Lets talk about mind games

[Mickey D']

After reading a certain quote from Arileith in the 3s Makoto thread, I was inspired to create a thread in which players can benefit by excelling in their mental games, thanks Arilieth.

I'd also like to thank Nick T. because he's helped me so much in increasing my game, so I want to give a huge shout out to my man Nick T. Most of these strats are his, in which he has merely taught me....Thanks man.

Test your opponent

This is extremely important. Basing on how your opponent acted, you can judge upon wether or not the test was succesfull in beating your opponent or not. If the test was succesfull, keep doing it until your opponent realizes what to do. In sbo2, Daigo played Otaku. It seemed that Daigo was really dominating whith guile by merely throwing well placed SB's. As you can see these tests can help you realize your opponents patterns. Examples of tests:

-Throwing fire balls
-Pressure strings
-Crossing Over after knockdowns
-Tick throwing
-Counter hit setups

Mixup Games

I can't even begin to express how important mixups are. Mixups can allow you to hold momentum for the rest of the round. People should never fall in a pattern, unless they know that they can capitalize because of a possible parry/jd setup, super counter hit setup, etc. Mixing up your game plan will keep your opponent guessing. Example:

Cammy can do several things after a knock down. She can do a wakeup attack, she can pressure the opponent with [s.lk walk up]x3, etc. She can also do Holligan combo, forcing your opponent into a 33.3% chance. You can either hit high, hit low, or throw. Mixing these situations up will ALWAYS keep your opponent second guessing.

If you can keep your opponent guessing, it can play mental games as well.

Mental Notes

In my opinion, mentality is everything. If you go into the match pissed off cuz the vending machine ate your dollar or something, your probably gonna lose. Think about it, your frustrated as is, and losing is just gonna piss you off even more. try as much as possible to keep a cool head. Here are some notes:

- Jamaal taught me that throwing extracts mashing, and mashing. And mashing extracts frustration.

- After a tech throw practically 90% of the players I've played go for low hits.

- After you stuff an opponents attack, notice how they react. Most people will freeze, they are mentally frozen for a slight second.(Arileith, not me)

- No one ever likes getting pressured, They're gonna want to get out by a DP, c.lp or something. Watch out for it.


I'll post more later on I'm in school right now, but please give me some feed back.

[vasAZNion13]

Mental Notes

- Jamaal taught me that throwing extracts mashing, and mashing. And mashing extracts frustration.
.

and mashing == free counterhits


- After a tech throw practically 90% of the players I've played go for low hits.


this seems to only benefit P-groove, unless you have rock/geese


- After you stuff an opponents attack, notice how they react. Most people will freeze, they are mentally frozen for a slight second.(Arileith, not me)


for me, i will probably fall for a throw about 95% of the time i get stuffed. i notice other people fall for it as well


- No one ever likes getting pressured, They're gonna want to get out by a DP, c.lp or something. Watch out for it.

i played against people who DP in between blockstrings, (i.e. blanka's c.shortx2, i'll get DPed out of it sometimes). this can be worked to your advantage, doing blockstrings with VERY small holes to get out means that they have to either super/dp their way out. i haven't figured out how i take advantage of this, it's more of a 'on the moment gut instinct' kind of thing.


mickey D: i find that you covered a good deal of mind games(or at least the important aspects). i hope to see the rest of it soon.

[Nick T.]

I taught you well. You're learning. :)

[laugh]

There are several patterns that are great if done right for any characters.

Attacks that give you little frame advantage on purpose
For example, you can do a deep j.RH(blocked) with Sakura then walkup a little. Right when you are about to run out of frame advantage, either do a) close fierce XX FB, b) wait a tad bit more and throw, or c)fake-throw CC. This allows you to trick people into getting counter hit to your fierce (becaue they thought you were going for a throw), or having very little option about the possible throw attempt (they can't just c.short out of it, cuz you put a frame advantage to you) in this case, they can only try to tech the throw or super/dp, which can be all countered by a fake throw CC. Some people will be like "I'll just take a throw", well, that mentality breaks down real easy after getting thrown a couple of times in a row.

This is deliberately leaving very little frames between 2 attacks so that you have the control over the choices. This is truly forcing your opponent to make a choice. If you keep your attacks all tight, you know it's gonna be all blocked even if they let go of the stick in the middle of your strings.

This is how rolento's poke - walk up - CH jab - low forward XX super works. Rolento has a higher than average throw range, so he can decide to either throw or jab at the range where only he can throw, but the other can't.

Sagat's super noobish emtpy jump - lv3 low kick super

I like Sagat. I like it when I knock someone down with my N Sagat, and then I pop a bar to power up, and then low jump deep when they're getting up, making them think I'm gonna either do low jump RH - low super, or empty jump low kick super. I just go for a throw instead, and that throw's gonna take off a CHUNK of their life bar, cuz I'm powered up. I know I don't HAVE to get rid of my power up right away, especailly when I'm Sagat. 2 throws during power up will be pretty close to a lv3 super's damage. It's sexy like that.

peace

[Mickey D']

this seems to only benefit P-groove, unless you have rock/geese.

I don't know about that. I'm gonna have to disagree. A person can get bold and try and activate a CC after a tech throw. Or possibly a Level 3. However I wouldn't rely on these at all. Parry/JDing it would be the most "safe." However it CAN indeed benefit from A groove, especially if you can guard crush your opponent even if he blocks.


i played against people who DP in between blockstrings, (i.e. blanka's c.shortx2, i'll get DPed out of it sometimes). this can be worked to your advantage, doing blockstrings with VERY small holes to get out means that they have to either super/dp their way out. i haven't figured out how i take advantage of this, it's more of a 'on the moment gut instinct' kind of thing.

Yea it's very hard to tell if they're going to level 3/dp you out of your pressure string. However if you notice that your opponent is trying to dp/lvl.3 you out of it, you can get a little tricky and try to go for a custom in the middle of your pressure string. Example, you say that peeople hit you out of blanka's c.lk, c.lk string...well instead do c.lkx2 RC hop, or c.lkx2 activate. I think that RC hop would be best, however it's always very ballzy to try a custom in between yours/their block strings.


mickey D: i find that you covered a good deal of mind games(or at least the important aspects). i hope to see the rest of it soon.

Thank you very much, I do as well!

[lifetimeboy]

Yeah mind games are a rough business. Testing people is good. You gotta find out what kinda player you are dealing with. I guess this is where patience comes in, you gotta test but you don't wanna get caught.

Deep down mind games seems like rock paper sizzors to me. If you admit you can have skill in RPS's then you can have skill in mind games. Or is it luck??!!

cause how do you know the opponent will do what you have read him to do??!! you don't, your guessing. Or are you??!!?

Figure it out!

LTBizzle

[Mickey D']

LTB brings up a solid point. No one is a psychic, and you aren't going to know for sure what your opponent does, just like in RPS. That can be said with out doubt. However creating setups that promote the thought of "I bet he's gonna do insert attack!" Wether it be tick throwing, counter hit setups, basic baiting, anything...there is always the opportunity to counter their thought process.

When this is done sucesfully it leaves mental damage. Depending on how hard you hit your opponent will depend on how much mental damage it deals as well. This is where the mind games come from. If you just hit them with a shit load of damage because of THEIR miscalculation, they're going to think twice about attacking you the next time that the situation comes around. I'm not saying like, "Oh shit I jumped in and ate a level 3 tiger shot!" I'm saying: "Hmm is he gonna attack now? Lets wait....NOW attack NOW...holy shit he lvl 3'd me!?"

As you can see the 2 variations are completely different. One was mental miscalculation, the other was out of miscalculation.

Also, Mind games don't always have to be a lose/lose situation like rock, paper, scissors. In actuallity you are always committing to a risk of some sort. In one case however, you don't lose anything because what you did was safe to an extent. At other times pay off could be one that wins you the whole pot of gold....you never know

How do I know the opponent will do what I had read him to do?

The tests. Judging upon his actions on how I had tested him, I have a pretty good idea of what he will do. Obviously it's not a certainty.

Otherwise I don't think it's fair to say that mind games are merely RPS games. I think that RPS has to do with literal luck, as well as some possible reading of your opponent.

However these mind games deal with your opponent's mentallity and thought process. In cvs2 you can test how they react to certain things. As well as take advantage of their mental suffering. Making it far from a mere RPS game.

[Neo Odin]

Taking psychology to CVS2, and psycho analyzing your opponent,
predetermining what he will do next, or dame near determine what he's
gonna do next, at least you'll have an idea, now thats whats up. :tup:
(gotta love it)

Good shit M.Dzy, you've made me think more, and have made me even more open minded, call it enlightment if you will, yes I mix it up, and unpredictablitiy is a must, but you've made me think about the game in a different form. Thanx
(Level Up! :cybot:)

Bringing psy 101 to the plate, who would have thought.

Keep it up!:clap:
I also look forward to your findings, and your opinions.

Fight On:nunchuck:

[vasAZNion13]

I don't know about that. I'm gonna have to disagree. A person can get bold and try and activate a CC after a tech throw. Or possibly a Level 3. However I wouldn't rely on these at all. Parry/JDing it would be the most "safe." However it CAN indeed benefit from A groove, especially if you can guard crush your opponent even if he blocks.


i was referring to the "low attack after a tech throw" i don't see how knowing that they are gonna go for "low attack" can benefit anyone besides rock/geese and Pgroove, of if you're really clever, kyo's s.rh or people with lower body invincibility normals/specials.

[Legendary Gokou]

If you know they'll go low after a tech throw, there's a few things you can do.


-Dragon punch
-RC through it
-Roll and punish
-Low jump over it and punish
-Activate through it
-Command counter it
-parry/jd it


Quite a number of options.

[No D]

If you know they'll go low after a tech throw, there's a few things you can do.


-Dragon punch
-RC through it
-Roll and punish
-Low jump over it and punish
-Activate through it
-Command counter it
-parry/jd it


Quite a number of options.

Like with Rolento........ you can go for a really good cross-up by normal jumping after a tech throw.

another one is use a high priority poke after a tech throw.....

like "standing jab" with rolento(most likely will get a counter hit into c.mk to xxx :pleased: ),crouching mp with shotos,or standing mk with Maki/ just throw out you best poke, and hope your best move beats theirs.

Vega jump straight up. Who ever your playing with remember to mix it up. :karate: How can you have mind game's if u dont mix up. :rolleyes:

[vasAZNion13]

If you know they'll go low after a tech throw, there's a few things you can do.


-Dragon punch
-RC through it
-Roll and punish
-Low jump over it and punish
-Activate through it
-Command counter it
-parry/jd it


Quite a number of options.

well some of those options you can do against mid attacks as well, mickey pointed out that they usually do low attacks, but i was just commenting that it doesn't apply to much stuff, but it's still nice to know. anyways just making it clear cuz this thread has some nice potential for discussion of the psychological aspect of the game.

[Neo Odin]

Mental Notes

In my opinion, mentality is everything. If you go into the match pissed off cuz the vending machine ate your dollar or something, your probably gonna lose. Think about it, your frustrated as is, and losing is just gonna piss you off even more. try as much as possible to keep a cool head. Here are some notes:

- Jamaal taught me that throwing extracts mashing, and mashing. And mashing extracts frustration.

Please excuse my ignorance:xeye:, but with that said above, does that mean that once you land a mashable grab, such as maki's RH grab for example, that mashing for more damage can cause frustration on yourself? Sorry it just wasnt made that clear, so please feel free to correct me if im wrong. Then again I can kind of understand that concept, such as cable's hyper viper beam semi infinite, mashing on the punch buttons so that your opponent stays in correct position for the following AHVB, I can see where that might cause fatigue, geez I hope im not wrong on what you were trying explain.:karate:

Fight On:nunchuck:

[Mickey D']

Good shit M.Dzy, you've made me think more, and have made me even more open minded, call it enlightment if you will, yes I mix it up, and unpredictablitiy is a must, but you've made me think about the game in a different form. Thanx
(Level Up! :cybot:)

Well thanks to you for posting your feed back. I know exactly how you feel. Like I had said most of this stuff is what Nick T. had taught me, I just put into my own words. I totally know what you mean Odin, cuz when Nick explained it to me, I was inspired as well. Otherwise, I've never really ever gotten any nice compliments concerning Cvs2, so thank you.

i was referring to the "low attack after a tech throw" i don't see how knowing that they are gonna go for "low attack" can benefit anyone besides...

Yea I guess in a sense your right, but like you said in your other post, it's a good thing to know as well.

Please excuse my ignorance:xeye:, but with that said above, does that mean that once you land a mashable grab, such as maki's RH grab for example, that mashing for more damage can cause frustration on yourself?

Actually I was leaning towards the tick throw setups. For example, after you have thrown your opponent, and on their wake up you do c.lk, walk up throw him again. Now on their wake up once again, pull of a c.lk....Now think about what you did to them. You have just thrown them twice. They now have the thought of

"Okay if he does that set up again, I have to counter it some how."

Therefore, most people will mash on c.lk in hopes of stopping your tick throw. This is what I was talking about. The fact that they are beginning to get frustrated, AND they are creating counter hit setups.

However after I read this quote I began to think about throws and frustration. If you throw your opponent 2 times, In which merely throws your opponent across the screen, they take it as "Oh geez...I just got thrown twice...shoot!" However If you did two succesfull throws in which do multiple hits they're reaction will be much more dramatic, something along the lines of: "DANM IT, I gotta mash again SHIT!"

In conclusion, multi hitting throws (Sagat's Hk throw, Blanka's Hp throw) will cause more frustration and mental damage to your opponent compared to a throw in which does not do multiple hits.

[Neo Odin]

I get you, just tryin to make sure, I had a feeling that might have been what you were trying to explain.

I can also understand the frustration part, I see a lot of people abuse the throw technique you posted above with cammy, I would to if my characters throws had that much priority and range, frame data, ext...

Maki has quite a long reach with her grab as well.

The frustration part I can comprehend due to the fact that I have, and im sure others have been victim to tic throw set ups,
multiple throws ect... after your opponent gets two throws on you,you might get slightly frustrated as well. Then again the question comes mind, why do people get angry when they lose, well me personally if one of my characters gets raped, I not exactly happy, and im sure everyone else can relate, I dont mind loosing at all, Im more likely to give you props for a great match.:tup:

I hope most agree that know one likes getting owned, but it happens and I do get slighty annoyed, but then I remember its just a game and thats how most people should take it, whether your serious about the game or play it just for fun. I also see you saying that....->


Actually I was leaning towards the tick throw setups. For example, after you have thrown your opponent, and on their wake up you do c.lk, walk up throw him again. Now on their wake up once again, pull of a c.lk....Now think about what you did to them. You have just thrown them twice. They now have the thought of

"Okay if he does that set up again, I have to counter it some how."

Therefore, most people will mash on c.lk in hopes of stopping your tick throw. This is what I was talking about. The fact that they are beginning to get frustrated, AND they are creating counter hit setups.B]

Exactly, and once you have a possitive hypothesis, on the fact that there going to try mashing low jab or shorts, you insert
your own DP or Geese Rock type Counter here...

Thus adding even more frustration, or making them think "Dame
what the hell should I do now?" Some people say geese's counters
aren't of much use, i beg to differ, ive been able to counter 3
times in row once in a while, just by analyzing the opponent before hand waiting for my turn and during a match, a lot
of people expect geese to try and counter when they jump, or they
might just decide to empty jump I just down fierce them, run to the other side and counter, or AA CC them if im using A.

Example: I knocked ken down,then I ran after him and he tried to counter with a DP, I high paried before hand, he got up and did nothing, so I threw him, he then tred to get up with a c.lp, I low paried him, I early high countered after to throw him off, and as he got up, I came to the conclusion that the guy is probally frustrated as hell, so I high countered his wake up level 3.

Sorry for the long post, and I apologize, since this isnt the
geese thread, buktooth's gonna kill me if I dont stop now:lol:

Anyway I bet kyo is good at stuff like this seeing as hes good
at rush down, I have now been able to play him at a higher level
because of this thread.

Fight On:nunchuck:

[Nick T.]

In actuallity you are always committing to a risk of some sort. In one case however, you don't lose anything because what you did was safe to an extent. At other times pay off could be one that wins you the whole pot of gold....you never knowSometimes you can create what looks like a losing situation, then wait and capitalize off it. Do something laggy, then mix it up off of something you previously did.

[Mickey D']

Hmm interesting, I'm gonna have to post about this Nick, but I'm in school right now so I'll get to it later on.

[Gamma Ray]

One of my favorite things is making belive I'm a noob to bait predictable attacks. Doesn't always work, but that's why you test your opponent. Make a SAFE, but stupid move. Something that will make the guys mouth water. He goes to counter your noobiness with some advanced shit and you exploit it :D

[Mickey D']

Has anyone tried really bold moves like:

c.lk, wait activate CC/level 3/Counter hit, etc.

I wanted to know how your guys' experiences fall under this. The reason I ask is because I went to the arcade yesterday and I realized that when I do c.lk wait, my opponent has a hard time of what to do. Since I use P groove, my opponents realize exactly what I can do. I can go for a throw, low jump attack, down parry, etc.

However I'm a pretty risky player, and I was pulling off a lot of down parry's after they try and hit me with something. All in all I come to the conclusion that a lot of people don't really know what to do after you do c.lk/lp wait.

So as you can see capitalizing off of knowing this is obvious. However I've gained to realize that even setting it up is easy as hell too :tup:

This goes back to the tests that you give for your opponents. After you knock your opponent down, go up and try a tick throw. Note their experience, if they hit you out or tech'd it, they know what you want to do. If it was a sucesfull throw, then try it again. Once the tactic stops working, you have now "trained" your opponent to do what you want him to do. The next time you get a knock down, just do a c.lk wait. Once again, take note upon what he will do.

-If he stood their and waited for awhile: Duely noted...try another tick throw later on. As Arileith said, when people are in this position, they are literally mentally frozen.

-If he waits then does c.lk: This waiting time goes back to the "mental freeze." Once again, note this in your game play. The next time he does it, input a down parry or a small hop. And like I said before, a ballzy level 3.

-If he immediately tries to tech: Take into consideration the next time. Easy as that.

So I know this post probably hasn't been as good as my others, but just realize the damage you can pull off of by just doing a simple c.lk, wait.

[Mickey D']

Oh yea forgot to post about this! :pleased:

I've realized a certain "trick" that had been done to me a lot by dash crossover people. Combos like:

Cammy: c.lk x 2, spiral arrow
Bison: c.lp x 2, scissor kick
Rock: c.lp, c.mk, lp hard edge

These characters can dash twice (after the combo) while crossing over. I've noticed that many people see the cross over and have it in their mindsets that "Well they're gonna crossover, they have the momentum not me." After a guy did Bison's c.lp x2 scissor kick at me, then dashed twice crossing over, I was a victim to this set of mind. I thought that he was going to attack for sure, instead he threw me, gaining even more frustration from me.

So I think what can be said from this: When doing unexpected crossovers such as dashing, keep in mind that opponents will most likely see the crossover. The advantage to this, is that their first insentive is to block.

[Nick T.]

These characters can dash twice (after the combo) while crossing over. I've noticed that many people see the cross over and have it in their mindsets that "Well they're gonna crossover, they have the momentum not me." After a guy did Bison's c.lp x2 scissor kick at me, then dashed twice crossing over, I was a victim to this set of mind. I thought that he was going to attack for sure, instead he threw me, gaining even more frustration from me.Just block and wait for them to go for a throw then tech it, then keep them back with a normal or a short combo to reset the matches momentum.
Just watch out for random super if you decide to attack to keep away.

[randomsuper]

going for counterhit lk's is pretty mandatory, especially if you play shotos. i think the trick is to not be predictable and go for the same thing over and over. at least that way you can get some free damage because whoever you're playing will be kept guessing and make stupid mistakes.

honestly though, anyone here noticed that mind games are kind of corny and wont work against a player of equal skill? if you own someone up a few games, it's easy to keep em scared. good players understand how and when to counter every situation, so it more or less becomes an exercise in patience and capitalizing off of mistakes. i'm probably ranting, but eh.

[Nick T.]

honestly though, anyone here noticed that mind games are kind of corny and wont work against a player of equal skill? if you own someone up a few games, it's easy to keep em scared. good players understand how and when to counter every situation, so it more or less becomes an exercise in patience and capitalizing off of mistakes. i'm probably ranting, but eh.At top level it's pretty much, lets just say, "trading" mind games. Both are trying to accomplish the same thing, therefore, they will do the same thing to accomplish that, but just in different ways. At that point, it's a matter of who can keep up with what their doing and what the opponent is doing.

[SupMalek]

Just watch the LG vs Buktooth match to see some great Vice and Maki Mix-ups on Justdefend.com. I still don't know whether the heavy parrying at the end by LG was through desparation or Buk getting predictable.

[Mickey D']

good players understand how and when to counter every situation, so it more or less becomes an exercise in patience and capitalizing off of mistakes. i'm probably ranting, but eh.

But you see, this goes back towards the tests and what not. If they know how you react in certain situations, they already have you beat.

[No D]

Just watch the LG vs Buktooth match to see some great Vice and Maki Mix-ups on Justdefend.com. I still don't know whether the heavy parrying at the end by LG was through desparation or Buk getting predictable.

Vice- yes....... :wow: never seen that before.

Maki- meh :rolleyes: :wgrin:

[Buktooth]

Just watch the LG vs Buktooth match to see some great Vice and Maki Mix-ups on Justdefend.com. I still don't know whether the heavy parrying at the end by LG was through desparation or Buk getting predictable.
Or better yet, don't watch that match at all. There were some serious execution problems going on, and watching that match makes me cringe.

[Mickey D']

Long time Buk, could you possibly enlighten me with a post concerning Mind games....

I know how you don't like repetitiveness in srk forums....but I don't think this has ever been posted before. So, what do you think? Could you post somethin?

[Buktooth]

I've always thought mind games was just a sillier term for mix ups. Like if I do low jab, wait, counter hit jab jab super, then do low jab, wait, throw. OOOOH MIND GAMESSSSSSSSSSSS

...in short, all of you are over-analyzing something that's really simple.

[popoblo]

I've always thought mind games was just a sillier term for mix ups. Like if I do low jab, wait, counter hit jab jab super, then do low jab, wait, throw. OOOOH MIND GAMESSSSSSSSSSSS

...in short, all of you are over-analyzing something that's really simple.

LOL, amen. OR the choi secret of playing C-ken and doing blocked crouching shortx2 then walk all the way to you like he's going to throw you, then you freeze and try to tech throw/stand up (because he's choi, so you stand up and get baited) then eat shorts into level 2 ish.

people complicate footsies too much also.......

peace

[No D]

Or better yet, don't watch that match at all. There were some serious execution problems going on, and watching that match makes me cringe.

Your too good.... nobody can say anything but.... :karate:

I liked how you did.... early small jump mk with Maki to level 3 Punch super...../"I know u wanted 720" :woot:

You had LG soooo :wasted: with your Vice/ he couldent even parry punish.... :clap:

[Mickey D']

Hmmm...I beg to differ. When I talk about mind games, I don't talk about mix ups per se. Even though in my last few posts I HAVE indeed been talking about counter hits and crossups and what not. However I wanted to lean more towards the learning of how to manipulate how your opponents' thinking. Wether it be from counter hits, to getting your opponent pissed about something, or what happens in certain situations.

Like LTB said, it could be a mere game of RPS....just a 33.3 percent of guessing the right selection. However I think it's all in people's opinions.

[vasAZNion13]

Your too good.... nobody can say anything but.... :karate:

I liked how you did.... early small jump mk with Maki to level 3 Punch super...../"I know u wanted 720" :woot:

You had LG soooo :wasted: with your Vice/ he couldent even parry punish.... :clap:


i dunno why, but i always do my 360 in the qcf direction. not havin the punch super come out is a lot better than not having anything come out. :/

[wepeel]

talk about mind games??? im sure you guys just want another pattern to use against scrubs since they already know how to throw you out of your tiger uppercut, 2x tiger crush for crossup...

so yeah, here's a pattern.

whiff those s. shorts with sagat so that they deliberately do not touch the opponent. as in not blocking...but you want it to almost touch him. your opponent (works best if he is also sagat) will try to hit your leg like a fool, probably with a fierce or something, so that's when you go in and s. fierce xx super.

there now you can say "ohhhh i got mind game skillzzz"