Help me beat the bastard and friends

[megafighter]

How do I beat a really good BH/Cable/Cyclops with Cable/X/X?

My Cable is really good, IMO, but I have some trouble finding gaps in BH/Cyc game. If I get a single hit, I ate a 100% and my next character is guardbroken for 50% more. I have little experience fighting BH or his assist.

Which I think even harder to fight is Cable/Cyc/BH. If I lose the Cable vs Cable fight, I usally lose the game. I usually play Cable/Sent or Storm/Cyc. In close, the fight goes even (both have Cyc). From far, he has better control because of BH. This forecs me to attack and take more risks, so I lose pretty often.

Any advice?

edit: Of course my non Cable characters suck (if you dont remember I am the guy always looking for OCV teams). My Sentinel is so so. I can get good positions sometimes but I miss fast fly all the time and have some other execution problems

[afireinside195]

ya i need help with that too... but now that i use storm/cable/capcom-cyke my strat is just to build meter for cable and do as much damage with storm. then punish every assist call ... but someone help us... i got the same problems as megafiiiighter.

[ShakingHands]

cable, capcom, BH

-capcom's AA combined with BH's AAA takes up 1/3 of the screen xx captain sword.
-capcom's AAA is faster than BH's
-captain storm + HOD right before they get knocked back up deals good damage. if you do it too early you only get about 3 hits on HOD
-capcom's AAA takes out demon spam

[BlackHeartKing]

I used to use that team as my #1 team for the longest, and still use it sometimes when bored with other BH teams.
Give me input on how he plays the team and I'll tell you all the counters to it :tup:

[joe doe]

i can't see how can black/cable/cyc be such a pain as you guys describe. well,ok to beat that team you need to f*** cyclops. since you have cable run from black not towards him cause you know cyc is coming the only time you should get close to black is to trick him in to callin cyc. and kill cyc with cable and his entire game is over. :badboy:

[ShakingHands]

^^^ I see you have never played a good BH Cable Cyc team

[KrYpToN]

I hate that team..

[HyperslasherZ]

with that opponent, i usually use storm,cable,capcom (in order). first, build meters with storm, then safely tag with cable. punish his cyke with ahvb+capcom AAA. if you lose your cable, you still have storm. she's a runaway, with a little rushdown. abuse hailstorm, when needed. also, use capcom AAA against BH. maybe these tips will help.

[KrYpToN]

Its kinda hard to tag in Cable when you're playing against that team.

[megafighter]

hmmm, I don't know very well how to describe it. Runaway with storm is asking for Inferno/HoD... In fact, if I do a sj HP and he is not on the same level I eat Inf , HoD as well (if I am not in the corner he does just Inferno or DHCs to MOB, sometimes for the kill).

If he calls Cyc he covers it with sj HK (if I manage to avoid Cyc somehow and sj with him he just blocks), sometimes doing air dash back and faling forward with anothr HK followed by some weak attacks , trying to confuse my blocking (if he crosses befor the demons blocking it is almost random). He evades my Cyc really well.

If I got hit by a single demon, my Cable is dead, half of my Sentinel si gone and he has Cable on point (its usually ggpo).

His Cable gives me problems because of the extra control given by BH assist. If I try to build meter by far he usually builds more. Inclose we both have Cyc AAA.

He is really good at punishing assists. A trick that with he got me sometimes is to call Cyc (I have 2 or less bars), then if I call anything to punish it, he already jumped back and goes straight to AHVBs, as soon as he sees the frames for the assist. So I can only have some success by calling assists at random times and sjing before they appear on screen, so I can cover them with a grenade, if necessary.

I wouldn't know how to tag in safely as well... Against BH, I may eat demons, infinite to build meter (infinite is not useless by all means) huge carzy combo ending in Cable tag in , 150% damage using all that meter. If against Cable lk mk hk AHVBs.

And it is hard to keep him grounded when I get some control because of the CAHVB threat. BH seems solid and makes one of the best possible cables to fight against...

[megafighter]

i can't see how can black/cable/cyc be such a pain as you guys describe. well,ok to beat that team you need to f*** cyclops. since you have cable run from black not towards him cause you know cyc is coming the only time you should get close to black is to trick him in to callin cyc. and kill cyc with cable and his entire game is over. :badboy:

BH never calls Cyc if he can't cover it (unless its on purpose, to make Cable burn his only bar and lose control)

[BlackHeartKing]

i can't see how can black/cable/cyc be such a pain as you guys describe. well,ok to beat that team you need to f*** cyclops. since you have cable run from black not towards him cause you know cyc is coming the only time you should get close to black is to trick him in to callin cyc. and kill cyc with cable and his entire game is over. :badboy:

naw man, you of all people should know it can be dangerous due to the block stun and ability to cancel all of BHs standing attacks into sj.xxdash attacks.

[Dasrik]

Try tigerknee viper beam when he's near the ground, and wavedash under him when he super jumps.

[megafighter]

hmmm... It is hard to do surprise AHVBs. He usually falls pressing short (or is it jab?) against my Cable, really close, and following demons (even if I can cover myself against demons with Sent Y I have no room for AHVB, too close).

Wavedash really helps me, but often there's not enough room to it as well. If I block Cyc, he is in front of me preventing the wavedash while BH goes up and throws demons to cover him. If I find a space by calling assist or dodging Cyc, however, usually wavedash helps me either to get some space or to try a crossup when he is falling.

Even when this works, I gotta face a full Cable/Cyc later... What really bothers me is that I cannot get control against BH so, even in my best games, I still build much less meter, which means that I'll have a weak Cable/Sent/Cyc against a full Cable/Cyc. If I die (sometimes even to chip), Sentinel gets guardbroken and I lose the advantage. If I use Storm instead of Sent, I do better as long as I win the Cable vs BH fight, which does not happen so often...

Against Storm/Mag/Sentinel, I usually control space, waiting for a mistake. Against Bh/Cable/Cyc, I can't control space, so I can't force mistakes. I believe this is my main problem against this team...

[BlackHeartKing]

well I'd say your best bet against him would be MSP but since I don't think you use Mags I'm gonna say go with team santhrax or Storm/Cab/commando in that order. Your would have to play defensive and build bar with storm. If you think he's going to send out cyc, jump back and send out commando so that you're hitting cyc right as he's coming out. Try to only use your assist when he uses his or you'll be at the disadvantage. If he's in the sj area and heading your way, send out commando so that he has to block it.

If his BH has to block the commando assist, take the opportunity to follow him with attacks to keep him blocking as long as possible while you build bar and hopefully score a combo...or at least until cyclops gets off the screen.

If he doesn't have to block the commando assist, do a number of things depending on his situation:
-If he's on the ground, whirlwind hailstorm if you have the bar to punish the assist. Or you can attempt to rush him down while watching out for infernosXXwhatever
-If he is in the air from a sj. and hasn't dashed yet be careful that he doesn't sneak in a dash to whatever to counter your punishing of the assist.
-If he's in the air from a sj. and HAS dashed go according to which way he's dashing. If it's forward you should use the vertical shielf from commando to get under him. If it's back than build bar or go for chip.

Basically this match will require you to anticipate when cyc is coming out and to be careful not get caught in some stupid attack, just take the chip when it comes damnit, cuz this means his cable will have one less bar. Unless you're mad fast with the rushdown this will be an incredibly ugly and spam filled match lol

[Dasrik]

No, I meant tigerkneed regular viper beams. They cut off his angles and take up a lot of space, and BH can't do jack shit about it other than superjump.

Try jumping over Cyclops.

[megafighter]

I don't think the TK regular Vbs will be that good because he always falls over me, but thanks for the option. It is something that I did not have in mind, and if I can wavedash to the other side this will help me keeping him in the ground a little more.

BlackheartKing's tactics for Storm are really nice. I think it all comes to mind games after all (whoever is able to bait the opponent's assist to come and avoid having to block it will get a momentaneous advantage).I will try starting with her (I usually place her second to fight Cable). He does not waste meters for chipping tough.


I still would like to know how I should play Cable on this match tough. Against BH, I noticed that I can get some control if I manage to force him to block an assist (like with your storm tactic, when he is coming down on me). If all goes right, I can TK grenade or something after it and maybe try a little Cable offense (but if his Cyc hits I am gone).

And against a full Cable/Cyc/BH it is really hard to protect my assist wisely, or even gain good meter without taking too many risks.

Thanks for the help, guys. This is probably the best character specific forum on srk (most are all about combos)

[megafighter]

Try jumping over Cyclops.

Forgot to address that. Regular jump forward seems very risky. I may even eat random Gb into huge combos if I cant avoid Cyc. Sj seems better. As long as I sj almost at the same time, I get in a good position for a cross up or blocked HP, grenade (in lucky times HP, AHVB).

I just thought that Cable had kind of a battleplan to get an huge advantage against BH. Many theory fighter players swear this is always easy cake for Cable. But then again they don't play Marvel :)

[Higher-Jin]

no one can random guard break you they only do it after they bait you into jumping.

besides the only one that can truly do that is cable, try taking the hit next time you'll eat a jab and ... nothing else.

also learn how to guard cancel blackheart's infernoxxx h o d

basically just push block as soon as the ice corridor opens up and when then hold up foward you should jump out and be able to fry him.

of course that doesn't work if he uses inferno xxx judgement day but that isn't important.

if he ever hits you with a heart of darkness outside of the corner, ahvb as soon as you get up, you should be able to hit him no matter what.

if he's smarter than that then yea use viper beams, you'll cut through demons,

always super jump and shoot him in the face when he super jumps.

i doubt bh can really pin you down so it shouldn't be THAT hard, now if it's a smart bh that's a totally different story.

[BlackHeartKing]

Forgot to address that. Regular jump forward seems very risky. I may even eat random Gb into huge combos if I cant avoid Cyc. Sj seems better. As long as I sj almost at the same time, I get in a good position for a cross up or blocked HP, grenade (in lucky times HP, AHVB).

I just thought that Cable had kind of a battleplan to get an huge advantage against BH. Many theory fighter players swear this is always easy cake for Cable. But then again they don't play Marvel :)

Regular jumping forward isn't as risky as you make it sound. If you're willing to get hit you really can't get GB'd or combo'd badly at that height. If he had commando it'd be a different story. You should be able to pressure him into using his assist b4 you have to use yours with storm. And if he's not wasting meter with BH there's no reason for you to lose the chip war.

Okay, now for cable strategy against BH...
This is actually hard for me b/c I personally use BH as my cable killer. So instead of just giving you strats with Cable I'll tell you what I've learned to punish of Cables moves.

You're best bet with cable is to beam him every time you have him blocking. BUT, never and I mean NEVER do a HP TK beam. BH's sj is fast and I often get over those to where cable is completely vulnerable to a RH to whatever.

The grenades are best used when you have a ground controlling assist like storm's or sent's and you've gotten to the sj height b4 him. At this point you'd sj. HP and throw the appropriate grenade, according to where he is on the screen, and then beam on your way down (again watching out that there's no gap for him to sj over the beam).

Do not sj HP unless you're ground assist is there or you might catch an inferno. And if he's already above you, just jump back and call commando to make him block in which case you do your beam to chip. (AGAIN watching out that he can't sj. over the beam)

If you have him on the ground, try dashing c.lk, even if you know he's going to block it. If you just do one c.lk and block he might try to catch you with cyclops in which case you'd call commando at the right time as I said with storm. And proceed to chip or punish the assist according to whether or not BH got hit too.

Simply put, you're more likely to be damaging his assist rather than his main character with cable. But that can be a good thing b/c if you damage his assist enough he'll be more reluctant to call them out and you'll have the clear advantage.
Hope that helps.

[megafighter]

no one can random guard break you they only do it after they bait you into jumping.

besides the only one that can truly do that is cable, try taking the hit next time you'll eat a jab and ... nothing else.

also learn how to guard cancel blackheart's infernoxxx h o d

basically just push block as soon as the ice corridor opens up and when then hold up foward you should jump out and be able to fry him.

of course that doesn't work if he uses inferno xxx judgement day but that isn't important.

if he ever hits you with a heart of darkness outside of the corner, ahvb as soon as you get up, you should be able to hit him no matter what.

if he's smarter than that then yea use viper beams, you'll cut through demons,

always super jump and shoot him in the face when he super jumps.

i doubt bh can really pin you down so it shouldn't be THAT hard, now if it's a smart bh that's a totally different story.

Random GB is you block Cyc, gets hit by demon, 150%, or you block demon, gets hit by Cyc, 150% or anything like that. The point is I can't really tell because I am jumping while my opponent is sjing when this happens. I am sure he does not even plan it specifically, but takes advantage when and if it happens. Id rather not take this risk.

And many characters can do midmatch GBs (not only Cable), but this would be getting out of the point here.

I know about all the HoD stuff, but he rarely uses it (tag in to Cable 100% combo is much better).

The regular viper beam is not very good because he is always coming from above. At sj level, it is less risky to do HPs (if I miss a vb he can Inf, HoD, DHC me, or maybe even that combo with Inferno, Cyclops, HK demons and tag in).

I appreciate the help, but, as far as I can tell, my opponent IS smart. And I know all the newbie stuff. My problem is really more about the overall stratgey of the match. I must kill BH and I must kill him fast, or else the match gets really hard, with his full Cable against my damaged one :(

[megafighter]

Regular jumping forward isn't as risky as you make it sound. If you're willing to get hit you really can't get GB'd or combo'd badly at that height. If he had commando it'd be a different story. You should be able to pressure him into using his assist b4 you have to use yours with storm. And if he's not wasting meter with BH there's no reason for you to lose the chip war.

Okay, now for cable strategy against BH...
This is actually hard for me b/c I personally use BH as my cable killer. So instead of just giving you strats with Cable I'll tell you what I've learned to punish of Cables moves.

You're best bet with cable is to beam him every time you have him blocking. BUT, never and I mean NEVER do a HP TK beam. BH's sj is fast and I often get over those to where cable is completely vulnerable to a RH to whatever.

The grenades are best used when you have a ground controlling assist like storm's or sent's and you've gotten to the sj height b4 him. At this point you'd sj. HP and throw the appropriate grenade, according to where he is on the screen, and then beam on your way down (again watching out that there's no gap for him to sj over the beam).

Do not sj HP unless you're ground assist is there or you might catch an inferno. And if he's already above you, just jump back and call commando to make him block in which case you do your beam to chip. (AGAIN watching out that he can't sj. over the beam)

If you have him on the ground, try dashing c.lk, even if you know he's going to block it. If you just do one c.lk and block he might try to catch you with cyclops in which case you'd call commando at the right time as I said with storm. And proceed to chip or punish the assist according to whether or not BH got hit too.

Simply put, you're more likely to be damaging his assist rather than his main character with cable. But that can be a good thing b/c if you damage his assist enough he'll be more reluctant to call them out and you'll have the clear advantage.
Hope that helps.

As I said to Higher-Jin, I am really hurt sometimes when I eat a demon or Cyc while jumping forward.

I think some of your tips wil really help me tough. Calling sent and sjing HP should be relatively safe (if he stays on the ground, Sent will cover me, if he sjs, HP will make him block). In theory, he may catch up on that fast and start countering my Sent with Cyc, but it is another weapon to me and at full screen it should be almost foolproof :)

How often does cable's c.LK beats BH's tail? I use it only when I can cross him from below, since I am afraid of eating the tail and huge big combo afterwards...

So, provided my opponent knows what he is doing, this really should not be too easy of a fight for me, right?

[joe doe]

litsen megafighter if you play team scrub why in any reason you are having a problem with black,cable,cyc. Just turtle the bastard and be extremly patient at some point he'll realize that black isn't doing enough damage and bring out his cable before time and give you the fight. Be smarter not more tallented, that's what i always say. Also don't play team msp against this team b/c you won't get near his black. Here is a tip with cable, well a couple of tips; 1) learn to push-block and immediate TKAHVb while you are caught in infernoXXheart of darkness cause no matter how many times i say it people don't litsen, DO NOT DO ANY INFERNOXXHEARTOFDARKNESS when fighting against cable! 2) learn to do a TKAHVB right after you land from an heartofdarkness
super, remember black. does that small dash after he land from the super. 3) Learn scrub tactics, here is an ex., with cable on point call capcom super jump shotXXgranade, can keep an blackheart grounded but be very careful he doesn't catch you with an infernoXXHOD while doing it. Unless you have three bars of super and you want him to catch you so you can nail him after he gets you with the super. 4) Against black try using your assisst morethan you would with any other character, why? well black needs assisst to ove around and punish people, so you have to let your assisst do the damage and keep blocking until you see an opening to punish either black's assisst or black itself.

Hope that helps! :tup:

[myleftshoe]

1) learn to push-block and immediate TKAHVb while you are caught in infernoXXheart of darkness cause no matter how many times i say it people don't litsen, DO NOT DO ANY INFERNOXXHEARTOFDARKNESS when fighting against cable! 2) learn to do a TKAHVB right after you land from an heartofdarkness
super, remember black. does that small dash after he land from the super.


1: I think mega fighter said that his opponent NEVER does HOD unless it connects. Plus i think BH players make sure they have an assist (like doom) pinning their opponent making it unescapable. Pretty much anyone can jump out and gaurd break BH not just Cable.

2: I always thought that BH could block after that by holding up/back, or wiggling down and up on the stick. I've done it plenty times. :rolleyes:

[ShakingHands]

you wiggle the stick after HOD while he is liquid dashing and he stops his dash to block?

[joe doe]

Well Myleftshoe, First of all i have never seen anyone do an inferno and wait if it connects to do a HOD cause if you wait till it hits it wont give you time to connect HOD :rolleyes: . Second of all The Wiggling up and down the stick to stop the AUTOMATIC motion that black does after a super doesn't work, you say you done it Plenty of times, well i'd like to see it to believe it :wow: . By The Way, i thought he was talking about black/cyclops not black/doom if that is the case my bad! But with black/doom all you guys have to do is try to be as mobile as you can, don't get trapped in conners, and call you're assisst earlier than you would against other char. remember once doom comes out most assisst eat the rocks.

[Dasrik]

There are two ways to superjump cancel BH's forced dash.

1. Down-upback at the exact right time. It's doable, but hard.

2. Hold up-back. You get up faster, but quick tigerknees still shoot you.

[megafighter]

Well Myleftshoe, First of all i have never seen anyone do an inferno and wait if it connects to do a HOD cause if you wait till it hits it wont give you time to connect HOD :rolleyes:

Yeah, but he won't do HoD at all against Cable , unless I expose myself (the tactic you suggested , call commando, sj grenade, is in fact a perfect opportunity fo him to Inferno/HoD/DhC if Commando misses).

He starts combos with either a sjump in, ground lk, demons or Cyclops. Any of them can lead to the traditional 150% combo on the end.

Your other point is that my opponent will realize that he is not doing enough damage, then he will bring cable and give me the fight. I really can't follow this. I am not doing enough damage either, but he is the one building bars. At worst, if he is stuck with 5 bars, he can make me block cyclops and cover it with a special for chip damage.

I appreciate your help but, again, I know all these basics you're talking about. It is not that easy to take Blackheart out when he plays well. Other players here seems to agree, and I still did not find any tips here that would make this battle a "walk in the park".

[GGG]

Nice thread this one is. Peeps on my scence are having trouble with BH scrubbies too(cept top players of course). Some pros even play BH when they see BH. So this topic is very much relevant to me.

Just want to clarify a few things:

What is the 100% tag in combo for BH. That one might come in good use in the future :)

Joe doe; you said learn to push block and immediately tk AHVB. But isn't it normal jump AHVB after you guard cancel without even touching the ground after the InfernoXXHoD?

Anywayz, I don't think BH is that hard to get caught off guard. If that player is smart and not spamming demons nor rushing I don't see why he will be building meter. If he tries to make you block Cyke and follow up to chip then use your own Cyke, jump backwards and AHVB.

If you play MSP square jumping is essential. EM Disruptors are good to stuff him in the air. Also wait for him to be reckless on the deomns then wavedash, sj up and lk, which should beat his lp if he's expecting it at all(unlikely). Once you get that one hit with Magz snapback straightaway.

That's all for now. Btw, anyone know a good guard cancelling thread around here?

[megafighter]

Counter calling assist is not possible since BH sjs to cover it, while Cable sis still in blockstun..

My most important improvement lately is knowing when to use grenades in this fight. Proper placed grenades when you sj with BH (after a blocked sj HP) or just a little after, are safe and regain some control of the match.

I am not so sure of the 100% combo, because I don't do it, I just have it done to me. I mean, you can do it with anything that ends in demons, tag in Cable, AHVBs (easier would be infinite,tag in AHVBs).
But my opponente also does something like d.lk x 2, cyclops, inferno, cyclops hits again, demon, tag in ahvb, and variatiosn of it.
I think it dependes if you need more bars (your opponent will get some too) or not. If you need it, throw lots of demons and bring a full Cable in. If not, bring Cable asap and kill with AHVBs and go for a GB afterwards.
If this is too confusing, I'll correct it later. I spent too much time with no sleep this weekend

[megafighter]

about tk ahvb vs jump ahvb, I think it can work in both ways, but tk is faster, if you're on the ground of course

[joe doe]

Megafighter, well im sorry but i guess i need to see what you are doing wrong for me to gie you any advice cause i never had a problem playing with or against black. i guess that all i can tell you is to keep playing the guy and analyse your game every time he beats you, pin-point the moves that he does the most against you and try diferent tactics and see what works and what dosen't. I've encountered games in which everything i did didn't work so i would step back and just watch the guy play and get a feel of his style, then play him and i would usually win. That is just what i do when i loose, you may beat me a couple of times but ill get you, then you wont be able to beat me again.

By the way the motion cancel of black, i knew it can be done but it is not quick enough a quick tiger knee can catch black before you can cancel the motion so it doesn't work in my book!

[myleftshoe]

Well Myleftshoe, First of all i have never seen anyone do an inferno and wait if it connects to do a HOD cause if you wait till it hits it wont give you time to connect HOD :rolleyes: .



I meant infernoXX HOD ONLY if it's within a combo, like demons or cyclops. Moron.

[joe doe]

myleftshoe i bet you are the scrubiest player out there. you must be one of those guys who talks so much B.S. but when is time to step into the plate you don't sum up to the B.S. you just talked. So litsen kid why don't you let the actual players do the talking and just watch and maybe you may learn something. MORON! :tdown:

[GGG]

about tk ahvb vs jump ahvb, I think it can work in both ways, but tk is faster, if you're on the ground of course

If you're talking about my comment about after the guard cancel. I mean you have to jump out so might as well AHVB straightaway without landing.

Anyway joe is right, it's hard to help you like that. Maybe vids would help. But you talk like your opponent is very good so we can't help you much.

[megafighter]

Thanks, Joe Doe and GGG. I am doing much better now. It is all about being smarter after all. Maybe Blackheart is not a very easy fight for Cable. Maybe my opponent is just very good and I am not at the same level, and this even things out. We're doing pretty even lately. I have a good battleplan, I think, and whoever does/is forced to make the first mistake usually loses.

Thanks to everybody who helped so far

[GGG]

Well good on you mate. Well BH and Cable are two of the most irritating chars. to fight for me. So it's good to reply one with the other to get in your opponents face :)

[BlackHeartKing]

Thanks, Joe Doe and GGG. I am doing much better now. It is all about being smarter after all. Maybe Blackheart is not a very easy fight for Cable. Maybe my opponent is just very good and I am not at the same level, and this even things out. We're doing pretty even lately. I have a good battleplan, I think, and whoever does/is forced to make the first mistake usually loses.

Thanks to everybody who helped so far

omg finals of hell are over!! :party:
Glad to hear you are doing better against him. I'm wondering if you have learned to counter his assist just as it's coming in yet? And if you have, have you learned to keep him pinned down while punishing his assist?

[megafighter]

omg finals of hell are over!! :party:
Glad to hear you are doing better against him. I'm wondering if you have learned to counter his assist just as it's coming in yet? And if you have, have you learned to keep him pinned down while punishing his assist?

I am not so sure if I follow you. I mean, if he makes a mistake and calls Cyclops when I am jumping back or at any time I don't have to block, then I AHVB as soon as possible and, in this case, I kill the assist resetting AHVbs and BH cannot protect it.
But this is rare. He is very careful with his assist calling. All in all, I think that now I know how this fight goes. The difference between winning and losing is the differenec between making mistakes or forcing them, mind games and execution.

If you're talking about something else (maybe something I have no idea of) please post your thoughts. Thanks for your help.