S-Athena

[Hellion]

My N-Athena was pretty solid, but she was overwhelmed recently at this tourney in New Park Mall by Dr. B.
She held her own though and finished off his Cammy and took half the life from his second character... Not sure if it was Blanka or Sagat.
I am sad to say I dumped her, and found a new love: S-Athena

He recommended that I pick her up and try her out, as I use both her and Vega, S-Groove would benefit both characters more.

So far, the most I can figure to do with her is just work on getting her meter charged to max so I can just follow up my regular routines, jab psycho ball followed by just about whatever Athena has- but bounce into either short or forward phoenix arrow, butt bounce into super phoenix arrows, but bounce into SCB, or butt bounce into her dragon punch to get away from some late attack. Also a jab psycho ball comboes with jumping roundhouse and c.fp for 3 hits if they're foolish... But most times they won't be. Sometimes I just run in under cover of her psycho balland c.fp if they underestimate her too much after.
All I've noticed was I traded her good roll in for increased damage, and a good dodge attack that allows for more free time to charge, although throwing a jab psycho ball and charging a bit works too.

Her desperation mode is a little risky for me at present... But her super phoenix arrows are a great way to end a match through chip... Not too experienced with infinite level 1 SCB's yet though.

Basically, still a noob with her in S, but I think now this might just be her strongest groove, just because she is good at keep-away, and charging to max gives her that increased power boost, and her infinite level 1's and her added dodge attacks somewhat compensate for the loss of the roll..
She still has small jump and run.

Anyone have any ideas I should try to add to this? Like maybe the SCB's?

[Hellion]

Well, something I figured on my own with SCB's, they're damn good as infinite level 1's.
Dunno if that's what Dr. B meant, but...
Being able to zone ok with Athena, a jab psycho ball followed by a level 1 SCB cancelled into its projectile repeated over and over again until the opponent is just within range to be chipped to death by the phoenix arrow super is a neat little trick. To me, in theory, the SCB itself should prevent jump-ins after a jab psycho ball, and the projectile can catch just about anyone in the air who doesn't jump that close. Even if they roll past the psycho ball, with proper timing, the SCB projectile would catch them on recovery.
It seems safe enough, although I know there are some holes in it... I'd imagine a lvl3 Shine Knuckle or something to that effect, or even just characters like Vega or Iori.

[RagingStormX]

Vs P/K

Get them into the corner and do continuous SCB over and over and over, the can only uppercut/lvl3 to hit you, if they have neither they are fucked.

[jae hoon]

S Groove Athena IMO is the best Athena if applied properly. The problem is most people dont apply it properly. There are basically two different variations or ways of doing the SCB's.

There is the most common way and the way I play her if I play S. Basically its to sit in the corner and do the infamous jab fireball SCB. This in essence can be effective against unexperienced people and people who play non roll grooves. The problem comes when playing against roll grooves. The thing is the roll all but nullifies that kind of attack when all they have to do is wait on you to do a SCB and roll through it no problem. Basically if you just sit in a corner and just do what is the basic Athena S Groove your letting the C/N/A groove people have an opening without realizing it. I know your going to say you just time your SCB's but for one its easier said then done against a roll and two your opponent will already be aware of that in the first place.

Then there is the second way of preforming the SCB's which is the much harder but more effective way and that is on the run. In essence not staying in one spot. Constantly running in and out being able to effectively use dodge and never missing the SCB is critical if you use this type of Athena. It is IMO the most dangerous way to play her if you know how. The problem here is its usually rather difficult to do and you usually leave yourself open for attack unexpectidly. You really have to pay attention to what you are doing or you will just end up fucking yourself over.

[Hellion]

Hey Jae Hoon,

I am not used to doing point blank level 1's like the SCB up close... I think I understand what you mean though about rushing in and mixing it up and all, but to use the lvl1 SCB properly that's timing right?
I mean, I've been knocked out of it so many times up close with pokes during the start up every time I play opponents that I don't really get the chance to learn much...
Something about the properties of the super's frame data and the properties of a level 1 that I don't take into account simply because I don't know them...

I think I'm too used to her level 3 version's "Perfection"
Got any tips on this?

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Hellion
Hey Jae Hoon,

I am not used to doing point blank level 1's like the SCB up close... I think I understand what you mean though about rushing in and mixing it up and all, but to use the lvl1 SCB properly that's timing right?
I mean, I've been knocked out of it so many times up close with pokes during the start up every time I play opponents that I don't really get the chance to learn much...
Something about the properties of the super's frame data and the properties of a level 1 that I don't take into account simply because I don't know them...

I think I'm too used to her level 3 version's "Perfection"
Got any tips on this?

The lvl1 SCB does have good priority for a lvl 1 but you can still get knocked out of it if done incorrectly. You just cant miss with it and remember if you hold down all three kicks you can super cancel the SCB. It just takes practice and know how ie, do a jab fireball then a scb from full screen just to get there guard up. Then do another jab fireball and do acouple short teleports or run aways and do another scb if they jump or roll. Thats just a basic example of what you can do, remember it is a lvl1 so it isnt invisible but if applied correctly can be quite dangerous. Its really a zoning and trapping kind of ballgame you have to do to use the better of the two S Groove Athenas. You cant always just rush in and do a SCB thats to predicatble and they will expect that, thats why you do what I said a minute ago then maybe jump or hop backwards and throw another fireball followed by another SCB and then do something like fireball long teleport (timing is critical for this) then throw. If done correctly you they will have either blocked the fireball and your teleport would have recovered long enough for you to either throw or df or do a SCB up close. If they jump or roll or rc your safe anyway. There isnt just one example of how to do it its just not being predictable with your options.

[Hellion]

Originally posted by jae hoon


throw another fireball followed by another SCB and then do something like fireball long teleport (timing is critical for this) then throw.

Hey I did that once:) It was more of an accident than anything though, I thought it was all but impossible from playing KOF.
I think I understand though.
Basically just keep her game on while on the move... Though that will take some getting used to for me. Would you recommend charge-baiting into lvl1 SCBs?

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Hellion


Hey I did that once:) It was more of an accident than anything though, I thought it was all but impossible from playing KOF.
I think I understand though.
Basically just keep her game on while on the move... Though that will take some getting used to for me. Would you recommend charge-baiting into lvl1 SCBs?

Its kinda risky since even if you trade with a charge move your life is so low they automatically have the advantage most of the time, remember its still a lvl1 so it doesnt have great priority. What I would recommend is to charge bait them but dont SCB until after they do there charge move, unless that was what you were refering to anyway.

[Hellion]

What I meant by charge-baiting was simply tapping the charge buttons rappidly so as to not gain any meter.
It's more of a mind-game thing than anything.

Do you consider the level 1 "Phoenix Arrows" safe?
I rarely do that, but then I do when I'm sure it'll hit. I prefer level 3s for that one too, but either does ok chip I think. To get someone who's about to die generally or who whiff something with a lot of lag.
Sometimes I tiger knee that up close when someone's going for a sweeping move, it's kinda neat and it results in a knockdown anyway.

I just hate it when you miss, its easy to punish her.

[Fei-Leung]

Great stuff goin here guys,

i'm new to Athena, but since i love Sgroove, i think she's a good one for me to be using. The problem i have is, Athena doesn't have any good "jump in" combos. the 2 i use the most would be jumpkick > specialgrab > whatever, or jumpkick > d.jp > d.fp.

other then that, i don't know what to do with a clean jump in...

also i want to know if i got this right...
a) her best anti-air is s.mp right?
b) best poke is d.fp?
c) guardbreak combo is jumpkick > d.sk X3 > d.fp ?

anyhelp would be great!
:confused:

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Fei-Leung
Great stuff goin here guys,

i'm new to Athena, but since i love Sgroove, i think she's a good one for me to be using. The problem i have is, Athena doesn't have any good "jump in" combos. the 2 i use the most would be jumpkick > specialgrab > whatever, or jumpkick > d.jp > d.fp.

other then that, i don't know what to do with a clean jump in...

also i want to know if i got this right...
a) her best anti-air is s.mp right?
b) best poke is d.fp?
c) guardbreak combo is jumpkick > d.sk X3 > d.fp ?

anyhelp would be great!
:confused:

To Hellion first, phoenix arrow is useless in almost everything but K Groove, dont use it. It has no priority and has bad recovery time. Anyone who knows what there doing gets a free hit just for blocking the damn thing.

As far Fei Athena does have good jumpins but she isnt a combo character thats what you have to realize. Sure she has her combos but there arent that many. Her air game is good though, j roundhouse has decent priority and you can link a c fierce afterward. Her butt bounce is god like especially on the short jump and can lead to some tricks if you know how. Ie butt bounce, short phoenix arrow, SCB. Her jumping fierce is one of her better AA and she also has an airthrow when you press foward and fp in the air. Her jumping short can actually be used for a crossup if you time it correctly, I used to think it was useless but you just have to learn the timing.

A. Athena doesnt really have a best AA, it usually depends on the character she faces. Sometimes its crouching fierce, sometimes its standing foward or standing strong, sometimes its jumping fierce it just depends on the situation and the character. You will only learn of trial and error.

B. Her best poke is df of course, but standing strong, and standing jab are also excellent pokes.

C. Thats one of her best ones yes

[Hellion]

Her butt bounce also crosses up right?
It's hard for me to tell sometimes, but instances where people would know to block like after a jab psycho ball and see me coming they sometimes get hit by it.

Jae Hoon,

About the SCB, I know fireballs are mostly nullified against it, but I don't know too much about weather or not super fireballs are. In all my time playing her no one's ever done that to me before, and right now I have no access to my PS2 to test this...
I do know that the SCB's projectile blows through regular fireballs, do you know if it could against super fireballs as well?
Since the projectile attack is part of the SCB, I'd like to believe that like other super attacks it can't be air-blocked... A plus against C-Groove. I never saw anyone air-block the move before.
Plus the speed catches a lot of people off guard after seeing her jab psycho balls all the time.

Oh, I'm sure you know about being able to buffer specials and supers from dodge-attacks (I think only the knockdown one)... Did know also right that the poke doesn't have to come out at all, or even connect to do the special or super?

It allows you to basically do whatever after the first 18 frames of a dodge, allowing for faster recovery from the dodge. I think that is its neatest feature... I don't know the real details about it, I am not sure how this affects the start-up of the moves you do, but I'd think that after you dodge someone's attack, they still have to recover, and you have plenty of moves in Athena's arsenal that can take advantage of the situation with little startup, like her short reflect, her dragonpunch, or if you're stuck in the corner her teleport to get the hell out of there.

A lot of Athena's specials or supers don't really do alot of damage compared to many other characters, and maybe it'd be better to
just go for the knockdown dodge attack instead, but those are options for a more varied Athena.

[Fei-Leung]

thanks for the tips guys,

but i have to correct U (hellion) on one thing, you can buffer moves from a Dodge attack, but not the Knockdown attack, only the other one cause i always DogdePunch into Crackshoot or Burnknuckle with Terry.

Question, are there ANY good uses for Athena's DPuppercut? it's priority is crappy and it's got completely no reach.... only thing i can think of is to use it to delay landing from a jump (eg: dan's air kick, air cyclone kicks for Ken , Ryu.).

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Hellion
Her butt bounce also crosses up right?
It's hard for me to tell sometimes, but instances where people would know to block like after a jab psycho ball and see me coming they sometimes get hit by it.

Jae Hoon,

About the SCB, I know fireballs are mostly nullified against it, but I don't know too much about weather or not super fireballs are. In all my time playing her no one's ever done that to me before, and right now I have no access to my PS2 to test this...
I do know that the SCB's projectile blows through regular fireballs, do you know if it could against super fireballs as well?
Since the projectile attack is part of the SCB, I'd like to believe that like other super attacks it can't be air-blocked... A plus against C-Groove. I never saw anyone air-block the move before.
Plus the speed catches a lot of people off guard after seeing her jab psycho balls all the time.

Oh, I'm sure you know about being able to buffer specials and supers from dodge-attacks (I think only the knockdown one)... Did know also right that the poke doesn't have to come out at all, or even connect to do the special or super?

It allows you to basically do whatever after the first 18 frames of a dodge, allowing for faster recovery from the dodge. I think that is its neatest feature... I don't know the real details about it, I am not sure how this affects the start-up of the moves you do, but I'd think that after you dodge someone's attack, they still have to recover, and you have plenty of moves in Athena's arsenal that can take advantage of the situation with little startup, like her short reflect, her dragonpunch, or if you're stuck in the corner her teleport to get the hell out of there.

A lot of Athena's specials or supers don't really do alot of damage compared to many other characters, and maybe it'd be better to
just go for the knockdown dodge attack instead, but those are options for a more varied Athena.

Her butt bounce doesnt crossup but her foward phoenix arrow does.

As far as the SCB goes alot of Super Fireballs will go through it but you have to remember that especially after you throw a fireball and then SCB it freezes the screen for a second and makes the moves harder to do. Yes there superfireball would go through it but thats what you got dodge for.

Athenas DP can be comboed of standing strong which is a good poke to begin with. You can also use the jab verion as AA if timed correctly.

[RagingStormX]

MP uppercut has invincibility frames, beating out any jump-in.

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by RagingStormX
MP uppercut has invincibility frames, beating out any jump-in.

None of her uppercuts have that much priority trust me on that, jumps can and will beat it.

[RagingStormX]

From what Buktooth said, it can beat any jump-in when timed right, he said he was uppercutting Sagat, Bison, Chun, etc. See below.

12/26/03:

Athena's strong uppercut is actually a real anti air. The startup has upper body invulnerability, so it'll reliably anti-air most any jump in that doesn't point downwards. Characters whose jump ins can't beat Athena's strong uppercut include Sagat, Cammy, Iori, and possibly even Bison and Chun Li.

I THINK you can CC off of Athena's strong uppercut. Not quite sure though. Of course, you could just RC fierce uppercut for pretty much the same effect...

[Hellion]

A few times I managed to knockdown some people in the corner with her, and as they were waking up I'd do her dragonpunch early to catch them as they stand with the last few hits that can hit them after she takes off, and she'd bounce away safely while they were in blockstun.

While that alone may not be an advisable tactic, I found all her multi-hitting moves very effective in ending a match.

[Hellion]

I heard once that Athena is an effective counter for Cammy. To be quite honest I've fought some hard matches against Cammy but never really had any reason to fear her as much with Athena.
Of course I killed her usually with either of Athena's supers, but my life would be critical, it still isn't an easy match.

S Cammy is one lethal character, able to hold her own against whole teams.

I don't know how I beat her, I don't play many Cammy's often, and when I do it's S that gives me the most problems, probably because her dodge attacks are so good.

Can anyone give some tips on what overall gameplan you must take against S Cammy?

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by RagingStormX
From what Buktooth said, it can beat any jump-in when timed right, he said he was uppercutting Sagat, Bison, Chun, etc. See below.

12/26/03:

Athena's strong uppercut is actually a real anti air. The startup has upper body invulnerability, so it'll reliably anti-air most any jump in that doesn't point downwards. Characters whose jump ins can't beat Athena's strong uppercut include Sagat, Cammy, Iori, and possibly even Bison and Chun Li.

I THINK you can CC off of Athena's strong uppercut. Not quite sure though. Of course, you could just RC fierce uppercut for pretty much the same effect...

Ill have to check that out then, ive been playing Athena for quite awhile and used to use that but found it quite unreliable.

[Hellion]

Where I work, I play this guy who uses C Bison(2), Haoh, and Ken against my S Rock (2), Athena, Vega, often in no order.

The results were the same in all of our matches. My characters would fuck up Haoh, and Ken, but they all had problems against Bison.
There are times I owned Ken within the first 10 seconds of the match with S Athena. Haoh is just a little too predictable for me.
Athena took him too.
Bison however just has too much recovery on many of his moves, and can throw you just as soon as he does one you block.
We all know this.
It is beginning to get on my nerves. I didn't have my x-arcade anymore, and my coordination isn't good enough to use the d-pad on the PS2 as well, but I did manage to pull off the SCB tricks on him. It fucked him up often, but she'd be just too hurt and he'd get in somehow and kill her with two hits.

Vega and Rock had an easier time beating Bison, but it was actually Rock who scored the few wins I got.

Jae Hoon, can S Athena stand up to C Bison fairly well? I am beginning to think I must use the agressive style in desperation mode you mentioned. Next time I shall.
Do you mind telling how you usually fared during this matchup??

[jae hoon]

Its either 6 - 4 or 7 - 3 in favor of Athena. Bison has nothing to match her df, just be patient and dont be afraid to df alot.

[Hellion]

Originally posted by jae hoon
Its either 6 - 4 or 7 - 3 in favor of Athena. Bison has nothing to match her df, just be patient and dont be afraid to df alot.

I knew her df was good, but not so good as to score a win ratio against Bison like that... Impressive. Gonna try that next time, thx.



Found out that her lowjump Roundhouse into d.fp is good pressure.

Maybe lowjump Roundhouse into SCB is a good trick too... I'll try that next time also. Not against Bison yet, I'll try the d.fp first.

[Hellion]

I learned something interesting with her uppercut, dragonpunch or whatever its called..
After a knockdown, if you time the dragonpunch a moment before someone is able to wake up with a reversal, you have a strong chance of not being hit out of it. I noticed this a month ago, but didn't have a chance to test it 'till last night.
My brother's Iori let me get a sweep in, and I timed Athena's dragonpunch to hit while people would normally imput the commands for a reversal.
The results were favorable. He was unable to safely respond with anything other than a block.
He says her multi-hitting uppercut, one of the faster multi-hitting moves in the game like Blanka's Electricity, or Chang throwing Choi out with his special tornado move are key ways to disrupting the command imput for wakeups. He told me that's one of the reasons why the Chang trap works so well.
Now with Athena, for the most part, it's safe if blocked as well. It's nothing to write home about, but it's free chip or free hits either way, not too sure about blanka balls out of hit stun though.

[jae hoon]

Yes but why chance it when you can just throw a wakeup fireball that you know they will have to block and you will not only be safe but have enough time to put together sometype of offense or guard break. That tactic is not really that safe.

[Hellion]

Originally posted by jae hoon
That tactic is not really that safe.


Well, the idea stemmed from watching Blanka

sweep, corpse hop, RC Electricity

The eletricity effectively stops all wake up attempts, hell, RC'd or not. Programming that pattern in training mode and trying to defeat it let to that conclusion. Where most people who have an invincible dragonpunch would go for it if they saw you standing overthem waiting for the wake up, or any kind of wake-up reversal, Blanka's pattern stops it.

The same goes for Chang's trap. You catch them in a corner, and throw out Choi first, who starts spinning like a gust of wind going up, and immediately followed by the Spinning ball to complete the trap. Choi's spinning attack is a multi-hitting move, a FAST one, and this cannot be a coincidence, it does fuck up people's commands, and allows Chang to either pound them in the air and cease for sending Choi out again, or either chipping or guard crushing them to death.

While his trap works without Choi, it's much better if Choi is thrown out, because it stuffs the wake-up attempts. Hell, you can wake up and c.fp with Athena and knock Chang out of his trap and then teleport out of there, but not it Choi is coming your way. There isn't a response for a few reasons, but the primary one is the same as Blanka Electricity, your imput is jammed.

The result is you must block, and when in Blockstun even a Character as small as Athena will get pounded by the spinning ball.

With that in mind, you can take advantage of Athena's dragonpunch, simply because many don't consider it to be effective at all. It's not really abusable for anything other than this purpose, but you can bait people into it after a knockdown from anything like maybe a tigerknee'd Phoenix Arrow, or a simple sweep by walking up to them and dodging before they get up, cancelling the dodge with her kick dodge attack and immediately cancelling that into her dragonpunch.

As a lot of people would be inclined to throw you when you dodge, especially when you foolishly dodge above them when they're a corpse. Hell, even if they didn't throw, and intended to do something else, they'd get hit by it because it screws with all moves, RC'd or not.

The only exception to this appears to be supers, because I level 3 SCB'd out of Blanka's Electricity before after the sweep, hop set-up.

While her fireball is almost guaranteed chip, her recovery is too slow, and things like RC'd Blanka Balls will fuck that shit up in a heartbeat. And with the fireball comes crucial timing, because of her recovery, and hell the opponent recovers faster from the hit than Athena does if it's done too close, and she'll get punished.

You are right though that it is safer, it really depends on the character you are fighting. Stilll, this is just another thing to think about with her dragonpunch move.

For me though, this is a good reason to use it:
At the end of the match, because of the "jamming" of the dp, it's a guaranteed hit or guaranteed chip, and it does enough of either to finish a character off.

[Hellion]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hellion

sweep, corpse hop, RC Electricity
[QUOTE]

Of course, this isn't invincible either if you know how to get out of it. N Groove Iori has a nice way of stopping it, but it requires at least one stock.

I am still working on one for S Athena, as so far I only managed to get out with a lvl3 SCB with her in N.

[Hellion]

Heck, one of my favorite things with Athena, and why I like her so much, is her guard crush potential.