3s: Team Makoto Dojo

[Arlieth Tralare]

Just for quick reference, my guide for Makoto at Gamefaqs.com is here: http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/street_fighter_iii_3rd_strike_makoto_c.txt

(I just updated it to v1.7 with Tanden Renki tactics, except I now have some new stuff to research because of it.)

This thread was created to gather all you Makoto fanboys out there to get some exposure on this girl. I believe she's a horribly underplayed character.

Futhermore, it's time for you bitches to stop using the Abare Tosanami.

To those of you who don't know yet, Makoto's Tanden Renki possesses a large amount of invincibility frames (perhaps the highest in the game, but someone should check the 3s Bible) after the activation of the super. Her zero-frame recovery, plus this invincibility period lets her destroy almost any guessing situation in the entire game- and in this game, guessing is EVERYTHING. There are a few characters that this tactic isn't quite as effective against (Necro, for example, is a little harder to capitalize with this against), but characters such as Ken, Hugo, Alex, Dudley and the like will be VERY hard pressed to attempt to out-guess her.

Furthermore, because of the zero-frame recovery, Makoto can parry an attack, activate her super, parry the next phase (or dodge it) and then retaliate with her Fukiage (DP+P uppercut). Or hell, just activate super then Fukiage. You can see the Akuma players wince in pain.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out what attacks and supers can be 'dodged' with and still achieve a Fukiage retaliation against. Akuma's KKR (DDD+PPP) is one move I'd really like to try this with.

Oh yeah, just before you run off to do something: The invincibility frames of Makoto's super requires the player to do absolutely nothing. Literally. However, she may parry an attack during her invincible phase, or jump.

Comments, findings, flames, whatever: throw 'em here.

[Dasrik]

That's too hard! Give me SA1! Ball buster!...

j/k... Verrry interesting. Makes me wish I played Makoto again.

[GalzPanic]

Ha, I luv the Rag/Period/PMS super. I just wish I knew how to use Makoto other than that. Never really thought of using it after parry...good plan. Howabout after command grab? Or super cancel dp+p? would that work?

[Gandido]

You tested those against me in SHGL, so I can vouch for you in saying that this stuff works. One hit = 20% on Ibuki (OUCH) so you REALLY made me feel bad. (even though I never had any Makoto experience)

[FMJaguar]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
[B]Just for quick reference, my guide for Makoto at Gamefaqs.com is here: http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/street_fighter_iii_3rd_strike_makoto_c.txt


one note: Gamefaqs has link protection, so you have have trouble clicking the link, you should copy it (IE - right click copy shortcut) go to www.gamefaqs.com then paste the url.

[SUPERCANCEL]

whats this 3S bible you speak of

[Arlieth Tralare]

If you want to use the Tanden Renki after a command grab, first hit them with Fierce, then cancel into Tanden Renki, then a C.Strong -> Hayate or a C.Roundhouse.

Or actually, you could just do the Fierce -> Tanden Renki, then dash forward. ^_^

As for the DP+P -> Tanden, i'd rather activate Tanden first while they're in the air. If you see the move come out, DP+P, otherwise grab them with her choke.

btw, thanks FMJ. I forgot about that.

Oh yeah. the 3s bible has like, every single piece of trivia in the game like frame data and stuff.

[SUPERCANCEL]

and where do i find this bible

[Arlieth Tralare]

Japan. If I knew for certain, I'd probably have one myself, but I don't. Get off your ass and do a Google search. =P

[AdverseSolutions]

On a coincidental note,

I pretty much spent all day looking for the 3s bible today in Tokyo. It's turning out to be about as hard to find as the lost ark. Every store directs me to another store to another until I had exhausted every store in Akihabara. I didn't manage to find the Arcade bible but I did find the 3s Dreamcast bible which is less useful but still worth it for the explanation of charge buffering and posterity. So I promptly stole it. Yes I am ghetto but Capcom has enough of my money. :) The Makoto section doesn't have anything particularly useful, no Tanden-renki setups. I saw a Makoto play today at More but he didn't do anything new really besides parry a jab srk, dash behind the guy (to get the range right), karakusa, combo.

-Sk!

[Thongboy Bebop]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jon's a mufuggin' THUG!

Team STD Rep-ruh-ZENT!

N

[Mouko]

I found my bible in Shinjuku, at the very top level of more. That is also where I bought my Zero 3 bible. I don't know if they'd still have any, but if you ever get a chance to go to More, go to the top floor and ask them if they have any.

Btw, I hope you bought a 3s tourney tape from mester during evolution Arlieth, because its way too good.

[Arlieth Tralare]

I didn't get to @(#*&(* go! Had work that weekend (I have two jobs). =(

I'll buy copies of your 3s tapes if you're willing to do so- or like, I could send you money and you could buy it for me, or something. I dunno. =P

By the way Jon... GHEEEEETTTTTOOOOOO

[Mouko]

sorry it is copy protected. The copy protection isn't as aparent when I watch it via capture card on my computer, but a lot of the good matches are tainted with the copy protection.

[AdverseSolutions]

Originally posted by Mouko
I found my bible in Shinjuku, at the very top level of more. That is also where I bought my Zero 3 bible. I don't know if they'd still have any, but if you ever get a chance to go to More, go to the top floor and ask them if they have any.

Btw, I hope you bought a 3s tourney tape from mester during evolution Arlieth, because its way too good.

Oh shit..yeah I saw that last night but it was closed. I'll check it out monday. Thanks Mouko.

<<HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jon's a mufuggin' THUG!

Team STD Rep-ruh-ZENT!

N>>

A thug gossa do wuh a thug gassa do! LOL,

-Sk!

::Bows before leaving the dojo::

[Arlieth Tralare]

Jon! When the hell are you coming back to the USA? =P

[AdverseSolutions]

Tom, October! :)

-Sk!

[Prism]

hi people... i didn't know this thread existed and was going to make a new one on makoto... ;P but oh well...

(i was directed by arlieth from the match-up thread...)

anyway, i have some newbie makoto questions.

please keep in mind that i only play 3s in arcade so i can't test these all that much myself... ;P so i'm sorry if these questions sound lame.

i've been using sa1 all along and from what's being discussed, it gives me the impression that sa2 is the super of choice at high levels...

so i've tried to use it, and it's very hard to connect with.

i know that you can cancel it off fierce in your own corner and off a qcb+punch... now here's the question.

1. in my own corner, sa2 with short and forward connect, but the roundhouse version doesn't. well if you're going for the roundhouse version you're not really cornered but is it true for everyone else or am i not buffering the super fast enough?

2. super after qcb+punch chop- does it connect regardless of where you and your opponent are on the screen?

3. after i connect sa2, i cancel the last punch into a superjump, do a qcb+forward and then land. now... i know i can do 2 more hayates, but every time i try, a qcb+punch chop comes out instead. i've tried doing qcb+punch after the axe kick (instead of hayate) but i think a chop came out that time as well. can someone tell me what i'm doing wrong?

4. after you knock someone down, you can dash back and kara grab, but sometimes the short kick connects/gets blocked and i whiff the grab. what am i doing wrong here?

any answers will be appreciated. thanks in advance!

[Arlieth Tralare]

1. in my own corner, sa2 with short and forward connect, but the roundhouse version doesn't. well if you're going for the roundhouse version you're not really cornered but is it true for everyone else or am i not buffering the super fast enough?

Uhh... dude. Roundhouse more often than not will MISS completely. Or maybe tag their head and go past their body. Never use roundhouse unless you have to. EVER. Short and Forward are sometimes interchangeable in Makoto's corner.


2. super after qcb+punch chop- does it connect regardless of where you and your opponent are on the screen?


Yes to Hugo, no to everyone else. Works better vs crouchers 'cause they have more hitstun.


3. after i connect sa2, i cancel the last punch into a superjump, do a qcb+forward and then land. now... i know i can do 2 more hayates, but every time i try, a qcb+punch chop comes out instead. i've tried doing qcb+punch after the axe kick (instead of hayate) but i think a chop came out that time as well. can someone tell me what i'm doing wrong?


You did the axe kick way too early.


4. after you knock someone down, you can dash back and kara grab, but sometimes the short kick connects/gets blocked and i whiff the grab. what am i doing wrong here?

Some characters have larger hitboxes and can still get hit with the short when they get up. Universal solution: time your grab so that they get up IN BETWEEN your kick and your grab. I have this down pat. Great for grabbing people out of supers. ^_^

[GinnaiDoma]

haha adverse stealing, do they like cut off the hands of thieves in Jap if you get caught? :lol: anyways, these game bibles sound expensive, how much do they charge for them?

EDIT:: After doin some google searching I found this:

www.animebooks.com

A section has like "All about SF3" and stuff

C has Capcom

S has Streetfighter......obviously....just thought I'd share that link

[kal el]

Arlieth:

Thanks for the tips. I am still quite anxious to see you perform all your tricks with Makoto (if you ever produce a vid). The one problem i'm gonna have is that most of the people I play against aren't used to Makoto. I know that in itself is also a huge advantage, but I can't really employ the "dodge" tactics you described after activating Tanden Renki as they will just block. I know also that this is prime time to brutalize them, but I want to see more aspects of the super.

Question...

Is it possible to juggle with this combo after Abare Tosanami?

(super jump cancel) MK Tsurugi -> (dash) HP Fukiage -> either HK Tsurugi, crouching roundhouse kick or juming fierce punch

I read on the gamefaqs 3rdStrike board that this was possible, but I'm not sure myself.

[Eternal Blue]

Man, I created this sick Makoto setup that dizzies, and is 100% if the opponent has never seen it before or doesn't expect it. It's not a combo, but it sure as hell may trick a few opponents.

Okay, it takes place somewhere relatively near the corner:

HCB + Short, HCB + Short, s. Fierce xx QCB + Strong xx SAII, sjc (super jump cancel) QCB + Forward, c. Roundhouse...they are now dizzy if they have Urien dizzy bar or less...SAII, sjc QCB + Forward, c. Roundhouse == DEATH (to Urien stamina or less)!

Tell me what you guys think.

[kal el]

Eternal Blue:

A standing fierce punch comboed into a strong Oroshi doesn't work on most characters. In fact, I think that that combo only works on the taller characters, i.e. Q, Hugo, maybe Urien as well. On top of that, they might have to be crouching so I don't know if you can do that combo after a Karakusa. I'm not entirely sure, but if it was totally possible, I'd do it all the time :D.

[Eternal Blue]

First of all, I stated that this is not a combo.

You can escape the 2nd grab after the first. It's just that most ppl know that good Mak players won't mess up, so they kinda just take it easy for a while...hehe. Similar example is with Alex's SGH...if he gets u, u just chill for a bit cause you know he's gonna do fierce FC, then fierce PB. But see, my friend (who i know to be VERY good and never messes up) did this to me...so I was like, okay, i'm fucked...so i kinda just dazed off for a bit...so after the first fierce FC, he did ANOTHER one, and then a fierce PB...tearing up my life bar in the process.

Okay, second thing is that after the 2nd grab, the fierce combos on anyone, but the QCB + Strong is NOT supposed to combo, its just that most ppl block low, so they MIGHT get hit by it, and then you can combo SAII off it. From there on, its all fair game cause they can't escape the dizzy or the followup super.

And remember, it may not work on ELITES or fucking robots who never mess up, but it sure as hell gets respect if u do pull it off. Dizzy + 100% == TOO GOOD...and probably an S++ rating if u got a perfect.

[kal el]

I see your point. It's pretty weird how you say that most people will block low though. From my experience, people are usually blocking high after a Karakusa because the usual attack that comes after a standing fierce is Abare Tosnami. But I'll keep that in mind :D. It might just work on somebody over here.

Also, I know about the 2 Karakusas. I do that a lot just to charge my meter. It's a cool trick.

[Eternal Blue]

Okay, I did some more testing and I discovered some new things.

1) I tried it on Ken, and I had some trouble getting the strong QCB + Punch to connect after the fierce pushed him back. After some more testing, I came to the conclusion that you need to do the fierce xx QCB + Strong as tight together as possible for the Overhead Chop to reach them.

2) You do not need the second HCB + Kick; it just adds more risk and the stun meter goes down while your doing the second, so it's basically pointless. The "combo" still stuns and does 100% without this.

3) You can do it midscreen, not just near corner.

4) It might not stun Hugo or some others, but confirmed so far are Urien and Ken. So that is most of the cast.

[Shotokan]

3s? O_O? it's gogo~~!:D

ortiz!:bluu:

[Arlieth Tralare]

Ugh. QCB+Strong is WAY too vulnerable unless you cancel into SA III. Makoto's defensive options are horrible if she gets knocked down- no need to waste an SA II doing it either. The karate chops should be used to bait them into a parry for SA III setups only, to chop down someone's obvious pokes, or kara-cancelled during a wakeup game (At back-dash distance, her three main options are sweep, kara-grab, and kara-chop.)

btw, QCB+Jab > SA II works against Hugo from fullscreen if he's crouching. Or pretty close to full screen. Only character it seems to work against.


Kal: After SA II, those finishers you mentioned... hmm.

Roundhouse axe kick: I should try it, but it's very risky. Your opponent can quickrise out of it because it' isn't part of the super, and you'll still be floating from the kick.

C.Roundhouse: I use that all the time to set up for another mind-game. Great stun.

J.Fierce: Like the RH axe kick, it poses a risk if you land first (depending on the character you use it against). Also, it doesn't have the stun qualities of the C.Roundhouse (her j.Fierce jumping straight UP does, but not her twd jump somersault Fierce) and the damage is reduced severely because it's a normal attack, not a special attack. (During combos, normal hits get a higher danage penalty than special attacks; this is the opposite of supercancelling a normal attack, which is usually penalized LESS than a special attack.)

To 'dodge' attacks with the Tanden Renki: You need to pull it off AS THEY BEGIN THE MOVE. Try it after you've been knocked down and you're getting back up, or doing a karate chop (QCB+P) and supercancel that when they parry it as THEY get up. Also try it when you jump at someone and not attack. You'll most likely dodge a grab.

[Arlieth Tralare]

I just did some calculations:

(If a super is listed as having x frames of invincibility, subtract 50 frames for black-screen startup time and the difference will be the invincibility frames in game-time.)

Makoto has 2 frames of invincibility for the Seichuusen Godanzuki (SA I), 1 (;_;) frame of invincibility for the Abare Tosanami Kudaki (SA II) and...

A whopping 36 frames of invincibility for the Tanden Renki: Seme no Kata (SA III).

WTF....

[Eternal Blue]

That's a lot of invincibility frames. Anyways, I wanna correct my combo. It seems you can't combo SAII from a strong Chop in the corner. You can only do it when you're in your own corner. I was under a different impression. Anyways, I decided that the best thing to do when you connect with a SAII is this:

SAII, dash, jab reset, SAII, sj forward Air Kick, c. rh, dash, rh grab, s. fierce xx fierce Dash Punch (dizzy)...now do rh grab, s. fierce xx fierce Dash Punch (they should be dead)...but just in case, finish with s. rh to push away (this part is just cause i like how s. rh looks :cool:)

[Arlieth Tralare]

Geese, let me put this plain and simple. I do not want, nor do I need your Theory-Fighter setups. Furthermore, your setups and combos have holes in them such as forgetting to throw an axe kick after the first SA II, then dash, jab reset, SA II, etc. Also, you CAN connect the super from a Strong chop in the corner on certain opponents (big guys.) Also works mid-screen.

I'm tired of having to correct your posts. Please don't bother posting in here again.

[Eternal Blue]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Geese, let me put this plain and simple. I do not want, nor do I need your Theory-Fighter setups. Furthermore, your setups and combos have holes in them such as forgetting to throw an axe kick after the first SA II, then dash, jab reset, SA II, etc. Also, you CAN connect the super from a Strong chop in the corner on certain opponents (big guys.) Also works mid-screen.

I'm tired of having to correct your posts. Please don't bother posting in here again.

Hey Arlieth, you obviously think you're some hot fucking shot in 3S cause you wrote some Makoto FAQ on www.gamefags.com, so I understand your pathetic need to put my setups down.

With that out of the way, SAII hardly ever connects off a jab/strong chop unless you're within your half of the screen. Even when you're exactly at half screen, it still doesn't work sometimes. I tried connecting strong chop xx SAII on Urien in the corner and it did NOT work. Unless you consider him a small guy...I dunno. It didn't work with Hugo either, if I recall correctly.

Second, you don't need to do the forward axe kick after the first SAII, you can just dash, s. jab reset, then do another SAII.

Third, go fuck yourself. I will post in this thread if I want you asshole.

[Arlieth Tralare]

We've settled this in #tosf. I won't bother disclosing what happened in there in this thread.

[kal el]

whoa...

A little hot in here, huh guys?

Anyway, Arlieth, I'm wondering if you could make those Makoto vids available. Are they on any site? More Tanden Renki scenarios would be nice too. Thanks.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Eh, i'm tired of arguing right now.

Anyways:

Makoto vids are available off of Evil Gill's FTP (or was he now Death by Aegis?) The location of that is:

ftp://65.28.184.12
password and username: srk
port 21

The Kara-cancelled EX Uppercut setups are available as files 3rd_makotoXX.mpg where XX =07, 08, 10 and 11.

Umm, right now, I don't have a lot of scenarios to set up for the Tanden Renki. I need to playtest it more. But to recap:

-When you're getting up
-Supercancelled off of a Strong chop when your opponent is getting up (you're good to go if they parried the Chop, more than enough time to escape a raging demon)
-When you land from a jump (like jumping over them, in front of them to bait a grab etc)
-While parrying or red-parrying a multi-hit attack or super such as Hugo's Hammer Frenzy (Use SA III to "dodge" the last hit of the Hammer Frenzy and retaliate with Fierce Uppercut -> Roundhouse Axe kick)
-After hitting your opponent with a Hayate/Dash Punch

You could use your imagination too. For example, try doing a Karakusa, Fierce -> Hayate(Hold,Cancel), wait for them to try to attack, activate SA III and then retaliate. If you've established a pattern of dashing in for another grab after the cancelled Hayate(old Japanese tactic), it works fairly well, but that's only relevant to my playing style, so I'm not sure what others do after a canceled Hayate.

[kal el]

Arlieth:

Thanks! The info you posted will be quite helpful.

I tried to access that ftp site, but I wasn't able to. I'll just ask someone else to get the vids for me.

[Prism]

thanks for the answers arlieth! i was wondering wtf i was doing wrong with sa2...

expanding a bit on my newbie questions:


Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
1. in my own corner, sa2 with short and forward connect, but the roundhouse version doesn't. well if you're going for the roundhouse version you're not really cornered but is it true for everyone else or am i not buffering the super fast enough?

Uhh... dude. Roundhouse more often than not will MISS completely. Or maybe tag their head and go past their body. Never use roundhouse unless you have to. EVER. Short and Forward are sometimes interchangeable in Makoto's corner.

i meant 'roundhouse sa2 in my corner' as in, from where you start the match, dash back once or twice so you can see your corner but you're still on the right side of the screen, karakusa, standing fierce buffer into sa2. it got blocked, and i was wondering if it isn't supposed to connect at all. i have a feeling it isn't.

i asked that question because some people say sa2 connects on 'your half of the screen' instead of 'your corner', so i thought you could connect sa2 off a standing fierce as long as you're on your half of the screen.

gah, i'm bad at explaining ;( i hope you understood.



4. after you knock someone down, you can dash back and kara grab, but sometimes the short kick connects/gets blocked and i whiff the grab. what am i doing wrong here?

Some characters have larger hitboxes and can still get hit with the short when they get up. Universal solution: time your grab so that they get up IN BETWEEN your kick and your grab. I have this down pat. Great for grabbing people out of supers. ^_^

hmm. i forgot to put in 'short kick connects/gets blocked against the SAME person (sometimes connects)'... i think it's because they were crouching. am i right?

ehhh, timing your grab to be excuted just when they get up sounds very hard. need practice, which means $$$ at the arcade ;P

also, kara-cancelling chops and dps sound very useful... i'm beginning to understand why makoto makes opponents guess.

thanks!


edit: i forgot to ask, which version of karakusa should i use? i've been sticking with roundhouse, but it seems the short version comes out much quicker while the range is not much different. any suggestions?

[granite]

anyone -
i'm having trouble doing the sa2 reset combo. the one that involves (what seems to be) doing the air qcb+mk late, dashing mp and sa2 again ..
first off, it looks like you need to connect the first sa2 at exactly midscreen (please correct me if i'm wrong) .. 2nd prob is that more often than not, by the time i do dash into stand mp, the guy is too low in the air to be hit ..

help? .. btw from looking at those ex-dp crossups clips, ex moves act like supers in resets ?? (aka only escapable through parrying?)
does that mean I could do something with ryu like ex kick thingy, stand wp, ex anything ?

[Arlieth Tralare]

*Thud*

When people say SA2 connects on your half of the screen, that means your OPPONENT must be on your half of the screen when you start the karakusa grab. Depending on the character's size, you may have to be even closer to your corner.

Yes, crouching characters often have wider hitboxes while crouching.

--

Ohh... no, you do the dash, jab(lp) after the air qcb+k, not a dash, strong(mp).

the EX-Uppercut crossup clips don't actually *juggle* the opponent, the opponent simply doesn't know where to block because the crossup hits so quickly. It doesn't actually continue the combo and hit the opponent while he's still in the air, the opponent actually landed first. If you were going to try that ryu stuff you mentioned, it'd whiff completely (because they were still in the air) or it'd be blockable.

[Zerogun]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
I just did some calculations:

(If a super is listed as having x frames of invincibility, subtract 50 frames for black-screen startup time and the difference will be the invincibility frames in game-time.)

Makoto has 2 frames of invincibility for the Seichuusen Godanzuki (SA I), 1 (;_;) frame of invincibility for the Abare Tosanami Kudaki (SA II) and...

A whopping 36 frames of invincibility for the Tanden Renki: Seme no Kata (SA III).

WTF....

WTF... I know that it was long.. but never that long. That means you can actually start it against a jump in...

And the invincibilty frame for the abare is bullshit. The one frame you get is when you're crouching up on top of the corner ready to come down. Whatever. I've been supered out of it so I know it isn't the part where she is coming down.

Love the priority though.

[Thongboy Bebop]

Eternal Blue ain't shit, don't pay attention to his dumb Canuck ass. "Oh look at me, I live a thousand miles away from civilized society and good bathroom hygiene and I can play 3rd Strike like nobody's bidness 'cause I'm Canadian and I'll never have to fight a real battle!" Get off it sucka, every time you make up some dumb ass untested knowledge, anyone who knows their shit (Which Arlieth OBVIOUSLY does, being as he's one of the only Makoto players anyone knows the name of) calls you on your ignorance and you get all flamey. Go find a forum on manual gratification of barnyard animals, eh? At least then you can speak from experience.


N

[Arlieth Tralare]

True, the Abare's invincibility frame is bullshit. I dunno, maybe you could dodge one hit of the Seraphic Wing or something. :)

I dunno, maybe I'll see if Makoto has a hole where she could Abare through Gill's Meteor Storm. That'd be hella dope. Watch her fly in between the projectiles through a gap in the bursts.

Man, when you're bored, you're bored.


Hey, thanks for the support Thongboy, but it's cool, j0.

[FMJaguar]

From watching the japan videos it looks to me like they are using s.fierce-> rh abare, however i was pretty sure that doesn't connect. Can someone confirm or deny this?

[kal el]

actually...

There are times when I use roundhouse Abare Tosanami after Karakusa -> fierce punch. I do this against the taller characers such as Hugo, Urien and Q, so it's not completely useless :D. I'm pretty sure if you use roundhouse Abare against the shorter characters, you'll just zip by. It's either that or you'll hit them once but continue forward. Elena has a pretty weird property. With the Shotokan characters, Dudley, 12, Necro, etc., you can use forward Abare Tosanami when you're in your corner (after Karakusa -> fierce punch). With Elena, however, you have to think of her as one of the shorter characters, i.e., Yun, Yang and Ibuki. As such, you have to use short Abare Tosanami when you're all the way in your corner.

[Time Mage]

Hey, Arlieth, I have a question about SAII:

When you do the SAII->dash cancel->Fierce DP->EX DP... Can you connect anything after it?
A Hayate or a cr.HK or something has to hit, but I've tried this two times or so, and I can't...

I would test it myself, but I won't be able to try it in two weeks or so...

Thanks for the answer!

[Arlieth Tralare]

Time Mage: no juggles after htat combo... *yawn* fuck i'm tired -_-

[FMJaguar]

How do you compensate for the lack of a great wakeup/reversal? For instance using the y's/akuma divekick, even after a parry sometimes she can't seem do do much about it since they can land and continue the sequence anyway.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Umm, two things. if they're really close and standing, parry into jab into karakusa. Also, low short -> hayate works,.. but all in all, I'd use the SAIII to wake up. ^^

[Prism]

Originally posted by FMJaguar
How do you compensate for the lack of a great wakeup/reversal? For instance using the y's/akuma divekick, even after a parry sometimes she can't seem do do much about it since they can land and continue the sequence anyway.

sa1 ;P

well, i think arlieth said that makoto is bad in a defensive position and i think part of the reason is the fact that she has no reversal/wakeup move.

[MuziKal]

AAHHH Makoto(sighh)what a gal!;)

[Arlieth Tralare]

FMJ: He's right- Makoto really has jack shit for safe reversals and wakeups. Best to block and look at their range.

But personally, to me SAIII is her best wakeup, period. You get two guessing games to pull: one right before startup to parry/dodge the move (or read their jump), and if they don't actually do anything, then you can either throw them, grab them, wait and see what they do, jump, etc.

[Eternal Blue]

wouldn't a command grab be alright if u reversal it? cause i've seen it suck normals in and even specials.

[Prism]

Originally posted by Eternal Blue
wouldn't a command grab be alright if u reversal it? cause i've seen it suck normals in and even specials.

isn't karakusa a bit too slow to be used as a reversal? and i don't think it's got too much priority, either, but don't quote me on the priority bit ;P

and of course, you'd have to be in range.

[FMJaguar]

The karakusa can throw people out of most things on startup, but if the attack is already out (e.g. on her wakeup), it'll of course hit her before she can throw.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Karakusa has anywhere from 7-9 frames of startup. HORRIBLE for a wakeup reversal.

C.Short has 4 frames of startup, still really bad, but marginally better.

In comparison, Chun gets 2 frames of startup for her jabs. WTF?!?!?!?

[Eternal Blue]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Karakusa has anywhere from 7-9 frames of startup. HORRIBLE for a wakeup reversal.

C.Short has 4 frames of startup, still really bad, but marginally better.

In comparison, Chun gets 2 frames of startup for her jabs. WTF?!?!?!?

I checked out ur website...I like it. I also love, not just like, how you wrote horrible in caps to show how HORRIBLE my suggestion for reversing with the command grab was. And who the hell wakes up with a c. jab???? Nobody I know.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Chun can reliably crouching Jab her way out of a trap against, say, Yun during Gen'ei Jin. Also, 2-frame crouching Jab comes out fast enough to beat a lot of throw attempts. It's fucking nuts.

Makoto's fastest non-super moves require at least 4 frames to come out.

Geese, if you're honestly taking my opinion of your suggestion personally, think about what I pointed out. Would you REALLY want to use (or even try to defend your point about) a wakeup that took SEVEN FRAMES of startup? I mean, I gave you the benefit of the doubt for not knowing the frame startup, but don't call attention to it and make a big deal out of it. I don't want to flame you or anything, but you just made yourself look like an idiot. Don't reply to this, Geese. Honestly.

[Eternal Blue]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Chun can reliably crouching Jab her way out of a trap against, say, Yun during Gen'ei Jin. Also, 2-frame crouching Jab comes out fast enough to beat a lot of throw attempts. It's fucking nuts.

Makoto's fastest non-super moves require at least 4 frames to come out.

Geese, if you're honestly taking my opinion of your suggestion personally, think about what I pointed out. Would you REALLY want to use (or even try to defend your point about) a wakeup that took SEVEN FRAMES of startup? I mean, I gave you the benefit of the doubt for not knowing the frame startup, but don't call attention to it and make a big deal out of it. I don't want to flame you or anything, but you just made yourself look like an idiot. Don't reply to this, Geese. Honestly.

I don't give a shit about frame startup or frame recovery. You try to be so technical, kinda like a robot or something. I just play the game and use common sense on what to use and what not to use and when to to use it. It's called experience. All you do is play Theory Fighter based on frames. Nobody I've ever played woke up with a jab...it's just stupid, I'm sorry. Waking up with a command grab is much better. 7 frames? OH NO! SO HORRIBLE. Give me a fucking break. And I responded. Big deal. Get a life.

[AdverseSolutions]

Originally posted by Eternal Blue


I don't give a shit about frame startup or frame recovery. You try to be so technical, kinda like a robot or something. I just play the game and use common sense on what to use and what not to use and when to to use it. It's called experience. All you do is play Theory Fighter based on frames. Nobody I've ever played woke up with a jab...it's just stupid, I'm sorry. Waking up with a command grab is much better. 7 frames? OH NO! SO HORRIBLE. Give me a fucking break. And I responded. Big deal. Get a life.

LOL....you're reaching kalok levels at this point.

-Sk!

[FMJaguar]

I don't give a shit about frame startup or frame recovery. You try to be so technical, kinda like a robot or something. I just play the game and use common sense on what to use and what not to use and when to to use it. It's called experience. All you do is play Theory Fighter based on frames. Nobody I've ever played woke up with a jab...it's just stupid, I'm sorry. Waking up with a command grab is much better. 7 frames? OH NO! SO HORRIBLE. Give me a fucking break. And I responded. Big deal. Get a life.

Frame data is the truth. 7 frames (and recovery frames) might not be a big deal to you for some reason, which is no suprise if people fall for those wack makoto setups over and over. In the world of reality, that startup means that unless your opponent walked up to you, *waited* until you got up, then did like a EX special for no reason, your going to get hit. I've probably played more makoto in the past week than ever, and i can tell you that it's bad enough that missing a normal setup means losing, god doing a wakeup one on that hope is suicide.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason *I* asked about the wakeup is because I found out that the grab is poor, are you gonna say i'm not doing a wakeup grab right? That your 'experience' says that it works? Of course you failed to mention if the opponent does anything other than stand there and wait makoto loses 50% for free trying that grab, or is data like that too technical for you?

[Arlieth Tralare]

I've woken up with a crouching jab before. But there was more to it than that.

When I got up, I tapped down and hit the throw command simultaneously for option select. Ken sat there and blocked the jab that came out instead of the tech-hit because you can't throw when you're crouching. So then, I got him with a karakusa. Risky, yes, but he was dashing up to me with constant c.short-jab-short combos to use the SA III on. I was vulnerable to a Strong-Fierce xx uppercut combo, but any low attacks or kara-throws would have been defended against.

Why did Ken sit there blocking? Because he expected me to wake up with the Tanden Renki and didn't want to risk sticking a move out.

-------

Why is a jab before a karakusa sometimes better than using the karakusa by itself? Because it comes out in half the time. You can also use it in instances where you think your opponent will jump out to keep them on the ground.

Also, all command grabs are not created equal. I dare you to try and wake up with Yun or Yang's HCB+K command throw. Really. On the other hand, Hugo's Moonsault Press has TWO frames of startup, which beats every jab or short poke in the game if done at the same time, except maybe Chun Li's. Yun and Yang's HCB+K command throw also has seven frames of startup, and I can't even remember how many times i've been hit out of THAT one.

The main reason Makoto's command throw seems so good is that the Forward/Roundhouse versions of it have an 'active' time of 4 frames(3 frames for the Short version). That means it's possible to see the throw come out, dash in, and then get grabbed. Anyone who's ever gotten nailed by Necro's Slam Dance probably knows this feeling. (For the record, THAT one has 6 frames of active time. For a command throw, even a super, that's like, not even fair. =P)

Nevertheless, waiting for the 7-frame startup time with your opponent doing absolutely nothing when you're waking up... those situations are incredibly rare. Most likely you'd eat a 50% combo. And Geese, did it ever occur to you that I told you not to reply for *your* benefit?

[Eternal Blue]

You know, some ppl like to wake up with nothing and just wait to block ur reversal. Command grab on those types of players works. Also, you test the waters sometimes. You do command grab on wakeup, if it doesn't work, don't do it anymore, if it does then it was worth it. Ppl don't usually wait for someone to get up thinking that they will combo that person for 50% damage. At least that's not the mentality where I play.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Obviously, that's about the only time a wakeup karakusa would work, yes. But it is in no way a 'safe' wakeup or reversal, as you originally suggested.

[AdverseSolutions]

<<

When I got up, I tapped down and hit the throw command simultaneously for option select. >>

Perhaps a stupid question but does this option select actually work? It never seems to work for me, Chi Hao also felt that it was a red herring...

-Sk!

[tinder]

Originally posted by AdverseSolutions
<<

When I got up, I tapped down and hit the throw command simultaneously for option select. >>

Perhaps a stupid question but does this option select actually work? It never seems to work for me, Chi Hao also felt that it was a red herring...

-Sk!

IIRC (good ol xcape days) the conclusion was that it works.. just not for command throws. This has to be done immediately (down+command throw). Hardly anyone I know does this though especially since this method doesnt solve for UOH, meaties and other distancing moves. It's a viable option but IMO its safer just to block and tech hit.

[AdverseSolutions]

Originally posted by tinder


IIRC (good ol xcape days) the conclusion was that it works.. just not for command throws. This has to be done immediately (down+command throw). Hardly anyone I know does this though especially since this method doesnt solve for UOH, meaties and other distancing moves. It's a viable option but IMO its safer just to block and tech hit.

Word. Was it ever a question with command throws though? I don't think that was ever part of the question. Reportedly, Ryu can tech random command throws, but I've never seen it in action. I agree with block and tech hit. But here's the converse, Tinder, if you decide to tech hit, might as well hit down right?

-Sk!

[k_dog77803]

If anyone wants the Street Fighter III 3rd strike bible you can get it at animebooks.com. They also have the Street Fighter III all about the characters book, I dont have that one thou.

[AdverseSolutions]

Originally posted by k_dog77803
If anyone wants the Street Fighter III 3rd strike bible you can get it at animebooks.com. They also have the Street Fighter III all about the characters book, I dont have that one thou.

Good lookin out K-dog but that is the dreamcast version, which isn't terribly thorough or applicable to the arcade version, decent for completeness, but really only worth stealing. STD! Also, the characters book looks a lot like the SF3 guide published in the US which I still have (pretty damn good guide too).

-Sk!

[k_dog77803]

Originally posted by AdverseSolutions


Good lookin out K-dog but that is the dreamcast version, which isn't terribly thorough or applicable to the arcade version, decent for completeness, but really only worth stealing. STD! Also, the characters book looks a lot like the SF3 guide published in the US which I still have (pretty damn good guide too).

-Sk!

No, they really do have the fighting bible for Street Fighter III New Generation. I have it and it is for the arcade. It shows the moves for the arcade stick and everything.

I also have the SF III 3rd strike: fight for the future book, and that one is for the dreamcast version of 3rd strike. The one with Chun-Li on the cover is for the Dreamcast.

The other All about SF III: Fighting bible is for the arcade version of New Generation.

[tinder]

Originally posted by AdverseSolutions


Word. Was it ever a question with command throws though? I don't think that was ever part of the question. Reportedly, Ryu can tech random command throws, but I've never seen it in action. I agree with block and tech hit. But here's the converse, Tinder, if you decide to tech hit, might as well hit down right?

-Sk!

You're right. On a semi-related note, does that fighting bible or dc guide list the meaty moves for every character? That would make all this rock/paper/scissor nonsense a lot more interesting.

[k_dog77803]

Originally posted by tinder


You're right. On a semi-related note, does that fighting bible or dc guide list the meaty moves for every character? That would make all this rock/paper/scissor nonsense a lot more interesting.

Yeah, it has all of the moves and all of the characters colors! The bad thing is it all in japanese. But in the back of the books it has the directions for all the moves, with all the arrows and stuff. But again it's hard to know what arrows are for which moves.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Actually "simultaneously" may be misleading. I probably delayed the tech-hit command about 5 frames after I hit down. I don't know this exactly, but there's a couple of tech-able frames that you're allowed to escape from in every normal throw.

[BillyKane]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Actually "simultaneously" may be misleading. I probably delayed the tech-hit command about 5 frames after I hit down. I don't know this exactly, but there's a couple of tech-able frames that you're allowed to escape from in every normal throw.

I noticed this as well, sometimes you're allowed to tech very late after the throw animation begins -or at least it looks like it. It's particularly noticeable with throws that shift the attacker's sprite position very fast at start-up.

I wonder if anyone knows the tech-able frame data, it could perhaps prove useful to see how useful option select defense really is.

[Darmonde]

I used to option select a lot, but rarely do now. In my humble experience, throws in 3s you have the pre-throw frames, the grab, and then a tiny number of frames after the throw has connected to tech. If you do a standing throw, you can tech during any of these frames of your opps throw. But if you option select, I believe you can only tech the throw itself and the few frames afterward. So if your opp has started throw when you option, but hasn't actually grabbed you yet, you start your cr. jab/short and immediately get thrown out of it. The window is definitely smaller to tech even if this explaination is wrong in some way.

I'm positive it works, but I think it's options are limited (no pun intended). more than half the time I tried it I'd get thrown anyway, and if they don't throw, you get a blocked cr. jab instead of a throw yourself.

Feel free to correct me, anyone who knows for sure.

[Arlieth Tralare]

And the blocked C.Jab is precisely why I'm using it- to set up for a tick throw.

[Arlieth Tralare]

I've been curious about other Makoto players like Ricky Kimball and Those Nebraska Peeps (I can't remember whether it was Butch or Datrick that used her). What constitutes your Makoto playing styles? Have you guys started using SA III and the SA II crossup kara-EX Fukiage(DP+PP) setups yet? How often are cancelled Hayate attacks utilized in your matches (C.Short -> Hayate (cancel) dash in, Karakusa) Blah, blah, blah.

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
I've been curious about other Makoto players like Ricky Kimball and Those Nebraska Peeps (I can't remember whether it was Butch or Datrick that used her). What constitutes your Makoto playing styles? Have you guys started using SA III and the SA II crossup kara-EX Fukiage(DP+PP) setups yet? How often are cancelled Hayate attacks utilized in your matches (C.Short -> Hayate (cancel) dash in, Karakusa) Blah, blah, blah.

Sup, this is Ricky Kimball. I've just started playing SAIII, I've used SAII forever. I don't think I'm going to continue using SAIII though because I don't like the lack of EX moves. I like all the meter that comes with SAII. What DP+PP setups are you talking about? I've never heard about them. I use Hayate cancels sometimes, not too often. I'd like to use them more though. Don't have much comp here, thats my main problem. My main game is RUSH RUSH RUSH STUN STUN STUN!!! I'm consistant with Abare combos and shiet. Thats probably what makes me so scary, I dunno. Later.

[Yoshon]

I'm having trouble linking an Abare Tosonami out of a standing fierce from a Karakusa. I can only do it very rarely. Does anybody know a way to do it effectively?

[BillyKane]

I don't think there's any real trick, you just need to improve your execution. Just make sure you're doing it on your half of the screen though.

[max6366]

ok what can't u do??? connect the fierce after the grab or connect the sa after the fierce???
ok here is the thing to connect the hp after the grab: as soon as u see the opponent's feets touching the floor (u'll hear her screaming a little) hit HP.
To connect the SA: hold back while doing the hp and when u see the animation starting do the sa motion (do 2 hcf not 2 qcf). Voila hope it helps...
BK t'as repris les cours??? moi des que je trouve mon taf c bon on pourra se fritter et je te rendrais tes 10euros lol^^

[Yoshon]

Wow, thanks. That actually seems like it'd work. ^_-

[BillyKane]

Je reprend dans 2 semaines, wael. Je suis chaud pour jouer ca fait longtemps la. J'avais oublie pour les 10 euros en plus. :)

[Arlieth Tralare]

Here's some of the DP+PP setups:

J.Short vs. aerial opponent, land before they do, EX DP

SA II, late axe kick, dash past them, Jab, Short (Karacancel) EX DP

SA II, late axe kick, dash past them, Strong, dash past them, EX DP

vs. quick-rising character in the corner: Short (Karacancel) EX DP


-----

Too many people here (Frankie3s, StrikerGod, Paul Lee, blahblahblah) know how to avoid SA II setups, especially getting choke-grabbed in the corner. Sometimes I can get it off, but being able to reverse the match for 30% free damage plus offense gets to be really handy sometimes. I just wish the meter and time lasted half as long instead.

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Here's some of the DP+PP setups:

J.Short vs. aerial opponent, land before they do, EX DP

SA II, late axe kick, dash past them, Jab, Short (Karacancel) EX DP

SA II, late axe kick, dash past them, Strong, dash past them, EX DP

vs. quick-rising character in the corner: Short (Karacancel) EX DP


-----

Too many people here (Frankie3s, StrikerGod, Paul Lee, blahblahblah) know how to avoid SA II setups, especially getting choke-grabbed in the corner. Sometimes I can get it off, but being able to reverse the match for 30% free damage plus offense gets to be really handy sometimes. I just wish the meter and time lasted half as long instead.

Wow! Those are nice tricks, I'll start using them now.

I know how you feel, the little comp I have here rarely let me karakusa them near the corner and block my chop super cancels. ARGH!! I feel like I can't land Abare anymore. I may have to start using Tanden Renki.

[FMJaguar]

I'm looking at the vids and makoto does a s.fierce into SA2 *RH* against ken, by the time the super connects he's on his half of the screen, i don't see how this would normally combo. Also is there a functional difference between the 3 karakusas?

[Arlieth Tralare]

Yeah. I noticed that too. Wierd as hell.

btw, there IS a difference between the karakusas, but it's slight. More lag, more range, more 'hit detection' time. Equal hitstun.

[kriptonx]

I regret saying things about Makoto. I might concider learning to play with her.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Lately I've been doing some more work on Makoto and her Fukiage against parried attacks.


Corkscrew Blow: Jab Fukiage after 4 parries. I'm not good enough to red-parry the 4th hit and uppercut the 5th, though.

Hammer Frenzy: Jab or Strong(?) Fukiage AFTER the final hit is parried/red-parried.

If I find more, I'll post 'em.

[liquid-snake]

I think that I play quite a good Makoto but recently a new player from Japan has started playing at our local gamecentre.

I have no idea how to beat him he is too good at parrying and whenever I try to dash he reacts to it with HK,(EX) machine gun blow with dudley.

he also uses hkxxduckingxxcorkscrew blow/mix-ups

How would you go aout playing against someone like this?

Your advice wanted please.

[max6366]

If he parries well trap him with some mix up high and low (mak is damn good at this) plus do that: jump and do hcb+hk very late the anim will come out but won't hit and then command grab him. Also u said he did hk as soon as u dash to him. abuse of her back dash, walk forward back dash(he will have a reaction if he is that good) by example if u double back dash he might want to jump at you then dash forward and command grab or mp exshoryuken(if he parries the mp in air of course). This might be old stuff but it's some little tips i'd recommand versus a dudley like that but anyway u just talked about his defense what about his attack skills (that might be in countering his attack that u will win) so tell me more about his attack style. one last thing PARRY!!

[Arlieth Tralare]

Sweep liberally.

Also, during certain karakusa clinches, after your Fierce -> Hayate, you MAY wish to consider DASHING BACK to avoid the Short Swing Blow. Afterwards, decide on whether or not you want to try to fake him out with a cancelled Hayate (QCF+Hold Punch or [P], K to cancel) or what. Also, if he jumps in on you at long distances, don't be afraid to attempt a kara-cancelled EX Fukiage. At closer ranges, if he jumps at you, expect a very delayed J.Fierce- to counter, stick out an EARLY Strong punch and cancel into strong Fukiage.

If he reacts to dashes with Roundhouse, fake him out with those cancelled Hayates.

But honestly? You're way out of your league, I think.

[liquid-snake]

Originally posted by max6366
If he parries well trap him with some mix up high and low (mak is damn good at this) plus do that: jump and do hcb+hk very late the anim will come out but won't hit and then command grab him. Also u said he did hk as soon as u dash to him. abuse of her back dash, walk forward back dash(he will have a reaction if he is that good) by example if u double back dash he might want to jump at you then dash forward and command grab or mp exshoryuken(if he parries the mp in air of course). This might be old stuff but it's some little tips i'd recommand versus a dudley like that but anyway u just talked about his defense what about his attack skills (that might be in countering his attack that u will win) so tell me more about his attack style. one last thing PARRY!!

Well his attack style is Hkxxducking then Throw or d+lkx2 or some close range pokes that give frame advantage, not sure cos I don't use Dudley.....
He likes to use d+hk occasionally and also f+mp?? Overhead attack
He jumps straight up with no attack and Throws
He is a really fast player which causes a lot of problems cos sometimes I attack without thinking properly and get parried

[liquid-snake]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare

But honestly? You're way out of your league, I think.

Me too lol! Just wanna try and improve my Makoto game, I can win a match every now and again with Urien my best character.

[FMJaguar]

Just a quick update, you can connect the combo in the vid. Grab ryu slightly on your half of the screen, fierce XX RH abare, the fierce pushes ryu to the other side of the screen and the abare still connects.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Odd. I wonder if the RH hits more quickly than the forward version.

[ilian]

I play a whole lot of Makoto, and consider myself the best Makoto in the area.

The thing is though, I use and love super art 1. I understand, and appreciate the damage potential of Super Art 2, but it just doesnt seem ot have the uses that the first one does..

My problem with super art 2 is, you can play entire rounds, never getting an opportunity to use it. When watching or playing tourny matches 95% of the time I see it connect from a command grab on Makoto's half of the screen.

With super art 1, you know, if you ever fill it up, the next time you hit them they WILL eat your super art. It combos from almost EVERY move I do. Once I hit meter, all i need to do is land a c. forward / c. short / c strong / c.jab / command grab / hyate / axe kick and you will hit your SA. Often if is even usefull as a wakeup, or after parrying jump ins. It just seems to be usefull in almost 10x the cases as SA2.

Yeah it sucks not to have as much EX power as SAII, and i understand that karakusa->fierce->hyate->Super Art isnt getting the most damage for your super meter, but it IS consistant damage that you can rely on, and is easy to connect with, and it IS decent damage.

I mean how many hyates or c.forwards do you connect with in a match? that number seems to be a lot higher than the number of karakusa's you get when your on your half of the screen.


This is not a flame in anyway, I want to IMPROVE my game, so if you have advice or a counter point, please let me know =)

[FMJaguar]

I can see where your coming from, I did some testing, the SA1 extends farther than the c.fwd (so you can do whiff c.fwd super). The reason i didn't pick it at first is because i didn't like the damage from the karakusa (51 with no followup, and almost no advantage while a fierce XX EX rush does 38), but after testing it does 69 alone, i got fierce, fierce rush, SA1 to do almost 100 (no grab), but then the next time it did 80 so i have no idea what the real damage is on that. I'm kinda tired so i'll look more later in the week and post a better list. SA2 works great against opponents that don't know you, basically anything inside 3/4 screen means they aren't allowed to whiff moves, and they aren't going to want to come inside your half of the screen, throws off gameplay. The thing it wears thin after a few matches, so i may try 1 since it's a bit safer than 3, I just worried that 1 meter supers get a bit obivous.

[Daly]

Originally posted by ilian
I play a whole lot of Makato, and consider myself the best Makato in the area.

The thing is though, I use and love super art 1. I understand, and appreciate the damage potential of Super Art 2, but it just doesnt seem ot have the uses that the first one does..

My problem with super art 2 is, you can play entire rounds, never getting an opportunity to use it. When watching or playing tourny matches 95% of the time I see it connect from a command grab on Makato's half of the screen.

With super art 1, you know, if you ever fill it up, the next time you hit them they WILL eat your super art. It combos from almost EVERY move I do. Once I hit meter, all i need to do is land a c. forward / c. short / c strong / c.jab / command grab / hyate / axe kick and you will hit your SA. Often if is even usefull as a wakeup, or after parrying jump ins. It just seems to be usefull in almost 10x the cases as SA2.



Yeah it sucks not to have as much EX power as SAII, and i understand that karakusa->fierce->hyate->Super Art isnt getting the most damage for your super meter, but it IS consistant damage that you can rely on, and is easy to connect with, and it IS decent damage.

I mean how many hyates or c.forwards do you connect with in a match? that number seems to be a lot higher than the number of karakusa's you get when your on your half of the screen.


This is not a flame in anyway, I want to IMPROVE my game, so if you have advice or a counter point, please let me know =)

MakOOOto ;)

I didnt know at all that u could connect SAI after a hayate (works with all versions??) or after a crouching fwd. I thought u couldnt connect anything after a hayate.

[ilian]

yeah you can connect SA1 after a hyate..
The timing is kinda weird so it takes some practice, it is MUCH easier if they are ducking, but its pretty usefull..

Probably the most common way i connect it is, they jump, i dash under them, c. short -> jab hyate -> SA1.

You can also link it from the crouching forward if your close to them, just dont input it too fast, wait until her leg is coming back, and then hit it. As the previous poster mentioned, its possible to wiff this one if they arnt close enough.

Also, if they are on the ground, and you do a medium axe kick, when you land you can go right into super art.. or, if you get it real deep you can do, axe kick -> c.foward -> SA1, or axe kick -> c. strong -> hyate -> SA1.

If you hit them with the medium axe kick in the air, you can juggle them into SA1 in the corner.. axe kick -> juggle wiht hyate -> dash forward -> SA1. This is reallly hard to time though,but it kinda reminds me of juggling with Q's SA2.

If your SA1 them in their corner, you also end up the perfect distance away to kara cancel her standing short into karakusa.

[Arlieth Tralare]

I dunno- I still like the EX axe kicks I get with SA 2. But right now I'm especially working on SA 3 setups for anti-air and stuff.

[Daly]

The hayate into SAI is a cancel or a link?

Can u buffer the hayate motion and then do another qfc to do the SAI, or u have to input the whole motion of the SAI after connecting the Hayate?

[Ssongro]

Originally posted by Daly
The hayate into SAI is a cancel or a link?

Can u buffer the hayate motion and then do another qfc to do the SAI, or u have to input the whole motion of the SAI after connecting the Hayate?

It's a link, so this answers the second question, full SA motion must be done.

[Ssongro]

With a HP hayate. Well, it's the only one I can get for the SAI to connect.

[haqeyy]

know of any sites or places i can purchase or dl 3rd strike tournaments, combos, or skill-smith ?

mail me at

haqeyy@yahoo.com

[Lassic]

The most damaging combo for Mako is this:

1. Do the comand throw ( HCB LK)

2. Combo with fierce punch and cancel it with the second super art.

3. super jump and do the low kick axe kick.

4. Dash and do her dragon punch.

5. Super jump and then do a air fierce.

6. The enemy is dizzy.

7. Straight Jump with landing MK standing HP then Hayate.

8. he will probably be dead.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Dear Lassic:

That combo only stuns Remy and Akuma off the bat. Everyone else must take some extra stun damage beforehand for that to work.

Actually... maybe I shouldn't even send this post out. Oh well.

*REJECTED!*


-Arly, watching way too much goddamn Strongbad

[Lassic]

Dear Arlieth:

That combo DOES STUN EVERYONE at least I know it stuns ken, akuma, remy, chun li, yun and yan. I guess u are starting the combo without doing the comand throw first. If u do it that way it leaves the character with only a tid bit of stun bar left but if u command throw u will get the stun for shure.

Believe me I have a few of Japan tourneys of 3S and everyone that uses Mako does that combo and when they start it the stun meter is zero so it DOES STUN THE OPONENT!

Rejected:lol:

[.AJ]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Dear Lassic:

That combo only stuns Remy and Akuma off the bat. Everyone else must take some extra stun damage beforehand for that to work.

Actually... maybe I shouldn't even send this post out. Oh well.

*REJECTED!*


-Arly, watching way too much goddamn Strongbad

Dear Arlieth Tralare:

The combo work for most of the caracteres, this thread suckz anyway

[sentinel67@]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Dear Lassic:

That combo only stuns Remy and Akuma off the bat. Everyone else must take some extra stun damage beforehand for that to work.

Actually... maybe I shouldn't even send this post out. Oh well.

*REJECTED!*


-Arly, watching way too much goddamn Strongbad

You this malde so that the blows of combo with almost all the characters as I and seen all those say to Aj combo with my own eyes study a little but the game and will see that we are the right.

[Dasrik]

I was playing at SHGL yesterday and Ken I. choke grabbed me from a freaking quarter screen. WTF? Kara throw???

[Eternal Blue]

Originally posted by Dasrik
I was playing at SHGL yesterday and Ken I. choke grabbed me from a freaking quarter screen. WTF? Kara throw???

i dont think it qas quarter screen but it was a kara throw. just stay in ur corner and bad things wont happen. by bad i mean less bad then what she will do to u if u are in her corner.

[Arlieth Tralare]

To AJ, Lassic, and company:

Choke Grab -> Fierce -> SA II -> Strong/Fierce uppercut -> j.Fierce/Roundhouse Axe kick/C.Roundhouse will only stun Remy and Akuma. Everyone else is close to stunned, but it isn't 100%. Try it on someone with *100% health.*



Dasrik: Here's the catch- if you get hit with Makoto's short kick, the kara-cancel won't work. :)

Also, crouching attacks move your hitboxes pretty damned far. Ibuki in particular can get nailed from nearly half-screen if she does a C.Roundhouse and gets grabbed out of it by a kara-command throw.

[max6366]

arlieth read their combo again it's the one u are mentionning...
it's the one performed on the 1st G-up tape 3 on 3 tourney mak vs urien so take a look at it again...(dunno if it stuns everyone)

[Lassic]

I guess u are a moron

[Homer Pimpson]

Has anyone been using Tanden Renki lately? Ive been using it, and i think im starting 2 like it better than Abare. Shes got so many tricks and karakusa setups that landing one grab at the least really isnt that hard. Some chars it is though, (Chun, cough).If i dizzy them while in angry mode i always do deep jump roundhouse, standing fierce, fierce hayate. Ridiclous damage. It also kinda has a A3 VC like property where you can activate sometimes rite through and parry shoto cr short or forward.Also does this with Hugos cr forward if you can see it coming. Anyone else been using it? Setups?

[FMJaguar]

Originally posted by MrSimpson
Has anyone been using Tanden Renki lately? Ive been using it, and i think im starting 2 like it better than Abare. Shes got so many tricks and karakusa setups that landing one grab at the least really isnt that hard. Some chars it is though, (Chun, cough).If i dizzy them while in angry mode i always do deep jump roundhouse, standing fierce, fierce hayate. Ridiclous damage. It also kinda has a A3 VC like property where you can activate sometimes rite through and parry shoto cr short or forward.Also does this with Hugos cr forward if you can see it coming. Anyone else been using it? Setups?

Umm scroll back a few pages =)

[Eternal Blue]

j. fierce, s. fierce xx fierce hayate does more.

[Homer Pimpson]

Originally posted by FMJaguar


Umm scroll back a few pages =)

lol i see >) I just never payed any attention to it untill now. /me goes peeps Arlieths faqs page)

[Gandido]

If I recall correctly the only thing that Makoto has that stuns everyone is the EX-Fukiage reset after the abare tosanami. I don't know if it does full stun, but if anyone could tell me, it would be appreciated.

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Gandido
If I recall correctly the only thing that Makoto has that stuns everyone is the EX-Fukiage reset after the abare tosanami. I don't know if it does full stun, but if anyone could tell me, it would be appreciated.

This is correct. The only way to stun characters with medium and large stun meters are either reseting with the EX-DP or reseting with another Abare. Both of which can be escaped. There isn't a true combo that stuns anyone but Akuma and Remy. The combo Lassic posted does like 98% stun on medium stun meters. Its damn close, but no cigar, sorry.

On a similar note, WTF IS UP WITH DUDLEY AND ORO HAVING LARGE STUN METERS?!??!?

Ricky

[Evil Rahsaan]

Originally posted by Orochi Kyosuke


This is correct. The only way to stun characters with medium and large stun meters are either reseting with the EX-DP or reseting with another Abare. Both of which can be escaped. There isn't a true combo that stuns anyone but Akuma and Remy. The combo Lassic posted does like 98% stun on medium stun meters. Its damn close, but no cigar, sorry.

On a similar note, WTF IS UP WITH DUDLEY AND ORO HAVING LARGE STUN METERS?!??!?

Ricky

Stop stealing my setups you bastid.

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Evil Rahsaan
Stop stealing my setups you bastid.

:lol: "sure guy". BTW, how's MY(!) Makoto doing up there in NYC?

[Evil Rahsaan]

Originally posted by Orochi Kyosuke


:lol: "sure guy". BTW, how's MY(!) Makoto doing up there in NYC?

Eh, getting rushed the fuck down by the twins.

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Evil Rahsaan
Eh, getting rushed the fuck down by the twins.

:lol: Damned those twins. Just learn a shoto and call it a wrap, or get better with Alex. Either of which=problem solved.

[Evil Rahsaan]

Originally posted by Orochi Kyosuke


:lol: Damned those twins. Just learn a shoto and call it a wrap, or get better with Alex. Either of which=problem solved.

Lmao word, makoto needs a fucking flaming dragon punch. Oh yah, i practiced alex hardcore last night, and i'm gonna use he makoto and necro from now on.

[Homer Pimpson]

Originally posted by Evil Rahsaan


Lmao word, makoto needs a fucking flaming dragon punch. Oh yah, i practiced alex hardcore last night, and i'm gonna use he makoto and necro from now on.

Elec snake....

[shadowcharlie]

Originally posted by MrSimpson


Elec snake.... ...Mag storm

[Arlieth Tralare]

Makoto's two best things to use against the twins:

-Dashing under dive kicks

-Jump away with Forward kick

[erco]

okay, I have real problems connecting karakusa after a blocked s.strong. I did a meaty s.strong at minimum range and still wasn't able to grab. Hrm, now that I think about it, I think they were still in block stun. Do you cancel the s.strong into karakusa or wait for it to retract then karakusa, or do you have to wait a tiny bit? hrm.

Also, if I was using s.strong as an anti-air, it gets parried, can I cancel it into abare? not sure if it's fast enough. Also, s.strong as an anti-air is too good. If they parry it, cancel into strong dp or hayate. If they learn to parry twice, cancel into a karakusa. Too much fun with s.strong.

[ShinRyuX]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Makoto's two best things to use against the twins:

-Dashing under dive kicks

-Jump away with Forward kick

Excatly at what range do you decide to dash? Do you dash at the moment you see the twins jump? What can be done afterwards as a follow up? And I am assuming that you are using jump away forward when they dive? I wonder if s. strong can beat the dive kicks. What else is good against yun/yang?

[Arlieth Tralare]

Strong >> Karakusa is a Link.

You could cancel into Abare, but I prefer DP instead. If the Strong gets parried, no guarantees what could happen.

Strong does not beat divekicks.

No followups. Those two tactics are for evasion and resetting the momentum of the match. against Yun and Yang.

[EVIL5150]

Could someone clearly lay out how to do Makoto's bad ass Abare combos?

What is her most damageing combo from her own corner and what is her most damaging one in the opponent's corner.

I can't consitently connect with either a double super or uppercut after a the abare from her own corner. What's the trick?

I have been able to hit Ryu in his corner with 2 Abares, 1 right after the other, only the second hit of the second super missed. This was in the Arcade though, so I don't know exactly what kind of damage I was capable of doing.

[shiniduo]

call me a n00b but I'm having trouble against Ken,Yun and Urien using this gal any useful tips...:confused:

[max6366]

shinduo if u have troubles against urien that"s wierd japanese charts makoto vs urien 7/3 (and it's the version where urien has the fas...in dc i'd say 8/2)

for the combo the thing u must know is that her last move of the super is cancelable with a super jump or dash VERY VERY early as soon as u see her beginning her move (not even hitting) start dashin and do the move in the invert (facing right dash uppercut facing left)

[shiniduo]

Originally posted by max6366
shinduo if u have troubles against urien that"s wierd japanese charts makoto vs urien 7/3 (and it's the version where urien has the fas...in dc i'd say 8/2)

for the combo the thing u must know is that her last move of the super is cancelable with a super jump or dash VERY VERY early as soon as u see her beginning her move (not even hitting) start dashin and do the move in the invert (facing right dash uppercut facing left)

umm ok gonna practice some more,anyway thanks for info...

[Kamui18]

Against Urien, toss cr. mk's a lot, it beats just about everything he can toss at you, except for his standing fierce.

Against Yun, knock him down and the match is half won already. Doing that is the hard part though.

Ken can be a relly finnicky match, but IMO, fighting Chun is harder especially with that back+fierce (optional sa2 cancel *Ouch*) of her's. Any tips on closing the distance safely against a runaway Chun who likes to use back+fierce and jumps away at the slightest chance?


Heck, Makoto wins by knocking the opponent down once, adn it's all mind games form there.

[shiniduo]

thanks fo some answers...

actually I have no problem with Yun at the beginning of the match....I'm really having a hard time when Yun starts poking...

[Burningfist]

Urien - Watch out for his jumping roundhouse and the rest is pretty easy.

Ken - Take advantage of his rushing style to jump straight up roundhouse his ass. Him on your side = free stun, take advantage of that.

Chun Li - Jump straight up roundhouse works wonders on chun li. Tick throw her ass because people seem to forget her fast footsies when they start b+fp-ing everything. Cross her ass up if you can, especially if they are using super 2.

Yun - Cant really comment, no one fucking uses the twins around here lately. I'd assume though that a well timed chop would spell doom if placed right, mp version canceled into super that is.


Just a question, does makoto's c.rh beat out divekicks?


Oh, and what are some good kara uppercut combos?

[DeadlyRaveNeo]

Arlieth, how bout sharing some of those SA3 setups. :D :D

[Arlieth Tralare]

Well, there's Strong Chop into SA 3, I'd like to get down Strong xx SA 3, and there's also low-short-to-hayate-fake-dash-in-karakusa-fierce-hayate-sa3 but that last one's too hard to say in real life. :)

Personally, after a connected hayate tends to be a good time to use it if you pull it out rarely.

[Arlieth Tralare]

just messed around with Makoto's SA 2 -> axe kick, uppercut, j.fierce combo.

Little tricks:

The axe kick doesn't have to be done THAT early, but still early. You have a nice little window of between 1/6th to 1/4th of a second to do it.

The uppercut motion should be done as soon as possible, and the punch (Strong punch) done after a delay. Don't try to do the uppercut motion too late.

Your opponent will most likely bounce behind you (in the original direction of the super.)


It actually does 2 more points of damage than her normal axe kick -> hayate x2 followup, and more stun than the dash, uppercut -> rh axe kick.

Just so you guys know.




ALSO: Regarding SA 3

It seems that normal moves have a super-cancel delay of 2-3 frames, while special moves have a super-cancel delay of only 1 frame.

Where this comes into play is Makoto's Strong punch used in conjunction with SA 3. It would be nice, in theory, to be able to make your opponent guess upon wakeup whether or not your Strong punch will lead to a tick throw or not, but it's certainly very parriable. But if you know your opponent will parry it, then couldn't you simply cancel into SA 3?

Well, yes and no.

If you're too far away to be thrown and your opponent has no supers or uber-fast attacks such as EX attacks, Chun Li's low Jab, etc, your Tanden Renki can be pulled out after your opponent's parry.

On the other hand, if they do happen to have fast-retaliatory moves, you're SOL. Alternatively, if you had used a Strong Chop (QCB+P) and cancelled into SA 3, no matter what moves your opponent has, you're safe.

[EVIL5150]

doesn't Makoto's sa2->mk.axe-, fp.hayate,c.fk do 3 more points of damage?

also the RK version of abare can be connected almost anywhere near the middle of the screen. If you get Makoyo to cross-up away from a corner she can nail Ryu off of a s.fp with sa2 every time. It may even do more damage.

What is the most damaging Makoto sa2 combo in damage points?

[ufightlikeagurl]

Tom... like I said b4, you're crazy! :sweat: :lol:

[Homer Pimpson]

Yo thanks for the SA3 info Arlieth >)

[ChWMeiNThG]

Ive figured the ultimate strategy against fighting Arlieths makoto...hit on his little sister! worked for me :]:lol:

[ufightlikeagurl]

Originally posted by ChWMeiNThG
Ive figured the ultimate strategy against fighting Arlieths makoto...hit on his little sister! worked for me :]:lol:

Omg...thats just wrong. :lol:

[Original Geese]

Originally posted by EVIL5150
What is the most damaging Makoto sa2 combo in damage points?

While I'm not absolutely sure, i think it is this:

rh grab, s. fierce xx forward SAII, dash, rh SAII, axe kick, uppercut, j. fierce

(the last part is from Arlieth's recent post) the problem with me when trying to do this combo is that when u do the second SAII, its harder to do the uppercut, but this was back when i was testing 2nd saii, dash uppercut, c. rh. with arlieth's setup, it might be easier. anyway, im not sure...i guess arlieth would probably know her most powerful combo...if he does, i will post it on my site >> http://worstlookingsiteever.tripod.com

[Arlieth Tralare]

The problem with the second SA II in the combo is that Makoto ends up being closer to the opponent while juggling him/her. So what happens is that when you jump up for the axe kick, you may be past their body and end up whiffing the MOTION (not even the move) entirely. You could jump with a really early axe kick so you don't jump past their body, but then you'll have to attempt to kara-cancel her Hayate with Short kick just to reach them, probably the only time you'll ever have to kara that move.

Evil5150: When using Normal attacks (as opposed to special attacks) in combos, you'll find that they take more of a damage penalty (7%) than special attacks (5%). But remember that the damage penalty is cumulative. =P

choke grab -> fierce -> sa 2 -> axe kick -> hayate -> C.Roundhouse:

The C.Roundhouse is the 9th hit, and takes (IIRC), a 9*7% (63%) damage penalty. However, if you used a 2nd Hayate instead of the C.Roundhouse, it would be 9*5%(45%) for the damage penalty. So it makes sense that the fewer hits in the combo, the closer the damage is between normal and special attacks, so you need to see the damage differences between Choke -> Fierce -> SA2 -> combo, and just SA 2 -> combo by itself.

Also, it seems that there's a few battles (Dudley, Alex), where the short and fast properties of their vertical jumps make it dangerous for Makoto to attempt a choke grab. Options, options, options.... Working on those right now.

Edit: Oh yeah, I *have* tried using the Roundhouse SA II lately. WTF?!?!?!? That thing's fucking DEADLY, j0! Makoto now gets to dominate 2/3rds of the screen. Agh.

Finally: For SA 3, i appears that her best matchups with it are: Shotokans, Alex, Ibuki, uhh...

Midmatchups: Q,

Worst matchups include: Dudley, Hugo(!), ...
More on this later. I require munchies.

[ShinRyuX]

Against which character can the oroshi chop(qcb+p) be used to hit their limbs? Is the chop for more of an anticipatory move or in reaction? Also, I've seen the ex oroshi stun opponents from full screen against necro and afterwards an ex hayate was connected but it seems you can only do this trick against him.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Honestly, I don't use the chop all that much to hit anticipatory pokes, since my own ranging skill isn't very good and Makoto has piss-poor walking speed, making it very difficult to figure out where you can use it without worrying about eating the poke.

--

Looking back at the earlier post made by Lassic, I realize I made a mistake about misinterpreting the combo he posted. I didn't notice the axe kick he threw in before the uppercut, thinking instead that he was talking about SA 2 -> dash, Uppercut -> j.Fierce.

However, a few things.

- After the axe kick, YOU DO NOT DASH. It's just axe kick, uppercut.

- Even with the additional axe kick, the choke -> fierce -> sa2 -> axe -> strong uppercut (Fierce uppercut misses more often and does equivalent Stun damage to the Strong) -> j.Fierce (and no, before anyone other than Wael asks, no kara-EX uppercut for j00. Whiffs.) will STILL only stun Akuma and Remy at 100%. Testing was done on Ibuki and Yang, and if anyone has low stun meters after Remy, it'd most likely be them. I can dig up the exact charts if necessary and if someone finds an exception.

[Repulsorgiest]

Hey I was just hopeing someone could fully explain this to me I mean I cant do the last part for some reson, Jump Fierce (I think thats it) anyways if someone could explain this combo that would be awsome thanks

[SLICK RICK]

The only two characters that can be stunned with one combo are Remy and Akuma. The combo is: Karakusa, s.fierce xx Abare, dash behind dp+fierce xx sj straight up fierce.

[Jeff1]

I saw somthing like, super, sj. axe kick, land dash mk, super

i cant get the axe kick and the dash mk to connect, any help?

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Jeff1
I saw somthing like, super, sj. axe kick, land dash mk, super

i cant get the axe kick and the dash mk to connect, any help?

Hrm...I've never seen this done with mk, just s.jab and s.strong. However I can tell you that the key is to do the axe kick later than usual. Not too late but later than you would if you were going to do the basic Hayate juggles. This will knock them up high and you will be near the ground allready, giving you more than enough time to dash under and input the normal attack, resetting your opponent leaving them one option, parry. This will stun all characters if it was preceeded by a Karakusa, fierce, and if it is followed up with a dash behind dp+fierce xx sj straight up fierce. But its not a true combo because it can be escaped with parry.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Repulsorgeist:

You're probably doing the Strong DP+P too early. Time it as late as you can.

-------------

Hmm. I wonder if I should bump my topic. BTW Ricky, I've been messing around with some tick-throw setups. Reply in the main Makoto thread if you can (link from Dasrik's sticky-admin post):

twd+Roundhouse (fake) -> ... -> Karakusa


... Fierce (Point-blank only)
... C.Short -> Hayate(Cancel) -> Karakusa (Be sure you've already hit them with C.Short -> Hayate before, just to establish false pattern/precedent.. hmm. 'EFP.')

And then you could just hit Roundhouse (push-kick) to avoid wakeup grabs because of its delay and hitboxes (although she can still get grabbed by kara-throws if you time the roundhouse poorly, or by command throws). Also prevents people from jumping away, which is a plus. Roundhouse is very underrated, I think.


At maximum C.Forward range, tick once, then kara-cancel grab. Unfortunately, this only really seems to work against crouching characters, otherwise they get tagged by the Short, or are missed completely. But I use it against Chun players when necessary... really risky though.


-------------

[Ermacb]

To connect the two supers:

hcb+kick,fierce punch, super, superjump qcb+lk,dash, jab punch cancel into super with fierce punch, dash and dp, superjump and roundhouse kick. Most of the characters should be stun after this.

[erco]

some questions and some things I've found out. first questions.

okay, say I'm rushing down with Makoto and I corner my opponent. Do I keep them in the corner and continue to apply pressure OR do I work myself in behind them after a knockdown and go for karakusa -> fierce xx SAII blah blah blah? Not sure if it's worth the risk but the 50% combo and lots of stun is nice. Also, what joystick input do you do to get the fastest ex axe kick off from the ground? as of right now, I'm doing a near 270 motion from up-forward all the way around to back and hit kick. I've been trying like crazy to Tiger Knee it, but it never seems to come out. Any suggestions?

Oh yeah, here's some random crap like if you jump straight up and whiff a really late normal axe kick (late to a point where the hitting portion doesn't come out) you can almost guarantee yourself a karakusa when you land. also, I'm not sure if anyone listed this setup, but near opponent karakusa -> s.fierce xx EX hayate juggle with towards short, kara-karakusa works surprisingly well.

One last question, how long can you do the dash jab stun infinite?

[Burningfist]

Originally posted by erco
some questions and some things I've found out. first questions.

okay, say I'm rushing down with Makoto and I corner my opponent. Do I keep them in the corner and continue to apply pressure OR do I work myself in behind them after a knockdown and go for karakusa -> fierce xx SAII blah blah blah? Not sure if it's worth the risk but the 50% combo and lots of stun is nice. Also, what joystick input do you do to get the fastest ex axe kick off from the ground? as of right now, I'm doing a near 270 motion from up-forward all the way around to back and hit kick. I've been trying like crazy to Tiger Knee it, but it never seems to come out. Any suggestions?

Oh yeah, here's some random crap like if you jump straight up and whiff a really late normal axe kick (late to a point where the hitting portion doesn't come out) you can almost guarantee yourself a karakusa when you land. also, I'm not sure if anyone listed this setup, but near opponent karakusa -> s.fierce xx EX hayate juggle with towards forward kara-karakusa works surprisingly well.

One last question, how long can you do the dash jab stun infinite?

Working yourself into the corner with makoto is only worth it on a few characters who have alot of ways to be switched up, these people are not shotos. Test...you'll figure it out, I assure you. And yes that setup is kinda old, but still extremely good. As for the axe kick, tigerknee is not really worth it, from what I can remember, its possible, but sometimes you get a backwards jumping mk/fk, which will fuck up your pressure string.

Edit: About the "infinite"...5 is the max jabs you'll ever wanna do, but to be honest setting up this jab crap is so pointless that I wouldnt even use it to humiliate.

[Arlieth Tralare]

By the way, I did some more testing with Makoto's uber-SA2 followup.

Shotos, Makoto, Alex seem to be pretty easy to hit, make sure the Strong Uppercut is actually *late* as possible.

It's Dudley with whom the Strong Uppercut should be done earlier.



I've also done a full revolution on my SA selections- I'm once again, for the first time in at least a year, back to using Makoto's SA 1- and you know what? It's kinda sick countering rush-down Dudleys and Kens with. Not so good against runaways, for which I think SA 3 may be better for.

The biggest problem I've been running into with SA 3 is that it's most effective when you can repeatedly knock people down- but her special moves can't be EX'ed. However, it really, REALLY helps against characters like Ryu and Q. Just make sure that you can kill them within one or two combos before they can gather their wits- It is folly to try activating the super when they're still at 50% or more health.

[DarthSalamander]

What setups do you guys like doing the most after an EX hayate in the corner? Do you prefer a knockdown or reseyting the opponent in the air? I like to reset in the air myself, I think it gives the opponent less time to think and they are less likely to expect it IMO.

[Kamui18]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
By the way, I did some more testing with Makoto's uber-SA2 followup.

Shotos, Makoto, Alex seem to be pretty easy to hit, make sure the Strong Uppercut is actually *late* as possible.

It's Dudley with whom the Strong Uppercut should be done earlier.



I've also done a full revolution on my SA selections- I'm once again, for the first time in at least a year, back to using Makoto's SA 1- and you know what? It's kinda sick countering rush-down Dudleys and Kens with. Not so good against runaways, for which I think SA 3 may be better for.

The biggest problem I've been running into with SA 3 is that it's most effective when you can repeatedly knock people down- but her special moves can't be EX'ed. However, it really, REALLY helps against characters like Ryu and Q. Just make sure that you can kill them within one or two combos before they can gather their wits- It is folly to try activating the super when they're still at 50% or more health.

About that sa2 followup, is it applicable anywhere? Or does it only work when your opponent flies to their corner?

[AdverseSolutions]

Is there any way to set up an exhibition combo where Makoto hits someone with SA I then gets hit with something (I'm thinking the last hit of a fading aegis reflector) after she launches them and then you go combo their asses? Would be pretty.

-Sk!

[Master Chibi]

I appologize for being a bit lazy and not wanting to read the past 11 pages or so, but could someone answer me this one question?

Does any of her dashing punches cancel out into her SAI? If so, which one (LP, MP, FP)?

My typical combo is but s.FPxx dash punch xx SAI. Problem is that sometimes I land it and sometimes I don't, so I just wanted to make sure if it was a fluke or not.

Thanks.

^_^

[DarthSalamander]

You link the super after the special.

[Master Chibi]

Oh. So I don't 'cancel' her dash punch, I merely link it afterwards?

I see. I've got to be quicker then.

:D

[DarthSalamander]

Basically Makato can sneeze on her opponent and link SA1.

[Master Chibi]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's a creative way of putting it.

I take it that within the previous pages of this thread I can found out exactly what does and doesn't link into her SAI then?

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by DarthSalamander
What setups do you guys like doing the most after an EX hayate in the corner? Do you prefer a knockdown or reseyting the opponent in the air? I like to reset in the air myself, I think it gives the opponent less time to think and they are less likely to expect it IMO.
Sup John, I always do the best thing that works on that character. If I can do a strong Hayate I do it. If a jab Hayate works I do that. If s.forward works I do it, and for everyone else I do f.short. If I juggled with a Hayate, I'll proceed with Makoto's sick wake-up games cuz they'll be grounded. If I juggled with a normal, I'll do one of three things: 1) Kara-Karakusa! or dash up Karakusa. 2) Dash up anti-jump move (c.rh, s.fierce, a jumping attack, etc.), if I think they will jump. This is fun because if you guess right and you knock them out of the air, you can go for a grab when they hit the ground unless you think they'll jump again, then smack em' again. Repeat until you think they'll stay on the ground and grab their ass, but of course they can parry any anti-jump moves. 3) If I think they'll reverse my dash in grab or anti-jump move (with a DP or super, etc.), I love to dash up with parry. You will get there right when they get the chance to attack so stick out parry as soon as your dash finishes, then parry whatever they throw out and own them. Hope I helped. Later.

Ricky

[DarthSalamander]

Originally posted by Master Chibi
:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's a creative way of putting it.

I take it that within the previous pages of this thread I can found out exactly what does and doesn't link into her SAI then?

Yeah. Main things to link off of are Hayate, s.strong and c.forward. You should go through the thread because there is a ton of useful info.

OK(hehe, OK :p ): Thanks for the feedback.

[Storming Flower]

excuse the scrubby question but how do you get out of the hayate-hcb+k trap?

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Storming Flower
excuse the scrubby question but how do you get out of the hayate-hcb+k trap?

Its just a tick-throw variation. You can easily jump out of it, or reverse it with a fast move. Move jabs and shorts are fast enough. However, its a guess, because the Makoto player doesn't have to grab. They can act accordingly to what they think you will do. Good luck.

[erco]

I think backdash works too.

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by erco
I think backdash works too.

True, I forgot about that.

[Storming Flower]

ok thx, just started 3s and don't get much time to play it, i have trouble linking fierce into ex hayate or saii after karakashu throw.

[haduken111]

Originally posted by erco
I think backdash works too.

not really :)

[Arlieth Tralare]

KSK used backdash on me all the time after a karakusa clinch. Worked pretty fucking well, if you ask me. :)

Right now, I'm developing the reflex of standing Short -> Jab Hayate after any parry. I tried doing the same thing with Ibuki and her standing Forward -> Raida, but the range is lacking, and Makoto literally kara-cancels through with the Short.

[sven]

if someone backdashes, is it possible to tag them with SAII?

[erco]

pretty sure SAII ain't fast enough.

you can however tag em with another hayate, but that's a crap shoot.

[Monkey]

I have been using Makoto for awhile now, and I believe that I am ready for the more advanced set-ups of her grab. I know the kara-command throw, but not sure when to use it. If anyone can help, it would be great.


-monkey

[DarthSalamander]

You can setup kara-command throw off low strong and her towards+strong move.

[sven]

and far s.short, too - probably the easiest one to do it off of.

[erco]

I will not let this thread die. Makoto is goddamn cool

anyways.

in the corner, if you jump towards and hit air to air with forward, land, whiff s.short (kara) karakusa works, this is if your opponent gets used to seeing dash in karakusa.

Also, meaty s.strong, c.forward, kara-karakusa works too. Chances are though, you'll miss since the guy'll probably jump back, if so, start spamming the c.roundhouses.

Things to not, makoto's s.roundhouse is really damn useful. It makes her hitbox all funny, like, I'm standing right next to a guy, hit roundhouse as he tries to throw, the throw will whiff since she pulls back and he gets tagged with the kick. it also avoids low shorts at certain ranges.

[AneurysmX]

INO's Makoto is fucking INSANE!!

[sven]

I'm having some trouble against a Hugo.
After every Hayate, he'll 360 throw me.
I can't seem to backdash or jump out in time.
Without the Hayate, my offensive game isn't nearly as good.
what can I do?

[Burningfist]

Dodge or tigerknee an ex qcb+k. Mixup is key here, also watch ranges.

[erco]

Originally posted by sven
I'm having some trouble against a Hugo.
After every Hayate, he'll 360 throw me.
I can't seem to backdash or jump out in time.
Without the Hayate, my offensive game isn't nearly as good.
what can I do?

if you connect with the hayate, you get frame advantage and should be able to avoid the 360.

[DeadlyRaveNeo]

Originally posted by sven
I'm having some trouble against a Hugo.
After every Hayate, he'll 360 throw me.
I can't seem to backdash or jump out in time.
Without the Hayate, my offensive game isn't nearly as good.
what can I do?

if you use SA2, and the Hugo guy is a 360 masher, just SA2 right after the QCF+P that you connect (since you have frame advantage if it connects) and kick his ugly mashing face while he's in whiffed throw animation.

[sven]

now that I've got all this info, the Hugo player hasn't been there.
:rolleyes:

thanks, guys.

[Ponta-kun]

Someone brought up Makoto getting hit out of SA I by something after the final hit, easiest would be corner Urien, Urien throws MP reflector, hit with Makoto SA I, the pushback on the final hit will throw her into the reflector.

I would try this but I'm going to sleep now.

Actually, I may have seen it on a video already, I'm tired. Bye.

[Thongboy Bebop]

Well, that or Urien could just throw a jab Reflector over a downed Makoto and she could do SA1 on wakeup (IE: Scrub Reflector Trap #1).

N

[parker]

These questions are probably too scruby (sorry Arlieth!) but I really want to know.

1) The juggle Arlieth mentioned after SAII is xx sj. Axe kick, dp xx sj. fierce. How does it work? I find the short and forward axe kick makes a huge difference. The forward axe kick come out slower, and you land closer to your opponent. But either I don't think it will be close enough to land the dp uppercut.

2) The two regular juggles after SAII (xx sj. axe kick, hayate x2 and xx dash, dp xx sj. fierce or axe kick), the hayate x2 does more damage while dash does more stun. Does anyone know exactly how much more damage the first one does? In other words, which one would you do if you know your opponent will not get stun by the dash one? (for me it seems to be easier to do the dash one once I got the hang of it--plus against Q the sj goes over him so fast that I missed pulling out the axe kick completely.)

3) If you connect the SAII and pushed your opponent into the corner, it becomes very hard to finish the juggle. I don't think the dash cancel one will work (someone correct me if I am wrong,) and the hayates becomes very hard to connect after the axe kick. So is there a better way to do the juggle only for the coners? Maybe sj straight up for the axe kick instead of sj toward?

4) Some kara-karakusa tips? The ones I know are the standing short xx karakusa and deep standing strong and karakusa. The standing short actually comes out completely and you cancel into karakusa, right? It does not work if the short connects. And the standing strong one is a link. If the opponent is just outside the karakusa range, whats the best way to connect it? Is there actually a real kara-karakusa (where the cancelled move does not come out?) And how fast do you have to do it?

[pyrolee]

Originally posted by AneurysmX
INO's Makoto is fucking INSANE!!

Izu's is twice as good.

[erco]

Originally posted by parker
These questions are probably too scruby (sorry Arlieth!) but I really want to know.

1) The juggle Arlieth mentioned after SAII is xx sj. Axe kick, dp xx sj. fierce. How does it work? I find the short and forward axe kick makes a huge difference. The forward axe kick come out slower, and you land closer to your opponent. But either I don't think it will be close enough to land the dp uppercut.

2) The two regular juggles after SAII (xx sj. axe kick, hayate x2 and xx dash, dp xx sj. fierce or axe kick), the hayate x2 does more damage while dash does more stun. Does anyone know exactly how much more damage the first one does? In other words, which one would you do if you know your opponent will not get stun by the dash one? (for me it seems to be easier to do the dash one once I got the hang of it--plus against Q the sj goes over him so fast that I missed pulling out the axe kick completely.)

3) If you connect the SAII and pushed your opponent into the corner, it becomes very hard to finish the juggle. I don't think the dash cancel one will work (someone correct me if I am wrong,) and the hayates becomes very hard to connect after the axe kick. So is there a better way to do the juggle only for the coners? Maybe sj straight up for the axe kick instead of sj toward?

4) Some kara-karakusa tips? The ones I know are the standing short xx karakusa and deep standing strong and karakusa. The standing short actually comes out completely and you cancel into karakusa, right? It does not work if the short connects. And the standing strong one is a link. If the opponent is just outside the karakusa range, whats the best way to connect it? Is there actually a real kara-karakusa (where the cancelled move does not come out?) And how fast do you have to do it?

1. you use either forward or short for that combo, but you have to make sure you get it out fairly early and near the top of the arc of your opponents fall.

2. depends on the opponent. I normally do the stun one simply to put pressure on my opponent to keep away from me, which means free c.roundhouses after ticks. Also, on most of the cast, the stun one will do close enough to full stun that landing a neutral throw almost guarantees dizzy.

3. you can't do any variations of the stun juggle, instead, settle for damage: axe kick, hayate, stand fierce. This way you can follow up with mind game of your choice and is easier to hit than a second hayate.

4. okay, some definitions here. what you described are ticks into karakusa. s.jab, s.short, c.short, c.forward (deep), c.strong (c.strong) all tick into karakusa, and are all links. Kara-karakusa is different from these and from Kara-Throws in general. What happens is the s.short fully comes out, but is immediately cancelled into the karakusa, pulling you forward. you can't make any sort of contact (blocked or hit) on your opponent for the karakusa to connect. it's weird, it's definitely a kara cancel and not a normal cancel or a link. You gotta practice it to get it right.

[Vigorous]

How do you kara-throw with makoto? I've been trying all sorts of ways, but the throw doesnt come out. Help.

[erco]

Originally posted by Vigorous
How do you kara-throw with makoto? I've been trying all sorts of ways, but the throw doesnt come out. Help.

I'm sure there's a better way, but what I do is...wait for it...do it really, really fast. Basically, hit short and immediately swing from forward to back, hit roundhouse. Thing to note, it's a ton easier on Japanese sticks, simply because you have to rotate the stick in a tighter circle.

[Vigorous]

Yea I got the Kara-command grab down.
I'm asking about the kara-regular throw though.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

[erco]

use toward strong. errr, that's what I use, I'm sure you can use toward forward or roundhouse too, towards fierce is probably too slow.

what I do is hit strong with my middle finger and have my index and thumb over jab and short, respectively, then roll my wrist while keeping my fingers stationary. so you hit strong then immediately afterwards you hit command throw.

[magneto's son]

::::bump:::::

we can't let this thread die it is too good makoto for life

hey question i read all the pages but i can't get the second super(saII) in that combo to hit. it should go St.fpxxsaII,dash lp or sj,axe kick then dash lp,then saII againe but i can't get it to hit it just seem to miss completely any advice


hey where can i get makoto avatar

[parker]

Thanks for all the advice, erco. One more question--is there any difference in the different strength karakusa? I thought the only difference is activation time, but today I tried tick karakusa with roundhouse, and it seems so much easier!

[Burningfist]

Just made this for fun...nothing too ground breaking.

http://www.burningfist.com/videos/makoto.rar

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by parker
Thanks for all the advice, erco. One more question--is there any difference in the different strength karakusa? I thought the only difference is activation time, but today I tried tick karakusa with roundhouse, and it seems so much easier!

Short Karakusa has the least range and recovery. RH Karakusa has the most range and recovery.

[Original Geese]

Originally posted by Orochi Kyosuke


Short Karakusa has the least range and recovery. RH Karakusa has the most range and recovery.

I thought the following:

short: most range, fastest, shortest stun
...
rh: least range, slowest, most stun

[Arlieth Tralare]

*blink* Since when the hell did any move have longer range with a weaker attack than a hard one?

Back after a long hiatus. Been REALLY cheaping out with Makoto's SA 1; it makes her Strong punch one of the DEADLIEST weapons in her arsenal.

Ricky, wanna bounce some SA 1 tactics off of each other?

[Original Geese]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
*blink* Since when the hell did any move have longer range with a weaker attack than a hard one?

Back after a long hiatus. Been REALLY cheaping out with Makoto's SA 1; it makes her Strong punch one of the DEADLIEST weapons in her arsenal.

Ricky, wanna bounce some SA 1 tactics off of each other?

stupid idiot, its been like that forever for grabs. Gief's SPD, Alex's PB, etc. etc.

[Daddy]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
*blink* Since when the hell did any move have longer range with a weaker attack than a hard one?


It's been like for for all SF games even CvS2 if I'm not mistaken.

Weak has always have better range than Strong but does less damage (or hit stun in Makoto's case). The difference is quite visible too.

[SLICK RICK]

JEZUS CHRIST PEOPLE!! Check for yourselves! Listen to what I tell you! Fuck how its been before, fuck Gief, fuck Alex, we are talking about Makoto here. Sooooooo as far as Makoto goes, short Karakusa has the least range and has quick recovery. RH Karakusa has the most range and has shitty recovery.

Arlieth, fucking right! I've been playing SA1 hardcore. I'm not too great at the hayate link yet but I'm working on it. I like doing 2 c.jabs xx SA1. Also the fact that if you are in c.strong range you're also in SA1 range is just sick, it will combo from a c.strong 100% of the time. SA1 has decieving range. I'm pretty sure you know all that I know, like s.strong, c.forward, UOH, and hayate all link into SA1. SA1 will also nail an opponent jumping away from a karakusa, if you predict the jump its another anti-jump option. I still don't like the lack of EX meter though. I can't think of anything else right now. Holla back!

Ricky

[Daddy]

No offense, but I just tested it out on the DC but the short version has more range than the Roundhouse version. I tested it serval times already, but I might do it again just to make sure but ATM short = more range

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Daddy
No offense, but I just tested it out on the DC but the short version has more range than the Roundhouse version. I tested it serval times already, but I might do it again just to make sure but ATM short = more range

Sure it does...:rolleyes:

Where's a moderator when you need one?

LMAO@anyone trying to tell me and Arlieth we're wrong.:lol:

[Daddy]

Look, my first repsonse was directed @ Arlieth. He asked which capcom games where weak attacks have more range than stronger ones.. I gave him the answer. No flames (unlike Geese) no childish, stupid :rolleyes: , I mean everyone is wrong once in awhile.

I did test it out on the DC, I didn't assume nothing. Now you're saying I'm wrong, which is fair as I can be wrong, but did you tested it out? If you did could you at least say you did? I took my time to test it and then posted what I tested. I'm not trying to be smart or anyhting but I just (like you) want to find out for sure.

For fun I also tried it with most command throws and weaker = more range seems to apply to most of them.

Lastly, thanks for SA strats, I was thinking of playing around with that too...

[Arlieth Tralare]

Just trap them with a Strong punch -> Karakusa tick, except use the SA 1 another time as they try to jump away. ^_^ Fierce punch is normally used for this, if you don't have a super.

Right now, I've just been setting up for that with an anti-air Jab, dash to the other side... ^_^


--------

Ricky, there is a possibility that they're right. I was thinking this in terms of 3s, but there's a few other games where Jab SPDs have more range (i.e.: Alpha 3.) As much as Geese has made himself a silly jackass in the past with 'combos', I'll have to give this one the benefit of the doubt.

[Daddy]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Ricky, there is a possibility that they're right.

Thanks. I'm a big fan of your Makoto work btw. I've been try to use SA 1 and 3 more, but your thread gave me a big boost in learning Makoto. /suck up.

Right or wrong Ricky (hope you don't mind me using your name) no hard feelings I hope

EDIT: I got Thongboy to check for me and he said Roundhouse has max range.
So I was wrong... damn it! :lol: . Anyways like I said no hard feelings

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Just trap them with a Strong punch -> Karakusa tick, except use the SA 1 another time as they try to jump away. ^_^ Fierce punch is normally used for this, if you don't have a super.

Right now, I've just been setting up for that with an anti-air Jab, dash to the other side... ^_^

--------

Ricky, there is a possibility that they're right. I was thinking this in terms of 3s, but there's a few other games where Jab SPDs have more range (i.e.: Alpha 3.) As much as Geese has made himself a silly jackass in the past with 'combos', I'll have to give this one the benefit of the doubt.

Ok, I just checked to make sure I wasn't full of shit and the RH karakusa clearly has the most range. I am right. Alrlieth, have you checked recently?

I have used that setup you mentioned before, its tight. Anti-air jab, dash behind, SA1. TOO GOOD! I love doing s.jab while they are on the way up beginning their jump, because you can dash behind. So I'll do anti-air/anti-jump s.jab, and repeat dash behind, anti-jump s.jab until I think they will stay grounded and I'll Karakusa. Its cool because you keep changing sides and your opponent is terrified...evil.

Daddy, I did come up with the same results I posted. Though regardess the outcome, its all good. We're all here to learn and share. Well...not everyone...*cough*geese*cough*

EDIT: Daddy, I just noticed your edit, well its confirmed, I haven't gone crazy...yet.:D

Ricky

[[3rd]Wael]

forward+mp hk mk and lk kara works
forward+mp tap forward twice hk and mk kara works
ex hayate in gard only hk kara works.
correct me if i am wrong.

[Original Geese]

Btw, SAI's huge ass weakness is that it is beat by a simple UOH, just like how Chun's SAI is also beat by a UOH.

[Homer Pimpson]

People, short karakusa has the least range, roundhouse has the most. Try ticking with the 2 diffrent strengths, its visually noticeable. SA1 linking is kinda funny, i find it easiest to do after cr strong. For those having a lil trouble linking it after a hayte, the way i do it is no buffer at all. Rite after the hayate(I use strong)connects i do the super motion. Same with cr forward. Makoto is strong >)

[FMJaguar]

Originally posted by Original Geese
Btw, SAI's huge ass weakness is that it is beat by a simple UOH, just like how Chun's SAI is also beat by a UOH.

Almost every Super will get beat by a UOH or any other early normal, exceptions are shin shoryuken,Tanden Riki, and whatever else has a few invulnerablility frames. The UOH itself loses cleanly to the super, you have to have already been doing the UOH to hit, and that doesn't count.

[Daddy]

Originally posted by Original Geese
Btw, SAI's huge ass weakness is that it is beat by a simple UOH, just like how Chun's SAI is also beat by a UOH.

It's not a weakness per say as you'll be comboing it into SA1. The only other time that'll be even considered it on wakeup but doing supers on wakeup is risky anyways.

Also Orochi Kyosuke is right, the lack of EX moves REALLY sucks. I personally need the EX air axe kick. Speaking of which does anyone do this?

Opponent down, you dash towards them then OTG ex axe kick. Works wonders especially if you grab them a few times already. It knocks them down again for more mixups. Does anyone have more (ex) axe kick strats and uses?

[Arlieth Tralare]

Actually, I'm known for doing EX axe kicks- but I'm infamous for screwing them up. :)

Upon further examination, it seems that linking SA I after C.Forward requires slightly faster reflexes than her standing Strong. Just so you guys know. ^^

[halcyonryu]

I basically do the ex axekick whenever I think they will try to throw me, that's the main use for it imo. Like empty jump in and do it, or jump in with an early attack and do it. People like to try to throw you at these points.

[Arlieth Tralare]

Current project: Working on perfecting kara-kara at point blank on rising characters. (Aww, he's too close to do a kara-grab on m-oh SHIT!) Very effective trick.

Proposed new format for this thread: Start your message with (Current Project), showing any new or existing strats that you're working on, so that people could either give or ask for advice on it.



Now, on to other things.

Since I don't have my Dreamcast with me, I'd like someone to figure out the details on connecting Makoto's SA 2 -> Forward Axe Kick -> Uppercut -> j.Fierce combo on every character. Possible notes are that certain characters must be axe-kicked later or earlier than normal, whether the Uppercut should be done at the very last possible moment, whether the opponent will fly the opposite direction of the uppercut (i.e.: Alex), and so forth. Actually, maybe two or three people could work on it so we could figure out discrepancies and rule out human error. ^_^b

[Homer Pimpson]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Current project: Working on perfecting kara-kara at point blank on rising characters. (Aww, he's too close to do a kara-grab on m-oh SHIT!) Very effective trick.



This is very effective. I was setup like that more than once and didnt know wtf to do. No time to jump it seemed like, it all happned so fast lol. Boo@Rickys Mak.

[Gandido]

Hey Arlieth! I got 2nd at the last 3s tourney here. I used mostly Makoto, thanks to your bad influence at SHGL (^_^). One thing though: I tend to be REALLY jumpy with Makoto. Is that necessarily a bad/good thing? And what can I do about runaway genei-jin Yun? Any ideas?

-Gandidoo-oh!-

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by MrSimpson
This is very effective. I was setup like that more than once and didnt know wtf to do. No time to jump it seemed like, it all happned so fast lol. Boo@Rickys Mak.

:lol: Yeah Arlieth, I've been using that for a while now. If I think they'll jump on wake-up I do either kara EX dp or kara EX chop.

[Master Chibi]

Current Project: Trying to not to jump at all with Makoto.

Status: Working very well.

I find that by having her constantly moving (to the best of my strategic abilities) I can have the opponent continously try and guess what I may do next, and thanks for being to sweep an opponent in one of two manners, I can further set other things up otherwise. Any jump ins are either knocked out of the air with a s.MK or parried and waited out as best possible.

I have two friends who think foolish of me to stick with Makato. I'm working on her as best I can to prove them wrong, but it is proving difficult, especially against a seasoned Ryu vet and Alex lover.

[[3rd]Wael]

Taking away her Air game is a good way to train all her dash tricks (if u want to learn them perfectly).But if it's to take them away in a real competition it's silly. Makoto has a VERY GOOD air game that can lead to a lot of her tricks. My advice would be use it A LOT

[Master Chibi]

Well I pull out that qcb+k on that rare occassion I do get into the air, but I know very little of what else she can do in the air.

Do tell me how to better myself though.

[NerenatwaH]

when im in the air i like to j.fp them and then dash up to them and grab or EX karate chop.

[Gandido]

Originally posted by Arlieth Tralare
Makoto's two best things to use against the twins:

-Dashing under dive kicks

-Jump away with Forward kick

What would be the better retaliation option after dashing under a dive kick? A strong hayate for a juggle option maybe? I'm still really not good with this matchup AT ALL. If anyone could give me some pointers, I would really appreciate them.

Ricky or Arlieth: What are the EX Fukiage resets after an Abare? I'm trying to deepen my game with her a little bit, and it's working pretty well. I just need to know about these and how to pull them off, and on who. Thanks :)

EDIT: I can't get the j.fierce to connect after the axe kick -> strong dp -> sj. Any pointers whatsoever? Is the axe kick with short or forward?

And how often do you do normal chops? What's the purpose for it besides being an overhead?

EDIT 2: Current Project: Perfecting distance for kara-karakusa after an air to air j.forward. (Ex. If I jump back and nail him, I know it's dash then kara-karakusa, but if I jump towards him and him towards me and then I hit, it's kara-karakusa, but you need to move slightly).

Progress: Doing really well with it, and it works wonders because usually when people play against Makoto they jump on reaction to dashes, even though you could hit them with c.rh while they do, I find myself more in control with a Karakusa. Besides, you get more damage. I'm still trying to master low short into Hayate cancel. It seems rather fast, and my fingers hurt.

BTW, are there any more setups for the kara command grab? I mean, I know to do it on their wake ups, after low strong and towards + strong, as well as low forward, tick once and then kara grab. I know that karakusa, s.fierce, hayate cancel, kara grab only works on shotos as far as I have seen. But are there any other practical ones that should be taken into account?

Last (whoa, I'm talking a lot), doing Abare on reaction to when people parry s.strong as a meaty OWNS. You make them fall for it once, and when you have another super, they won't dare try and hit you after the parry, which means free command grab.
-Gandido-

[Red from da VI]

Gandido just wondering, do you play 3S at the Timeout in Plaza in PR? I was there in the summer a few times(w/Ken usually).

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by Gandido
Ricky or Arlieth: What are the EX Fukiage resets after an Abare? I'm trying to deepen my game with her a little bit, and it's working pretty well. I just need to know about these and how to pull them off, and on who. Thanks :)
Karakusa->s.fierce XX Abare->late mk axe kick->dash behind jab->kara EX dp, jump cancel straight up fierce, will stun all characters. I have yet to encounter a character it doesn't work on, you'll just, for various funny falling characters, need to ajust the timing on the axe kick, late or earlier than usual (usual being shoto timing).


EDIT: I can't get the j.fierce to connect after the axe kick -> strong dp -> sj. Any pointers whatsoever? Is the axe kick with short or forward?
Sorry, I don't even fuck with that combo anymore. IMO, the damage isn't worth the difficulty, I play to win.


And how often do you do normal chops? What's the purpose for it besides being an overhead?
The only time I do normal chop is when I press 2 punches for EX and only one comes out.:bluu::lol: Seriously though, I NEVER, willingly, do normal chops. They are way too slow, people parry them on reaction, then its good night.


BTW, are there any more setups for the kara command grab? I mean, I know to do it on their wake ups, after low strong and towards + strong, as well as low forward, tick once and then kara grab. I know that karakusa, s.fierce, hayate cancel, kara grab only works on shotos as far as I have seen. But are there any other practical ones that should be taken into account?
Well, these two aren't practical but I throw them out every once in a long while for variety: towards+fierce (3 hits) and s.rh both setup perfect kara-karakusa distance, for shoto's atleast, can't guarantee anything for other characters, I never checked, cuz I'm lazy.:D


Last (whoa, I'm talking a lot), doing Abare on reaction to when people parry s.strong as a meaty OWNS. You make them fall for it once, and when you have another super, they won't dare try and hit you after the parry, which means free command grab.
Very nice trick. I'll throw it out from time to time, another way to land Abare, and a karakusa trick.

[Gandido]

Originally posted by Red from da VI
Gandido just wondering, do you play 3S at the Timeout in Plaza in PR? I was there in the summer a few times(w/Ken usually).

Yeah, it's the only arcade that has 3s there. I wasn't there much in summer. If you played a Makoto player with the yellow color, that wasn't me. I'm blue Makoto :)

Ricky: Yeah, I kinda figured s.rh would set it up. Thanks for all the input too :) And on the combo, damage isn't worth the difficulty. I wish one of you guys could just get over here and beat some of the local scrubs so they get off their high horse. They make ST throws look like nothing :/

[magneto's son]

can someone clear something up for me what does meaty mean
?

[erco]

meaty = throwing out a move so that people get up from a fall into it. So, you sweep, dash up, and hit strong so that they get up from the sweep into the middle of the attacking frames of the strong so they are forced to either block or parry it.

[magneto's son]

thanx alot for clearing that up

[Burningfist]

Originally posted by Orochi Kyosuke

Karakusa->s.fierce XX Abare->late mk axe kick->dash behind jab->kara EX dp, jump cancel straight up fierce, will stun all characters. I have yet to encounter a character it doesn't work on, you'll just, for various funny falling characters, need to ajust the timing on the axe kick, late or earlier than usual (usual being shoto timing).

I've started using this reset alot lately, can you share some more info on it? Like timings for the axe kick against certain characters? Thanks in advance.

[FMJaguar]

I think one problem with makoto is that it's easy to go for too much. It's becoming sort of like magneto with all the resets and the exhibitionism. When you try to get too fancy, you start losing damage and initiative to people that know better. IIRC in a lot of the best matches there was more usage of the EX moves, quick jab short sequences, then maybe one setup into the s.strong, postitioning through the f+normals, the *threat* of traps, then through a single stun or choke the fun begins. I didn't want to kill the thread, just throw a little spin on the strategy.

[Burningfist]

Well said FMJ, personally for a while, I completely forgot how effective her poking games were and I payed for it for a while. But after realizing again the sheer power of Makoto's pokes I realized that poking with her is a must. However, its important to note that being well prepared and knowing the best setups for stun combos and such is VERY important with her, especially for those who play her with SA2. And hell, if I cant fuck with my opponents head during a match by stunning them with a single combo or ticking off a move they didnt realize was tickable what fun is playing Makoto? :)

[Homer Pimpson]

Originally posted by FMJaguar
I think one problem with makoto is that it's easy to go for too much. It's becoming sort of like magneto with all the resets and the exhibitionism. When you try to get too fancy, you start losing damage and initiative to people that know better. IIRC in a lot of the best matches there was more usage of the EX moves, quick jab short sequences, then maybe one setup into the s.strong, postitioning through the f+normals, the *threat* of traps, then through a single stun or choke the fun begins. I didn't want to kill the thread, just throw a little spin on the strategy.


Hmm yeah good point. Ive lost plenty of rounds I should have won but was 2 concerned with landing my abare combo 2 actually PLAY makoto. Also, i think the point you made about losing initiative is very important. I know ive done some foolish things trying 2 position miself for the death combo. Fuck all that though SA1 hardcore >) Dash, poke, super. 2 good!

[parker]

Orochi Kyosuke:

I was trying your ex Fukiage reset combo, but since I never seen it I am not sure how to do it. The dp after the reset, does it hit your opponent while they are still in the air or is it a hit from behind after they land, counting on block confusion? And sequence is dash jab reset, then short cancel into ex dp, right? And on some characters SAII knock them up instead of away so if you sj. cancel, you will fly behind them quick that you cannot wait for a late forward axe kick. Will this combo still work? Thanks in advance.

[SLICK RICK]

Originally posted by parker
Orochi Kyosuke:

I was trying your ex Fukiage reset combo, but since I never seen it I am not sure how to do it. The dp after the reset, does it hit your opponent while they are still in the air or is it a hit from behind after they land, counting on block confusion? And sequence is dash jab reset, then short cancel into ex dp, right? And on some characters SAII knock them up instead of away so if you sj. cancel, you will fly behind them quick that you cannot wait for a late forward axe kick. Will this combo still work? Thanks in advance.

First of all, you said its my reset combo, I don't want to take credit for it, I got it from Arlieth and I don't know where he got it. I just reposted it. Just wanted to clear that up. You pretty much understand it. It hits them from behind when they land and it happens really fast so if they don't expect it they'll get hit, due to blocking the wrong way. Yes its dash behind jab, cancel s.short into EX DP. For those characters that get knocked up like you mentioned, it still works but for them you must do the axe kick hella early (example: Elena).

Ricky

[Master Chibi]

I did extremely well with Makoto today. I won a total of 12 matches with her, a good 8 of them in a row. Half and half at two different locations (all NYC, and most in Chinatown Fair).

I'd like to thank Orochi Kyosuke for that tip on using the EX chop as the opponent is getting up from a knockdown. It did well. My highlight of the day was being tied with Akuma, with the end of the match drawing near, both our life bars being close to death. After knocking me down he chose to fly in with a hurricane kick, to which I responded (or aimed to regardless) with SAI. The timing was too good, and as the 'hurricane kick' aimed to finish its third rotation, he literally landed right into the super. Twas quite a sight, being that he was still in the air and that the super hit him with all 5 hits.

About the one character I had an IMMENSLEY difficult time against was Yun. Constant overhead and otherwise. Any suggestions as to what I can do against him? No fancy combos mind you, I don't have the dexterity for them, yet.

^_^

[Red from da VI]

That's what 3s is all about...

vs a good Yun I'm pretty much screwed w/Makoto(though I find Yang harder), after a missed palm dive(qcf+p), use HP-->qcf+p. Also cross ups & manual grabs after knockdowns. And if you parry anything, MP-->SA1.



Gandido I didn't see a blue Makoto, or at least I don't recall. The best 2 I saw was an Alex and an Akuma. There was also a fairly good Dudley player. But it's almost distracting with the dance machines right behind the 3rd strike machine....to say nothing of the girls. ;)

[Master Chibi]

Pardon my ignorance, but the palm dive would be Yun's move, correct? Is that the diagonally downward move I was addressing?

I don't know the terminology very well ^_^;.

Also, is it CERTAIN that her SAI links after a dash punch? For some reason I get mixed results, is that simply because I don't react fast enough?

[BillyKane]

Originally posted by Master Chibi
Also, is it CERTAIN that her SAI links after a dash punch? For some reason I get mixed results, is that simply because I don't react fast enough?

It is.

[Master Chibi]

I see.

That means I'm not doing it quickly enough, or that I'm pressing the wrong button as I do it. Meaning I'll do her dash punch with say, FP, and then activate the super with her LP sometimes. Does that matter?

[BillyKane]

I don't think it does, personally I always use LP to perform the super and it seems to connect all the time no matter the strength of the Hayate. I'm guessing it's probably just your timing that's a little late sometimes.

[Master Chibi]

Yes, I'd say my timing has to be worked on.

I'm sorry for asking so many questions, but other then her SAI, can she link anything else after a dash punch of varied strength?

[Daly]

Originally posted by Master Chibi
Yes, I'd say my timing has to be worked on.

I'm sorry for asking so many questions, but other then her SAI, can she link anything else after a dash punch of varied strength?

Crouching Mk.

Powerful.

[Arlieth Tralare]

... Hey Daly? You've got him backwards. He wants to link dashpunch into another move.

And unfortunately, aside from SA 1, there's nothing else.

Now, if you're looking for other links into the SA 1, then we could go on for a while. ^_^




btw, the 'reset combos' are garnered from a particular Japanese combo video. I take no credit for them.

[Master Chibi]

By all means, tell me what links into the SAI, I'm all ears.

^_^