Who thinks Dead Or Alive reversals are over powered and will ruin DOAU?

[Pgreg]

Yes or No.

[WasFemto]

Overpowerd yes(even hardcore DOA players think so). Will it ruin DOAU? probably not(from reading more in depth about the game at doacentral.com)

[GimmeThemShoes]

Counters beat button mashers, thats all.

[Krimzon Khaoz]

counters beat zack too

[SilentNinja]

It's paper rock scissors. Just like SvC Chaos. Guard Cancel front step= DOA Counters and reversals.

[Captain Ryu]

I just dont enjoy doa much for some reason. I thought the dc version was ok but the game just seems so dumb. I dont know, it might just be me. I honestly havent had any fun with it.

[GimmeThemShoes]

It's paper rock scissors.
Its better than 50/50, like every other 3d game. Counters completley take away the homo canned string "your turn, my turn AABB, now i counter-hit you or throw you" part of the game, which is a very good thing.
Most 3d game players hate DOA cause they cant mash on a safe string like they do in every other 3d game.

Homo strings and mashing get completley shut down by anyone who knows how to counter.
Requires actual thought; The only 3d game of its kind.

Plays very much like a 2d fighter at high levels.

[Legendary Gokou]

Just do the infamous 2 hit combo that players were getting pissed off at the national tournament ...... everyone boo'd the poor guy, but he won just using that. :rofl:

[The Pirate King: KLT]

Most 3d game players hate DOA cause they cant mash on a safe string like they do in every other 3d game.


Amen! That's the only reason I've heard that ppl haven't played this game. They believe it's valid too.... :lame:

[coN]

High level play = CD'ing to get in since it tracks, while rising B or throw.

All thats needed...

[Bahn Yuki]

coN's right...

[GimmeThemShoes]

Pretty much.

Doesnt stop someone from simply pressing a button while you crouch dash into it, forcing you into a mixup situation. Or simply block > throw the rising mid. Or back dash > punish whiff.
But thats all If's and Buts.

I could just as easily say "Pushing buttons is all you need, thats it." It's just as vague and meaningless. :tup:

[jericho_mpm]

simply if it was doa1 style where counters took nothing i think less people would play it

so yes

[Kayin]

simply if it was doa1 style where counters took nothing i think less people would play it

so yes
How did counters in DoA1 work?

[Don Mack]

I actually think 3d games take more skill than 2d games, cept for DOA.

[Setsuna_Goh]

Its better than 50/50, like every other 3d game. Counters completley take away the homo canned string "your turn, my turn AABB, now i counter-hit you or throw you" part of the game, which is a very good thing.
Most 3d game players hate DOA cause they cant mash on a safe string like they do in every other 3d game.

Homo strings and mashing get completley shut down by anyone who knows how to counter.
Requires actual thought; The only 3d game of its kind.

Plays very much like a 2d fighter at high levels.

oh pleeaase! have you ever played vf4? vf4 has counters just like doa does, but counters aren´t meant to make you win the game, counters/reversals are there to change the flow of the match if you get them right, not so you can turtle day in and day out and get damage just because you got a few counters in.

there´s no brain usage when you play DOA

[Setsuna_Goh]

I actually think 3d games take more skill than 2d games, cept for DOA.

AMEN BROTHER!

[Setsuna_Goh]

BTW i don´t think the game will get ruined, counters are overpowered as it is and people still play the heap of crap

[jwillennium]

I expect a good mixup game will prevail.

Those that are EXCESSIVELY looking to counter UNWISELY will be severely punished. It's one thing if your anticipation skills are good from having good knowledge of the combos and the possible mixups. It's another thing if you're one who blindly just puts up a counter effort with your fingers crossed that you'll get it. Now that DOA is online, I think people who criticize the franchise(and it is mainly because of the counters) will see how advance technique(associated with advanced players, of course) will prevail against low-level tactics. Heh, I'm not even a DOA vet, but I'm looing forward to this game. If all goes well, I may end up playing it more than Halo 2...

Now I will say this... I think it would be good if there was an option to turn off the counters or at least the ability to adjust the damage level of them. That would be nice, I guess.

[Rave]

No way are the counters going to kill this game.
Lagless matches?? Virtual Arcades??

If this was Shaq Fu I would still play it...
(maybe thats overdoing it a little :) )

[Blazze]

oh pleeaase! have you ever played vf4? vf4 has counters just like doa does, but counters aren´t meant to make you win the game, counters/reversals are there to change the flow of the match if you get them right, not so you can turtle day in and day out and get damage just because you got a few counters in.

there´s no brain usage when you play DOA


play me in DoA i'll make ya use your brain... ya gonna have to or ya just gonna take an horrible beatdown!!! handsdown

but everyone thinks that about doa and there totally wrong..

everyone think it's a button smasher, everyone think all they need to do is counter to win.. I love whoopin a counter-whore/button smasher..

even if some of you guys here get this game just cause it's another online fighter.. you'll get your wins and losses, but ya better have some type of skill before ya even attempt to play me.. but i'm open to challenge anyone that think they can win with those methods. ya may do it to a noob but not me..

And i put that on my hatchet!!!!

[Setsuna_Goh]

play me in DoA i'll make ya use your brain... ya gonna have to or ya just gonna take an horrible beatdown!!! handsdown

but everyone thinks that about doa and there totally wrong..

everyone think it's a button smasher, everyone think all they need to do is counter to win.. I love whoopin a counter-whore/button smasher..


ok man, first off i never said doa was a button masher game, it's not, i can vouch for that, but let's be honest here, i'm a veteran tekken, vf and soul calibur player, and all of the qualities that make a "pro" DOA player are qualities that are just common sense for any other 3d fighter, like baiting reversals and punishing them with throws, stopping in the middle of a string to mess up their timing, change the string in order to make them guess wrong and capitalize on that... dude they are all just basic knowledge for any other 3d gamer out there, and the fact that they made the game so revolved around the counter, throw, hit game is what makes it so simple, and thus the reason i have for saying you don't need a brain to play the game.
countering properly is not a hard thing to do, good move reading skills are a must for every other 3d fighter out there, and doesn't require a lot of thought, btw in those games, the option after you read the move is usually more complex than dishing out a single button move(in this case being a reversal that takes away waaaaaaay too much off your lifebar for a move that is so simple to dish out in a proper manner).
And secondly, who cares if you beat me or not? the simplicity of the game will not change if you beat me, nor will the fact that the whole game system is badly designed, and if you were smart you'd notice i don't like the game enough to want to play it seriously, wich i would have to to beat you senseless at it, knowing that one of the basics of countering properly is knowing wich attacks hit high and wich hit low or mid, and wich chains can be interrupted, and/or modified to hit low or mid, or high.
but the fact of the matter is that exactly, that wich i listed is all i would need to know to be good at DOA seeing how i play other 3d games seriously, but for you to pick up tekken or virtua fighter and become good, would take you a hell of a lot more learning than that.

DOA advanced techniques = vf basics

Note: quit the fanboyism, learn your game's weaknesses and strengths before you start yapping about it, honestly, if you had just told me that the game was fun and the whole idea of the counters playing such a lead role in the game engine is for the game to be simple and fun, maybe i would've given you the point, instead of writing such a long reply as to why doa sucks

PEACE

[virtuapai]

but let's be honest here, i'm a veteran tekken, vf and soul calibur player, and all of the qualities that make a "pro" DOA player are qualities that are just common sense for any other 3d fighter, like baiting reversals and punishing them with throws, stopping in the middle of a string to mess up their timing, change the string in order to make them guess wrong and capitalize on that... dude they are all just basic knowledge for any other 3d gamer out there,

-This is the basics for Doa As well. If thinking this was the end to be all to Doa, than your sadly mistaken. The only difference (basics), In Doa, its more pronounced. Baiting a Hold in Doa is far more rewarding than it is to Bait a reversal in other 3d fighters. For one, Reversals in other fighters recover much quickly making it almost impossible to get anytype of counter damage without putting yourself at a disadvantage(reward/risk ratio). Also, In other fighters, You dont have to switch up your attacks as much because there is no threat of Holds/reversals intercepting your attack ,while your opponent is stunned, or the fact that every character in Vf and Tk don’t have Reversals
(or reversal type moves) or have reversals in every attack class ...meaning, you can do a string of attacks and at most worry that the string of moves that you are using will leave you at a frame disadvantage.

and the fact that they made the game so revolved around the counter, throw, hit game is what makes it so simple, and thus the reason i have for saying you don't need a brain to play the game.

-The game is built around the Idea of having Holds/Throw/Attacks as the basic foundation of the game, but that’s the basics. The game is way more indepth than what is seen on the surface. There are Attacks Vs. Attacks , Throws Vs. Attacks, Attacks Vs Holds and Throws Vs. Throws (something that is not seen in other 3d fighters). There is a plethora of different gameplay set ups and options Available…which makes the game far more complex.

countering properly is not a hard thing to do, good move reading skills are a must for every other 3d fighter out there, and doesn't require a lot of thought, btw in those games, the option after you read the move is usually more complex than dishing out a single button move(in this case being a reversal that takes away waaaaaaay too much off your lifebar for a move that is so simple to dish out in a proper manner).

-Reading Canned strings is not a hard thing to do, But being able to hold Strings that are delayed, Free Canceled, Mixed up (hit level or mixed with throws and hold resistant attacks) are not easy….And even if it was, Holding is not the safest nor the best method to dish damage. Whiffing a hold will result in you losing waaaaaaaaaaaaay more damage than successfully catching your opponents attack with a hold. You are disadvantaged for 30 frames, Your opponent can use his /her most damaging throw to counter the hold attempt and Receive 150% damage revision (Which can range from 90+ in damage, 30pts more than the max hold damage). The better player can also launch your opponent into the air and get 100+ in damage. Relying on holds as your sole defence is a low leveled tactic.

DOA advanced techniques = vf basics

-Yeah if you think Advanced Techniques in Doa Is: like baiting reversals and punishing them with throws, stopping in the middle of a string to mess up their timing, change the string in order to make them guess wrong and capitalize on that.

-Multiple throw command buffering, Frame traps and Set-ups(Moves that force your opponent into a two choice guessing game), Environmental set-ups and Traps(such as Wall traps and set-ups, Slippery surface set ups..etc), Wake up games(such as rising attack breaks, Rising attack breakes that lead into wall set ups and traps, Uramawari for rising attacks, Rising attack baiting, throwing a rising opponent), Hold set ups and baits( Randomly throwing out holds to bait your opponet to attack, Hold/wall set ups, Hold/wake up game set ups, Hold/Forced mixups,)Limbo Stun set-ups, Slow escape, Free step evasion(which is much harder to do than Than SS in other fighters)Character specific techniques such as helena's Bokutai Evasion..etc. all of which are Advanced or above average Techniques.

[Setsuna_Goh]

well thank you for enlightening me man, i had no idea the game went THAT deep, but yet somehow even after reading all your good points (wich you had a lot of), i still find it that the game is a bit too swerved to the idea of the holds, and i think that in the end it ends up taking too much of the game, having the basics too accentuated like that just deprives you of having indivituality in your characters to some extent, deprives the variety that makes games like tekken and vf so popular and widely played, and even tho the advanced techniques you mentioned are starting to rival those of virtua fighter's (aside from the obvious environmental techniques) i still find that it makes the characters too general, and less their own thing, i find that holds/reversals should prove a role in a characters movelist as long as they aid to the character's gameplay and make them stand out for it, be the reversals general or specific to any given move heights, punch kick or any other.

but that is just my oppinion, thanks for enlightening me as to how advanced doa has gotten, and thanks for not offering me a beatdown like our friend's post up there did, thanks a lot man

[virtuapai]

well thank you for enlightening me man, i had no idea the game went THAT deep, but yet somehow even after reading all your good points (wich you had a lot of), i still find it that the game is a bit too swerved to the idea of the holds, and i think that in the end it ends up taking too much of the game, having the basics too accentuated like that just deprives you of having indivituality in your characters to some extent,deprives the variety that makes games like tekken and vf so popular and widely played

-I understand what your saying, But this is no different than Vf4 having a Universal Side stepping system, or Soul calibur's Parrying/repel system. They are universal techniques, but effect each individual character differently(because of thier abilty to follow up). At higher levels of play(medium-Advanced play), Holds are cut down because of the higher risk involved. Blocking and Counter attacking are better solutions 85% of the time. If you watch any of the new vids at www.Doacentral.com, You will see that holds are not done excessively(more than other fighters, but Not to the point you see nothing but holds).

and even tho the advanced techniques you mentioned are starting to rival those of virtua fighter's (aside from the obvious environmental techniques) i still find that it makes the characters too general, and less their own thing, i find that holds/reversals should prove a role in a characters movelist as long as they aid to the character's gameplay and make them stand out for it, be the reversals general or specific to any given move heights, punch kick or any other.

- This is not true at all. Yes everyone has holds, but each character have holds customized to their fighting style. For ex. Tina(wrestler) has a submission hold, She has wall specific Holds that lead into wake up games. Hitomi has a hold that launches her opponent into the air(Juggle damage depends on which limb she holds), she also has a Hold that staggers her opponent and allows her to force a mixup game on her opponent..Kasumi has a super launching hold, she has a teleport parry that *may* allow her to get guaranteed damage(depending on the strike that was held)...etc.. This doesnt take into account of special combinations such as holds/wall set ups..ex Helena has a hold that leaves her opponent back turned,nothing is guaranteed(because her opponent can dash away). But When She does that hold near the wall, Her opponent is locked down, and she will get guaranteed wall Juggles~ Which will lead into wall play(set ups)~ Which can lead into wake up games...I think You get the point.

but that is just my oppinion, thanks for enlightening me as to how advanced doa has gotten, and thanks for not offering me a beatdown like our friend's post up there did, thanks a lot man

-Your welcome. I hope that you will be able to play DoaU on Live. I know of a couple of Players(NYC crew, Tom Brady, Dallas Crew) will be able to show exactly what Im talking about.

Have a good day :tup:

[DarkCatalyst]

OMG teh flashbacks...! :lol:

Hey, VPai, knew you'd show up here sooner or later. In fact I was halfway tempted to link you to the thread myself, but you were never online when I thought to. :razz:

[jwillennium]

I'm kind of hoping(and after Ninja Gaiden, EXPECTING) Team Ninja will come back and implement a feature so that players can adjust the damage level of the Reversals and Falls. That would be excellent.

Supposedly there is some lag to be found, but that it will be a smooth ride for the most part.

[Setsuna_Goh]

-I understand what your saying, But this is no different than Vf4 having a Universal Side stepping system, or Soul calibur's Parrying/repel system. They are universal techniques, but effect each individual character differently(because of thier abilty to follow up). At higher levels of play(medium-Advanced play), Holds are cut down because of the higher risk involved. Blocking and Counter attacking are better solutions 85% of the time. If you watch any of the new vids at www.Doacentral.com, You will see that holds are not done excessively(more than other fighters, but Not to the point you see nothing but holds).



i did watch the videos this morning before you posted, just to see for myself the intricacies of doa's style of play, i saw a couple of matches between you and another guy and i watched tom brady against the same guy, and i have to say that i was very impressed at you guys' proffesionalism and technicality in the game.

addressing your response to the universal hold, i have to admit that i did see that you guys really cut down on the holds while they ARE present, and maybe make the style of play feel too much ping pongy to me (all the flow changing going on){that's probably why i quit playing sc2} and you're right, they are specific to each character, i've seen so myself, launches or knockdowns or submissions, although i think the comparison to the universal side stepping system that vf has is too much of a stretch to be honest, seeing as how sidestepping is just a basic staple of EVERY 3d fighting game (or should be at least) while stepping on vf plays a MUCH major role than it does on other 3d fighters, i feel that it doesn't change much in the way of making the style feel less individual, because well, stepping is just stepping, while it does aid sometimes to get you out of a hairy situation it's beaten by more than 2 options in the game (throws and circular moves, half circular moves), not to mention the fact that you are committed to the step if you fail to evade an actual hit. so it isn't really a lifesaver such as the hold is in doa, let's be honest, it's not used much in high level play, but when used properly it really can get you out of a tight spot, and it's just regular stuff for all the characters, wich makes it feel weird IMO, because other games in order to get out have you make use of different techniques, and counter accordingly after analyzing what you're getting nailed with and inside that you have more options.
bah i think i'm swerving from my main point here.

anyways i'd love to get in touch with you and exchange experiences, maybe you'll be able to sell me the whole doa idea and make me want to get good at that game also

[virtuapai]

OMG teh flashbacks...! :lol:

Hey, VPai, knew you'd show up here sooner or later. In fact I was halfway tempted to link you to the thread myself, but you were never online when I thought to. :razz:

-Im usualy Everywhere :encore: Im getting my DoaU Today :party:

anyways i'd love to get in touch with you and exchange experiences, maybe you'll be able to sell me the whole doa idea and make me want to get good at that game also

-Cool, It would be nice to expand my list of people I would like to play against...and/or Talk about fighting games and such.

[DarkCatalyst]

-Im usualy Everywhere :encore: Im getting my DoaU Today :party:

Yeah, I'm picking mine up first thing in the morning, too. There's actually a thread over on Dark Meta's board where we're talking about having "DOA night" every week (I love the online model for this game!), you might want to look into it.

[jwillennium]

Yeah, I'm picking mine up first thing in the morning, too.

If only it were true...

lol! Damnit! Like the homey Nate Dogg said, "One More Day..."

[DarkCatalyst]

If only it were true...

lol! Damnit! Like the homey Nate Dogg said, "One More Day..."

Yeah, it sucks. Now I wanna go shoot up a McDonald's!* :mad: :mad: :mad: See what you did, Tecmo?! :sad:

*It may sound like I'm overreacting - I'm not. Later on I may post my story of "The Quest for Dead or Alive Ultimate: A Tragedy." Basically I wasted two and a half hours of my life and did way too fucking much walking trying to track this game down. I am NOT pleased.

[Bahn Yuki]

Yo VPai, you're in NYC? you need to come out here man for some DOA battles...I'll hit you up on AIM for details.