Question about turtles...

[shmy]

This is not going to be about how to beat turtles, because it's obvious, you can't beat them. This is more a question about what players feel about their skill...

Most turtles aren't fancy (obviously,) and they don't do many jaw dropping combos, or tricks. In fact, they're probably happy just knowing how to do ducking Fierce xx super with Sagat.

But on the flip side, most turtles are PATIENT, which is a good thing btw, and they do have knowledge on their characters pokes & range, etc. Anything that helps them sit back and give the least amount of effort to win.

My question is, would you consider these players good? I've seen turtle players sit back, get on a small streak beating players who can do the craziest things!

Is it about style of play & difficulty, or WINS? I'm starting to at least understand why people turtle, but I will never cross over to the dark side! I just won't hate as much.

[SoleEMU]

Is it about style of play & difficulty, or WINS?

depends where and why you are playing... if it's a tourney, and competition is rough, turtling can kick ass, but if it's for fun, go for combos and shiet dag nabbit!

I do give turtles props though, it's a combination of knowledge about the game (normals, rc and stuff) and lotsa patience...

[box]

If the turtler is winning, then he deserves it. He found a strategy that his opponents cannot overcome and he's using it. That's what every sports team does.

Why pull off crazy shit that's gonna make you lose, when you can actually implement a strategy that will help you win. You don't see Basketball teams going for 360/windmill slam dunks in basketball games. And you don't see football teams throwing hail marys every single play. Sure it's crazy shit, but it's just poor strategy that will make you lose the game.

It's a game about winning. Not a style contest. It's like football... not Figure skating.

[GunterJPN]

I will never cross over to the dark side!

The dark side that you are speaking of is the WINNING side.

Turtling isn't bad. Rushdown isn't good. They're just different styles. In competition, you do what it takes to win. Good players make adjustments to their styles in order to win. You can't rushdown all the time if you want to win, just like you can't turtle all the time. What you should TRY to do... is WIN all the time. Don't worry about if it's by turtling, or if it's by rushdown, or if it's not FUN for the opponent (inside tip: it's not SUPPOSED to be... the FUN in competition is in the WINNING), or if it's the "dark side." Worry about the win.

[shmy]

I agree with Gunter's post, that a good balance makes you better prepared for any given situation. I'll admit, I'm "Gung Ho," and very im-patient, so turtling and me don't really get along. Also, since I'm admitting my faults, I don't play to win, I do play to do cool shit! Which is why I'm always in C-Groove. I should play to win more often. Then again, I don't play tournies, so playing to win doesn't give me a pot of gold at the end. So there, that is why I am biased, but like I said, I'm starting to see why people turtle.

Look, I'm playing for fun, which is what we all should be playing for, I know I am not going to make a living off of this game, but it would be nice if I could make a name for myself. And all I'm saying is that turtles are un-known. You've all heard of all the top players, no need to mention them again, but we never hear of the turtle players. It's like, "Oh, there's John Choi," and then "Oh, there's the guy who turtles all the time." The guy who turtles all the time could have just beaten John Choi, and I don't think anyone would care. Or "Hey I just heard that Turtle Fiend just killed Combo Fiend!" When would you ever hear that?

So winning in all actuallity, isn't that important to me. Because if you don't win with some sort of style, know one will care. Now if I were getting paid per win, then shit, I would turtle all the time.

Here Box, let me put it in terms of football for you, since you like to compare CVS2 to sports. Terrell Owens would be the opposite of a turtle, he's flashy. Troy Brown is a turtle, he's fundamentally sound. Troy Brown has the ring, but which player would you rather be?

My original question btw, is do you think turtles are good players. NOT is turtling wrong, of course it's not wrong, it's part of the game.

[SoleEMU]

I don't play to win, I do play to do cool shit! Which is why I'm always in C-Groove.

:clap: same here

but as they say.... mmmmmmmmmmmm i love turtle :lame:

but pick up kim in C, he has the best cancels and juggles :tup:

[box]

I agree with Gunter's post, that a good balance makes you better prepared for any given situation. I'll admit, I'm "Gung Ho," and very im-patient, so turtling and me don't really get along. Also, since I'm admitting my faults, I don't play to win, I do play to do cool shit! Which is why I'm always in C-Groove. I should play to win more often. Then again, I don't play tournies, so playing to win doesn't give me a pot of gold at the end. So there, that is why I am biased, but like I said, I'm starting to see why people turtle.

Look, I'm playing for fun, which is what we all should be playing for, I know I am not going to make a living off of this game, but it would be nice if I could make a name for myself. And all I'm saying is that turtles are un-known. You've all heard of all the top players, no need to mention them again, but we never hear of the turtle players. It's like, "Oh, there's John Choi," and then "Oh, there's the guy who turtles all the time." The guy who turtles all the time could have just beaten John Choi, and I don't think anyone would care. Or "Hey I just heard that Turtle Fiend just killed Combo Fiend!" When would you ever hear that?

So winning in all actuallity, isn't that important to me. Because if you don't win with some sort of style, know one will care. Now if I were getting paid per win, then shit, I would turtle all the time.

Here Box, let me put it in terms of football for you, since you like to compare CVS2 to sports. Terrell Owens would be the opposite of a turtle, he's flashy. Troy Brown is a turtle, he's fundamentally sound. Troy Brown has the ring, but which player would you rather be?

My original question btw, is do you think turtles are good players. NOT is turtling wrong, of course it's not wrong, it's part of the game.


Shmy: In answering your question: Are turtlers good players? Yes and no. The answer depends on whether or not they are winning. Cause good players are the ones that win regardless of whether they turtle or not. So if the turtler wins, then he's a good player. If he loses, then he sucks.

And guys like John Choi are known around the community because they win... not because they don't turtle. There's turtlers out there like Justin Wong who wins. If someone rushes down, but loses all the time, no one is gonna remember his name. If someone turtles and wins all the time (I.E Justin Wong), then people are gonna remember him. People remember the winners, regardless of whether they turtle or not.

And to be honest I'd rather be the football player with the ring. Because winning a championship is a lot harder and more prestigious than being a flashy player.

[Higher-Jin]

This is not going to be about how to beat turtles, because it's obvious, you can't beat them.


You can beat turtles

there is absolutely no shame in turtling and it's just as skillfull as rushdown.

I think you lack experience.

It's fact that you can beat someone who turtles, just look at Wong vs. Daigo.

Just try throws, command throws, overheads, and in this game short jumps to break a turtle's shell.

And i play guile in cvs2, i also play zangief in mvc2 you'll find that most people who are good at turtling are good at rushdown aswell.

[shmy]

BTW, before I start, I'm not a "Rush-Down" player by any means...

Box

Fair enough you stated your point with some valid facts to back it up, and winning does gain you notoriety. But I'm just a flashy guy, so I don't think I personally will start to turtle, but I'll give turtler's their respect due, and consider them patient & knowledgable, but not as skillful. Definitely more patient.

Sports example again, Le Bron James is skillful (flashy), and John Stockton is knowledgable (turtle.) NOW I DEFINITELY KNOW, which player you would rather be, if not for the short shorts alone!

Still can't believe you would rather be Troy Brown over T.O. !!!

[shmy]

You can beat turtles

there is absolutely no shame in turtling and it's just as skillfull as rushdown.

I think you lack experience.


That was intended as a joke, of course you can beat turtles, if you weren't able to beat turtles, then everyone would turtle, and everyone would win, and that is impossible.

I don't think I lack experience, buddy, but thanks for your concern.

Once again my question was do you think turtle players are good, I should have said skilled, so from now on I will change that to skilled...and you answered that when you said, "Yes, just as skillful as rush-down players." Thanks.

[Higher-Jin]

BTW, before I start, I'm not a "Rush-Down" player by any means...

Box

Fair enough you stated your point with some valid facts to back it up, and winning does gain you notoriety. But I'm just a flashy guy, so I don't think I personally will start to turtle, but I'll give turtler's their respect due, and consider them patient & knowledgable, but not as skillful. Definitely more patient.

Sports example again, Le Bron James is skillful (flashy), and John Stockton is knowledgable (turtle.) NOW I DEFINITELY KNOW, which player you would rather be, if not for the short shorts alone!

Still can't believe you would rather be Troy Brown over T.O. !!!


On the contrary.

Try being a turtle in mvc2 see how far that gets you.

It's hard to block shit,

Flashy shit is just flashy not more skillful it takes more dedication but it's the application of the flashy combo or low tier that makes it skillful.

i mean what are you playing?

You don't get meter for being flashy, whoever is winning is more skillfull at the game.

Yea it takes dedication and it's entertaining to watch myke z pull off a flashy combo and it does take skill to do (and more dedication than normal) but you should know when to draw the line between a combo/set up that's practical and a combo/set up that isn't useful/does more damage/won't fool anyone and is just fancy.

IMO u shouldn't use flashy comboes or low tiers for that matter as a excuse for losing (not saying you are tho).

Viscant was a avid low tier user in mvc2 no less, and even he held the opinion that the game shows you who was better, it's the person who won.

Yes it's harder to use low tiers or flashy comboes but no one is forcing you to use them, don't degrade the other guy's skill.

I mean take jwong for instance, in mvc2 he knows how to use low tiers and uses them alot in casual matches and he usually pulls off hella flashy comboes *morrigan infinite* .... he also ALWAYS uses top tiers in the actual tournament and i never see him do something impractical or flashy.

Just cuz you use top tiers, or turtle doesn't mean you have any less skill.

[shmy]

I'm sorry I don't know anything about MVC2, I thought this was a CVS2 thread.

But hey, you made some valid points as well, and this is why I created this thread, it's because I hate on turtles, and I feel that I shouldn't.

Which is why I want all your opinions on why turtling is considered skillful, because I'm trying to see it that way. Right now, I still don't, so everyone continue to post, and I'll gladly use your opinions to help form a less biased opinion on the subject.

[Higher-Jin]

I'm sorry I don't know anything about MVC2, I thought this was a CVS2 thread.

But hey, you made some valid points as well, and this is why I created this thread, it's because I hate on turtles, and I feel that I shouldn't.

Which is why I want all your opinions on why turtling is considered skillful, because I'm trying to see it that way. Right now, I still don't, so everyone continue to post, and I'll gladly use your opinions to help form a less biased opinion on the subject.

Yea well turtles are universal i think mvc2 and 3s turtles belong in this subject.

cvs2 is known as a turtle friendly game but i once talked to buktooth and he said that it isn't.

He said something like sure you could roll, bait whiffs, dp ect.

but he also said no one could ever look for all those things at once.

turtling also usually gives the opponent the intiative, they get first strike at you and if they exploit it they can get the ball rolling and you just have to sit there and take their guard string/mix up ect.

i'm a scrub at cvs2 though so i'll leave it at this for now.

[Leezy]

Shmy has experience, end of discussion on that.

Tournament experience is a different story. Not having played in tournaments affects playing style. Never "needing" to win will cause someone to have fun even when they're not winning. I am all for show, even in tournaments. I do draw the line occasionally, and play solid to get a win. I fuck up all the time, and admit when I was trying something too flashy and lost. I have no problem with the loss, as long as I was having fun. I hate on turtles all the time, 'cause they are boring to play and boring to watch. Sometimes, though, it is exciting to watch. Like when Ricky OCVs everyone with Vega, that's kinda fun to watch. I think turtling is a skill, and a vital part of the game. I don't do it much myself, and I don't enjoy when people do it. I mean, how much fun is it to bust open a can of turtle soup with a kick ass combo in front of a hella big crowd? Compare that with the crowd's reaction to someone who turtled their way to victory, people just kinda walk away...

So yeah, turtles are good players if they can compete (even if they don't win). This game is about fun, period. Whether fun for you is winning or just messing around, it should remain a fun game.

[noodleman]

turtling in tourny play is just as hard as giving a good rush down. If the playes are equally skilled, then the guy playing the turtler can adjust his game plan by either turtling with him, or know where his openings are and attack them.

[box]

BTW, before I start, I'm not a "Rush-Down" player by any means...

Box

Fair enough you stated your point with some valid facts to back it up, and winning does gain you notoriety. But I'm just a flashy guy, so I don't think I personally will start to turtle, but I'll give turtler's their respect due, and consider them patient & knowledgable, but not as skillful. Definitely more patient.

Sports example again, Le Bron James is skillful (flashy), and John Stockton is knowledgable (turtle.) NOW I DEFINITELY KNOW, which player you would rather be, if not for the short shorts alone!

Still can't believe you would rather be Troy Brown over T.O. !!!

You see, now here's where you're wrong. I'm a fan of winning... whether it's flashy or not. So you see... in a Basketball game, I'd rather be Le Bron James/Kobe/Any other all-star. You on the other hand are a fan of just being flashy above winning the game. So that'd be analagous to a Harlem Globetrotter. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can make a name for yourself by putting out some cool combo videos and stuff.

Again, skill is measured in who wins the game. According to your definition, since team NBA all-stars isn't as flashy as the harlem globetrotters... then they're a less skilled team. Skill is measured by who wins the games, not by how many fancy ball-tricks one can do in scoring a basket.

Stockton can't dunk. Shaq can't make free throws. That's why they play the game according to the strengths they have at their disposal. Same thing with CvS2. There's some people who are better at turtling than rushing down. And others who are better at rushing down than turtling. They play the game using their strengths. No reason to hate.

[shmy]

Man, you guys make it seem like I go out and do the craziest shit, and always lose. That's not the case. Winning does not equal fun all the time. Not if you're consistantly winning by doing nothing. Of course I will refer only to casual play @ this point, because I've only played in one tourney in my life.

I'm glad Leezy posted, and knocked some sense back into me, you see, I don't have a problem with losing, which is what you guys make it seem to be, I have a problem of not being able to play the game. If I lose to Leezy, and he does the Kim corner cancel, or even Infinite's me, than shit, I'm like "That's tight!" During the whole match we were playing. Now this is a vague example, but if I lose to some turtle, who never moves during the whole match, waits for you to try and do something, gets one hit, and is content on letting the clock run out in order to get the win, than of course I will hate on turtles, and I will continue to view them as not as skillful, but more patient. And if this is how I have to win all the time, than I wouldn't be happy with winning, but than again that's just me.

And of course there are ways around a turtle, but it is tedious. And this is why I don't like them, I AM NOT PATIENT! I've admitted my fault already. But like I said, I respect them, they play to win, I play to have fun. Maybe if I played more tournies, I would play to win more often, winning is fun, but It's not the only reason why the game is fun.

Also let's keep it all in the NBA box, the way I play is like the ALL-STAR game, yes you play to win, but don't tell me in an ALL-STAR game that they are not playing for show. You're telling me that Vince Carter would throw the ball off the backboard to himself, catch it and dunk it in any other game. Is that sound strategy?

You play as if it were a playoff game, which is cool, it is what I should do more often, plus you probably play in a lot of tournies. But if I played like that (especially in casual play) than I wouldn't be able to pull off the Vince Carter.

I'm glad I started this thread because I was bored @ work, cause now when I go back, the 8 hours will just melt away.

Thanks people...keep posting!

[Blazn]

I see where ur coming from.. turtles are boring and they get u frustrated easily and that makes u screw up more...

as the saying goes.. if u cant beat em.. join em and if u cant join em piss em off..

just try turtling agaisnt a turtle and youl see what theyl do.

get a hit then run and put the pressure on them.. and then theres always the taunt button. start building up ur bar and make THEM come to you..

I play alot of turtles.. (hibiki) and if u dont JD or parry as much thats ur only option. bait then counter

[box]

Shmy: Oh. Okay I get ya. I think the reason why you play a lot of guys who don't do flashy stuff in casual play is probably cause they're just practicing for a tourney and they don't wanna practice any moves that they probably won't use in a tourney. I know a lot of people who are like that... I'm one of them... although I do enjoy doing random select every now and then. Still, hating on em for playing the way they do in casual doesn't seem right to me.

[Higher-Jin]

Man, you guys make it seem like I go out and do the craziest shit, and always lose. That's not the case. Winning does not equal fun all the time. Not if you're consistantly winning by doing nothing. Of course I will refer only to casual play @ this point, because I've only played in one tourney in my life.

I'm glad Leezy posted, and knocked some sense back into me, you see, I don't have a problem with losing, which is what you guys make it seem to be, I have a problem of not being able to play the game. If I lose to Leezy, and he does the Kim corner cancel, or even Infinite's me, than shit, I'm like "That's tight!" During the whole match we were playing. Now this is a vague example, but if I lose to some turtle, who never moves during the whole match, waits for you to try and do something, gets one hit, and is content on letting the clock run out in order to get the win, than of course I will hate on turtles, and I will continue to view them as not as skillful, but more patient. And if this is how I have to win all the time, than I wouldn't be happy with winning, but than again that's just me.

And of course there are ways around a turtle, but it is tedious. And this is why I don't like them, I AM NOT PATIENT! I've admitted my fault already. But like I said, I respect them, they play to win, I play to have fun. Maybe if I played more tournies, I would play to win more often, winning is fun, but It's not the only reason why the game is fun.

Also let's keep it all in the NBA box, the way I play is like the ALL-STAR game, yes you play to win, but don't tell me in an ALL-STAR game that they are not playing for show. You're telling me that Vince Carter would throw the ball off the backboard to himself, catch it and dunk it in any other game. Is that sound strategy?

You play as if it were a playoff game, which is cool, it is what I should do more often, plus you probably play in a lot of tournies. But if I played like that (especially in casual play) than I wouldn't be able to pull off the Vince Carter.

I'm glad I started this thread because I was bored @ work, cause now when I go back, the 8 hours will just melt away.

Thanks people...keep posting!


You make it sound like turtling is some unbeatable tactic.

You said yourself your not patient it's your own fault you are being beaten then.

for some people winning is fun.

If you don't have fun with the game then play something else or play with someone that agrees to your house rules.

But if you are you aren't really playing the game, you aren't playing for competition.

Once you face someone who's actually playing the game and utilizes the things that you ban in your house rules you'll lose 10 times worse because you'd have so little experience against it.

NO ONE can get one hit and run away for the rest of the match (except gambit in mvc2 since he can do a glitch where he DISAPPEARS for the rest of the match, which is banned in competitive play), if you can't pin them down i suggest you better yourself at rushdown.

I mean are you just letting them sit there?

Throw a fireball, run at them, low jump, do something...

If they can block all your ish then maybe it's a advanced player or your rushdown is too predictable.

Turtling as far from unbeatable, and it takes skill to do since you can throw, low jump instant overhead them (yama with his rh and many others) , chip them.... ect.

If someone is beating you with rc's i remember someone saying RC back.

i can't help you too much in the specifics of cvs2.

gl

edit: if you don't play serious at least once in a while in casuals you are missing out on serious competition that will help you in tournaments.

[gguseila]

I think if you have 2 people of equal skill, one is rushdown and the other is a turtle. In this game the turtler wins most of the time. I wish I turtled I'd win alot more, but it wouldnt make this game worth playing.

[WindyMan]

If someone exclusively turtles and just waits for a mistake by the other person, the turtler is more likely to fall for throws, overheads and guard crush strings while they sit on crouch block and their meter. This holds especially true for charge move characters.

When they start becoming punching bags, they are forced to go on the offensive, causing them to make more mistakes, giving you free shots.

There is a big difference between turtling and staying on the defensive. Generally, you should never hold crouch block and wait for the other person to do something, whether you are ahead or behind in a round, because you will be taken out of your game, giving the other person a huge advantage.

[shmy]

Back @ work here where this whole extravaganza started...

Listen Jin, I can beat a turtle. I never said I couldn't. I don't like to play against a turtle, it's boring, not fun, etc. My first post I said turtle's can't be beat, that was intended as a joke, then I specifically told you "Of course you can beat turtles, if not then everyone would do it!"

My problem is it's boring to play them, regardless of if I win. I do play to win, but it's not the only reason I play. Let me get into specifics, I play C-Chun, and let's say a turtle is using K-Sagat. This is a typical match up for me, and plenty of turtles use K-Sagat. Now obviously I can't jump in, no need to state why, it becomes a pokes match. Let's say I'm forced to turtle back in order to have a chance...this is where I say some skill takes place, for instance, I zone in & out of Sagat's range and bait a standing/crouching fierce, or even standing forward...I counter-hit with standing Strong. Yeah, I'm winning, now I sit back and repeat process during the duration of the match. Now I have meter, and I've hit Sagat with quite a few standing strong's, there's no way he's going to throw out any pokes in fear of standing strong xx super. Time runs out, I win. That was not fun for me. Of course this is a vague example, but matches tend to fall in this direction when you are playing a turtle.

It did not take as much skill to move back & forth and hitting one button to win, but I admit, it does take skill, therefore turtles do have skill. It definitely took plenty of patience, which I don't have much of. I mean just thinking about that match makes me fall asleep.

Now you keep referring to Marvel turtles...this is CVS2, although turtle's are universal, there is a difference between the two. Marvel's game speed is twice that of CVS2. I'm pretty sure turtles like things slow, c'mon they're turtles. So if you're going to use examples, please stick to CVS2 only (which you have done somewhat,) but you even said that you are not too familiar with CVS2, but you keep posting stuff to make it seem like you know more about CVS2 than me, not saying I'm the master, but I wouldn't go to a Marvel thread and act as if I know anything on the any subject. I play 3S, and I've never posted in that thread yet, because I don't know it as well as CVS2.

The question is are turtles skillful, you've answered it, thanks, now give some examples relating to the actual game in discussion, IN DETAIL...of course I don't let them just sit there, but I gave you a specific match-up as to why THEY can just sit there. If throwing a fireball would stop all turtles, then no one would ever turtle. Low jumps aren't always the answer. If you think so, keep low jumping on Sagat, and let's see how many standing fierce's you get by.

Oh and btw, box, you are absolutely right, hating on them doesn't seem right, which is why I've swallowed my pride and have started to admit that it does take skill to turtle. But I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from, because I don't think I was explaining things well...whew!

Keep it coming folks...

[GunterJPN]

If you are C-Chun vs. Sagat, you should be attempting to land a SBK at some point in the match. Good Sagat's won't let you in, but that's something you should look out for. It helps you break his guard, at which point you get free damage. The ground game in this particular matchup is stressful, but it's a lot better than vs. C-Sagat. K-Sagat can't build up meter unless you're hitting him (whether it's eaten or JD'd), so you don't have to worry about the random fierce into super. Just play it like you said to, and you shouldn't have any problems. The thing you are doing wrong is looking at the STRATEGY to determine if a player is skillful or not. The skill is determined by the win. Look at it this way - a K-Sagat team has 20 wins and used turtling tactics most of the time. During that streak, an A-Sakura team has lost about 10 times, but in each of his losses he has gotten the CC. The CC is flashy, but take it from me, it's easy to do once you practice it enough. It's just muscle memory. It's much harder to get 20 wins, or in other words, it takes much more skill. I personally like playing against people that have those types of win streaks rather than against people that I can just go brain-dead on and do my CCs whenever I want. It may come as shocking to some people out there, but a lot of people play against people because they like the thrill of competition. If you're only playing to have fun, you can do that at home. The reason to play against people (I think) is to face different styles of play and see how you fare against them. Turtling is one of those styles.

[Mickey D']

DAYUMM!!!

Gunter layin it DOWN! Thanks for that post that shit was inspiring!

[shmy]

Okay Gunter, I'll give you this, playing against turtles has made me advance technically, or fundamentally. If it weren't for turtles, I would've never have trained to learn how to do standing poke xx super with Chun or any character for that matter, so yes they have helped me become a better player.

Also, I do seek the thrill of competition, I just would rather win against someone who hits me with Sak's CC, than win against someone who hits me with a few normals, but the match took an hour. Or I guess I will give more props to someone who has a 20 game win streak that is more "video-friendly," than someone who has a 20 game win streak that is "sleep-aid friendly." But I do see your point there with the K-Groove getting 20 wins even though he's eaten Sak's CC. That does take skill.

And back on the subject of seeking comp, I'm lucky enough to live in Nor-Cal, so for CVS2 this is big. So whenever I get a chance to play a top player, I take it, I never shy away from anyone I know is better than me. I'm not just seeking to play against some player that I know I will land combos on.

But I guess wins = skills, so I won't argue against that.

[Blazn]

ok one question.. u have turtles.. and rushers.. so what do u call those guys in the middle? the one that baits u to attack and comes at u?

super turtles?

[shmy]

super turtles?


No, Ninja Turtles.

[Mickey D']

I know this may seem kinda weird, but mentally you can win when you phiscally lose. I've seen it happen before. For example my buddy Trinh Nguyen used ratio 4 N-Sagat against LTB's P groove team in a tournament not to long ago. Of course Trinh had lost, however he pulled some fancy lookin combos and gave us (the audiance) the thrill of watching a Ratio 4 character beat down on Ratio 1's.

A person will always be remembered if they made a fancy combo in the match in example Soo Mighty. Fancy combos, or cool looking parry's etc. will always boost your charisma as a player.

You may have lost the match, however you pulled a really nice combo that will be memorable even through your loss.

[Leezy]

You may have lost the match...memorable even through your loss.

Enter Leezy vs JWong...who JDs entire supers and loses in two hits the next round? Yeah...Pro...

Gunter: We miss you. The thrill of competition is there, but the showboating is the main reason I don't just stay at home to practice. You guys encourage my style of play, even though you criticize (which is always welcome, by the way) when I fuck up because I was trying to do something cool. All those times you, Buk, Kim, etc. yell out "Leezy," or the distinctive way Campbell says "Eric Lee!" after I hit an infinite, crazy Kim corner combo, or JD something ridiculous promotes showmanship. I think it's good for the gaming scene to have players who can compete, but would rather have fun than just win. I think it keeps players, especially new ones, interested in the game. I mean, it's 4 years old now, and people still come up with new shit. People try to learn Kim 'cause of Final Showdown and myself (hopefully), Morrigan is synonymous with Buktooth, Ricky and Vega are the same person (Ricky leaves the claw at home 'cause he can't play with it on).

So yeah; turtles, rushers, in-betweeners, showboaters...all have a place in this world. All are skillful, and all deserve credit for keeping this gaming genre alive. By the way, I'm trying C-Yun 'cause of EdMa, and haven't given up Maki after being beasted by Keith and Allen.

[*InVeRs3*]

A good defense is just as hard as a good offense imo. They both require positioning and guessing, and dexterity to some extent.

It sounds like you're not seeing true turtlers by your description. You're just facing sitters. They just sit there. And sit.

[shmy]

It sounds like you're not seeing true turtlers by your description. You're just facing sitters. They just sit there. And sit.


No, I'm just vague with my description, I'm facing turtles, but to go into TOO much detail would make my post longer than it already is (I'm already posting chapters)...I tried to go into detail with my C-Chun vs. K-Sagat, but yes, it was just a portion of what it is like to face a turtle.

Yes turtles have good defense.

[Higher-Jin]

Back @ work here where this whole extravaganza started...

Listen Jin, I can beat a turtle. I never said I couldn't. I don't like to play against a turtle, it's boring, not fun, etc. My first post I said turtle's can't be beat, that was intended as a joke, then I specifically told you "Of course you can beat turtles, if not then everyone would do it!"

My problem is it's boring to play them, regardless of if I win. I do play to win, but it's not the only reason I play. Let me get into specifics, I play C-Chun, and let's say a turtle is using K-Sagat. This is a typical match up for me, and plenty of turtles use K-Sagat. Now obviously I can't jump in, no need to state why, it becomes a pokes match. Let's say I'm forced to turtle back in order to have a chance...this is where I say some skill takes place, for instance, I zone in & out of Sagat's range and bait a standing/crouching fierce, or even standing forward...I counter-hit with standing Strong. Yeah, I'm winning, now I sit back and repeat process during the duration of the match. Now I have meter, and I've hit Sagat with quite a few standing strong's, there's no way he's going to throw out any pokes in fear of standing strong xx super. Time runs out, I win. That was not fun for me. Of course this is a vague example, but matches tend to fall in this direction when you are playing a turtle.

It did not take as much skill to move back & forth and hitting one button to win, but I admit, it does take skill, therefore turtles do have skill. It definitely took plenty of patience, which I don't have much of. I mean just thinking about that match makes me fall asleep.

Now you keep referring to Marvel turtles...this is CVS2, although turtle's are universal, there is a difference between the two. Marvel's game speed is twice that of CVS2. I'm pretty sure turtles like things slow, c'mon they're turtles. So if you're going to use examples, please stick to CVS2 only (which you have done somewhat,) but you even said that you are not too familiar with CVS2, but you keep posting stuff to make it seem like you know more about CVS2 than me, not saying I'm the master, but I wouldn't go to a Marvel thread and act as if I know anything on the any subject. I play 3S, and I've never posted in that thread yet, because I don't know it as well as CVS2.

The question is are turtles skillful, you've answered it, thanks, now give some examples relating to the actual game in discussion, IN DETAIL...of course I don't let them just sit there, but I gave you a specific match-up as to why THEY can just sit there. If throwing a fireball would stop all turtles, then no one would ever turtle. Low jumps aren't always the answer. If you think so, keep low jumping on Sagat, and let's see how many standing fierce's you get by.

Oh and btw, box, you are absolutely right, hating on them doesn't seem right, which is why I've swallowed my pride and have started to admit that it does take skill to turtle. But I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from, because I don't think I was explaining things well...whew!

Keep it coming folks...

If you don't like the way the game is played assuming you know how it's truly played then play a different game.

And there's no way that he'll nail you with a standing fierce each time unless your low jumping everytime.

Mix it up!

and i SINCERELY doubt you can run the clock the whole match.

Maybe the last 20 seconds but no way can you keep someone off of you for the whole match without putting obstacles in his way, then you are zoning and playing keep away, not turtling, back dashing and running away.

[box]

Shmy: A good thing about playing turtles... even in casual play... is that at least you're exposed to it. You won't be overwhelmed/surprised when someone plays turtle style in a tournament against you. At EVO2004, Daigo lost to 2 turtles (Ratio1beatdown and Eddie Lee). He probably was not prepared for that style and things may have been different if it was best 2 of 3. He just didn't know how to fight it for those 2 matches.

Anyhow, it's good to play a variety of styles, so you won't be surprised come tourney time. I have yet to play a really good rushdown player. I wish I could play Ino or Ohnuki someday.

[shmy]

Jin, you are NOT reading my post. I can beat turtles, I’ve beaten so many I could make turtle soup for a whole year! I just think that they’re boring to play! I felt that they did not possess the skills to make the game fun & interesting, FELT, as in past tense. A few post by some peeps (primarily Box & Gunter) have helped change my mind somewhat. Somewhat…

Jin, the game is fun, turtles are boring. I’m not going to stop playing the game because of a few boring matches with some people. If you play to win, and you lost a few times, would you stop playing?

Now, you have consistently replied to my post with "how to" beat turtle tactics. I don’t need that. I even started this thread saying, “This is not a thread about how to beat turtles…” Then I followed it with a joke that everyone got, except you. The post on the match up scenario was to give you an idea of how boring/basic a match with a turtle can be. Seeming as if no skill were involved. Not how impossible it is to defeat a turtle. I even stated that I won the match in that example.

The topic we should be discussing is…

DO YOU THINK TURTLES ARE SKILLFUL? YES already, both you, and now I agree on that. You’ve answered that question already.

If you want to give me some "how to" advice, then tell me how to view a match with a turtle as fun, until then, please stop posting. I have welcomed everyone’s advice, but everyone has posted something relevant to the topic. Now I apologize if I sound rude in this post, please don’t take this is as if I’m hating on you. I’m not. It’s just I don’t think you fully understand what we’re talking about, so I’m trying my best to make it clear to you, so you don’t end up posting something like “If you don’t like the way the game is truly played than don’t play" again. That was uncalled for. And how is the game “truly” played? I offer you a thumbs up sign now (there was no peace sign,) because I don’t want this to be a flame war thread, or for there to be any animosity between anyone. :tup:

Box:
I play at an arcade where there are few to no turtles on a daily basis. So I’ve been lucky, all matches are exciting, and very few drag along. I would say that there is one turtle to every 5-6 players. When that one turtle does come along, I do try to take advantage of the situation and learn to play against that style. Like I said to Gunter, if it weren’t for turtles, I would’ve probably never trained to do poke supers, which has made my ground game improve tremendously. My attitude is just “Oh, you’re one of those type of players, this is going to be boring.” I mean, the game has so much to offer, and turtles sometimes just seem lazy…and I guess that’s why I view them as less skillful. But now I see that winning does take skill, so every piece of advice given has helped me change my view on the topic. Thanks to you all, and sorry for the long @$$ post everyone, but please continue to flood this thread with your opinions.

[wepeel]

hey shmy, do you have the EVO DVD? I'm curious to know if you enjoyed the CvS2 matches on there. A lot of people have complained about the "boring poke wars", but I personally found them to be entertaining and helpful in my own game.

There's a fair amount of turtling going on in those matches. However, I still believe the matches were exciting because it was this whole conceptualization of mind games...take Ricky's A-Sak vs. Dan's C-Sagat...that was all pretty much long range pokes, but there was a guessing game (albeit somewhat in Ricky's favor) that showed a lot of mind games...was Sakura gonna s.RH, or s.Strong? From how far away?

Sounds really basic...but I'm sure you and others on this forum have seen (and performed) the flashy combos that really only impresses the people who are only slightly familiar with the game. There isn't a single Ken combo on the DVD that blows my mind away. I'm not really watching the EVO DVD to be amazed by sick combos (already got...other videos...must not mention...), I watch it to see how other people use the characters of CvS2, and their individual nuances (mind games, timing, etc.)

Anyway...there's fun to be had in turtle matches. You just gotta find your own brand of it...

[shmy]

Yeah you're right. I try to look at turtle matches as playing a game of chess now. Only problem is chess gets boring to me after a while. Also if I look at it that way, I realize that turtling is skillful, because chess is a game of skill. Especially mentally.

I'm trying to force myself to think that it's not boring, it's technical. Like seeing pass the flash of a dunk, and looking at the beauty of a jump shot with proper form (Ray Allen). If I look at it that way, I start to favor it more.

But yeah, combos do impress top players as well, not just noobs. Also thank goodness you can link supers off certain pokes, it makes poke wars more fun to watch.

Also I prefer match vids over combo vids 10 to 1. I like watching match vids with combos, and try to see how the player sets it up. If a match is primarily just poke here, poke there, I admit, I'll skip it.

[iKlEiTlH]

Playing against a hardcore turtle during CASUALS can be one of the most boring/frustrating things in the entire game of CVS2. It's often pretty difficult to beat a SERIOUS turtler during casuals when you aren't exactly focusing/trying as hard as you would otherwise in a tournament. What makes it even worse is when you're picking a "fun team" and aren't really use to breaking down turtles with it.

Tournaments are a different story though... I don't think I've ever really been bored (at least since I started to play more competitively) playing a hardcore turtle in a tournament match. I'm much more focused on what I should be doing to win, rather than trying to get mad at someone for breaking me doww. If you're already losing and you start to lose focus, you're pretty much dead. You really have to ditch what you think about certain playstyles during tournies, because in the end it's only the win that counts.

The only time I LIKE playing against turtles is when I need practice for a tournament.

Byron, playing at the Bearcade is really fun because none of the good players ever really turtle while playing casuals. If you had gone to more tournies a while back you would've seen people like Tae actually playing a strong turtle/patient style and being super effective with it (that's why he was the most consistent player for the most part). It was actually REALLY good practice playing there back then, but now it's mostly to mess around and pick fun chars than it is for hardcore tourney training.

There are times when hating on turtles is understandable, but I think it's best if you just learn to live with it in general. Better to get use to it sooner than later.

[shmy]

WOW :wow:

IKiELELTHNHHSHTKII responding to my thread.

Yeah Kieth I'm going to be honest with you...I started this thread because I was bored at work, and so the first thing that came to mind was turtles (don't know why.) But yeah, it's not a big deal, I know that people turtle during tournies, even in that one tourney I played in at the BEARcade (where I was whooping your ass & then your Sagat came back on me,) I cut back on my aggressiveness, and I still found the tourney fun.

But this thread is dying (or dead already,) you're the first to post in a while.

[Higher-Jin]

What i am saying to you

is that cvs2 has turtles

if you don't like the turtles which are part of the game you can either quit for something less turtle friendly or you can deal with it.

It's like someone complaining about sagat cuz of crouching fierce or me complaining about magneto because his tri jumps are too fast.

It's part of the game if you really hate it that much maybe it's not the game for you.

The way i see it if someone is playing defensive it either gives me experience in:

a) playing keepaway vs. a keepaway player

b) practice my rush down

that's just IMO

i'm not trying to put you down, but seriously dude what can i say?

edit: if it's not a big deal the dont' even worry about it

[shmy]

Man, it's not a big deal because I'm speaking to someone I know, notice he called me by name...

Turtles are not a big deal in general, I never posted anything about turtles should be banned, or I will never play because of turtles, and if you have noticed, I have slowly changed my opinion on the subject. HURRAH for turtles. I will look forward to the challenge of cracking a turtle's shell (as oppose to just dealing with them.)

What is a big deal is you constantly posting needless info. Dude, I don't care about Marvel...and if someone complains about Sagat's crouching fierce, or standing forward, by any means do so. But please don't quit playing because of that. The game is too fun. I mean going to work every day is boring, but shit, I don't hate it.

The topic ONCE AGAIN is do you think turtles are skillful...not how do you deal with turtles. Or how do turtles help my game. Read my post before you post.

[shmy]

Sorry for the double post, but I have to do this.

I'm going to post in direct response to your post so you see why I'm upset with some of your comments.

PLEASE keep in mind what the topic is, I'm not re-typing it anymore.


What i am saying to you is that cvs2 has turtles

I never said it didn't have turtles.

if you don't like the turtles which are part of the game you can either quit for something less turtle friendly or you can deal with it.

I've already told you why I won't quit with a good example. Also, I've already been given advice on how to view a match with a turtle in a way that would make it exciting for me.

Gunter, Keith just to name a few.

It's like someone complaining about sagat cuz of crouching fierce or me complaining about magneto because his tri jumps are too fast.

It's part of the game if you really hate it that much maybe it's not the game for you.

I don't hate it that much, I think it's boring (playing turtles, that is) and even then, not as much anymore...WOW, if I'm playing ball @ the park and this guy is playing really good D on me and I can't score, I should say to myself, "Damn I hate it, I can't score, I guess I should never play this game that has brought me fun for all these years, ever again!"

The way i see it if someone is playing defensive it either gives me experience in:

a) playing keepaway vs. a keepaway player

b) practice my rush down

that's just IMO

Now this is advice I will take into consideration, but you're basically repeating what other people have posted.

i'm not trying to put you down, but seriously dude what can i say?

edit: if it's not a big deal the dont' even worry about it
Well thanks, cause it does sound like you're trying to put me down, and you've already admitted that you're not familiar with this game, and keep using Marvel for examples. But I'll trust you with it. And it is a big deal, when you don't understand what the thread is about and continue to post.

But I'm through with this, because at no point did you cover the topic at hand.

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

Why can you NEVER jump in on Sagat? Just fucking jump, and if he dps you everytime then you're not playing correctly. It's like when people say the first to jump in Sagat mirror matches loses, yet watch any high level match and they'll both jump in like 5 times. If you're scared of him, then of course he's gonna win.

[Shin Ace]

Turtles are usually very good players, capable of consitently performing big combos when necessary(dizzy, meaties). They simply choose to not repeat those combos. Turtlers are also very good at landing supers, where as rush characters will often whiff supers.

[iKlEiTlH]

^-- That's not necessarily true. There are a LOT of random arcade "scrubs" who choose to turtle simply because it's extremely effective and isn't as difficult to execute as other playstyles. These are players who pretty much ONLY play casual so they almost NEVER have to deal with someone else playing with a business team or attitude. Like I said earlier, it can be extremely difficult/frustrating playing a hardcore turtle if you're just using casual teams and aren't really in tourney mode. This is why I think diehard turtles can win a lot easier in casuals than most other people.

To say turtles are usually very good players isn't really accurate. I WOULD say that turtles are usually somewhat smart players who try as hard as they can to win in nearly every match that they play (casual or otherwise).

Byron, shit normally gets annoying when people are discussing stuff over forums. I'm pretty sure the other dood isn't out to put you down or anything. Shit just gets heated fast on msg boards. The more you use the forums, the more you'll get use to learning how to deal with random people who seem to be arguing with you. There are like 100's of annoying ass posts everyday... You're just gonna have to learn to deal with them.

[shmy]

Blah blah, "I am Keith, HEAR ME ROAR!"


Damn, Keith you are right, I never knew that posting outside of BEARcade thread would be so frustrating.

Now that one guy is posting about how it's hard to jump in on Sagat, that was just an example. Yes he makes his point but, it's not the DAMN topic @ hand. ARRG!

Forget it, let's just turn this thread into a "matchup strategy," one. It's already heading in that direction anyway.

I have to listen to the wise words of Keith, "You're just going to have to learn to deal with it."

[FreddyL0c0]

why turn this thread into a matchup strategy when one already exists....

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

Well there's only so much you can say to someone who doesn't like turtles, so if it gets into more detailed topics it should either be closed or let die. The Sagat thing is clearly relevant because it strongly suggests that you need to be more aggressive on the ground first. That will get him thinking enough so that you can jump in more.

[shmy]

Well there's only so much you can say to someone who doesn't like turtles, so if it gets into more detailed topics it should either be closed or let die. The Sagat thing is clearly relevant because it strongly suggests that you need to be more aggressive on the ground first. That will get him thinking enough so that you can jump in more.


It is not relevant to the topic, it is relevant to what you said it is relevant to, which is suggesting I need a stronger ground game. Which is advice I gladly welcome btw, I have by no means mastered any aspect of this lovely game, but...that doesn't tie into the topic that I've repeated to Jin on numerous occasions. It's a response to matchup strategy or just basic improvement thread.

Here let me ask you this, does me having a weak ground game equal turtles are skillful players?

It's like if you worked at McDonald's and ask a customer "Would you like to SUPER-SIZE that?" And they reply "CHEESEBURGER!"

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

Here let me ask you this, does me having a weak ground game equal turtles are skillful players?

Basically, whether someone turtles or rushes down has absolutely no bearing on if they're good or not, it's just the style they use while either being good or bad. With that said, the thread is pretty much covered and it will most likely branch off. If you haven't done so already, maybe posting in the matchup thread or some other thread about how to beat turtles would be helpful.

[GunterJPN]

Another way to view turtles is that they are merely playing a mental game with their opponents. If I know that my opponent gets frustrated with turtles, I will turtle on them almost every time. Frustration causes errors, and errors are what give me openings. It's just like how if you know that the opponent can only do the Sak or Bison CC facing one direction, you try to keep them on the opposite side. You put them out of their comfort zone. If someone is uncomfortable playing against a certain style, expose that by playing the style. The thing with fighting games is that there are a lot of levels to the game. One of them is the mental aspect, and choosing a fighting style (turtle or rushdown) goes along with it.

[Leezy]

Gunter=walk up activate!!! The secret is out!!! Mwuaaahhhhhh!!!

Oh Byron, no more McDonald's analogies dude. Stick with sports. Though, I do want a quarter pounder right now...