50/50 Mix-Ups!

[popoblo]

I'm kind of bored right now, so I figure I'll make a list of the *true* 50/50 mix-ups in cvs2. If you have any additions, comments, or improvements on my list, post them up by all means. Hopefully this will give people a list of what to look out for/abuse/etc. These are obviously not mine, and they're mostly a mix of what Buktooth has posted in other threads from seeing Japanese players. I say *true* 50/50 mixups because you can just jump away with certain ones, but not these.

Dhalsim- This is more of an option select, but you do a Meaty Short Slide slightly outside of point blank range, then press back + Fierce. One of three things will happen. A) Tech Hit, B) Fierce throw, or C) Counter-Hit Standing Fierce (2-hits), then buffer into super.

E. Honda- Meaty Close Standing Jab, then either A) RC 360 or B) Crouching Fierce/Roundhouse.

Iori- Meaty Close Standing Jab, then either A) Scum Gale or B) Low Shorts into Rekkas.

Rock- Meaty Close Standing Short, then either A) 360 grab or B) Crouching Roundhouse.

Rolento- Not as guaranteed as the others, but get close to your opponent and do A) Fierce Throw or B) Counter-Hit Standing Jab, Crouching Forward into Patriot Circles.

Todo- Blocked Crouching Jab, then either A) RC Grab or B) Crouching Roundhouse.

Yamazaki- Meaty Crouching Forward, then either A) Jab Command Grab or B) Another Crouching Forward OR Crouching Jab, Sand, Whip.

Good Times! Now learn how to RC and piss off your opponent.

peace

[vasAZNion13]

Maki: any 720 setup(i.e. s.short[tick], run/stop, early small jump fierce, etc,etc) 1)720 , 2) tked 720(air).

:tup: maki owns.

tked 720 is usually a little TOO advance for some people.

[DooM]

rolento throwing? his fucking crossup is already a 50/50 mixup, sheesh

[vasAZNion13]

rolento- if you do a kick throw, you can do 1)walk foward a bit/scouterhop or 2)i think just scouter hop

doesn't really work well cuz if they delay recover or safe fall, the mixup fails.

[Ouroborus]

yamazaki: roll super

[vasAZNion13]

yamazaki: roll super

holy shit, you win the thread :tup:

[rsigley]

it's more like a 33/33/34 (since most peopel tend to throw i'll give that a 34)

33% - throw
33% - combo if they try to tech
34% - dash back, combo if they try to throw you

good games yesterday, wish i knew you guys were coming earlier we coulda played at my house or something but i start work at like 6am and i live really far away so woulda been impossible

edit:

here's a 50/50 mixup i use with kyo

if i ever nail the qcf + p move after the 2nd one i either a) reset with crouching lk into lp mp more qcf+p moves [or lk lk upkick thingy] or if i think they'll block b) small jump overhead or maybe throw if they're just sitting there, then you can goto his wake up games

kidna lame but it works nicely sometimes

[Mickey D']

Rock
Rock should be like a 25% yo.

Close s.lk (blocked) into

- 360 grab
- Rage run shift
- qcb lk
- low counter

Condition them to block and yur home free. And when you start hitting with the Shinku Nage, they're gonna mostly wake up jumping....so s.hk that shit

Honda

I say that Honda's shouldn't be a c.hp/hk

I think honda's safewst 50/50 mix up would be:

s.lp (blocked) into

- RC 360 grab
- RC slaps

Kyo

qcf lp x2 rekka, k (ends rekka) (Hits)

- Jump over (crosses over) land, c.lk, c.mp into whatever (hits low)
- Jumping lk (crosses over) land into combo (hits high)

[kcxj]

good games yesterday, wish i knew you guys were coming earlier we coulda played at my house or something but i start work at like 6am and i live really far away so woulda been impossible
Good games Sigley. The right speaker on the CvS2 machine actually worked for the first time. :wow: Nobody else in NJ plays CvS2 though? I want to have more 4 man tournies where Sigley's sister is the next best player after Sigley himself...

I deleted my earlier post because I realized it isn't about whether the opponent can jump away from Honda's sweep or not. The purpose of doing the sweep in the first place is to guess that the opponent is going to try and throw you (for fear of the RC grab). You can also do s.HP after s.LP if you want to guess that the opponent is going to jump away (kinda pointless though, since most people know it's not smart to jump from Honda already).

Rock's setup is more like a three way guess rather than 50/50 because both 360 and d.LK, link sweep lose to a shoryuken. You need to put the teleport move in there as well to make it a total guessing game.

Yamazaki, Gief, and any of the other characters with RCable command grabs appear to be the only characters in the game with true 50/50 mixups. Yamazaki's 50/50 not being safe because he needs to guess with punishable supers.

Although not even close to being a true guessing game obviously, a three-way mixup I do with Mr. Sagat is...

-dp+HP, roll, super jump forward... (cross-up j.LK, s.LP, s.LP, tiger uppercut) OR (land d.LK, s.LP, tiger uppercut) OR (throw)

[MAGUS1234]

All of A-groove players, activate is 50/50, for a button tapping!no skill.....shit is so stupid

[(THE) Geese]

-dp+HP, roll, super jump forward... (cross-up j.LK, s.LP, s.LP, tiger uppercut) OR (land d.LK, s.LP, tiger uppercut) OR (throw)

People u play can't see a Sagat j. short coming?

[kcxj]

Yes, you're right. The j.LK is easy to see coming actually, and you run the risk of either being shot or blown up. Therefore, the best thing you really want to do after a knockdown uppercut is to jump away to the other side of the screen.

[(THE) Geese]

Yes, you're right. The j.LK is easy to see coming actually, and you run the risk of either being shot or blown up. Therefore, the best thing you really want to do after a knockdown uppercut is to jump away to the other side of the screen.

No u dumb douche, the best thing to do is use ur brain and think of a viable way to do damage.

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

People u play can't see a Sagat j. short coming?

Probably the same scrubs like Shiro and Ino who get hit with Makoto's high/low mixups. They don't seem to see the j lk.

[(THE) Geese]

Probably the same scrubs like Shiro and Ino who get hit with Makoto's high/low Vega mixups. They don't seem to see the j lk.

wtf are u talking about man? Mak's high low games are actually mixups that are pretty hard to block right. A normal jumping short from Sagat is not a fucking mixup. Even street kids from my area can see that shit coming and block.

I haven't even mentioned the fact that this "mixup" gets owned teh moment the guy just delay getup or techroll. So...no.

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

wtf are u talking about man? Mak's high low games are actually mixups that are pretty hard to block right. A normal jumping short from Sagat is not a fucking mixup.

If you throw out the lk, it hits high. If not, you might catch them blocking high and hit low. How is that not a mixup?

[(THE) Geese]

If you throw out the lk, it hits high. If not, you might catch them blocking high and hit low. How is that not a mixup?

Ok, so now SF has gotten to the point where crossing up with a sj is a mixup???

Jumpin mixups are shit like Blanka's low jump, c. short, s. jab super. Or Vega's low jump, c. short, s. jab Red Impact. But sj crossup short? Lol.. no.

And what i said about delayed getup or quick stand...if u use either of those 2, this mixup dies.

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

Ok a Sagat empty jump isn't a mixup but a Vega or Blanka empty jump is. I get it now.

[vasAZNion13]

(the)geese: i'm not sure what you're trying to get at with your examples. if you do small jump/empty jump mixup with blanka/vega, and they DP you, that mixup dies. so why hate on the sagat mixup? it doesn't make any sense.

EDIT: nvm, i expanded on the sagat's j.short mixup theory to clarify to (the) geese that it's a mixup, but it seemed unnecessary.

[(THE) Geese]

Guys...there is a huge difference between Blanka and Vega low jump mixup and Sagat's SUPERJUMP short mixup. First of all, Blanka and Vega have some of the best (if not THE best) low jump attacks in the game (low jump rh). They use those attacks frequently and with relative safety. Their jumpins are hard to anticipate, hard to react to, and safe to throw out, relatively. Now, we get to SUPERJUMP short from Sagat. Superjump-ins aren't hard to anticipate. They aren't hard to react to. And you can't throw them out for the hell of it. Totally different things. I don't even know why someone would try to compare the two.

[MAGUS1234]

it's the timing of the j.lk that makes it a mixup, as you rise you have a couple frames to tell if it crosses up,hits high or hits low, and it's usually free, thus making it Sagats best mixup,usually this is from a tiger uppercut with a run groove, otherwise his mixup is stale

[(THE) Geese]

it's the timing of the j.lk that makes it a mixup, as you rise you have a couple frames to tell if it crosses up,hits high or hits low, and it's usually free, thus making it Sagats best mixup,usually this is from a tiger uppercut with a run groove, otherwise his mixup is stale

All i gotta say is that if it was such a good mixup, I woulda seen it by now in the 10's of top-level cvs2 matches I've watched from the US and Japan. And I haven't. Point out vids that display this incredible "frame specific" mixup and I'll bow out.

[vasAZNion13]

(the)geesE: sagat's j.short itself is not a mixup. it's what you can vary it with. i really didn't want to type out more than i needed, but it seems like you dont' understand at all.

from the setup kcxj posted:

you can do stuff such as
1)regular jump/super jump to vary the crossup
2)regular/super empty jump low short
3)early j.short, land throw
4)deep j.short, combo

if they safe fall, that means they are willing to take the risk to eat super or normal xx super.

if they delay getup, they avoid the mixup, but a mixup is a mixup. they are still knocked down, so it's not like they did much to avoid the mixup.

as for the vega/blanka stuff, it's good, but i dont' see it happen as often as the sagat mixup, plus it's not like it's hard to avoid that mixup anyways. if they get off the ground, then DP, at worst you'll eat a small jump roundhouse. mixup failed...but the risk/reward factor is different for this mixup so i dont' really want to get into much detail on comparing sagat vs blanka/vega as well.

i'm still slightly confused as to what you're trying to get at specifically. you just randomly seem to point out that it's not hard to see a superjump short coming. and you see to have something against kcxj as well.

No u dumb douche, the best thing to do is use ur brain and think of a viable way to do damage.
so tell us now...what's a more viable way to do damage than sagat's super jump short after a fierce DP.

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

All i gotta say is that if it was such a good mixup, I woulda seen it by now in the 10's of top-level cvs2 matches I've watched from the US and Japan. And I haven't. Point out vids that display this incredible "frame specific" mixup and I'll bow out.

Ino did it in a Japanese 5 on 5. He did empty jump crossup into tiger raid. But I guess you would have simply held db unless you saw a lk come out and safely blocked it lol. Maybe you just need better comp and then you'll agree that it's not so easy to block correctly.

[kcxj]

I cleaned the sand out of his vagina for him, but I guess he doesn't appreciate it. :rofl:

I like best how Buk threatened to ban us all because of the dumb stuff in the tier thread, but retarded troll posts like these are fine though. Anyway, no point replying and trying to explain any further. It doesn't matter what you say, trolls get their rocks off whenever people get baited into replying. Rather than waste multiple pages arguing over something pointless, just let them do whatever they want I say.

[(THE) Geese]

Ino did it in a Japanese 5 on 5. He did empty jump crossup into tiger raid. But I guess you would have simply held db unless you saw a lk come out and safely blocked it lol. Maybe you just need better comp and then you'll agree that it's not so easy to block correctly.

umm quite a difference...that's just a ghetto baitout tactic, it's not a "omg so hard to tell which way to block" tactic. He prolly did Tiger Raid cause it's safe on block and beats most alpha counters. What did u expect him to do? Tiger Genocide? And umm yeah, just to clarify. Empty jumpin super is one of the oldest, most ghetto, and most reliable tricks in SF. You can't compare it to kcffxjx's retarded mixup.

[vasAZNion13]

umm quite a difference...that's just a ghetto baitout tactic, it's not a "omg so hard to tell which way to block" tactic. He prolly did Tiger Raid cause it's safe on block and beats most alpha counters. What did u expect him to do? Tiger Genocide? And umm yeah, just to clarify. Empty jumpin super is one of the oldest, most ghetto, and most reliable tricks in SF. You can't compare it to kcffxjx's retarded mixup.

plz stop posting flamebaits.

1)kcxj's mixup is actually a universal one that's been around for a while, so yes you can compare it to empty jump tiger raid.
2)ino doesn't do tiger raid for the safety reason, cuz it's not safe
3)the only reason why we're discussing this is because you pointed out that we're too stupid to avoid cross up j.short. however you failed to realize that if the players you play CAN blcok the j.short correctly, there's still two options afterwards, so please, pay more attention to the point of his post rather than just bits and pieces of it.
4)just to clarify this to you as well, this looks similar to what happened to the ongoing tier thread, so try not to refer to people as douche bags, or purposely screw up their name or even call an something retarded. it's flamebait and we dont' need any more of it.

[CrimsonDisaster]

umm quite a difference...that's just a ghetto baitout tactic, it's not a "omg so hard to tell which way to block" tactic. He prolly did Tiger Raid cause it's safe on block and beats most alpha counters. What did u expect him to do? Tiger Genocide? And umm yeah, just to clarify. Empty jumpin super is one of the oldest, most ghetto, and most reliable tricks in SF. You can't compare it to kcffxjx's retarded mixup.

kcxj's mixup IS an empty jump mixup... you either have to block a crossup j.short (which isn't that hard, yes) or block a low short. It's not some "frame specific" mixup or anything. The j.short doesn't even have to crossup for it to be the same exact mixup of hit them high into combo, or land and hit them low into combo. The crossup factor just makes it harder to DP reliably.

Just 'cuz kcxj doesn't go by some random Engrish name or doesn't live in Japan doesn't mean that mixup doesn't work. It's a thing that you can't block on auto-pilot or even on reaction if it's done correctly (not that hard).

Anyhow, as to the original post, a bunch of those can be DP'd so they're not true 50/50s.

[(THE) Geese]

tiger raid is safe. If by unsafe u mean it can be reversal blah blah blah'ed when the moon is out and with quadruple reversal anti-clitoris timing, then yeah i guess so. But by all reasitc measurement its safe. And so is 1-hit bison knee press.

[FreddyL0c0]

is this conversation for real?

sagats jumping short/no short/crossup/no cross up (which basically leads into the realm of mixups) can be very deceiving Geese. If people often fall for this Sagat setup...and trust me, even the best do...then they are getting mixep up.

this isn't even debatable


oh and by the way, wheter the timing is strict or not, u without realizing, aggreed that tiger raid is not safe:

even if it needs, as u so eloquently said, a quadruple reversal anti-clitoris timing, it still qualifies as UNSAFE, cause in the end u can still get hit afterwards...k. thx

[halcyonryu]

1-hit bison knee press is very unsafe...people still do that? You'd think that the elite players that never get crossed up or fooled by empty jumps would counter some scrub shit like that...tiger raid is actually pretty safe unless they are short but knee press? Seriously?

[Buktooth]

Time for a subject change.

(THE) Geese, disagreeing with people is fine, adding random insults to all your posts is not. That's your warning.

The fuhrer has spoken.

[WindyMan]

HEIL FUHRER!

*ahem*

Raiden's 50/50s are really good. For a jump-in, wakeup or any 360 grab situation, if they sit there, you can throw them. If they see it coming, you can poison breath them as they jump away. Works with the super versions, too.

[(THE) Geese]

ok guys u win. Mostly everything is unsafe. I think we should all stick to shorts and throws so we dotn get reversal Shippu'ed...

U GUYS WIN.

PS. Crossups are a mixup. U GUYS WIN AGAIN.

[vasAZNion13]

tiger raid is safe. If by unsafe u mean it can be reversal blah blah blah'ed when the moon is out and with quadruple reversal anti-clitoris timing, then yeah i guess so. But by all reasitc measurement its safe. And so is 1-hit bison knee press.

yea, sort of. lvl 3 raid is -5(iirc), so any 2-3 frame has a good chacne to punish. on higher lvl player, lvl 3 raid shouldn't be used just to burn bar, imo. but this is a little off topic so i'll just say yeah it's safe/unsafe depending on which character you're playing against.

[epsilon_]

Man this was the 1st time I really read this thread, and LOL. Tiger raid safe LOL, man I though you were getting better Geese. Guess not.

[kcxj]

Raiden's 50/50s are really good. For a jump-in, wakeup or any 360 grab situation, if they sit there, you can throw them. If they see it coming, you can poison breath them as they jump away. Works with the super versions, too.
I like to guess. Pick an option and go RANDOM. :rofl:

-close s.LK, 720 grab
-close s.LK, d.LP, d.LK xx death punches

+4 on the close s.LK, zero frame gap on close s.LK, d.LP. If the opponent tries anything other than jump away after the s.LK, they get super grabbed. If they try to jump away, they get comboed. I wonder how hard it is to backdash out though...

-----

-d.LP, d.LP, RC 360+LK
-d.LP, d.LP, d.LK xx death punches

The two jabs push you out of range so that it's pretty much impossible for the opponent to grab you out of your RC. Cheap!

-----

-meaty close s.MK, 720
-meaty close s.MK, d.LK/d.MK xx punches

-----

-knockdown, whiff something (like close s.MP), 720 or RC 360
-knockdown, whiff something, d.LP, d.LP xx HAMMER MOUNTAIN!

-----

Cheap-ass VDO and his cheesy Raiden is what has inspired me to start using this character. I haven't had a chance to play anybody good with this character yet though, so take whatever mix-ups I just listed with a grain of salt for now. I don't know how truly effective they are yet.

[(THE) Geese]

Man this was the 1st time I really read this thread, and LOL. Tiger raid safe LOL, man I though you were getting better Geese. Guess not.

wtf lvl2 tiger raid is pretty much safe. why would u ever use lvl1 or 3? y ever use non-c sagat? haha seriously lvl2 is safe as in 99% safe.

[Buktooth]

wtf lvl2 tiger raid is pretty much safe. why would u ever use lvl1 or 3? y ever use non-c sagat? haha seriously lvl2 is safe as in 99% safe.
...unless you're fighting against N-Groove or any short character.

ok seriously now, SUBJECT CHANGE.

[epsilon_]

I know his level 2 is safe, but whoever was talking, was talking about Ino's K groove Sagat.

[(THE) Geese]

I'll list a ghetto mixup i dont agree with but it's Majestro's so w/e. With guile, jumpin after a sonic boom, and do either a very deep j. rh, or land and do a c. forward. Maj is awesome with guile, so yeah listen to him.

OH SHIT, I remember my super ghetto mixup I made up haha.

Do any good closeup jab/short then walkup and press fierce. For example, with Shotos do c. short or c. jab, then walkup and press towards plus fierce. What happens most of the time is u either get a counter hit close s. fierce because it comes out so quick or u get a throw. Works with lots of characters. With Vega, i do close s. shorts, then walkup and press towards + fierce. You either get his punch throw or his fierce which is an anti-poke move upclose but the bad thing is its unsafe even when u hit with it from upclose lol. oh well still looks good. It's in the ECC9 Walberg vs r1beatdown vid on my site www.illusionsofoasis.com (currently under major construction be back in a week or so) where walberg's vega does that same trick i have (no i didnt copy it i saw it after i came up with it long time ago) to roger's guile.

You can also do same thing with like TONS of characters with good fast close hard attacks...like close s. short with Chun, walkup mash on fierce...u either get close s. fierce xx super or u get throw or tech.

It's good mixup considering how ghetto it is...also, the more random u mash, the better it is, cause not even u will know what ur going for haha im not even joking. :sad:

oh yeah i forgot god of this mixup...cammy! do c. short, walk up and mash on fierce...its so sick cause Cammy has like 1 whole second to link the super after haha...way too good.

[(THE) Geese]

1-hit bison knee press is very unsafe...


rofl stfu. VERY unsafe eh? lol YOU WIN BUDDY. take ur secret info and have a victory party.

plz.

[halcyonryu]

Lol im not gonna argue with you. I thought about listing all the ways to punish a scissor kick but, I realized that I would just be arguing with like the biggest troll in the cvs forums, so thats not worth it. If you wanna know just look up the recovery frames in the book, and you can draw your own conclusions.

Anyway have a nice day I'm done with this thread.

[FullMetalRoss]

lvl 3 tiger raid is not safe. Ken reveral dp it. Sagat can too. the only trouble is with Sagat a p-groover can parry it cause of the being able to parry before blocking.

[Gwai Lo ½]

Lol im not gonna argue with you. I thought about listing all the ways to punish a scissor kick but, I realized that I would just be arguing with like the biggest troll in the cvs forums, so thats not worth it. If you wanna know just look up the recovery frames in the book, and you can draw your own conclusions.

Anyway have a nice day I'm done with this thread.

Frame data that says you are in disadvantage doesnt necessarily mean that it can be punished. It depends a lot on the distances aswell... i think this was discussed before about hibikis b&b.... and im sure it applies to bisons scissor kick (as there are different degrees of 1 hit.. as there are many different degrees of a 2 hit scissor kick).. so i think some 1 hit scissor kicks are safe, while others can be punished (ie by sakuras wp dragon)

[Yumi Saotome]

Ken's retarded ambiguous crossover after an alpha counter or strong dp is mind numbingly stupid. Sometimes, the person doing it doesn't know which way it'll hit.

[(THE) Geese]

Lol im not gonna argue with you. I thought about listing all the ways to punish a scissor kick but, I realized that I would just be arguing with like the biggest troll in the cvs forums, so thats not worth it. If you wanna know just look up the recovery frames in the book, and you can draw your own conclusions.

Anyway have a nice day I'm done with this thread.

god ur stupid. u win.

[vasAZNion13]

(the) geese: that last comment wasn't needed. chillax to the max plz.

and to make the tiger raid discussion more on topic:

after lvl 2 tiger rAID(blocked:
1)DP
2)throw

:tup:

[wepeel]

some day, there will be a time in which subject headers like "50/50 Mix-Ups!" will only have discussion related to 50/50 mix-ups...didn't most people download the scans of the frame data? didn't most people remember how little credibility that geese guy had back in the day with campbell's tip thread? do we all have nothing better to do in the winter? Sorry this post contains no 50/50 stuff; I'll try to do something constructive later...

[(THE) Geese]

some day, there will be a time in which subject headers like "50/50 Mix-Ups!" will only have discussion related to 50/50 mix-ups...didn't most people download the scans of the frame data? didn't most people remember how little credibility that geese guy had back in the day with campbell's tip thread? do we all have nothing better to do in the winter? Sorry this post contains no 50/50 stuff; I'll try to do something constructive later...

frame data doesnt mean shit. And no, nobody read the frame guide cause nobody cares. YOU WIN.

[Ducky]

Frame data that says you are in disadvantage doesnt necessarily mean that it can be punished. It depends a lot on the distances aswell... i think this was discussed before about hibikis b&b.... and im sure it applies to bisons scissor kick (as there are different degrees of 1 hit.. as there are many different degrees of a 2 hit scissor kick).. so i think some 1 hit scissor kicks are safe, while others can be punished (ie by sakuras wp dragon)

Depending on spacing, the 1 hit scissor kick is safe. If you judge the spacing wrong and hit too early with it, then it can be punished, like you said. I don't think I've ever been punished after LPx3, s.MP, LK scissor kick (1 hit), and if I have, I would remember it. Most of the time I can mash on LP and throw out a c.LP that stuffs whatever they try to stick out. Sometimes I judge the distance wrong and get stuffed though.

[RagingStormX]

Raiden's mix-up are really effective, the problemis getting into that range to use them. Jumping shorts ownz all.

[UCRJesse]

Time for a subject change.

(THE) Geese, disagreeing with people is fine, adding random insults to all your posts is not. That's your warning.

The fuhrer has spoken.

i.e.- rock's counter is actually very unuseful in that situation, you assberry.

or.

the jumping empty crossup is more of a 25/25/25/25 mixup since there are 4 options, you buttpirate.

[noodleman]

man, why do you guys even read the geeses's posts? I've learn to phase out what he posts. He's never posted one bit of good tactic/info on ANY thread...he's just a flame starting troll...jsut ignore him, he'll shut up soon enough.

On 50/50 mix up, you can add to gief the st.lk, 720/qcfx2 + k, though as kcxj mentioned, using relatively unsafe moves as 50/50 is sorta bad.

There's always the scrubby, hop, grab/super mixup with blanka.

Cammy's got the cheesy, meaty fp, throw/ or another fp/cr.mk xx super mixup.

[(THE) Geese]

man, why do you guys even read the geeses's posts? I've learn to phase out what he posts. He's never posted one bit of good tactic/info on ANY thread...he's just a flame starting troll...jsut ignore him, he'll shut up soon enough.

lmfao.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 7 characters.

Why are ppl posting stuff that is super unsafe and pretty useless? C. short, grab/aa-super with Gief? That isn't even ghetto good, it's just random guessing. 50/50 implies safety IMO. That's why stuff like Honda s. jab, c. rh/360 is GOOD. Cause it doesn't leave u flying up into the sky for your opponent to do the biggest combo he's go when you land.

USEFUL 50/50 mixups include stuff like...random thoughts coming...

Yama: c. short -> c. forward/grabsuper

short/fierce: shoto c. short, walkup fierce to get either counter hit close s. fierce or throw, can do this with almost ne1

low jump/low short: blanka low jump, c. short, s. jab super

HERE IS A USEFUL GIEF MIXUP:

u small jump in with short (not the knee drop...the long kick), then depending on how u mash the 360+short, u will either get...

-c. short, tick 360+short
-360+short close version straight up
-far 360+short grab
-c. short, tick far 360+short

Plz dont counter with i can see the running grab coming cause ive seen good ppl fall for this off more ghetto setups then lowjump short.

Note that it's better to mix it up with mashing 360+RH cause it moves gief faster when he does his running version.

__________________

Blanka crossup cheapness...against certain ppl u can do crossup forward, c. short, s. jab, crossup forward, c. short s. jab. .. Since Blanka's crossup is extremly good since u can do it very deep like 3S Ken, u can do a 50/50 and at the last send possible, either do crossup forward so he hits with his knee, or u can land and throw. It sounds ghetto but it works. And no this isn't the Sagat mixup I was saying sucked...this isn't meant to trick ne1 into getting hit high low...it's meant to throw them when they expect another crossup.

_____________________

With honda, u can do meaty s. jab, lvl2 super since its perfectly safe on block and as kcjx mentioned all the hits hit if they try to jump...

Same type of mixup is Sagat crossup short, then u can walkup jabs, then walkup try to throw off its major frame advantage and do lvl2 raid instead. It takes a lot of speed to do this tho.

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Another mixup for Sagat is low jump rh, mix it up with empty lowjump, then lvl3 Raid which as most ppl know is unblockable if guy isn't blocking low when it activates.

Same thing can be done with Sak. Crossup forwards, into w/e...then mixitup with crossup empty, lvl3 Low super.

Same thing can be done with Sak's low jump rh which acts as a very quick overhead. Tease the opponent with it, then when they expect it, do empty low jump, lvl3 low super... Same properties as lvl3 Raid.

More setups that are pretty safe include...

Raideon, j. short, grab super or flame super (iirc its safe on block as long as they cant crouch it?). Good mixup thats pretty safe.

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With guile, you can do lvl1 rush super, then after block, u can either do a lvl2 rush or throw them. 50/50 relatively safe.

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Balrog/Bison u can do same things. Roll super with them, then lvl1 supers...then after they are blocked, lvl2 supers or throw. Bison's lvl1 and 2 supers are safe on block. IIRC so are Rog's? Good mixup not a big deal to waste meter since C-groove builds it up easily.

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Ken and others with short, short combos have good mixups...

Things like Ken meaty c. short, short, walkup c. short, s. short funky kick...safe on block and knockdown which leads to ambiguous crossup.

Ryu can do same thing. Meaty c. short, short, walkup, c. shrot, s. fierce xx red Hadoken = knockdown and pretty safe on block.

SO many SAFE mixups i dunno why ppl would ever bother with stuff like random Gief supers ...

[noodleman]

to quote myself...please read the text in bold....


On 50/50 mix up, you can add to gief the st.lk, 720/qcfx2 + k, though as kcxj mentioned, using relatively unsafe moves as 50/50 is sorta bad.


and 50/50 implies....50/50...as in one or the other...you have a 50% chance of hitting with your move, doesn't imply that the two moves you choose are both safe. If they guess right, you're most likely taking damage regardless of how "safe" a move might be.

[(THE) Geese]

to quote myself...please read the text in bold....



and 50/50 implies....50/50...as in one or the other...you have a 50% chance of hitting with your move, doesn't imply that the two moves you choose are both safe. If they guess right, you're most likely taking damage regardless of how "safe" a move might be.

if u take a look at all the accepted 50/50's they are all safe. Yamazaki was prolly one of the first ones that Viscant brought up. Most ppl had no idea about low moves stuffing jump attempts due to frame advantage, and this was a beautiful SAFE example of how this worked. The 2nd 50/50 that Buktooth revealed IIRC was Todo's c. jab, throw/c. rh which is against pretty safe. Then the 3rd was when some1 mentioned the Jap Honda 50/50 which is meaty s. jab, c. rh/360. This is again safe because of they jump up, u can s. fierce aa.

[vasAZNion13]

Then the 3rd was when some1 mentioned the Jap Honda 50/50 which is meaty s. jab, c. rh/360. This is again safe because of they jump up, u can s. fierce aa.

well, if you guys are gonna argue that 50/50 mixups have to be SAFE and be TRUE 50/50's, you might as well say that the honda mixup isn't a true/safe 50/50 mixup cuz if you do c.rh, and they DP, you get hit.

in fact there is no true 50/50 mixup.

todo.

you c.jab on wake up, they do reversal dp...no longer safe.

if you let these "50/50 mixups" slide through, then why do you even mention the validity of kcxj's posted mixup?

[(THE) Geese]

well, if you guys are gonna argue that 50/50 mixups have to be SAFE and be TRUE 50/50's, you might as well say that the honda mixup isn't a true/safe 50/50 mixup cuz if you do c.rh, and they DP, you get hit.

in fact there is no true 50/50 mixup.

todo.

you c.jab on wake up, they do reversal dp...no longer safe.

if you let these "50/50 mixups" slide through, then why do you even mention the validity of kcxj's posted mixup?

there is a huge difference between what ppl refer to as SAFE and what true 100% safety is. In SF safe means most of the time u won't get heavy punishment. There is no absolutes in SF. And I never hated on kcgx's mixup cause it wasn't safe...it's very safe...it's just dumb to think that u can't see a crossup SJ short coming. The mixup AFTER the jumpin is fine.

But to compare the safety of Gief PICK UR SUPER! 50/50 to other ones like Honda is just funny cause they're nothing alike safety wise.

[CrimsonDisaster]

TRUE 50/50 means you have two options which cover any possible counters... which means nothing is quite 50/50 thanks to grab supers which will pretty much eat a lot of setups alive.

The accepted meaning of 50/50 is that your two options counter all probable methods of dealing with them...
It doesn't mean safe or unpunishable. Does that mean you should do certain setups just 'cuz they're 50/50 setups? No. But they're good to know anyhow.

Honda's c.jab, sweep/RC 360 is pretty close to a 50/50. Barring random grab supers, RC 360 beats everything except like jump and certain L3s (depends on the super and distances) and sweep beats jump, which is the most likely answer to RC grabs anyhow since.
Same with Todo's c.jab, sweep/RC grab.

But yeah, the closer things get to 50/50, the more unsafe or wasteful they become... Raiden's 720/firebreath setup, for instance. Or the 'Gief example. Or Yamazaki Roll super.

Yama's is actually pretty close to 50/50, even though it sucks. Anything you do on the ground will lose to grab super (if you do L2/3 grab super and then his comes out, either you both whiff or he wins...)... and anything in the air loses to the other super. Everybody knows the "mixup," everybody knows it sucks but it's pretty much 50/50. Yay.

[Alphastorm]

Back to the Bison's scissor kick...

I believe the 1 hit scissor kick is safe. You can retaliate with any 2 frame move after blocking it but I don't think there is a move that can reach him. His scissor kick pushes him too far away from the opponent.

[Shin Ace]

TRUE 50/50 means you have two options which cover any possible counters... which means nothing is quite 50/50 thanks to grab supers which will pretty much eat a lot of setups alive.

The accepted meaning of 50/50 is that your two options counter all probable methods of dealing with them...
It doesn't mean safe or unpunishable. Does that mean you should do certain setups just 'cuz they're 50/50 setups? No. But they're good to know anyhow.

Honda's c.jab, sweep/RC 360 is pretty close to a 50/50. Barring random grab supers, RC 360 beats everything except like jump and certain L3s (depends on the super and distances) and sweep beats jump, which is the most likely answer to RC grabs anyhow since.
Same with Todo's c.jab, sweep/RC grab.

But yeah, the closer things get to 50/50, the more unsafe or wasteful they become... Raiden's 720/firebreath setup, for instance. Or the 'Gief example. Or Yamazaki Roll super.

Yama's is actually pretty close to 50/50, even though it sucks. Anything you do on the ground will lose to grab super (if you do L2/3 grab super and then his comes out, either you both whiff or he wins...)... and anything in the air loses to the other super. Everybody knows the "mixup," everybody knows it sucks but it's pretty much 50/50. Yay.

What about option selects? I know one that only has 2 ways out. Tech throw, and jump. That makes the mix-up obsolete.
Or does it? Since you need to have meter and be in a specific groove for my shit to work.

Mix-up is all about the mix-up. It's damage based, not risk based. You don't do it because it's safe. You do it because it's easy damage.

[UCRJesse]

Yama's is actually pretty close to 50/50, even though it sucks. Anything you do on the ground will lose to grab super (if you do L2/3 grab super and then his comes out, either you both whiff or he wins...)... and anything in the air loses to the other super. Everybody knows the "mixup," everybody knows it sucks but it's pretty much 50/50. Yay.

it's 50/50 but the odds are in the opponents favor since either way you lose all of your meter.

[Alphastorm]

That's why mixups with supers are no good at all. ex: roll super. It's better to mixup with moves that can combo into super :P

[Gwai Lo ½]

Back to the Bison's scissor kick...

I believe the 1 hit scissor kick is safe. You can retaliate with any 2 frame move after blocking it but I don't think there is a move that can reach him. His scissor kick pushes him too far away from the opponent.

sakura weak dp. and where did you get "2 frame" from? you dont know that.. in fact i dont think anyone can know that.. you might have an estimate through hours of testing.. but sakuras weak dp can definitely punish a 1 hit scissor kick... but i think there might be a certain range it cant.

[Shin Ace]

sakura weak dp. and where did you get "2 frame" from? you dont know that.. in fact i dont think anyone can know that.. you might have an estimate through hours of testing.. but sakuras weak dp can definitely punish a 1 hit scissor kick... but i think there might be a certain range it cant.

C'mon. It shouldn't be too hard to go into training, set bison to do c.lp x2, s.mp xx scissors, followed by block.
Then see if you can counter hit that shit with a weak dragon.
If bison does a perfectly spaced, perfectly timed lk scissor(by itself, no string), he'll hit too meaty. In that case, he's too far and has already recovered. But if he's using them in strings, it should be a damn close call between safe and unsafe.
Besides, I spam that shit sometimes and most people don't punish it as much as they should.

[Jeffzorz]

50/50?
roll grab or super.

[*InVeRs3*]

Not really a mixup but, with Sim, slide under the jump in and press back and HP, you'll either throw him or headbutt him if he's a bit far.

[wepeel]

please!!! what a tragic loss of a potentially great thread...

[popoblo]

please!!! what a tragic loss of a potentially great thread...

welcome to srk, where good things go bad in a hurry. at least i tried.

[vasAZNion13]

please!!! what a tragic loss of a potentially great thread...
we know who to blame.

[FMJaguar]

Back to the Bison's scissor kick...

I believe the 1 hit scissor kick is safe. You can retaliate with any 2 frame move after blocking it but I don't think there is a move that can reach him. His scissor kick pushes him too far away from the opponent.



Bison's level 1 scissor kick super and one hit short scissor kick are NOT safe.

After blocking Bison's level 1 scissor kick super, Bison is left at a -3 frame disadvantage. So if your character has a 2 frame move that will reach Bison, it's possible to punish him. It's not EASY to punish him, but the opportunity is there.

Notable examples:

Sagat s.jab (into low forward super)
Blanka s.jab (into ball/super)
Shoto s.jab (into low forward)
Chun low jab (into low strong)
Sak s.jab (into s.short DP or link CC)
Iori s.jab (into rekkas)

Likewise for blocking a max range Bison 1 hit short scissor kick... like the kind you get when Bison does low jab x2, s.strong, short scissor kick. Widely thought to be completely safe while destroying the guard bar, it actually leaves Bison at an approximate -5 disadvantage. Any 4 frame move that reaches far enough will hit Bison for free... the problem is, most big characters don't have a 4 frame move that goes that far. Again, the timing is pretty strict, but the threat still exists.

Notable examples:

Sagat low forward
Blanka low forward
Geese low forward


Ha, quotes don't count in the message length, this is the longest post ever that isn't 7 characters (before i typed this).

[Alphastorm]

I went ahead and tested bison's c.jabx2, s.strong, short 1-hit scissor kick (all blocked) and I was able to reversal jab dp with sakura, s.short into combo with both sakura and ken. So now I know it's punishable even though half of them can't. Thanks for helping me clear this up. I only tested this using the above block string. It may not hold true if bison's scissor kick is blocked differently.

[AkAaTa]

does yun's c.short tick into rc command grab work as a 50/50 like ehonda/todos?