Did Evo2k4 kill CvS2?

[Utopian]

CvS2 just seemed so much more popular before Evo.

It seems to me that the low japanese turnout and the fact that evo was won by a relatively weak japanese A-groove player took some of the steam out of CvS2. Also the fact that everyones hero Daigo was eliminated by what many felt were inferior opponents, may have knocked a few players off as well.

About a year ago CvS2 and MvC2 were neck and neck in terms of popularity, now MvC2 is clearly the favored game.

[caliagent#3]

About a year ago CvS2 and MvC2 were neck and neck in terms of popularity, now MvC2 is clearly the favored game.


:rofl: , i'll just say that you're mistaken. Many people have picked up cv2 recently especially within the last year since it was released on XBL. MVC2 on the other hand is slowing down

[Mickey D']

Mvc2 is definitely slowing down...what with top players like Row and Kuan not even caring to play any more. Yea Mvc2 actually used to be way ahead of cvs2 in my opinion.....I don't think cvs2 is really getting hurt because of evo2k4. The reason why people don't post anymore is because things are getting to repetitive....nothing good ever comes around, therefore no one posts.

It's funny and ironic that i say "It's becoming repetitve..." Because i know i've wrote this post like....4 times now ^^ just an example of the rendundancy of this board.

Not only that but it's fall/winter, school is here, people lose interest for the time being, etc.

[Shin Ace]

Mickey's got it. The good players just don't post anymore. So now all posts are noob posts that have archived answers. It's getting really boring. But cvs2 is still my game of choice.

[Utopian]

Actually can someone move this to "Fighting game discussion"?

This isn't strategy, after all.

[ragnafrak]

kindebu is such a shitty japanese a-groove player!! WHAT A ***!!

lets just totally ignore the fact that he was on mago and sawada's sbo2 team (that won, wow he sucks)

[vasAZNion13]

kindebu is such a shitty japanese a-groove player!! WHAT A ***!!

lets just totally ignore the fact that he was on mago and sawada's sbo2 team (that won, wow he sucks)

i think what he meant was that kindebu was a lesser "KNOWN" japanese player. and a lot of the japaenese player who hoped to see at evo(ino, otk, bas, mago) did not show up.

kindebu, dan, rf? i sure as hell didn't know who they were before evo.

[Mickey D']

It seems to me that the low japanese turnout and the fact that evo was won by a relatively weak japanese A-groove player took some of the steam out of CvS2.


No man....he did indeed say that Kindebu sucked. Whatever though. I think that the WORST thing bout finals was the fact that Ricky dropped a custom that would have made him win. I mean...dropping cusotoms are hellz l33t skrukkah! :tup:

All in all....evo 2k4 = :tdown:

[Utopian]

kindebu is such a shitty japanese a-groove player!! WHAT A ***!!

lets just totally ignore the fact that he was on mago and sawada's sbo2 team (that won, wow he sucks)

From what I understood Kindebu wasn't even the best A-groove player in Japan, he wasn't even second best, he was somewhere like seventh best.

And I never said he sucked, I said he was relatively weak(again from what I heard) in relation to other Japanese players. If he came to live in america he would be the best.

And sure he won with mago and sawada on his team. If I joined a tournament on Buktooth and Chois team and won would that mean I was as good as them? I heard mago was OCV'ing whole teams by himself.

[FMJaguar]

CvS2 is pretty volitile. The more people see of it the less exciting it is, then people see more of it and it falls out of favor again. Hell we can barely decide which version to play.

EVO is not the reason for this, it's more that there's not really a better game available, so we keep taking the things we like about cvs2 and try to make it into a good game. Then in practice, it loses to what we don't like about cvs2 and it becomes a bad game again.

I wouldn't look too much into the japan results, i don't see why daigo's style should be the best in every game, in every tournament. Lets not forget he needed miracles in 3s two years in a row.

[CrotchMonkey]

i really thought cvs2 was going to be downright eliminated for cfe... thats my biggest worry right now.

[iKlEiTlH]

It seems to me that the low japanese turnout and the fact that evo was won by a relatively weak japanese A-groove player took some of the steam out of CvS2. Also the fact that everyones hero Daigo was eliminated by what many felt were inferior opponents, may have knocked a few players off as well.

About a year ago CvS2 and MvC2 were neck and neck in terms of popularity, now MvC2 is clearly the favored game.

Saying Kindebu is "relatively weak" is pretty harsh and disrespectful to his skills (regardless of where you heard it from). Have you ever seen anyone take out Choi in one set AND Ricky in TWO sets of a big Cvs2 tourney? Dan is supposed to be one of the best in Japan and Ricky took him out easy (not knocking Dan's skills, but he lost bad). Then Kindebu took out Ricky twice. He also took out Ino when they played during SBO2, and Ino was the evo champ from last year (taking out Daigo in the finals). The ONLY thing Kindebu was lacking this past year was a famous name.

I really don't know where people are getting these crazy rankings where there's a "7th best A-Groove Japanese player." How would people even come up with shit like that? The fact is that if you can win a tourney with over 300 participants from various countries where the important matches are 2/3, then you should definitely be considered one of the best at the game (and not something like "oh he's the best compared to AMERICAN players, but he's just OK in Japan." Saying something like that is pretty much shitting on the player AND everyone he's beaten to get the win.

Also, Marvel has always been WAY crazier than Cvs2 in terms of popularity mostly due to the numerous rivalries and anticipated matchups that emerge year after year. There's WAY more shit talking regarding the Marvel scene than there is with the CVS2 scene. That's what keeps Marvel going after all these years.

[kcxj]

Fat Japanese guy is sick at CvS2. Notice whenever he gets his Bison CC blocked, he knows better than to go for a throw or roll behind like a scrub right away? He knows to go for the counter hits instead as that's where all the damage is. Same thing with Blanka too. He did jump forward, CC, fierce, fierce, short, (land), tripguard against Choi's C-Sagat at Evo. Him faking so it totally looks like he's going to throw, then doing CC, d.LK is the cheapest thing ever as well. In fact, from the look of the Evo matches to me, I don't think this guy is beatable. Period. That team gives him way too much of an unfair advantage (psycho crusher to escape everything with Bison) and he obviously knows and is proficient in every one of the common match-ups, tactics, and various gimmicks.

Keith is just upset that people are shitting on Kindebu because he plays Maki though.

[box]

Yeah. Kindevu's main weakness was his Sakura vs Vega matchup. Ricky Ortiz bested him in this one.

[Buktooth]

some points to make:

1) there is always an off-season after evo every year where EVERY game drops in popularity.

2) of all the games at evo, the scene for marvel has taken the biggest hit.

3) low japanese turnout? This year's evo had about as many japanese top 8 placers as any other year.

4) kindebu is top tier status in japan. He may not be as good as sawada or bas, but he's definitely not far behind. He can beat any given player on any given day.

5) the only person who can't decide which version of cvs2 to play is FMJaguar.

6) cfe is definitely not replacing cvs2. Especially not with everybody deciding that cfe sucked like 6 months ago and being very determined to not like it.

[box]

6) cfe is definitely not replacing cvs2. Especially not with everybody deciding that cfe sucked like 6 months ago and being very determined to not like it.

I'm not so sure about this one. I thought the new SBO 2k5 added CFE to their lineup, while taking out CvS2. They still left in 3rd strike though.

[FMJaguar]

2) of all the games at evo, the scene for marvel has taken the biggest hit.


I think that was true around evo time, but i'm not so sure about today. A lot of EVO is the ec/wc/japan rivalries, and in mvc2 there is no japan, and seattle was mia. However i think ec has had it's own little power struggle going on that makes it exciting.


5) the only person who can't decide which version of cvs2 to play is FMJaguar.


A lot of the people that would agree have decided not to play any version, so that may be true now.


6) cfe is definitely not replacing cvs2. Especially not with everybody deciding that cfe sucked like 6 months ago and being very determined to not like it.

I don't really think we'll know the truth on this for a year or so, but I don't see why we can't give it a good try before saying it should be dumped.

[cheese_master]

FMJ...

did you go to evolution this year? because from your posts it sounds as though you have made a close observation as to whats going on with the fighting game community. in order to do so, you probably have attend tournaments like evolution. i was just curious, because you didn't go to MWCs, which was much closer the Evo (or at least I didn't see any one else there using Johnny in GGXX).

[Utopian]

Saying Kindebu is "relatively weak" is pretty harsh and disrespectful to his skills (regardless of where you heard it from). Have you ever seen anyone take out Choi in one set AND Ricky in TWO sets of a big Cvs2 tourney? Dan is supposed to be one of the best in Japan and Ricky took him out easy (not knocking Dan's skills, but he lost bad). Then Kindebu took out Ricky twice. He also took out Ino when they played during SBO2, and Ino was the evo champ from last year (taking out Daigo in the finals). The ONLY thing Kindebu was lacking this past year was a famous name.

I really don't know where people are getting these crazy rankings where there's a "7th best A-Groove Japanese player." How would people even come up with shit like that? The fact is that if you can win a tourney with over 300 participants from various countries where the important matches are 2/3, then you should definitely be considered one of the best at the game (and not something like "oh he's the best compared to AMERICAN players, but he's just OK in Japan." Saying something like that is pretty much shitting on the player AND everyone he's beaten to get the win.

Also, Marvel has always been WAY crazier than Cvs2 in terms of popularity mostly due to the numerous rivalries and anticipated matchups that emerge year after year. There's WAY more shit talking regarding the Marvel scene than there is with the CVS2 scene. That's what keeps Marvel going after all these years.


Did you see how Kindebu won? A win is a win but it wasn't like Kindebu completely dazzled Choi with his awesome mindgames and tricks. He barely beat Choi with random hop activation, which is about as generic as it comes.

And in my eyes, Ricky vs. Dan was a bit of an upset. Ricky beat Dan fair and square but I wouldn't really say Ricky is a better player, which is what you seem to be implying, more like Ricky played a better game.

But I digress: my point is that a lot of players who would have brought some variety and excitement to CvS2 this year didn't show up. Instead we got a ho-hum final between two A-groove players. Probably the only thing worth mentioning is that Buktooth got top 5 with his random N-groove team.

P.S. Maybe Kindebu was/is better than what I, and a lot of other people thought, but he still didn't generate a lot of excitement. Last year we got Daigo vs Ino, this year we got Ricky vs Justin Wong's stunt double.

[FMJaguar]

FMJ...

did you go to evolution this year? because from your posts it sounds as though you have made a close observation as to whats going on with the fighting game community. in order to do so, you probably have attend tournaments like evolution. i was just curious, because you didn't go to MWCs, which was much closer the Evo (or at least I didn't see any one else there using Johnny in GGXX).

If you have information from evo or mwc that contradicts what was said in my last post I would be interested in seeing it.

The scene is a lot of places, tournaments, irc, aim, cell phones.. running 365 days a year. For instance if you just take evo, marvel might seem dead. But if you don't count evo, you might think that noone supports console tournaments, and that would also be wrong.

[Ouroborus]

just what the fuck is so exciting watching daigo play over kindebu?

[The Great Sephiroth]

P.S. Maybe Kindebu was/is better than what I, and a lot of other people thought, but he still didn't generate a lot of excitement. Last year we got Daigo vs Ino, this year we got Ricky vs Justin Wong's stunt double.

Deciding whether to watch tourney finals based on just the amount of hype so-and-so brings is like someone refusing to acknowledge the new and up-and-coming players that worked their asses off to get far in a big tournament. Besides, the Ricky vs. Kindebu match had some excitement, since it came down to clutch situations which is obviously more exciting to watch than random beatdowns that end in 30 seconds. And Ricky could've won a match if he didn't screw up his custom in the clutch situation, while like you said, Kindebu had to resort to a clutch Hop Activate to win.

[iKlEiTlH]

Did you see how Kindebu won? A win is a win but it wasn't like Kindebu completely dazzled Choi with his awesome mindgames and tricks. He barely beat Choi with random hop activation, which is about as generic as it comes.

And in my eyes, Ricky vs. Dan was a bit of an upset. Ricky beat Dan fair and square but I wouldn't really say Ricky is a better player, which is what you seem to be implying, more like Ricky played a better game.

But I digress: my point is that a lot of players who would have brought some variety and excitement to CvS2 this year didn't show up. Instead we got a ho-hum final between two A-groove players. Probably the only thing worth mentioning is that Buktooth got top 5 with his random N-groove team.

P.S. Maybe Kindebu was/is better than what I, and a lot of other people thought, but he still didn't generate a lot of excitement. Last year we got Daigo vs Ino, this year we got Ricky vs Justin Wong's stunt double.

Yeah, I did see how he won and you know what? I WANTED Choi to win, yet I'm still giving more respect to Kindebu's game than you are (even though I wanted him to lose). You make it sound like it's easy to beat Choi with a "random hop activation" that's as "generic as they come." Funny I don't see other people really being able to beat Choi at all in cvs2.

How was Ricky beating Dan an upset? I believe Ricky beat him 4-0 throughout the entire tourney, and NONE of the matches were even close. That's only an upset if you just favor Dan in general and YOU were the one who was actually upset he lost.

You're pretty much saying that Evo finals weren't as exciting because no one that was SUPER FAMOUS or chose a crazyass low/mid-tier team made it into the finals. Not everyone plays to be flashy (especially in big tournies). Buk is probably one of the few if not THE ONLY player in the US who can take a team like that into the final 8 at a tourney as big as Evo.

You can't really blame the fact that the CVS2 scene is quieting down on Kindebu/Ricky not playing hella flashy in the finals. They played to win, not to make sure all the fanboys would cream their pants at crazy combos.

[Dr.B]

CvS2 is here to stay as long as the players still play and put heart into the game...CFJ ( CFE ) is a fun game..it doesnt suck..it's pure fighting minus extra gimmicks...I really enjoy it when wanting to take breather from the CvS2 cabinet.

-B. :clap:

[popoblo]

*snip*

AMEN, close the thread now, the truth has been spoken. dan got beaten pretty badly by ricky. all of his fireball games got eaten up by a reflexive vega who can jump over them on reaction and punish.

people were also really shocked when daigo got beaten by roger williams and then eliminated by eddie lee. roger and eddie played to win, and daigo played his aggressive/haphazard style to woo the fanboys, and he got beaten fair and square.

[RagingStorm101]

Fat Japanese guy is sick at CvS2. Notice whenever he gets his Bison CC blocked, he knows better than to go for a throw or roll behind like a scrub right away? He knows to go for the counter hits instead as that's where all the damage is. Same thing with Blanka too. He did jump forward, CC, fierce, fierce, short, (land), tripguard against Choi's C-Sagat at Evo. Him faking so it totally looks like he's going to throw, then doing CC, d.LK is the cheapest thing ever as well. In fact, from the look of the Evo matches to me, I don't think this guy is beatable. Period. That team gives him way too much of an unfair advantage (psycho crusher to escape everything with Bison) and he obviously knows and is proficient in every one of the common match-ups, tactics, and various gimmicks.

Keith is just upset that people are shitting on Kindebu because he plays Maki though.

Uh can you explain that whole Bison thing again? Are you saying that he did the CC and stopped before the meter was over and then did tripguard loss to combo into a scissor kick/pyscho crusher?

[The Great Sephiroth]

Uh can you explain that whole Bison thing again? Are you saying that he did the CC and stopped before the meter was over and then did tripguard loss to combo into a scissor kick/pyscho crusher?

Uhhh, he means that when Kindebu's Bison CC gets blocked, he tries to continue to set it up while the meter is still running by getting counter hits into CC because most people's reaction is to try to hit Bison out of the CC when they see a gap in the guard crush string.

The tripguard he's referring to is the Blanka tripguard done on an airblocking C-groove character. Though I'm sure Bison has a tripguard custom too but it's better to go for his anti-air custom instead...

[Utopian]

Yeah, I did see how he won and you know what? I WANTED Choi to win, yet I'm still giving more respect to Kindebu's game than you are (even though I wanted him to lose). You make it sound like it's easy to beat Choi with a "random hop activation" that's as "generic as they come." Funny I don't see other people really being able to beat Choi at all in cvs2.

How was Ricky beating Dan an upset? I believe Ricky beat him 4-0 throughout the entire tourney, and NONE of the matches were even close. That's only an upset if you just favor Dan in general and YOU were the one who was actually upset he lost.

You're pretty much saying that Evo finals weren't as exciting because no one that was SUPER FAMOUS or chose a crazyass low/mid-tier team made it into the finals. Not everyone plays to be flashy (especially in big tournies). Buk is probably one of the few if not THE ONLY player in the US who can take a team like that into the final 8 at a tourney as big as Evo.

You can't really blame the fact that the CVS2 scene is quieting down on Kindebu/Ricky not playing hella flashy in the finals. They played to win, not to make sure all the fanboys would cream their pants at crazy combos.

I've been a little busy lately, that's why I'm responding now but anyways: remember my initial argument, I'm not here to debate what winning truly means, nor that everyone should play for the fans, I'm simply stating that last Evo Cvs2 was pretty standard and that may have killed some interest in the game.

Ricky beat Dan 4-0? Wow, I didn't know that. I guess Ricky is better than Dan, I'll concede that point.

Actually you know what, I'll just get to the jist of this whole debate which is: A-groove ruined CvS2.

[box]

So you have to be on par with Choi or Ino to hang with A-groove? That eliminates about 80-90% of CvS2 players past and present.

Sure you can win against A-groove with the right amount of skill but the point is, you shouldn't have too.

He said you have to be on par with Choi/buktooth/dan/justin to hang with "the best" a-groove players. That means Ricky Ortiz, Kindevu, Eddie Lee, RF, etc.

So are you saying that CvS2 would be a great game if people with zero skill should win against A-groove?

[GunterJPN]

A-groove ruined CvS2.

A-Groove didn't ruin CvS2. At the last EVO that was played on cabinets (i.e. when all the good people actually came), Ino won. He used K. He didn't have CCs. He didn't even have RCs. What he DID have was skill. He was able to deal with A-Groovers throughout the tournament. He probably still could, if he even bothered to play it. In fact, if you look back, Daigo got 2nd. He didn't use A-Groove either. There are tons of good players all over the world, and only a certain percentage of them use A-Groove. The only thing that "ruined" CvS2 is the people that complain about things they can't handle, or feel are too overpowering. "Crouching fierce is too good" ... "RCs beat everything" ... "A-Groove ruined CvS2" ... You hear every mall-scrub and his teenybopper posse saying these things about the game, and they're so vocal that people start believing it without even trying to prove it wrong. These people never took the time to develop their characters and their games like people like Ino, Daigo, Dan, Iyo, Makoto, Choi, Buk, etc. None of those players use A-Groove. All of them can hang with the best A-Groove players.

[Utopian]

So you have to be on par with Choi or Ino to hang with A-groove? That eliminates about 80-90% of CvS2 players past and present.

Sure you can win against A-groove with the right amount of skill but the point is, you shouldn't have too.

[The Great Sephiroth]

So you have to be on par with Choi or Ino to hang with A-groove? That eliminates about 80-90% of CvS2 players past and present.

Sure you can win against A-groove with the right amount of skill but the point is, you shouldn't have too.

He said hang with the BEST A-groove players. Hell, I'm sure they can pretty much rape random not-so-great A-groovers like nothing.