Efficient P groove Thread [Archive]

Mickey D'

01-04-2005, 11:32 PM

Before you close the thread Buk, read this first! The old P groove thread was pretty disorganized, and the “new” P groove thread really didn’t have any thing going for it. I wanted this thread to be a whole compilation of what has been said so far. In otherwords, this thread breaks down all the garbage that didn’t need to be said in the other threads.

Most of these things have been cut and paste, and are not my strategies. I did however reword it so that people can have an easier time reading it. Once again I don’t take credit for the things that I’m going to put in this thread, as they are ideas that are posted in the other threads

These strategies came from:

Nick T.
Eightysix
Lifetimeboy
S4v
Kcxj
*InVeRs3*
Some of my own stuff

With that said I’ll compile the information into different sections:

-P groove main strategey
-P groove tips
-Character Selection, various in depth character posts(why they are good)

Mickey D'

01-04-2005, 11:37 PM

- I'd say one of the more important parts of playing P-Groove is learning to read your oppenent. If you see a pattern forming, take advantage of it. Highly risky, but the trade-off is pretty good. Unless you eat supers.

- One miss timed parry and you're dead but one perfectly timed parry can lead to big health damage plus psychological damage. K is way safer overall than P.

- You wanna focus on straight up ground game/footsies more than parrying all day. Make sure they know that they can't jump at you for free cuz you'll punish them with an anti air. Not a parry that leads to a usually blocked combo or throw at best.

- P-Groove really has little to do with parrying ability, it's all about having a really strong ground game. Good players will mix you up so much that trying to parry is gonna be a big risk that you don't wanna take.

- Basically you don't get that manny parries, but maybe you try for alot that are relatively safe. People only see the ones you guessed correctly on. It's really only 10% of your game tho, 90% Footsies.

- Effectively incorporating low parry into one's general gameplan is an absolute must to becoming a powerful P-groove player. I personally would not go near P-groove ever, unless I've throughly practiced such.

- Character selection makes a huge impact on P groove. As I type this i'm starting to think the most limited character selection goes to p. Here's my order from most limited to free: P, K, C, N, A, S. I get the feeling that the C, N, and A can be swapped in some ways but the the others are pretty fair I think.

- Parrying jump-ins is another no-no. If you can hit them cleanly - do it. Every time. Matter of fact only time you shouldn't always anti air is if the enemy is also p/k or has a custom/air super.

- Bouya said on wakeup P groovers should do: 10% Shoryu, 10% Parry 80% Block. If you use a wakeup super and miss. You then set up the worst thing that can happen in the game. You waste your super and you get punished by your enemy's super.

- Try to out poke the enemy. Stop going for risky parries. Sometimes players need to play risky, to keep the enemy honest. Thats the real skill, knowing when and how to risk.

- The main disadvantage about option select-ing is that your not going to take full advantage of the parry. You will only get a sweep. With cammy it's good because her S. FP almost always gives a time to capatalize. Thats why Cammy can be good for optionselect there. You really don't wanna go for a parry and not be able to capatalize as much as you can.

- If you almost never parry, then the enemy won't be looking for it as much. Then maybe you can get one important one that can win you the match. Good players hardly parry at all. Thats why the one chance they get a parry they make it something that defines the winner of a match.

- In a match your working on your ground game, footsies, and patience. Then, throughout the match your getting the enemy to think a certain way so you can get that one critical parry to win.

- Knowing matchups is an obvious asset towards playing a good P groove. Knowing when to parry high/low in different situations become match up dependent. Know your matchups

Mickey D'

01-04-2005, 11:42 PM

- Intentionally use a semi-laggy, but safe move to make your oppenent block it to see if they attack right afterwards. Frames can come into this idea as well. Using a move that has slight frame advantage/disadvantage (ranging around +2 to -3)can be very deceptive.

- Small jumps are good for a 3 option mixup (throw, low, high) best used after a knockdown. You can’t parry when in small jump. Small jumps basically make you more mobile, with the option of letting you mix your opponent up.

- Option Select - Joystick and button input that simultaneously functions as multiple possible actions, automatically choosing the best possible counter to several of the opponent's options. Insert down/forward + the punch/kick of your choice in hopes of parrying in case your opponent tried to hit you first.

- Proxy Parrying - Making your opponent throw out a far hitting move. From there, you see the move come out, and parry the ending hitting frames of the move. In example Chun Li's s.mp. You can watch the s.mp come out, and walk into a parry. This is what is known as "proxy parry"

ShinNeosnake

01-05-2005, 02:38 PM

I agree with this. Shutting down the air game (Anti-air them, air throw, etc.) then establishing the ground game is a good way to fight, but this seems to be the goal of almost every groove. Just in P groove you want to absolutely shut down the air game and force opponents to attack from the ground so you can get parries and punish them. I know I'm repeating what you said but I guess its easier to comprehend fi you keep hearing it.

If you are knocked down, the best thing to do is to block on wakeup and wait to tech a throw. Seriously, this leads to death on the missed parry because if you try to low parry and they go high they can combo into super and vice versa.

Most of the time, if a P groove player jumps at you for the first time, they want to see what your reaction is to their jumping and they will almost all the time try to Parry, I play P groove (just not that good) and most of my jump attacks are from low jumps.

Another note: When P groove has meter its more dangerous than without for obvious reasons. Once certain characters gain that super in P groove, they become that much better (Rock is an example) using Rock as the example, you now have to worry about Rock's Shine Knuckle and play more safe, you can't jump anymore because Raging Storm will do a chunk of damage.

On Parries:
Parries should not be done randomly, because a good player playing against P groove will attempt to mix up high and low.

Parrying is a guessing game that can lead to big damage. But parrying should not be attempted in the first Round unless you have already studied your opponent and his tendencies. But once you get multiple consecutive parries and punish him afterwards, he will become afraid to attack. Parries work on the mental thought of a player as well as his the character's health (assuming you punish him after each parry)

*InVeRs3*

01-05-2005, 03:58 PM

-Intentionally use a semi-laggy, but safe move to make your oppenent block it to see if they attack right afterwards. For example, I use Vega and I'll do his fierce rolling attack and if my oppenent attacks low, I'll keep that in mind. Next time I do it, I'll parry low right after the move is finished. The chances of it being the same move is pretty high because most people usually look for a knockdown after a laggy move. However, I don't recommend doing this if your oppenent is sitting on a level 3 super, obviously.

- Small jumps are good for a 3 option mixup (throw, low, high) best used after a knockdown. You can’t parry when in small jump. Small jumps basically make you more mobile, with the option of letting you mix your opponent up.

- Option Select - Joystick and button input that simultaneously functions as multiple possible actions, automatically choosing the best possible counter to several of the opponent's options. Insert down/forward + the punch/kick of your choice in hopes of parrying in case your opponent tried to hit you first.

Small jumps are good for 4-5 mixup options, i meant to edit that ages ago.

high,low,throw,parry,counter hit*.

Just remember when you small jump, not to eat a super.

Mickey D'

01-05-2005, 04:42 PM

- P cammy is really good from scrub level to advanced. She has speed, priority, and big damage. Most bad match ups that Cammy has die because of parrying. She's good in wide range of situations and skill level.

- Option selecting her HP has can be deadly since her HP can be linked into so much.

- Any half decent P groover can pick up cammy and do some damage. Basically she's the best p groove character based on her ease of use, high priority, lots of match ups in her favor, and damage.

- By far the most solid P groove character is cammy.

- Cammy also gains more mobility due to small jump and parry. This makes Cammy a little more scary. It now allows her to rush or turtle on the drop of a dime.

popoblo

01-05-2005, 09:02 PM

i'll add my random P-groove stuff.......

-every P-groove team should have cammy. supposedly she's the 3rd best character in the game, and if you're already handicapping yourself by picking P-groove, at least pick cammy to even things up a bit.

-having a P-groove character with an invincible DP is HUGE. this is highly underrrated. some people use parry to cover up spotty AA games, but it also gives your opponent a chance to take the initiative and mixup their jump ins to get in. you can take it all away with a good DP. cammy, sagat, kyo, etc. all good choices. they jump, you fierce/RH DP EVERYTIME.

-i remember watching vids of gee-o putting his R2 cammy SECOND to counter the inevitable A-sakura. the idea was to have cammy be able to eat a chip shosho CC, then still hit sakura with a level 3 to even out the damage. just something to think about.

-if your opponent tries to cross up you, tap a direction. you'll either parry or block. takes a lot of guessing out of ambiguous crossup setups.

-it's nice to have P-groove characters WITHOUT charge supers. parrying into low forward xx super is infinitely easier than worrying about having your charge stored, THEN getting a parry, then executing and finishing it off. once you add in tourney pressure, it's just nicer to have double quarter circle motions for supers IMO. but if you're dope like makoto and can play P-vega, don't worry about it.

-NEVER EVER EVER EVER waste your super. no wake-up supers, no dash into supers, no risky guesses. it's not like K-groove where you get 2-3 per round, you usually 2-3 PER GAME. either combo into your super, or use it only if it's guaranteed.

-P-rolento is dope:karate:

peace

Ouroborus

01-06-2005, 07:16 AM

sagat makes P cammy cry

popoblo

01-06-2005, 09:55 AM

well, at least P-cammy can parry sagat's low tigers (or just level 3 through them if you're quick enough). afterwards, it's footsies. sagat's standing lk beats cammy's standing rh, but cammy's far standing fierce trades with his standing lk. but the problem with cammy walking up and spamming fierce is low forward or standing fierce into super.

peace

Ouroborus

01-06-2005, 12:36 PM

sagats standing fierce beats cammys standing fierce.

this match is just disgusting. sagat gets like level 2 like every 5 second which does more and has more uses than all of cammy's already slow charging super.

and sagat takes less and does more, which makes it even worse when he gets a damage boost from the groove subsystems.

i'd take K cammy over P cammy vs sagat but for almost everything else, i'd take P cammy.

lifetimeboy

01-06-2005, 05:42 PM

Yeah Sagat does more and takes less but, I think a really solid P cammy can handle sagats. I would rather face a C sagat than a K sagat tho. If Sagat gets a random super in, cammy is finished. However if cammy controls sagat on the ground and is really patient, she can win. Cammy does have more mobility and better pokes Vs. Sagat i think. It's really just all about patience for Cammy.

Counter hit Far s.Fp will link into super too, so thats another way to do damage from far out. I usually try to Proxyparry from far out, then when the short trades with your fp, super!

LTB

The Great Sephiroth

01-06-2005, 09:11 PM

Mickey D'

01-06-2005, 10:20 PM

LTB and I have talked about this rescently. He feels that characters like Sagat and Blanka are good in P groove just because they are very solid characters as is. It's obvious that Sagat does benefit a fair amount from parry. However Blanka doesn't benefit off of a parry nearly as much as people like Rolento, Kyo, or Cammy.

As I said before, Blanka is a solid character in every groove. Nothing makes him stand out in P groove unlike the main 3-4 characters who greatly benefit from P groove.

Ken isn't to great in P from what I understand. He doesn't benefit greatly from parrying. However his low jump moves are pretty strong.

I've heard of LTB saying that he likes P yamazaki, I'm not to sure why. The only reason why I would think this is because it really compliments his style of zoning. Yamazaki has a tough time getting in, but he can zone a lot. However when your opponent finds a way in, don't expect him to lay off easily. Parry can get you out of situations like this.

Nick T.

01-06-2005, 10:24 PM

I feel dumb for asking, but how do you guys use P-Blanka? IMO I think a turtling P-Blanka isn't as effective as a rushing P-Blanka, even though all Blanka can do after a parry while rushing down is probably a c.fierce or Knockdown or throw (or maybe he can do c.short, c.short, s.jab, Blanka Ball, but I'm not sure if that gives you enough time to charge once you get a parry in). And he can make a great battery character as well.

With P-Blanka, it depends on the situation. You don't have RC, but small jump and parry, so you lose 2 good attacks for slightly more mobility. So just use the mobility to ur advantage and think about character matchups, etc.
Basically, use Blanka to get parry setups up close depending on th character. Use these to mixup or make your opponent afraid to attack. Then if they get afraid to attack, break their guard meter down with electricity. Then when you get meter stay charged, and bait a parry setup into super.

And can P-Ken and P-Yamazaki contend with the top P-groove characters when they're fighting the usual CBS or A-Are teams?I think P Yamazaki would be better because of some things.

-No RC: if you use Ken he's not going to do good in certain matchups compared to if he had RC.

-Yamazaki with parry gives him a better way to capitalize off mistakes. Gives him better setups, and basically makes him a little more scary.

*InVeRs3*

01-06-2005, 10:32 PM

-No RC: if you use Ken he's not going to do good in certain matchups compared to if he had RC.

I'd rather pick Kyo over Ken in P anyday. They are very similar, both excel inside and sort of mixup orientated, but I personally think Kyo does better without the super than Ken, and Kyo does much more damage inside. I'd get Ken if he had a level 2 super.

popoblo

01-06-2005, 10:48 PM

Mickey D'

01-06-2005, 11:07 PM

Nah man thats Option selecting. #### thats the reason why I made this thread is so that people don't need to ask questions like that (repetitivness that SRK is FULL of).

Proxy parrying from what LTB and Nick T. told me is basically baiting your opponent to hit you on your recovery of your normal. Example: Sagat does s.lk, opponents Blanka tries to hit him with c.hp, Sagat parries.

From what I understand this is proxy parrying.

YMDSLTSAC

01-07-2005, 01:05 AM

sagat makes P cammy cry

Actually I think it's the other way around.

Sagat has so much more shit to worry about. Parries(both air and ground), spiral arrows, low jumps, and her retarded normals. The only thing saving his ass is his lk(which a smart Cammy can get around) and the damage he deals.

Cammy is like a mosquito with malaria.

YMDSLTSAC

01-07-2005, 01:36 AM

i don't think P-ken is too good at all. C/A/N ken are infinitely better IMO. just cuz some dude used him in SBO2 doesn't mean he's the new hotness or something. his other best grooves have RC and better ways to deal damage.

P-yama is very solid. but without a super, he has absolutely no reversal. so you NEED to be good at parrying up close against stupid stuff (ie sak's RC hurricane kicks, RC electricity, etc). he's golden at zoning, just make sure your opponent never gets in, but that's asking a whole lot.

LTB- i'm still working on the P-groove dream team we talked about at evo:karate:. and is proxy parrying what i think it is? just tapping forward before you hit your fierce or roundhouse in the hopes of getting a parry, then your normal hits, then you can cancel it into super?

peace

And I'd place P-Ken over P-Yama faster than you can say 'Ricky Ortiz plays for the other team'. You just said on the last page how important it is to have a character with an invincible dp.

Yama is already a pretty shitty character to begin with. Put him in P and I'm pretty sure that would qualify you as a masochist.

He's like a walking training dummy. He has crappy defense, no mobility, limited uses for his super(Hey, Yamazaki is pacing back and forth with a lv3. I know what I'll do, I'll JUMP at him!), and a so-so ground game.

Leezy

01-07-2005, 01:48 AM

YMDSLTSAC

01-07-2005, 02:14 AM

Actually his bnb isn't even safe on block or hit depending on who you are fighting against, and it pretty much resets the match outside of the corner.

What hella damage? He can't even conveniently combo into super.

Smart use of parries can apply to anyone. And what can Yamazaki do off a midrange parry? Roundhouse? 1200 damage, yeah thats hoss. Sweep? Have fun against safe falls.

And I'll say it again he has ZERO mobility. P-Yamazaki may very well be the least mobile character in the game. Hell, at least Chang can throw the gimp at you, and Zangief has a longer jump arc. Yamazaki has a mediocre walking speed, a short dash and a jump arc like Luc Longely.

That motherfucker needs strength shoes.

Leezy

01-07-2005, 02:31 AM

You act like you have to do a hella damaging combo after every parry...

Midrange you roundhouse them, do it twice and you've fucked with most people enough to make them second guess a lot of their attacks. Ducking forward, stomp, slap hits from pretty far away=hella damage and stun. Comboing into his supers is not what to look for. Anti-air or parry super are good options. I'd use him as a battery for Sagat and Cammy, his annoyingly simple combos do a lot of damage, no need to even use his super. P-groove is about the mind games more than anything, but you insist on arguing about the fundamentals.

You're convinced that he sucks, though, and I don't use him enough to keep defending him.

Ouroborus

01-07-2005, 07:42 AM

Actually I think it's the other way around.

Sagat has so much more shit to worry about. Parries(both air and ground), spiral arrows, low jumps, and her retarded normals. The only thing saving his ass is his lk(which a smart Cammy can get around) and the damage he deals.

Cammy is like a mosquito with malaria.

cammy's low jumps is not that great. its good but not good enough to revolve her game around it like vega or blanka's

spiral arrows gets tiger shot, dped on reaction, and c. fierced. and if not spaced right and gets blocked, goodbye cammy.

constant level 2's (or if you are in N or K groove, level 3s) and having a low hitting super just makes parrying sagats's jump ins that much riskier.

yama is wayyy better than ken in P groove. parry into sweep is better than anything that ken has.

MAGUS1234

01-07-2005, 10:13 AM

I really hate P-yama, i actually think he is pretty bad too.You have to fight at far range and he is so slow you can't play good footsies, jmk is one of his saviors though vs good players it will get DP'd.Parry don't help him at all, or as much as other characters would benifit.I would play P-rugal over him.
I think every P-team should have Cammy,Sakura,Vega.You've all said it your selves, P-grtooove is about ground game so you need the best footsies characters.Sagat is arguable, mai is good too

The Great Sephiroth

01-07-2005, 12:57 PM

Dude...if you parry hella good, Yamazaki is dope. Fool deals hella damage, and all his combos are safe if they're blocked. Pig raped me a few games at PSM with Yamazaki in P-groove, he's got way more potential then Ken. He's like a walking training dummy that you can't stop. His crappy defense is accounted for with smart use of parries, he's given mobility because of parries and small jumps, and has hella setups for his supers because of parries. If you're using P-groove well, you're obviously a smart player. This being the case, taking advantage of the groove's few pros should be easy.

I played Pigadoken's P-Yama as well; it's scary if he can get his parry setup game going. Sometimes he doesn't even need to move to do damage; people just walk right into his range. Even if they have moves that outprioritize Yama's moves, parry makes up for that shortcoming since he can bait them out. And IIRC he usually punishes parried far reaching normals with his far s.fp, which comes out in 7 frames, has nice range and can be cancelled into his Whip move for a 2-hit combo. Even if his s.fp gets blocked, the Whip usually pushes the other guy out of range to "reset" the match (though I'm not sure if he can be punished with a Level 3 super or something afterwards). I'm thinking runaway with people like Rolento, Mai, or Vega is his weakness due to his mobility (aside from usual anti-P people like A-Sak).

On a side note, I didn't know that there was a P-Ken user at SBO2... For those who saw it, how did he play him? Since the only P-Ken I've ever seen was pretty much Pigadoken's...

Legendary Gokou

01-07-2005, 05:04 PM

I think P Ken is good. Better than Yama if you ask me. Has a good punish combo from mid-range off a parry ( cr mk xx funky kick) and makes some matches a little more tolerable and not as RC dependent. I like him better as a user than a battery.

(THE) Geese

01-07-2005, 07:54 PM

Yama is good in any mode. I can't believe ppl are hating on him. He's got a great ground game. Most characters can't do anything to stop the simple shit like s. rh and jumpin forward. He's got a great anti-air in the c. fierce which beats pretty much anything under the sun that his s. strong doesn't. He doesn't NEED to move. He's a zoner/turtler. Why the fuck does he need mobility? Not all characters are made the same. Duh.

MAGUS1234

01-07-2005, 10:36 PM

RC Booms, RC funny kick,Vega slide, CAMMY!Rolento!!
you tell me why you don't need mobility.....jeez!

YMDSLTSAC

01-07-2005, 10:56 PM

cammy's low jumps is not that great. its good but not good enough to revolve her game around it like vega or blanka's

spiral arrows gets tiger shot, dped on reaction, and c. fierced. and if not spaced right and gets blocked, goodbye cammy.

constant level 2's (or if you are in N or K groove, level 3s) and having a low hitting super just makes parrying sagats's jump ins that much riskier.

yama is wayyy better than ken in P groove. parry into sweep is better than anything that ken has.

If Cammy has meter and you whiff a fierce in anticipation of a spiral arrow = half-life. If Cammy has meter and you tiger-shot in anticipation of a spiral arrow, Cammy jumps or low jumps = half-life(more if its a regular jump), the change machine takes your dollar and your girlfriend tells you she needs some time off all in the same day. Now granted these are all variables but if you notice risk vs. reward is heavily in Cammy' favor. Also you have to worry about an overzealous Cammy who likes to jump-in and parry your tiger uppercuts. An experienced Cammy will seldom try this but it's one more thing Sagat has to think about; now he has to mix-up his anti-airs. And if players had the ability to dp every cannon spiral on reaction, then I don't think we'd ever see people jump in CvS2. Because I can tell you it's easier to dp a jump-in everytime than a well spaced spiral arrow.

Also, Cammy has absolutely no need to parry jump-ins. She has cr.fierce,st.cl.rh(for crossups), cannon spike and targeto bureeh super. In fact you really should not parry jump-ins with anyone in p-groove, IMO, with maybe a few exceptions.

Which is why I think P-Yama is so shitty, because without super, which will be often, you are basically forced to parry your way out of shitty situations, and 9 out of 10 Yamazaki' offensive options don't even justify it. See in C and N he has these nifty things called alpha counters, rolls and supers to keep people from capitalizing on his so-so anti-air game, get from from a to b, and to keep people away from him. Because really inside of his rh range he doesn't have a whole lot else.

As far as P-Ken, P-Yama, you mean to tell me that parry into sweep is better than parry into super?

Legendary Gokou

01-08-2005, 12:31 AM

Ouroborus

01-08-2005, 01:42 AM

If Cammy has meter and you whiff a fierce in anticipation of a spiral arrow = half-life. If Cammy has meter and you tiger-shot in anticipation of a spiral arrow, Cammy jumps or low jumps = half-life(more if its a regular jump), the change machine takes your dollar and your girlfriend tells you she needs some time off all in the same day. Now granted these are all variables but if you notice risk vs. reward is heavily in Cammy' favor. Also you have to worry about an overzealous Cammy who likes to jump-in and parry your tiger uppercuts. An experienced Cammy will seldom try this but it's one more thing Sagat has to think about; now he has to mix-up his anti-airs. And if players had the ability to dp every cannon spiral on reaction, then I don't think we'd ever see people jump in CvS2. Because I can tell you it's easier to dp a jump-in everytime than a well spaced spiral arrow.

Also, Cammy has absolutely no need to parry jump-ins. She has cr.fierce,st.cl.rh(for crossups), cannon spike and targeto bureeh super. In fact you really should not parry jump-ins with anyone in p-groove, IMO, with maybe a few exceptions.

Which is why I think P-Yama is so shitty, because without super, which will be often, you are basically forced to parry your way out of shitty situations, and 9 out of 10 Yamazaki' offensive options don't even justify it. See in C and N he has these nifty things called alpha counters, rolls and supers to keep people from capitalizing on his so-so anti-air game, get from from a to b, and to keep people away from him. Because really inside of his rh range he doesn't have a whole lot else.

As far as P-Ken, P-Yama, you mean to tell me that parry into sweep is better than parry into super?

You act like P-Cammy always comes with free meter. you dont tiger shot in anticipation of a spiral arrow, you zone her out with it.

theres a range where cammy can pretty much do nothing except parry her way in. i think the range is about Sagat's standing lk distance. if she tries to rh, she'll get hit by his lks, if she tries to walk back and forth (jiggling the stick), standing hp, or cannon drill, she'll get hit by tiger shots, and if she jumps, she gets tiger uppercutted every time, her jump ins are easy as fuck to dp due to the lack of a downward angle.

this tactic alone made rolling groove cammy's ineffective vs Sagat.

okay, i still dont see how the risk/reward is in cammy's favor. cammy has too much shit to worry about. since sagat, gets level 2's every 5 seconds, which does more than Cammy's level 3 most of the time and has more uses, that alone puts the risk/reward in sagat's favor.

cammy cant jump in, sagat controls the ground and her standing rh has tons of lag at the end.

then theres the fact that sagat does more, takes less, and usually in a groove where he gets damage bonus when hes charged up.

Rocky Dean

01-08-2005, 01:50 AM

Why is no one talking about P-Geese? Next to Cammy/Rolento/Kyo, P-geese is the best p-groove character IMO. In the second postion (which is where i would place him) option select jab's for parries into c.RH (or level 3). Also using s.RH correctly is damn good parry set-up.

YMDSLTSAC

01-08-2005, 07:54 AM

Parry into sweep with Yama .... I can sort of understand where you're going with that. Its not that good. Now if he had RC then I would go for the knockdown. Then you can mix up after meaty cr forwards, RC command grabs and the like. If you're just going to zone like you imply you will, then you only reset the match. Ken getting the knockdown is much better since he can land damaging combos that stun (as well as take off a chunk of guard meter) very well.

A lot of people think Ken is all about level 2 cancels and RC's. Many will disagree, but I think he's solid even without them. He has good pokes, you just have to know when to use them.

Exactly.

Ken has way more going for him than RC's and level 2 cancels. RC and level 2 cancels aren't what make him good they are what make him real good. Even without those things though, he's damn solid. I feel like people have to play with Ken for a while to truly see this.

Yamazaki' sweep is better than Ken', true, but Ken has way more options after his than Yamazaki does, simply because his is bufferable.

Also I feel Rc'ing kind of fucked over Yamazaki slightly. It made his standing roundhouse(the best thing going for him) less dominating.

YMDSLTSAC

01-08-2005, 08:20 AM

You act like P-Cammy always comes with free meter. you dont tiger shot in anticipation of a spiral arrow, you zone her out with it.

theres a range where cammy can pretty much do nothing except parry her way in. i think the range is about Sagat's standing lk distance. if she tries to rh, she'll get hit by his lks, if she tries to walk back and forth (jiggling the stick), standing hp, or cannon drill, she'll get hit by tiger shots, and if she jumps, she gets tiger uppercutted every time, her jump ins are easy as fuck to dp due to the lack of a downward angle.

this tactic alone made rolling groove cammy's ineffective vs Sagat.

okay, i still dont see how the risk/reward is in cammy's favor. cammy has too much shit to worry about. since sagat, gets level 2's every 5 seconds, which does more than Cammy's level 3 most of the time and has more uses, that alone puts the risk/reward in sagat's favor.

cammy cant jump in, sagat controls the ground and her standing rh has tons of lag at the end.

then theres the fact that sagat does more, takes less, and usually in a groove where he gets damage bonus when hes charged up.

And I'm saying while zoning her out with tiger shots she happens to jump you are losing a lot of life. Another thing, yes Cammy doesn't get free meter, but have you seen how fast her cr.strong is? That thing is like a jab that builds meter.

Don't look at Cammy so linearly. She has more than hp, roundhouse and spiral arrow. She has st.strong(which can be buffered into spiral arrow), st.foward, cr.strong and cr.foward. She also has a really good dash that hops over low attacks and can setup some pretty gay mixups. Also Cammy makes arguably the best use of option select parries, so mashing on lk, like many Sagats like to do can be dangerous too.

So Cammy getting in is not that big of a problem. That bitch gets in like ladies night at The Touchdown cafe.

Now one thing I will agree with is that Sagat does do a lot more damage, and Cammy stuns easily so that's one thing one eye has over her but IMO that is the only thing he has over her.

Mickey D'

03-04-2005, 10:11 PM

WOAH shit, i totally forgot about this thread!

Rocky dean you live in LExington ain't that where popoblo plays? You two should play!

Mickey D'

03-05-2005, 03:42 PM

- Kyo is the hardest hitting, but the hardest to use. He has a gang of counter hit set ups, throw set ups, and baits for parries, and crazy super damage.

- About 2 out of 3 parry's you get with Kyo will lead into either a very hard hitting combo, or a knockdown (leading to mixups). He has the hardest hitting non super combos in the game. Therefore one parry could lead into 4000 damage without a super.

- Kyo's mixups are just so powerfull, But you have to practice him so much to be really good.

-Kyo has tons of ways to land his super. Basically, Kyo's low jump makes his mixups even more deceptive. Add a parry which you don't really need, just as a bonus. His mixups after a knockdown, or off of his shorts are really powerfull.

- Kyo is very hard to use since he is so technical.

- A lot of the time Kyo can be very inconsistent.

Mickey D'

03-05-2005, 03:56 PM

- After parries, Sagat can land some HUGE damage. Because of long hard hitting pokes like: s.hp, c.hp and c.mk, Sagat can land his super off of about 90% of ground parries.

- He deals good damage off of normals per opening and he has almost every situation covered - anti airs, footsies, combos, and long projectile games. A few parries and you can take fools out.

- There doesn't seem to be any overwhelmingly bad match ups for P Sagat if you yourself are skilled and have a plan.

- Sagat does better over all against more characters. Partly because of his ability to easily parry into super, and the fact that he has a DP.

- P groove Sagat is very immobile. Every other sagat gets in by running or rolling. P has neither so when you look at it like that you'll see why people think p sagat is immobile. He has none of the options to get in fast.

- Add to that fact he has some really annoying match ups (especially in P), and he doesen't have the super every 30 seconds. This all makes using P groove Sagat a lot harder then P Cammy.

Mickey D'

03-05-2005, 04:04 PM

- He is very mobile, has high priority. After any ground parry, he can almost always hit someone with: c.hp, c.hk, slide.

- Blanka benefits heavily from low jump. It gives him more mix up games to play around with. Not to mention the mean lj+hk.

- Blanka is just so strong in other areas. The reason why Blanka is good in P groove is mainly because he is a solid character.

- Use mixups into super, not parry into super.

- For people who like to cheap CC you, Blanka has quite a few CC escape options too that are really easy to do (kkk hop)

- With the short jump he has some really good setups into his super, but the thing about blanka is that he really doesen't need to use his super to win. Thats one of the attributes of a good P character.

- With parries blankas ground control becomes even more annoying than it already is with somethin as simple as parry > fierce. Just doing parry into low hk will get you free set ups. Add those low jumps and constant threat of a level 3, empty low jump combo/throw...they all add up to make P Blanka one scary character

- P groove Blanka doesn't seem to benefit from parry as well as many other characters.

Mickey D'

03-05-2005, 04:12 PM

- P groove Vega is pretty tough to get by he controls so much space with his normals. Add this and parry together, you've got a character who can zone you out the whole match.

- Vega doesn't do to much damage per opening. However he still controls the ground.

- Much like Blanka, if Sakura activates, you can kkk hop with Vega and be able to punish her as she comes down from the shoryuken (or avoid the hk's in the beginning).

- In P groove, Vega gains the ability of low jump. Vega's low jump sets up so many mixups to take advantage of the match.

- Vega's game mainly consists of poking and zoning your opponent. However add on parry and low jump, Vega now has the ability of rushing as well as controlling the ground.

popoblo

03-06-2005, 01:29 PM

WOAH shit, i totally forgot about this thread!

Rocky dean you live in LExington ain't that where popoblo plays? You two should play!

lol, we've played probably 2 or 3 times before for whatever reason. thanks for looking out for me though.

peace

Mickey D'

03-06-2005, 03:29 PM

lol, we've played probably 2 or 3 times before for whatever reason. thanks for looking out for me though.

peace

Heh, no problem.

I don't know if anyone noticed but I updated hella on everything from characters to main strategey. I would make a Rolento one but it would mainly consist of my own stuff being that he wasn't talked about to much in the p groove threads.

Mickey D'

03-07-2005, 10:36 PM

I edited the "P groove tips" section adding the definition of "Proxy Parrying."

This from what I know from what Nick T, as well as LTB has told me what proxy parrying is. If anyone has some sort of adding they'd like me to put, I'd be more then willing to do so.

Ranevski

03-08-2005, 12:08 AM

This is a question I've had in my head for ages (years even) that I haven't got a satisfactory answer for yet;

I keep hearing about how sparingly you should use your parry. At first I thought this was just to get the message across to noobs that you shouldn't be trying to parry EVERY SINGLE ATTACK. As time progressed though I kept hearing how parry should be used only once in a blue moon, NOT incorporated into any patterns/setups/whatnot.

If this is true then why on earth would you use P over K or C? If you strip P of Parry then C has every advantage on it bar small jump, which in no way makes up for the plethora of benifits that C has. Same deal with K except it's dash that you lose, and again K easily makes up for it with what it does have.

So if Parry is to be used to sparingly, then why should I play P? (This is a serious question to people that play P, it is not meant to come off as 'P is teh sux, what noob uses it when you can have A-Blanka/Sak/Bison?!')

Mickey D'

03-08-2005, 01:06 PM

As posted in my 2nd post "P groove essentials"

- If you almost never parry, then the enemy won't be looking for it as much. Then maybe you can get one important one that can win you the match. Good players hardly parry at all. Thats why the one chance they get a parry they make it something that defines the winner of a match.

- In a match your working on your ground game, footsies, and patience. Then, throughout the match your getting the enemy to think a certain way so you can get that one critical parry to win.

Ranevski

03-08-2005, 05:02 PM

So you're saying P-Groove is all about using one critical parry to win the match for you? That sounds pretty inconsistent... you aren't always going to have a moment in the match when one parry can change everything. Even rushdown style players will learn to play it safe and against turtles, well then you won't ever get your chance if they're that good. I still think parry should be used more liberally then all the hype about 'saving it for that moment' like it's your meter. There is no limit to how many parries you can do in a match, so you may as well use them whenever possible.

I think the real trick is learing how to use parries, instead of just learning how to parry.

Legendary Gokou

03-08-2005, 05:45 PM

The more parries you use the more the opponent will be forced to use different attacking patterns on you. If you don't parry as much you can read the attacking patterns and punish them really hard if you select the right time to parry as opposed to parrying whatever you can parry.

It mainly shifts onto whether or not it was really worth it. If you hadn't parried, could you have had another way to respond to the opponent's attack? Would the parry have gotten the knockdown and given you the mixup you needed to do big damage? Would you have been guard crushed had you not parried?

Don't parry if you cannot capitalize off it enough to make the opponent worried about attacking you. When you get them in that state, thats when you bring on the pressure.

Ranevski

03-08-2005, 07:05 PM

Don't parry if you cannot capitalize off it enough to make the opponent worried about attacking you. When you get them in that state, thats when you bring on the pressure.

This is what I'm talking about when I say that it's all about learning how to utilise parries properly. You shouldn't be trying to parry everything like it's your replacement for a guard bar. However you should be trying to parry anything that you can capitalise off. Honestly I just don't believe in the 'lure them into a false sense of security with their attack patterns' idea. Good players won't do the same mixup twice, that would defeat the purpose of it being a mixup.

Legendary Gokou

03-08-2005, 07:25 PM

Good players won't do the same mixup twice, that would defeat the purpose of it being a mixup.

I think thats partially true. There's no reason for A-Blanka to NOT RC Blanka Ball on P-Ryu all day if the P-Ryu cannot parry it or level 3 it.

Mickey D'

03-08-2005, 11:17 PM

P groove is definitely more advanced then the other grooves. I'm not saying this just because I use P groove, but IMO good P groove players need more extensive knowledge then the A/K groove users. They must find ways to setup parries, and they must find ways to manipulate their opponents thinking.

Parry only if you know the outcome will be good. Parries should be done once in a blue moon because like LG said, it forces your opponent to mixup. However as you said before, good players will always mixup.

This is true for the most part, however there are some things that no one can avoid making a pattern. In example a sloppy GC/pressure string can lead into a parry into big damage.

Not parrying much will also give the opponent the idea that your not going to parry during the match. Therefore with that in their mind, they won't be as careful as they should be attacking you.

However if you ARE parrying things like on wakeup/jumpins, people will begin to change their game accordingly (IE throwing on wake up, attacking mid on wake up, empty jump to throw, etc.)

Parrying is used rarely, however it shouldn't limit P groove's potential at all. You don't always need that "one critical parry." There will be other instances where you can parry into big damage. All in all, parrying is only usefull when you can use it to it's fullest potential.