicwave. The backgrounds need to be as animated as the main characters on screen. They need to make the background more interactive and the characters on screen more emotional. I have faith in Capcom too they are too worried about casuals. They need to create SF4 for us, the people that do support them. That actually learn how to play it instead of inserting a quarter in the arcard machines and slap the buttons. The ones that go to tourneys, that eat sleep and shit SF everyday trying to become a better fighter. I know Capcom employees visit this site. We are the ones that keep this style of gaming alive. Dont turn your back on us now.

I agree with you, my only problem is, business wise, people think too "casual" which ultimately puts a gimp on things. However, seeing as "if" there might be a Street Fighter 4 in the works, then from my thoughts, just the title SF4 alone will sell a crap load, because let's be honest, alot of us have been waiting for it to happen.

However, I agree that it has to be no less than almost perfect, nothing can be perfect, but it can be damn near it, which is what I want to see from SF4. Capcom should know that many of us are devoted, and do want to see a SF4 game out, however we want it to be an excellent game, not just a same sprite slapped over a new stage and what not. If SF4 is to come out, it has to be with complete devotion "One who loves his or her's own creation, those are the ones that come out to be the most beautiful." That's how imo SF4 should be made...sorry to be kind of "emo" in the end.

TAS

08-29-2005, 04:11 PM

720p? Do you not want this in the Arcades? It costs so much to draw all these frames, I don't think you guys understand what you ask for sometimes.

Its true that as much as people are so hardcore here about 2D, and dont want 3D, they tend not to think about all the work that has to go into a 2D game, or the fact that it won't sell well, or at least won't make back anwhere near its production cost. SF3 had the best 2D animation of any game for its time, and still does, but it never made more then its production cost, which was the major reason Capcom gave up on doing all new 2D fighters from scratch.

The Illuminati

08-29-2005, 04:12 PM

If capcom makes sf4 they need to make profiles for the characters,cause 3s strike didn't tell you anything but there story's and left many unanswerd questions,I still don't know what the hell is happening when gill performs the ascension.

Ryu Kazama

08-30-2005, 08:16 AM

Projectjustice

08-30-2005, 11:44 AM

hold dat

08-30-2005, 11:53 AM

Well if SF4 is going to be the last SF every made Capcom needs to dump a lot of money in advertising it properly. They really need to make SF4 something special, something that ends it all and we can play for years to come. Im really excited over the potential of it all, but Atomicwave does worry me.

u think its gonna be the last one? you know with online play and guys like us spreading the word, tournaments like Evo etc, i think it will grow. just needs more advertising...i think ln the future fighting game junkies like us will get their due....WE just wont get any credit.

Capcom better do me right....we should start a campaign, write them letters or something. dammit i just want to know if ken can beat ryu. is that too much?

Projectjustice

08-30-2005, 12:39 PM

u think its gonna be the last one? you know with online play and guys like us spreading the word, tournaments like Evo etc, i think it will grow. just needs more advertising...i think ln the future fighting game junkies like us will get their due....WE just wont get any credit.

Capcom better do me right....we should start a campaign, write them letters or something. dammit i just want to know if ken can beat ryu. is that too much?

I hope it isnt the last SF but the way Capcom has been acting these last few years I wouldnt cross it off. I just want to get SF4 and feel like this is exactly what I want. You know what I mean? Hopefully I wont be let down.

I heard you made it to PhilipKao casuals 3s get together this past saturday. I wanted to make it but I had to work. Hopefully next time. Im planning to throw one myself (Jersey City) soon. I have 60 inch HDTV, Hugo is a foot tall on that bitch. Ill make sure you get an invite. :tup:

WhiteKong

08-30-2005, 12:50 PM

I hope it isnt the last SF but the way Capcom has been acting these last few years I wouldnt cross it off. I just want to get SF4 and feel like this is exactly what I want. You know what I mean? Hopefully I wont be let down.

I heard you made it to PhilipKao casuals 3s get together this past saturday. I wanted to make it but I had to work. Hopefully next time. Im planning to throw one myself (Jersey City) soon. I have 60 inch HDTV, Hugo is a foot tall on that bitch. Ill make sure you get an invite. :tup:

dude ill be there is you have one.. chilltown represent.

Projectjustice

08-30-2005, 12:58 PM

dude ill be there is you have one.. chilltown represent.

I am, it just a matter of time. Im in the process to get a capture card for my pC. I want ton record all the matches and post them on here. Look at the SFAC online forum for dates soon.

hold dat

08-30-2005, 01:07 PM

I hope it isnt the last SF but the way Capcom has been acting these last few years I wouldnt cross it off. I just want to get SF4 and feel like this is exactly what I want. You know what I mean? Hopefully I wont be let down.

I heard you made it to PhilipKao casuals 3s get together this past saturday. I wanted to make it but I had to work. Hopefully next time. Im planning to throw one myself (Jersey City) soon. I have 60 inch HDTV, Hugo is a foot tall on that bitch. Ill make sure you get an invite. :tup:

ya i was there...and when you're having you're event i'll be there. you know when they make SF4 we are gonna lose our jobs right? lol lets hope capcom doesn't dissappoint

a foot tall hugo? that's fire!!! :tup:

Cryptlord

08-30-2005, 05:23 PM

Kataklysmic

08-30-2005, 09:51 PM

Its true that as much as people are so hardcore here about 2D, and dont want 3D, they tend not to think about all the work that has to go into a 2D game, or the fact that it won't sell well, or at least won't make back anwhere near its production cost. SF3 had the best 2D animation of any game for its time, and still does, but it never made more then its production cost, which was the major reason Capcom gave up on doing all new 2D fighters from scratch.

I do agree that most 2D enthusiasts overlook those things, but again, graphics isn't the only thing to take into account here. What was it about SF3 that really turned people off? The fact it was 2D, or the fact that the gameplay felt bland and even discouraging to casual players (especially with Ryu and Ken being only returning characters)?

Golden Dragon

08-30-2005, 09:57 PM

I do agree that most 2D enthusiasts overlook those things, but again, graphics isn't the only thing to take into account here. What was it about SF3 that really turned people off? The fact it was 2D, or the fact that the gameplay felt bland and even discouraging to casual players (especially with Ryu and Ken being only returning characters)?
I concur!

IvanDashSmith

08-30-2005, 09:57 PM

I don't know if SFIV would sell well. I mean, so many people didn't even know about SFIII until a few months ago.

However, saying that, Capcom really need to do some serious advertising for this. Their games aren't advertised enough I feel. They need to spread it across more areas now. Heck, have a 20 second clip at the movies.

Yes, it costs money to advertise, but I'm sure it'll be worth it.

I think one of the biggest reasons no one knew about SF3 was because arcades were on the decline in the mid to late nineties, and all the money was coming in with console game sales from all the people who were really never into arcade games before discovering how cool it is to play games.

If capcom wants to do well with this game they need to make it with home consoles in mind, regardless of if it's successful in arcades or not. Like many have already said, arcades would be a great testing ground and the company would at least break even, but then put that on home consoles afterward and you will make your money back easily. The biggest mistake would be for the game to do poor to mediocre in arcades and not release it for consoles as a result.

Even with tons of advertising the game is almost doomed to fail in the arcades, which is a shame, because arcades aren't what they were when they invented this form of media.

Edit:
I do agree that most 2D enthusiasts overlook those things, but again, graphics isn't the only thing to take into account here. What was it about SF3 that really turned people off? The fact it was 2D, or the fact that the gameplay felt bland and even discouraging to casual players (especially with Ryu and Ken being only returning characters)?

I don't want to completely disagree, but wouldn't it make more sense that SF3 was discouraging to fans because it only brought ken and ryu, and casual gamers wouldn't know otherwise?

I personally dont think it was the 2d thing. Tekken and VF are both 3d, but Tekken is incredibly succuessful compared to VF and SF3, but I think the biggest part of that was being in bed with PSX and releasing many versions of the game over consecutive years for both arcade and console.

Nokato

08-30-2005, 10:06 PM

If its not 2-D, the game fails. Period. GGPO. People can post 9 million paragraphs if they want to...if SF4 is 3-D the game is trash.

cygnus

08-30-2005, 10:14 PM

It's a combination of things, it always is. I mean there isn't a magical key to a game being popular/unpopular. In SF3's case, first it's 2D and LOOKS 2D, which is archaic in many people's eyes. Also, at first glance most of the new characters are very lame (Q, Twelve, Urien, Dudley YES DUDLEY, Necro, Elena, Hugo, Oro, Remy) and the cool ones are generic (Yun, Yang, Makoto, Sean, Alex, returning characters). The only new original character I think most gamers would think of as cool is Ibuki, and she is still pretty generic (female ninja).

Now don't jump all over