-- Weightlifting & Nutrition Thread -- v9.0 Optimized [Archive] - Page 5

MagnusMadness

03-02-2006, 02:32 PM

About the CytoGainer: it's good stuff, but not for after a workout. Weightgainers have fat in them, which is usually healthy but post-workout isn't a good aspect because it complicates digestion in that critical time for glycogen replenishment.

www.abcbodybuilding.com is by far the best nutrition site for weightlifters, in my eyes. Every article is cited and backed by a plethora of scientific journals at the bottom.

Umm, cytogainer isn't high in fat....it's almost fat free, as well as lactose free....

610 cals per serving (4 scoops)
3.5g fat
84g carbs (only 5g being sugar, others are complexed maltodextrins)
54g protein
3g creatine
2g glutamine

And the previous question asked about shakes being frothy...try stirring it with a spoon instead of shaking it....isopure mixed in water especially gets a little foamy, but you can put it in a shaker and just kinda swirl it around until it's dissolved maybe shaking it once or twice...

MagnusMadness

03-02-2006, 02:45 PM

heh, it's not like i do 3 hours everyday man. i say on some days i do up to 3 hours. but usually that's when I have so much adreneline running through me I just keep going and going. that's how i found i could do 2 plates. i'm pushing my body to the limits, but this is only on certains days man.

3 hours in the gym is absolutely ridiculous ANY day, even if ur on HGH, insulin, test, and whatever else....I could BLITZ my ENTIRE body in 3 hours....

I seriously advise you to post up ur workout regimen and let me, chaos, romie, opticallyinvis and whoever else rip it apart...

Reidar

03-02-2006, 03:54 PM

Umm, cytogainer isn't high in fat....it's almost fat free, as well as lactose free....

610 cals per serving (4 scoops)
3.5g fat
84g carbs (only 5g being sugar, others are complexed maltodextrins)
54g protein
3g creatine
2g glutamine.

That nutritional info revealed that there actually isn't much fat (which is in stark contrast to most weightgainers, which isn't a bad thing because they quite frankly should have fat in them for their purpose) but brought to light that it's still not adequate for post-workout nutrition. There needs to be far more than 5g of sugar in your shake. Dextrose is one of the most essential ingredients.

heh, it's not like i do 3 hours everyday man. i say on some days i do up to 3 hours. but usually that's when I have so much adreneline running through me I just keep going and going. that's how i found i could do 2 plates. i'm pushing my body to the limits, but this is only on certains days man.

Haha, that's cool, just throwing that out there for benefits.

300 lb Eugene

03-02-2006, 04:17 PM

Yall may not be into this....but Cats has a lot of good protein and high in amino acids.
Dogs too...Try some, its good...:china:

BrazilionBH

03-02-2006, 04:39 PM

BrazilionBH

03-02-2006, 04:45 PM

Yall may not be into this....but Cats has a lot of good protein and high in amino acids.
Dogs too...Try some, its good...:china:So do babies.

Chaos

03-02-2006, 05:39 PM

Glutamine has NEVER been shown in a double blind study to be useful in muscle building or anti-catabolic functions when taken orally. Period. Any study in which it has been shown benificient is in burn or aids victims with severe wasting and it is given via IV. The oral bioavailability is poor. There have been literature reviews lately that look at immense (50+) papers on the compound and determine it is not really useful except for extreme catabolic states.

adonis_minus_20

03-02-2006, 05:53 PM

Alright jim...to have muscle definition, ur going to have to build muscle...25 rep sets with 10lb dumbells and a diet that's clearly deficient of nutritional value isn't going to build muscle...no offense man...not saying you won't lose weight though...ur going to burn through a ton of muscle and fat in the process...and if you start to gain weight again, it will all be fat and you will be worse off than before...

Starting out can be tough, especially if ur goal is a body recompsition. You're going to have to either get a home gym or a gym membership....you must have access to SOME kind of free weights or equipment...once you get that, somebody can help you put together a good program....for a beginner like yourself, full body routines, circuit style, 3 times a week would be fine...You have also got to start eating more...and I don't mean bullshit like popcorn either....we're talking grilled fish, grilled chicken, rice, oatmeal, eggs, tuna etc. 5-6 times a day minimum...you will have no desire to snack if you're eating every 2-3 hours...

Hope that helps some..

Thanks for the feedback. I see you're saying I need to eat more (and high protein, healthy foods), but I want to lose weight. I was only going to do this more restrictive diet temporarily to lose some weight, and then increase to something more like you're saying. Is this a bad way to do it? If I eat more now, how will I lose weight? I guess I wanted to lose more weight in the short term quickly, and then change my diet and continue with the exercise.

Yeah, I have to get some equipment, or a membership somewhere. What's a good program for someone just starting out with weight training? What exercises, number of sets, reps, etc.?

BTW, I'm in my 30's if that matters at all.

Thanks again.

Jim

fernando's nuts

03-02-2006, 06:15 PM

Sexperienced.

03-02-2006, 06:33 PM

Yeah hes a porn star.

King Kong Chilli? (or whatever his name is)

fernando's nuts

03-02-2006, 06:45 PM

Reidar

03-02-2006, 08:14 PM

Reidar

03-02-2006, 08:19 PM

quick question, Im takin a stack (no-xplode pre workout, an cell mass post workout) along with the usual nitrix tabs (2 tabs 3x daily) my question is when is it best for me to take my protein? My diet usually consists of tuna, green apples, pasta, some random fish, steak, an green beans, all mixed up durin the week. I ask since readin from websights that its best to take these supplements on an empty stomach, granted I eat like 5-6 portions of food daily (just snackin mostly with my breakfast bein the bigger of the meals), an to those that ask, yeah that stack does work, I haven't felt this in shape in a while, granted I do about 20 min of cardio 4x. Any info is appreciated ty!

Don't waste your money on NO2 products like No-XPLODE. Also, Cell Mass isn't adequate post-workout nutrition (and again is an over-priced supplement that you don't need). You need whey protein mixed with a 50/50 ratio of dextrose and maltodextrin, with a pinch of salt.

About your second post, muscle mass comes from eating like a savage more than a specific rep scheme. Definition comes from cardio. If you want definition, run. Your weight-lifting regime doesn't change when you're cutting weight.

BrazilionBH

03-02-2006, 08:54 PM

quick question, Im takin a stack (no-xplode pre workout, an cell mass post workout) along with the usual nitrix tabs (2 tabs 3x daily) my question is when is it best for me to take my protein? My diet usually consists of tuna, green apples, pasta, some random fish, steak, an green beans, all mixed up durin the week. I ask since readin from websights that its best to take these supplements on an empty stomach, granted I eat like 5-6 portions of food daily (just snackin mostly with my breakfast bein the bigger of the meals), an to those that ask, yeah that stack does work, I haven't felt this in shape in a while, granted I do about 20 min of cardio 4x. Any info is appreciated ty!You should drink your protein shakes directly after your workouts and on off days you can take them at night.Its better to take egg and milk protein shakes at night though because its a slower release than whey and sits alittle better in the stomache.

BrazilionBH

03-02-2006, 09:01 PM

MagnusMadness

03-02-2006, 09:41 PM

That nutritional info revealed that there actually isn't much fat (which is in stark contrast to most weightgainers, which isn't a bad thing because they quite frankly should have fat in them for their purpose) but brought to light that it's still not adequate for post-workout nutrition. There needs to be far more than 5g of sugar in your shake. Dextrose is one of the most essential ingredients.

Haha, that's cool, just throwing that out there for benefits.

I was always under the impression that maltodextrins were actually indexed higher than sugar....even though they are "complex" carbs...so why isn't that sufficient??

And is there some product that DOES have all these wonderful things rolled into one??

JuiceM0nkey

03-02-2006, 09:51 PM

Alright guys, I'm off to the Arnold Classic this weekend. I'll be sure to take a bunch of pics of all the juicy hardbody ladies.........ohh and some pro bodybuilders too...LOL !

I'm calling it out now, I have Dexter Jackson winning the show!

Looking forward to seeing all the new stuff they have out! I'll post some pics when I get back :wgrin:

Romie

03-02-2006, 10:02 PM

I'm gonna have to say Priest.

He pretty much demolished the competition at the Ironman. If he can dial it in like he did then, the Arnold goes to him.

Reidar

03-02-2006, 10:15 PM

I was always under the impression that maltodextrins were actually indexed higher than sugar....even though they are "complex" carbs...so why isn't that sufficient??

Yeah, but there's more to it than just a high GI rating. Dextrose combined with maltodextrin will drive an insulin spike far better than just maltodextrin alone.

And is there some product that DOES have all these wonderful things rolled into one??

Yeah, weightgainers. However, they have too many other ingredients for post-workout nutrition. I just order dextrose and maltodextrin for cheap off of www.bulknutrition.com. Dextrose is just $2 a bag, malto is $12 for a big container of it.

MagnusMadness

03-02-2006, 10:20 PM

sorry for the double post but while Im at it, I been goin to the gym for the past 4 months, and I am definately seeing results, anyhow another question I have is this, to build definition with some slight mass(muscle) gain, how should my workouts be? Alot of reps not so much weight, or is it light reps and alot of weight? Keep in mind Im taking the supplements I listed above, thanks again for the help!

Well definition and size are going to be more dependent on diet than training. Take two people carrying the same poundage of skeletal muscle tissue...the one with a slightly higher BF% will be bigger, while the other will be "more defined"

Now concerning rep ranges

1-5 reps: Most of what you will see are gains in strength, not size, if this is the rep range you train in mostly...reason being is with this kind of stress the Central Nervous System is shocked into making neural adaptations in terms of muscle fiber recruitment...you are basically using your body more efficiently...(Ronnie is strong but he's not setting any olympic powerlifting records any time soon)

6-12 reps: When you train with medium reps (6-12) the adaptations are more metabolic and cellular and only moderately neurological. This is why 6-12 reps is the range most often recommended for bodybuilding and hypertrophy. You get bigger and stronger in this rep range, but your strength gains are not maximal. This explains why some bodybuilders look stronger than they are.

13 reps+: When you train with higher reps (13-20+), the adaptations are mostly metabolic and cellular. It produces little hypertrophy in mitochondria and cappilaries and provides very little gains in strength....

I break down the second group into two parts 6-8 reps and 8-12 reps and periodize between the two, also manipulating volume and frequency. I recommend you do the same. And remember, when training in different rep schemes the intensity MUST CHANGE. By that I don't mean training to failure every set...but log the weights you use and exercises and don't use the weight for an 8 rep set that you could push 11-12 times, this is self defeating and makes "changing things up" pointless...

Everyone should have a logbook and a program. If you don't have a program, I recommend you go to IronMagazineForums.com....join and read the stickies in the training section and start asking questions....

MagnusMadness

03-02-2006, 10:28 PM

Yeah, but there's more to it than just a high GI rating. Dextrose combined with maltodextrin will drive an insulin spike far better than just maltodextrin alone.

Yeah, weightgainers. However, they have too many other ingredients for post-workout nutrition. I just order dextrose and maltodextrin for cheap off of www.bulknutrition.com. Dextrose is just $2 a bag, malto is $12 for a big container of it.

Alright, sounds good to me...what would you recommend post workout then?? In exact dosages??

Reidar

03-02-2006, 10:32 PM

If ya really want to get exact measurements right, you'd take your bodyfat percentage subtract it from your total weight to get your lean body weight, and then calculate how many grams of each you'd put with whey protein in the shake. This article explains it:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/windowofopportunity.php

And that bulknutrition.com site has good stuff, the ingredients (3 bags of dextrose and 1 container of maltodextrin for $28) I ordered from it have lasted me well over 6 months. Can't get that from GNC (but I get my whey from there).

Pryde

03-03-2006, 06:04 AM

Ya know it seems like everyone has their own way of working out.
When I first started working out, I used to eat Steak every single night for a month straight and I literally had 3 eggs over and easy in the morning (Yea, I know, not too good for the heart), but hey I'm still alive. I cut down on the eggs alot recently.

What do you guys make for a shake? Damn, this thread is too big for me to read through everything. I tend to mix Eggs (all whites), Organic Milk (good fucking milk), Peanut butter, a quart of ice cream (usually chocolate or caramel) , whey protein, and some peanut butter in my "protein" shake. Check it out, it's pretty god damn yummy, tastes just like Reese's pieces.

The Mullah

03-03-2006, 06:28 AM

3 hours in the gym is absolutely ridiculous ANY day, even if ur on HGH, insulin, test, and whatever else....I could BLITZ my ENTIRE body in 3 hours....

I seriously advise you to post up ur workout regimen and let me, chaos, romie, opticallyinvis and whoever else rip it apart...

a bit harsh, if it works for him great, no need to bash his workout style so hard. To many people that work out think it's either their way or the highway. pryde thanks for the info, i posted my picture a while back, i'm cool with the ladies!

for my shake i havei t with water, or have the good old tuna + mango juice shake.

Reidar

03-03-2006, 07:47 AM

Anyone in here do strength training/powerlifting? Seems like it's all bodybuilding workouts here.

Romie

03-03-2006, 07:59 AM

Anyone in here do strength training/powerlifting? Seems like it's all bodybuilding workouts here.

I did when I first started. Focused on deadlifts and squats. Bodybuilding came easier though. I put on muscle really fast.

I also didn't like the local powerlifting scene. Just a bunch of fucktards winning local competitions with horrible form. I pretty much gave up on it.

Reidar

03-03-2006, 10:05 AM

Haha, I'm the opposite. I started on bodybuilding but switched to get stronger. Most bodybuilders start on powerlifting anyways to build up vascularity. Yeah, powerlifters sometimes use bad form to get the heavy weight up, but I have to say everytime I go to the gym there's at least one guy having a spaz attack while trying to do bicep curls.

Romie

03-03-2006, 10:42 AM

Don't even talk about curls dude. 90% of the time I wanted to go to the squat rack, there's always some pencil hurting his back trying to "curl."

That's one of hte reason I'd rather work out at home.

Sexperienced.

03-04-2006, 11:18 AM

I only powerlift... Bodybuilding seems pointless to me.

MagnusMadness

03-04-2006, 04:33 PM

a bit harsh, if it works for him great, no need to bash his workout style so hard. To many people that work out think it's either their way or the highway. pryde thanks for the info, i posted my picture a while back, i'm cool with the ladies!

for my shake i havei t with water, or have the good old tuna + mango juice shake.

There's a GOOD reason you are supposed to keep volume under control and time spent in the gym...lifting weights is very strenuous activity....first you burn through ur blood sugar...then glycogen stores...now ur burning muscle and fat for energy....burning fat and muscle is not a goal of urs if ur into bodybuilding....causing hypertrophy to some degree is what you are after and it doesn't take 3 hours..

The other reason is when ur volume is out of control then you are headed for injury....especially if u aren't super supplementing...ur muscles can only take so much....and ur tendons and ligaments can take even less. If you are working upper body for 3 hours then ur shoulders are taking a beating for EVERY single bit of that 3 hours....

Only a novice thinks 3 hour workouts are necessary, even some of the time...

The Mullah

03-04-2006, 05:29 PM

Yeah thanks, but i'm not questioning your view but rather the way you put it across.

Chaos

03-04-2006, 07:42 PM

This entire article and its plethora of cited scientific journals proves you wrong: http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/glutamine.php

I won't waste my time but if you'd carefully read what you'd posted you realize the majority of the information on that thread is completely irrelevant to bodybuildig. Secondly you'd realize that literature reviews without actual board reviewed studies are worthless. I cannot anazlyze the science behind any of those studies because I'm not going to find the damn journals. And then you'd realize when it talked about anti-catabolism SURPRISE it says right there in HIV victims. Anyone can prove any point by posting random internet sites. Show me actual board reviewed journals that show glutamine works on normal healthy subjects with oral administration please.

JuiceM0nkey

03-04-2006, 07:52 PM

Anyone in here do strength training/powerlifting? Seems like it's all bodybuilding workouts here.

I compete in both, pushed up a 400lbs bench at the APF meet in Chicago in the 181lbs class last Nov 05

Now I'm dieting down for the Nationals in bodybuilding in 2 weeks!

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/31910153178.jpg&s=x11

Reidar

03-04-2006, 09:48 PM

I won't waste my time but if you'd carefully read what you'd posted you realize the majority of the information on that thread is completely irrelevant to bodybuildig. Secondly you'd realize that literature reviews without actual board reviewed studies are worthless. I cannot anazlyze the science behind any of those studies because I'm not going to find the damn journals. And then you'd realize when it talked about anti-catabolism SURPRISE it says right there in HIV victims. Anyone can prove any point by posting random internet sites. Show me actual board reviewed journals that show glutamine works on normal healthy subjects with oral administration please.

If you really want me to, I can easily copy and paste all the relevant pieces of info, but I'm not going to put it past your ability to do that yourself. Be kind of insulting to you if I did that.

Now, since glutamine is already a widely advocated supplement, it's you who has the burden of proof on their shoulders. You should be providing proof that disproves glutamine's benefits. Because that article has a PLETHORA of sources at the bottom.

And I completely fail to understand the logic behind you saying you're not going to take the time to look up every scientific journal listed. That's fine, but then don't make accusations of a lack of proof. The cited sources and proof are all there at your disposal at the bottom whenever you decide it's worth taking the time to research. After looking into those and finding a means of proving them false, then you'll have grounds to talk. Until then, saying "I'm not going to look up the damn articles" proves absolutely nothing for your argument.

Hoonyo

03-04-2006, 09:50 PM

guys... i was wondering what kind of fast food, if any, do you guys eat?

there's a local bagel shopi get a bagel sandwich from (egg+sausage+cheese) usually every morning. if i don't get it or wake up kinda late, i go to sonics and get one of their toaster sandwiches. i also get subway/quiznos footlong subs and eat half for lunch and the rest for dinner. i was wondering what else i could buy from food chains that's consider good/decent.

BrazilionBH

03-04-2006, 10:09 PM

You should always powerlift to see where your strength is.

Chaos

03-05-2006, 01:39 PM

If you really want me to, I can easily copy and paste all the relevant pieces of info, but I'm not going to put it past your ability to do that yourself. Be kind of insulting to you if I did that.

Now, since glutamine is already a widely advocated supplement, it's you who has the burden of proof on their shoulders. You should be providing proof that disproves glutamine's benefits. Because that article has a PLETHORA of sources at the bottom.

And I completely fail to understand the logic behind you saying you're not going to take the time to look up every scientific journal listed. That's fine, but then don't make accusations of a lack of proof. The cited sources and proof are all there at your disposal at the bottom whenever you decide it's worth taking the time to research. After looking into those and finding a means of proving them false, then you'll have grounds to talk. Until then, saying "I'm not going to look up the damn articles" proves absolutely nothing for your argument.

Glutamine isn't accepted as a supplement by most gurus with biochem backgrounds. It is hyped by people who are selling it as a do all when BCAA's are 10x better. Glutamine is perhaps the easiest amino for your body to synthesize, and also only acts as an ammonia carrier relative to exercise. You don't "lose" glutamine when you exercise, you only create it to suck up ammonia via a transfer chain. And btw people like Patrick Arnold and Par deus over from avant say glutamine is a waste of time, provide me with ammo from someone on their level of knowledge about nutrition and supplementation that does NOT have stake in selling it that likes the compound. Again to summarize, glutamine is easily synthesized, glutamine is not orally bioavailable to a great extent, and its useless unless your are severely weakended or under great stress (burn victims). It is mildly pointless in calorie deficit and totally ridiculous in calorie surplus.

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

MagnusMadness

03-05-2006, 09:57 PM

Glutamine isn't accepted as a supplement by most gurus with biochem backgrounds. It is hyped by people who are selling it as a do all when BCAA's are 10x better. Glutamine is perhaps the easiest amino for your body to synthesize, and also only acts as an ammonia carrier relative to exercise. You don't "lose" glutamine when you exercise, you only create it to suck up ammonia via a transfer chain. And btw people like Patrick Arnold and Par deus over from avant say glutamine is a waste of time, provide me with ammo from someone on their level of knowledge about nutrition and supplementation that does NOT have stake in selling it that likes the compound. Again to summarize, glutamine is easily synthesized, glutamine is not orally bioavailable to a great extent, and its useless unless your are severely weakended or under great stress (burn victims). It is mildly pointless in calorie deficit and totally ridiculous in calorie surplus.

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

**CLAPS**

I see double blind studies on other forums all the time but never on this page...I get sick and tired of people basing everything they believe on complete and utter bullshit they google on some obscure website...(this is NOT directed at reidar)

Thank you for bringing the realness back to this thread and shoryuken.fuckingcom...

mightimao

03-05-2006, 11:54 PM

i'm thinking about taking hydroxycut hardcore.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/hard.html

any thoughts / concerns?

Reidar

03-06-2006, 02:19 PM

Glutamine isn't accepted as a supplement by most gurus with biochem backgrounds. It is hyped by people who are selling it as a do all when BCAA's are 10x better. Glutamine is perhaps the easiest amino for your body to synthesize, and also only acts as an ammonia carrier relative to exercise. You don't "lose" glutamine when you exercise, you only create it to suck up ammonia via a transfer chain.

Strawman. Nobody is ever claiming that glutamine restores lost stores in your body from working out.

And btw people like Patrick Arnold and Par deus over from avant say glutamine is a waste of time, provide me with ammo from someone on their level of knowledge about nutrition and supplementation that does NOT have stake in selling it that likes the compound.

Eiji Nakamura and Susan J. Hagen, Alain Lavoinne, Ardawi, M. S. M., and E. A. Newsholme. I can keep listing more if you want.

Again to summarize, glutamine is easily synthesized, glutamine is not orally bioavailable to a great extent, and its useless unless your are severely weakended or under great stress (burn victims). It is mildly pointless in calorie deficit and totally ridiculous in calorie surplus.

Excess bodily ammonia (NH3) is extremely dangerous; side-effects such as coma and brain damage are common. NH3 is produced by the breakdown of amino acids. Glutamine acts as a nitrogen carrier in the body, transporting ammonia to the stomach in order to convert it to urea in the liver, or excreting it via the kidneys. Approximately 50% of the nitrogen excreted in the urine, as ammonium or urea, is a result of glutamine. The breakdown of GLN in epithelial cells results in bicarbonate ions (a buffer) and NH3. The bicarbonate is added to the blood, assisting regulation of pH, while the ammonia is released in the kidney by glutaminase. From here, NH3 rapidly bonds with protons to form ammonium (NH4+), which is then excreted with a co transport of sodium ions. As a result, a buffer is added to the blood stream, and acidic hydrogen ions are released via NH4+, effectively regulating pH .

This is very relevant to the athlete. During weight lifting, lactic acid is prevalent and severely inhibits athletic performance, for reasons such as an increased pH. Anything that raises your pH would enhance performance. Furthermore, the regulation of pH has been supported in several other scientific journals.

That pretty much counterpoints your study on how glutamine can actually be detrimental to the aspiring athlete. As you did, I could easily find an obscure study showing the enhanced performance that glutamine offers, but what would that prove? Those are used to support an explanation, not act as an explanation in and of itself. Why is glutamine unbeneficial when it boosts pH levels? Why doesn't it enhance recovery? What about the above explanation is wrong, and why specifically? That's what I'd be looking for in this.

MagnusMadness

03-06-2006, 08:45 PM

Strawman. Nobody is ever claiming that glutamine restores lost stores in your body from working out.

Eiji Nakamura and Susan J. Hagen, Alain Lavoinne, Ardawi, M. S. M., and E. A. Newsholme. I can keep listing more if you want.

Excess bodily ammonia (NH3) is extremely dangerous; side-effects such as coma and brain damage are common. NH3 is produced by the breakdown of amino acids. Glutamine acts as a nitrogen carrier in the body, transporting ammonia to the stomach in order to convert it to urea in the liver, or excreting it via the kidneys. Approximately 50% of the nitrogen excreted in the urine, as ammonium or urea, is a result of glutamine. The breakdown of GLN in epithelial cells results in bicarbonate ions (a buffer) and NH3. The bicarbonate is added to the blood, assisting regulation of pH, while the ammonia is released in the kidney by glutaminase. From here, NH3 rapidly bonds with protons to form ammonium (NH4+), which is then excreted with a co transport of sodium ions. As a result, a buffer is added to the blood stream, and acidic hydrogen ions are released via NH4+, effectively regulating pH .

This is very relevant to the athlete. During weight lifting, lactic acid is prevalent and severely inhibits athletic performance, for reasons such as an increased pH. Anything that raises your pH would enhance performance. Furthermore, the regulation of pH has been supported in several other scientific journals.

That pretty much counterpoints your study on how glutamine can actually be detrimental to the aspiring athlete. As you did, I could easily find an obscure study showing the enhanced performance that glutamine offers, but what would that prove? Those are used to support an explanation, not act as an explanation in and of itself. Why is glutamine unbeneficial when it boosts pH levels? Why doesn't it enhance recovery? What about the above explanation is wrong, and why specifically? That's what I'd be looking for in this.

Are you serious dude?? He posted a double blind scienticic study that supported his claim just as you asked him to and you are continuing to argue?? Is there ANYTHING that he COULD say to sway you in ur stance?? Probably not...and if that's the case then just agree to disagree. I for one will spend my money on FOOD. Well, and steroids....

And ur last argument is weak....no one is going into a coma from a glutamine deficiency....it's the most abundant amino acid in the body...and the oral bioavailability of glutamine is low...based on chaos' study it's not enough to make a difference in relation to bodybuilding...the proof is in the pudding....if you really want to argue this...then find another double blind study that found different results...

Chaos

03-06-2006, 11:02 PM

Reidar

03-06-2006, 11:29 PM

Are you serious dude?? He posted a double blind scienticic study that supported his claim just as you asked him to and you are continuing to argue?? Is there ANYTHING that he COULD say to sway you in ur stance?? Probably not...and if that's the case then just agree to disagree.

I'm asking for an explanation that contradicts mine. A study doesn't explain it, it shows a theoretical result under man-made circumstances by one party, as in this case.

Why would you even want me to sway my stance when you're taking advice from me already? Wouldn't you want me to back up what I say? As someone advocating health advice I have a responsibility not just to myself but to anyone I've helped to back up and defend my points.

I for one will spend my money on FOOD. Well, and steroids....

You should already be spending your money on food. The point of supplements is to enhance nutrition, not replace it.

And ur last argument is weak....no one is going into a coma from a glutamine deficiency....it's the most abundant amino acid in the body...and the oral bioavailability of glutamine is low...based on chaos' study it's not enough to make a difference in relation to bodybuilding...the proof is in the pudding....if you really want to argue this...then find another double blind study that found different results...

Once again, that's not the point of glutamine. You're not taking it because your body is deficient in it. You're taking it in excessively to enhance pH levels. If my argument is weak, please explain exactly how glutamine does not enhance pH levels and cited sources backing up your claim.

Reidar

03-06-2006, 11:38 PM

Now we've moved from effective for bodybuilding to helping performance, which it doesn't do either. Case in point.........

The purpose was to determine if glutamine supplementation would prevent a loss of lean mass in athletes during a 12-day weight reduction program. It was hypothesized that supplementation would spare lean body mass. Subjects (n=18) exercised and dieted to create a 4186kJ·day-1 energy deficit and a 8372 kJ·day-1 energy deficit on days 1-5, days 6-12, respectively. The glutamine (GLN) group (n=9) ingested 0.35 g·kg-1 body mass of glutamine while a placebo was administered to the remaining subjects. Body mass (BM), lean body mass (LBM) and fat mass (FM), were measured at days 0, 6, and 12. GLN and placebo groups both lost significant amounts of BM, LBM and FM. There were no significant differences between groups. The findings indicate little benefit for retention of lean mass with supplementation of glutamine during a short-term weight reduction program.

Glutamine supplementation did not benefit athletes during short-term
weight reduction
Kevin, J. Finn, Robin Lund and Mona Rosene-Treadwell
http://www20.uludag.edu.tr/%7Ehakan/...4/7/v2n4-7.htm

Chief, throwing studies like that with no explanation of your own does nothing. At all. There are thousands upon thousands of studies out there. The thing is, you're using it AS your argument, rather than a final topping to support your explanation. The problem is you're letting the study do the explaining, which doesn't work. Case in point:

" Hankard et al. investigated glutamine’s benefits in comparison to glycine (an amino acid) [49]. It was concluded that, “glutamine enteral infusion may exert its protein anabolic effect by increasing protein synthesis, whereas an isonitrogenous amount of glycine merely decreases protein turnover with only a small anabolic effect resulting from a greater decrease in proteolysis than protein synthesis.” To test glutamine’s attenuation of cell apoptosis (programmed cell termination), neutrophils were observed for 3, 24, and 48 hours in the absence or presence of glutamine (0.5, 1.0, and 2.0 mM respectively) [131]. The results showed that escherichia coli phagocytosis was much higher, and the maintenances of mitochondrial transmembrane potential was 20-38% higher in the presence of glutamine. These effects were additive and helped slow apoptosis."

There. A study relevant to human bodybuilders to counter your own. Have you walked away more enlightened from this? I can throw another study at you if you want as you have done. Does that prove anything? No. You're not giving your own explanation. You're countering MY explanation. You're not saying WHY glutamine doesn't enhance pH. You're not saying WHY enhancing pH would be beneficial. Nobody is saying any of this because they're just copying and pasting studies. Until I get valid arguments, my stance is rooted with abcbodybuilding which so far is the undisputed king of nutrition info. How do I know this? Nobody else is able to specifically counter their points to prove them wrong, and nobody ever matches their gargantuan resources of cited scientific journals.

MagnusMadness

03-06-2006, 11:56 PM

Why would you even want me to sway my stance when you're taking advice from me already? Wouldn't you want me to back up what I say? As someone advocating health advice I have a responsibility not just to myself but to anyone I've helped to back up and defend my points.

.

Whoa there chiefton...I was merely picking ur brain as to what you consider to be "proper PW nutrition." I rarely take advice from people I don't know....as I have a very firm grasp on the subject at hand already...I am however always interested in the newest scientific studies being done...and the latest crackpot theories too...

Chaos is one person I listen to though, I know him personally and he knows his shit backwards and forwards....the med school thing might have something to do with that though. He's also the first and only person I've talked endocrinology with in person that was on the level....when he speaks I listen, and people on this thread would be wise to do the same...

And if you understand the nature and the point of the studies, and why he cited them in relation to the argument at hand....it needs no explanation...but here ya go...I'll speak for chaos...

In the first double blind study, glutamine made no significant differences in relation to bodybuilding...

In the second study done in a caloric deficit....glutamine did nothing to preserve LBM....

Therefore...glutamine is worthless to young healthy males in regards to bodybuilding and strength training....

And ur study isn't a double blind study to see the differences in two groups in regards to certain goals both groups have in relation to bodybuilding or strength training...

Reidar

03-06-2006, 11:59 PM

Yeah, but I mean, if you think I'm wrong in one aspect of nutrition, why would I be right in another? If abcbodybuilding.com had even one unreliable article, my whole image of it would be ruined because that speaks of their reputation as a whole. I would think that one would only go for what they know is the best source.

And that's not what I'm looking for because that's not an explanation. You stated a statement and then said "There, that's why." Counter my specific points that I've layed out above.

Chaos

03-07-2006, 12:44 PM

Glutamine has NEVER been shown in a double blind scientific study to increase muscle gain. I have posted two articles that show it does not do so, and the article that proves that it does is not in existance. For a laugh what dosage do you prescribe glutamine supplementation at?

That study is laughable. It talks about the effect of glutamine on neutrophil cells, implicating it is not even an in vivo study, but an in vitro one. Also note it talks about enteral infusion, which may bypass one of the plethora of problems of glutamine, oral bioavailability. I hardly think prolonging cell life by altering apoptosis timing is the same thing as increasing muscle mass. My studies are DIRECTLY related to the point at hand, does glutamine help weight training athletes gain mass. They say no. Your convoluted arguements are no offense against double blind SPECIFIC topic related studies. Face it.

HeaT

03-07-2006, 03:19 PM

O.............M.............G

i want to look like these women!

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/1740.html

wow man, that shit is hardcore...

im outi

Roberth

Reidar

03-07-2006, 03:19 PM

Rhio2k

03-07-2006, 04:40 PM

O.............M.............G

i want to look like these women!

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/1740.html

wow man, that shit is hardcore...

im outi

Roberth

I want to **** with those women...you see how they were going down on those ding-dongs right before going on stage? :wow:

BloodRiotIori

03-07-2006, 04:55 PM

Reidar

03-07-2006, 05:19 PM

Creatine will retain water weight, so you will in that sense look bigger from that alone. However, since it allows you to train harder, you're likely to put on mass and strength more efficiently.

Chaos

03-07-2006, 08:48 PM

Magus said before that it's the most abundant amino acid in your body and that there's need to worry about it falling under supply. I was wondering where the source of that info comes from? Whatever article it was, did it take into account the fact that under severe stress, your ability to produce this amino acid decreases?

And Chaos, that was just one study because, like I said, I don't use studies as the basis of argument. They're there to further support your point, not make the point itself. And here is a study that does show it increases muscle gain:

"Alain Lavoinne et al. further investigated glutamine and intestinal protein synthesis/degradation [86]. Two groups of healthy humans were given either glutamine (group 1) or saline (salt containing) or isonitrogenous aminos (group 2). The glutamine group had a significantly greater increase in the rate of mucosal protein synthesis compared to saline. Furthermore, ubiquitin (a protein which promotes proteolysis) mRNA was greatly decreased after taking glutamine in relation to group two. This would effectively limit mucosal (mucous membrane) protein degradation, and may be imperative in prohibiting intestinal inflammation and mucosal damage, which supports the previous topic on gut protection. Thus, glutamine has once again shown to not only have anabolic effects, but anti-catabolic ones as well."

Anabolism is what every bodybuilder strives for, and glutamine has been shown to increase its effects.

Ok Reidar I'm not trying to come off as an elitist but your are digging a deeper hole for yourself. First of all you tell Magnus ...........

"Whatever article it was, did it take into account the fact that under severe stress, your ability to produce this amino acid decreases?"

How many times do I have to tell you that working out is NOT SEVERE STRESS. They are referring to burn victims and severely immunocompromised individuals. Please get this into your head as a primary fact.

Secondly you are basically posting studies that are jackshit related to skeletal muscle. SMOOTH INTESTINAL MUSCLE IS NOT SKELETAL MUSCLE. That article has NOTHING to do with lean muscle mass gains. Nada. Zip. Zelch. You see my studies? Specifically related to lean muscle mass gain, not some trivial aspect of mucosal membrane protein function. And I note you did not give me your prescribed dosing, waiting for someone on another board to feed you that information as well?

I'm not even going to grace your pseudoscience theory with an answer. Why? Because your fundamental view of science is incorrect. It is not up to people with theories to have their particular theory disproven. It is up to those people to provide scientific studies proving their point. I could give a shit about PH. I care about oral glutamine supplementation in healthy lifters and if it boosts LMM gains. So far I have posted two studies saying it does not. And you have posted none, because one doesn't exist. So until you give me one that does, quit sidetracking into diluted PH arguements that are secondary to the main issue.

Reidar

03-07-2006, 09:49 PM

I never get the "digging a deeper hole" warning. I'm not debating for the sake of disagreement. I'm debating because I see something differently and want to settle it. If I'm proven false, I come away learning something. Maybe if you view this as some sort of pissing contest, then sure, but I don't.

How many times do I have to tell you that working out is NOT SEVERE STRESS. They are referring to burn victims and severely immunocompromised individuals. Please get this into your head as a primary fact.

Yes, it is. Following a workout, muscle glycogen stores are depleted, and many muscle proteins are also broken down, leaving the body in a deficit state. As more and more glycogen and glucose is burned up for energy, blood glucose levels begin to drop-off, which in turn cause insulin levels to drop drastically. That is a very vital step to grasp because of the properties insulin has in relation to protein synthesis and anabolic hormone production. These drops give rise to the catabolic hormone Cortisol, which you undoubtly know about.

Now, if you're comparing working out to fighting a fucking war or something, then comparitively it's not stressful. But it's a subjective term, and one that you are using to make claims about. Your body is under stress after heavy lifting. When you lift heavy, you damage and tear your muscle fibers. That's stress and that's what I'm talking about, and you know it.

Secondly you are basically posting studies that are jackshit related to skeletal muscle. SMOOTH INTESTINAL MUSCLE IS NOT SKELETAL MUSCLE. That article has NOTHING to do with lean muscle mass gains. Nada. Zip. Zelch. You see my studies? Specifically related to lean muscle mass gain, not some trivial aspect of mucosal membrane protein function. And I note you did not give me your prescribed dosing, waiting for someone on another board to feed you that information as well?

Yes, it does. The point was to prove glutamine's anabolic properties, which affects muscle gains throughout your body. Read the concluding sentence. Anabolism = universally good.

And what I take is 5g of glutamine post-workout with my shake and 5g again before bed. Don't know why you have to resort to accusing me of feeding off of other's info, though; it's immature, pointless, and really doesn't bode well in an attempt to enlighten others of whatever you're trying to say.

I'm not even going to grace your pseudoscience theory with an answer. Why? Because your fundamental view of science is incorrect. It is not up to people with theories to have their particular theory disproven. It is up to those people to provide scientific studies proving their point. I could give a shit about PH. I care about oral glutamine supplementation in healthy lifters and if it boosts LMM gains. So far I have posted two studies saying it does not. And you have posted none, because one doesn't exist. So until you give me one that does, quit sidetracking into diluted PH arguements that are secondary to the main issue.

What you think is sidetracking is relevant to the serious lifter. It seems like you're in some sort of nutrition tunnel vision. ALL of these affect you. pH levels are VERY relevant to what we're discussing. During weight lifting, lactic acid is prevalent and severely inhibits athletic performance, for reasons such as an increased pH. Anything that raises your pH would enhance performance by reducing these catabolic properties. That's just one aspect of glutamine, and it's explained here: http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/activerecovery.htm

Everything I have discussed is relevant; I just assumed you'd be able to put two and two together and realize how exactly for yourself. Instead, you've just said that you don't care about pH and lactic acid build-up, or an insulin spike, or increased glycogen restoration, or anabolic boosts. I assumed you would be able to see how those correlate to muscle mass increases because they're such elementary concepts, and I kept your reputation on the matter in mind.

My point in this is that the studies I posted are relevant because those secondary issues you tossed aside are what can hamper lean muscle gains.

BrazilionBH

03-07-2006, 09:51 PM

Glutamine is so fucking cheap so who really cares about if it works or not just buy it try it and if you dont like the results your out what maybe 8 buck.

Chaos

03-07-2006, 11:15 PM

Please don't give me a basic lecture on mucle states following exercise. The point I am making is that any study showing a positive effect of glutamine supplementation meets two criteria

1. IV or other non-oral administration
2. Burn victims or severly immunocompromised subjects

Secondly if you think any show of an anabolic or protein sparing effect on any cell in the body is relevant to bodybuilding, I don't even know where to start. If said effects are not occuring in the skeletal muscle cells they are not relevant to lean muscle mass gains. I don't care if your neutrophil membrane changes, that might help your immune system. I don't care if it changes gastric protein function, thats a digestive tract improvement. Why can you not understand that skeletal muscle is skeletal muscle and thats all we care about?

Thirdly I assuming this was your dosage pattern. Grossly underdosed and a total waste of money, seeing as how the oral bioavailability of the product means you lose around 82% of that glutamine at a bare minumum. If you said 30 grams a day maybe you could possibly see some benefit under some circumstances.

You broaden this discussion by introducing more and more factors of anabolism, I can only assume hoping you'll reach a depth over my head and I'll bow down to your big picture arguement. To say that I don't care about glycogen consumption and insulin spikes is absolutely ludicrous, and I never said anything remotely resembling that comment.

This is the problem you don't seem to grasp, glutamine has been PROVEN in DOUBLE BLIND SCIENTIFIC STUDIES not to work. Why therefor is the ball in my court to disprove your theory about PH levels? If said mechanism worked, then guess what, in the studies glutamine would have.............WORKED. But it did not, and you cannot provide anything related to skeletal muscle that says it does. You just continue to say studies (which are factual) don't prove points but theories (which are unproven and theoretical) do. That is one of the most deranged views of science I have ever heard.

MagnusMadness

03-07-2006, 11:32 PM

Chaos for president!!

MagnusMadness

03-07-2006, 11:42 PM

quick q regarding creatine

I've already searched and read various posts in this thread regarding creatine, so I'm aware of some things, but:

I'm currently trying to bulk up as much as I can. I have a new diet plan I'm sticking to in terms of proteins, carbs, supplements and all that jazz. I'm also working out regular (only abdominal area for now, until I put on weight), so I'm not in for the quick fix at all.

Will creatine supplements help me get big? I'm not bothered about being ripped/lean muscle machine for now, as I need to get the bigger build first, then I can work with that to sculp the body I want. But I need to get big, will creatine help me out here?

Am I reading this right?? You are only working the abdominal area?? Are you just doing crunches and sit ups??

If this is the case then you need to stop wasting money on supps and get a gym membership first...it may take you months to get in the groove of weight training regularly with any degree of efficiency.

If you eat like a madman and only do crunches and sit ups...and take creatine...you will ONLY put on water weight and fat. I want to say this again....romie has said this before and it's still just as true....Muscle and Fat are two completely different types of tissue....you can't "turn" muscle into fat and fat doesn't "turn" into muscle...EVER....PERIOD. You need to start weight training seriously first before you start packing on the weight or it will all be fat and then you will have no choice but to lose the fat while trying to build muscle and body recompisitions are TOUGH.

On an unrelated note....I hurt my back today.....AGAIN. I hate my gym. I was doing hack squats on the hack sled today and I went down on the second rep and almost felt something pop...I immediately racked it and got up....hurts like hell right now. I'll be going BACK to the chiro this week or next for sure...prolly get x rays this time.

Reidar

03-07-2006, 11:55 PM

Please don't give me a basic lecture on mucle states following exercise. The point I am making is that any study showing a positive effect of glutamine supplementation meets two criteria

1. IV or other non-oral administration
2. Burn victims or severly immunocompromised subjects

Not this one:

"To test these two powerhouses in combination with each other; an eight-week experiment was performed on 29 athletes by Mark Lehmkuhl et al. [73]. They utilized three groups: a placebo (P) group (.03 g of placebo per kg of body mass, and 4 more grams of placebo per day) a creatine monohydrate (CM) group (.03 g of CM per kg of body mass, and 4 more grams of placebo per day) and a creatine/glutamine (CG) group (.03 g of CM per kg of body mass, and 4 more grams of glutamine per day). Furthermore, they used a double blind test, which means that the subjects and scientists performing the experiment did not know which group they were in; only those overseeing the tests did. Additionally, the diet and training programs were identical for each group. The results showed that the CM and CG group displayed the highest level of performance, and further that the CG group achieved better results than the CM group. The CG and CM groups displayed a significant increase in body mass, LBM, and initial rate of power production during multiple cycle ergometer bouts. The results of the CG group were better than the CM and P groups."

This was a double-blind study done on athletes with orally-ingested supplements.

Everything I've posted was still relevant. You're saying your immune system has nothing to do with lean muscle mass. That's ridiculous. If every part of your body isn't functioning at its peak, you won't grow as efficiently.
Case in point: most bodybuilders take multi-vitamins as an essential part of their diet, and it's not because it in itself increases muscle mass.

I also stand by my point that studies by themselves don't provide adequate proof. You need multiple studies with a defining conclusionary explanation stating the circumstances overviewing the entire presentation. There are too many variables that come into play during an experiment.

The Mullah

03-08-2006, 05:36 AM

On an unrelated note....I hurt my back today.....AGAIN. I hate my gym. I was doing hack squats on the hack sled today and I went down on the second rep and almost felt something pop...I immediately racked it and got up....hurts like hell right now. I'll be going BACK to the chiro this week or next for sure...prolly get x rays this time.

i had a whole slew of lower back problems from rounding my back as i went below parralel on squats, hackquats and on the first portion of the lying down hamstring curl machine.

you goin dangerously low? how tall are you?

Chaos

03-08-2006, 11:18 AM

Magnus sorry to hear about your back man, hope the Xrays come back ok. If you do make it back see if you can grab that Doctors number for me and I'll give him a call. I have national boards in 10 days so I"m really seriously busy.

Reidar if your going to the extreme of including improved immune function being directly related to lean muscle mass game then perhaps you possible have somewhat of a point. I understand the importance of global wellness but there are questions about the efficacy of glutamine on the immune system as well. I have no stance on its functions other than as directly relates to gaining muscle as I haven't studied them though. That study is ill designed and shows really nothing, as they pollute the data on glutamine by pairing it with the one unarguably effective non-hormonal bodybuilding aid (besides food which I put in a different catagory) creatine. Secondly I don't see statistically values either which is odd in an abstract. "Better" does not mean "significantly better" or "statistically better" you dig?

Heres the explanation you so strive to hear. Glutamine is a non-essential, easily synthesizable amino acid. Oral bioavailability means dosing needs to be on a mega basis to reach suitable levels to affect any change. The body is perfectly capable of synthesizing all it needs and has been shown as able to do so on diets containing NO glutamine. It would be my conjecture, starting from the fact that studies prove this stuff doesn't work, that relative to PH levels availability of glutamine for substrate binding is not the limiting step the PH/lactic acid chain. This would explain why supplementation (what actually gets from point a to point b) doesn't help. Its quite possible the limiting step is enzyme limited by a kinase or reductase further down the line, meaning that even if glutamine bound up more ions that it still couldn't be processed. Or it could be a catalyst is required for glutamine to bond ions and thats the limiting step.

In conclusion we basically KNOW that glutamine levels don't affect muscle gain, so any reason why is pie in the sky. I mean this is like me saying I have this great theory on why Bigfoot exists, he is the missing link and he is in caveman drawings or whatever, and forcing you to refute my missing link arguement rather than accepting 1000's of hours of searching have turned up nothing.

JuiceM0nkey

03-08-2006, 07:07 PM

Ok sorry it took so long for me to post these pics. Let me know what ya think?
And yes I did just wake up...LOL, this last 4 week diet is freakin killing my energy levels. I'm exactly 3 weeks from competetion today, so I'll try and post pics here weekly till show time!!

BTW, I'm really flat right now because of the low carbs, I should blow back up when I start carb loading the last 3 days before contest time. Doing the middle wt class which is 156 to 176 lbs. Planning on stepping on stage right at 175!

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=2/5518120741.jpg&s=x402

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=2/5518132355.jpg&s=x402

Alright here are my ten day out pics, competition is on next Sat. Still feel real flat till I start carb loading next wed. Weighing in at 180 right now, need to weigh in at 176 to make it to the top of the middle wt division which is 156 - 176.

I'll post here again that last day on friday. This low carb shit is killing me....I'm actually dreaming of food at night. LOL!!!

http://x10.putfile.com/3/6619584865.jpg (http://www.putfile.com)

http://x10.putfile.com/3/6619592862.jpg (http://www.putfile.com)

Chaos

03-08-2006, 07:55 PM

Very nice good luck in your contest. Chest is outstanding. Legs could use some work, but hey who doesn't have legs that could use some mass. That is a pretty damn good middleweight package if your last ten days go well I expect you to do some damage.

MagnusMadness

03-08-2006, 09:36 PM

i had a whole slew of lower back problems from rounding my back as i went below parralel on squats, hackquats and on the first portion of the lying down hamstring curl machine.

you goin dangerously low? how tall are you?

My back doesn't round when I squat but at the very bottom I might lean forward a bit....but squats don't/never have hurt my back...EXCEPT when I used to do smith squats...that's how I originally hurt my back well over a year ago.

I'm only 5' 10"

My stance and flexibility allow me to go just below parallel at the lowest....I can just about damn near SET the bar on the safety rails and squat out. Comparitively speaking, my back is strong as hell in general, lats and lower...when I squat it feels like I have a board tied to my back. But ever since I hurt my back a long time ago...I haven't REALLY been able to push it on leg day.

Chaos

03-08-2006, 09:41 PM

Just a reminder of why smith machine squats suck to all of you out there doing them. They lock into a range of motion which is not where the strength of your supporting muscular groups are and actually greatly increase your injury risk (assuming proper stance and technique in both instances).

opticallyinviz

03-08-2006, 10:32 PM

anyone watch the arnold classic?
melvon anthony won the best poser award for a routine that he saw one of my friends do at a local show when he was here in canada last fall...heh

edit: guy i train with just sent me this... http://www.animalpak.com/sub/teaser.html

gunjack_fever

03-08-2006, 10:37 PM

i don;t know if it has been posted but what are the pros and cons of using machines and free weights. thanks in advance.

Reidar

03-08-2006, 10:58 PM

Chaos, I consider the immunity aspect an important one. That's why multi-vitamins are used by lifters and why bodybuilding sources advocate eight hours of sleep a night or plenty of water throughout the day. By themselves, do they build up muscle mass? No. But then again, what does on its own? Weightlifting by itself won't build mass if you don't eat. Protein by itself won't build mass if you don't lift.

The subjects in that study showed greater improvements with creatine paired with glutamine than creatine alone. That shows the affect that the presence of the additional supplement has.

I also haven't seen any specific studies proving against the matter of the body providing stable amounts of amino acids under stress such as lifting.

My point is this: glutamine isn't like protein. I'm not saying it directly builds muscle mass, and I never have said that. What I did say is that the benefits that it provides for your immune system (which you agreed with) and the prevention of lactic acid build-up is in correlation with more gains because your body has extra help in healing.

Gunjack: freeweights will force you to encorporate more stabilizer muscles, which will lead to better gains in the long run. I only use machines on certain leg exercises, like extensions and leg curls.

opticallyinviz

03-08-2006, 11:16 PM

BCAA's > Glutamine. Gg.

BrazilionBH

03-08-2006, 11:54 PM

Glutamine is the coolest.

MagnusMadness

03-09-2006, 02:38 AM

BCAA's > Glutamine. Gg.

Since you brought that up.....what are your opinions on adding that into shakes....as most GOOD protein powders should already have good branching...

Chaos, BCAA's? Yay or nay??

I'm starting my next cycle next week chaos....besides an awesome diet and workout regimine.....what supps MUST I have?? (non cycle related, I'm already getting HCG and aromasin and even some T3)

The Mullah

03-09-2006, 05:19 AM

Alright here are my ten day out pics, competition is on next Sat. Still feel real flat till I start carb loading next wed. Weighing in at 180 right now, need to weigh in at 176 to make it to the top of the middle wt division which is 156 - 176.

I'll post here again that last day on friday. This low carb shit is killing me....I'm actually dreaming of food at night. LOL!!!

http://x10.putfile.com/3/6619584865.jpg (http://www.putfile.com)

http://x10.putfile.com/3/6619592862.jpg (http://www.putfile.com)

wow, what a great side chest. Well done juice, could you share your exact method of losing all your fat? ie what /how much cardio, and what/how much food you eat , suppliments taken etc.

looking forward to the final pics!

opticallyinviz

03-09-2006, 10:04 AM

Bcaa shakes are meant to be taken during pre and during your workout, not with your PWO shake.

Xtend is my saviour.

MagnusMadness

03-09-2006, 11:08 AM

I went to the chiro today....he didn't take x rays because the pain is muscular...apparently I strained the muscles in my back...he could tell this because the pain was on both sides of my back but not in the spine...he did some adjustments, told me to ice every 2 hours and don't workout for a week.

His number is (205) 923-0151, I forgot to mention you when I went though, so it's not like he's expecting ur call.

Reidar

03-09-2006, 01:16 PM

Man, I've gone through that. Back pains are one of the worst, good luck with that.

MagnusMadness

03-09-2006, 03:07 PM

Man, I've gone through that. Back pains are one of the worst, good luck with that.

It's weird though, my back is STRONG...and I strain it on a hack squat machine? WTF. Only thing I can think of is that my hammies are so tight that any hip dominant movement is pulling hellaciously on my lower back. But I can't just NOT work out legs until I become more flexible...This is a huge setback for me.

Reidar

03-10-2006, 08:55 AM

MagnusMadness

03-10-2006, 09:12 AM

Mine went away in a few days, but the day it happened it was especially severe. I literally couldn't move. It happened on doing squats (fuck, I can deadlift 400 fine, but I hurt my back doing squats??). Is yours any better?

Yeah it keeps getting better...I just worry about when it will be 100%. And if I'll hurt it again. This isn't the first time.

Morphiend

03-12-2006, 09:13 AM

Soldier Zero

03-12-2006, 09:29 AM

i have a question about how much weight i should use for whatever workout and how many reps i should do at that weight? should i start at something i feel comfortable at and do a lot or something that i have trouble with and do a little less?

Depends on what you're doing. Usually for certain machines and benching, try starting out with 50-65 percent of your body weight.

Anyone know some ways to get ready or train for shot put at home? I still need to get a physical so I'm gonna miss a practice or two this week (on top of missing this week's that just went by).

MagnusMadness

03-12-2006, 10:04 PM

i have a question about how much weight i should use for whatever workout and how many reps i should do at that weight? should i start at something i feel comfortable at and do a lot or something that i have trouble with and do a little less?

I love questions like these...alright, how much weight you use in relation to ur 1 rep max is a variable otherwise referred to as "intensity." For instance if I can bench 200lbs 1 time, then if I work out with 100lbs then that would be 50% of my 1 rep max...as I increase the weight and get closer to my 1 rep max, of course I can't do as many reps and the "intensity" is higher...

There are 3 "basic" ways of training....strength, size, and endurance...the 3 do overlap somewhat but in general....training with high intensity with reps ranging from 1-5 reps is going to net you the best gains in strength...because your central nervous system is going to make neural adaptions to recruit more of the already existing muscle fibers into the lift...training in this rep range will not net you the best gains in size however...if that's what you want then you should be looking at set reps ranging from 6-12 reps...neural adaptions are moderate but now you are also causing hypertrophy (growth) in muscle cells. This rep range will net you the most gains in size and also good gains in strength as well. Now that leaves us with endurance training...13+ rep sets will cause minimal neural adaptions and very little hypertrophy...but you will increase muscular endurance and increase your threshold for lactic acid.

Now I'm not advocating training to muscular failure on every set (I.E. if you are shooting for 12 reps then on the 12th rep you can't finish) But it should be pretty damn close. That's the whole point of training at different levels of intensity. If I am doing a 12 rep set I shouldn't use weight that I can do 20 times...now I'm doing absolutely nothing but wasting my time.

Now if you are training for size...I would recommend breaking up the 6-12 rep range into two groups, 6-8 rep sets, and 8-12 rep sets and go back and forth on a regular basis...not necessarily doing different exercises all the time, but changing intensity, volume, and frequency are the basis of successful programs geared towards muscle growth.

So basically, you should either train to failure on the different exercises you do, or max out...and that should definitely tell you what weight you should be working out with. If you get some maxes and would like to know how much weight you should be doing per working sets...post up and I can calculate that as well.

Hope that helps, if you have any questions holla back.

Depends on what you're doing. Usually for certain machines and benching, try starting out with 50-65 percent of your body weight.

.

So I should work out with 100lbs on the bench press?? Let's see I could prolly do that at least 30 times...

Did you mean to say 50-65% of ur 1RM?? Because ur 1RM is the determining factor not bodyweight.

Morphiend

03-12-2006, 11:12 PM

I love questions like these...alright, how much weight you use in relation to ur 1 rep max is a variable otherwise referred to as "intensity." For instance if I can bench 200lbs 1 time, then if I work out with 100lbs then that would be 50% of my 1 rep max...as I increase the weight and get closer to my 1 rep max, of course I can't do as many reps and the "intensity" is higher...

There are 3 "basic" ways of training....strength, size, and endurance...the 3 do overlap somewhat but in general....training with high intensity with reps ranging from 1-5 reps is going to net you the best gains in strength...because your central nervous system is going to make neural adaptions to recruit more of the already existing muscle fibers into the lift...training in this rep range will not net you the best gains in size however...if that's what you want then you should be looking at set reps ranging from 6-12 reps...neural adaptions are moderate but now you are also causing hypertrophy (growth) in muscle cells. This rep range will net you the most gains in size and also good gains in strength as well. Now that leaves us with endurance training...13+ rep sets will cause minimal neural adaptions and very little hypertrophy...but you will increase muscular endurance and increase your threshold for lactic acid.

Now I'm not advocating training to muscular failure on every set (I.E. if you are shooting for 12 reps then on the 12th rep you can't finish) But it should be pretty damn close. That's the whole point of training at different levels of intensity. If I am doing a 12 rep set I shouldn't use weight that I can do 20 times...now I'm doing absolutely nothing but wasting my time.

Now if you are training for size...I would recommend breaking up the 6-12 rep range into two groups, 6-8 rep sets, and 8-12 rep sets and go back and forth on a regular basis...not necessarily doing different exercises all the time, but changing intensity, volume, and frequency are the basis of successful programs geared towards muscle growth.

So basically, you should either train to failure on the different exercises you do, or max out...and that should definitely tell you what weight you should be working out with. If you get some maxes and would like to know how much weight you should be doing per working sets...post up and I can calculate that as well.

Hope that helps, if you have any questions holla back.

So I should work out with 100lbs on the bench press?? Let's see I could prolly do that at least 30 times...

Did you mean to say 50-65% of ur 1RM?? Because ur 1RM is the determining factor not bodyweight.

hmm do you think you could be just a little more thorough? jk, that was probably the best answer to any single question i've seen in gd :tup:

opticallyinviz

03-12-2006, 11:19 PM

MagnusMadness

03-13-2006, 10:54 AM

Cimpletely disagree though.. 5 times 5 has been proven by many many people that it builds a lot of mass and strength.

going to failure is a waste of time..always leave 2-3 reps in the hole.
doing you 1rm is a waste of time as well

unless you're a powerlifter it's a waste of your time

5 reps is kinda sitting on the fence...especially if you leave 2-3 reps in the hole (Why you would I have no idea, leaving that kind of gap would leave you clueless as to what level of intensity you are REALLY using)...you will build size and strength.....perhaps....but there are other factors to consider...5 times 5 is FAR from being a basis for a program, you are forgetting intensity, volume, frequency etc...Furthermore, when looking at volume, you look at #of reps and sets as a whole for the day...not per exercise (5x5) FURTHERMORE, building mass has more to do with diet than training methods...many advocate training for strength and eating for size...

Maxing out isn't a waste of time if you are using that as a benchmark for measuring intensity (as you should, if you know what the fuck you are doing). It does nothing for you as far as building size or strength or anything for that matter...but I never said that it did, did I???

Also, I don't advocate training to muscular failure anymore either...unless you are training for muscular endurance...but I don't leave 2-3 reps in the tank...more like 1-2...like I said in my previous post...I wouldn't use a weight for a 12 rep set that I could do 20 times...I might be able to do 13-14 reps if I really push it and perhaps let my form suffer...When I told him to train to failure on different exercises or max out...I meant that to be a one time thing so he could get his bearings and see what weights he should be using for normal, working sets...I see how you misunderstood my point...I wasn't very clear...

Chaos

03-13-2006, 03:44 PM

I don't have personal experience with 5 times 5 but what I gather is that it is more applicable to improved performance athletically as opposed to pure muscle mass gains. Its also quite complex for a beginner to try and sink into so I wouldn't advise he hop right into that.

Raider

03-15-2006, 06:08 AM

thedude.com

03-15-2006, 06:29 AM

i got an important question ... if i consume creatine , whey protein or any amino acids etc etc ...

does it burn more fat while doing weight lifting ??

opticallyinviz

03-15-2006, 10:19 AM

uh no.

Chaos

03-15-2006, 10:49 AM

Nope. Only thing that is gonna do that is a thermogenic product.

MagnusMadness

03-15-2006, 09:57 PM

Have anyone tried this?
What does it taste like, and would you guys recommend it?
If not, what would you recommend, for help gaining weight.

Thanks :)

http://www.bodyhut.com/shop/prodView.asp?idProduct=88

Looks like a knockoff of cytogainer to me....just use cytogainer..it has the same stuff that n large has except it also has creatine and glutamine in it as well...

But for gaining weight...sheer calories are going to do it...don't rely on protein shakes or killer workouts or weight gainers...

You need to be eating 6-7 balanced meals a day...lots of meat and fibrous veggies and complex carbs like black beans, oatmeal, rice etc...load up dude...it sux but if you are having a hard time gaining weight, you have to eat like a madman...save the weightgainers until you have a solid diet down. You will only waste your money....

TGC

03-15-2006, 11:18 PM

Hey guys i'm just wondering do the dietary supplements work well with me trying to do at least 30-45 minutes of cardio a day for 5 days a week, soon to increase to about an hour a day. and are there any side effects for taking them?

If not, can anyone recommend me some of the better stuff out there?

Raider

03-16-2006, 03:59 AM

Looks like a knockoff of cytogainer to me....just use cytogainer..it has the same stuff that n large has except it also has creatine and glutamine in it as well...

But for gaining weight...sheer calories are going to do it...don't rely on protein shakes or killer workouts or weight gainers...

You need to be eating 6-7 balanced meals a day...lots of meat and fibrous veggies and complex carbs like black beans, oatmeal, rice etc...load up dude...it sux but if you are having a hard time gaining weight, you have to eat like a madman...save the weightgainers until you have a solid diet down. You will only waste your money....

Okay, thanks for the reply :)

mightimao

03-16-2006, 04:04 AM

my apologies if this is long but i have several questions.
thanks in advance to anybody that can address them.
______________________________________

1)most people agree that there are two certain types of "phases" (for a lack of better word) when working out; that being bulking and cutting.

however, is it possible to do both? build lean muscles while shedding body fat? do the two conflict in any way?

while i would still like to gain more muscle mass, i really want to start losing some of this body fat (primarily my "gut" and some fat in my chest).
i'm currently bulking, and although i'm not content with my size while bulking, i really wanna start "cutting" my body fat asap.

2.I know a good diet is vital to any progress to be made. however, this is one of my weaker points. i know you're supposed to eat 5 small meals, but this conflicts with my schedule with work / school. i dont have time to cook, and as a result, i tend to eat out / eat fast food. not only that, i probably only eat two times a day.

-what is healthy and nutritious that i can prepare really quickly?
(i hate salads, anything but that)

-how healthy is subways for you?
-is the whole "dont eat at night / past 9 pm" thing true? i get hungry at night and i'm hessitant if i should eat something. usually a protein shake after my workouts will ease my hunger, but a few hours after that, i'm hungry again.

3. is it counter productive to do cardio and lift in the same day?
what is the most effective form of cardio? (besides swimming, i dont know how to swim, lol)

thanks!

bill_rizer

03-16-2006, 06:34 AM

Hi Ill try and help

1. Sounds like your talking about spot reducing meaning you try an certain exercise in hope of getting rid of fat in that specific area of your body.
Im affaid this is not possible, the only way to do this is have diet that aims at fat loss.

It is also impossible to gain muscle without gaining fat, again following a correct diet you can limit the amount of fat your actually putting on.

For You I would say go on a low fat diet lose some weight, then go on a weight gaiining diet, and bulid up the mass you want.

2. Yes I also have this problem with studying and what not. You MUST eat 6 times a day, If your really serious about this. I had to change my whole way of living to do this.

You have to wake up early I get up 6 or half 6 am and have a big breakfest, then 2hours later have something before I leave, thats 2 meals down already.
Now the Only way round not eating juke stuff while at school or work is to take a MRP (meal replacement powder), I take this with me along with 2 bannas.

I also take a whey bar and an apple for later on, in that case you would have eaten three times, depending on when you get home you can still fit 3 more meals in.

It is difficult I have to say, youre really going to have to push yourself, sometimes you wont feel like eating but just do it anyway.

For breakfest I have 3 shredded wheat biscuits in 300ml semi skinned milk along with 3 raw eggs mixed in milk and one vitiam C tab, LOL truss me that will fill you up and its quick to fix up.

another quick one I have when I come in is 4 pieces of wheat bread with 3 raw eggs.

What you need to find out is how much calories you need per day example I weighted 130lbs so I needed 2600 calories, every 10lbs equals another 200 calories or so.

From that sit down and plan your meals out.

NOT sure about subways or your last question, Im a skinny dude so lossing weight is not the problem.

Ive been training for a month so my advice might not be all that but I think It will help you.

And believe It is working My stats

Start
Weight - 131.6Lbs
Chest - 32.3
Waist - 29.4
Hip - 29.3
Shoulders - 15.1
Right Bicep - 9.5
Right Calve - 13.1
Thigh - 18.2

%of fat - 4.51
Lbs of fat - 5.94
Lbs of muscle - 125.66

Now 4 weeks on....
Weight - 140Lbs
Chest - 33.4
Waist - 29.4
Hip - 31.3
Shoulders - 16.7
Right Bicep - 10.4
Right Calve - 13.6
Thigh - 18.8

%of fat - 6.36
Lbs of fat - 8.90
Lbs of muscle - 131.10

Total muscle gainned 5.44lbs

I can start to see the difference in the mirror a little, Believe me these gains have inspired me to carry on, because I know its working, I really do focus on my training I never miss a session or miss a meal, its TOUGH.
As you can see If you stick with it, you can make It, I push myself harder every time I hit the gym I spend about an hour in their 3 times a week.

If your going to do anything in life do it 100 percent, gd luck with your training.

Also I know MagnusMadness is going to rip me apart in some way (runs and hides) ive been lurking in this thread for a while now, so I know some of you and I know MagnusMadness is the expert in here, he does give good advice so you should listen to him.

MagnusMadness

03-16-2006, 12:18 PM

thanks!

Building muscle and losing fat at the same time is next to impossible...even on steroids...as growth requires a caloric surplus and shedding any kind of weight requires a caloric deficit..This is most possible when a person first starts lifting however...as gains in muscle are easier to come by.

Now, mentally...this is what's going to happen if you cut now...if you aren't content with the size you have now and want to be bigger...weight till you lose some weight...ur strength will gradually decline and you will start to look a little flatter and smaller, this is what I'm going though now...lost a grip of weight and although I have more definition and pants fit better, I feel little lol....

You need to get a solid diet down...at LEAST 5 meals a day. Don't tell me you can't do it because I'm a server at a restaurant and on days I work doubles I could still squeeze in 6 if I do so desire. If you want your meals to come from healthy solid foods...you are going to have to wake up early and cook it all in the morning, and just take the food with you. You said you are bulking...but bulking is all diet and you are not dieting well at all...try bulking clean and the majority of your weight gain will hopefully be Lean Body Mass....then when you do decide to cut you won't have to lose a ton of muscle while trying to go from 20%BF to 10...

When ur bulking u can eat bullshit sometimes...to keep ur sanity u know...but if you eat 6 times a day and eat shit once...u still got a whole lot of protein shakes and chicken breast and veggies too....but when you eat twice a day and it's shit...ur going to put on fat....

Eating at night isn't a deal at all....in fact when you're trying to build muscle you want to eat something before bed.....very low glycemic index carbs and lean red meat to be exact...this helps keep ur body out of a catabolic state while you are sleeping...or at least keeps it to a minimum. Also get ur 8 hours sleep but not much longer than that...get up and start eating...

When you do cut...do it slowly. So as to retain as much LBM as possible...1 MAYBE 2 lbs a week is all you ever want to lose. Anything more than that and you are putting serious amounts of muscle at risk of being metabolized for energy...Imagine if you lost 25lbs and 10 of that was muscle...how long do you think it will take to get that 10lbs of muscle back?? Let me answer that....a long fucking time....maybe a year or more. I try not to cut unless I'm on something lol...

There's that's alot of info...sorry

And bill...ur advice wasn't bad at all....ur diet could be worked on a little bit though.

bill_rizer

03-16-2006, 12:55 PM

And bill...ur advice wasn't bad at all....ur diet could be worked on a little bit though.

Ha thanks, yea theirs more to my diet than what I said, just that guy wanted things that were quick to do.

Meat wise I eat chicken and tuna, you recomend anything else for gaining mass?

MagnusMadness

03-16-2006, 02:32 PM

Ha thanks, yea theirs more to my diet than what I said, just that guy wanted things that were quick to do.

Meat wise I eat chicken and tuna, you recomend anything else for gaining mass?

Chicken and Tuna is fine...you're already eating eggs (you don't HAVE to eat them raw lol)...which are great...throw in some lean red meat like a lean sirloin or filet or something in there late at night with black beans...black beans has a super low GI and supposedly it takes a long time to break down all the aminos in red meat too...so it's a good late night meal.

Gaining mass IMO, has more to do with total daily caloric intake though. Yes some foods are better than others, and others are better at different times in the day....I.E. 1 cup oatmeal, 7 egg whites one whole egg for breakfast...but look at how many total cals you are taking in...look to gain weight slowly and if you peak somewhat then add cals respectively...as you grow it will take more cals to maintain and even more to keep growing....(ronnie's 10,000 cal diet comes to mind) Also frequency is VERY important...you should be eating every 2.5-3 hours. This supports a healthy metabolism and prevents catabolism to a great extent...

Don't neglect ur weight training program either....just two things to keep in mind that most beginners fall into (myself included)....Change things up regularly but not spontaneously and don't overdo it. Don't look for it to come overnight unless you are implementing some form of super supplementation...

Soldier Zero

03-16-2006, 02:43 PM

Quick question.

Is it better to do less reps with more weight or more reps with less weight?

Say I benched 120 lbs 5-10 times, would that be better than benching 105 or 110 lbs about 15-20 times?

bill_rizer

03-16-2006, 05:28 PM

All you said

I see black beans I'l have to give that a try thanks. Yea I was about to change up my routine next week at the gym, I know the body gets used to what your doing after awhile so less gains are made its good to freshen up your training.

Yea spot on about the metabolism 3 hrs eating, I try to keep that up, Ive been doing well so far.
When I think about the way I used to eat I just gota laugh no wonder Im skinny all that crap I was eating before was just waste plus I was getting headaches quite alot, I think thats to do with Dehydration right? yea anyway since I started eating right I feel so much better and those headaches have stoped.

I know its going to take me long to get to the level I want, but my desire is their, I can make it.

Thanks for the tips, yea Soldier Zero it depends on what your aiming for, high reps triggers different fibers, i think theirs 3 different types Im not too sure on the details so ill let MagnusMadness sort you out.

MagnusMadness

03-17-2006, 01:37 AM

Quick question.

Is it better to do less reps with more weight or more reps with less weight?

Say I benched 120 lbs 5-10 times, would that be better than benching 105 or 110 lbs about 15-20 times?

Depends on what you are training for....and there's a million different theories on what does what....I've written out a long theory twice on the different rep ranges and I don't feel like doing it again...but if you are training for size then stick to 6-12 rep sets. I myself either train in 6-8 reps or 8-12 reps and work between the two...the program I just started is as follows

Monday
Upper/Horizontal

Tuesday
Lower

Wednesday
Off

Thursday
Upper/Vertical

Friday
Lower

Saturday/Sunday
Off

I also periodize in the following manner

Per Exercise
Week 1: 3x6-8 reps
Week 2: 3x8-12 reps
Week 3: 4x6-8 reps
Week 4: 4x8-12 reps
Week 5: 2x6-8

Repeat....

Every three cycles I change up routines...and may even change forms of periodization...what I'm doing now is pretty basic...

To answer your question more specifically...I never do 15-20 rep sets...some people throw them in there somewhere occassionally to "shock" something, but whatever.

mightimao

03-17-2006, 02:11 AM

thanks for the informative reply.

do you guys eat protein bars?
what are the best kinds? (value, nutrition, taste)

Taito

03-17-2006, 04:16 AM

Is there a limit on how much whey protein powder I should consume a day? I usually make 100+g shakes (made up of cottage cheese, peanut butter, yogurt and whey powder) every day, is that overkill? Is there a right time to drink that stuff (like mornings or before/after workouts or something)?

The Mullah

03-17-2006, 04:41 AM

from my limited understanding, whey is absorbed fast and is used fast. so it makes sense to me to take it when you wakeup in the morning and after a workout, so that it goes straight to your muscles.

you can get mixed whey with caesin or some shit which has a slower release of protein but you should just blend up tuna for the ultimate shake.

all this talk of protein bars and loads of whey shakes, you guys must be minted. i have a sneaky suspicion that shakes are shit compared to tuna and more expensive. 29p tesco tuna cans taito, blend that shit up with fruit juice, you can hardly taste the fish at all.

Soldier Zero

03-17-2006, 04:44 AM

Depends on what you are training for....and there's a million different theories on what does what....I've written out a long theory twice on the different rep ranges and I don't feel like doing it again...but if you are training for size then stick to 6-12 rep sets. I myself either train in 6-8 reps or 8-12 reps and work between the two...the program I just started is as follows

Monday
Upper/Horizontal

Tuesday
Lower

Wednesday
Off

Thursday
Upper/Vertical

Friday
Lower

Saturday/Sunday
Off

I also periodize in the following manner

Per Exercise
Week 1: 3x6-8 reps
Week 2: 3x8-12 reps
Week 3: 4x6-8 reps
Week 4: 4x8-12 reps
Week 5: 2x6-8

Repeat....

Every three cycles I change up routines...and may even change forms of periodization...what I'm doing now is pretty basic...

To answer your question more specifically...I never do 15-20 rep sets...some people throw them in there somewhere occassionally to "shock" something, but whatever.

Thanks man.

bill_rizer

03-17-2006, 12:19 PM

29p tesco tuna cans taito, blend that shit up with fruit juice, you can hardly taste the fish at all.

LOL ha thats where I get my tuna from too, the cheapness is good, yea bars and stuff can be expensive I dont really rely on them, their just there to help if need be.

mightimao I have Designer Whey bars coconut chocolately flavor their EXPENSIVE, if you got the cash then fair enough, but dont rely on them.

Soldier Zero

03-17-2006, 02:21 PM

300 lb Eugene

03-17-2006, 04:19 PM

Play this song on ITG2...about 10 times in a row..and you will automatically lose
20 lbs a day...:rolleyes: http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c107/supersoniccheesy/Bloodrush-owned.jpg

JuiceM0nkey

03-17-2006, 11:21 PM

Well my SRK buds, wish me luck tommorrow at the Nationals. Just got back from the early friday night weigh in and was kinda nervious not making wt class:crybaby:
Luckly I came in at 175 lbs and the cutt off for the middle wt class was 176 lbs.....ooooohhhhhh yea!!!

Anyway I will post mucho pics after I get back and a detailed 8 week diet that got me this shredded.

Alright I'm off to bed for at least 7 hours I hope...LOL:rofl:

MagnusMadness

03-18-2006, 12:40 AM

What are some ways to get protein from natural foods besides chicken and eggs?

I also have this drink called Isopure (or might be Isoprotein) and it's 20 oz., it has 40 grams of protein. Should I use this and keep on sticking to it or is there something better to use?

Ok, this needs to be addressed so everybody listen up. Everyone keeps asking about protein and which shakes to drink and how many to drink and when to drink them. This shit doesn't in any way replace REAL food...it's a CHEAP imitation. Worry more about your diet and meal frequency and you will be light years ahead of at least 50% of the people in ur gym. Probably the only time I deem them necessary is post workout....And I have somewhat of a problem with whey protein isolates too and this is it...especially with people consuming 3 or more shakes daily thinking they will grow...

If you eat 2-3 solid healthy meals and drink a bunch of shakes and ur daily caloric intake is LOW, but ur protein intake is ASTRONOMICAL, you WILL NOT grow.

Yes muscle is made of protein...but if you find urself in a caloric deficit then you won't grow no matter how many grams of protein you take in daily.

Now to answer your first question....meat is the most common source of protein....any and all of them....some are better and cleaner than others...eggs are great and so is grilled chicken and fish...

Is there a limit on how much whey protein powder I should consume a day? I usually make 100+g shakes (made up of cottage cheese, peanut butter, yogurt and whey powder) every day, is that overkill? Is there a right time to drink that stuff (like mornings or before/after workouts or something)?

Do you mean to tell me ur shakes contain 100 grams of protein a piece?? If so, then yes, that's overkill...I don't think any bodily harm is iminent but it's just a waste of material...ur body won't use all that...50gms of protein per meal is pushing it.

Soldier Zero

03-18-2006, 03:15 PM

Ok, this needs to be addressed so everybody listen up. Everyone keeps asking about protein and which shakes to drink and how many to drink and when to drink them. This shit doesn't in any way replace REAL food...it's a CHEAP imitation. Worry more about your diet and meal frequency and you will be light years ahead of at least 50% of the people in ur gym. Probably the only time I deem them necessary is post workout....And I have somewhat of a problem with whey protein isolates too and this is it...especially with people consuming 3 or more shakes daily thinking they will grow...

If you eat 2-3 solid healthy meals and drink a bunch of shakes and ur daily caloric intake is LOW, but ur protein intake is ASTRONOMICAL, you WILL NOT grow.

Yes muscle is made of protein...but if you find urself in a caloric deficit then you won't grow no matter how many grams of protein you take in daily.

Now to answer your first question....meat is the most common source of protein....any and all of them....some are better and cleaner than others...eggs are great and so is grilled chicken and fish...

I'm just curious about using that drink every one or 2 weeks, not gonna really over do it with the stuff.

Meat doesn't bother me too much for an all natural source, especially chicken. Eggs can be just egg whites, right? Are peanuts or any other nuts a good source to use? or just for a quick snack?

I'm just trying to bulk up, doesn't have to be pure muscle really. Should I eat regularly or slightly more than usual (more snacks between meals)? Should I be relying mostly on good/complex carbs when eating breads and such?

MagnusMadness

03-18-2006, 04:43 PM

I'm just curious about using that drink every one or 2 weeks, not gonna really over do it with the stuff.

Meat doesn't bother me too much for an all natural source, especially chicken. Eggs can be just egg whites, right? Are peanuts or any other nuts a good source to use? or just for a quick snack?

I'm just trying to bulk up, doesn't have to be pure muscle really. Should I eat regularly or slightly more than usual (more snacks between meals)? Should I be relying mostly on good/complex carbs when eating breads and such?

Peanuts do have protein...but not very much....what you are aiming for is eating 6 balanced meals a day....carbs/protein/fats....if you do that, you won't have any need for snacks. It takes a full meal close to 3 hours to digest, so eating every 3 hours allows ur body to take in most of what you are putting in, as opposed to just shitting everything out or storing most as fat...

I stick to complex carbs except post workout...ur not gonna eat alot of starches or bread....rice, oatmeal, black beans etc etc. Don't forget some fibrous veggies like green beans or broccoli in small portions.

And when you bulk, clean or not...you will put on muscle, water, and fat. As when you lose weight you lose all 3 types of tissue....you want to keep fat gain to a minimum so as when you do decide to cut you have little to lose and can keep LBM loss to a minimum...as it is harder to recover.

Protein shakes do have their place don't get me wrong. But the difference between some brands is little to none...Especially in terms of which one will net you the most noticeable short term gains. But IMO...shakes should resemble meals if you are going to use them to replace meals be it post workout or when you go to bed or whenever...and to do that...ur shake needs protein and carbs and a reasonable amount of calories overall.