So, what is the tiering of CvS2 today?

[ABASI]

my reason for asking is because of all we have learned over the i don't know how many yrs, 2? things like roll cancels and different a groove combos have come up. so what is the tiering today. i know about sagat and blanka, but is cammy still considered that good. and how about these characters.

chunli
bison
vega
rolento
ehonda
eagle
akuma
guile

geese
yamazaki
iori
hibiki
rock
rugal
nakaru

ABASI! :cool:

[VkreW]

Vega owns cammy sagat and blanka in my opinion speed!

[Shoto Scrub]

Top tiers are in no paticular order

Sakura best in a
Bison also best in a
sagat
blanka c, k and n
C ken
cammy
vega
c chun

I would say they are about the best in the game

[ImpuLse]

Ken is really good in A-groove also....just keep pushing roundhouse and finish with df df p or near the end do hcf hard k (i think) and df df k

Blanka can be used in any groove

[BaitOutClowns]

Crouching Fierce
Roll Cancel
Activate
JD

[caliagent#3]

My tiering, in no order:

Top:
Sagat
A-Sak
A-bison
cammy
Blanka
Chun

High 2nd tier (very close to being top):
Vega
Eagle
Kyo
Ken
guile
yama

[P. Gorath]

Originally posted by Shoto Scrub
Top tiers are in no paticular order

Sakura best in a
Bison also best in a
sagat
blanka c, k and n
C ken
cammy
vega
c chun

I would say they are about the best in the game

yeah I guess thats why BAS has won the last two cvs2 EVO's...:confused:

[Napalm Kid]

Top 5

Blanka
Sagat
Kim
Yamazaki
Guile

[MechZZ]

Originally posted by Napalm Kid
Top 5

Blanka
Sagat
Kim
Yamazaki
Guile

kim and yamazaki....?

where does A-Hibiki stand now a days?

[Admiral Akbar]

Originally posted by MechZZ


kim and yamazaki....?

where does A-Hibiki stand now a days?

Kim and yama are both really good, albeit not top five. Yamas on the edge, and Kim is strongly upper-mid i'd say.

[FUH_Q_2]

Yamazaki's the fucking man. you block too much, guard crush. Attack too much, counter. You gotta be on point to fight this maniac. If you do some stupid shit like jump straight up and RH with Sagat in the corner, you deserve to eat counter, lvl 3.

[platinum_pinoy]

THE top tier is always Cammy, Sagat, Blanka, just like Storm Sentinel, Mags, and Cable are to MvC2 (although Cable is not as resourceful as top three as he used to be).

But if you were to overlook the top three, it would be a debateable issue due to a player's skill. To say that Kim and Yamazaki are top tier is hard to believe, but again, it depends on the player.

[*InVeRs3*]

The only top tier imo is A-Sakura. No real weaknesses. and no real character that can really counter her.

Everyone pretty much counters everyone in CVS2 so yeah. This isn't MVC2 where everyone sucks and 7 people are useable.

Everyone sleeps on Kim and Eagle. People should start using them.

Edit:

Kim is the fucking man especially with meter. his air qcf,qcb is just bad ass and he gets a fun mixup. You can jump in and not get anti aird unless they have a super that can anti air you of course, and now you got his air game on check, samething with his damn qcb,qcf k super. it's just bad ass as an anti air aswell. He's got good anti airs and has solid footsies.

[Skyler]

ya i agree that blanka, cammy, and sagat will always be top tier for competition anyways. other wise you got the 2 god tier characters which is Shin-akuma and Ultimate rugal who can rape those 3 with there eyez close:eek: but good thing about CVS2 is that everyone is still very good to play with unlike MVC2:mad:

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by *InVeRs3*
The only top tier imo is A-Sakura. No real weaknesses. and no real character that can really counter her.
.

That was a general consencious until they got reminded that Sagat can still kill Sak in about 2.5 seconds if he lands his combo as well. Its about an even match imo.

[ShinShotokan]

I got to say that Geese is extremely underrated.

I've never seen any good Geeseplayers that truly masters his moves.

People that play CvS2 has always their head stuck up in huge devasting combos and damageing Level 3s, but never have they even thought about the defensive capabilities of this monster character.

CvS2 isn't always about breaking someones guard or mainly offensive agressive gameplay.

The only Geeseplayers I've seen around are turtlers and don't even kow how to counter properly.
Believe me, this guy is a beast if used correctly.
Don't underestimate his defensive capabilities.

Rock Neither.

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by ShinShotokan
I got to say that Geese is extremely underrated.

I've never seen any good Geeseplayers that truly masters his moves.

People that play CvS2 has always their head stuck up in huge devasting combos and damageing Level 3s, but never have they even thought about the defensive capabilities of this monster character.

CvS2 isn't always about breaking someones guard or mainly offensive agressive gameplay.

The only Geeseplayers I've seen around are turtlers and don't even kow how to counter properly.
Believe me, this guy is a beast if used correctly.
Don't underestimate his defensive capabilities.

Rock Neither.

I agree that Geese is a beast but not Rock.

With Rock its like they couldnt decide whether he should be more like Terry or Geese so they made him alittle bit of both and really kinda fucked him up. He does have Geeses raw power or defensive capabilities or Terry's speed and insanly good roll. Not to mention Rock's rising tackle is even worse then Terrys.

[SmoothCat]

Originally posted by jae hoon


I agree that Geese is a beast but not Rock.

With Rock its like they couldnt decide whether he should be more like Terry or Geese so they made him alittle bit of both and really kinda fucked him up. He does have Geeses raw power or defensive capabilities or Terry's speed and insanly good roll. Not to mention Rock's rising tackle is even worse then Terrys.

u say that but i dought u can beat otaku's k rock:mad:

[Dnut]

Originally posted by ShinShotokan
I got to say that Geese is extremely underrated.

I've never seen any good Geeseplayers that truly masters his moves.

People that play CvS2 has always their head stuck up in huge devasting combos and damageing Level 3s, but never have they even thought about the defensive capabilities of this monster character.

CvS2 isn't always about breaking someones guard or mainly offensive agressive gameplay.

The only Geeseplayers I've seen around are turtlers and don't even kow how to counter properly.
Believe me, this guy is a beast if used correctly.
Don't underestimate his defensive capabilities.

Rock Neither.

Ummm....I really think that you should write some points to back up your statements when you're talking about how people dont know how to use Geese. For example, how the character should be used correctly? What moves stands out for Geese when it comes to defense? How would you deal with someone who has a strong ground game such as Sakura?

[Ducky]

I've always thought that Geese was best played as a rushdown type character. He deals crazy guard crush, has good combos (that Deadly Rave into Jaieken shit is too good), and has a lot of power.

[popoblo]

Originally posted by SmoothCat


u say that but i dought u can beat otaku's k rock:mad:

and i doubt you could beat chikyuu's N-kyosuke, so it's a worthless point. if someone masters a character, they're going to be extremely difficult to beat irregardless of who they use.

and there was this whole debate awhile back, and i completely agree with viscant in 2 ways- cvs2 is too difficult to rank linearly and cammy is overrated. i guess somebody has to win with C/A eagle in big tournaments to show his power because he's as good as chun li, minus the strong xx death combo. but he crushes all of chun's counter characters, so it evens out. and his C-groove level 2 to level 1 cancel and his CC do about 8000 damage, which is very strong.

[Ryumexicano]

A-groove

Sakura, Bison, Ken, Blanka, Rolento

Rest of grooves:

Sagat, Cammy, Blanka, Chun-li, Ken, Yamazaki............



Ryumexicano

[Jinrai]

Originally posted by popoblo
i guess somebody has to win with C/A eagle in big tournaments to show his powerCheck out the grand finals of the Regency Fun Center tournament hosted at Denjin Video (http://www.denjinvideo.com). Dunno if it was a "big" tournament, but Combofiend's A-Eagle did great.

[box]

Here's my list as well as how I'd rank the grooves for each character.

1) Sagat (C, K, N, A/P, S)
2) Blanka (A, C, K/N, P/S)
3) Sakura (A, C, K/N/P/S)
4) Bison (A, C/K/P/N/S)
5) Cammy (C, K/P, A/N/S)
6) Kyo (A, K/P, N/C/S)
7) Hibiki (A, K, C/P/N/S)
8) Rolento (C, A, P/K/N/S)

[Montana]

the best player in the game IORI



i love that mofo


iori 4eva


Montana!!!

[PrAiSeThEwHoRe]

1. C sagat
2. P Cammy
3. C Chun
4. A Bison
5. K Blanka
6. A Sakura

[Philth]

This thread sucks.

[epsilon_]

Ok, no one is right in this thread as far as tier listings go. And Bas didn't win EITHER of the last two cvs2 Evos, Tokido and Ino did. Tiers are pretty much like this.
#1-A-Sak EVERYTHING good, and 1 bad (low life)
#2-C-Sagat HUGE damage potential, STRONG pokes, and s.short owns about 90% of the cvs2 cast for free. Also Great lv.2 cancels.
#3-A/C/K/N Blanka can turtle like crazy in C with RC, strong, versatile customs with RC in A, Rage, Low Jump, Run and JD in K, N Low Jump, Run, RC, and most important COUNTER ROLL allowing him to escape Sak's CC.
#4-A-Bison Strongest CC's in the game, Can land his CC off pretty much ANY Mistake and make your character Cry, also good at turtling, and good dash.
#5-C-Guile- This guy is both Sagat AND Cammy's worst match up, he zones incredibly well, and has like 50000 AA Options, good lv2 cancels, and GC's like crazy.
#6-C/K/P Cammy-Pretty much the best pokes in the game, and can EASILY LINK a super off a random connected extremely high priority poke(s.hp)
#7-C-Chun Beats Cammy, but loses to alot of other people. Best Lv2 Cancels in the game, extremely high priority poke in which to hit confirm, and land that lv2 cancel (s.mp) Cons, she sucks without meter...alot.


Then the high-mid tiers like K/P Kyo, K Geese, A/K Hibiki, N Iori, N Yamazaki (Viscant thinks he's top, but I'm not sure. He did beat Ohnuki though, but I need more results) C/N/A Ken (C/N are better than A though), C Rolento, C Kim, C Rugal, P Vega

EDIT:Forgot about K Geese. Also P Vega.

[Rogue328]

I never use Geese, but I always considered him a rush down character as well, with his counter used to screw with people who tried to sneak in some quick attacks. Rock, eh, I don't see him being anywhere near as powerful as Geese can be, but then again I barely ever saw anyone use Rock.

As for me, I always preferred Cammy/Honda on N-groove. Something about the fat man running around the screen scares the opposition. Roll canceling into his Orochi Kudaki is probably one of the most demoralizing moves in the game. Too bad I don't play CvS2 anymore.:D

[MechZZ]

Geese is hotness

his counter even counters level 3 supers xD

[Ryumexicano]

C-groove Rolento? Why?


Ryumexicano

[platinum_pinoy]

Rolento is better in A-groove because his supers are garbage. His CC is devastating and can take up half your energy easy. But I don't consider him top tier.

[epsilon_]

C Rolento is better for a myriad of reasons, many of them have been previously disscussed in Buks Daily tips thread. Anyway, low level players think A Rolento is better, and high level players think C Rolento is better. C Rolento has air block, frequent alpha counters, and access to lv3 trip wire (which is good, idk where "Rolento's supers are crap" came from.). A Rolento pretty much can't land his custom except off a random activation ( which doesn't cut it in high level play. C.mk, trip wire is much more reliable. Also frequent Alpha Counters keep the pressure off because even if it is blocked, it's +10...

[Ryumexicano]

C-groove Rolento I don't know. I know he is damn annoying in any groove. I know that. I have personally played against some good S-groove ROlento, damn annoying. Where is Ryu? Mai? Yamazaki? I believe they are kind of at the top, especially Yama.



Ryumexicano

[VkreW]

vega is top tier ask why and i will answer

[caliagent#3]

C-chun is still good without meter. She just isn't as scary.

[epsilon_]

Originally posted by caliagent#3
C-chun is still good without meter. She just isn't as scary. Not really, she has a crossup, and SBK traps. Her BNB doesn't even knockdown. And SBK traps don't work on Cammy or Sak, or another Chun.

[Gimpy]

How did Ken become a top tier? I mean he's really good in A-groove but I think Ryu in any groove except A is much better than Ken.

[TekkenStar5]

a ken isnt top

c ken is high mid, rc funky kick, can do dmg without meter, has the CHEAPEAST CHEAPEST crossup in the game. can combo off lklk into lvl 2cancel.

[epsilon_]

Originally posted by TekkenStar5
a ken isnt top

c ken is high mid, rc funky kick, can do dmg without meter, has the CHEAPEAST CHEAPEST crossup in the game. can combo off lklk into lvl 2cancel. C Ken is high-mid, but not because of why you said. He has a very solid ground game with far s.hk and RC Funky Kick, very good lv 2 cancels that lead to mixups, and yeah as you said a very good crossup, air block is really good, his DP is good, slolid BNB's, and also great damage off his crossup.

[MAGUS1234]

k-rock is on the rise
p/c/a -kyo is really solid
n-hibiki also really good
k-morrigan
c-guile also really good
p/c rugal-can be devastating
a/p/c/k- balrog


all these are really good viable characters in the modern enviorment,there not overplayed so there tricks are relativly good,they all have really strong points and can counter tops.Obviosly none of these are "top" but when top stay top for a really long time everyone learns there tricks and null alot of there game.For some reason Balrog seems to me like hell get alot of play eventually,hes just really solid and after playing arts(svgl guy)balrog for awhile I think I might sub him for sagat on my p team...Maybe.

[*InVeRs3*]

Originally posted by Gimpy
How did Ken become a top tier? I mean he's really good in A-groove but I think Ryu in any groove except A is much better than Ken.

Ken became top-tier because Daigo and Choi use him. Of course, any character they use will be top tier.

[PrAiSeThEwHoRe]

Originally posted by epsilon_

#1-A-Sak EVERYTHING good, and 1 bad (low life)

wow what version of cvs2 are you playing

[Viscant]

Top tier characters in CvS2.

A-Sakura
any-Sagat
any-Blanka

Done.

Why are we even asking this question though. If you're asking this question to know who to play, then ask that. There are three real power teams in CvS2 right now. They are:

A-Blanka/Sakura/Bison
C-Ken/Guile/Sagat
K-Sagat/Cammy/another**
**You can get away with playing lots of characters in K groove and they'll turn up fine. Even Kyosuke isn't really that bad in K groove. Same with A groove really.

Stick with one of those teams and you'll be fine.

I'll say what I said the last time we talked about this kind of subject on SRK. The more time goes by, the more balanced CvS2 becomes. Many characters are usable, simply because of this main factor. The only three truly "untouchable" characters are the three I mentioned above (A-Sak, any-Sagat, any-Blanka). And almost nobody plays that team (mostly because A-Sagat is funky). So you can theoretically get away with playing a lot of characters simply because everyone plays a character that has some matchup problems.
In that way, I think that CvS2 balance is looking like MvC2 balance. There are a few core characters that are essential and then you have your filler characters that you use to counter what the other guy is doing or to make the game less boring and hideously repetitive on you.

Some stuff I have to mention on characters that lots of people pick.

--Hibiki will always be good against C groove simply because she can sit there and not that much can be done against that. C-Sagat has lots and lots of matchup problems against Hibiki.
--Vega is useful against a lot of characters for the same reason Hibiki is useful; he can sit there for extended periods of time and frustrate you. I've always maintained that Vega isn't that good because he has a LOT of counter characters and he doesn't do that much real damage anyways. Even if you lose a round to him, just sit there next round and he can't do much of anything to you. Vega would be a really good character in a 1-on-1 game, but CvS2 works against him.
--Yamazaki is the best character that nobody plays. Unfortunately he can't touch Sagat. Like...at all. Yamazaki as a character gets better at higher ratios, but because Sagat frequently shows up as a R2, nobody ever makes Yamazaki their R2. If there's a 4th character on the list, he's it, but he doesn't win the same way that A-Sak, Blanka, Sagat win. He just wears you down and wins; they dominate.
--The grooves are close to balanced. I know nobody wants to hear this, but it's pretty true. A groove is ahead, the other 5 are slightly behind but it's not that bad. You can play pretty much any groove you want, it's just that K groove and A groove you can put pretty much any character in and succeed. N groove, S groove, P groove all have very limited character selections. P groove is fine, but you have to play like Joe/Cammy/Sagat/shotos/Vega. S groove is fine, you just have to play a character with good supers and a reversal (SAGAT/CAMMY). N groove has a lot of random characters that are good in N, so you have to make a committment to playing that groove. Not surprisingly, very few people play N because it takes work. I always maintain that N SHOULD be the 2nd best groove in the game, unfortunately it requires you playing some of the hardest characters to learn in the game so nobody will really realize this.

Anyways, yeah.
I think a better way to rank this game is in teams. If anyone's interested I could do that and hopefully the other 8 people who play CvS2 could comment and we could have a good discussion that way.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[mjm]

Viscant, i'd like to see how you feel about the teams.

-mixon

[MAGUS1234]

Ya definitaly want to hear your thoughts on teams.


That aside heres my take on team ideas
for p-groove(what I play) you have to take a couple things in mind,one being that you are not that mobile, so a character with good reach and solid pokes helps alot.Automatically that puts sagat blanka and cammy as the top team,in my opinion,they can safley play a standard ground game out prioritizing and ranging characters while having good answeres to a- groove set-ups(blanka jump back for example),jump ins(parry shoryuken) and wake-up games(basically the same for all grooves but you get the parry option in obvious and desperate situations).Withg these three characters you also get the most damage from a normal parry without super,which in alot of cases is most of the match(for me I average one super a match,the end of it)like sagat and cammy b&b are really damaging and lead to knockdown,while blanka has the most powerful and long fierces in the game(just about).Alot of people say kyo is really good in P and this is for similar reasons but brings up a new team form you can choose,-characters who can benifit the most from a single parry.Kyo has the most damaging combos w/or without supers of a single parry in almost every situation,similar characters are rolento,and yamazaki(huge combos off a single parry).Personally I think the supers they have dont make that much a difference,they can all work off a parry(including blanka),they are all comboable and all can work as needed anti air(some only off parry)

[Gimpy]

Originally posted by *InVeRs3*


Ken became top-tier because Daigo and Choi use him. Of course, any character they use will be top tier.



:lol: :lol: :lol: So true. But then again they use Ryu also.;)



But I do agree with some that has Kyo placed high. I was thinking about using him instead of Terry on my Sagat/Ryu team.

[*InVeRs3*]

Kyo is overrated. Mixups my ass. Nowadays his mixups aren't just doing it for anyone. I think Kyo's bad ass, that's why I use Kyo, but saying he's top tier or top-mid is pushing it. His normals blow, well they don't blow, it's just that everyone has better normals. He has bad matchups against Sagat/Blanka/Cammy(sort of)/chunli/sakura/runaway characters/honda, it's tough to get in with him against those fools without a knockdown.

[S4v]

Kyo is under-rated. Mainly for the fact that he's hard to use for most people. He requires a higher level of footsies than the average american players possess to secure his knockdowns and set up his mix ups. At least i have parry...

[*InVeRs3*]

Originally posted by S4v
Kyo is under-rated. Mainly for the fact that he's hard to use for most people. He requires a higher level of footsies than the average american players possess to secure his knockdowns and set up his mix ups. At least i have parry...

That's the reason why I say he's overrated. I saw a list that had him with Guile, Ken and Vega, Obviously much much more easier to use than Kyo in my opinion. Top-Tier lists are usually more like who's easier to use list.

[MAGUS1234]

yes, but I assume we are not talking about "lazy" american top tiers.
I would definitaly put him in the same level with ken and guile.He can just be too unpredictable and too damaging in the rite hands.

[Shoto Scrub]

A sakura doesnt have a bad matchup in the game. I think she can be considerd the best overall character.

[jae hoon]

Ive said for awhile oustide of A Sak, Sagat, Blanka its pretty much a matter of opinion who is next. Everyone always has there different list and none of them are definet. IE

K Hibiki is fucking disgusting, I havent seen an A hibiki so I cant make judgement on it.

K Joe is just as sick although since I switched back to N hes got some nastiness back in that as well.

C Ken has been sick for awhile, just not many people bothered to pay attention.

I still find Geese and Eagle highler underrated. Especially Eagle, I just dont see why he doesnt get more play.

I still find Rock to be overrated, I just personally never saw the big deal about him.

Nak And Athena are better then you think.

Cammy is worse than you think, she is still hella good dont get me wrong but most people seem to consider her with Blanka Sagat.

The thing is all these are just based of opinion and will differ from the very next person that posts. Thats just the way CvS2 is.

[HeaT]

Originally posted by Psycho Gorath


yeah I guess thats why BAS has won the last two cvs2 EVO's...:confused:

what does that have to do with who the best characters are???

if otaku won evo with rock/hibiki/kyo, that wouldnt mean they are the best characters...

im outi

Roberth

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by HeaT


what does that have to do with who the best characters are???

if otaku won evo with rock/hibiki/kyo, that wouldnt mean they are the best characters...

im outi

Roberth

You mean to tell me Ration 4 Raiden isnt top tier :lol:

[box]

ARCADIA Magazine of Japan has released a tier list for CvS2 in their 2004 SBO pamphlet:

Top tier: Blanka, Sagat

High mid: Sakura, Bison, Cammy, Guile, Chun-Li, Geese, Rolento

Top tier groove: A
Mid tier Groove: C K N P
Low tier groove: S

[MCTek]

I won't argue too much again Arcadia's character tier, but groove tiers are relative don't you think? For instance P-groove tier is proportional to the person's parry skills/character choice. A-groove is the best all around groove now it seems, but C groove seems to do well against it. K has a good time fighting C and P in my experience, but of course dies to A.

So the chart would look more like

K > C
A > K
C > A
P = ?
S < everything

of course, I guess someone could always pick C sakura and whore RC hurriken against K groove too :/

[epsilon_]

Well the best C Teams consist of Guile as point, a user, then Sagat why? Guile is the best battery hands down, and beats several top tier, Sagat is the best Anchor, and I say random user because you could put a few people in there. Ken and Chun are the obvious choices, but there are others.

Best A Teams have Sak as point or user and Blanka as anchor. Bison is another obvious choice, but Hibiki is solid as well, although there aren't many good A Hibiki players out there.

Best P Groove teams have Cammy and Sagat. Kyo, Blanka, Vega take the 3rd spot. I think Kyo is the best in this team as a battery, but the other characters superiority is mostly preference.

Best S groove teams have Cammy. I don't know much about S Groove, but you can't go wrong with Blanka and Sagat.


Best N groove teams have usually a shoto and Sagat/Blanka as anchor. Iori, Yamazaki, Morrigan(less so...), Hibiki, and also IMO Geese are solid choices.

Best K Groove teams have Cammy and Sagat. Blanka, Kyo, Geese, Hibiki and Rock.



Pretty much every tourney team is setup like this...


And yeah to the guy who said "What version of CvS2 are you playing?" to My A Sak comment, she really does have everything good and 1 bad. A long, fast, safe, uncrouchable, High-Priority poke in s.hk. She has one of the best crossups in the game, Extremely good and Safe RC's. Very solid AA's, hugely damaging custom landed off said crossup, or RC Hurricane. Great BNB that builds hella meter, and leads to ambigous crossups, and does solid damage/stun. Pretty much no bad matchups, GREAT throw, and dive kicks are really good.

[TekkenStar5]

sak loses to cammy
she cant mindless rc hurricane kick or abuse divekick.

[MAGUS1234]

she does not loose to cammy...its just a more equall fight

[C_2]

i think there's one thing we all agree on, Kyosuke is last on the tier list.

[popoblo]

viscant, i'm very interested in your team rankings also.

anyway, i see cvs2 in a much more counter character light nowadays. i remember buk posted awhile ago in his "random tip of the day" thread that the ideal team model is battery/user/anchor.

with that in mind, look at the recent WINNING teams- choi uses ken/guile/sagat and daigo usually uses ken/sagat/guile in those orders. but i thought guile was specifically a battery, and the best one in the game at that? but think about who is usually second or last- chun li, sagat, blanka, bison, sakura, and cammy. guile does extremely well in all of those matches and blanka he's about even with. and by using guile second, you pretty much guarantee he's going to leave sagat with a full level 3 coming in. and only a full A-bison is scarier IMO.

or jwong used C-blanka/vega/sagat at texas showdown. once again, his vega encounters lots of really favorable matches and guarantees sagat to come in with a level 3 ready to make some big comebacks. so i guess you can stray from the typical battery/user/anchor if you've got good counter character setups instead and you guarantee your anchor to come in with full bar.

another tourney winning team is XXX/sagat/blanka. very solid, and the first character is usually cammy/guile/vega. most people don't put sakura last, so blanka avoids that counter matchup entirely.

and viscant, who is so demanding to master in N-groove? blanka, yama, iori, chun, ken, akuma, sagat.....who else is really technical and demands a great deal of practice time with to master?

and to whoever responded to my eagle comment about winning in tournies- yep, combofiend is beastly with him, and arturo got top 8 at evo with C-eagle. i guess some japanese player is going to have to use him or something before he catches on. when i was at midwest challenge, i sat down next to roger williams and picked eagle, and he immediately called me popoblo. i asked how he knew it was me, and he said, "nobody picks eagle dude." their loss i guess, but eagle is damn close to top tier.

good thread

[MAGUS1234]

The problem with eagle in the current enviorment is that his good pokes are to punnishable,and too slow to come out.You really have to judge a character based on how they do vs cammy sagat blanka and sak/bison.Personally yes I do think is a really solid character but he relies to hevily on his sweep as his main poke which is incredibly slow,I don't know too much about him so bear with me,I think his other main poke s.Fp? is duckable?,his antiairs are good but not top.On the plus his super combos are rediculous and do hella damage,thats why I think maybe he is best in K.

Also about the battery situation,Personally(alot disagree)I think it is only relevent in p-groove where getting a super does take time.In C-groove I generally see two level twos a match,and every character in the game can gain 2 supers without a character before them supplying it...even chun doesnt really have that problem.Thats why it doesnt really matter in c-groove.

Situations that "could" call for it are:like I stated earlier p-groove characters like blanka and vega and kyo that are really good even w/out bar being played first to gain a bar for the folowing character liike cammy or sagat, rolento or rugal or ken to use it.2nd is lets say a groove where you play blanka first to do good damage and still gain bar for the folowing sakura or bison.Last we see C- groove where in my opinion the character that absolutaly needs a meter builder before hand is chun-li.

Just my thoughts..of course.

[S4v]

The problem with eagle is he's a major counter character. He's really solid when it comes to defending himself but taking action and keeping momentum is hard for him unless he's in a run groove. He has a dope cross up that he can rarely use due to the fact he can't knock fools down with his BB. And that sweep of his puts him outta range to use his cross up. On a basic poke level he's kinda stale.

But there's hope for him. If i were playin him i'd be playing him in close with counter hit/parry/throw set ups all day. He can get in on a lot of characters with that jumping forward. When done correctly it stuffs a lot of anti airs. Once you get in start mixing up throws with counter hit jabs and tick throws. You can even do that rushing stick attack with jab. Its -2 recovery hit or not. That can set up some parries and counter hits. I dont have my dc here but im pretty sure you can get in close and set up some guard strings that can lead to an early jumping cross up set up. Eagles HK cross up has ambiguous (sp?) properties. I have not touched eagle in days and when i did it was cuz of Apoc. Im pretty sure he knows more in depth set ups.

[S4v]

On another note. Daigo's team orders switch constantly. ken/guile for battery and sagat/guile for user. The only thing i haven't seen is ken as an anchor. Not yet..

[HeaT]

yo viscant im down for hearing what you think is top teams, i posted somewhere what i think top k groove teams are...

outside of k groove top teams i dont know...but its kind of obvious sort of...

but it would be tight if you or us here at srk would do top teams for EACH groove...good shit...

and i always wondered why people say this game is SOO unbalanced...like viscant said as time goes by it seems the game is getting more and more balanced...whatever though...

im outi

Roberth

[cheese_master]

This is just my opinion... but as far as top teams per groove.

I'd go with:

C: Ken/Guile/Sagat or Honda/Guile/Sagat is pretty good too... just no one uses that for whatever reason. And I think Chun can be subbed for Ken and put second as well.

A: Blanka/Sak/Bison or some order of the sort. I think Hibiki/Sak/Blanka is good too. I mean switching Bison for Hibiki is simply cuz Bison blows without meter.

P: I don't know.

S: I don't know

N: Iori/Chun/Sagat or Blanka. I think this is by far one of the best N groove teams, simply because Chun Li actually has a shit load of tricks in N groove. Iori is in best groove by far. And Sagat and Blanka, well, they are Sagat and Blanka. I think Sagat is good in N groove because counter roll is really good for him since his roll is good.

K: Geese or Sagat/Cammy or Kyo or Hibiki/Blanka. Geese and Sagat are good starting characters, because if they get going, they can easily take out 2 or 3 ratio points. Geese dizzies way too fast and add to the fact that his Deadly rave is a nice 50 to 60% combo that does a shitload of stun. Usually Geese is good to have first, because if they have the nerve to put Sakura first, he can easily dizzy and kill her off before she gets meter, usually, they don't do such a thing. Cammy and Hibiki are good second characters, because they fight A groove Sakura rather well, who is usually second. I put Kyo there, because when not fighting A groove Sakura, Kyo is a pretty good second character because he can easily give a big ass lead or make a comeback if need be. I think Blanka is the best finisher for K groove because he is gay and does too much guard crush. He has a shitload of stupid tricks to land supers and he can mount ridiculous comebacks.

Thats my opinion.

[epsilon_]

P-Kyo, Sagat, Cammy2 is the best IMO by far. P Blanka isn't that great, but he IS Blanka. P Kyo is really really good.


S-I'd Say something/Cammy/Sagat.



K-Cammy/Sagat/ then either Geese, Hibiki, Blanka, or Kyo, Rock is good, but I think these chars are alot better. N Yamazaki/Iori, Chun/Shoto, Blanka is the best N team imo.

[popoblo]

too much incorrect eagle info going on there, just gotta correct the biggest mistakes....

to magus1234

eagle does well against sakura, chun, bison, and blanka. sagat is a tougher match, but he's not hopeless. and his standing fierce should only be used for whiff punishing or after a counter hit crouching mk (for a 2 hit combo). and i think eagle's mediums are better than his fierces/roundhouses, especially crouching mk. and eagle has a very solid AA game between crouching fierce, standing mp, and RC lariat. you're not going to jump in much on eagle unless it's a well placed short jump. and eagle's level 2 is actually one of the most damaging in the game at 4800 damage. it ties with geese and raiden, and gief's level 2 FAB is 5000, but it can't be cancelled into anything. and if you combo into eagle's level 3 from a distance away, the last hits will whiff and you're screwed. C/A are hands down the best grooves.

to s4v

putting eagle in a run groove is damn near retarded. and eagle isn't really a guardcrushing character, he's more of a zoning character. his B&B doesn't knock down, but it is 10 hits and builds lots of meter. you can setup eagle's crossup in many ways, you just have to be creative. the easiest is off a fierce throw, but there are others. on a basic poke leve, eagle dominates, there's nothing stale about him. to get off on a tangent- if there weren't rolls, eagle would be top tier.

eagle's hcf + jab is NOT SAFE. between the initial contact and the following rapid hits, eagle is open season for uppercuts/supers/CC's/etc. go into training mode and try, the timing is pretty lenient. take a closer look at that frame data, the gap is pretty large.

ANYWAY

i'm still very interested to hear viscant's opinions on the best teams.....

[kusanagi]

hrm.. P Kyo.. He can take on Sagat and Blanka, troubles against Cammy and Chun Li. Thing is he is a good battery but also a decent user too.

[S4v]

to s4v

putting eagle in a run groove is damn near retarded. and eagle isn't really a guardcrushing character, he's more of a zoning character. his B&B doesn't knock down, but it is 10 hits and builds lots of meter. you can setup eagle's crossup in many ways, you just have to be creative. the easiest is off a fierce throw, but there are others. on a basic poke leve, eagle dominates, there's nothing stale about him. to get off on a tangent- if there weren't rolls, eagle would be top tier.

Fine. Why is is putting Eagle in a run groove damn near retarded? I dont have my DC here so I can test shit out at the moment. Off the top of my head that hop is good for hopping over fools after that throw and maybe hopping over ground fireballs.

And as far as the cross up off of throw is concerned. I dont remember if you have enough time to land the really good cross ups that he has. He has fake cross ups depending on spacing. When i say fake i mean the enemy blocks like a cross up and he lands in front still. Or he hits in front and lands behind. I've seen this hella long ago and i dunno if its somethin random and cant test it myself at the moment.

[caliagent#3]

I think u guys are forgetting that Eagles c.mp stuffs way too much shit. When ever i play eagle i use it like crazy. It sets up easy counter hits which lead to damaging combos. His AA game is on point, and he can zone the hell out of you. his only problem is getting poeple off when he's being rushed down. Eagle is definitely underrated and popoblo is right, when someone in japans starts beasting with eagle then everyone will start playing him. Just look at what daigo has done with ken.

[*InVeRs3*]

Eagle not good in a run groove? He's good in a run groove. All run grooves have small jump and his j.hp is like a generic blanka j.hp which is a good thing.

Best S-groove is Sakura/Yama/Sagat.

[MAGUS1234]

He;s still too slow, all the top characters:sagat blanka cammy chun bison and sak are all hella fast,thier pokes are all hella fast,they move hella fast and they all have hella easy ways to link super/cc.Eagle also walks pretty slow and jumps slow so vs someone like cammy blanka or chun,he is gonnal eat pokes all day till hes gaurd broke(a little drastic but you know what I mean).You are talking like japanese have never played eagle,it's not that, it's just that he doesn't do well vs the big guys,plain and simple.

Trust me Eagle is better when nobody plays him anyways.That is one thing going for him, not alot of ppl know how to respond to fighting him.But after adapting to his game it's just an uphill battle.In no way am I saying he is bad, I'm just saying that putting him near the furious five just doesn't fit.

[Dnut]

Umm....Eagle counters Blanka and Chun li.:)

[HeaT]

the best k team is geese/blanka/sagat...period...and it dont matter who your ratio 2 is on that team...

if your posting k groove teams that have people that shouldnt be ratio 2 then IMO they are not the best teams...

im outi

Roberth

[TekkenStar5]

BLANKA/HONDA/SAGIT

[Philth]

Originally posted by TekkenStar5
BLANKA/HONDA/SAGIT

Quit playing my team.

[TekkenStar5]

Originally posted by Philth


Quit playing my team.

quit being a faggot

[Philth]

Originally posted by TekkenStar5


quit being a faggot

Dont like being fucked anymore?

[popoblo]

S4v

eagle isn't good in a run groove because it takes away his dash, which is arguably one of the best in the game. and what's a running eagle going to do? run up jab 2 or 3 times, then a really obvious standing fierce or crouching rh to be rolled through and punished? i'm sure you could run up and crouching mk for counter hits linked into fierce, but eagle just doesn't benefit from run very much. and a run groove doesn't give you CC/level 2 cancels. eagle's level 3 sucks if you don't combo it from really close because the last hit will whiff and eagle's wide open. and hop has many other uses, better positioning comes to mind.

and yea, eagle's fake crossup is good, and he has enough time to walk backwards slightly after a throw to setup a nice guessing game with a normal jump rh.

caliagent#3, somebody rushing your eagle down? land a blocked crouching jab, then hit crouching strong, and it pushes them out to eagle's optimal range again. simple enough.

*InVeRs3*, top S-team NEEDS cammy. and eagle's small jump roundhouse pales in comparison to blanka's. slower, less range, and not safe when he lands if you hit it early. maybe slightly more priority, but it's not as good as blanka's.

MAGUS1234

pretty faulty points there. eagle's CC is very versatile to land. his link into CC is extremely lenient/easy, and he has tripguard, AA, ground, and other random situational ones. and his level 2 C-groove combo is RIDICULOUSLY easy to land. crouching jab, crouching mk, level 2. it always hits no matter what range, and you get lots of counter hit crouching jabs to make it even easier. and the range on his crouching jab is pretty sick in the first place.

and trust me, eagle isn't a bag of tricks. so once you "figure out his game," you still haven't figured out too much because he's such a powerful zoning character.

and yea, he counters cammy and chun, and vs. blanka is pretty even actually.

philth and tekkenstar5, please don't turn this into some random flame war.

VISCANT, please tell us your team rankings. i'm very interested in hearing them.

[kcxj]

Damn Popo... What's with you and Eagle? You love that character more than I love taffy. :lol:

The qcb+HP move is safe when you do it against a cornered Sagat. For some reason he's forced to block every single tick hit and then can't hit Eagle afterwards.

If Eagle had a good reliable juggle CC like Bison, Blanka, or Sak, I would use him for sure. Other than that, I think he's best in C though. "Chicken blocking" gives him something to do against Honda, low jumpers, and Yamazaki being cheap.

Unless you have parry, JD, or airblock, Eagle sucks against far jump-ins (like Sagat's far j.HK).

[Iceman]

Originally posted by popoblo
eagle's CC is very versatile to land. his link into CC is extremely lenient/easy

Which link do you use into go into CC?

Oh and why do you say Eagle counters Cammy and Chun?

VISCANT, please tell us your team rankings. i'm very interested in hearing them.

This will make at least two people.

[VkreW]

rate my team

K Grove - Vega Bison BlankaR2

[BaitOutClowns]

Originally posted by VkreW
rate my team

K Grove - Vega Bison BlankaR2


I think you're a scrub that can only do Charge motions.

[Ryumexicano]

Originally posted by BaitOutClowns



I think you're a scrub that can only do Charge motions.

:p :lol:

[popoblo]

Originally posted by kcxj
Damn Popo... What's with you and Eagle? You love that character more than I love taffy. :lol:

The qcb+HP move is safe when you do it against a cornered Sagat. For some reason he's forced to block every single tick hit and then can't hit Eagle afterwards.

If Eagle had a good reliable juggle CC like Bison, Blanka, or Sak, I would use him for sure. Other than that, I think he's best in C though. "Chicken blocking" gives him something to do against Honda, low jumpers, and Yamazaki being cheap.

Unless you have parry, JD, or airblock, Eagle sucks against far jump-ins (like Sagat's far j.HK).

lol, idk man, i just really enjoy his play style and the way he can straight up dominate certain matches.

and no, the RC lariat is not safe up close. sagat can stick out a crouching lk xx super inbetween one of the last hits. not many people know this, so i'm sure you can get the win with it sometimes just because people don't know about it. same thing with grapplers, they can just mash 360 + punch and they'll throw you towards the end of your lariat animation.

and when you "chicken block," do you do crouching mk into super or just straight into super? i've never really experimented with it too much to see all its uses.

Iceman, check in the eagle thread for the vs cammy and vs chunners stuff. the link to CC is use is this...

crouching jab x2, CC, crouching mP, continue CC (crouching mp because it comes out in 4 frames, and crouching mk comes out in 5). only let mp hit once and then do standing fierce x2, hcf mp, etc etc etc

damn viscant, please come and save the day in here:lol:

[Viscant]

When I got started with this, I thought that it would be a lot easier to do more teams. But then I found out that a lot of my teams were really very very similar to other teams, just with one character swapped out, or with characters changing places and switching roles. So I narrowed it down to a few teams, and I commented on all of them.

A-Blanka/Sakura/Bison(2).
This is really team CvS2. I know it's really Team BAS and has an official name (check Buk's thread), but I just call it team CvS2. It has pretty much everything that pisses me off about CvS2 all rolled up in one. This team is built with battery/user/anchor. A-Blanka is a fine character on his own, but he doesn't need his meter to be dangerous. Blanka can start custom if you mess up (i.e. miss sweep, activate, slide xx ouch) so he can use his meter smartly and only when it's totally guaranteed.
A groove has the shortest meter in the game to charge and it shows when every time you fall down Blanka gets to pikachu on you and get meter, damage, guard damage all for free.
As near as I can tell, the main strategy here is to try and get Sakura 2 shots at the custom. Against K groove, getting meter twice = a character dies without anything I can do about it, so it's bullshit. This is why this team is perfect against K groove. Barring the other guy fucking up somehow, Blanka will always be able to drag things out long enough to get a meter for Sakura. And barring another huge fuckup, Sakura will get another meter. So even if your first two characters do jackshit except build meter and custom, Sakura still makes things totally even. Bullshit.
And of course you know this NEVER happens. Blanka's Blanka, so worst case scenario he gets like half damage on you, so this team is ALWAYS winning against K groove. Bison is really just there to slam the door. He can play totally safe and if you're losing you have to take stupid risks against him, so he usually just has to follow pattern to get the win in the end.

Anyways, the main reason I think this team is the best is because it's the best team in the best groove. Pretty simple huh? Even against non-K, this team makes you take all kinds of crazy risks just to not get killed. This team always has meter so if you make even a really small mistake you die.

Hybrids:
Cammy/Sakura/Bison
Vega/Sakura/Bison
Hibiki/Sakura/Bison
Rolento/Sakura/Bison
Basically they follow the pattern. Battery/user/anchor. Just try and make it so that Sakura makes sure you're always winning, then Bison slams the door. They don't get nearly as much meter or safe shit as the Blanka version does, but they follow the same pattern. You can start Vega's and Hibiki's customs off footsie whiffs, so they really only use meter when it's guaranteed damage, and they sit around forever building meter and not moving backwards. Cammy's version is different because she really shouldn't use meter, but she's still Cammy, so you win in the end anyways.

K-another/Cammy/Sagat(2) K-team scrub
I won't even mention who the another is and make team hybrids for this team because it's K groove; there is no real concept of teamwork. I will start out by saying the most common theme is making sure that your first character and your 2nd character (Cammy) have opposite counter characters. Another benefit of it being K groove is that you can counter character pretty easily. Like on the 1st team I mentioned, if you put Sakura out first, that might be fine in the short run, but you're giving away your primary advantage. This team is much more fluid and you can even play around with your R2. Like if your Cammy is getting countered by Yamazaki or Guile, you can just stick Sagat in the middle of your team and that solves that problem.
But anyways yeah, since Guile/Yamazaki tend to eliminate Cammy pretty well, some people put in Vega because he beats both of them. Other common teams with X/Cammy/Sagat have had Ryu, Bison, Blanka in the past. K-Cammy/Blanka/Sagat is probably the most common team but it's probably the least wise. If you get by Cammy, an R2 C-Vega who politely declines to move forward kills the rest of your team.
Usually though, the benefit of this team is that K-Cammy and K-Sagat can put you in a lot of situations where they're essentially guaranteed to do damage because once they're a couple ticks away from rage, they can just go kamikaze on you. That's like the biggest difference between good K team scrubs and bad ones. This is by nature a defensive team, but when you have a weakened guard meter and you're close to rage, you just go nuts on everyone but A-Sakura with zero repercussions. K-Cammy and K-Sagat have so many essentially guaranteed guard crush sequences and because their supers link off their guard crushing moves, you can't take the hit.
There's really no art behind the team, it's just a power team.

C-Guile/Ken/Sagat(2) Team "let's bite off of Choi and Japan"
See, for a long time I couldn't figure out why people played this team. In reality this is a really hard team to play. C-Ken is not user friendly. You HAVE to have that kamikaze offense to play C-Ken so that immediately eliminates like 98% of US CvS2 players. This team changed a lot from when it was C-Guile/Chun/Sagat. It shouldn't even be a hybrid (but it is, I'll get to that later).
I think this team is really unstable in a lot of ways and most of the people playing it should switch teams. When someone really good plays it though, it cooks. The main thing about the team is Ken so I'll spend the majority of my time talking about him.
OK, good Ken causes probably the most dizzies in the game (only other one who comes close is Yamazaki). So much of Ken's game is figuring out how to get to short,short and then finishing the combo. But see, that's why I don't get why people play this team. This isn't like 3s. It's HARD to earn short,short in this game without eating way too much low fierce and way too much stand rh to get in. The main thing you're supposed to do is RC fancy kick to discourage people from sticking stuff in your face as you're trying to push in, but still that's exactly zero help against like Yamazaki or Vega or Hibiki or Blanka who control so much of the land in front of you that the range you'd want to use RCs in, totally doesn't belong to you, and against like Yamazaki, you get seriously hurt for trying it. Ken's just such an all or nothing character.
And Guile is really hard to play also. The skillsets that it takes to play C-Guile and C-Ken are just...totally Street Fighter skills and a lot of the people who play CvS2 just don't have Street Fighter skills.
This sounds really negative but I'm just trying to explain why I think that like 9 out of 10 people who play this team now, should drop it and play a different team. Here's where the team really shines though: when played right, it beats both of the teams above it. Guile on Cammy is probably Cammy's 2nd worst fight (behind Cammy/Yamazaki), Ken can do OK on A-Sakura and if he lands one combo and then his "unblockable" crossup, she's dizzied and then killed. If Ken doesn't get his combos off, then Sagat shows up with level 3 and that's trouble. And on the other hand if Ken gets the lead on pretty much ANY team in the game, C-Sagat is an Eric Gagne like closer. He just doesn't blow leads. C-Sagat with meter just completely shuts down your footsie game. If you miss essentially anything he can just counter with fierce xx super. And if you miss the right kinds of stuff he doesn't even have to use that much super. A lot of fierce vs. fierce battles, C-Sagat wins every time and can finish with level 1 if you're close enough. That does like 35-40% damage off counterhit and...he still fucking has level 2 so he still "has meter". It's like you're just always going uphill.
Hybrids:
Guile/Chun/Sagat. This was the original and in one really really crucial way it does better. Chun-Li fights Vega and Hibiki way better. Vega/Hibiki pretty much kill this team. Chun-Li does better on them than Ken does. Chun-Li however sucks hard without meter so it handicaps Guile. Guile can't take as many chances with his meter because if he leaves Chun without supers, she has nothing scary until she gets it back. Switching to Ken makes your Guile better.
Blanka/Ken/Sagat. This team makes a lot of sense. C-Blanka is hardly rocket science to play so you don't have to worry about learning Guile. I think that the Guile team is better in a lot of circumstances, especially in the counter charactering battles, but this is a really really solid team and you don't have to unlearn CvS2 to play it.

A- starter/Sakura/Blanka(2)
OK, this looks like it should be a hybrid team of the first team, but it's not. Even though the ratio 1 A-Sakura is the centerpiece for the team, the fact that Blanka is there instead of Bison makes things so much different. Bison is mostly a closer on the first team. If you're not winning (that 5% of the time that you made a seriously grievous error and fucked yourself), you can't play the same. The benefit of this team is that you can play Blanka the same way whether you're winning or losing. This team makes a lot more comebacks than the first team. A-Blanka is also harder to counter character than A-Bison. Neither of them really like to look at a K-Cammy or K-Geese too much, but A-Blanka at least has some options.
The MAIN problem with this team is that finding a starter is hard. A-Blanka is really a GREAT starter character and this would be the best team in the game if you could pick Blanka twice and have him as closer and starter but thankfully that doesn't really work. I think that A-Rolento, Cammy or Vega are good choices. A-Eagle works OK here also. A lot of his shortcomings are completely negated by the rest of the team. You have to actually fight Eagle fairly because all his counter characters get raped by Sakura. That's why I think this is the best Eagle team IMO.

C-Vega/Sagat/Blanka (2 is interchangeable)
I'm not the biggest fan of Vega in this game but this team becomes really important. A lot of characters and teams I listed above have a LOT of trouble with a good Vega. Unfortunately a team like this will rot your brain. This is a great great team but lots of times people don't play it because it doesn't even feel like you're playing. Such a reactionary team.
On the plus side, if Vega gets the lead (which he surely will if the other guy started Guile or lots of the other characters I mentioned earlier), you'll be able to grind out the win and have Blanka and Sagat just sit on your lead. Most common team formation of this is Vega/Blanka/Sagat (2) because C-Blanka sitting on the level 3 that Vega built can do essentially nothing at all except look for that level 3 or look for knockdown into RC elec, and since he's winning, he's allowed to just do that and grind out a hold then hand off to C-Sagat to slam the door.

Notable hybrid:
Honda/Sagat/Blanka (mago's team). Works about the same. The main benefit to this team is that Honda completely shuts down a lot of the SNK characters like Kyo, Iori, Terry, Rock, Geese, Rugal. Whereas Vega shuts down a lot of other characters that people play (A-Hibiki, any-Yamazaki, Honda, Guile, A/C-Blanka). I think that the ability to play both of these teams makes you a really strong player and makes you really dangerous. The main problem with the Honda variation is that Hibiki simply violates the whole team. You never want to have one character shut your whole team down that badly.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[SA.M']

<3

[kcxj]

Thanks for the post Viscant. I enjoyed reading your analysis for the different characters.

A lot of people start off with Sakura instead of Bison as well on that Blanka anchored A-groove team. Sakura builds up meter really fast by making you block her far s.HK, whiffing far s.MP, and smartly whiffing dive kicks. You can even kara-cancel a j.HP into dive kick for that extra bit of meter if the opponent is hesistant to come attack you. I don't remember exactly, but it only takes 12 kara-dive kicks to build up a level 1 as opposed to 15-something regular ones.

When Bison comes in, his CC is always ready for massive damage. Plus he has more versistile setups than Sakura as well.

Depending on how skilled I feel my K-groove opponent is, I still might use Sakura as my second character at times though.

---------------------

With C-Ken, I try to stay just outside of Yamazaki's range and wait for him to roll. It's difficult at times when he's throwing saa!!'s all in your face though. Plus Ken has no counter I can think of to Yama's far j.MK as well. I don't like risking any of Ken's s.HK's against him. Most of the time I'm running away, building meter, and waiting for Yamazaki to make the first mistake. Then I make SURE to not mess up my combos. As soon as I can get that first knockdown, I'm going to attack him until I win. All the Yamazaki's I've played are really impatient and always try to roll out sooner or later.

Against Vega, I wait for him to jump. It's difficult because Vega's jump is so fast, but when you do get it off, a deep 3 hit DP always makes Vega think twice about ever leaving the ground again. As for the ground game, I jiggle around just outside of Vega's max slide range. When he does the slide is when I press far s.HK or sweep him for the knockdown. LP Hadouken's keep Vega from sliding as well, AND bait him into jumping.

I'm not very good against Hibiki with Ken though. Viscant, you pick up any tips from Choi on this match-up? I actually do better with Ryu than Ken in this match. If only Ken had Ryu's far s.HP and fast hadouken... :lol:

edit: Oh, if I think Yamazaki is going to do wake-up super, I stay JUST outside the max range of his grab super. Be careful, it's suprisingly far at level 2/3... When he whiffs the grab super, I either do d.MK xx level 3 kick super or just sweep when I don't have the meter. If he did the anti-super like a fool, (wtf are you thinking? I'm like two character distances away from you... lol) close s.HK xx HP shoryuken hurts so much.

[Storming Flower]

The skillsets that it takes to play C-Guile and C-Ken are just...totally Street Fighter skills and a lot of the people who play CvS2 just don't have Street Fighter skills.

Can you elaborate?

I'm somewhat inclined to agree.

[TekkenStar5]

sob said ken and guile are harder to play.

[cheese_master]

kcxj...

I don't know if throwing jab FBs works against Vega... since he can jump them on reaction and hit me with j RH into cr MK. But one thing i do with Ken is whenever Vega jumps up and down predicatably, go for a jump jab, to get him to airblock it or if he attacks too late, I win. This gets me in, assuming they jump up and down outside of RH range. If Vega tends to stay on the ground I try to throw some random cr jabs beat random low strongs and work my way in from there. Also using your cr RH to trade/beat with Vega's slide seems pretty key IMO... cuz it gets him knocked as well as yourself... but you keep him pretty close. Its hard to use f RH on Vega since his cr MK is pretty easy to stuff it before it comes out.

Versus Yamazaki, I think with Ken, it is key to be able to walk forward, and stuff his st RH with a cr MK, and see the CH and cancel into his hurricane kick super... this is Ken's only way for big damage in the poking game. This is my ditch effort if I cannot land a knockdown of the sort. If Yamazaki whiffs a RH, thats the best chance, to dash forward and get in... cuz i don't think Ken has shit to actually punish his whiffed RH, except maybe a perfect range walk forward st RH... which isn't easy, since he recovers fast as hell.

It doesn't matter, I think Blanka's ass rapes Shotos way worse than Yama or Vega. Blanka does too much damage vs Ken for Ken to take risks like he can vs Vega. If Vega knocks you down, you eat a couple of blocked shorts at best, if Vega wants to be ballsy. If Blanka knocks you down, you eat a nice a fat crapload of chips damage and guard crush, plus he has frame advantage.

Hibiki is just plain stupid. Versus her, I just throw FBs from just outside slash range if she is in K or P groove. If she is in a RC groove, I just jump around and do Hurricane kicks till I have meter and hope she fucks up or i guess right on random roll. Ryu vs her is alot easier because he can actually combo into a super off the poke game like is she whiffs a st FP to antiair because you were out of range... just pull a mini Sagat and walk forward st FP into super. Also faster FBs make it harder for her to RC through them on reaction. Ryu should still have cr RH into Shin-Sho for full damage.

And Viscant...

I think Geese stuns about as fast Ken... if not faster. It doesn't matter though because Geese in K groove does like 60% in one go. I just wish his low jump was easier to combo off of.

To those who wonder why Ken and Guile are harder to play...

IMO... its because... in K groove... when push comes to shove, its not that hard to land random poke into super with Sagat and Cammy. Considering both have easy access to "see a poke connect into lvl 3". IMO the main reason K groove is even hard to play is because of A groove Sakura. If not for her, you'd see a shitload more K groove players. Thats why in the US, where there are more than one team per tournament allowed... almost every K groove player has a nice backup A groove or C groove team... to get out of the whole, deal with A groove Sakura bit. But for the most part K groove Geese/Cammy/Sagat or Blanka... don't take alot thinking and reading the opponent to play... they do shitloads of damage... and have alot of shitty tricks to land those damaging ass level 3s. All of which easily get you back into the match.

At the same time... there is the A groove teams of Blanka/Sak/Bison... this team is easier to play because as Viscant said, you always have meter... two characters can nearly kill of someone with a CC. Sakura is harder to play vs non-K and P, but she gets meter so quickly... missing the CC is hardly a concern, just land a random low short when they try to throw you, and you get a nice 20%... plus an oppurtunity to land another combo... plus alot of dizzy. Sakura's footsies aren't the most complex in the world, alot of st RH. Blanka is a walking mixup with his dash RC and throw... while this may see easy to stop... its hard to do everytime... and when he has that CC to combo off the electric... you are very tempted to deal with the throw or block damage. And when he doesn't have meter... he can just whiff some electrics a safe distance away to make you come to him. Bison has just become a retarded character since RCs. He spends his time just sitting and being frustrating and baiting anything to land a RC MK Scissor. He is not rocket science. And if the match is really going on the line for him and he has a FP or two worth of life left... just dash throw a couple times, and then dash CC... it's great for comebacks. Because Bison has that random factor. The main thing to learn about him... his cr MK range, and his one hit scissor range. After that, everything is gravy. Also learn to punish whiffed pokes with MK scissor kick into CC.

Guile and Ken are hard to play because Guile vs K groove is so much work. Watch Daigo vs Ino... watch how much more Guile works to win the few matches he wins. The matchs Ino wins... he lands a super here and there with Blanka and its over. Guile is hard to actually play at the level of getting your opponent helpless. Learning all the matchups is a pain. You have to have good footsies to beat K groovers and A groove Sak or Vega or Blanka.

Ken is even harder IMO... and viscant explained why. The saving grace of that C groove team is C Sagat, who lets people get shitloads of comebacks to win. Even Choi I've seen a match vs Ricky where Ken and Guile don't do much, but Sagat comes in and wins it for him. C Sagat can often make up for the other two... but fact is, just because Sagat is winning it for you, doesn't mean you know how to play Ken or Guile. Its hard to play them with consistency and win. Both of them are hard work to win... no "look I can be random as hell and I can still win button" ala A groove Bison/Sak CCs or Blanka random RC electrics or K groove Sagat or Cammy or Blanka mad damage tricks to land supers.

[MAGUS1234]

Good post for once everyone!
But I think now that we have exhausted the top tiers in more than one thread I say we take those teams,which if any of you go to evo you ARE going to see, and talk about what characters can beat those main teams of any groove.For example

The team to beat and apperantly P-groove's worst enemy
A-blanka or Sagat or rolento/Sak/bison
Also C- Guile/ken/Sagat
K-Sagat/blanka/cammy

So what are some counters to these teams Or character specific?

[kcxj]

Popoblo:

Against Honda headbutt with C-Eagle, do late reaction airblock, free d.HK for the knockdown when you're midscreen. If the extra damage from a far s.HP will get you the win, do that instead.

If you're back is to the corner when Honda headbutts, do the chicken block, then far s.MK xx sticks or far s.HK xx super.

Just jumping early, holding back, and coming down with j.HK is good enough basic strategy most of the time.

-----------

cheese_master:

Only scrub Blanka's do hop, RC, hop, throw mixup as their main strategy. Just rush those players down. You can use weak characters like N-Akuma even. As soon as they get overwhelmed is when they start mashing on b+KKK. Learn to bait and punish that move accordingly depending on whatever character you have asap.

If he's jamming on whiff RC electricity from far away, throw a fireball at him, then either 1.) rush him down when he blocks, 2.) anticipate his slide and jump in, or 3.) wait for him to RC hop then take your free combo.

If the Blanka is really scrubby and whiffing the RC electricity right in your face, use your character's four frame d.MK to combo him in his recovery for free. (ie. Rolento d.MK xx pipe twirls)

[jae hoon]

Originally posted by Storming Flower


Can you elaborate?

I'm somewhat inclined to agree.

Because alot of people that play CvS2 competitively. This is there first SF type game at all that they played like that.

CvS2 got alot of KOF Fans playing, alot of New SF type fans and some Tekken fans.

[caliagent#3]

Originally posted by Storming Flower


Can you elaborate?

I'm somewhat inclined to agree.

It's becuase many new age players don't have footsies. U need to have really good footsies to win with ken against sagat. Many people play characters with "auto footsies". For example, cammy, sagat, sak don't really have to work that hard at all to land a few hits, and they don't require u to think.

[n817azn]

Originally posted by caliagent#3


It's becuase many new age players don't have footsies. U need to have really good footsies to win with ken against sagat. Many people play characters with "auto footsies". For example, cammy, sagat, sak don't really have to work that hard at all to land a few hits, and they don't require u to think.


haha, sooo true.



n8

[MCTek]

Originally posted by cheese_master
kcxj...
IMO... its because... in K groove... when push comes to shove, its not that hard to land random poke into super with Sagat and Cammy. Considering both have easy access to "see a poke connect into lvl 3". IMO the main reason K groove is even hard to play is because of A groove Sakura. If not for her, you'd see a shitload more K groove players.


What exactly is the last word in K jd'ing against Sakura? A lot of threads been made but seems people are just resigned to not play K against her? I know for most characters even jd'ing all the hits of the hurriken (save the last one of course) STILL puts her at frame advantage, is that correct? I've been pressured to just run away with all day hoping to get lucky.

[VkreW]

Originally posted by BaitOutClowns



I think you're a scrub that can only do Charge motions.

Your Right! :[

[popoblo]

thanks for the tips kcxj.

excellent post viscant. do you really see many top teams with chun li on them anymore besides old team daigo? it seems most teams have evolved to counter her at any position. strong xx death is always nice, but not many opportunities come up if the matchups are played right.

and i also use C-eagle/sagat/blanka. any inherent flaws with that team? i like eagle better than vega to start off with because he has more favorable matchups than vega as the battery (and builds meter quicker also).

[Viscant]

On C-Guile/C-Ken being SF skills.
A lot of Guile is pure footsie and poking games. This is something that doesn't really exist in the 3-D games or in KoF or Marvel. Or for that matter even in the rest of CvS2. Like take me for example. I use Yamazaki and Hibiki. When I want to move forward, I do it. When I want to poke, I do it. Why? Because both of those characters have the one button solution to pretty much everything you can throw at me. See, Guile doesn't really have that. He has to use ALL of his tools just to fend off me slapping the one button.
And with Ken, it's even more complicated. I've discussed this with a few other people and some people agree, some don't, so take this with a grain of salt. I think that earning short,short with Ken is a lot like earning throws in older games. You have to use pretty much everything you can to either earn that sweep or earn that stun to walk forward or dash forward close enough to where you can be dangerous. I think that's one of the things that makes CvS2 weird. Again, this is something that you don't have in other games. If Kyo wants to get close in KoF, he just bulls his way in with low jump, roll, or just runs up in there and gets himself some (low fierce not being as prevalent in KoF games, Ikaris aside). You have to mix them up just to get them to block so you can walk forward, or mix them up so they sweep when you SJ for the crossup and even then it's not guaranteed that you'll hit them (Ken eats a LOT of Cammy up drill, even when he did everything right).
Even a lot of people who only played SF in their older days might not have a strong enough poking game to get by my one button with their Guile, or will never get close enough to do any damage with Ken. That's what I mean by saying that 98% of US CvS2 players have no business playing this team. Especially because the lowest common denominator in CvS2 is Cammy slapping RH or Blanka/Sagat chilling with low fierce.

Anyways on Ken's matchups that people asked about.
I think that Ken vs. Hibiki might be his worst match. You should ask Buktooth what he thinks about that since he plays vs. Choi a lot and I play against Choi maybe once or twice a year. I play some pretty good shotos every now and then though, so I still feel like I can answer that. Like I was saying above though, it's just so hard to get in on Hibiki. The crossup which is Ken's best friend, is completely absent in this fight because there's no answer for getting by my stand fierce, especially because if he fakes me out and makes me guess low, I'm ramming on low short so I have plenty of time to react and fierce him out of the sky. Also Ken can be corner guarded in this fight; Hibiki has virtually no need to walk backwards. Even though Ken's the "aggressor", he still backs up a bit but can't make Hibiki back up at all. Eventually even if he's doing everything "right", he's still going to have to take a risk just to get by my ultra-basic, low, low risk poking game. RC fancy kick is no help because I can watch him whiff it, dodge it on reaction, or whatever then stand forward or low fierce or something to earn even more ground and keep him pushed back more towards the corner. A-Ken has some more options and N-Ken has a LOT more options, but the most common variant (C-Ken) really doesn't have that much that frightens Hibiki. At least he can take solace in knowing that should he ever land that golden low short, she'll have a long road to take the lead back, even though she should be favored to do it in time.
I think the match looks much the same way vs. Vega. Vega can always keep him on the tip of his range and Ken is pressed hard to earn his way in. Also running groove Vegas can corner guard a lot easier, running at his body after landing a sweep. Ken vs. Vega seems to be always fought with Ken in the corner even though Vega is doing essentially nothing offensively. At least in this fight, the crossup is a little bit more in play since Vega's anti-crossup can be irregular (at least I have to pick a different button and sometimes jump or do a move; not just fierce for all occasions). Also Ken's DP is much more in play in this fight. Ken vs. Hibiki, even if he guesses right with jab DP it whiffs and Hibiki can put a decent hurt on him for missing. Vega without burning meter really can't do too much, so you can take more chances with that. A lot of the times I lose this fight, Ken random DPs a low strong or something then I get crossed up and eat the level 2 cancel or get dizzy somehow (I swear I've been dizzied by like one jab DP, crossup, 2 low shorts and fancy kick and NOTHING else before). So now all of a sudden I look up and I'm behind by like 40% and now I have to actually play fair and everything falls apart. Not like that's an expected outcome or anything but when I lose this fight, that's usually the post-mortem look.

MCTek:
I'm fairly sure on Sakura still having frame advantage off a fully JDed hurricane kick. I remember, I used to think that K-Zangief was a counter to Sakura and Chun-Li in the early days of RC (the theory being, they do random RC moves, I JD, SPD and then we go from there). It didn't work, mostly because Sakura could always jump away, and since SPD is a 1 frame move...do the math on that I guess. I do know that she doesn't have like a +5 like Guile low forward because when I JD all the hits with Yamazaki and get the meter, you have one hell of a 50/50 to negotiate your way through because I'm going to super and you can't jab to stop me; it's just a question of which one I'm going to do. Yet another thing that pisses me off about A-Sakura vs. K groove.

popoblo:
I think that team looks about fine. Honestly I don't have that much experience with C-Eagle other than Apoc's and that was ages ago. Most of the Eagle I see now is mine (K groove) and Combo Fiend's (A groove), so a lot of my perspective is probably slanted in that direction. Anyways, I think that that team looks about right because it follows the model. The model of that team was basically, get the lead, get the meter, then turtle and grind your way to the win. If you get Eagle on his good matches, then yeah it'll definitely work.
And I rarely see that much Chun-Li anymore. Very very rarely in C groove. She shows up in N groove on the few occasions that she does make an appearance. It makes sense. Low jump gives her something scary to do while you're scrounging for meter and also in N groove, even after you land a level 3, you still might have something left in the tank to shoot with. I cut two teams off of my list, mostly because I couldn't fairly call them top teams anymore (P Joe/Cammy/Sagat, with Vega, Yama, Athena, Hibiki, Rugal, Geese as hybrid starters instead of Joe; and N Yama/Chun/Blanka or Iori/Yama/Blanka). I could post those up if anyone's interested but yeah, that's about the only time you really see Chun-Li anymore. I agree with you...I think in a way she got overplayed and everyone simultaneously realized that she really only has one real avenue of damage and in a game with as many options as CvS2, you can kind of avoid that situation. She still has some good matchups. N-Chun can frustrate a C-Sagat for awhile, especially while she's holding meter and she's still pretty annoying on Hibiki and my Yamazaki has trouble with it (although I don't think C/N Yama have too much trouble, she can almost lock down my K Yama).

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[kcxj]

Sakura is -2~0 after her hard hurricane kick is JD'd. You're in the exact same frame situation as if you blocked a Chun-li SBK regularly. Sakura normally gets +3.

I used the math Buktooth made up. 19~21 stun frames for a JD'd special move. Minus the recovery + last active frames of Sakura's hurricane (21 frames total).

(19~21) - 21 = -2~0 static difference

I don't know how accurate he is, but it seems about right to me. The reason people think Sak is cheap and that she has frame advantage even if you JD! blah... blah... is really because she has that 3 frame close s.HP to follow you up with. You can JD then psychic DP her if she likes mashing on fierce after you JD her hurricane.

edit: oh yeah, I've been saying Chun-li isn't that great for over a year now, but everybody in the forums dismissed me as crazy etc... :lol: Again, Viscant knows what I'm talking about. Same thing with the never backing up. Turtling and running away into the corner all day is always weak in the long run.

[popoblo]

Originally posted by Viscant

*snip*


thanks for the advice viscant. i was going between C-eagle/guile/sagat and C-eagle/sagat/blanka, but i just thought the second option is much safer and sagat is easier to play with in general due to easy mode footsies (as you mentioned) and fewer counter matchups. and i'm sure you'll be at evolution, so i'd love to play you and give you some experience with C-eagle, because i've never faced a good yama or hibiki player:cool:

and i'd be extremely interested in why you think those P and N groove teams aren't top teams. i've been experimenting with P-groove and N-groove lately. i was thinking about using N-yama or iori/chun li/blanka and P-kyo or vega/r2 cammy/sagat, but i was unsure on what teams would really give me trouble and if i should even try to learn them.

[epsilon_]

I like N groove alot, Idk why not many U.S. players like it. N Groove teams I like are Iori/Yamazaki/shoto, Chun, Sagat/Blanka. Best P team IMO is Kyo, Sagat, Cammy 2.

[Ouroborus]

Originally posted by n817azn



haha, sooo true.



n8

:lol: :lol: :lol:

dope avatar.

well what can i say about this thread?

what do you all think is the best C team? we all know the best C character is sagat but who comes after him? I'm thinkin C blanka although he isnt as popular as A or K blanka.

seems like most of the better and more used characters in the game are better in another groove besides C.

[MAGUS1234]

I don't know about Sakura abusiing huricane kicks,nor a character who can always do something about it countering her.All the A-saks I play get counter/parried/Jd on hurricane kicks, I mean they ARE good don't get me wrong and they do set up alot of stuff, but generally I see her using dive kicks alot to get close and go for 50/50 throw traps.Kind of like you used to see lots of Saks doing jabXX hurrican then RC hurricane then jab..ect, now it's just lots of footsies then if she gets a knockdown it's cross up/over BS, if that doesn't hit then 50/50 throw traps. My p-sagat blanka cammy dont really have a hard time vs her, there is,of course, that unavoidable CC every now and then but for the most part it seems ppl are getting more comfortable playing her.

N-chun is really good, she has that low jump lightning kick into super link.Counter roll dosnt really have alot of use, but its there for those specific situations,her footsies is really good(almost cammy like) you just have to be more patient.Her running jabs are good to and has prolly the best damage/mixup from a connected jab. I playd Buk's N-chun a couple times,it game me a pretty hard time,where as like ricky's C-chun is way more predictable and gave me alot less trouble, not to take away from rick's skill cause he is insane at the game but you see what I mean.

[HeaT]

good shit jay...we have to play the cammy matches that you think she gets owned...i wanna see if your right...

ken looses to hibiki, last time i played viscant all my shotos got worked by his hibiki, but i dont think i got the greatest shotos and i was playing k groove...but this was a WHILE ago...

im outi

Roberth

[caliagent#3]

Originally posted by HeaT
good shit jay...we have to play the cammy matches that you think she gets owned...i wanna see if your right...

ken looses to hibiki, last time i played viscant all my shotos got worked by his hibiki, but i dont think i got the greatest shotos and i was playing k groove...but this was a WHILE ago...

im outi

Roberth

Hmmm interesting that your k shotos got worked by hibiki. I would think that with k groove u could work some mix ups off of jd jumpins. Short jump grooves are best in this matchup though, because it's extremely hard to get in on a good hibiki.

[HeaT]

Originally posted by caliagent#3


Hmmm interesting that your k shotos got worked by hibiki. I would think that with k groove u could work some mix ups off of jd jumpins. Short jump grooves are best in this matchup though, because it's extremely hard to get in on a good hibiki.

naw man, shotos cant do anything after jding s.fp from hibiki (actually you can do some shit with akuma like dive kick or fireball but it doesnt really get you anywhere) and low jumps dont work, you cant jd while low jumping AND hibiki can just react to it...you can bait out s.fp to wiff by low jumping the right distance, but that shit is hard to do, or to get in the position to do that...

but like i said this was a LONG time ago, and really i only play ken, and although my ken has advanced a lot since then i still dont think he will win...

im outi

Roberth

[Viscant]

The main reason I think the P and N teams aren't really top teams anymore is pretty simple: nobody plays them anymore. Almost all of my P-groove experience comes from facing like 3 quality players (George "Gee-O" Posadas being the one that most people would have heard of) and the horde of LA 3s players. That's just not a proper study sample. I do notice occasionally Japan comes through; usually with some kind of combination of Kyo, Sagat, Cammy, Rugal, Chun-Li (don't ask, I have no idea why either). Everyone here fell in love with P-Joe instantly and I've always thought that P-Joe was a major sleeper character but Japan seems to have completely disregarded him which is curious.
The main purpose of the P groove teams is to out turtle the turtles. Also, P groove has a huge advantage off of tech throws. A lot of P groove players I see are "aggressive turtles" much like myself in that they're not really attacking, but they're moving forward and baiting you into doing stuff. P groove dies to people who won't do anything under any circumstances (very very smart turtles like Ricky and SiN have been shown to give our P groovers fits), or A groove players who build meter and hand off to Sakura. Other than Cammy, none of the P groove cast is really fit to pressure someone into doing something, so Cammy seems to be on all P groove teams. She's like Joe in that she buffers parries off her staple attacks (parry buffer like towards...rh).

I think the reason that the N groove team isn't a top team anymore is that very VERY few top players play those teams. Occasionally you see someone in a Japan tournament get 3rd with like...N groove fucked up characters but you rarely see top characters in N groove. It seems like the people who want to win and want to play top characters just go the extra mile and pick the more common grooves. In America it's much the same way...we only really have one top N groove player (Buktooth).
So yeah, in a lot of ways I think teams like N-Iori/Chun/Yama or Iori/Yama/Blanka or Yama/Chun/Blanka match up really really well on paper, it just doesn't have the same body of work to back it up. I try to play N groove because I just desperately need a 2nd team (sick of watching my K Yama get shredded and grinded down by A-Sak) but it is legitimately hard to learn. I'll probably give up and just play a C team like C Vega/Yama/Hibiki as my 2nd team. This seems to be what happened to most of the early N groove players anyways...

Ouroboros:
For my money, the best C team is probably Guile/Ken/Sagat although there are matchup problems. I think C-Sakura is really underrated also and should be considered up there with C-Blanka. Almost everyone who likes Sakura jumped on A-groove but a lot of what Sakura has that's annoying can be ported into C groove just as easily and she has some good supers. I think she deserves a 2nd look; she can battery for a C groove team just as good as Vega could for example, and she has hot foot and easy to set up level 2 cancels. She deserves more play IMO.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[HeaT]

actually p chun is pritty good imo. for one she stores super. and she has parry you thought you were scared to do shit against chun when she was in c groove with meter? wait for p chun shit gets styupid. on top of that she has low jump to work with. her option selects are good, she doesnt need rc really...you will get thrown a lot because of the fear of parry into super. i think it opens chuns game up more from the restrictions she has in other grooves. i think p groove moves her 1 demensional game up to 1 1/2 demensions hahaha...

im outi

Roberth

[popoblo]

thanks for the P and N groove analysis viscant. i thought you meant there was some inherent flaw in those grooves/teams (except for A-sak vs P-groove) that always hold them back from being top. but it all just comes down to the amount of work a player wants to put in eh? makes sense. i could see how it would be much more rewarding though. look at buktooth, he can actually rushdown with his iori and morrigan, and to a lesser extent, his hibiki. and ohnuki just rips shit up with his N-akuma. being able to rushdown when you're not in K-groove should be incentive enough for some players. i remember trying to learn N-blanka extensively but there was almost too many things at your disposal.

kinda funny, i was playing some casual a few days ago and i started to just play A-sak/bison/r2 blanka for shits and giggles and was getting wins so easily it was borderline unfair. considering i don't even play A-bison but can at least paint the fence, it's kinda scary to think of what a really experienced/smart player could do.

peace

[ragnafrak]

1. any a-groove character who has (a. dominating RCs, b. high damage CCs c. effective chip/GC CCs). IMO, if Honda had decent CC options he would probably be up there with blanka/sakura/bison.
2. sagat. any groove, with anyone else on his team, he doesnt need ANYTHING groove specific to win, anything he gets is just bonus.
3. blanka. same as sagat on the above, although he benefits highly from low jump, roll and run.
4. cammy. similar to sagat/blanka, top tier for the reason that her ground game consists of 4 of the most retarded normals in the game, c.MP, far s.HP, close s.HP, and far s.HK. perfect anti-air with or without meter, brain-dead easy play scheme which consists entirely of throwing these 4 moves at their appropriate ranges. only disadvantage is her lower than average life.
5. c-guile
6. n-chun
7. k-geese
8. p/k-kyo
9. n-iori
10. c/n-ken

[popoblo]

1. any a-groove character who has (a. dominating RCs, b. high damage CCs c. effective chip/GC CCs). IMO, if Honda had decent CC options he would probably be up there with blanka/sakura/bison.
2. sagat. any groove, with anyone else on his team, he doesnt need ANYTHING groove specific to win, anything he gets is just bonus.
3. blanka. same as sagat on the above, although he benefits highly from low jump, roll and run.
4. cammy. similar to sagat/blanka, top tier for the reason that her ground game consists of 4 of the most retarded normals in the game, c.MP, far s.HP, close s.HP, and far s.HK. perfect anti-air with or without meter, brain-dead easy play scheme which consists entirely of throwing these 4 moves at their appropriate ranges. only disadvantage is her lower than average life.
5. c-guile
6. n-chun
7. k-geese
8. p/k-kyo
9. n-iori
10. c/n-ken

how did this thread get revived?

only A-sakura can be ranked number one, not any character with those vague pre-reqs. sakura's RC's are good, her custom is good, but her STANDING ROUNDHOUSE is what makes her top tier. a quick, long ranged poke with excellent recovery that allows her to compete with the sagat's and blanka's of the world. everything else is icing on the cake. besides, by your logic, A-eagle is the best character in the game. he's high up there, but not quite the best. besides, honda has 2 really bad counter matches (hibiki and vega primarily, and eagle to a lesser extent), but he is still extremely good due to his high damage output, abusable RC's, massive vitality, and nearly impenetrable defense.

anyway, you're kidding yourself if you think any groove cammy is rated 4th. P/K ONLY could be considered that high, and that's still a pretty big stretch. a huge disadvantage of cammy's game is that she's TOO straightforward and braindead. i'm sure viscant will agree with me on this one, but people are so used to saying cammy is top tier when they're not looking at how the game has evolved. cammy will still crush most mid tier characters, but her matches against the top tier aren't nearly as lop-sided. answer me this- how many cammy's were in the final 8 at evo? none, not a single one. you can't base too much off that, but it is worth mentioning.

A-bison not in the top 10? doesn't seem right. where's vega? honestly, cvs2 is too difficult to rank linearly like mvc2 or 3S because the different grooves change the characters dramatically (but different assist types and super arts don't have such a dramatic effect).

and although people don't want to put in the work, N-XXX/sagat/R2 blanka COULD be one of the top tier teams in this game. i can only really mention tokido as someone who follows this structure, but whatever.

peace

PS- hey viscant, any new developments or trends you're seeing in cvs2 during evo or afterwards?

[Ken34]

I think K-Sak is good, everyone mentions A-Sak, but K-Sak is REALLY good, get em in a corner and rush em to death with shimpu kyak and pokes...
obviously blanka and sagat are top tier, A-Ken is top tier as well...

[Mr. Sakuraba]

I totally disagree with A-ken being tops. He is high mid at best. I just dont think he has the damage output to deal with other top characters like sagat and blanka. He cant really do damage from far away so and ground game while good, is not top tier caliber.

[popoblo]

A-ken isn't top tier, not even close. and K-sakura isn't that hot either.

[ilikebeingalive]

p-geese
k-rock
a-vega
n-iori
c-honda
s-athena

[Rioting Soul]

What is K-Vega's level? Doesn't Rage give the highest stamina and damage bonus? These two statistics seem to be where Vega normally fails. The only setback I see is K-Vega not being able to sit on his meter like P-Vega.

[Violent Requiem]

Hey Popo,

Here's what I understand about N groove, because it seems to be good, except the damage output isn't nearly as high as C or A, which is why people don't use it right?

Anyways, I'm not too worried about top tier, just viability?

What are the VIABLE characters in CvS2, that can in some way compete and be successful?

I'm kind of leaning torwards wanting to play Ken, what would be a good groove/team for Ken? Either C or N right? Ken/Sagat/Blanka isn't something I want to play really. :P I like Hibiki but I hear she has so many bad matches these days...

Maybe Ken/XXX/Blanka or Ken/XXX/Sagat?

-R

PS: Where did PMs go?

[CapMaster]

Where does C-Hibiki stand? When I played CVS2 seriously, I always thought C was her 2nd best groove cause she can turtle in it and sit on a level 3 super. I think it's way better then K or N for her...

[js2756]

Hey Popo,
I'm kind of leaning torwards wanting to play Ken, what would be a good groove/team for Ken? Either C or N right? Ken/Sagat/Blanka isn't something I want to play really. :P I like Hibiki but I hear she has so many bad matches these days...

Maybe Ken/XXX/Blanka or Ken/XXX/Sagat?

-R


If you're playing in C, Guile would be a good fit for either team. Chun would also be good in either C or N.

[RyanTheRobot]

Where is the big man love?
E.Honda and Zangief are both powerhouses and good in any team and any situation.

[Saotome99]

If it was just the snk fighting, who would be the top 7 tier characters?

I've seen lots of Geese players so I'm assuming he's probably one of them?

[caliagent#3]

Hey Popo,

Here's what I understand about N groove, because it seems to be good, except the damage output isn't nearly as high as C or A, which is why people don't use it right?

Anyways, I'm not too worried about top tier, just viability?

What are the VIABLE characters in CvS2, that can in some way compete and be successful?

I'm kind of leaning torwards wanting to play Ken, what would be a good groove/team for Ken? Either C or N right? Ken/Sagat/Blanka isn't something I want to play really. :P I like Hibiki but I hear she has so many bad matches these days...

Maybe Ken/XXX/Blanka or Ken/XXX/Sagat?

-R

PS: Where did PMs go?


Defense is N-grooves biggest problem. Second only to S-groove. All the other grooves have better defensive options. You can't make to many mistakes in N-groove, you need to have a very fine tuned offense to make it work properly.

[popoblo]

Violent Requiem

no, damage output has nothing to do with the reason people don't play N-groove. go read jchensor's cvs2 FAQ on www.gamefaqs.com to get the FACTS about N-groove, because there are too many myths floating around about it. you want to know why people don't use N-groove? IT' TOO MUCH WORK. it's as simple as that. read viscant's N-groove team analysis on page 7. experiment with characters, and then you'll find out viability. who would've though N-iori/morrigan/hibiki could do well in tournies? it just takes more dedication to make N-groove good. N-XXX/sagat/r2 blanka is a beastly fucking team. what you need to realize is that N-groove has run and short jump, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need to rush down. just play patient and use N-groove's strengths (most notably counter roll). yes, N-groove ken is good, you just have to experiment.

caliagent#3

that makes absolutely no sense, like at all. how does N-groove have weak defense? no air block? air block isn't as essential as you think. N-groove has alpha counters AND COUNTER ROLLS. that honestly makes no sense, please try and clarify.

[epsilon_]

A Groove has less defensive options than N. Top SNK Chars?

N Iori, ANK Hibiki (C is pretty good for a battery though), P/K Kyo, K Geese, CNK Yamazaki, K Rock, N Vice (mhmm), and I think Raiden is good so I'm gonna say K Raiden :p.

[box]

Top SNK people imo.

Mai
Iori
Hibiki
Rock
Geese
Kyo
Joe
Todo

[caliagent#3]

Violent Requiem
caliagent#3

that makes absolutely no sense, like at all. how does N-groove have weak defense? no air block? air block isn't as essential as you think. N-groove has alpha counters AND COUNTER ROLLS. that honestly makes no sense, please try and clarify.

What i mean are it's defensive tactics, all it has is counter movment and counter attack. Other grooves have WAY more powerful defensive options. A-groove has CC activation which is possibly one of the best defensive options you can have. C-groove has air block, LVL 3's to sit on, and counter attack. Have you ever fought a person who was really good, and i mean really good with "chicken" blocking? annoying as fuck to play against. P-groove has parry and k-groove has jd. All of which are great defensive options. Defense isn't all about blocking, and i'm sure you know this. 3 of the grooves i mentioned have defensive options that require no use of super meter, which is a definite edge (remember this is cvs2, game of turtles). A-groove just activate to blow right through any thing, while in N-groove you have to use counter movement, or counter attack to relieve pressure. You can't sit on lvl 3's either in n-groove so that's another draw back to it's defensive abilities. The only good non meter usage defensive option for N-groove is to RC, and no one is 100%.

[Mycah Leonhart]

N-Vega, Kim, KyoR2

O.K. Thoughts on this team?