SFA3 for evo tourney!!!

[BigJoe]

They can have super street fighter 2 for the tourney but why not SFA3? anyone knows why?!?!?!?! someone tell me why!!!!

[margalis]

The reason is this: nobody plays A3.

Lot's of people complain, lot's of people whine, but nobody plays it.

One of the Cannon's made a good point in another thread: There was a time when both 3S and A3 were on their way out. But the 3S people got together and made 3S popular by force of will.

All that comes out of the A3 camp is excuses. None of the console versions are good enough to play, and they don't have any boards, or any organizational skills...

The A3 crowd appears to be very unmotivated, and the game appears to be dead. There aren't many local tournies for it, so why should there be a national one.

The resurgence of 3S illustrates that players do have the power. But the A3 players choose not to use that power. That's their fault and nobody elses.

[Xenozip.]

AFAIK; SFA3 hasn't been at Evo since 2k2.

On top of that, Evo went console, which all but seals the fate of SFA3 not being at Evo.

[Apoc]

The reason is this: nobody plays A3.

Lot's of people complain, lot's of people whine, but nobody plays it.

One of the Cannon's made a good point in another thread: There was a time when both 3S and A3 were on their way out. But the 3S people got together and made 3S popular by force of will.

All that comes out of the A3 camp is excuses. None of the console versions are good enough to play, and they don't have any boards, or any organizational skills...

The A3 crowd appears to be very unmotivated, and the game appears to be dead. There aren't many local tournies for it, so why should there be a national one.

The resurgence of 3S illustrates that players do have the power. But the A3 players choose not to use that power. That's their fault and nobody elses.

Nobody plays A3 because Evo won't represent it. That's a fact. Hell, I just got a pm from an Australian player saying that A3 died there because Evo dropped it as well. Australian organizers follow what they see here too. SRK wants to ignore their responsibility in the death of the A3 scene, blameshifting, and putting it on the players as if SRK is THAT dumb and doesn't notice its' influence.

Let's just make this clear. 3s DID NOT have a resurgeance. It was received very poorly by Americans(rightfully so, imo). At the time of EVo2k2, ONLY A3 had enjoyed a strong tourney following. 3s was dissed and dropped within the first 6mos.

So, 3s was an unexplored and "New" game for Americans. A3 had a long run of being on top EVEN when 3s was new. The only reason 3s got popular was because we needed another game. We also got our asses kicked by Japan at the b5 and Evo2k2 exhibitions. Ppl were unsatisfied with cvs2 so, that was the closest thing to new and the game hadn't had a tourney following yet.

This life that 3s has is its' first life. Players thought the game was wack when it first appeared. There was a shift in the scene as players left the scene and newer players came in.

That's it, that's all it was. Oh! and the fact that Evo supports it again. 3s would've died just like A3 EVEN with a console port had Evo kept dissing it.

Really, this fake "3s resugeance" is nothing more than an excuse for not having A3. It's clear that A3 has more things stacked against it. Funny how it outshined 3s even when 3s was new when it didn't even have a reliable homeport EVER.

Fact is, A3 and 3s are totally different games that appeal to ppl for different reasons. A3 would NEVER have died had their been a console port. Without arcades, no one could practice and without representation at Evo, what was the point? I love the game and even I dropped it. Anyway, decisions like this, regarding Evo, is EXACTLY what separates the scene and makes it smaller while they're adding games to compensate. They don't even notice that they've been counter-productive. It boggles my mind that this fact is missed by SRK staff but the average SFer that's been around for years can understand it EVEN if they don't particularly like A3.

Now they're dividing the scene even further by separating console from arcade standards instead of finding a way to make them work together.

SRK took the ball and ran with it...and then fumbled all over the place.

When A3 is back in the mix and EVERYone can play on their controls 100%, THEN SF will get healthy again. Ignoring these things only serves to make Evo a meaningless geekfest.

At this point, I wouldn't care if there was never another Evo. It isn't for the players and it's solely for certain egos. No one else is losing much seeing as how we can adopt another tourney to travel to each year to meet up and save the summer for other things.

If anyone else had the resources that SRK does, at this point, another tourney, done for the players, would crush Evo. But it's like business, even if the ideas are poor, those with the ability to market and make things happen, even shitty things, will be more successful. It's only a matter of time before the real community pops up with something really for the players and then Evo is going to be laughed at dissed since they seemed to have forgotten what makes a tourney respectable, like 100% working controls.

I'll say it again. A3/ST/3s/CvS2/MvC2 players should know that there will always be a place for them regardless of whether or not Capcom is releasing good fighters. Those games are PROVEN worthy. Instead Evo is going to support the newest games whether they are respectable or not. Let's face it, Capcom is throwing their ideas together because they ran out of good NEW ones. So, it's a strong possibility that we've seen the last quality games from Capcom.

Sadly, A3 is one of the FIGHTING games and not the boring runaway games. Having A3 would just get the crowd into a fight mode whereas some games, lately, leave you wanting to take a nap until the last round. Even 3s isn't as in your face as A3 is. And you don't have NEARLY as much guessing like we're seeing nowadays. It actually depends more on how good you are and not whether you guess right or not. Bummer. Who wants a solid game like that at Evo?

Nothing can offer what A3 can offer. Therefore, it has to be there. There is no other game picking up the slack in the quality department. We get to see a ton of guessing in MvC2(be honest. Wong lost to Soo because he guessed wrong hella times in a row. He failed to GUESS properly) and 3s and a bunch of runaway in CvS2. It'd be nice to see what a fight without guessing and without runaway being the dominant tactic. Afterall, these are FIGHTING games. A3 fits that bill more than anything right now. It's a shame it isn't represented. Evo doesn't respect the games because of their merits so, Evo is going to lose respect for this issue, more and more, as time goes by and other games get dropped for newer and lesser games.

It'd be damned smart NOT to drop anymore capcom games.

Apoc.

[Mouko]

As much as this sounds like a fantasy, I have a feeling capcom is going to release a real port of a3 (like with 3s) in some sort of collection disc (maybe all the alphas?). My reasoning? The GBA version of upper was said to be made under the direction of a capcom employee who's favorite game was a3, so he plopped the original engine (with crouch cancels, old otg timing and all) into the little cart.

Hopefully enough people will lobby for it in japan, as a3 is still a favorite among a lot of players there and when that happens, maybe we'll see a3 back in evo.

[Muskau]

I don't think EVO is the sole reason for A3 not being played as a tourney game anymore. I think there are more factors to take into account, such as the interest in 3S the Japanese players caused in EVO, Daigo retiring from the A3 scene(and taking alot of the top players with him), SBO not putting A3 on their list of games, the amount of knowledge needed to play intimidates a lot of beginners, and the fact there is no recent japan daigo/chikyuu/etc... footage to inspire players.

In my opinion I just think EVO is just trying to follow japan more and more in what games should be played and what games shouldn't.

And Australia never had an A3 scene, it just never got going because of all of the reasons I listed above. Before A3 there were quite a few A2 tourneys out there, but when A3 came out, it had much the same reaction to it as 3S did, most players were confused by the complicated new juggle system and the amount of options available to them. I think it's only after all these years of casual play, and being able to get access to old tourney footage and FAQ's that has allowed many players to stop being afraid of V-ism. At my arcade it was 5 years after A3 was released before anyone decided to try to learn how to use V-ism properly.

[shadowcharlie]

i belive strongly hommie apoc is right, he sometimes may seem very negative towards things but im sure its from passion for the SF scene.
theres always been an undertow of negativity from the "powers that be" for as long as iv been here. its not too difficult to obstruct the resurgence of a game in certain places when u have the right tools. granted this is not the entire reason for the downfall of the a3 scene.
i belive one of the key problems is that the game never got the ball rolling outside of hots spot(at that point in time) for the game; cali, new england ect. without a strong initiative and organized push that 3s and ggxx both were given, later, as one may note since 3s even though released around the same time as a3, didnt get backing till way later.
by this time a3 had almost a non existing base because on lack of machines that, contrary to what people may say were not that plentiful to begin with and with no steady home port( the port makes a very big fuckin difference playing that game, i personally know this since for years iv played psx port and how it hadicaps arcade play is retarded.)even the ports amogst themselves! seem like night and day, look at the saturn port next to the dc port, or even the psx to a lesser extent. alot of very specific things were taken out or changed, for a3 thats a really big deal.
unless
1 there is an updated port
2 some form of backing by a powerful alley
a3 will never return to a tourney lvl game even on a semi national lvl.
when was the last time u had a tourney for it with more then 30 people? and where? id love to move there =/
i think that srk setting standards after whats played in japan a bit too much, vf4 evo anyone >=/

[KXC]

I agree with Apoc also I used to play A3 alot but when it died from SRK forums and Evo I just didn't look at it anymore.
3S is a great game. Now america is learning and we have a strong rival with Japan which is going to keep it alive for a while.So you honestly need to give up A3 and look for a new fighter. I hate to throw the name up but even BAHN got tierd of it. I think loosing a match to a noob with his own CHUN-LI at Shadowman had something to do with it but still he quit and moved on to a new system of fighting games such as CVS2 3S and a little of MVC2.

[Seerd]

There needs to be standardization of A3 on some console for it to have a chance. i.e. People agree to use the PSX version, OR figure out a way to play the arcade version on dreamcast. Modded Xbox is not the answer.

[margalis]

Blah blah blah...

These are the facts:
Neither 3S nor A3 was an Evo tourney game at one point.
Now 3S is.
A3 still isn't.

Think about why. A lot of people complained about 3S, and a lot of people complained about A3. Nothing changed. Then, people started playing 3S, organizing their own tournies, etc. Remember originally the Cannon's were very opposed to having 3S at Evo.

The A3 people never got past the whining stage, which you guys have just confirmed. Stop crying already. It's pathetic.

Why wasn't there an informal A3 tourney at Evo? Because you guys would rather cry than do anything. Oh well...there's no crying in SF.

The people dropping the ball here are Apoc and company. You've done NOTHING to make A3 more popular. Nothing constructive has ever come out of any of your complaining.

ST wasn't very popular for a while, then there was a Vega gathering and things snowballed from there. Just stop talking and do something, or else give up. Seriously. Have your own A3 tournament. You don't have time? But you have time to post 100 page long essays on the subject...

[shadowcharlie]

yeah yeah organize our on tourneys....oh wait on what? no arcade cabs for miles theres no fuckin alternative to arcade, only now x box give a semi solid run of the arcade. back then it wasnt around. a3 wasnt run at evo because there was an issue of some people wanting it be free entry others wanted cash prizes, one of them being daigo.....its not that people didn t try or have a board setup...
the things u refer to as whining is just statement of facts, people need to stop tryn to shift shit to the player scene making it seem like its only because of their supposed lack of effort things dont happen, thats plain bullshit.

[Muskau]

Didn't Sabre and B-izm bring those A3 Superguns to EVO2k4?

[Ukyo Tachibana]

Wait, if there aren't that any more arcades that have it, why are you guys still whining about it? Why blame SRK for this?

It's not about you guys "not having resources", or SRK "neglecting" the A3 scene. You guys have been spoonfed and Jason Wilson even organized an A3 tourney for you guys (since none of you seem interested at organizing it yourselves) at MWC and you didn't show. So much for "not having resouces" and SRK "neglecting" the A3 scene, eh?

Something "outside" of EVO (like that 3S tourney at FF) could've been organized. But did that happen? No.

I mean no offense to anyone, especially A3 players. I'm more or less a scrub so what I say will probably have no bearing. I like A3 too, but the way it's going right now, nothing is going to happen. You guys only have one way out. If you guys want something to happen, don't expect it to fall on your laps. Spend more of your time organizing your own tourneys to revitalize the A3 scene (if Sabre/B-Izm bringing A3 superguns at EVO was true, then something could've happened out of that), instead of spending too much time whining about it with endless paragraphs on the internet.

[Vintage]

There needs to be standardization of A3 on some console for it to have a chance. i.e. People agree to use the PSX version, OR figure out a way to play the arcade version on dreamcast. Modded Xbox is not the answer.


The truth right there. Plain & simple. The fact of the matter is, the A3 scene had a choice between playing 95-98%accurate ports or nothing. They chose nothing and yet their is still discontent. If you want A3 so badly, choose a console version to be the official standard. I realize it's not the same as the arcade, but, at this point what do you have to lose?

Best case scenario: Scene is reborn
Worst case scenario: nothing changes

[Xenozip.]

Agreed.

Give me a port for A3 that doesn't make me want to vomit, and I will give you local tournies.

Wait, if there aren't that any more arcades that have it, why are you guys still whining about it? Why blame SRK for this?
*snip*
We're not blaming the cannons/SRK. We're blaming capcom for making shitty ports.


Fact is, A3 and 3s are totally different games that appeal to ppl for different reasons. A3 would NEVER have died had their been a console port. Without arcades, no one could practice and without representation at Evo, what was the point? I love the game and even I dropped it.

*snip*

Apoc.
Read what Apoc is saying, because he's right.

[lomo the kid]

Hello.
I wanted to add my comment on this. We here in Germany still play this game in our tournaments. We had a tournament during march with Alpha 3 on the line up. We had a tournament some week ago and we had Alpha included. Know what? We play on DC. We say that it's better then nothing. Ok, since the most european countries didn't had arcade at all, we don't miss the difference to the arcade version so much like you guys. But trust me, playing Alpha 3 on DC is better than letting it die.

I think Apoc is right with his post. Evo dropped A3 and this pretty much killed the A3 scene everywhere. And of course this had influences on Europe too. The few players say, if evo doesn't have it, then let's focus on a game that is supported by evo. Sure it's not the only reason, but its the main reason...they are some kind of short minded. Thinking that only game on evo are tournament worthy games, but that's not the fact.

And Alpha really is such a great game! I really hope that Capcom gives us a new console port of A3 that is arcade perfect. Just like they did with 3rd Strike on Ps2 and XboX. But even if they don't do this port, then we still can play the DC or Psx version! I think that germany is one of the last european countries that plays Alpha 3 regulary on his tournies. I think that we aren't so strongly influenced by other things like the evo for example. If we have A3 tournament and some nice people show up, then we will have another A3 tournament, and another...we just don't say:"Hey, everybody is quitting A3, we have to follow!"

Thanks for reading this! =)

[Vintage]

Agreed.

Give me a port for A3 that doesn't make me want to vomit, and I will give you local tournies.




You already have 2 ports...it's called the PSX & DC version. If those two don't suffice for you, then let A3 die already.

[FMJaguar]

Give me a port for A3 that doesn't make me want to vomit, and I will give you local tournies.

We don't control that, hense this entire discussion =P. However local tournies could probably get away with putting it on xbox. I'm sure you know what i mean.

We're not blaming the cannons/SRK. We're blaming capcom for making shitty ports.

Actually, someone is...

Read what Apoc is saying, because he's right.

If you did, you'd know that your two points directly contradict each other.

I don't know what the big deal is about A3 anyway... just let me play apoc, winner(aka me) will lose to choi, winner will lose to jpn V-akuma/sagat , we all go home satisfied, the end.

[Xenozip.]

All I said was give me a console version that DIDN'T suck and I'll give you local tournies. DC and PSX versions are crap.

I wasn't asking anyone here to literally make a better version. I'm just stating that currently there aren't any cabinets around, and the console versions all suck.

I know the people in this thread have no controll over what Capcom does or does not do.

If Capcom were to release a better console version, then there might be some room for progress.

However local tournies could probably get away with putting it on xbox. I'm sure you know what i mean.
That's the kind of alternative I'm looking for, thank you.

However, some one already stated that using a modded Xbox with an emulator isn't really a good answer. I don't have any experiance with modded xbox's myself, but I've heard the same opinions about it from several people.

I'd like to know why. I'm not really sure what the specific complaints are.

Is it a software issue or hardware issue?

Actually, someone is...
Oh, excuse me.

I must have skipped over the part where some one said "It's the Cannon's/SRK's fault".

I don't like putting words in other peoples mouths. What I took from his post was "A3 wouldn't have died if it had a decent console port", which I agree with.

[margalis]

You are NOT blaming Capcom. Apoc has not written 50 pages of text blaming Capcom. What does SRK have to even DO with Capcom? Do you guys think SNK is a subsidiary of Capcom?

If the problem is Capcom, stop complaining here, complain to Capcom instead.

The bottom line is, nothing constructive is happening. Blaming Capcom, blaming SRK, you don't have enough time to throw a tourney, you don't want to go to a console tourney, blah blah blah...so what's your point?

You guys should have a goal of actually ACCOMPLISHING something, other than bitching endlessly.

[Xenozip.]

You are NOT blaming Capcom.
Way to assume what I am or am not doing.

I blame Capcom.

There, satisfied?

Apoc has not written 50 pages of text blaming Capcom. What does SRK have to even DO with Capcom? Do you guys think SNK is a subsidiary of Capcom?

If the problem is Capcom, stop complaining here, complain to Capcom instead.
This is a discussion forum designed for people to discuss opinions. As far as I know, discussion about things tend to help the community by inspiring motivation and change.

Isn't that why we're even discussing all of this?

Whining and bitching about issues is the first step. Then comes support for change. Then comes change.

The bottom line is, nothing constructive is happening. Blaming Capcom, blaming SRK, you don't have enough time to throw a tourney, you don't want to go to a console tourney, blah blah blah...so what's your point?

You guys should have a goal of actually ACCOMPLISHING something, other than bitching endlessly.
Who is this statement directed to? Me?

I don't sit around bitching endlessly. I DO have enough time to throw a tounrey, and already stated that I would throw one if I had a good A3 port. When did I say I wouldn't go to a console tourney (I'm going to one in Sept.)?

I'd love an alternative, just give me one. I can't just magically make a viable alternative on my own that everyone agrees with.. Not in my power to do.

You must be confusing me with some one else. I spend my time on SRK talking about A3 strategy and combos, and just recently I released an A3 combo/trick vid, the rest of the time I loiter in image mishmash and general discussion. I'm not here to bash SRK or Capcom. Not like you care, I'm just saying you got me all wrong.

In fact, this is the first "why isn't A3 at Evo" thread I've participated in.

[Edit]: Suppose this thread dies because YOU said it isn't accomplishing anything. I suppose that's going to accomplish a whole lot, too?

Let people bitch if they want.

[Vintage]

Assuming that A3 isn't re-released, if the A3 Community doesn't decide on either the DC or PSX version to become the new standard, it's dead. And quite frankly, it will not receive any sympathy from me. Seriously, you guys have 2 ports that albeit are not completely perfect, but are very playable and are in fact quite accurate. Heck, even the guy from Germany just said that they've been playing A3 on DCs. Yet, this community is too stubborn to pick something over nothing. Well guess what? If nothing is what you consistently choose, then nothing is what you will always end up with.

[Xenozip.]

Assuming that A3 isn't re-released, if the A3 Community doesn't decide on either the DC or PSX version to become the new standard, it's dead. And quite frankly, it will not receive any sympathy from me. Seriously, you guys have 2 ports that albeit are not completely perfect, but are very playable and are in fact quite accurate. Heck, even the guy from Germany just said that they've been playing A3 on DCs. Yet, this community is too stubborn to pick something over nothing. Well guess what? If nothing is what you consistently choose, then nothing is what you will always end up with.

Read:

That's the kind of alternative I'm looking for, thank you.

However, some one already stated that using a modded Xbox with an emulator isn't really a good answer. I don't have any experiance with modded xbox's myself, but I've heard the same opinions about it from several people.

I'd like to know why. I'm not really sure what the specific complaints are.

Is it a software issue or hardware issue?
I'm willing to accept modded Xbox if it's viable.

I read that there were problems with Mame. Isn't there alternative emulators that could be used with a modded xbox?

What exactly are the issues?

[Vintage]

Modded Xbox & viable don't go together. You would think that that would be a viable option on a place like SRK. Hardly. While it is true that SRK does feature individuals who can wire a stick to an Intellivision, it also does feature guys who don't know how to play import games on DCs & PSXs. You don't know how many times I was asked the following question during evo: "Hey, how is it that you are able to play AE on your PS2?"

If playing imports is a tall order as it is, I don't want to even imagine the kind of headaches modding would bring.

With all that being said, I ask the "scene" again, "something, or nothing?"

[Muskau]

Here are the issues with the versions.

The Arcade board no longer made and never had much of a distribution in the first place. And therefore rare.

The Saturn version, while probably the most accurate home port, is hard to come by. As well as the Sega Saturn itself. I have no knowledge on what differences this version had though.

The PSX version has frame loss, priority, and VC activation invincibility differences at the least.

The DC version has priority differences, juggle differences, etc, basically I think of it as SFA3 Upper Beta.

An Emulated version would be viable to play, but its deemed as illegal to use in a tournament. Although if someone owned the Arcade board as well, could you not get past this easily?

All of this comes together to add another problem to the SFA3 scene, I swear it must be cursed.

[FMJaguar]

You must be confusing me with some one else. I spend my time on SRK talking about A3 strategy and combos, and just recently I released an A3 combo/trick vid, the rest of the time I loiter in image mishmash and general discussion. I'm not here to bash SRK or Capcom. Not like you care, I'm just saying you got me all wrong.

Actually you have the discussion wrong, you came in defending someone without reading the whole post, if you had, you would understand where these points are coming from, namely:

Nobody plays A3 because Evo won't represent it.

-------------------

In fact, this is the first "why isn't A3 at Evo" thread I've participated in.

Welcome to hell.

Suppose this thread dies because YOU said it isn't accomplishing anything. I suppose that's going to accomplish a whole lot, too?

Let people bitch if they want.

This forum can't accomplish a lot on its own. The people who actually want to go accomplish things go do something about the discussion that is here.

Sure the community saved 3s (and ST to some degree), but i think they were able to because they were on DC. Kind of ironic that hating on console is what killed arcade A3.

Its just an unfortunate situtation, I don't see what the resolution is, or how any of the proposed solutions would help the situation. The whining and bitching are going to people who have no power to change the real cause of the problem. In fact it's actaully building a backlash against A3 in the community that just adds another obstacle to it's success.

I don't nessecarily want to stop people from bitching at all, but people sometimes take a lot of liberty with thier bitching, and draw some conclusions that don't make sense.

[FMJaguar]

An Emulated version would be viable to play, but its deemed as illegal to use in a tournament. Although if someone owned the Arcade board as well, could you not get past this easily?

Not easily, we use a lot of explanations to justify emulation amongst ourselves, but in reality if a company wants to pay a lawyer to stop you from doing it, your not in a great position to argue with them.

[Xenozip.]

Actually you have the discussion wrong, you came in defending someone without reading the whole post, if you had, you would understand where these points are coming from, namely:
Ok, that's where the mix-up occurs.

I just quoted a part of his post that I agreed with. I wasn't defending him or his whole post. I'm pretty sure Apoc is capable of doing that for himself.

I don't "take sides" in discussions like these. All I was saying was I found part of Apoc's post to be quite valid and agreed with it.

Namely, this part:


Fact is, A3 and 3s are totally different games that appeal to ppl for different reasons. A3 would NEVER have died had their been a console port. Without arcades, no one could practice and without representation at Evo, what was the point? I love the game and even I dropped it.

-------------

So, from that statement (which I agree with), how did you come to the conclusion that I also agreed with every part of his post?

Like I said before: "Oh, excuse me. I must have skipped over the part where some one said "It's the Cannon's/SRK's fault". ".. Which admittedly, I did skip.

Sure the community saved 3s (and ST to some degree), but i think they were able to because they were on DC. Kind of ironic that hating on console is what killed arcade A3.

Its just an unfortunate situtation, I don't see what the resolution is, or how any of the proposed solutions would help the situation. The whining and bitching are going to people who have no power to change the real cause of the problem. In fact it's actaully building a backlash against A3 in the community that just adds another obstacle to it's success.
It's not the console, it's Capcom who made a shitty port. It's the shitty port itself. I find it hard to believe that the console itself is what killed A3.

It is an unfortunate situation, indeed.

And you expect us to be somehow different? We don't see the resolution either. That gets people upset. Of corse that leads to bitching.

A situation we're not able to fix... It's only natural to be upset about it. People need to vent, you know.

I mean, you're sitting here telling us to get off our asses, take action, and fix things. HOW? You yourself don't have the answer, and neither do we.

It's hard to get up out of my seat and change things, when I don't know how to change things. I'm at least trying to find the answer by talking about it, though.

[shadowcharlie]

people that say that the dc psx ports are 95% 98% accurate obviously dont know anything about the game, thus shouldnt comment on something they know little about.
the argument comes full circle over, "its the fault of __ __ ___" to which is given
the counter:"oh if u quit whining and do something like organize your own tourneys it would blah blah blah"
yeah the scene was spoonfed because mwc, one whole fuckin tourney had a3. there is no disrespect for wilson here or for the idea of it but saying that its spoon feeding when its fockin 2004 and it s one major not a regional or a monthly, wow yes ur right how could all the a3 players not show up in full force to the midwest for one tourney and totallly restart the scene off nothing, years after the scene lost its pulse.....i hope ur joking. the mere fact a3 was there is a godsend.
not putting effort into tourneys is an unfair statement i put up cash out of my pocket at ts4 this year for top a3 finish and talked about it on the boards to generate people , yeah we had about 20 people, what the regular (sadly) turn out for a major with a3 in it is at best. things are too far gone to just "oh hold more tourneys on your own"
no one is bitchin what this regards is just a detailed explanation into why there wasnt a3 evo. and people tryn to say contrary. .
PS playing dc version means one thing, ur not playing a3 ur playing a dc game with the same name thats it.just drop this.

[Vintage]

It's not even about whether or not the game is exactly accurate. It's more about is it (the console versions) comprable (for the most part) to the arcade. The old skool scene (CE-SSF2, maybe even ST) is fairly small as well. If for whatever reason at the next Evo "The Powers That Be" decided to run the game on 3D0, I would still be happy. Heck, some old skool is better than no old skool. I think the A3 scene is lacking perspective on this matter. You speak as if you guys don't even have any choices. The truth is you do->granted, those choices may not be to your liking completely, but they are choices nonetheless. But since this debate will obviously never end, I say, if the scene wont even CONSIDER taking the path Lomo alluded to, well...they have quite a dilemma on their hands.

[Ghost_Salieri]

It is not comparable.
It's like shadowcharlie says...people want to play Street Fighter Alpha 3, not that game on the PSX/DC which is aesthetically similar.

[Buttermaker]

Give me a port for A3 that doesn't make me want to vomit, and I will give you local tournies.
Use a PC with TV-out.

[N-Ken]

Not easily, we use a lot of explanations to justify emulation amongst ourselves, but in reality if a company wants to pay a lawyer to stop you from doing it, your not in a great position to argue with them.


First off, Capcom could give two shits about the entire scene, they could care less whether we're using emulators or not on a 7 year old game that they practically forgot they made.

2nd, if someone had a board with them, EVEN if someone tried to get you for emulating it, they would hardly have legal ground to stand on. You are granted a license to use the game when you buy it(aka the board). If you make a backup of that game to your PC, as long as you aren't using both at the same time(both emulated and actual board) it is legal. Now they might be able to get you on the fact that if you downloaded it instead of ripping it that you are in actuality operating off of someone elses board(the og rip) but that's even IF you downloaded it. Now, to actually get in legal trouble for this if you have a board with you is practically statistically insignificant, and has so many nested "what if" scenarios it should probably be disregarded.

Now, as I see it there are four options for the majority of the US for A3 tournaments: Console Versions(not bloody likely), Supergun(this COULD work if someone had the equipment) PC Emulation(The Video solution is not easy to solve, short of Component it's hard to get a decent picture to a TV, and monitors are relatively impractical, a digital projector would work but I don't know many who personally own one, my dad does though) or Xbox emulation(assuming the emu works full speed and there are no other related issues, this is probably the most practical but is also quite likely illegal from the MS side, all emulation and pretty much anything aside from Linux hacked the MS SDK, hence all useful Modded Xbox operation is illegal. And Unlike Capcom, MS likes to find people to make martyr's for emulation, it's still unlikely legal action would follow, but of any solution this is by far the most dangerous)

I'd say even with the dangers Xbox is probably the most viable, then for something like evo we could probably switch to PC emulation or Superguns.

[Seerd]

Modding an xbox messes up the xbox live connection, I'm told, which no one wants to do with the fighting games coming out now. Nobody has sticks to play on a saturn, even if they are crazy like me and actually own one. Emulated A3 is nice, but its usually illegal, and big tourneys with sponsors can't use it.

So, the tourney options are:

1) Use PSX/DC version and let people complain/quit
2) convince people to invest in Superguns for an old game (unrealistic, really)

So, if you want A3 to have a national scene, its time to decide. Console, or nothin?

edit: I suppose you could petition Capcom to release an arcade perfect port for xbox with live support, but that would take time.

[N-Ken]

Modding an xbox messes up the xbox live connection, I'm told, which no one wants to do with the fighting games coming out now. Nobody has sticks to play on a saturn, even if they are crazy like me and actually own one. Emulated A3 is nice, but its usually illegal, and big tourneys with sponsors can't use it.


Modding an Xbrick DOES NOT mess up a live connection, and hasn't for like the last year. Almost every current chip has a switch to turn it on/off, as long as you are never stupid enough to try to access Live while your chip is on, you're fine.

[Gandido]

It is not comparable.
It's like shadowcharlie says...people want to play Street Fighter Alpha 3, not that game on the PSX/DC which is aesthetically similar.


True.

And I can tell you like Warmen. =P

[Temujin]

I think apoc is right.. if evo had A3 in the lineup people would play it.

At T5 we put in A3 and 20 people joined. 3S and MvC2 had about 30 people, and CVS2 something like 40-50.

My opinion is that in a major tournament, most people join any game they can play. And we can all agree that most CVS2 and 3S players know how to play A3 to a certain extent.

I firmly believe if they suddenly introduce A3 in the lineup at evo there will be 100+ players.. and I'm being modest. There's no question there will be more players than VF4 and Tekken.

I have data to support this from the T5 tournament, and I guess you can say that tournament was us backing up some of our whining.

As far as I'm concerned the only issue is the console port.

[Seerd]

Modding an Xbrick DOES NOT mess up a live connection, and hasn't for like the last year. Almost every current chip has a switch to turn it on/off, as long as you are never stupid enough to try to access Live while your chip is on, you're fine.

Well then, I suggest someone gets on the ball with this, and starts a drive to get people to do this, as everything else would appear to be a trainwreck waiting to happen.

If people can agree to arcade/xbox mod/pc emu/supergun for tournaments, then there needs to start being a push to get A3 going again, and not just complaining that Evo killed it. Its not gonna come back to Evo is people aren't playing.

edit: For example, somewhere with an Alpha 3 specific forum, a national ranking system via kalliera or whatever, an organized tournament calender with A3 events, etc. I'm not really a hardcore A3 player, so i dunno how much of this is working.

[FMJaguar]

I think apoc is right.. if evo had A3 in the lineup people would play it.

In what lineup? the lineup is console, what A3 is going to be announced?

I'm assuming your answer is supergun, but the whole point of the supergun was the special case that 3s was coming out for PS2 (hense why it was almost switched to PS2 at the last minute), AND people had insider knowledge that it would be close to the arcade. If they had not known this, I would assume it would have just been on DC as well. I don't think that exception would be made for A3, as it would create a situation where superguns were needed indefinately for a single game with little chance to grow outside of people playing 'just because it's there'.

[margalis]

A lot of 3D fighting players play on pads, why can't people play on Saturn pads?

I guess I don't see anything constructive happening here. There are options, the options include choosing a console version, rounding up people who own arcade boards, etc. Just complaining isn't an option.

Edit: If A3 was at Evo some people would play. Then again the same would be true of Evo had an official MK2 tourney, an XvSF tourney, etc. The question is is it worth the hassle, the organizational headaches, the resources, etc.

[FMJaguar]

Well to do pads would be kind of the opposite of BYOC. I wish I could use pads tho, it's a hell of a lot easier to carry around. I wonder if in time people will be just as good on pad or better than on stick, heck if that's gonna happen i'll jump the fence now and be ahead of the game =P.

The saturn issue is a good point. The first question is whether saturn is acceptable, 2nd question is whether there's a good ps2-> saturn convertor. then it's pretty much set. Over the next year i'm hoping some people will be willing to help solve the joystick issue, once those are made we just ensure that they are ps2 compatible, test for convertor lag, and be done with it.

[Xenozip.]

Use a PC with TV-out.
I think that's the best option I've heard yet.

Computer, TV, TV-out card, USB converter.

Matter of fact, there's a lot of net cafes around that already have tourneys. All that's needed is the USB converters and sticks for the players.

USB converters are cheap, and most people already have sticks. If not, they can use a USB pad, or a PS2 pad (with converter).

To me, this option sounds 100% viable.

Now the only problem is dealing with the legal system. As some one already pointed out, emu/roms aren't acceptable at tourneys.

Well to do pads would be kind of the opposite of BYOC. I wish I could use pads tho, it's a hell of a lot easier to carry around. I wonder if in time people will be just as good on pad or better than on stick, heck if that's gonna happen i'll jump the fence now and be ahead of the game =P.

The saturn issue is a good point. The first question is whether saturn is acceptable, 2nd question is whether there's a good ps2-> saturn convertor. then it's pretty much set. Over the next year i'm hoping some people will be willing to help solve the joystick issue, once those are made we just ensure that they are ps2 compatible, test for convertor lag, and be done with it.
The Saturn pad was the best pad for SF type games (IMO) with it's 6 button lay out. I actually liked those pads a lot.

Better than nothing, anyway.

[shadowcharlie]

if saturn could be setup for it...that would be great i mean it was setup this year just some things wernt done i think cause it was a bit underplanned and spur of the moment to a point.

[Muskau]

Well with the fact that EVO wants to go console and there is no viable console port (aside from MAYBE saturn) then the only way to go would be to have a laptop/PC emulation setup with converters to DC/PSX with DC/PSX Arcade sticks connected up. I've heard of asian tournaments do this. But over here in the west I suspect companies are much more anal about this sort of thing.

Maybe we should ask someone with some experience in law? To see if you can get away with it?

[Seerd]

Legally, if the venue/organization owned copies of the Alpha 3 board, they could probably escape any legal action against them. However, this wouldn't stop sponsors from threatening to withdraw if they didn't drop emulation from the bill. And that would be more than enough.

Sega Saturn: If you think it could work and would be acceptable, go for it.

edit: PSOne/PS2->Saturn Converter

http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=178&products_id=3463&

PSX/PS2 controller converters tend to dislike anything that isn't official Sony. There ARE saturn joysticks (good ones were made, I'm pretty sure), the trick is finding them.

[Muskau]

So basically, even if SFA3 tourneys started popping up of their own accord, EVO probably wouldnt even be able to have SFA3 since it seems next EVO is going to be all Console by the sound of it.

[Xenozip.]

So basically, even if SFA3 tourneys started popping up of their own accord, EVO probably wouldnt even be able to have SFA3 since it seems next EVO is going to be all Console by the sound of it.
Which is basically what I said in my first post in this thread.

"Evo went console, which all but seals the fate of SFA3 not being at Evo".

I highly doubt they will cater to the needs of the A3 community. And The A3 community doesn't seem interested in compromising. The Saturn version might be the only hope.

[N-Ken]

Well Superguns are an option, just need someone to bring it...

[shadowcharlie]

mind u thats only a big tourney solution
small local tourneys will HAVE to be on x box mods since saturnz are scares and copies of z3 are moreso.

[Thongboy Bebop]

Specially built modded Xbox cabinets could do it, provided they were cleared as "legal".

I'm down.

N

[The Prophitt]

A3 is only dead here in the US because there are too many MvC2 only players. When an MvC2 player sees A3 they are like "What?! Where are my uber broken characters!?". For the MvC2 players that got A3 love, we need more of them. That is why Japan is alive and kicking with A3, they got no MvC2 love. *Goes back to beasting in A3 and getting stompped in MvC2*

[Seerd]

Its about 2 years too late to playerhate on Marvel. The issue with a modded xbox and emulator is the copies of an arcade board that someone didn't pay for, not breaking the warranty on the xbox.

For A3 to be at Evo, the Saturn version looks to be the only way anyone would want to play it on console. What you play on at home doesn't matter. Things really don't look very good.

[Ponder]

A3 Tirade Deleted...

I'd just like to point out that you've lost our little bet(post here (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1655656#post1655656)).

Regardless, I'll give you a mark if you agree to stop complaining until you meet it. Get 64+ people to an A3 tournament and we'll consider adding it to the next Evo. (real people... don't just bring in people off the street and their girlfriends).
I will definately try and organize something to meet that criteria, if only for the consideration. I'll do it just because I honestly believe in the game and in its' future among hardcore fighting gamers.

You've got a deal, Tony. No more complaints about A3 until then :D

:lame:

[FMJaguar]

So basically, even if SFA3 tourneys started popping up of their own accord, EVO probably wouldnt even be able to have SFA3 since it seems next EVO is going to be all Console by the sound of it.

If any tournies are going to be 'popping up', they are going to be console themselves. The main issue is that we haven't even figured out how we would play A3 at all, much less at evo.

But to refocus the thread here, we have a possible solution, the question is: Is saturn A3 acceptable???? If so, then we're practically done, if not, then we can move on from there.

[CuellarEX]

Hey Ponder, if he gets his 64 man A3 tournament, I demand 64 man SFEX3 tournament damn you!

[FMJaguar]

I'll get 64 man MSH first!!!!

[margalis]

The Saturn version has some differences, for example I think Dhalsim is worse. But, it's still a good game, and still *basically* the same game. Maybe it's "good enough."

[FMJaguar]

The Saturn version has some differences, for example I think Dhalsim is worse. But, it's still a good game, and still *basically* the same game. Maybe it's "good enough."

Ok, everyone not named Cole speak on it!

[Xenozip.]

I'd just like to point out that you've lost our little bet(post here (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1655656#post1655656)).
So the A3 community gets penalized because Apoc lost a bet? :(

Or am I reading this bet wrong?

[Muskau]

I can't really make a call on Saturn version, since I've never played it. And just how many Saturns with A3 are floating around anyway? Would there be some sort of Saturn/DC/PSX converter to allow people to use their Arcade sticks?

[shadowcharlie]

the main question is how is the speed setting next to arcade and is it missing sprite animations like the psx version because i feel that its safe to say:
saturn
/
/
psx
//
//
//
dc

[inkblot]

So the A3 community gets penalized because Apoc lost a bet? :(

Or am I reading this bet wrong?

Well, the bet wasn't the only criteria that A3 could be added to Evo. Ponder was just trying to get Apoc to stop whining all over SRK. Apoc is lame because he's going back on his word -- continuing to complain after he said he wouldn't.

The A3 community isn't getting penalized. A3 is held to the same standard as every other game. An active tournament scene is required for a game to be considered for Evo.

[mr. newbie]

why dont we try getting a few people to buy saturns localy and haev a few small tournies? down here saturns are $40 and on ebay sf zero is currently at 40 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=8126319995&rd=1

i know a lot of people have said tht but if anyboys interested i'll personally buy a saturn.

[Solaris]

a3 is a beast.. i know plennnnnntttttyy of people who love that game and play it serious. if evo had it i think there would be a huge scene for it developing everywhere and at least like a 100 to 150 people would enter it at evo minimum.. evo is like mid-tier without it.. im getting back into the game now that nibor moved here.

[TS]

Saturn version has slowdown on some V-ISM combos, but is accurate to the arcade version otherwise (I don't know about the Dhalsim differences). There's actually a screen setting in the options mode which can change some things (ie Dhalsim can easily s.FP after a blocked Blanka rolling ball attack in one mode, and is harder in another), but if you have everything set right...and can get the hang of some of the combos again (faster stuff like hadou-rave needs to be re-learned a little), you're good to go.

I used to have a Saturn and Z3, but my old apartment got broken into and it got stolen...guess it's time I get a new one...

[Apoc]

I'd just like to point out that you've lost our little bet(post here (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1655656#post1655656)).




:lame:

Fair enough. However, I hadn't taken it as though I couldn't comment on the issue when hella ppl are talking about it :lame:

I should've been more specific. I meant that I wouldn't be nagging SRK about the issue. However, I brought up many of the other issues I had and ppl kept reading A3 into my posts.

Also, I don't see where it was a bet. It was more of an agreement.

If you wanted to really bet, it would've been easy to announce A3 a month before Evo and bet that it wouldn't have gotten 64ppl. I would've won that bet though, lol. You're crazy to think that if you added A3 to the line up that you wouldn't get AT LEAST 64 ppl. I mean, if all the shit you say is true, then only about 20-30 ppl would play AND it's not an endurance game(a la cvs2) so it goes much faster. That means that it would take...oh...an hour to run with a few stations? It's clear that if things were like you're assuming, then having an A3 tourney wouldn't get in the way of anything AND you'd satisfy those 20-30 ppl in the process AND the A3 players would run it so that you wouldn't be sacrificing any staff. Yeah, that's "too much trouble" for what it's worth. 3 TVs for 20-30 ppl without any staff sacrifice? That so easily doable that, to not do it, clearly shows me that you know that A3 would easily get 64 ppl and most certainly wouldn't be the smallest tourney of them all.

Basically, the reason Evo "can't" have A3 is because SRK knows that it would take the room, resources and time of any of the other average-sized tournies. If A3 would ACT as dead as you like to make it sound, it wouldn't even be a hiccup at Evo. Fact is, it WOULD be an event. I believe you know this to be true.

Anyway, if I were to make any bet, that would be it.

I'm thinking that since this thread had nothing to do with me, it's ok that I post in regards to the topic. Also, seeing as how you take my discussing of A3 at Evo, in any sense, as breaking the agreement, then I guess I'm free to discuss A3 at will, now. Sweet.

You didn't win any bets because you weren't down to make one. If you think that you're REALLY correct in your assessment of A3 then put your rep out there. I'm willing to be made to look stupid to prove that I'm right. I guess it's different on your end where, if A3 was 64+, SRK itself would look pretty stupid when they clearly were just making assumptions since, well, no, past, Cali major of A3, has EVER not been successful. Yep, you base your estimation on mere assumption. If you were right, it'd be easier to make me concede but, you're not. You're just keeping myself and others from proving ourselves right.

My claim is simple. If you announced A3 at Evo, like NOW, then A3 would be successful just like it has been EVERY single time in the past.

Apoc.

[Apoc]

Well, the bet wasn't the only criteria that A3 could be added to Evo. Ponder was just trying to get Apoc to stop whining all over SRK. Apoc is lame because he's going back on his word -- continuing to complain after he said he wouldn't.

The A3 community isn't getting penalized. A3 is held to the same standard as every other game. An active tournament scene is required for a game to be considered for Evo.

So...when a really great game slows down, you drop it for a newer, lesser game, that more ppl are playing instead of encouraging folks to play the superior game? You don't think that there will be a bunch of really poor fighters in the line-up in just a few years? Um...they make games, more and more, so that everyone can compete. So, we're not going to be getting gems from Capcom, that's for sure.

See, this philosophy requires game companies to release new fighters to keep the scene alive. It's much better, and more respectable, to tout the best games. This has been a pattern for the longest time beginning with MvC2. Just because mvc2 was hella popular, here, you went and sucked it off a LOT. Did that make the game better or more solid? Nope, it just lowered the standard that SF players have had for fighters. Sure, the game is great with a very small percentage of usuable teams but, on the whole, it's poorly executed. Still, you hear US players, now, claiming that mvc2 is the best game ever, lol. So, let's continually use the same philosophy until the scene is so dumbed down it might as well be a mario party scene.

Some shit is just stupid. You have to call it like that. I don't care if it's the most popular game in the world. It's probably that popular because there are more stupid ppl than anything, lol. Take A3 V-Akuma for example. The fact that you can do high damage attacks, without out-thinking your opponent, because he can perform "unblockables" is just stupid. Anyone who respects the strats of fighters is not going to argue that. Anytime matches are won without some form of out-thinking, then, it should be clear that something stupid is going on. A-Sak vs. a parry groove in Cvs2, anyone? Magneto patterns on MvC2 are like Tekken 10strings when you don't know wtf the 10 strings are. If you have to guess(not anticipate) to block, it's the tactic that's winning and the tactic is stupid. Anytime, a tactic let's someone win without out-thinking the opponent, is dumb. That's just my opinion. SF is about getting into the opponents head. It isn't about performing preconceived patterns waiting for the opponent to miss-guess a block. It may be fun but, it isn't deep at all. Still, yall are going to further the decline of the standards by NOT supporting the good games INDEFINATELY.

Why is the scene diminishing? Because fighters are less mentally intriguing than they have been in the past. You need to hold newer games up to some standard if the scene is to be respected, even, by gamers.

You're lame for letting SF go stupid if I'm lame for complaining that you're doing so:p

Apoc.

[inkblot]

If you devoted 1/10th the effort you spend posting here to organizing A3 players, A3 would be back in no time!

In order to have a tournament, you need tournament players. A3 players did not turn out for MWC. They did not turn out at Evo. Vampire Savior, KOF, VF, and Virtua On all out-drew A3 in the byoc room. A3 players have not turned out anywhere for years.

Until there is some kind of real A3 tournament community, there is no point in even discussing A3 at Evo. This simple fact will not change no matter how many 1000s of words you post here.

[FMJaguar]

Take A3 V-Akuma for example. The fact that you can do high damage attacks, without out-thinking your opponent, because he can perform "unblockables" is just stupid. Anyone who respects the strats of fighters is not going to argue that.

That was like, the first step, now it's that plus a bunch of other stuff thats the same or worse... but yet we're using A3 as the example of a strong SF not represented in EVO. To me it seems a lot of the weaker tactics were created around this time. I think A3 had the greatest 'potential' to represent but i'm not sold on why it does today in it's current arcade version.

Anytime matches are won without some form of out-thinking, then, it should be clear that something stupid is going on. A-Sak vs. a parry groove in Cvs2, anyone? Magneto patterns on MvC2 are like Tekken 10strings when you don't know wtf the 10 strings are. If you have to guess(not anticipate) to block, it's the tactic that's winning and the tactic is stupid. Anytime, a tactic let's someone win without out-thinking the opponent, is dumb. That's just my opinion. SF is about getting into the opponents head. It isn't about performing preconceived patterns waiting for the opponent to miss-guess a block. It may be fun but, it isn't deep at all. Still, yall are going to further the decline of the standards by NOT supporting the good games INDEFINATELY.

I agree that those things are silly from a game design standpoint. My question is whether either (CvS2 or A3) is that great a game that it should be supported indefinately? Are you saying both are?

It can be conceded that magneto is a guess at close range, but it's not inevitable that he gets there. In SF if someone had that it would be silly (CvS1 nako?) but marvel doesn't have the same playfield, which is why it's not totally dominant. I liken it to a good tick in SF, one response is just to not get in that position in the first place, in marvel it's very possible to do that, as opposed to 'avoiding' a VC or A-ism activating regardless of what you do.

[Muskau]

What ever did happen with the A3 boards being brought to EVO2k4 by Sabre and B-izm? I didn't hear anything about it. :confused:

[margalis]

It's a lot easier to complain than do something...that's the lesson for the kids at home.

Lot's of people talk the talk when it comes to A3, but talking up a good game isn't enough. If A3 is such a popular game, how about someone sponsoring a national A3 tournament?

You know, at one point the Cannons were just two guys...that's all it takes.

[Apoc]

It's a lot easier to complain than do something...that's the lesson for the kids at home.

Lot's of people talk the talk when it comes to A3, but talking up a good game isn't enough. If A3 is such a popular game, how about someone sponsoring a national A3 tournament?

You know, at one point the Cannons were just two guys...that's all it takes.


2 guys with some extra money, lol. Seriously, that's the only difference between Tom and Tony and other tourney organizers. It's not like Tom and Tony are masterminding anything. Hell, if the Empire actually had money, they would throw a better tourney than SRK is doing now.

Yo, I'm going to talk to every political analyst and tell them that they should run for president. That's akin to what you keep saying here.

Yo, I'm an SF analyst and I'm calling it like I see it. Of course, since I'm pointing out the negatives and their effects, ppl want to call it complaining.

The point that you're downplaying is that the SF players made these tourneys happen. It wasn't some great brainchild of Tom or Tony. In fact, every idea they've used has come from somewhere else. These are just 2 guys who bought their influence in the SF scene and now, are whoring it out.

You act as if SF wouldn't be around if not for the Cannons. A little more sober judgement is in order. It just so happens that they have the money to put down on events like this. Even WITH that, it would all be a stellar waste of funds if the community didn't back them. Now, they have an attitude that believes they know better than the rest of the scene. Players gave them too much trust and now we're seeing the error of our trust.

You're crazy to think that, if given the same funding, SRK peeps, together, wouldn't come up with a better tourney. EVERY idea that Evo subscribes to came from players and other scenes. For all of the money they put into Evo2k4, it was sub-par. I really doubt the tourney scene would leave any room for question regarding controls. That issue is fucking paramount. I guess the air up there is really thin when you start forgetting the basics.

What I say is commentary. Everyone else is free to offer their commentary even if it disagrees. Going around telling ppl that they're complaining is masking the fact that you don't have any points to make AND you're unwilling to address the issues that have been brought up. Yo, "it's easier to say we're complaining than it is to actually offer up any intellectual debate on the matters."

OF COURSE there's complaining. Hell, we complain about every new capcom game but I don't see ppl posting foolishly saying, "go and make your own fighter instead of complaining." Fuck that. Capcom chooses to make a game and fucks up, we're going to call them on it. Especially when they're supposed to know what makes a good fighter. IT'S THE SAME SHIT HERE.

This is not directed at you specifically, Margalis. It goes out to anyone who tries to debate without actually debating. Now THAT is pointless.

Ya know, I find it shitty how, when no one posts on the issue it means that no one cares. Then when ppl post on the issue, they're just complaining. Pretty stupid, if ya ask me. We may be complaining, but we're making points while doing so. It's not our fault that they fall on deaf ears.

Apoc.

[PipTigger]

Apoc:

I don't know you that well && I don't really have time to considering how much you write && how little of it is consistent with my perspective on everything but...

You're some sour combination of insane, naive, && jealous... jealous of the Cannons' money, influence, success, popularity, friendliness, intelligence, etc..

Your bitching && moaning, calling it like you see it, blah blah is tiresome, ineffective, immature, && foolhardy. It's deeply rooted in the way you think... the way you feel so passionately that the world && the scene && the Cannons owe you something && the ire you spew for all the Earth-shattering injustices you perceive are keeping you down.

You claim you want to argue intelligently... that's what forums are about... that's what changes opinion... brings about meaningful change in the real world. Then whenever anyone engages you, you write books of garbage full of spite && chaff so that they must lose the so-called "argument" because it's not worth it to try to worry a needle of a point out of your tirades. Maybe that strategy is just relegation to fanaticism && ostracism. I suggest you learn brevity. I have verbose tendencies myself (waxing poetic with my delusions of grandeur) but clarity can be achieved. Get to the point. Think carefully about your goals (in life, SF, SRK, a thread, each post).

Now I'll address any points I was able to catch.

0) "Nobody plays A3 because Evo won't represent it. That's a fact. [Lame Australian anecdote snipped] SRK wants to ignore their responsibility in the death of the A3 scene, blameshifting, and putting it on the players as if SRK is THAT dumb and doesn't notice its' influence."

False. Evo won't host A3 tournaments until tournament players play A3 in numbers comparable to other competitive fighting games. That's a fact. You're on the sad && mistaken end of some chicken-n-egg dichotomy you've made up. SRK staff (or the Cannons in particular if that's what you meant) doesn't deny having influence. Likewise, the Cannons have been forthcoming about the criteria for title inclusion in Evo. You, personally, have been given a challenge/bet/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to demonstrate that A3 can meet the criteria && deserves to be considered for inclusion in Evo. You failed && point the blame elsewhere yet you're the most prolific proponent of A3 viability.

Understand this: The Cannons make decisions as fairly && intelligently as they can. They're not out to screw communities of competitive players... Does it need stating that they wouldn't be in the position they are if their goal was to screw such communities? They expose their decision-making process to concerned game fans out of their own care && consideration. If there is worthwhile interest in a particular title, it will be considered for inclusion in Evo. It can be quite simple once your mind is capable of accepting the truth. * I'm feeling more && more like I'm wasting my time because you'll never be able to accept any truth other than what you wish the truth were. This is probably your comfort-zone. I imagine in your mind, you're the down-trodden underdog speaking out valiantly on the very forums owned && operated freely && voluntarily by your sworn enemies.

1) "3s would've died just like A3 EVEN with a console port had Evo kept dissing it."

That is a lot of hypothetical stuff to claim. Here's the truth: Evo doesn't "diss". Evo is the most popular international fighting game tournament in the United States. 3S enjoys a compelling following in the U.S. && Nippon. It has earned the right to be included && has been the host of likely the most exciting finals our players && fans have yet seen. Once again, A3 does not have a compelling following in the U.S. or Nippon.

1b) "3s DID NOT have a resurgeance."

This is beside the point. 3S has a following today. Whether a similar following existed (&& waned) in the past has no bearing on its (or A3's) inclusion in Evo.

2) "A3 would NEVER have died had their been a console port."

I think there are 3 console ports... but none of them have a following.

3) "When A3 is back in the mix and EVERYone can play on their controls 100%, THEN SF will get healthy again. Ignoring these things only serves to make Evo a meaningless geekfest."

Everyone can already play on their controls 100%. SF is healthier than ever. Ignoring non-existent communities makes Evo the greatest annual fighting game attraction... ie. the most meaningful fighting-game-geekfest.

4) "If anyone else had the resources that SRK does, at this point, another tourney, done for the players, would crush Evo. But it's like business, even if the ideas are poor, those with the ability to market and make things happen, even shitty things, will be more successful. It's only a matter of time before the real community pops up with something really for the players and then Evo is going to be laughed at dissed since they seemed to have forgotten what makes a tourney respectable, like 100% working controls."

More hypothetical claims... right, right... Evo is not done for the players... of course. Evo would be crushed by an upstart that is done for the players... yadda yadda. Oh... like business... poor ideas... ability to market && make things happen... yes... fair enough. Both good && bad ideas come to naught without the ability to market && MAKE THINGS HAPPEN! Your ideas of A3 superiority, notoriety, worthiness, popularity, etc. are a dime-a-dozen. What have you MADE HAPPEN?

-- I'm skipping responding to a hundred posts && a million words here to keep myself sane --

5) "2 guys with some extra money, lol. Seriously, that's the only difference between Tom and Tony and other tourney organizers. It's not like Tom and Tony are masterminding anything. Hell, if the Empire actually had money, they would throw a better tourney than SRK is doing now."

It's plainly apparent that "extra money" is NOT "the only difference". Tom && Tony do mastermind every important detail of every Evo (with the help of staff comprised of other site admins && friends who care just as much as they do). Empire supposedly gives out money to hella players && buys flights && stuff... maybe they should allocate money to throwing a good tourney before they can consider having the organizational skills to be on equal footing with (much less be better than) SRK.

6) "The point that you're downplaying is that the SF players made these tourneys happen."

Nobody (except you && a few other chesters) denies it takes players to make a tourney... which is why we require a competitive scene before we'll work out the logistics of whether a game can feasibly be included in our Evo lineup.

7) "It wasn't some great brainchild of Tom or Tony. In fact, every idea they've used has come from somewhere else. These are just 2 guys who bought their influence in the SF scene and now, are whoring it out."

It's no brainchild to host a tournament... sure ideas may have come from elsewhere (is that in dispute either?)... umm the Cannons did not just buy their influence. It was earned obviously by running tournaments. I don't deny it takes money to do it. They are so generous to spend their money year after year to do it. I know it's not financially profitable for them to do what they do but don't delude yourself in thinking they have some sinister motive to buy influence && whore it out or whatever your crazy mind thinks.

The Cannons && SRK staff run fighting game sites, admin forums, discuss && plan year-round, && run Evo because we want to. It costs us all money && time && we still do it.

8) "You act as if SF wouldn't be around if not for the Cannons."

SF would not be the same as it is today without the Cannons. Of course it would still be "around" but, as you said, the ability to market && make things happen will do wonders for a community. What used to be just Capcom fighting game fans has encompassed all the major worthwhile competitive fighting game franchises. This Evo got coverage on G4 && GSN... && some commercial sponsors have started to take notice. We had the U.S. exclusive Tekken5 playable! I'm sure you could give a rat's ass about non-Capcom but the fact is POPULARITY MATTERS! You've said we should try to drum up interest in A3 because it's such a good game since pandering to all the newer (&& by your estimation markedly inferior) games just leads to the dumbing of the community && a dull fighting experience. As a game developer, I agree that the best game is not always popular but very few people in our culture are satisfied to do the same old things for the rest of their lives or are critical enough to adhere to && evangelize for something based on less than revolutionary advantages. Whatever ways you think A3 is better than every other game is not light years ahead of any other popular title. You can belittle Tekken or Marvel mixups but people enjoy those games && don't agree with your assessment. Our society runs on pushing the newest, latest, && greatest... marketing && selling. Interest is generated by new-ness. That's where money is && if you're idealistic && try to shun monetary incentives... popular games are still where good competition can be had! If you have 15 people in the whole world that will show up to an A3 tournament even if it's the best game ever made (&& the best that ever will be... in Vegas... with underlings... doing backflips ;) )... you don't have enough competitors to make it all that interesting for players or spectators. Interest && popularity matter. Arguing the technical merits of some game is fine && good but that does not make the leap to meaning we should waste effort promoting a title nobody plays.

We run Evo because we love these games && we love our communities && we love competing internationally && we even love doing all the necessary legwork to put it all together. You're an ingrate && typically a buffoon intellectually but I've thrown you a bone here. Grow up && realize that the Cannons && Evo staff are not a logical enemy of your stated goals. It has been && will be possible to include A3 in Evo. It has not been worth it to do so yet. It is not our responsibility to market your pet game which none of us play or care about... frankly almost all of SRK staff prefer A2 to A3 but I digress. The point is hardly anybody plays A2 or A3 anymore so they don't get included. If a fighting game has a substantial following, we have in the past && do now && will in the future consider it for inclusion in Evo. Get it? I didn't think so.

I'm bored of repeating myself... heh earlier I wrote 'be brief' yet I'm beating a dead horse here. I should probably work or do something... anything would be more productive than trying to reason with you. You sucked me in. The Cannons && the rest of SRK staff don't need my defense but we all fscking care more than you can fathom. We struggle over decisions && plan all year long. We do it because we love it && it shows to almost everyone except a few whining bitches. Are you jealous that you don't have Cannon money && power? I guess carry on crying about it on the forums they pay for... asshole. I'm looking forward to our next Evo. Hopefully we'll have fewer hiccups, more competitors && spectators, more excitement... more fun! Evo is great! Apoc is lame.

-Pip

ps. "... We're making points... It's not our fault that they fall on deaf ears."

[Kyo Kusanagi]

A problem with the way I've noticed most people talk about SFA3 and SF3 is the assumption that both games had a strong following before Evo axed them. In 2000 onward, I wasn't aware there was anyone playing 3S seriously in the US, yet there were tons of A3 tourneys. At B5, there was a small exhibition of 3S because I thought it faded out before it got started, yet A3 was part of the main event. (As a side note, I was DQed from A3 for being late... and I showed at 9 AM! I wish that would've happened at Evo 2004 to the whole 10 AM bracket of ST.)

!B6 (Evo 2002) only had three games. It really didn't make sense that they would have dropped the total game count after gathering a bigger space and making the tournament name change. I suppose it could've been due to the fact that there were the A3 and 3S rematches (Apoc represented 'Rog to the fullest! The Double KO in round 3 is my fondest memory of all the "B series" tourneys.). Still, exhibitions like that hardly count. Someone had brought up in a previous thread about arranging Evo like Magic does with the Pro Tour and the counter argument was something like, "If all of Evo were finals, who would come out just to watch them play?"

When the 3S exhibition showed up, it was new to the majority of the people watching. Much like momentum is important to a fight, it's also crucial to the growth of a community. It was the fans of 3S' time to finally make a game long deserving of attention thrive. A3, on the other hand, had already been thriving. The removal of A3 at Evo that year and the following year hurt its community badly. Both games were undergoing the complete opposite changes that year; A3 fans were unknowningly forced to fight for what it thought was an already established spot while 3S was given a chance to gain "mainstream" popularity for the first time.

Given the same situation, I feel ST would've died at !B6 and !B7. The influence that Evo holds over games played in tourneys elsewhere should be clear by now. I originally thought Evo and its organizers were a part of the fighting game community, not an observor of it. As much as the tourney has changed to represent fighting games from all different companies, it is still inkblot and ponder that's repping the Capcom side.

To inkblot and/or ponder: Ignoring Evo and the lack of popularity of A3, do you prefer it to any other Capcom games currently on Evo's roster? Do you prefer it over any of the other games on the roster? How do you honestly feel about the game itself? If you two took the initiative and confirmed A3 for Evo within the next month, would you expect a resurgence?

On a completely important and extremely related note, Megaman 7, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Kirby's Dream Course for Evolution 2005!

[Ponder]

You're crazy to think that, if given the same funding, SRK peeps, together, wouldn't come up with a better tourney. EVERY idea that Evo subscribes to came from players and other scenes. For all of the money they put into Evo2k4, it was sub-par.

There is nothing stopping you from mobilizing the community and running your own tournament just as big as Evo. You could call it "Apoc's People's Tournament." You could even have an APT tour! If your ideas and execution are better you would have no problem with money. Here are a couple of ideas (I know you've already thought of these).

1) Ask for Donations: We did this for B4, B5, and Evolution 2002, and received a lot more in donations than we though we would. If people believe in your tournament, they'll donate.

2) Sell Things For Profit: We stick to T-Shirts, but you could branch out (I'm sure you have lots of ideas here). There are many sites online which will handle everything for you and mail you the profits. How about an APT branded hoodie?

3) Cover Charge: For 3 years, we've had a $20 cover charge to avoid pumping our own money into the tournament. $20 works well for us, but if you're using a smaller room (probably for your 1st tournament), you may be able to get by with $10 or no cover charge at all.

4) Sell a DVD Afterwards: This is another great way to raise money for next year's tournament or to help make up for whatever losses you had running the current years. We need the DVD to cover the costs of running the website, but for you the DVD sales could be nearly pure profit.

I would love it if someone put on a quality tournament on the scale of EVO. Then I could go to one of these things and have fun instead of running the show. The bottom line is the hardest part of running these events is having the dedication to see through the planning and logistics. The staff of MWC, ECC, and Shoryuken.com run great events every year with extremely tiny or $0 out of pocket expenses. Why don't you?

Simply because you're not willing to put forth the effort.

Which makes your complaints and libelous accusations all the more insulting and petty. In this regard, your more of an annoyance than an instrument of change. Either be more constructive or go away.

[Ponder]

To inkblot and/or ponder: Ignoring Evo and the lack of popularity of A3, do you prefer it to any other Capcom games currently on Evo's roster? Do you prefer it over any of the other games on the roster? How do you honestly feel about the game itself? If you two took the initiative and confirmed A3 for Evo within the next month, would you expect a resurgence?

I think A3's a better game than CvS2, and on par with 3S. A3's probably more accessible to entry level players than 3S, but I prefer watching high-level 3S matches to high level A3.

The biggest problem with A3 is V-ism. At its highest level, classic SF footsies, mind games, etc don't matter. What matters is activating in a position where your opponent can't counter-activate (preferablly through their attack) and hitting them for big damage. Once you land it, the other guy has like 80% meter to your 0%, so now the game sea-saws back to where you're trying to get to 50% (so you can counter his VC) before he can manage to land his on you. There are some exceptions to this rule (e.g. A-Dhalsim), but it's mostly true. Apoc will probably post saying that I'm completely wrong. Whatever, I don't care.

From a tournament organizers perspective (ignoring the merits of any particular game), I would much rather have A3 in the lineup instead of CvS2 or MvC2, simply because A3 games are fast and predictable, which makes A3 tournaments easier to schedule. CvS2 and MvC2 both take forever to finish.

If we were to add A3 to Evo2k5, I think it would draw the fewest number of people of all the 2d games. I think you may see a few 8-16 man A3 tournaments popping up around the scene a few weeks before the tournament, but that's it. More people might enter it at tournaments that continue to feature A3 (e.g. MWC). I think this is true for any Capcom game that carries some nostalgic value (e.g. HF, XSF). The only thing that can convince me that this is not true would be a resurgance in the A3 scene in the form of player organized tournaments.

[margalis]

The Cannon's even helped (or, basically DID) run B2, which was across the country at MIT. What separates them is effort and dedication.
---
Apoc, I don't see anything constructive coming from what you are saying. The Cannon's have said A3 won't be at Evo unless they see player tournaments elsewhere. So, that is your challenge. Take it, leave it, or come up with a third option. Identify where the people who like A3 are concentrated and have a tourney.

Some of your points (like that CVS2 isn't a great game) are valid, some of them aren't, but you have to take the pragmatic approach. What can *you* do? You keep leaning on the Cannons or some other mystery party to do something...

[Xenozip.]

*snip*
This is very helpful and constructive, thank you for that. However, what would you suggest for the people who plan to/want to add A3 into their roster?

So far, what I'm hearing is that it's a choice between Saturn A3 and SuperGun. Without Superguns, you're left with the Saturn as the only valid alternative.

The most ideal alternatives cause legal issues due to copyright infringement. This is because the most ideal alternatives envolve arcade emulation.

However, it's very diffacult to appropriate a large number of Saturns (which would be required), let along an equally large number of Saturn-A3 discs. Mainly due to their age and relative scarcity.

Even if an organizer did wish to go this route, how would they get the number of Saturns + A3's necessary? Couldn't very well expect the general number of attendants to 'bring their own', since most people no longer own their own Saturn or copy of A3. And I don't see an organizer being able to purchase a large quantity of these systems and games on their own, due to the cost.

Then there's the problem of people wanting to use sticks, and not pads. That's quite an issue in on itself. I doubt anyone even sells custom sticks for the Saturn anymore, not that anyone would want to buy them; this means converters.

I'm not trying to be negative here. I'm just trying to find out ways to make this work. I think the main issue most people are having is not knowing what to do or how to do it.

[Apoc]

I'm replying for fun. Believe what you want. I find your analysis humorous, at best. That makes it hard to take seriously. I just don't get that personal regarding SF no matter how passionate my words sound. It has and always will be a hobby and right now, there's no heat on it so, it's about as hot as any cosplay or video-game convention and, if you knew me, you'd know that I don't think much of video-games, in general. Take the "special" out of SF and it isn't even worth my respect. It further confuses me that you think your opinion of me is worth spouting. I haven't gotten personal on SRK and I don't care what ppl think of me. Check history. I used to do nothing but help peeps in forums like this and now I complain. Oh GEE! My rep! My rep! (SOB) lol. Posts like yours show me how personally my words can affect ppl. I expect shit like that from some women, not fellas. Some folks are a lil over-sensitive for men, lol.

Still, I love to express myself, so I do.

So, I'll deal with the issues and your attempt at making points.

I'll make a comment on my supposed failure at organizing an A3 event. Um...I didn't make any attempt. I guess that's failing, lol. No, I only failed at keeping my mouth shut about A3. If I failed at that challenge then SRK has failed in the challenge to test A3 at Evo. No one has made any attempt at accepting eachothers' challenge so...read more carefully. You certainly miss a lot. No wonder my posts are too much for you.


Your bitching && moaning, calling it like you see it, blah blah is tiresome, ineffective, immature, && foolhardy. It's deeply rooted in the way you think... the way you feel so passionately that the world && the scene && the Cannons owe you something && the ire you spew for all the Earth-shattering injustices you perceive are keeping you down.

I perceive that I'm being kept down? Wtf? lol I have no idea where you're coming from. I don't see how anything regarding SF would keep me down in any area of life so, wth are you talking about? Shit like that is ridiculous. Ppl think I'm passionate? I guess the difference between passionate and psychotic is found within these words? It's mindblowing to me to think that SRK affects my life at all. It merely affects my enjoyment of one particular hobby. Oh darn.

Whoops. I thought you were going to make a point in that paragraph. My bad. Moving along...

You claim you want to argue intelligently... that's what forums are about... that's what changes opinion... brings about meaningful change in the real world. Then whenever anyone engages you, you write books of garbage full of spite && chaff so that they must lose the so-called "argument" because it's not worth it to try to worry a needle of a point out of your tirades.

So, you're upset because you read so slowly that replying to me would take your whole day? Also, who determines who wins and loses an argument? Yo, when I bring up an issue and it's disregarded, my points been made. Usually ppl don't argue when they can't. I'm all for debating. FMJ and I don't have any problem debating. Sure, it may be long to some but, should I apologize if my posts are too much for you? lol. Take a speed reading course or something. Don't read my posts then. It sure sounds like you're saying that you'd like to argue but, it would take too much time to address the points. Thanks for proving that I do bring up multiple points to contend with. If you didn't want to argue at all, I missed the nerve. I obviously hit yours a dozen times, lol.
cont.

[Apoc]

So, you're upset because you read so slowly that replying to me would take your whole day? Also, who determines who wins and loses an argument? Yo, when I bring up an issue and it's disregarded, my points been made. Usually ppl don't argue when they can't. I'm all for debating. FMJ and I don't have any problem debating. Sure, it may be long to some but, should I apologize if my posts are too much for you? lol. Take a speed reading course or something. Don't read my posts then. It sure sounds like you're saying that you'd like to argue but, it would take too much time to address the points. Thanks for proving that I do bring up multiple points to contend with. If you didn't want to argue at all, I missed the nerve. I obviously hit yours a dozen times, lol.

So, your point here is that my posts are too long to argue with. You had to write that instead of bringing up issues. So far, your post is nothing but an emotional rant displaying your opinion of me. ...K.

Let's get to a real point:
False. Evo won't host A3 tournaments until tournament players play A3 in numbers comparable to other competitive fighting games. That's a fact.

I would quote you fully here but, you're way off the mark in your initial statement. If what you're saying were true, then please, do me the courtesy of explaining the inclusion of VF4 at Evo. VF has NEVER been a popular game here. I recall it being said that they through it in there to see if it would generate interest and if the showing wasn't stellar in 2k4, they would drop it from the line-up. YES! They added VF4 just to give it a shot and NOT because tournament numbers were EVER anything NEAR A3 or the other games represented.

Put simply. You're ignorant. You may not like me but, don't let it affect you to where you spout stupid shit as fact and then tell ME to think about what I post and then proceeding to give me life advice. LOL. Don't you see what a joke you're making yourself out to be? You make declarations that are clearly false and label them as fact. You also take my words so personally that I feel the need to counsel you on it. But, I won't. It's enough for you to embarass yourself. Keep taking what I say to heart.

Understand this: The Cannons make decisions as fairly && intelligently as they can. They're not out to screw communities of competitive players... Does it need stating that they wouldn't be in the position they are if their goal was to screw such communities?

Who said it was their intention or goal? I'm just pointing out what direction they're heading in. If they don't want to listen, that's fine by me. I'm not so sure that they ever got SF in the first place. It isn't going to hurt me so much knowing that I put the warning out there. I DID say something. That's enough for me. In fact, I've pointed to EVIDENCE regarding the repercussions of their poor decisions. It's not like I grabbed it out of thin air. You can look at things like whole entire communities dropping SF to realize that things aren't going in the right direction. It's merely a matter of whether or not you choose to accept the evidence. I never ONCE claimed that SRK tried to begin messing shit up. They just happened to step in it and I'm letting them know that they stink a lil now and need rethink shit. But know this, there is a certain satisfaction in seeing the repercussions of their poor decisions when I do say something about it. I think that it's entirely possible that they will make a poor decision solely to spite me. Yep. I think that's mighty funny. If the SF scene continues to dwindle and continues to have a silly attitude, it isn't going to hurt me at all. I'll be laughing, knowing that I pointed out the signs and because of their distaste for me, they failed to analyze things properly. Understand, it's clear to me that SF will be turned into a pansy ass geeky cosplay scene full of folks that can't socialize with anyone other than videogame fanatics and anime heads. Either that or it will die completely. In both cases, SF, as a hobby, will have lost all serious respect, imo. Believe me, I won't be sobbing. I'll be laughing and pointing my finger saying "I told you so." It's no skin off of my back to not compete anymore. I have other hobbies already that I find more important and worthwhile than the current SF scene.

I'll be laughing because, it'll take some really poor decisions to make the once strong SF scene into what it's becoming. Don't think for a second that I believe that they care though. Knowing that they don't care, there shouldn't be any problem with my rants.

If there is worthwhile interest in a particular title, it will be considered for inclusion in Evo. It can be quite simple once your mind is capable of accepting the truth. * I'm feeling more && more like I'm wasting my time because you'll never be able to accept any truth other than what you wish the truth were. This is probably your comfort-zone. I imagine in your mind, you're the down-trodden underdog speaking out valiantly on the very forums owned && operated freely && voluntarily by your sworn enemies.

How are Tom and Tony my enemies? That makes no sense to me. I'm just against some of their decisions and the process by which they make them. That's all.

Anyway, by this criteria, MK would've been added if Evo existed back in the early 90's. I make no apologies for having higher standards beyond popularity. Popularity does not equal quality so, we'll never agree here. Quality is more important and worthy of respect than popularity. That's a personal preference.

cont

[Apoc]

Let's get one thing clear. I respect SRK for allowing me to post negatively in regards to their decisions. It's not as if they couldn't just ban me at any given time. It's nice to know that they respect freedom of speech and opinion. That is, indeed, respectable. It's obvious that I don't bring any fun for them. Still, I don't have to respect their decisions to respect them. There is nothing personal in this for me. On a personal level, I'm grateful for the years of contributions that they have made to the SF scene in the past. Now, however, I feel that they are turning their back on that. It still does not subtract from my appreciation for their past efforts. I merely have no appreciation for their current line of thinking. I'm really trying to drive this point home since, well, you're not the only one missing it. Still, I'm not going to add in every post "love what you've done but, you suck lately."

Any more real points?...

2) "A3 would NEVER have died had their been a console port."

I think there are 3 console ports... but none of them have a following.

Geez. I can't believe I have to explain this. I meant that there is no console port comparable to the arcade. They are all vastly different from the tournament version(arcade). So no, there are ZERO accurate ports of A3. I'm dumbfounded by the necessity to explain that.

Everyone can already play on their controls 100%. SF is healthier than ever. Ignoring non-existent communities makes Evo the greatest annual fighting game attraction... ie. the most meaningful fighting-game-geekfest.

Dude, were you at Evo? You're a fool to believe that ppl played 100%. Even those that did well had major stick problems on every game. The only difference is that nothing can be done because pausing causes a loss. So, you're CLUELESS here. I mean, I'm pretty sure Paul Lee and J.R.(not sure) said "fuck this" and played their tourney match on 3s downstairs in the arcade. You're believing a fairy tale. I've been to plenty of majors and never have I heard so many complaints regarding controls. Sure, on paper, it looks like bringin' your own stick would lead to less complaints. In reality, however, that was CLEARLY not the case and quite the opposite was fact.

Also, it's the tournament that makes it meaningful. Without accurate controls, the tourney isn't accurate and therefore, doesn't hold as much merit as a tourney with solid controls for everyone. Again, I'll agree to disagree here. You think SF is great as being some sort of videogame convention. Let me help you out. SF has ALWAYS been about the competition. When the competition is compromised, it's LESS meaningful to tourney players. Maybe YOU think it means something. I think you're nutz.

More hypothetical claims... right, right... Evo is not done for the players... of course. Evo would be crushed by an upstart that is done for the players... yadda yadda. Oh... like business... poor ideas... ability to market && make things happen... yes... fair enough. Both good && bad ideas come to naught without the ability to market && MAKE THINGS HAPPEN! Your ideas of A3 superiority, notoriety, worthiness, popularity, etc. are a dime-a-dozen. What have you MADE HAPPEN?

lol. What have I done? Wtf have you done. I was the first SF tourney holder to include other fighters and also the first player/tourney holder to give away $1000 in cash out of my pocket. At that time, it was the most EVER offered to any player. Valle won that, btw. Just because I have little interest in organizing a tourney doesn't mean that I haven't done anything. The fact is, I've done more than you and 90% of all players in the scene. In fact, I was the first person(along with Jeff Schaefer) to hold an interenet gathering when folks said that no one would travel for a video-game and SF. That is where I met Tom for the first time.

Yo, I could go on but, I don't think I've done much but, in comparison to the majority, I'm beyond reproach because I actually have put time and effort and money into SF and have tried to add to the flavor. In fact, many of my ideas are ported elsewhere nowadays. Hell, I was the first person in years to hold an ST tourney while it was dead. B3 followed suit and ppl still weren't interested. Then, it started to catch on with others after seeing the respect we gave it despite its' lack of popularity. I suppose my way of thinking was ok for back then but inapplicable today?

Anyway, you stepped in it. I've done more than you think and haven't been like many who JUST post. I have done shit and plenty. What have you done? That's right, jack shit. I may blow a lot of hot air but at least I have substance to back it up. You're little more than emotional babble without any merit to your words. You go do something and come back to me. Better yet, go do something that sets a new standard. Go and hold your own tourney and grab 2g from your pocket and hand it to the top player and watch some follow. I remember after I gave the $1000 away, Jayson M(SJG guy who ran A3 nationals) pulled me aside and told him I fucked him because now, they had to budget $1000 for the a3 national when they originally had intended $500. Yep, I've actually had some good influence on the scene before(GASP).

It's no brainchild to host a tournament... sure ideas may have come from elsewhere (is that in dispute either?)... umm the Cannons did not just buy their influence. It was earned obviously by running tournaments.

No, it was earned by running tourneys the way the players wanted them to be run. Now, it's big enough and encompasses more gaming scenes(since SFs is dwindling) so they don't have to do what the players want anymore. Ppl will show up because they know others will. It's a gathering now, little more. That's what I mean by them buying their influence. Evo would never have gotten so big had they made decisions in the same way. Or rather, it wouldn't have been so respected. Now, after they have their support, that they gained by appeasing players and those players helped spread the word, they are doing whatever the fuck they want. Way to keep it real. See, to me, that's what it's like when a head gets to big for the hat.

We run Evo because we love these games && we love our communities && we love competing internationally && we even love doing all the necessary legwork to put it all together. You're an ingrate && typically a buffoon intellectually but I've thrown you a bone here. Grow up && realize that the Cannons && Evo staff are not a logical enemy of your stated goals. It has been && will be possible to include A3 in Evo. It has not been worth it to do so yet. It is not our responsibility to market your pet game which none of us play or care about... frankly almost all of SRK staff prefer A2 to A3 but I digress. The point is hardly anybody plays A2 or A3 anymore so they don't get included. If a fighting game has a substantial following, we have in the past && do now && will in the future consider it for inclusion in Evo. Get it? I didn't think so.

I quote this because it's funny how you're a part of the "we." Appointed staff(not that I know that you are) means little. Anyone can be staff. It's up to TnT. The fact that most SRK staff prefers A2 to A3 is laughable and shows that the opinions of staff need to be analyzed instead of just accepted. I find it hilarious how SRK likes to follow Japan but, the Japanese can't stand console and consider A2 to be a supremely scrubby game(that's why there was only one national yet, they STILL have national events for A3). Hey, popular opinion can still be stupid. How about asking the best players in the country. Yep, A3 will top their list in a side by side comparison. The folks that understand the games the most, on all levels, will choose A3, and THAT is a fact. We'll have to agree to disagree here again. I'm more inclined to go with the opinions of those that have proven superiority in their understanding although, that's hard to do nowadays since everything is free to come by on the net. Still, some SRK staff consider KI a worthy fighter when, even in its' time of popularity most considered it the newest gimmick a la MK. Graphics and combos but little substance. I don't care what an idiot thinks. It's one thing to say that A2 is more fun, it's quite another to claim it is superior to A3. A statement like that is blatantly stupid to anyone who can analyze the two accurately. ANY idiot can play A2. I swear if most of SRK staff believe A2 to be superior, it's NO WONDER they're making some retarded decisions. There's an analytical problem occuring.

Yes, I get your criteria and I think it's stupid. That's my opinion. Quality over popularity for me. Popularity would lead to all sorts of stupid mainstream games at Evo. If Evo went that route, I'd just laugh at it and be glad that I was done:)
cont

[Apoc]

Let's get one thing clear. I respect SRK for allowing me to post negatively in regards to their decisions. It's not as if they couldn't just ban me at any given time. It's nice to know that they respect freedom of speech and opinion. That is, indeed, respectable. It's obvious that I don't bring any fun for them. Still, I don't have to respect their decisions to respect them. There is nothing personal in this for me. On a personal level, I'm grateful for the years of contributions that they have made to the SF scene in the past. Now, however, I feel that they are turning their back on that. It still does not subtract from my appreciation for their past efforts. I merely have no appreciation for their current line of thinking. I'm really trying to drive this point home since, well, you're not the only one missing it. Still, I'm not going to add in every post "love what you've done but, you suck lately."

Any more real points?...

2) "A3 would NEVER have died had their been a console port."

I think there are 3 console ports... but none of them have a following.

Geez. I can't believe I have to explain this. I meant that there is no console port comparable to the arcade. They are all vastly different from the tournament version(arcade). So no, there are ZERO accurate ports of A3. I'm dumbfounded by the necessity to explain that.

Everyone can already play on their controls 100%. SF is healthier than ever. Ignoring non-existent communities makes Evo the greatest annual fighting game attraction... ie. the most meaningful fighting-game-geekfest.

Dude, were you at Evo? You're a fool to believe that ppl played 100%. Even those that did well had major stick problems on every game. The only difference is that nothing can be done because pausing causes a loss. So, you're CLUELESS here. I mean, I'm pretty sure Paul Lee and J.R.(not sure) said "fuck this" and played their tourney match on 3s downstairs in the arcade. You're believing a fairy tale. I've been to plenty of majors and never have I heard so many complaints regarding controls. Sure, on paper, it looks like bringin' your own stick would lead to less complaints. In reality, however, that was CLEARLY not the case and quite the opposite was fact.

Also, it's the tournament that makes it meaningful. Without accurate controls, the tourney isn't accurate and therefore, doesn't hold as much merit as a tourney with solid controls for everyone. Again, I'll agree to disagree here. You think SF is great as being some sort of videogame convention. Let me help you out. SF has ALWAYS been about the competition. When the competition is compromised, it's LESS meaningful to tourney players. Maybe YOU think it means something. I think you're nutz.

More hypothetical claims... right, right... Evo is not done for the players... of course. Evo would be crushed by an upstart that is done for the players... yadda yadda. Oh... like business... poor ideas... ability to market && make things happen... yes... fair enough. Both good && bad ideas come to naught without the ability to market && MAKE THINGS HAPPEN! Your ideas of A3 superiority, notoriety, worthiness, popularity, etc. are a dime-a-dozen. What have you MADE HAPPEN?

lol. What have I done? Wtf have you done. I was the first SF tourney holder to include other fighters and also the first player/tourney holder to give away $1000 in cash out of my pocket. At that time, it was the most EVER offered to any player. Valle won that, btw. Just because I have little interest in organizing a tourney doesn't mean that I haven't done anything. The fact is, I've done more than you and 90% of all players in the scene. In fact, I was the first person(along with Jeff Schaefer) to hold an interenet gathering when folks said that no one would travel for a video-game and SF. That is where I met Tom for the first time.

Yo, I could go on but, I don't think I've done much but, in comparison to the majority, I'm beyond reproach because I actually have put time and effort and money into SF and have tried to add to the flavor. In fact, many of my ideas are ported elsewhere nowadays. Hell, I was the first person in years to hold an ST tourney while it was dead. B3 followed suit and ppl still weren't interested. Then, it started to catch on with others after seeing the respect we gave it despite its' lack of popularity. I suppose my way of thinking was ok for back then but inapplicable today?

Anyway, you stepped in it. I've done more than you think and haven't been like many who JUST post. I have done shit and plenty. What have you done? That's right, jack shit. I may blow a lot of hot air but at least I have substance to back it up. You're little more than emotional babble without any merit to your words. You go do something and come back to me. Better yet, go do something that sets a new standard. Go and hold your own tourney and grab 2g from your pocket and hand it to the top player and watch some follow. I remember after I gave the $1000 away, Jayson M(SJG guy who ran A3 nationals) pulled me aside and told him I fucked him because now, they had to budget $1000 for the a3 national when they originally had intended $500. Yep, I've actually had some good influence on the scene before(GASP).

It's no brainchild to host a tournament... sure ideas may have come from elsewhere (is that in dispute either?)... umm the Cannons did not just buy their influence. It was earned obviously by running tournaments.

No, it was earned by running tourneys the way the players wanted them to be run. Now, it's big enough and encompasses more gaming scenes(since SFs is dwindling) so they don't have to do what the players want anymore. Ppl will show up because they know others will. It's a gathering now, little more. That's what I mean by them buying their influence. Evo would never have gotten so big had they made decisions in the same way. Or rather, it wouldn't have been so respected. Now, after they have their support, that they gained by appeasing players and those players helped spread the word, they are doing whatever the fuck they want. Way to keep it real. See, to me, that's what it's like when a head gets to big for the hat.
cont

[Apoc]

We run Evo because we love these games && we love our communities && we love competing internationally && we even love doing all the necessary legwork to put it all together. You're an ingrate && typically a buffoon intellectually but I've thrown you a bone here. Grow up && realize that the Cannons && Evo staff are not a logical enemy of your stated goals. It has been && will be possible to include A3 in Evo. It has not been worth it to do so yet. It is not our responsibility to market your pet game which none of us play or care about... frankly almost all of SRK staff prefer A2 to A3 but I digress. The point is hardly anybody plays A2 or A3 anymore so they don't get included. If a fighting game has a substantial following, we have in the past && do now && will in the future consider it for inclusion in Evo. Get it? I didn't think so.

I quote this because it's funny how you're a part of the "we." Appointed staff(not that I know that you are) means little. Anyone can be staff. It's up to TnT. The fact that most SRK staff prefers A2 to A3 is laughable and shows that the opinions of staff need to be analyzed instead of just accepted. I find it hilarious how SRK likes to follow Japan but, the Japanese can't stand console and consider A2 to be a supremely scrubby game(that's why there was only one national yet, they STILL have national events for A3). Hey, popular opinion can still be stupid. How about asking the best players in the country. Yep, A3 will top their list in a side by side comparison. The folks that understand the games the most, on all levels, will choose A3, and THAT is a fact. We'll have to agree to disagree here again. I'm more inclined to go with the opinions of those that have proven superiority in their understanding although, that's hard to do nowadays since everything is free to come by on the net. Still, some SRK staff consider KI a worthy fighter when, even in its' time of popularity most considered it the newest gimmick a la MK. Graphics and combos but little substance. I don't care what an idiot thinks. It's one thing to say that A2 is more fun, it's quite another to claim it is superior to A3. A statement like that is blatantly stupid to anyone who can analyze the two accurately. ANY idiot can play A2. I swear if most of SRK staff believe A2 to be superior, it's NO WONDER they're making some retarded decisions. There's an analytical problem occuring.

Yes, I get your criteria and I think it's stupid. That's my opinion. Quality over popularity for me. Popularity would lead to all sorts of stupid mainstream games at Evo. If Evo went that route, I'd just laugh at it and be glad that I was done:)

I'm bored of repeating myself... heh earlier I wrote 'be brief' yet I'm beating a dead horse here.

Yep, stupid insults backed by hypocracy. Gotta love it, lol.

The Cannons && the rest of SRK staff don't need my defense but we all fscking care more than you can fathom.

Really, about what? To me, all yall care about is numbers now. You wanted Evo to grow prematurely and therefore put its' integrity on the line. I know yall care. That's not in question. The fact is, Tom and Tony don't "care" in the same way they used to. Look at history. Decisions are not made based on the same philosophies. I believe the Cannon's