Blackheart team worth noting?

[DPossum]

I enjoy using this team -Zangief, Cable, Blackheart- and was wondering if using blackheart, cable, cyclops is the best top tier variation including cable and blackheart. Appears to be the best one that I can think of that helps BH and cable.

I'm not very interested in playing a blackheart team with storm or sentinel in it. Any input involving the addition to a character balancing out team BH/Cable/XXX would be helpful.

[joe doe]

possum let me give you the best advice ever, DROP CABLE!!!, trust me he will not be able to help from team msp. Use team watts its the best team for blackheart.

[Dasrik]

He said he's not interested in using Storm or Sentinel. Sheesh.

My experience tells me that BH/Cable/Commando actually works better in general than BH/Cable/Cyclops, which contradicts everything I've said before about how that team sucks. On paper, BH/Cable/CapCom is crap but it seems to work itself out if your turtling skills are peak.

[DPossum]

Btw, not interested only reflects my boredom towards using Storm and Sentinel. I enjoy playing low top tier teams instead of the norm(which doesn't mean I can't use them). So that is why I am interested in some low top tier teams that I can have more fun with. Blackheart to me in all aspects is fun and getting rushed down as cable is hella fun for me (I'm insane).
Dasrik: I believe any team that looks like anything on paper can work if a players skills are peak. Which is why I'm interested in a FUN team w/ BH. Is Blackheart even meant to be played as fun?

[BlackHeartKing]

my fun BH teams that don't involve storm or sent are...

BH/Strider/Doom (I think is one is obvious as to why I pick it)
&
BH/Dan/Cyc (I just like this team cuz my Black heart gets better by using it and it's just too good when I catch people with Dan's level 3 super by cancelling from BH's JD) :clap:

[Dasrik]

Is Blackheart even meant to be played as fun?Depends on what you consider fun.

I have fun playing BH because my opponents get unbelievably pissed off when they lose. But it's not fun at all to play with him in the game because I have to be constantly on guard.

I guess I just like to show up scrubs. I lost interest in being the best a long time ago.

[megafighter]

I think both BH/Cable/Cyc and BH/Cable/Capcom are competitive teams. And, for BH, I think Cable may be a better partner than Storm. You have the 150% combo (I am not sure, but I don't think BH Storm can take much more than 80% in any combo) and CAHVB available all the time.

Plus, Sentinel is a very popular second character, and having Cable against him is better than any other option, IMO. BH/Sent/Capcom may be better (Sent/Capcom is too good and the 100% is there, plus unblockable chances and a better assist). However, IMO, Bh/Cable is pretty close or even as good as BH/Sent, since BH builds so much meter, which means Cable will amost always be at his best when playing on this team.

[BlackHeartKing]

whoa Das I protest, you CAN do offense with BH. I do a lot more offense than defense with him.

[chill_effect]

dasrik just curious. Why did u give up on being the best. I only play marvel to be the best. hopefully marvel won't die by the time i do. LOL.

well my blackheart team is amingo, blackheart and storm, or sonson instead of storm. I too like to play low top tier teams. I can't really see myself playing santhrax.

I have icethrax: iceman, sent, commando
frostbite: iceman, storm, sent

those r my two main teams but i'm getting really good with anakaris

my team with anakaris is anakaris, ironman, doom.

Ur prolly thinking why amingo with blackheart.
well if they call out their assist i'll just wavedash towards their assist and do the thc with amingo,storm, and blackheart. amingo does the super with the vine and blackheart does the super when u put him on anti air assist and storm does hailstorm. see they really can't do much since the hailstorm covers ur ass all the while fucking up their assist big time.

this team has no reliable anti air but if u catch a magneto trijumping just do the super that goes to the air with amingo and he'll learn to be more careful.

[Dasrik]

I guess I gave up being the best because I realized that when I accomplished that task, I would be left wondering why I did it.

Being the champion of a video game won't do anything relevant for the world I live in.

[chill_effect]

oh, well i'd do it cause it would be good to have some fucked up memories. you know the crazy shit that happens in marvel. besided u could win money. well whatever works for u thats koo.

just depends on the person. check u l8ters.

[joe doe]

Litsen if its for fun there are many combinations with blackheart that can be worth playing, but competitive wise blackheart has a hard enough time standing against the big 4. Cable is my favorite character in the game, and i have seen how deadly can cable be but only in the hands of justin wong. Cable can get rushdown by 80% of the characters in the game, and blackheart barely survive mags, but storm and sentinel simply makes black almost worthless. i love playing black and cable but when playing the pros i've learned not to put them together in a team cause it wont get you far, trust me.

By the way try blackheart/strider/doom, this team kick's ass it uses black abilities to gain supermeter, then use the meter with strider to beat even the best of them.

[Ghetto Ironman]

LoL Wong's cable is ridiculous

[ATruEVatO]

I think both BH/Cable/Cyc and BH/Cable/Capcom are competitive teams. And, for BH, I think Cable may be a better partner than Storm. You have the 150% combo (I am not sure, but I don't think BH Storm can take much more than 80% in any combo) and CAHVB available all the time.

Plus, Sentinel is a very popular second character, and having Cable against him is better than any other option, IMO. BH/Sent/Capcom may be better (Sent/Capcom is too good and the 100% is there, plus unblockable chances and a better assist). However, IMO, Bh/Cable is pretty close or even as good as BH/Sent, since BH builds so much meter, which means Cable will amost always be at his best when playing on this team.




man these days everyone gets around cable now BH Storm And cyke is better IMO bcz cyke set's up hailstorm, infernxxHOD, BH's Inf.,Air combo to LAxxLS cable gets boring and most storms kill cable. and if ur cable cant block mag'z shit storms even psy's low and high attacks then ur cable screwed bcz most rushers hit you 2 or 3 times then snap out for ur anti air assist, or just ur assist. And if its capcom..LOL good fuckin luck winning that match agnst MSP. And dont even try to switch if u switch u do dat dumbass taunt of cables "Leave It to Me" then snap out agn. so u tell me which char. is better u need a mixture of speed and strength and assistance in a team. You need speed to recover BH's slowness, and turtleness cuz dats all he is is a giant turtle hes koo an all and takes a while to kill. The best BH/Cable team is BH Cable Captain Commando IMO cuz if dey get close to BH send out capcom, InfernoxxHOD but if u want to chip ppl dont do InfernoxxHOD cuz inferno's easy to get out of now. so for chipping do an infernoxxjudgement day (hcb+PP) so dats my thoughts on weather sto0rms better then cable and yes bh storm/cable is tourney wise...

[megafighter]

I don't think Storm is better, simply because BH/Cable is almost a guaranteed 150% out of the opponent's team. You hit once, with Blackheart, and your opponent is now just with half a character and a full assist. Cable can die immediately and it won't matter as much, since you will still have BH with a lead + full assist. And Cable does not die as easily as most people think. You cans ee form vids that he is still realtively popular in the NY tourneys (much more than BH). I think Bh/Cable/Cyc is the best for BH because of that. If you want the best best team, drop it all and play Santhrax...

Storm is better than Cable, don't get me wrong, but Cable is more useful to a BH team

[ATruEVatO]

I don't think Storm is better, simply because BH/Cable is almost a guaranteed 150% out of the opponent's team. You hit once, with Blackheart, and your opponent is now just with half a character and a full assist. Cable can die immediately and it won't matter as much, since you will still have BH with a lead + full assist. And Cable does not die as easily as most people think. You cans ee form vids that he is still realtively popular in the NY tourneys (much more than BH). I think Bh/Cable/Cyc is the best for BH because of that. If you want the best best team, drop it all and play Santhrax...

Storm is better than Cable, don't get me wrong, but Cable is more useful to a BH team



very well said n u provd ur point :clap: :clap:

[StiltMan]

While I'm still a believer that BH/Sent/Commando is the best all-around BH team for a number of reasons, I would probably go with BH/Cable/Commando over BH/Cable/Cyclops. The main difference between the two is that BH/Cable/Commando is all about controlling space (and it does so about as well as any team in the game) while BH/Cable/Cyclops puts BH in the position where he pretty much has to play it more aggressive while Cable is in a bit better position to turtle. That's the main tweak on it... and BH having to play offense is, well, less than optimal. His offensive game is more about pressure and control than it is about really doing a lot of damage. OTOH, Cable is quite nasty on this team, so if you can find a way to make BH work then go for it. All in all, though, BH/Cable/Commando is the sounder team from top to bottom.

If your Cable is helpless against the rush, then your Cable is lazy and too reliant on people making mistakes and doesn't keep on the move enough.

[BlackHeartKing]

I'm more and more convinced that BH/Ironman/Sent is just too damn fun!

[Blackestheart]

blackheart,cable cyclops is the best team

[Blackestheart]

anybody know a sight where i can find recent videos of some good mvc2 matches?

[Magnetic Hail]

anybody know a sight where i can find recent videos of some good mvc2 matches?

http://www.zachd.com/mvc2/ although a lot of casuals, the finals and grand finals vids are good to watch

http://ase.tufts.edu/csa/commy/mvc2/ bunch more mvc2

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84173 these from recent tourney and if you want more ........ hopefully others know good sites o.O or just add me on msn

[Blackestheart]

I'll check these out, thanx man

[joe doe]

hey guys it's been a while i sort of stoped playing my usuall team blackeart, cable & capcom for a while cause i was being hammered. But now days i picked up my team again and im doing well, though concerning which is a better team b/c/capcom from b/c/cyclops i would say b/c/capcom is way better. And there is only one reason for it, OFFENSE, TO ME BLACKHEART/CAPCOM FEELS LIKE STRIDER/DOOM. Once your opponent gets hit by capcom into a heart of darkness he is loosing 35% of life and if is a weak character maybe more. it may not be a lot butif your balckheart is very aggressive you may get your opponent on a regular basis. And besides against sentinel and magneto there is no better assisst than capcom for blackheart.

[Blackestheart]

hey guys it's been a while i sort of stoped playing my usuall team blackeart, cable & capcom for a while cause i was being hammered. But now days i picked up my team again and im doing well, though concerning which is a better team b/c/capcom from b/c/cyclops i would say b/c/capcom is way better. And there is only one reason for it, OFFENSE, TO ME BLACKHEART/CAPCOM FEELS LIKE STRIDER/DOOM. Once your opponent gets hit by capcom into a heart of darkness he is loosing 35% of life and if is a weak character maybe more. it may not be a lot butif your balckheart is very aggressive you may get your opponent on a regular basis. And besides against sentinel and magneto there is no better assisst than capcom for blackheart. Actually I think cyclops is better with blackheart than commando. He stops anything and if you are in the unfortunate situation of getting rushed down commando is useless. Cyclops is also a much better individual char than capcom. By the way guys Blackhearts infinate is very usefull in many ways.

[Nemesis00]

Blackheart's infinite is god awful. It's so bad it killed the pope.

[Dasrik]

if you are in the unfortunate situation of getting rushed down commando is useless. Cyclops is also a much better individual char than capcom. By the way guys Blackhearts infinate is very usefull in many ways.Uh, no. No. A thousand times no.

If you play BH/Commando and you're getting rushed down, you are not playing BH/Commando correctly. The only time BH/Cyke makes it easier than BH/Commando is when you're playing someone with Doom assist, and even then, in the long run Commando's still better.

And I've already discussed why the infinite is useless MANY times.

[Blackestheart]

Uh, no. No. A thousand times no.

If you play BH/Commando and you're getting rushed down, you are not playing BH/Commando correctly. The only time BH/Cyke makes it easier than BH/Commando is when you're playing someone with Doom assist, and even then, in the long run Commando's still better.

And I've already discussed why the infinite is useless MANY times. Whats commando going to do when you're getting rushed down by magneto or storm on speed? When you play against someone whose magnetos rush down is extremely good its almost inevitable to get caught in it. I consider my Blackheart to be pretty descent, well above average. Normally I can get away from being rushed down, by staying in the air. But once in a while a magneto comes along thats way to fast, and that's where cyclops comes in, to give a little breathing room. Hey Dasrik I'm new to shoryuken, I know you have written it before, but can you tell me why you think Blackhearts infinite is useless :confused:

[Deathfist]

Dasrik I'm new to shoryuken, I know you have written it before, but can you tell me why you think Blackhearts infinite is useless :confused:
I think I'll take a stab at why he believes the infinite isn't worth it. I'll also mention some good parts.

=Arguement for the infinite
+The infinite sets up tag combos AND the risk of landing ugly DHCs. Count this as 2 points.
+You can make your opponent look bad [useless, they should look dead]
+You build okay meter (see arguement against)
++new As a side note, you can also score the infinite of the Capcom beta assist. [Dlk+capcom, dmk sj cancell, hk or drop Capcom and immediately sj hk. Both work]

If you don't abuse it [as in do more than 2 reps] it can be very useful as you give your assist character time to leave. You can now score a combo that tags in another character. Tagging in the likes of Sent, Mags, Ironman, or Cable is liable to peace out a character [and in the case of Ironman might even end his game].


=Arguement against infinite
-The maximum damage you'll do to your opponent is 60%.
-The opponent gains meter at almost twice the rate you do for hitting them.
-There are far meaner things you can do in less time than it takes to infinite for the full 45 hits.
-Capcom assist blows them back and sets up something like Inferno XX Armageddon [whiffed]DHC HSF.
-Infinite reliance often means Cyc assist. This means that you might have to be slightly more stationary near your opponent to take advantage. There is also the fact the space Cyc controls can sometimes be controlled by BH's pokes, and your head is less protected without Capcom. Capcom also makes it more dificult for Sent to tapdance on your head. [Of course, if you can control your demons he shouldn't be there anyways neutralizing this.]

In other words, you maxed their meter without dusting a character. This creates a potentially unnecessary critical breakdown point. It can triple compound a later error. It can even cause other ones as the other character might have more lattitude. If he pays you back for the hit he might do what you should have (killed someone), and has the firepower to do it thanks to you. This is assuming that he didn't have that capability before. If he did, the arguement is mildly moot. Your next character gets guardbroken into the supers he shouldn't have had, and you're now behind possibly 2.5 characters to 1

Example: BH, Cable, Cyc vs Mags, Cable, Sent-a
BH infinites Mags, tags in Cable, Their mags dies (I'm being lenient). Your meterless character [BH or Cable] is now staring down a loaded Cable. This is not good.

In conclusion
I don't think it's a good idea to rely on the infinite as your method of doing damage. If you feel the need to use it, restrict it's use to 2 reps MAXIMUM. That's it. To each his own I guess.

[Nemesis00]

/\ in a fucking nutshell

[BlackHeartKing]

Just for the record, there IS a time when I would say go for the infinite.

And that's when you're playin against team SIN and the person has cable on point. If you're playin a GOOD cable and ya get him bouncin in demons, and you're no where near that 2nd bar to cancel and kill him with, go for the infinite.

I'd say it's more important to kill off that cable and give them meter, than it is to do like a third of a bar worth of damage and still have to deal with him.

Especially if you're confident against playin against Sent with your BH like I am.

[Deathfist]

Blackheart King, good point. When fighting a Cable, however he dies, he MUST die.

[Blackestheart]

Blackheartking and Deathfist you both make graet points, and I pretty much agree with what you both say. It sounds to me that Blackhearts infinate isn't useless. I never said you should abuse it, and it isn't my main focus of attack. I'm aware that a team that has Cable 2nd is an obvious exception, Cable is an exception to many ideas in this game. Another possible scenario is if you have been laying a good beating on their assist you can snap him back(preferably their anti-air assist). Or if you do already have say 3 bars of super meter at the end of the infinate and you have Cable 2nd(like I do), switch to Cable and AHVB hime twice. Follow that up with a guard break and he's down 40% life just like that. Simple, yet effective. As far as Capcom being a better fit for Blackheart, in the end, I'd much rather have Cyclops to rely on. He's a much better individual character.

[Dasrik]

Magneto and Storm rushing you down is something that should be prevented, because if it happens, it doesn't matter if you're Blackheart/Cyclops, Jin/Gambit or Sentinel/Commando, you're relying on guessing.

The reason I prefer Commando overall to Cyclops are twofold: 1. space control - Cyclops is a helluva lot easier to get around than Commando; 2. damage - Psylocke's going to get hammered eventually even if Mags/Storm doesn't. It's as simple as that.

[kalis]

I have gotten it done in practice. Edit:~below~
It is difficult on people because the RH demons have to connect.
In the corner when the demons connect 1.xxHOD
Then at the end when they are falling - 2.standing RH.
When those connect, 3.call out projectile or capture assist(I use Silver cause the shiruken last long enough for me to call RH demons), while that is connecting 4.RHxxHOD, repeat until energy bar is done.

If this combo has already been posted just ignore this post.

[Blackestheart]

I just saw in a video blackheart did an inferno heart of darkness (in the corner) and before he landed he dashed back. Is this possible only in the corner, or can you do it anywhere. This sure would help against Cable.

[Dasrik]

I have gotten it done in practice. Edit:~below~
It is difficult on people because the RH demons have to connect.
In the corner when the demons connect 1.xxHOD
Then at the end when they are falling - 2.standing RH.
When those connect, 3.call out projectile or capture assist(I use Silver cause the shiruken last long enough for me to call RH demons), while that is connecting 4.RHxxHOD, repeat until energy bar is done.I'm not sure how this combo is possible, seeing as in Flying Screen state you can't call assists, and the state is PROLONGED when roundhouse demons connect.

But even given that it IS possible, the opponent still has plenty of time to shake out. It's not worth it.

[Dirty]

He said he's not interested in using Storm or Sentinel. Sheesh.

My experience tells me that BH/Cable/Commando actually works better in general than BH/Cable/Cyclops, which contradicts everything I've said before about how that team sucks. On paper, BH/Cable/CapCom is crap but it seems to work itself out if your turtling skills are peak.

It does more than work itself out Dasrik, it's top notch if you have a great since of distanceing too. The biggest thing other Blackheart players do I have seen, is run a way. Contrary to popular beleife Blackheart rushes down very well. It isnt so much a rush down as it is pushing them back to the corner as it were. You get a player in the corner with Blackheart...even using BH/Cable/Cap(My team), there isnt much even Cables can do. If you time f.k demons correctly off of the super jump, and know were to place them off the first set, then the second set off of the air dash - you can keep them pretty much locked down. Make sure you have more life than they do once you put them into this position, cause it will cause them to fight for there respective characters freedom. In that sense, they get caught by something nasty. i.e Infinant, or Capcom assist into Inferno/Heart of Darkness. Even still.. BH is a meter builder for Cable; so play it how you see fit.

Now, how you ask do you rush that shit down with Blackheart? Especially against Capcom assist/Sent or Doom helpers? That my friends I leave up to you. The only way to get passed them is "YOUR" timing skills. You need to know when to air dash over behind cap's corridor, and know how high you have to be when you air dash over Doom or Sent. But the keys for rushing it down once you can time getting over assists is this.


1. Falling down, l.k, l.k.( Hit the ground ) crouch l.k, l.k /w cap helper
2. If that Hits, take it from there whatever you wanna do.


Or.


1. Falling down, l.k, l.k.( Hit the ground ) crouch l.k, l.k /w cap helper
2. If they block, jump f.p demons, quick s.j backwards f.k demons.( This keeps your assist being punished if they pushblock even. )

You can also molest your cap helper while dashing backwards with BH, and immediatly go into inferno HOD afterward. Leaving CAP out for that brief second will usually bait a person to where you can punish them. Make sure not to use this strat when they have a couple meter though. Bad Idea. Normal jump fp works really well in space control again storm, sent and mags too.


Late'





-Dizznurty:cool:

[StiltMan]

While I'm still a believer that BH/Sent/Commando is the best all-around BH team for a number of reasons, I would probably go with BH/Cable/Commando over BH/Cable/Cyclops.

Heh heh. I went and said this and then used BH/Cable/Cyclops instead of Commando in the last PDX tourney. The losers' finals is on Zach's side. I did a beautiful job handing Theo the second and third games with this team after winning three in a row with it and before going to a bit of unexplained lunacy with Sent/Cable/Doom.

However, I did a somewhat nice trick in the first game where I counter-AHVB'ed and guard broke Theo's Cable off of the counter, which basically proved decisive in the game. Second game I had a brain fart and missed a chance to shoot both his Magneto and Sentinel to death, and in the third I had another and countered in Cyclops fairly early, and never took the chance to get another character in really. Fourth game... not real relevant to this forum.

Should've probably played BH a little more aggressively in this series, which contributed a fair amount to why I lost. However, the mistakes were what really killed me in the end, which will do it to you every time. One was a matter of execution, the other was a matter of complete failure of situation awareness.

[joe doe]

MMMan!, it's been a long time that i have not been in this forum. Which, by the way why you guys are still fighting over which team is better, to set the record straight black, cable, capcom is the best team from the two.And yes, is not only possible but very usefull to rush down with black and is not as difficult as people think. 'cause noone expect for black to rushdown so it gives you a slight edge, since people don't know how to counter it. To be frank to this day i have not seen a decent black either on a vid or in the arcade. And i have been to some of the top arcades in the east coast, most people just throw demonds or piggies but do not do any combos or cross-ups.

Anyway i was playing sanford the other day with my team (black,cable,capcom) and though i played him five times of which he beat me horribly. The six time however i beat him, every one was like, wow?! Even i was like, damn did i beat him with this team. Oh, and he had one of his top teams mags, storm, sentinel, so you know he wasn't playing around. I think the reason i got him that one time was because i stoped every one of his movement by playing very carefully and watching my every move cause even a jab out of place it could have ment an infinite or somthing worst. Anyway the reason i told you guys about that was to let you guys know it black, cable, capcom can compete and even win top teams if you get your game straight.

[Blackestheart]

Should've probably played BH a little more aggressively in this series, which contributed a fair amount to why I lost. However, the mistakes were what really killed me in the end, which will do it to you every time. One was a matter of execution, the
other was a matter of complete failure of situation awareness.[/QUOTE]

I saw your matches. You played Blackheart pretty well. But your right, you should have been more aggressively. Normal jumping and handing out jabs, using his pokes more. Like I said Cyclops is better with Blackheart than Commando.

[Dasrik]

Do we have to have the Cyclops vs. Commando argument again? It's getting real fucking old.

[ATruEVatO]

yea please stop arguing it all works out with wat ppl want theres othere characters for ppl's liking's like i dont like capcom or cyke i use sonson lmao cuz shes funny as hell!! but yea ummm i was reding bout the HOD semi infinite it only works if ur BY HIMSELF!! in the corner so yea not much use cuz we all know he's not that great by himself right dasrik? but yea im pretty sure he has to be by himself but if not then forget i said anything..

[Blackestheart]

Especially now that I found Blackhearts reset, he is. You can't do it with commando. I played today and had 12 wins against a few guys that I ussualy give me good competition. I smoked them 12 straight. Man his reset is too good.

[Blackestheart]

yea please stop arguing it all works out with wat ppl want theres othere characters for ppl's liking's like i dont like capcom or cyke i use sonson lmao cuz shes funny as hell!! but yea ummm i was reding bout the HOD semi infinite it only works if ur BY HIMSELF!! in the corner so yea not much use cuz we all know he's not that great by himself right dasrik? but yea im pretty sure he has to be by himself but if not then forget i said anything.. Yeah, it only works when Bh is by himself, however, you can do it anywhere on the screen. When you get the demons attached do a team super. Do it again before they hit the ground, and repeat until you have no more supers. oh yeah, you can even do a an inferno after the last super.

[Dasrik]

Blackheart's not crap by himself per se, he just can't do any damage.

And I'll take sure damage over resets any day of the week.

[Blackestheart]

No, blackhearts not that bad by himself. You're right he has a hard time dishing out damage whether he's alone, or with a full team. He's just not as manouverable as the top4. You have to be patient with him. You have to be constantly moving . Never stay on the ground. His jabs in the air have a lot of priority. If you opponent makes a mistake and is caught in demons, do a reset for a couple of reps.It's sure damage,they can't block it.

[StiltMan]

No, blackhearts not that bad by himself. You're right he has a hard time dishing out damage whether he's alone, or with a full team. He's just not as manouverable as the top4. You have to be patient with him. You have to be constantly moving . Never stay on the ground. His jabs in the air have a lot of priority. If you opponent makes a mistake and is caught in demons, do a reset for a couple of reps.It's sure damage,they can't block it.

:wtf: Excuse me? BH can't dish out damage as part of a full team? It's pretty much taken for granted by every player who knows what's what in the state of Oregon that if my BH hits you with anything half solid at the front of Watts, you're not going to survive it unless I just don't want to take BH off point instead of executing the DHC on you.

However, curiosity compels me to ask... what reset are you talking about?

[Blackestheart]

:wtf: Excuse me? BH can't dish out damage as part of a full team? It's pretty much taken for granted by every player who knows what's what in the state of Oregon that if my BH hits you with anything half solid at the front of Watts, you're not going to survive it unless I just don't want to take BH off point instead of executing the DHC on you.

However, curiosity compels me to ask... what reset are you talking about? All i'm saying is that Bh doesn't get as many oppertunities to do damage as a(well played) top4 do. The reset is easy. As soon as you get him caught in the air with the forward demons,he will bounce and hit the floor once. right after that(next to him) do a crouching short with cyclops. Super jump and hit him again with the demons. repeat a couple of times, or mix it up with an infinate, and end with an inferno heart of darkness. Does crazy damage. Just don't abuse it, people tend to find it really cheap. :rolleyes:

[StiltMan]

Well, there's a big difference. Magneto can chain most any hit at low to medium altitude into basically anything he wants, and he's limited to hypergrav-tempest combos higher up in the air. Storm can chain almost any hit anywhere on the screen into Storm/Sentinel DHC, but if she doesn't have Sentinel behind her, her ability to do damage is far more limited on her own. Cable can shoot for one meter high in the air and for three or more near the ground. Sentinel has full screen reach on the ground and about half screen reach in the air, but makes up for it with a quick fly mode.

BH, by comparison, can chain most ranged hits from the air and any poke on the ground into killing someone outright. His ability to do a ton of damage at close range in the air is somewhat limited, but he makes up for this by being able to control the area around him as well or better than anybody in the game and making himself about as physically untouchable as you get this side of a loaded Strider. There are a lot of things that you just flat out cannot do on a BH that's got a good DHC (like Watts) sitting around without getting a character killed, from a lot more angles than people realize.

[Blackestheart]

Sure, it definately helps to dish out damage with a good DHC like Storm. I just don't do it because I have Cable second and we all know how good his dhc is. You exactly proved my point in your first paragraph. Sure you chain a damaging combo with his crouching short, but people expect that so they watch out for it. And you're right, Blackheart does control space better than any other character in the game. That's what makes him so fun to play. Let me know how that reset works out for you.

[StiltMan]

:wtf: You can chain stuff off of his ranged air attacks too. It's not _just_ the cr. short...

[Blackestheart]

:wtf: You can chain stuff off of his ranged air attacks too. It's not _just_ the cr. short... Of coarse you can chain stuff off his ranged air attacks, but his crouching short is his bread and butter. :rolleyes:

[Blackestheart]

Hey Dasrik, do you know Blackhearts timing for multiple infernos before HOD? I can get 2 of them easy, but going for 3 and ending it with a HOD is difficult. I did it a couple of times, but it's very hard. Any help would be appreciated. Thanx.

[Blackestheart]

What, no love Dasrik?

[Dasrik]

It's not that, it's that I honestly don't know.

[Blackestheart]

It's not that, it's that I honestly don't know. Alright, thanx for letting me know.

[StiltMan]

Well, it's only possible to do off of certain assists or on certain characters. BH can do multiple infernos to another BH before HOD relatively easy off of Commando, if you through the first inferno fairly quickly off the Commando hit (faster than you normally would), although if you try more than two of them you're asking for it to whiff. It's also not too hard to get the Watts DHC off of it either, you just cancel to Sentinel right after BH starts to come down from the second inferno. I don't know of any other chars that you can multiple-inferno off of Commando, because it has to be a heavy one that's going to fall at a low arc like BH that won't also fall quickly enough that he'll recover from Commando before his horizontal speed slows enough to inferno him like Sentinel and Juggernaut do.

It's easier to do it off of Cyclops. Row had a BH/Sent/Cyclops combo in a video where you double-inferno off of Cyclops and then tag Sentinel and HSF them off of that.

The timing for HOD off of multiple infernos is the same as it would be off a single one, in terms of cancelling the inferno and getting the HOD.

I've been able to repeat both of these to some degree, but the timing on them is so insanely dicey that I would never try either of them in a tournament. It's precise enough that you I'm not sure a human could really do it reliably under pressure.

[Blackestheart]

I wasn't sure about the timing. I'll try the one you suggested. Thanx.

[Deathfist]

BH, by comparison, can chain most ranged hits from the air and any poke on the ground into killing someone outright.

By most ranged attacks do you mean his sj hp, hk, or something I'm missing?

There are a lot of things that you just flat out cannot do on a BH that's got a good DHC (like Watts) sitting around without getting a character killed, from a lot more angles than people realize.
What are some of these things that'll get someone killed that most angles people don't see?

[StiltMan]

Well, this is, in particular, a statement that BH can hit the Watts DHC off of a lot more things than just poking somebody.

If you jump in and run into a j. fierce, BH can kill you off of it.

If you do something stupid like a jumping viper beam and get hit by a sj. rh, BH can kill you off of it.

If you get poked, BH can kill you off of it.

If you get hit by just about any kind of normal chain that leads to a Commando hit at all, BH can kill you off of it. If you get hit by any kind of aerial hit that BH can hit a st. short/fwd/Commando off of (and yes, this juggles pretty trivially off of sj. rh hits), BH can kill you off of it. If you start super jumping around and mashing on buttons to build meter and BH stays on the ground, he can kill you at any time off of an inferno into the DHC from there. If you try countering Cable at the wrong time into an inferno/HOD that's chipping at another character, thinking that you'll take the hit and shoot him to death, BH can DHC to Sentinel and it will hit you a lot more often than not. If you get over a j. fierce and try to hit BH in order to make the fierce demons go away, and he jumps up to meet you and pokes you back into the demons, he can kill you off of that. If you try to dash under BH on a sj and he hits you with rh right underneath hit and then airdashes over to where it lands, he can kill you off of that. Heck, theoretically if Magneto airdashes over the top, you can stick out a short inferno for him, let him run into that, and then poke or rh him when he comes down to the ground into Commando and kill him that way. (This is the only one of these things that I haven't personally done, but I suspect it's very possible.)

The main thing that BH can't do is chain into sj. supers and then DHC from that. That's the main thing that the main four have on him. However, he can chain a lot of his ranged aerial attacks into things on the ground, unlike basically everyone else who lacks a fast aerial super, and he can control enough space that his ability to defend himself from the stuff that other people can do in return and kill people for enough slip-ups that he's got a lot more life left in him than people give him credit for.

[Deathfist]

If you get over a j. fierce and try to hit BH in order to make the fierce demons go away, and he jumps up to meet you and pokes you back into the demons, he can kill you off of that.

A few questions:
1]How easy is it to set up a situation like this
2]How easy is it to exploit this
3]What are the best ways and combos to exploit this for the kill

[StiltMan]

A few questions:
1]How easy is it to set up a situation like this
2]How easy is it to exploit this
3]What are the best ways and combos to exploit this for the kill

Setting it up is not that hard. People try to go over BH j. fierce all the time. The most common case has them trying to hit you and then they get hit in the back by the demons' return. The problem is, trying to combo that into Commando after block stun just isn't going to happen much in that situation.

However, sometimes your Magnus players will learn, hey, if you get over the demons, wait for them and don't try to do anything until they're off the screen. This is fairly smart of them when they do, but if they start getting too predictable about it, this is when you can meet them in the air as they're going over and hit them. If they're normal jumping, that's just gross... something is probably going to happen that will get them hit, whether it's a tail knocking them back into demons or a guard break into demons. Either way, if you get the tail off without getting hit, you can pretty much call Commando after a brief delay at that point and trust that something's probably going to happen that'll send them flying. After that, it's just a matter of getting used to the idea that comboing demons into Commando works the same as comboing anything else into Commando. The demons will keep them bouncing just long enough that you'll get back to the ground (this is why the slight delay on Commando call is necessary) in time to do something off of Commando.

It _is_ something of a trick-shot tactic that probably won't happen much. I think I've gotten this particular situation to happen exactly once in my life, and that was in the afore-mentioned case of a Magneto player who was doing a lot of turtle-in-my-face tactics. There aren't that many who are going to do that, but it's a good thing to keep in your back pocket for the ones that are, because turtle-in-your-face Magnus is probably more annoying and difficult to deal with than the more aggressive ones that at least will usually forget to block. :sweat:

[Deathfist]

Snip:
This reminds me of a combo I invented last week Sunday.

Opponent superjumps and air-dashes towards you, and you do this...
1]Wait till you no longer have drones on screen
2]Call Sentinel-y when the sj icon disappears [or is about to disappear] and immediately sj lp,lk, micropause, airdash, lk, mp, mk, hk.
-The chain knocks them down into the drones
-The hk hits them off the drones
-They're bouncing meaning that they are at risk big time.
3]Continuations of the Combo:
a-Jumping hk again, tag out to Cable/Ironman/Storm
b-Judgment day, DHC HSF [much better and more stable in this situation than one might think. DHC in Sentinel between the 29th and 35th hit.]. You have the option to launch [you MIGHT have to do a short dash; not likely though].
c-Launch, AC
d-Standing Hk, tag out to Cable/Ironman/Storm
e-HOD or InfernoXXHOD

The concept for this combo was born from the following combo. I'm sure someone thought of it first, but I had nobody to ask about this one, so I invented it myself [by taking the classic sj cancel combo and inserting drones into it to enhance it's power...].

Dlk, [optional call of Sent-y], dmp [+optional call of Sent-y], [optional call of Sent-y], sj cancel lp, pause, airdash, lk, mp, mk, hk, land, and do whatever you want [they're bouncing from the hk]
-Basically, you select the best optional call point of Sentinel drones among the ones I mentioned earlier, and do your worst.

This can get brutal really fast. You've done 35-45% damage before you've even got the chance to super their ass. The potential after the initial combo for extra damage is almost unlimited.

[Niloklives]

guys, I've been playing BH for the last 7 or 8 months. Some of the stuff you guys are saying is new to me, some od iys not but it's all good info. my question is have people tried using juggs w/BH and Sent? I play against a lot of scrubs so I haven't been able to really test this team out. but I tend to use juggs dash assist and BH's zoning to keep up the pressure and work up the meter my only worry with this team thus far is a solid cable which I've yet to encounter. your thoughts on this would be greatly appriciated.

[Deathfist]

my question is have people tried using juggs w/BH and Sent?I don't think I've tried that exact configuration. I might have, I'm not sure. You have Sent-BH zoning tactics in that team that can get kind of annoying fast, you have Sent-BH keep-out that can get annoying as well, you have my new anti-sj combo which I just found can be done alittle bit higher than I first thought it could, etc...

You also have semi-safe DHC outs for if you happen to have your headcrush blocked, juggernaut punches with sent drones cannot be punished because of the drones protecting your recovery in most cases, you can call Sent-y, jump, and splash the person, and you will probably recover before they can punish you [and if they try they risk eating the drones meaning that you can possibly combo them...]
Glitching Juggernaut isn't hard in this team. jump back and forth hitting hp just before you land [so it doesn't come out], then fire a random super and DHC out before it touches or advances past the first hit into Sentinel

The risks you face...
-MM-a buster assist pierces armor instantly rendering the Jugg-b assist useless.
-All 3 characters as you mentioned are vulnerable to Cable.
-Drone assist tends to abort juggernaut punch
-My Sentinel has aborted headcrushes by canceling whatever I'm doing into normal lk drones and pulling them down into the path of the super.
-A team like MM, Cable, Jin would do okay against this. Even on a countercall, Juggernaut can't hit MM.
-Storm-a aborts Jugg-a but takes awhile to come out.
-If you fall behind against a Storm, the Storm can run from you. If you get a good
-Due to the size of the characters
-Spiral MIGHT pose a problem. Learn how to guardcancel out of the trap or you're fucked. There is one really cool thing here though.

Potential substitutions
=Juggernaut for...
Storm-b [BH, Storm-b, Sent-y], AA[is Capcom assist, then Cyc-b,], Cable [BH, Sentinel, Cable], Doom [Doom-b, Sentinel-y/a(that order of preference), BH-b]
Magneto-a [Magneto-a, BH-b, Sent-a/y("a" if your Mags is stronger)/y(if your BH is stronger], Ironman [BH, IM-b, Sent-a/y(I prefer y)],
=BH for...
No one personally, but if I did and I kept Juggernaut, I'd grab either Storm or Doom.
=Sentinel for..
Nobody. Under no circumstances would I remove Sentinel unless I also remove Juggernaut. The only remote possible replacement would be with Storm.

My opinion is this. Is this a good team? Maybe, but only use it in casual play. A tournament player will use Cable, Storm, Sentinel, etc... and you're screwed.
Hmm, I might wanna try that team out in casuals. Keep in mind alot of people now like to abuse the tournament characters to the detriment of further advancement. I kinda do that too sometimes.

[Niloklives]

yeah, the team is fun for casual play, because getting tagged by deamons usually means eating a glitched juggernaut punch and quite a bit more if it's in the corner. and the drones offer amaxing cover for juggs and BH. I'm still coordinating the assists with sentinel up front, but yeah this team is really good at punishing careless people. I haven't fought a good cable yet so I haven't had to deal with al the various contingiencies. Still it's a fun team that puts a fantastic amount of pressure on people who aren't sure what to expect.

[ribu]

I've got a BH team question:

Would Blackheart/ Dr. Doom/ Strider be good to use at all?

[StiltMan]

BH/Strider/Doom is probably the oldest Strider team in the game. Pretty much entirely built on a chipping offense where the main issue is to keep people from running away from either Strider or Doom. This was back in the day when people would've started Doom instead of either Strider or BH, and when basically the entire game was based on runaway, lockdowns, and chip damage, while many games came down to the time limit. This team is probably older than either Alex Valle's old Strider/Doom/Commando or Clockwork's usual team.

If you're going to use it, you'd better be ridiculously good at playing without an AAA and in chasing people down. It has basically zero offense anywhere on the team that isn't based on chip damage. It's going to lose badly to Sentinel/Cyclops like most teams that rely on either Doom or Tron for their control game. I frankly would rather use BH/Doom/AAA if I was going to combine BH and Doom on a team, with the AAA probably being Commando, Cyclops, or Guile.

[ribu]

Well the thing is my Doom or my Strider are terrible, but BH is one of of the few higher up characters I actually wanted to learn. I was just trying to get a good chip damage team with him and I naturaly though of Doom/Strider.

But my other idea was BH/Magneto/AAA, but I've heard before that BH doesn't go good with Magneto at all.

Really I want to have BH on my team,but without using Cap or Sent unless nessacry to do anything with him.

[BlackHeartKing]

I actually don't think BH/doom against sent/cyc is a landslide victory for sent. I say that goes in blackhearts favor if you play it right

[StiltMan]

Well, if BH doesn't have at least something by way of AAAs to give Sentinel a solid reason to worry about getting over head, BH/Doom is in pretty bad shape against Sent/Cyclops. Sent/Cyclops over BH's head is death if Doom is all you've got to throw into his way. Yes, it's quite true that getting there even without an AAA to stop him can be tricky, but if he's patient and relentless enough he'll get there eventually, and then you're basically done. There are a lot of matchups where Sent/Cyclops is even meaner than Sent/Commando, and a Doom-based team is one of them.

[jaded]

dpossum: gief, cable, BH is one of the best BH teams in the game (or maybe I should say one of the best cable teams in the game).

BH is Cable's best assist at a distance (lock down trap for Cable that is second to none).

(metal) gief is Cable's best close up assist. Comes out no matter what, Gief stops everything (except another metal gief), hits on both sides, and best of all, it sets up 3x aHVB with EASE.



I've wrecked many GOOD Magneto teams (particularly MSP) with just using metal gief + BH. It's just plain scary.


stick to it ;)