How did Gill survive the Raging Demon again? [Archive]

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Daemos

01-17-2005, 12:36 AM

How could his Resurrection move even work if his soul was supposedly taken to hell? If it's because Gill's a demigod and his soul is "different", then wouldn't it be fair to say that Bison could've survived because his soul is "different"?

TempestFox

01-17-2005, 01:13 AM

Because Capcom said so.

TAS

01-17-2005, 02:01 AM

How could his Resurrection move even work if his soul was supposedly taken to hell?

His soul was NOT sent to hell, like Bison's soul.

One of Gill's abilities prevented his soul from being sent to hell, however it wasnt his ressurection technique. The Illuminati has a number of secret techniques according to Capcom, we only saw some of the ones Gill knows in SF3.

If it's because Gill's a demigod and his soul is "different"

Gill isnt demigod, he was born a normal human. Its the secret techniques ot the Illuminati that make him powerful.

then wouldn't it be fair to say that Bison could've survived because his soul is "different"?

No, because its officialy part of the canon that Bison's soul is in hell, there's no way to get around or change that, specialy since Capcom dosnt EVER want to go back and change anything they established in the All About books.

mohammeda1i

01-17-2005, 08:33 AM

wouldn't it be fair to say that Bison could've survived because his soul is "different"?

One thing people forget about the Raging Demon is that it is the sins of the victim that send it to hell (those demons). When Gen was atacked by the Raging Demon he apparently cleared his mind, spirit and heart so that he wouldn't be effected. Bison on the other hand clearly didn't and so he was sent to hell. It is possible that Gill cleared his mind etc as well.

Mohammed Ali

Cho

01-17-2005, 09:36 AM

Or another (my) theory:

Bison always knew what he was doing was Evil or Wrong and enjoyed it as such. "I will destroy you with fear itself, gwoooooooo." So, being taken to hell and confronting his demons was just too much for him because he was ALL evil. There was just nothing good about him.

While Gill may consider what he's doing as completely right, that he hasn't sinned in any way shape or form and so he had few or no demons to face when Akuma used the move on him. So the move just didn't effect him.

As for Gen, well, as it was said, he was a "true" martial artist and could clear the mind and such.

That's my own personal take on the matter anyway.

---

As a personal note I never "liked" Bison much after Capcom decided he relied on an outer power such as The Phycho Drive or whatever it was. Akuma is a powerful bastard (weather you consider him evil is dependant on if you think its okay to kill someone in a fight and consider it the proper show of power or not) but at least all his power is his and under his full control. To me at least, means I would fear and respect Akuma far more then Bison. Or maybe I just saw Bison die at the end of SFA3 too much.

Time_Stop

01-17-2005, 09:41 AM

One of Gill's abilities prevented his soul from being sent to hell

Prove it.

Sano

01-17-2005, 12:22 PM

There's no proof that Gouki vs. Gill actually happened. The game shows you what would of happened if they fought, it may or may not of actually happened. It's there for Game Playing purposes, so you can fight Gouki/Shin Gouki once again and reminesce the ol' Gouki fight of the SF2 days, or the current Alpha/Zero games or whatever. Note that Gouki does come out and kill Vega(Cape) in SF2, but chances are it was after Vega lost to ____.

From the Street Fighter Plot Canon Guide Version 4.1 -

"Gill is also shown to be powerful enough to withstand the Shungokusatsu in Second Impanct. Although the event may or may not have happened in the official canon storyline, it's demonstrated in the SF3 Second Impact Shin Akuma ending that he can live through it."

Gouki fighting Gill seems iffy that it actually happened. For you to get the ending where Gill ressurects, Gouki has to fight the person challenging Gill at the time which was officially Alex AND loose the first few rounds, come back as 'Shin Gouki' (AKA not holding back) and... LOOSE AGAIN!!! And there is no evidence of an Alex/Gouki meeting and if they actually fought it would last a split second with Alex dead, in a coma, or just knocked the F**** out. Of course Gill vs. Gouki could of happened after Alex and Gill fought, but since that already happened in SF2, it seems hella repetitive for Capcom to state Gouki attacked the final boss after everyone left once again IMHO.

We'll see how Udon handles this in a couple of years. And in response to that other SF3 Thread currently on this page - YES, in a couple of years. Patience.

bill_rizer

01-17-2005, 01:46 PM

so is gill the main man then? meaning if bison was alive he would be able to beat him? and what about urien? it sounds like akuma is the wildcard that has been thrown into it but if all akuma has is that finshing move and it cant beat gill hasnt he met his match?
and its not ryu?
Can akuma actually die? i know cvs2 is not in the same world as such but you've all seen his ending right? shin akuma cant be killed in that is it the same in SF.

TAS

01-17-2005, 03:44 PM

One thing people forget about the Raging Demon is that it is the sins of the victim that send it to hell (those demons). When Gen was atacked by the Raging Demon he apparently cleared his mind, spirit and heart so that he wouldn't be effected. Bison on the other hand clearly didn't and so he was sent to hell. It is possible that Gill cleared his mind etc as well.

Gill didnt clear his mind, he clearly fell and died, unlike Gen who just stood there.

Bison always knew what he was doing was Evil or Wrong and enjoyed it as such. "I will destroy you with fear itself, gwoooooooo." So, being taken to hell and confronting his demons was just too much for him because he was ALL evil. There was just nothing good about him.

Rose was part of Bison's soul, she was good, the Shun Goku Satsu sends the victim's soul to hell REGARDLESS of if they were worthy of entering heaven or not.

While Gill may consider what he's doing as completely right, that he hasn't sinned in any way shape or form and so he had few or no demons to face when Akuma used the move on him. So the move just didn't effect him.

It dosnt work like that.

Prove it.

Direct answer I got from Capcom of Japan.

Now you prove that I didnt, which is impossible, but always know I can always act like a bigger ass then you can, and make you look dumber then everyone here already thinks you are.

There's no proof that Gouki vs. Gill actually happened. The game shows you what would of happened if they fought, it may or may not of actually happened. It's there for Game Playing purposes, so you can fight Gouki/Shin Gouki once again and reminesce the ol' Gouki fight of the SF2 days, or the current Alpha/Zero games or whatever. Note that Gouki does come out and kill Vega(Cape) in SF2, but chances are it was after Vega lost to ____.

From the Street Fighter Plot Canon Guide Version 4.1 -

"Gill is also shown to be powerful enough to withstand the Shungokusatsu in Second Impanct. Although the event may or may not have happened in the official canon storyline, it's demonstrated in the SF3 Second Impact Shin Akuma ending that he can live through it."

Gouki fighting Gill seems iffy that it actually happened. For you to get the ending where Gill ressurects, Gouki has to fight the person challenging Gill at the time which was officially Alex AND loose the first few rounds, come back as 'Shin Gouki' (AKA not holding back) and... LOOSE AGAIN!!! And there is no evidence of an Alex/Gouki meeting and if they actually fought it would last a split second with Alex dead, in a coma, or just knocked the F**** out. Of course Gill vs. Gouki could of happened after Alex and Gill fought, but since that already happened in SF2, it seems hella repetitive for Capcom to state Gouki attacked the final boss after everyone left once again IMHO.

We'll see how Udon handles this in a couple of years. And in response to that other SF3 Thread currently on this page - YES, in a couple of years. Patience.

Thats true, and I never thought to ask about if that happend or not, although I did find out from Capcom that Gill cant be killed in any way unless his powers are weakened or removed (something that comes up in one of the SF4 plots they have)

(the next time I visit CoJ you guys are [Tiamat, Sano, Saiki, etc] are gonna have to give me a list of stuff to ask about incase I forget)

so is gill the main man then? meaning if bison was alive he would be able to beat him?

If you're refering to "Could Gill beat Bison?" then yes, fairly easily I might add given Gill's powers, plus its canon that Gill was a great fighter even without his powers as he beat Alex's mentor Tom in a fair fight that left Tom hospitalized, but then Alex managed to beat Gill.

and what about urien?

Urien is powerful, but not near as powerful as Gill. Urien's power level is very questionable.

gill hasnt he met his match?

Well Capcom kinda made the mistake of making Gill a little too powerful, and one of their storyline plans for SF4 involves him being weakened.

and its not ryu?

Ryu post Oro training will no doubt be a serious force to be reckoned with, and will no dout finally be on Akuma's level for once.

bill_rizer

01-17-2005, 04:35 PM

Yes thats what i meant if gill could beat up bison i guess he can.
Yea i kinda thought gill was a bit too powerful since he can walk all over shin akuma who was top dog after ST.
I dunno how capcom goin bring him down a level or two since he has that reseruction thing.
i guess the main contenders are akuma/ryu/alex?/urien too bring him down unless some new characters are added.
Yea i guess capcom will have a headache sorting out the story to plz everone since i figure this would be the last SF.
nxt time u go capcom ask them if their thinking of adding new characters or just redesigning characters in a older form perhaps.

TAS

01-17-2005, 06:29 PM

Yea i kinda thought gill was a bit too powerful since he can walk all over shin akuma who was top dog after ST.

Fans in Japan were complaining about the fact that Akuma had been the most powerful character for too long, so when SF3 rolled around they came up with two chars who rivaled Akuma's power, Gill and Oro.

I dunno how capcom goin bring him down a level or two since he has that reseruction thing.
i guess the main contenders are akuma/ryu/alex?/urien too bring him down unless some new characters are added.

One of Capcom's SF4 plots involves someone from within The Illuminati depowering Gill and brining fourth the Apocalypse. Then a tournament is held to decided the fate of mankind.

nxt time u go capcom ask them if their thinking of adding new characters or just redesigning characters in a older form perhaps.

They were telling me one of two things would happen, either Ryu would be the only returning character, or 1/4 to 1/2 of the cast would be returning characters, and Ryu would be the only pre-SF3 character, ie character designed before SF3, to return (so dont expect anyone from the SF1, SFA, or SF2 cast, aside from Ryu to return)

Also SF4 will take place around whatever year its released to expect the returning chars to look diffrient sicne SF3 took place in 1999.

bill_rizer

01-17-2005, 07:26 PM

They were telling me one of two things would happen, either Ryu would be the only returning character, or 1/4 to 1/2 of the cast would be returning characters, and Ryu would be the only pre-SF3 character, ie character designed before SF3, to return (so dont expect anyone from the SF1, SFA, or SF2 cast, aside from Ryu to return.

hmm i dunno what to make of that just ryu out of the orginals (scracths head) no akuma?, no ken? no sagat? i can understand the others like chun li etc but those guys i thoughtd they'd be in their, yea i can see them leaving out ken, but for me he would still have to be in ryus life its his best bud so maybe throw him in a ending.
I guess sagat never got any stronger or just gave up trying to match ryu.
And akuma i know they problay didnt give you answers for this but if they left him out would it be gill or ryu-oro that killed him? unless their including him as a 3s character in which case he could appear.
hmm yea if this game sees the light of day im going to be very interested in what roster they come up with.

Sano

01-17-2005, 08:40 PM

Thats true, and I never thought to ask about if that happend or not, although I did find out from Capcom that Gill cant be killed in any way unless his powers are weakened or removed (something that comes up in one of the SF4 plots they have)

(the next time I visit CoJ you guys are [Tiamat, Sano, Saiki, etc] are gonna have to give me a list of stuff to ask about incase I forget)

Yeah, that's how I saw it, Gill could survive the Shungokusatsu as the game indicates, not sure if the fight itself happens though.

Definitly let us know when you're going to talk to Capcom of Japan. I'll think up questions when the time comes.

Daemos

01-19-2005, 08:17 AM

If you're refering to "Could Gill beat Bison?" then yes, fairly easily I might add given Gill's powers, plus its canon that Gill was a great fighter even without his powers as he beat Alex's mentor Tom in a fair fight that left Tom hospitalized, but then Alex managed to beat Gill.

I doubt Gill can beat Bison fairly easily, especially if he is fighting SFA3 Bison (in his most powerful form). Bison is pretty darn powerful, in fact the main reason Akuma was able to beat and supposedly kill Bison was because Bison was weaker in SF2 and weakened after the fight (since Akuma most likely attacked Bison AFTER Bison lost to the winner of SF2, whomever that is).

The only thing Gill has got going for him is his resurrect ability, which makes him possible to beat but impossible to kill.

I still would like to point out that the effects of the raging demon could differ on Bison than on others because his soul is immortal and has transcended humanity; Evil never dies.

TAS

01-19-2005, 09:05 AM

I doubt Gill can beat Bison fairly easily, especially if he is fighting SFA3 Bison (in his most powerful form). Bison is pretty darn powerful, in fact the main reason Akuma was able to beat and supposedly kill Bison was because Bison was weaker in SF2 and weakened after the fight (since Akuma most likely attacked Bison AFTER Bison lost to the winner of SF2, whomever that is).

The only thing Gill has got going for him is his resurrect ability, which makes him possible to beat but impossible to kill.

Actually if the two fought without using their powers Im sure Gill would kick his ass. There's nothing in the canon, or games that shows or proves Bison is actually a great fighter, only that he's powerful, however there are at least two instances with Gill that I can think of that shows how great of a fighter he is.

I still would like to point out that the effects of the raging demon could differ on Bison than on others because his soul is immortal and has transcended humanity; Evil never dies.

No, his soul is in hell, its a canon fact, plus I was even talking to Capcom about it.

The only way it seems plausable for Bison to come back would be if Akuma died, because then there's the good chance that the powers of the Shun Goku Satsu would die with him, thus freeing those souls from hell who are worthy of entering heaven, although Bison's soul being good and bad (Bison+Rose) would most likely get stuck on Earth, between the planes of Heaven & Hell.

Donkus

01-19-2005, 09:48 AM

Sano

01-19-2005, 10:04 AM

Too bad we won't see Gill's 3rd strike ending coming true anytime soon. That would be a great excuse to stop using all old characters as they should have done in SF3.

Seems like Capcom has forgotten about Ryu vs Sagat for SF4? I guess there would be no point anymore if Ryu has trained under Oro, he would be too strong for Sagat.

I don't know if Capcom has forgotten about it but they'll never settle it I don't think. They have an Eternal Rivalry. Fans of Anime and Manga know what I'm talking about. Eternal Rivalries are never settled even though sometimes you can tell who's stronger.

Kyo vs. Iori - King of Fighters. A winner is never declared.
Sol Badguy vs. Ky Kiske - Guilty Gear. See above.
Goku vs. Vegeta - Dragon Ball. They both have cheap wins over the other, just like Ryu vs. Sagat. The first time Gohan jumped in, the second time Majin Vegeta cheap shotted Goku with a chop to the neck when he wasn't looking. DB GT is unnoficial since it wasn't made by Toriyama, but even then Goku is disqualified from the Tourney they are supposed to fight in so the rematch never happens.
Saito Hajime vs. Himura Kenshin - This was never settled. Something happened to interupt both times they fought. In the Manga and The Director's cut of Rurouni Kenshin reflection, Saito remarks how he no longer wishes to fight Kenshin because he wanted to fight the Battosai and that won't happen. In the director's cut he says, "The Battosai is dead. I'm still alive. I win. What a boring victory." :rofl: Saito rules!

OT Note - Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin stated if the two fought Saito would win. But if kenshin had something to protect in the fight like Kaoru, he would win.

These are the best Eternal Rivalries I could think of for the time being.

TAS

01-19-2005, 10:53 AM

Usualy rivalries arent settled due it being obvious or to not upset fans, or leave something to the fans imagination.

Although it reminds me that Sagat wants to fight the Ryu that gave him the scar, but he dosnt know that is SNH Ryu, although if he found that out I dont think he'd wanna fight SNH Ryu, cause that isnt Ryu's true self, so Sagat could come to the relization that thre is no point trying to get revenge (or whatever) over his scar, but could still want to challenge Ryu to a great fight.

Although as far along as SF4 would be in the timeline its doubtful the fight would ever happen, as Sagat would just be incredibly old.

danomyte

01-19-2005, 10:55 AM

maybe when gill was sent to hell scared the devil & tricked him to sending him back since he looks like Jesus?

iet me be the blesser of all souls!

++chip damage kills shin akuma & shin bison++ :cool:

bill_rizer

01-19-2005, 12:15 PM

Kataklysmic

01-19-2005, 01:21 PM

Although as far along as SF4 would be in the timeline its doubtful the fight would ever happen, as Sagat would just be incredibly old.

Heihachi Mishima anyone?

TAS

01-19-2005, 01:31 PM

Heihachi Mishima anyone?

He'd be ODLDER then Heihachi by the time SF4 roles around.

Time_Stop

01-19-2005, 01:43 PM

Direct answer I got from Capcom of Japan.

And i called Shinkiro and he told me Vega loves Blanka. Hey, you can´t prove it he didn´t!

The truth is, you don´t have any solid backing up for most of the stuff you say. You constantly mentions "facts" that never happen and are never proven. You say Capcom is working in this or that game, then we get something else. The years pass without the games you mentioned ever showing up.

What a waste of time. :rolleyes:

TAS

01-19-2005, 01:55 PM

The truth is, you don´t have any solid backing up for most of the stuff you say. You constantly mentions "facts" that never happen and are never proven. You say Capcom is working in this or that game, then we get something else. The years pass without the games you mentioned ever showing up.

And you have proof of this? No.

Just cause you act like a jack ass and have some jealous issues with me, isnt going to help anything, or help people forget the fact that you're an ass.

Also Id like to know what games specificly I talked about that Capcom was working on that never came out, alhtough being the ass you're who just likes to talk a bunch a shit I doubt you'll be able to prove what you say.

Oh and "years pass" you've been here one year jack ass, so what would you know.

Also...

"The next all new SF game will is being planned for 2007-2008 at the earliest to celebrate SF's 20th Anniversay"

There's some proof for you fucktard.

And dont get all pissy and bent out of shape with me just I make you look like a "genius" on these forums.

mohammeda1i

01-19-2005, 02:32 PM

He'd be ODLDER then Heihachi by the time SF4 roles around.

No. Even if SF4 comes out in 2027 instead of 2007, Heihachi would STILL be older. On top of this, Heihachis father who is in Tekken 5 is much older than even that :wow: :wow: :wow:

For those that want to know, Sagat would be in his early 50s when SF4 is released (assuming it is released in 2007/8).

Mohammed Ali

Sagatryu

01-19-2005, 03:43 PM

Street fighter ages in 2007

Akuma

Age 57

Balrog

Age 38

Blanka

Age 41

Cammy

Age 33

CHUN-LI

Age 39

Dan

Age 52

Dee Jay

Age 42

DHALSIM

Age 55

EDMOND HONDA

Age 47

FEI LONG

Age 38

GUILE

Age 47

Hugo

Age 43

JULI

Age 33

Juni

Age 33

KARIN KANZUKI

Age 33

KEN MASTERS

Age 42

Oro

Age 159

Ryu

Age 43

Sagat

Age 52

SAKURA KASUGANO

Age 33

T. HAWK

age 48

VEGA

Age 40

ZANGIEF

Age 51

Adon

Age 45

Cody

Age 42

Guy

Age 44

Mike Haggar

Age 66

Tekken Ages in 2007

Craig Marduk

Age 31

Marshall Law

Age 51

Hwoarang

Age 24

King

Age 33

Asuka Kazama

Age 20

Feng Wei

Age 29

Christie Monteiro

Age 22

Paul Phoenix

Age 51

Anna Williams

Age 25

Baek Doo San

Age 51

Lei Wulong

Age 50

Nina Williams

Age 27

Steve Fox

Age 24

Kazuya Mishima

Age 52

Ling Xiaoyu

Age 21

Jin Kazama

Age 24

Lee Chaolan

Age 51

Julia Chang

Age 23

Bryan Fury

Age 34

Heihachi Mishima

Age 78

Daemos

01-20-2005, 04:11 AM

@TAS

Bison did defeat or beat up Gouken (or was it his master) and that was before the Psycho Drive. Bison's lifelong ambition (other than world domination) is to be honored as the greatest fighter of all time, he couldn't achieve that with psycho power alone - weilding such strength requires skill and relentlessness. Gradually of course, Bison did start relying on his Psycho Power too much which inevitably lead to his destruction, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a fighter within him.

There are other plausible ways of bringing Bison (although yours is good and I never thought of it before). One way is to have a part of his soul still alive in Rose (her body) wherever she is, which means Akuma only sent the part that was in his SF2 body. The one I prefer is that Bison's soul didn't go to hell to begin with, because he's not human - he bleeds psycho power for fuck's sake.

BloodRiotIori

01-20-2005, 04:41 AM

@TAS

Bison did defeat or beat up Gouken (or was it his master) and that was before the Psycho Drive.

uh? since when?

mohammeda1i

01-20-2005, 06:19 AM

Anna Williams

Age 25

Nina Williams

Age 27

Steve Fox

Age 24

:wow: :wow: :wow: I'm impressed by the list Sagatryu. Nice one :tup:

I think Nina and Anna are a lot older than that though (albeit because they were frozen for 20 years), as I don't think Nina gave birth to Steve at the age of 3 :confused:

Oh, and you put some numbers next to SF players in another thread. Where they also ages or something else?

uh? since when?

I think he meant Bison beat up his own master. This is true. In fact, he killed his own master (in combat I imagine).

Mohammed Ali

CrimsonSouls

01-20-2005, 06:34 AM

lol. I guess the CFE ending of Bison means nothing? Im serious.Not trying to dis anyone. But Bison easily beat the crap out of Gill in the ending. But Gill did use Resurection. This is a good thread. And I am impressed in your nolege TAS :tup:

ParryPerson

01-20-2005, 08:07 AM

look look look.

After reading this thread, I thought I might let you guys know.

I am a Capcom Developer!!!

And don't worry! The story will be fine! But every new char is going to be peices of sprites we already used, no way in hell are we making NEW ones! God damn! You guys are picky.

Also,

"SF4 Storyline: E.Honda becomes ruler of earth after the biggist upset in Street Fighter history, marrys Chun Li, because she's a gold digger, and wants her own chain of Tai Chi dojo's."

Cool huh.

Kuro

01-20-2005, 09:00 AM

Daemos

01-20-2005, 09:04 AM

@mohammedali

No I mean Gouken, Ryu and Ken's master.

taken from the SF plotguide:

According to Roland, the mook also stated that Vega/M. Bison once
visited Gouken, looking for the heir of Ansatsuken. In the process, Gouken
was thrashed (but not killed, of course). Besides mooks being generally
very trustworthy, originally, back during the times of SF2 coming out,
Vega/M. Bison was the one that killed Gouken. This later got retroactively
changed to Akuma doing it (probably when Akuma was designed). Most likely,
Capcom decided that, instead of entirely retroactively deleting it, to edit
it into Vega/M. Bison just beating the heck out of Gouken, instead (From
Saiki, again. I'm starting to feel a need to get more specific with citing
my sources...).

The CFE ending serves as a what if match. So IF Bison and Gill fought, it would result in Bison winning and Gill resurrecting. MWAAA HAAHAHAHAHA

Daemos

01-20-2005, 09:09 AM

Bison doesn't want to be the best fighter. I don't know where in the wide world of games you got that conclusion, but that just isn't true.

He wants to rule the world.

You obviously haven't played SFA3 for a while. Bison clearly states that he wants to be honored as the greatest fighter of all, that he wants his name and shadowlaw to echo for all eternity.

And yes, he wants to rule the world. :confused:

BTW, I admit that Bison most probably is in hell right now, but I also admit that there is a strong likelyhood that he will return in one shape or form, I'm merely speculating on a plausible explanation for why he COULD return.

mohammeda1i

01-20-2005, 09:59 AM

@mohammedali

No I mean Gouken, Ryu and Ken's master.

You're absolutly right. He beat Gouken in a fight. He also killed his own master. But this was all when he was really powerfull (i.e. SFA series).

I like your sig BTW :LOL:

Mohammed Ali

Skyler

01-20-2005, 10:29 AM

Maybe you're having a hard time understanding this...

Bison's soul is in hell. That's it. Done deal. Nothing's left.

And NO. Bison did not defeat Gouken or Goutetsu. Akuma did. Bison doesn't want to be the best fighter. I don't know where in the wide world of games you got that conclusion, but that just isn't true.

He wants to rule the world.

originally bison did defeated gouken, not akuma. capcom change the storyline to bison being a world dominator than a world champion. its in the tiamats street fighter bison story plot guide at fighters mania site.

tiamats quote
"According to Roland, the mook also stated that Vega/M. Bison once visited Gouken, looking for the heir of Ansatsuken. In the process, Gouken was thrashed (but not killed, of course). Besides mooks being generally very trustworthy, originally, back during the times of SF2 coming out,Vega/M. Bison was the one that killed Gouken. This later got retroactively
changed to Akuma doing it(probably when Akuma was designed). Most likely,Capcom decided that, instead of entirely retroactively deleting it, to editit into Vega/M. Bison just beating the heck out of Gouken, instead (FromSaiki, again. I'm starting to feel a need to get more specific with citing
my sources...)."

TAS

01-20-2005, 11:00 AM

Bison did defeat or beat up Gouken (or was it his master)

Bison never met Gouken, or his master Goutetsu.

I think he meant Bison beat up his own master. This is true. In fact, he killed his own master (in combat I imagine).

Yes, this is true, and I am currently tieing that in to this Bison Origin story Im writting.

One way is to have a part of his soul still alive in Rose (her body) wherever she is, which means Akuma only sent the part that was in his SF2 body.

Thats not possible since Rose's soul merged with Bison's soul at the end of SFA3, in Rose's body, then left the body to possess his SF2 body.

I always imagined that Rose's body was put in suspended animation somewhere. Of course Capcom had no actual answer for me when I asked them about what happend to Rose's body, then I said could it be she was frozen? And they told me that could be a good way of looking at it.

The one I prefer is that Bison's soul didn't go to hell to begin with, because he's not human - he bleeds psycho power for fuck's sake.

Bison was born human, its the powers he learned that made him seem beyond human.

Sano

01-20-2005, 12:54 PM

Vega (cape) did meet Gouken, Ryu and Ken's Master. Reread Daemos' Post. It's in the Plot Guide and comes from an old SF Mook. Rokiseph said so and he was around years ago talking to Saiki in an old Gamefaqs Thread that was one of the many precursors to the SF Plot Guide. Golden Dragon was there too, the only old schooler that still contributes to the Plot Guide regularly.

Sagatryu

01-20-2005, 01:00 PM

There's are ranking points in the other thread

rankings are from Here

http://www.action-figure.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=9878

Kataklysmic

01-20-2005, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by SF Eternal Challenge
"The next all new SF game will is being planned for 2007-2008 at the earliest to celebrate SF's 20th Anniversay"

Interesting. I read the exact same thing from a TGS interview posted at Gamespot a few years back (around SvC's debut). I just didn't think SF Eternal would be a source for that news as well.

LOL, is it just me, or are the first ones to deny this hardcore always the ones that have it in for Capcom? They're so caught up in their pessimism that they're too fucking dumb to see the implications to this *cough*Golden Dragon*cough*.

Me? I say just wait it out. If it happens it happens. If not, oh well....

Sano

01-20-2005, 02:17 PM

Interesting. I read the exact same thing from a TGS interview posted at Gamespot a few years back (around SvC's debut). I just didn't think SF Eternal would be a source for that news as well.

LOL, is it just me, or are the first ones to deny this hardcore always the ones that have it in for Capcom? They're so caught up in their pessimism that they're too fucking dumb to see the implications to this *cough*Golden Dragon*cough*.

Me? I say just wait it out. If it happens it happens. If not, oh well....

Ah... I hate it when my two friends Kataklysmic and Golden Dragon fight, oooh...

GD is okay. He just wants Capcom to return to what it was in the nineties. I'm more of a realist and know that's not going to happen. They are not going to shell out 10 new fighters a year and go completly bankrupt. GD hates Vs. Games, but they are here to stay. Ever since the DC/Marvel crossover in the 90s, it seems we are living in a vs. World, everything vs. everything, (even Hollywood!) crossover games with little or no storylines are going to continue. I see GD's points though, I don't think he is a hardcore gamer like some of us, (Yes, even though sano's a storyline person, he plays 2D fighters all the time) but for SF storylines and so on he's a good guy.

And he's actually enthusiastic about SF4 even if Capcom of America makes it. Many of us are skeptical SF4 will happen in 2007/2008 but that's Capcom's fault. It was there 15th Anniversary and all they could say was you might get something in 5 years. What's to stop them in SF's 20th Anniversary to say you may get it for their 25th Anniversary? We all want an official announcement released by the company when the game will come out, not something from Funamizu (the eternal staller) who probably said those words as he was cleaning out his desk. That's all.

TAS

01-20-2005, 02:52 PM

Kataklysmic

01-20-2005, 05:25 PM

I had posted everything I knew on the subject of SF4, even posted a link to it once which NOBODY cared to inspect, and that kid took it as a joke and threw it in my face. But hey, 80% of this site's populated by spoiled little brats who can't analyze a good fighting game for the life of them anyway, so it's not like I really need to single GD out or embarass him. That's impossible.

I understand people wanting the Vs. trend dropped for a SF4. It's just that those people, from story-whores to hardcore wannabes, are also the ones that are killing the whole SF scene. Whenever Capcom puts out a new fighting game that is truly new (and I don't believe storylines are that important with such a LINEAR genre), it gets no support. SF3 and CFAS make it crystal clear. Can Capcom help it if the only profit they can make lies in what they know works? Can they help it if they're not allowed to live in the '00s like Midway is with MK? Can they help it if SF fans continue to forget they make games other than fighters?

Yes, Capcom does not seem to care about SF, true, but that's largely because we are telling them that WE don't. And people like GD and Time-Stop? They're worse, because in spite of all these facts (maybe they're dyslexic? I dunno), they still dismiss them as lazy and come here to troll and spread their bullshit with the intent to kill the ONLY remaining support that the genre has, which does nothing but further enforce their believe that we don't care.

I'm just glad there's still going to be a Darkstalkers 4, because if Capcom USA can't make a good SF, and I do hope I'm wrong, then it's as good as gone.

Daemos

01-20-2005, 08:03 PM

Bison was born human, its the powers he learned that made him seem beyond human.

Psycho Power and Bison's immortal-soul-that-can-jump-bodies are 2 different unrelated/independant abilities/powers, the plot guide even implies this clearly. If this is true, this means that Bison's immortal soul (which is the key factor that makes him beyond human) could very well be out of hell somewhere recovering.

Gill too has an immortal soul btw (taken from the plotguide as well).

I thought that fact was retroactively changed.

It was changed from Bison killed Gouken to Bison beat up Gouken but spared his life, only for Gouken to be killed by Akuma.

TAS

01-20-2005, 08:24 PM

OMG

You know that The Illuminati has 66 Secret Techniques? Some of which are Immortal Soul, Ressurection, Creation of Fire, Un-Creation of Fire, Creation of Ice, Un-Creation of Ice, whatever the hell Urien's power is, etc, etc, and then its also possible that Bison's Psycho Power, and Rose's Soul Power are also part of the teachings, along with any and every other power in the SF Universe.

Anyways considering Bison's soul powers are similar to that of Gill's its possible he learned them from the same place (The Illuminati) along with any and every other power Bison has.

Psycho Power and Bison's immortal-soul-that-can-jump-bodies are 2 different things that are most likely 2 different abilities/powers.

Okay, now what does that have to do with Bison being human or not human?

And they are obviously 2 diffrient powers, specialy given Gill, and the fact that The Illuminati has 66 (quite a large number of) teachings.

If this is true, this means that Bison's immortal soul (which is the key factor that makes him beyond human) could very well be out of hell.

Nope.

The fact that Bison's soul is in hell is CANON, meaning there's no way it can be out of hell or else that statement would be a flat out lie, which if it were wouldnt of been stated in the Capcom books in the first place.

Gill too has an immortal soul btw

Yes I know its one of the techniques he learned from The Illuminati.

Just wait till I finish my Bison's Origins story, as its the conclusions I came to about Bison after speaking with Capcom.

Bison killed Gouken to Bison beat up Gouken but spared his life, only for Gouken to be killed by Akuma.

That all comes into play in my story, ie you'll find out why Bison bothered even seeking out Gouken in the first place.

Sano

01-20-2005, 08:56 PM

Kataklysmic - I agree with a lot of what you say. So long as the games are well recieved in Japan, we'll continue to get sequels. CFE was pretty well recieved over there making the Tourney rounds and the next DS is sure to be very popular so I'm not worried that much about Capcom's 2D future, but I think 2D as a whole will be gone in 10 years. I myslef don't get why they gave Capcom USA the rights to SF with all the money it's made them over the years, the only game series that has made Capcom more money is the Resident Evil series (Megaman is third) but I just hope Capcom of Japan closely monitors whatever Capcom USA does. Still, with Funamizu and Okamoto gone from Capcom, I don't think even if COJ made SF4 it would be quite the same thing.

Recently, Capcom got a US Patent for a game called something like "Capcom Beatdowns. Fight for Vengeance." This may mean they are working on something like a new Fighter or a Beat'em up like Final Fight and it may mean nothing since people patent a lot of stuff that never comes out. Still I'm excited. We need more of both genres.

No matter what the Capcom haters post, Resident Evil, Megaman, Devil May Cry, Onimusha and others will always insure that Capcom stays around, and there will always be fans asking for fighters, so Capcom's future doesn't bother me if you look at the big picture. 2D's future on the other hand, now that even Gameboys and the PSPs can play 3D games, it's only a matter of time before they are all fazed out. So we either adapt, or hang up our controllers, but that's how the world works. I hope Cel-Shading continues to grow as it's the next best thing to 2D IMHO.

TAS

01-20-2005, 10:06 PM

No matter what the Capcom haters post, Resident Evil, Megaman, Devil May Cry, Onimusha and others will always insure that Capcom stays around

Yeah but there's the question now if RE, DMC, and Onimusha are even going to continue given their creators seeem to be done with them. I've noticed Capcom is about 50/50 when it comes to deciding whether or not to keep a series going after the creator leaves the company or decides they dont want to continue the series (althouth I know DMC4 was just announced)

As far as those 3 series are concerned, Im looking foward to seeing Onimusha continue, as RE seems to have run its course although RE4 put a new breath of life into the series, and next DMC game is coming out soon, with #4 on the way. I mean I really liked Onimusha 2, thought 3 was really good too (and probaly has the best FMV intro I've ever seen for a game) although that Blade Warriors game was HORRENDUS, but anyways if Capcom is actually going to keep improving upon these series like they did with Onimusha 3, Devil May Cry 3, and Resident Evil 4, then its all for the better.

Also Capcom should start producing/funding/backing some smaller companies, to bring in some diffrient stuff into their fold or the gaming world, ie alot of small companies out there like Dimps (Rumblefish, DBZ Budokai series) Lightweight (Bushido Blade series, Kengo series) Aquire (Tenchu 1&2, Way of The Samurai 1&2) tend to focus on gameplay when it comes to games but lack the money and time to produce the best quality versions of their games, ie small companies tend to make good (hidden gem) games, but dont have the resources to make it as good as it could possibly be.

Sagatryu

01-20-2005, 11:28 PM

Urien's powers are wind/lightning, earth and the Aegis Reflector

TAS

01-21-2005, 01:11 AM

Urien's powers are wind/lightning, earth and the Aegis Reflector

Yeah, but what is Aegis? Thats what I was trying to figure out, does Urien have "Aegis Power" ? Whatever it is Im sure its one of techniques of the Illuminati.

mohammeda1i

01-21-2005, 06:54 AM

And people like GD and Time-Stop? They're worse, because in spite of all these facts (maybe they're dyslexic? I dunno), they still dismiss them as lazy and come here to troll and spread their bullshit with the intent to kill the ONLY remaining support that the genre has, which does nothing but further enforce their believe that we don't care.

I know some fools do come and troll, but I seriously don't think you can blame GD and Time-Stop for this. I mean, I know GD contributes a lot to the faq by tiamatroar, so why would he want to 'kill the only remaining support'?

Mohammed Ali

Kataklysmic

01-21-2005, 11:42 AM

That's what I want to know.

Try reading what he says outside of the plot thread.

EndLeSS8

01-21-2005, 03:53 PM

Yeah, but what is Aegis? Thats what I was trying to figure out, does Urien have "Aegis Power" ? Whatever it is Im sure its one of techniques of the Illuminati.

Aegis Reflector is probably a self styled technique by Urien. It is lightning based, because when you get hit by it, electricity crackles all around them. As for an Illuminati technique...I would say maybe, but most likely not. Urien and Gill have a lot of shared techniques (and frames, if you look at the frame rips...Urien even has Gill's Bk + MP)
Aegis isn't really a power, I don't think...it's probably some electrical manipulation that Urien can do. I guess, for stuff like Temporal Thunder, he moulds the electricty into a fireball, while with Aegis, he moulds it into a wall of electricity.

TAS

01-21-2005, 04:30 PM

Aegis Reflector is probably a self styled technique by Urien. It is lightning based, because when you get hit by it, electricity crackles all around them. As for an Illuminati technique...I would say maybe, but most likely not. Urien and Gill have a lot of shared techniques (and frames, if you look at the frame rips...Urien even has Gill's Bk + MP)
Aegis isn't really a power, I don't think...it's probably some electrical manipulation that Urien can do. I guess, for stuff like Temporal Thunder, he moulds the electricty into a fireball, while with Aegis, he moulds it into a wall of electricity.

Alright then, that means the Aegis Reflector is something that stems from Urien's power of lighting/electricity, which is one of The Illuminati's teachings.

Right now Im compiling a list of what most likely The 66 Techniques are, which I'll post later.

Sagatryu

01-21-2005, 05:46 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field

Nando

01-21-2005, 08:20 PM

So GIll wants to distroy the Church...???

i thought he just wanted to make people like him...(as in, to be like him)

Kuro

01-21-2005, 08:30 PM

So, with everything discussed so far... what are the official, Capcom-made tiers in terms of cannon power? If not, some plausible, detailed theories?

And, does events in Darkstalkers take the same time as events in Street Fighter? Like, in different dimensions, planes, etc etc?

Sagatryu

01-21-2005, 09:17 PM

Tier 1
Akuma, Gill, Oro - the strongest three out of the SFer's. They outclass
everyone. These guys are in the godly range. Oh, and SFA3 M. Bison
probably goes here, too.

Tier 2
M. Bison, Sagat (Note that this is Sagat in his most present state, not most
present state since when he was last seen in a game) , SF3 Ryu, Satsui no Ryu (Evil Ryu), Q, Urien

Tier 3
Ken, Gen, Rose, Charlie

Tier 4
Guile, Chun-Li, Hugo, Vega, Twelve

Tier 5
Adon, Guy, Sakura, Cody, Balrog, Cammy, Zangief, Dhalsim, T Hawk, Alex

Tier 6
The Twelve Dolls, Rolento, Sodom, Karin, Birdie, Necro, Dudley

Tier 7
Blanka, Fei Long, Honda

Tier 8
Makoto, Ibuki, Elena, Yun, Yang, Remy

Tier 9
Dee Jay, R. Mika, Dan

Tier 10
Sean

Here are some possible reasons for the Tier list from the plot Guide

Tier 1: This tier should be obvious. Gill, especially, with his fire and
ice creation, angel powers, and his last boss towering status. Akuma
should be, too. By SF3, the guy can destroy mountains, islands, and stay
in deep ocean for crying out loud. And Oro beat Ryu in the SF3 tournament,
and that was despite being handicapped by binding his arm. The guy's
become powerful enough to live to 150 years or so... I won't go into a
deeper analysis due to how obvious this tier is. Who specifically is the
best among Gill, Oro, and Akuma is up in the air, but eh, tiers aren't
supposed to be THAT specific. Bison during SFA3 probably went into this
range, also. Being able to take on Ken and Sakura at the same time (only
forced to retreat due to Ryu coming to), then Rose, then all 13 Dolls, then
Guile, Chun-Li, and Charlie has got to say something.

Tier 2

M. Bison: Akuma can beat him in SF2. Whether Akuma could have beaten him
during SFA3 where he was stronger (and Akuma was most likely weaker), not
sure, but in his last state, he generally goes here from all KNOWN factual
evidence (unknown stuff like how he lost the SF2 tournament or even if he
DID since we don't know when Akuma killed him aren't being considered here
since... well, it's unknown). He's definately high up, though. His
weakened body wasn't weakened to the point where he'd really really plummet
in the tiers, and during Alpha 3 it took a rather ludicrous amount of
consecutive battles against multiple opponents to finally take him down.

Ryu: Seen by Oro as the one with the potential to be trained, generally
considered a legend (see Makoto's statements about him), whomped Alex
easily in Third Strike, only lost the SF3 tournament because he went up
against the godly Oro and even then impressed the old guy, etc etc. This
one should be pretty obvious.

Evil Ryu: A major point of Ryu's SFA3 storyline is that he could follow
the path to warrior perfection without giving in to the Satsu no Hadou.
Even though Evil Ryu was really high up back then, the reason regular Ryu
is on the same tier is due to Ryu's revelations since then. He has now
managed to reach what he could have been had he given in. Generally shown
by Ryu promptly telling Akuma that Satsu no Hadou is not the way in SF3.
Er... yea. It's mostly implied as far as I know, but the implications are
more than enough to place the two into this tier with enough certainty.

Sagat: Although he was too obsessed with revenge and unfocused during
Alpha, by the end of Alpha 3, he has realized the error of his ways and is
now on the path to the true warrior. All statements and storyline
implications from there on are that Sagat is matching Ryu step for step in
progress as they await their glorious battle, so it's really easy to tier
Sagat here. Note that this is Sagat in his most present state, not most
present state since when he was last seen in a game, since unlike other
characters, it's easy to estimate where Sagat is even without seeing him
due to all the statements and implications.

Q: Q is marked as 'hinted' because there's no way to really gauge his
tier, what with him having no interactions with anyone else in the
storyline. But he's robotic and can somehow zip around the world, and
those are typically always powerful, and the effects of his moves sure look
darn powerful. So as a guestimate, he gets to be in this tier. Though
again, it's mostly a guess.

Tier 3

Rose: She's M. Bison lite. She's the only character in Alpha that was
actually able to give Bison a somewhat decent match one-on-one. But... she
still lost, so she's a tier lower. Rose could put up a fight against Alpha
Bison (well, actually, she WON in Alpha 2. Only 'lost' in Alpha 3) while
Chun-Li got owned for free in Alpha 2, and since there really isn't much to
indicate that Chun-Li improved THAT much since Alpha, Rose gets to be a
tier higher. Chun-Li only started being called the strongest woman in the
world since SF2, after Rose was gone.

Ken: Ryu states to Ken in SF3 that he still has the better win record.
But the way he says it indicates that it's still pretty close. Thus Ken
gets this tier. Pretty obvious, I think.

Gen: I think it's hard to decide whether he's in tier 2 or tier 3, but
he's definately up there. Gen was able to fight Akuma to a standstill in
Alpha, after all. He's definately not as good as the further trained Akuma
of SF3, though (Gen of course being most likely unable to further train
because he's most likely dead). I'd be really surprised if he (and thus
even Akuma during that time) was as strong as "I take on tons of people by
myself" SFA3 Bison, so... generally tier 3 for him. On a random note, Gen
uses ki in his attacks with lots of skill. It's just not as obvious as
Akuma (not all ki usage manifests as fireballs or something visual).

Charlie: Charlie is the US Martial Arts champion. Took down Bison in
SFA3, albeit with a little help. What mainly puts him here with certainty
instead of circumstantiality though I believe is how he's better than Guile
(even SF2 Guile). Charlie's ki manipulation is implied to be right up
there with Ryu and other top-notch fighters. He can shoot sonic booms from
any of his limbs, even his feet (something that Guile needs LOTS of
concentration to do. It takes Guile two hands and officially stated all
his focus just to throw one sonic boom). Since Guile, at least based on
what we can think of, comes into the tier below, and Charlie is definately
above Guile, even without the circumstantial evidence, we can generally
place Charlie in this tier.

Urien: Like Gen, I'm personally not sure if he should be in Tier 2 or Tier
3, but he's up there. He's better than Chun-Li (he's only toying with her
in SF3 Third Strike after all) and definately lower than Gill (Gill doesn't
even have to take him seriously and his power compared to Urien's is one of
the many things Urien is jealous of, of course). Anyways, Urien's
abilities include earth and lightning manipulation and an iron body (as
part of his earth manipulation). He's blinded by jealousy, though.

Tier 4

Guile: Most likely winner of the SF2 tournament. If you decide to ignore
that, then there's also the way in how he's storyline-wise more interwoven
and more 'important' than most of the other SF2 characters, and they
typically get favored in the storyline power tiers. And I believe he's
meant to be the same power as Chun-Li, but I forget^^; Whatever the case,
he's been training really hard since SFA3, though Charlie in SFA3 was still
most likely better than him (see Charlie in Tier 3 for reasons). He isn't
progressing any more because he gave up fighting after SF2 to be a family
man.

Chun-Li: Weaker than Rose but after Rose died then come SF2, is called the
strongest woman in the world, thus gets to be above the other female
characters in the next tier. That was easy. ...er, going further, Chun-Li
isn't any higher because she quit the ICPO and generally retired from
fighting and training after SF2 (course, after SF3, she trains OTHERS, but
that's another story). Anyways, Capcom has stated that she's the strongest
woman in the world during SF2, so it's not just the opinion of the SF
tournament audience (or whatever) that she is.

Hugo: Actually rather surprising he's up here, but all the facts point to
it. Hugo is officially stated to have withstood the shin shoryuken against
Ryu, which is officially stated to be one of the most powerful moves in the
world, so right there you know he's a really strong guy. He is also
officially stated to have made 'an amazing performance' in the SF3
tournament, which probably means he's generally above the majority of the
SF3 characters (he lost the tournament due to going up against Ryu, of
course. Oh, and to those who think Hugo is all stamina and nothing else, I
highly doubt he would have been stated to have made an amazing performance
if he didn't at least put up a somewhat decent fight against Ryu. So no,
he's not just a big punching bag with lots of endurance). As for who is
better, Hugo or Alex, well, Hugo withstanding the shin shoryuken means that
he probably put up a better fight against Ryu than Alex did. He withstood
an attack that officially could kill someone (Yea, Ryu's style isn't
designed to kill, but that doesn't mean it can't kill due to the sheer
damage alone) compared to Alex, who Ryu didn't even break a sweat fighting
against. That would probably earn him a tier spot higher. Ryu still beat
him somewhat soundly, though, so he's definately not up in Ken's tier.
Note, though, that many of these tiers are at best, educated guesses and
estimates. Maybe Alex made a huge comeback after Ryu was beating him (the
fight wasn't completely finished in Alex's TS ending) but from all
available evidence, this is the best that can be estimated.

Vega: Cammy's love-hate rival is generally better than her, and almost
positively let her win in their fight in SFA3. Therefore, Vega's a tier
higher than Cammy. Easy. He's also a better fighter within Shadaloo than
Balrog, I believe (not sure if it was officially stated. I think it was,
but I forget). He doesn't go any higher because that would place him on
Gen's level, which seems pretty darn silly. Capcom doesn't go around
praising his ability like they do for Charlie. Course... a harder more
definitive proof might just be simply that Rose beats him in A3.

Twelve: Again, there's lack of storyline interaction. But Twelve
officially feels no pain, and he can morph into other characters, so he's
probably up there somewhere. He's at least tier 5, because all lab reports
from Gill's organization indicate that he should be superior to Necro in
every way (not that that means it's fact, but it's the best thing to go by
so far. Course, you never know how far 'spirit' could go, I suppose).

Tier 5

Guy and Cody: Hard to tier, IMHO. They can beat Sodom and Rolento,
obviously. They can also beat a whole bunch of the Mad Gear gang, but it's
important to remember that they did not fight through Final Fight alone and
also that it's wholly possible and likely that the SF universe follows the
laws of anime (IE, any generic bad guy is really weak and easy to beat up
by most any semi-important character), thus the fact that they can take out
most of the Mad Gear scrubs isn't a very good gauge, either. Guy, even
though he is a Bushin master, is still equal to Cody even during SFA3,
though, so we at least know they are on the same tier. But storyline-wise,
neither has ever really gone up against any of the really high tier Street
Fighter characters, so this is the best guess we can get to place them
unless more *comparative* info ever comes in. Actually, though, after
getting Juni's official power ratings that she scans in SFA3, I'm thinking
that Sodom, Rolento, Guy, and Cody are probably a lot higher than this.
Probably around Charlie's level during SFA3, actually.

Adon: Strong enough to beat Sagat in SFA2. Sagat may have been unfocused,
but he was still powerful. There aren't many other matches to use to tier
him with hard core certainty, but beating SFA2 Sagat and being the new Muy
Thai Emperor should be enough to give him this tier.

Sakura: She's better than Karin. It's officially stated that her chi
manipulation is equal to Ken's during SFA3. The girl's ridiculously gifted
and able to learn Ryu's moves just by watching him. If Sakura continued
training on and on after SFA3, she could really be something.
Unfortunately, since SFA3 was so incredibly long ago, and Sakura's future
still highly up in the air (highschool is really a bit too early in life to
get that hard a bead on one's future, I think), the tier can really only go
by her last seen position (unlike Sagat, where it's shown that he's still
in the game after SF2 and his determination to stay on level with Ryu is
further emphasized). Anyways, Chun-Li is the strongest woman in the world
so Sakura is below her, regardless. Oh, and judging from SFA3, she can
beat Honda, so she gets to be higher than him.

Balrog: Can kill an elephant with his bare hands. Generally among the top
fighters in Shadaloo (not sure if it was officially stated, though I think
it was... it's implied, at least) and thus higher than the Dolls. Oh, and
judging by SFA3, he beat Birdie. Probably weaker than Vega, so here he
goes. Even if he's an idiot, he's still armed with 'the world's strongest
punches'...

Cammy: She's better than the other Dolls but weaker than Vega. ...wow,
that was easy.

Zangief: A bit hard to tier, but being implied to be Russia's greatest
warrior should account for something. He's better than R. Mika (it seems
he goes easy on her in SFA3 and all), and R. Mika is most likely better
than Dan, so Zangief gets to go here. On a random note, I have no clue
where Haggar (or any other Final Fight exclusive character, really) fits
in, here. Even Cody and Guy, who weren't exclusive to only Final Fight,
are hard to tier. Can't even decide whether or not Haggar is on Zangief's
level because the two never even met in person, after all, so there's no
interaction to use to compare.

T. Hawk: He can beat (and most likely actually has beaten) the Doll
Noembelu. ...another easy one.

Dhalsim: Loses to Ryu (at least, implied by one of Ryu's SF3 win quotes).
A bit hard to tier, but he's been going around doing lots of good things
for the world and has that fire power granted by the gods and such. There
might be more that I should poke Saiki for, but overall, this is a pretty
good guess, I think. He retired from fighting after SF2, by the way.

Alex: Alex is better than all the other SF3 characters (besides heavy
hitters like Ryu and Oro, who he never had to fight) as can be seen by him
winning the SF3 tournament. However, he's still not really that high up
since Ryu beat him VERY easily in Third Strike. Thus he only gets to be a
tier higher than where the other SF3 characters go. He's below Hugo even
though they never fought because Hugo actually put up a fight against Ryu.

Tier 6: The extras

Basically everyone else but Dan and generic Shadaloo soldiers (who are
officially stated to be skilled but weaker than the Dolls) go here. Hard
to tier among them exactly mainly due to lack of existance of factual
*comparative* data for a large majority of them. At any rate, though,
they're definately weaker than everyone else above them. Karin loses to
Sakura, the Dolls lose to Rose, Cammy, and T. Hawk, E. Honda loses to
Sakura, every SF3 character not above this tier loses to Alex or Hugo,
etc. Moving along, good reasons for guestimates from here on IMHO are...

Tier 6: All the characters listed have been stated to beat other skilled
people, even if none of them were actually non-nameless goons. Or...
something to that effect. The twelve Dolls are each stronger than each of
the other 2000 skilled martial artists in Shadaloo (They aren't called
elite for nothing), Rolento and Sodom rise above all generic Mad Gear
members to be bosses, Karin loses to Sakura but still puts up a good fight
so she's probably only a tier lower, Birdie fought hard enough to impress
Bison in order to join Shadaloo (and thus is also probably above the other
2000 skilled martial artists. Eh, he got to be playable and get a name
while they didn't :P)... Necro is implied due to all his genetically
enhanced abilities that probably give him an edge, and Dudley beat lots of
guys in his boxing career to earn money to buy his dads' things back.

Tier 7: 'Grown-up' nobodies. Not much else to say. Well, E. Honda rose
to become a good sumo wrestler at least, but not sure if that says enough
for him. He beat Sodom in SFA2, but that's because Sodom was fighting as a
sumo wrestler and thus not using his primary fighting style, so...

Tier 8: 'Teeny-bopper' nobodies. Poor Yun, Yang, Makoto, and Elena just
don't have enough official statements implying their good abilities to go
higher. Er... no offense to these characters with the 'nobody' remarks, of
course.

Tier 9: Characters that Capcom of Japan just doesn't seem to like :P Well,
okay, Dan's probably weak on purpose.

Tier 10: Judging by where Capcom seems to be going with Sean, it seems
like he really IS weaker than Dan at this point. It's like a joke in
itself, almost. Almost like when Sean says "Hey, I'm not Dan!", he's
right. He's not Dan. He's worse! Even Dan doesn't get his ass kicked
THAT often in the official storyline. Sure, it was to Ryu and Ken, but the
only time Dan got his ass whupped as an ending joke was to cyber Akuma in a
VS game. Sean gets portrayed as getting kicked around a lot more than Dan,
even, so...

Sagatryu

01-22-2005, 05:52 PM

Apathy-Inc

01-22-2005, 05:55 PM

33 Stock manipulation :encore:

mukai

01-22-2005, 08:18 PM

I doubt Gill can beat Bison fairly easily, especially if he is fighting SFA3 Bison (in his most powerful form)

The only thing Gill has got going for him is his resurrect ability, which makes him possible to beat but impossible to kill.

I still would like to point out that the effects of the raging demon could differ on Bison than on others because his soul is immortal and has transcended humanity; Evil never dies.

1. how about in a blink of and eye?
2. you forgot to add seraphic wing?
3.vega's soul is not immortal.

TAS

01-23-2005, 01:41 AM

Hope your list is better than mine Because I could only come up with 32 Possible Secret Techniques From the Illuminati.

1 Psycho Power
2. Soul Power
3. Fire manipulation
4. Creation of Fire
5. Un-Creation of Fire
6. Ice manipulation
7. Creation of Ice
8. Un-Creation of Ice
9. Immortal Soul
10. Ressurection
11. Lightning manipulation
12. Creation of Lighting
13. Un-Creation of Lighting
14. Earth manipulation
15. Creation of Earth
16. Un-Creation of Earth
17 Wind manipulation
18 Creation of Wind
19 Un-Creation of Wind
20 Water manipulation
21 Creation of Water
22. Un-Creation of Water
23. Dark manipulation
24 Creation of Dark
25. Un-Creation of Dark
26 Light manipulation
27 Creation of Light
28 Un-Creation of Light
29 Time manipulation
30 Space manipulation
31 Magnetism manipulation
32 Gravity manipulation

I could only come up with 41. Like you I found it quite obvious that creation and uncreattion would be seperate considering 66 is such a big number.

Anyways here's my list...

1)Fire (creation)
2)Fire (un-creation)
3)Ice (creation)
4)Ice (un-creation)
5)Water (creation)
6)Water (un-creation)
7)Wind (creation)
8)Wind (un-creation)
9)Earth (creation)
10)Earth (un-creation)
11)Lightning/Electricity (creation)
12)Lightning/Electricity (un-creation)
13)Smoke/Mist/Fog (creation)
14)Smoke/Mist/Fog (un-creation)
15)Light (creation)
16)Light (un-creation)
17)Darkness (creation)
18)Darkness (un-creation)
19)Levitation/Flight
20)Teleportation
21)Immortality (Youth)
22)Immortality (Soul)
23)Psycho Power
24)Soul Power
25)Ki/Chi
26)Alchemy
27)Mind (telepathy, telekenisis, etc)
28)Life (Healing, Ressurection)
29)Death
30)Dissolve
32)Invisibility
33)Restoration
34)Destruction
35)Mind Manipulation
36)Time Manipulation
37)Space Manipulation
38)Graviy Manipulation
39)Super Strength
40)Super Agility
41)Super Speed

Some of you may be curious about some of these so...

Ki/Chi

Well most of the abilities the SF chars have stem from chi/ki, however I doubt all the powers/abilites do, like the ones Gill, Urien, and Bison could use, but the ability to use, create, and manipulate chi/ki is no doubt a teaching of The Illuminati.

Alchemy

Dont know why I really put this down (maybe been watchin too much Full Metal Alchemist) but thought it could defenitly be a teaching.

Death

Obviously the opposite of the Life powers, ie basicly the ability to instantly to kill someone, no doubt where the powers of the Shun Goku Satsu came from.

Dissolve

Seen in Gill and Urien's intros.

Desstruction and Restoration

Desstruction (if the user was powerful enough) for example could destroy an entire building (crumble it to the ground) while Restoration could build that same building back up.

I think everything else is can be figured out.

EndLeSS8

01-23-2005, 02:51 AM

You guys need to add "Iron body"
It's Urien's technique, which is why when he blocks, there is a metal "ting" sound.
And in case you don't believe me, look at Hugo's win quote vs Urien in 2nd Impact....it says something like "oh you have an iron body, eh? does it rust?"

Sagatryu

01-23-2005, 03:06 AM

Iron Body is a part of Urien's Earth manipulation

Earth manipulation isn't just about manipulate just dirt or rock, it's also about manipulating the minerals such as Iron.

EndLeSS8

01-23-2005, 03:48 AM

it's a side note...but I seriously think it shouldn't be considered the same.
I mean, if it's Earth manipulation, why wouldn't Urien use something stronger from the Earth? Like "Diamond body" or "Corundum body"?
I'm being serious here.

Nando

01-23-2005, 03:50 PM

Whats Gills mission???

Dasrik

01-23-2005, 06:05 PM

So pardon me for coming late to the party, but...

SF4 is being developed?

Daemos

01-23-2005, 07:32 PM

1. how about in a blink of and eye?
2. you forgot to add seraphic wing?
3.vega's soul is not immortal.

1- WTF?
2- Psycho Break Smasher (seen in A3) pwns eeet! :devil:
3- Yes it is. He states it several times in the Alpha games and implies it frequently in VS games like SVC.

@Nando

To find the best of the best, to preserve them after judgement day.

@Dasrik

Not officially, but there are rumors (and also TAS's word which I'm not sure if we can rely on, I don't know him too well).

BTW the list of techniques is OVER-complicated. It can be simplified to:

Psycho Power (assuming it is a technique from the illuminati)
Soul Power (from the impression I get it is the opposite of Psycho Power or just a lesser form of Psycho Power)
Resurrection
Manipulation of the elements (wind, water, fire, earth and lightning)
Immortality (soul and body)

All other techniques mentioned such as ki, telekinesis etc. can't be categorized as one of the 66 SUPER SECRET ILLUMINATI TECHNIQUES.

I believe Psycho Power is a variation of Akuma's evil energy. It is implied (ryu's A3 ending and CvS2 Bison's ending) that they are related and that they are sister-powers. It would also explain why Bison wanted to kill or attacked Gouken, he didn't want anyone else to know the techniques he knew. Bison's immortality on the other hand, is something entirely different, possibly related to the Illuminati.

Dasrik

01-23-2005, 07:41 PM

Okay, this is a longshot question if there ever was one, but...

...is there any way to approach Capcom with storyline ideas?

Sagatryu

01-23-2005, 08:06 PM

The Manipulation of physics ( Time Manipulation , Space Manipulation , Gravity manipulation , Magnetism manipulation and Kinetic Energy manipulation )

Manipulation of the elements (wind, water, fire, earth, lightning, Dark and Light )

TAS

01-23-2005, 09:44 PM

So pardon me for coming late to the party, but...

SF4 is being developed?

Is it actually in production? Probaly not.

There has been alot of pre-production stuff done for it though.

BTW the list of techniques is OVER-complicated. It can be simplified to:

No, it is NOT over complicated. There are 66 Techniques, canon, simple as that. Capcom officialy stated there 66 techniques, that means there is ALOT of techniques, it dosnt mean the least is over complicated.

Psycho Power (assuming it is a technique from the illuminati)
Soul Power (from the impression I get it is the opposite of Psycho Power or just a lesser form of Psycho Power)
Resurrection
Manipulation of the elements (wind, water, fire, earth and lightning)
Immortality (soul and body)

That sucks, and if thats all The Illuminati had they'd really suck.

And its easy to figure out some of the powers like Light and Dark the powers Gill was supposed to have, but didnt, so those would HAVE to be on the list, yet you dont have em listed.

All other techniques mentioned such as ki, telekinesis etc. can't be categorized as one of the 66 SUPER SECRET ILLUMINATI TECHNIQUES.

Uhm yes they can, and no doubt are. Also Id like to see what you'd say when Capcom publishes the list of them and those things are listed on the list.

I believe Psycho Power is a variation of Akuma's evil energy.

UGH.

No.

The Satsu No Hadou is an offspring of Hadou, which is an offspring of Ki/Chi, so no thats not correct.

It is implied (ryu's A3 ending and CvS2 Bison's ending) that they are related and that they are sister-powers.

Un-Canon Bad Translations are your aurguement?

It would also explain why Bison wanted to kill or attacked Gouken, he didn't want anyone else to know the techniques he knew.

Satsu No Hadou and Psycho Power are ONLY related because they feed off negative emotions, and that is the ONLY reason they're similar (aside from them both being purple, which is a common color used for evil)

And that reason makes no sense, considering Gouken didnt like the Satsu No Hadou, never used it, and if Bison didnt want anyone else using Psycho Power then he'd have to kill a bunch of people in The Illuminati who also know who to use it, so that reason makes no sense.

Okay, this is a longshot question if there ever was one, but...

...is there any way to approach Capcom with storyline ideas?

If you go to Japan, and set up a meeting with them, otherwise no.

Dasrik

01-24-2005, 08:08 PM

Let me explain something once and for all, just to shut the fanboys up.

Satsui no Hadou = evil/murderous/killing intent. This exists in EVERYONE, and Akuma/Gouki is the expert at utilizing this energy. Ryu possesses a great deal of this energy because he's dedicated his life to the fight, but chooses not to summon it because he knows its path is one of destruction. Sakura has it in MSF/MvC2 because it's conjecture based on canon; kind of a "what-if-Sakura-kept-fighting" easter egg.

Psycho Power = a universal power that stems from the collective negative emotions of everyone in the world. It's not inherent in a particular individual, but is a collective wellspring of hateful energy that can be controlled if you know how. Soul Power is a mirror image of Psycho Power; thus, one cannot exist without the other.

The difference? Satsui no Hadou is a PHYSICAL power, Psycho Power is a SPIRITUAL power.

Daemos

01-24-2005, 08:17 PM

I see TAS enjoys being a pedantic ass.

No, it is NOT over complicated. There are 66 Techniques, canon, simple as that. Capcom officialy stated there 66 techniques, that means there is ALOT of techniques, it dosnt mean the least is over complicated.

Yes it is. I am fully aware that there are 66 techniques - what I am pointing out is your LIST is shit because it complicates things just to fill space.

That sucks, and if thats all The Illuminati had they'd really suck.

No one said that is all. But the little list I made perfectly replaces most of your list which IS unnecessarily oversized.

Uhm yes they can, and no doubt are. Also Id like to see what you'd say when Capcom publishes the list of them and those things are listed on the list.

You obviously didn't see the point of that sentence. How can "ki" and telekinesis be SUPER SECRET ILLUMINATI TECHNIQUES when every street fighter with a projectile knows how to manifest their ki. It's not really secret and super now is it?

Un-Canon Bad Translations are your aurguement?

Un-canon? Don't give me your bullshit. They are in MY GAME therefore, they are CANON. Ryu says in his Alpha3 ending that the power that Bison shoots into Ryu is the same power Akuma told Ryu about.

Satsu No Hadou and Psycho Power are ONLY related because they feed off negative emotions, and that is the ONLY reason they're similar (aside from them both being purple, which is a common color used for evil)

WTF?! PSYCHO POWER IS FEEDING OFF NEGATIVE EMOTIONS and SO IS SATSU NO HADOU! Therefore they are one and the same. If something looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck then in all likelihood it IS a duck.

And that reason makes no sense, considering Gouken didnt like the Satsu No Hadou, never used it, and if Bison didnt want anyone else using Psycho Power then he'd have to kill a bunch of people in The Illuminati who also know who to use it, so that reason makes no sense.

Gouken didn't use satsu no hadou but he knew the technique, which would make him a viable target for Bison.

And stop spouting shit about the Illuminati knowing how to use psycho power, there is ZERO canonical indication that the Illuminati teach and know psycho power. If you have canonical proof that the Illuminati know how to use psycho power, feel free to correct me...

Until then, stop posting things as if every word you say should be heeded as fact, cuz from what I'm reading it's a lot of opinion, a lot of your fan fiction mixed with some facts you picked up from the plot guide.

Let me explain something once and for all, just to shut the fanboys up.

Satsui no Hadou = evil/murderous/killing intent. This exists in EVERYONE, and Akuma/Gouki is the expert at utilizing this energy. Ryu possesses a great deal of this energy because he's dedicated his life to the fight, but chooses not to summon it because he knows its path is one of destruction. Sakura has it in MSF/MvC2 because it's conjecture based on canon; kind of a "what-if-Sakura-kept-fighting" easter egg.

Psycho Power = a universal power that stems from the collective negative emotions of everyone in the world. It's not inherent in a particular individual, but is a collective wellspring of hateful energy that can be controlled if you know how. Soul Power is a mirror image of Psycho Power; thus, one cannot exist without the other.

The difference? Satsui no Hadou is a PHYSICAL power, Psycho Power is a SPIRITUAL power.

That's one interpretation.

Allow me to explain it the way I see it. :)

Satsu No Hadou is when you feed off your own negative emotions (hate, anger, fear) to become stronger, more powerful.

Psycho Power is when you feed off the negative emotions (hate, fear, anger)of yourself and others to become stronger and more powerful.

The similarity is both powers manifest negative emotions in a physical form (purple energy). The difference is the source of the negative emotions.

This makes my theory that both powers are more than likely sister-powers and/or possibly one and the same very sound and realistic. I'm not making shit up you know, go play Alpha 3 and beat the game with Ryu.

Capcom fan!

01-24-2005, 08:41 PM

Sano

01-24-2005, 08:45 PM

Hey sano! CFE was the shit. But you suck man. Start getting good info . All your shit sucks.

:rofl: Capcom Fan's one of my friends outside of the forums, I've hung out with him a few times. He said he would purposely flame me just for fun, so just ignore and laugh and continue with you current debate! :rofl:

The Damned

01-24-2005, 10:35 PM

Ha. I suppose that I'll attempt to act as some faux mediator simply because this one of the few threads that I can remember having subscribed to without posting in it first (and thus being subscribed automatically). It's not that I enjoy such a role, but I do it enough that I might as well try since I don't want something as petty as passionate emotion to mar the thread.

That said, there are two central issues at present: the whole Psycho Power (can anyone tell me how exactly Soul Power is different? I know that they are, but even Rose doesn't really say anything about it in-game)-Satsui no Hadou connection and the partial guessing of the supposedly existent 66 "Super Secret" Illumanti Techniques.

While the former is one of great concern for me presently, it is the easier of the two, if only because the answer is far more definite. Speaking of definition, I must say to you Daemos, that, although I can see you're definition as equally relevant to Dasrik's (not saying that I agree with you on them being the exact same thing, but that's what opinions are for), I will say that you misunderstand TAS on at least on point:

Un-Canon Bad Translations are your aurguement?

What TAS was trying to say here, I believe, is not that your own citation is gone from SFA3--anyone can get the ending ratyher easily with Final Battle Mode to see that you're telling the truth--but merely that Capcom of U.S.A. tends to add in things that don't fit with the plot and, even worse, completely contradict it.

There are egregious examples of this, such as names (Gouki's, Nash's, Sodom's, the whole confusing Vega-Balrog-M.Bison bullshit), backgrounds (Maki's supposed hatred of things violent...besides having street fighting as a past time; is she secretly an Iori Yagami fan?), meanings/translations (ummm...Satsui no Hadou, oh, I mean Evil Intent since we're discussing it), textual dialouge (Urien's knowing Tom in the U.S. version of SF3), and, thus because of the need for text in-game, even ending (TiamatRoar gives an example with Cammy's SF2 ending), though this is not to say that the ending you point to is necessarily incorrect.

Point is CUSA seems to tend to mess up on things.

Hell, we're still trying to figure out whether Poison is/was a man or not because of them. :confused:

However, as I stated earlier, this is not my issue, so I leave the rest for you two to attempt to work out; I'm far more interested in the latter issue.

Apropos the list, I, again, side more with TAS at the moment than I do you Daemos, though I can see what you say about some overlapping parts; I do, however, thing that creation and un-creation of the elements are seperate things and you cannot really blame TAS for having them seperate if Capcom probably did seperate them...not that he knows everything.

Anyway, before I start trying to speculate myself about some of the things mentioned, I figured that I should probably suggest a revision of the overlapping ones. Since I'm using 40 post, I'm not sure whether this will be on the same page as TAS's (barely more extensive) list and thus I'm going to quote it again. Besides, I'm sure that will be a bit more helpful when pointing out some of the wierd things that I found when the numbers and words are more immediate.

But enough of my words:

I could only come up with 41. Like you I found it quite obvious that creation and uncreattion would be seperate considering 66 is such a big number.

Anyways here's my list...

1)Fire (creation)
2)Fire (un-creation)
3)Ice (creation)
4)Ice (un-creation)
5)Water (creation)
6)Water (un-creation)
7)Wind (creation)
8)Wind (un-creation)
9)Earth (creation)
10)Earth (un-creation)
11)Lightning/Electricity (creation)
12)Lightning/Electricity (un-creation)
13)Smoke/Mist/Fog (creation)
14)Smoke/Mist/Fog (un-creation)
15)Light (creation)
16)Light (un-creation)
17)Darkness (creation)
18)Darkness (un-creation)
19)Levitation/Flight
20)Teleportation
21)Immortality (Youth)
22)Immortality (Soul)
23)Psycho Power
24)Soul Power
25)Ki/Chi
26)Alchemy
27)Mind (telepathy, telekenisis, etc)
28)Life (Healing, Ressurection)
29)Death
30)Dissolve
32)Invisibility
33)Restoration
34)Destruction
35)Mind Manipulation
36)Time Manipulation
37)Space Manipulation
38)Graviy Manipulation
39)Super Strength
40)Super Agility
41)Super Speed

Some of you may be curious about some of these so...

Ki/Chi

Well most of the abilities the SF chars have stem from chi/ki, however I doubt all the powers/abilites do, like the ones Gill, Urien, and Bison could use, but the ability to use, create, and manipulate chi/ki is no doubt a teaching of The Illuminati.

Alchemy

Dont know why I really put this down (maybe been watchin too much Full Metal Alchemist) but thought it could defenitly be a teaching.

Death

Obviously the opposite of the Life powers, ie basicly the ability to instantly to kill someone, no doubt where the powers of the Shun Goku Satsu came from.

Dissolve

Seen in Gill and Urien's intros.

Desstruction and Restoration

Desstruction (if the user was powerful enough) for example could destroy an entire building (crumble it to the ground) while Restoration could build that same building back up.

I think everything else is can be figured out.

Okay, first I'm getting rid of the ones that I flat out disagree with:

Smoke/Mist/Fog Manipulation (#13-14)

This just seems odd since the rest of the list could be at least be described as "elemental". Also, they don't seem all that useful, especially considering you yourself later list "Invisibility (#32, though it should really be #31 unless you accidentally omitted #31 when you posted...meaning that you would have 40 techniques, not 41...but I digress)", which is at least supported by Twelve.

It's made even more queer (as in odd, not gay, I've just being use the word a lot lately because I had to "Ballad of the Sad Cafe" for my English class) by the fact these essentially just "by-products", at least in terms of smoke; as far as I can guess, Water Manipulation (#5-6) could be used to make Mist and/or Fog (I forget whether there is an actual difference or not, but there probably is). Going back to these supposed technique's usefulness or lack there of, they're all really damned weak for "super secret" things in actuality. I mean, if you already have Invisibility and straight-up "Death (#29)" techniques, then why the hell would need something that could, at best, kill someone through slow, probably avoidable suffocation? ...Especially when Gill and Urien could probably chokehold people with one hand.

Gill: "Is the -Saviour- going to have to choke a bitch?"

While I can why you would have the Scientific Trinity (Water, Ice, and Mist/Fog/Water Vapor), even if it does make sense with a probable seperation of Water Manipulation (#5-6) from Ice Manipulation (#3-4), considering that Water Manipulation isn't even officially on there and that #13-14 is so egregiously pathetic...it doesn't really make sense. At least to me.

Mind (#27) and Mind Manipulation (#35)

Unless you can tell me exactly why you think that these deserve to co-exist as seemingly repetitive categories, then I'm going to have follow the infamous "Highlander" quote: "There can only be one!"

I mean, REALLY, is there anything that actually makes there different?

Going even further, considering that Mind is so generic, especially comparative to a lot of things, and the fact that people that are psychics in-game don't necessary have all the abilities of the mind, i.e. Dhalsim's ability of Telepathy without in Telekinetic feats, besides minor feats of Levitation, I think that we can at least seperate Telepathy and Telekinesis into two different numbers and get rid of these two.

Time Manipulation (#36)

There is no, I repeat, NO way that the Illumanti has this, at least at very powerful/fully-mastered (if any of them actually are) technique. If they did, then--chrono loops and "time travel ettiqutte" aside--whatever leader was around in the past probably would have went into the future and bitch-smacked it already so that Gill wouldn't have to wait for the next 200 years.

If they have it, it's not "very" powerful, meaning no out and out time travel. *sighs of relief*

If they have it, it's probably either like some bastardized version of Viewtful Joe's power (which possible considering Capcom did make and that game is quite sucessful) with the power to "stop" time being it's apex.

I don't really like it, but that's mostly because of the scale of Gill's power makes it seems like Illumanti would have either really powerful forms of techniques or none at all, nothing in-between.

Space Manipulation (#37)

I also disagree with this because at it's apex, it's only probably immensely "broken".

In fact, the only type of Space Manipulation that seems to ever be shown or documented in the Street Fighter universe is, guess what, Teleportation (#20).

So, until Gill starts destroying solar systems ala Sephiroth on a regular basis, I'm going to have vote against this.

Gravity Manipulation (#38)

Considering that Gill got killed in his ending by Akuma/Gouki in what I'm going to assume he knew was a death match, then Gill couldn't have this or else Gouki would have been crushed flat before he could even shout "MESSATSU!". I mean, Gill isn't idiot like in-game Gravity Man; he'd be far more likely to use intelligently ala Bob and George's Gravity Man.

So I'm against this one.

Now for the ones that I just feel "iffy" about:

Immortality: Youth (#21)

I can kind of see this since it seems like Gill is the definitely the one that's going to be waiting 200 years--unless it wasn't literally 2200 or whatever the hell the date of the Apocalypse was supposed to be. So I do mostly agree.

However, I will say that this would probably the most recently and thus sixty-sixth technique or else it seems contradictory that the Illumanti would have the stored brains of all their dead leaders.

Alchemy (#26)

I've been watching FMA a lot as well, and while there is no definite proof, I can definitely see the Illumanti as one of the few organizations to take advantage of being able to create the gold and not (egregiously) destroy the world's market by being unworthy and overzealous.

Still, even with all the bullshit Edward pulls, I don't really see how this could be a battle technique...assuming that all techniques of the Illumanti are battle techniques....

Death (#29)

I don't think that we have seen any evidence of this in the Illumanti, but they do probably have them.

So...I don't necessarily disagree with the idea itself, but I can say that the name sort of leaves me wanting...since (almost) everything on the list (and countless other things not on it can cause Death).

Thus, I merely ask that you think of a better name if you can; all I can think of is "Spiritual Death", but there's nothing proven that the Illumanti has Ansatsuken one-strike techniques, nevermind ones that send people to "Hell".

Decay--I'm sorry, but "Dissolve" sounds wierd to me, to say the least (#30) and Destruction (#34)

Same thing as "Death", the names are WAY too vague. These ones seems even more iffy though as a general category, since a lot of things cause Decay and Destruction.

Hell, I'll even say that #30 "absorbs" #34 definitively unless you can prove otherwise (I could gladly make this longer with "proof" but I'd rather wait for you to disagree with me first).

Okay, now with all that said, I can only think of two to add: Super Endurance like Urien (agree with EndLeSS8 that inferior Earth Manipulation sounds rather queer, especially when he listed tougher materials) and Shaping (pretty much Shape-shifting, but that word leaves a bad taste in my mouth due the fact that people using transform into things with more mass...which I'm so glad that Twelve cannot :tup: ).

Feel free to disagree with me. Or beat me to death for hurting your eyes with another non-concise post.

Especially since I plan to double post an explanation about the reason why Ki/Chi is a possible technique.

danomyte

01-24-2005, 11:02 PM

i dont think dissvolve is a power. i think gill & urien power rushing threw there body is tears there clothes.

Duck Strong

01-24-2005, 11:27 PM

Stop the stupid!!

God did it ever occur to any of you that Capcom has no real coherent storyline in mind? They just make this shit up as they go.

As for the post that preceded mine all I can say is familiarize yourself with the etymology of the word psycho before spouting off about more nonsense.

The Damned

01-24-2005, 11:35 PM

This one of the few times that I could actually think where it's beneficial to double post, since I don't want people to miss this. So, forgive me--for killing your eyes too--but I find this necessary.[/bias]

Anyway, as I said above, I this post will be entirely about a point that Daemos raised that I personally think is the reason why Ki/Chi could probably be a general category for the Illumanti:

-Ki/Chi- (#25)

To paraphase Daemos' genuine complaint: Why the hell would Gill's orginization have "Super Secret" techniques when almost everyone, even Zangief, can manipulate ki?!

To begin a lengthy answer: It's simply because theirs are "better" then everyone else's.

A seemingly childish answer to a serious question, I actually find it rather crude and to the point and thus a good place to start: difference in ki.

Sure. In-game, the game and character battles tend to be Special and Super Technique fests that show us that nearly everyone in the SF universe can control ki, even Dan and Sean! They all seem to do it rather easily, whether it's the "scrub" fireball spamming or the "expert" using selective fireballs for space control, the characters easily and effortlessly gather the chi for the attack in less than the blink of eye and the resulting damage, at its worst, is a pixel of "block damage", and, at its best, is probably only half a life bar.

However, in the "reality" of SF, ki and everything in general is far more powerful. Ryu never spammed special attacks in the exoteric the Street Fighter II animated movie. Guile, a person whose projectile probably the most whored of all in-game, personally shocked the hell out of me when the always slow and seemingly more-for-annoyance-than-for-damage Sonic Boom zoomed through Bison's fading image and split a shack in half!

"But that's not how projectiles behave in-game!" I mentally cried. Due to the disparity, I somewhat shrugged it off. I mean, the USA network's somewhat atrocious SF cartoon had used this, and we all know how well-written that. So, as aforementioned, I forgot about it.

Enter Tiamat's guide. Enter my saving of the guide to Word. Enter my recent reading of the guide.

I believe the passage the best illustrates this is found under Charlie's entry:

"The Sonic Boom is actually created by using ki. Nash will concentrate his ki into his hand, arm of whatever and thrusts it at a speed faster than sound. When someone is hit by the Sonic Boom, it'll feel like getting smashed into a brick wall. It's also colder than Russia's winter and is also supposed to be the fastest projectile story-wise. The games don't show this at all though."

What? The games said not to be an accurate representation of the "reality" of SF, at least in terms of projectiles? Blasphemy!

Well, the blasphemy is rather official, especially considering that very guide has pretty much been approved by Capcom and is being used for the very comic that makes this section that allows this thread to exist.

So...it seems that SF2: TAM was/is rather accurate with ki being rather slow thing that does more than a "pixel of damage", even if you block it in "reality".

I mean, hell, in the SF universe, ki is usually cold or at least cool, but M. Bison's projectile burns, the Shinkuu Hadoken (I believe that it was said even in this thread) can kill if Ryu gave into Satsu no Hadou, and, hell, despite their weakness, I don't think you or I would be getting up as easily as an SF sprite after getting smacked by Sean's Hadou Burst or Dan's Shinkuu Gadouken.

So...we can be agree that there's ready evidence that ki can be devestating, something that is barely less dangerous--perhaps more when you higher up the "tiers"--than the physical techniques of some characters--Shin Shoryuken anyone?

However, before I go to the "highest of the high", I will emphasis that an additional reason to why ki may itself be a category: Not everyone uses ki, at least externally. Rainbow Mika doesn't use ki. Karin doesn't use ki. Cammy doesn't use ki. Hell, two of the "Kings" of Shadaloo, Balrog and Vega, don't use ki; discount Vega's use of ki to make "living" form of his of snake tattoo, despite how cool you might think it is. So yeah, while arguably everyone in the game has greater "external ki"--ki can be external--than the average Joe (heh).

Now, we go those that "matter", those that have "better" ki technique: The Unholy Trinity (or Quadriology if you include SFA3 M.Bison). Akuma, Oro, and, most importantly to this discussion obviously, Gill could all probably kill us with a "fireball" (with that term being somewhat literal for Gill), let alone obliterate our bodies with any energy "Super".

And, now, actually getting to Gill. The reason that I think ki could be a category unto itself is that it would specialize in gathering and using large amount of ki...quickly.

The chief "evidence" of possible ki category comes in two simple yet devestating words: Seraphic Wing.

Think about it. Besides adding to Gill's obvious religious purpose and influences, it subtly speaks of Gill's power. Even in-game, it is THE Dreaded Move. Everyone freaks out when that bastards flies--quickly--to the center of the screen before, without any obvious charging besides the super animation, releasing -Angelic Death-.

Now, think about the how much damage that does in-game blocked.

Think about, if you've ever been unfortunate to be with it, how much life you lost.

Think about how the weaker Akuma was able to sink an island with a single punch and destory Ayer's Rock with a single attack (I can't remember where I heard that though).

Think about the fact that Oro is still, without a doubt, inferior to Gill while trying to imagine the expotential power that a "true" Yagyu Domou (if that's what the EX version of the orb super is called) probably possesses.

Then, finally, realize that such a power is still dwarfed by the mini-nuke* that is unavoidable Seraphic Wing.

I'm not sure whether I got my point across; I wouldn't be suprised if I didn't. Either way, feel free to talk me about it since I don't want to have wasted my time.

*I'm restraining myself here.

EDIT: Stop the stupid!!

God did it ever occur to any of you that Capcom has no real coherent storyline in mind? They just make this shit up as they go.

You've a point.

However, I personally do like to speculate, especially about superhuman things, so that's not much a problem for me. I do, however, have more important things to be doing, so....

Duck Strong

01-25-2005, 12:23 AM

Sorry I'm such an asshole, sometimes I just can't help it.

TAS

01-25-2005, 12:35 AM

I see TAS enjoys being a pedantic ass.

Yeah, and you enjoy being a fucking retard.

Yes it is. I am fully aware that there are 66 techniques - what I am pointing out is your LIST is shit because it complicates things just to fill space.

No, you dont like the fact that there are such a large number of techniques, so you chose not to believe it, or think your views on it better then even Capcom's.

No one said that is all. But the little list I made perfectly replaces most of your list which IS unnecessarily oversized.

No, you list sucks, and is just flat out lazy.

You obviously didn't see the point of that sentence. How can "ki" and telekinesis be SUPER SECRET ILLUMINATI TECHNIQUES when every street fighter with a projectile knows how to manifest their ki. It's not really secret and super now is it?

1) WHO THE FUCK SAID THE TECHNIQUES WERE "SUPER SECRET" ???

2) Lets see, if someone was in The Illuminati, learned the techs then left isnt there a chance, oh lets say those techniques could get out? But no that could never happen right? I mean specialy since Bison seems like he was possibly with The Illuminati and is now still with them right?

Un-canon? Don't give me your bullshit. They are in MY GAME therefore, they are CANON. Ryu says in his Alpha3 ending that the power that Bison shoots into Ryu is the same power Akuma told Ryu about.

All right fine believe your shitty Capcom of America SFA3.

BTW I suppose you believe "Evil" Ryu killed everyone right? I mean it showed it right there in his SFA3 ending.

WTF?! PSYCHO POWER IS FEEDING OFF NEGATIVE EMOTIONS and SO IS SATSU NO HADOU!

So that means hate and anger are the exact samethings then?

Gouken didn't use satsu no hadou but he knew the technique

Haha yeah right.

Gouken knew of the SNH, and knew how to tap into, but he NEVER used it, neither did his master Goutetsu. Akuma is the ONLY one to ever use it, because he let it completely cosume him. Ryu's experience with it happend as a result of a freak accident given he was a student of Hadou.

And stop spouting shit about the Illuminati knowing how to use psycho power, there is ZERO canonical indication that the Illuminati teach and know psycho power. If you have canonical proof that the Illuminati know how to use psycho power, feel free to correct me...

Ok, remind me which one of the two of us has actually been to Capcom of Japan's offices and have actually disscussed the canon with them? That was you right, not me?

Smoke/Mist/Fog Manipulation (#13-14)

This just seems odd since the rest of the list could be at least be described as "elemental". Also, they don't seem all that useful, especially considering you yourself later list "Invisibility (#32, though it should really be #31 unless you accidentally omitted #31 when you posted...meaning that you would have 40 techniques, not 41...but I digress)", which is at least supported by Twelve.

It's made even more queer (as in odd, not gay, I've just being use the word a lot lately because I had to "Ballad of the Sad Cafe" for my English class) by the fact these essentially just "by-products", at least in terms of smoke; as far as I can guess, Water Manipulation (#5-6) could be used to make Mist and/or Fog (I forget whether there is an actual difference or not, but there probably is). Going back to these supposed technique's usefulness or lack there of, they're all really damned weak for "super secret" things in actuality. I mean, if you already have Invisibility and straight-up "Death (#29)" techniques, then why the hell would need something that could, at best, kill someone through slow, probably avoidable suffocation? ...Especially when Gill and Urien could probably chokehold people with one hand.

Gill: "Is the -Saviour- going to have to choke a bitch?"

While I can why you would have the Scientific Trinity (Water, Ice, and Mist/Fog/Water Vapor), even if it does make sense with a probable seperation of Water Manipulation (#5-6) from Ice Manipulation (#3-4), considering that Water Manipulation isn't even officially on there and that #13-14 is so egregiously pathetic...it doesn't really make sense. At least to me.

Yeah, I was going out on a limb there, its not an element and it could easily be created with someone who had the power over fire and water.

Mind (#27) and Mind Manipulation (#35)

Unless you can tell me exactly why you think that these deserve to co-exist as seemingly repetitive categories, then I'm going to have follow the infamous "Highlander" quote: "There can only be one!"

I mean, REALLY, is there anything that actually makes there different?

Going even further, considering that Mind is so generic, especially comparative to a lot of things, and the fact that people that are psychics in-game don't necessary have all the abilities of the mind, i.e. Dhalsim's ability of Telepathy without in Telekinetic feats, besides minor feats of Levitation, I think that we can at least seperate Telepathy and Telekinesis into two different numbers and get rid of these two.

Shit, I didnt relize I listed it twice. I did infact intend that Mind Manipulation was part of "Mind" just forgot I already had mind on there.

Time Manipulation (#36)

There is no, I repeat, NO way that the Illumanti has this, at least at very powerful/fully-mastered (if any of them actually are) technique. If they did, then--chrono loops and "time travel ettiqutte" aside--whatever leader was around in the past probably would have went into the future and bitch-smacked it already so that Gill wouldn't have to wait for the next 200 years.

If they have it, it's not "very" powerful, meaning no out and out time travel. *sighs of relief*

If they have it, it's probably either like some bastardized version of Viewtful Joe's power (which possible considering Capcom did make and that game is quite sucessful) with the power to "stop" time being it's apex.

I don't really like it, but that's mostly because of the scale of Gill's power makes it seems like Illumanti would have either really powerful forms of techniques or none at all, nothing in-between.

Yes, I thought of it as the way its used in Viewtiful Joe. Not an actual ability to control time, only how to slow it down a bit, or move faster through it a bit.

However, I will say that this would probably the most recently and thus sixty-sixth technique or else it seems contradictory that the Illumanti would have the stored brains of all their dead leaders.

Its probaly not immortality given that, but rather just really long lasting, ie check out Oro, there has to be some kinda technique involved in his abilty to live for so long.

Still, even with all the bullshit Edward pulls, I don't really see how this could be a battle technique...assuming that all techniques of the Illumanti are battle techniques....

I actually seriously doubt any of the Illuminati techniques are meant for battle. I mean if you look at them none of them actually have to do with battle, its just the way the chars use them.

I don't think that we have seen any evidence of this in the Illumanti, but they do probably have them.

So...I don't necessarily disagree with the idea itself, but I can say that the name sort of leaves me wanting...since (almost) everything on the list (and countless other things not on it can cause Death).

Thus, I merely ask that you think of a better name if you can; all I can think of is "Spiritual Death", but there's nothing proven that the Illumanti has Ansatsuken one-strike techniques, nevermind ones that send people to "Hell".

I figured since they obviously have techniques that invovle life, they'd natrualy have techniques that involve death as well.

Decay--I'm sorry, but "Dissolve" sounds wierd to me, to say the least (#30