So Soul Calibur II's not cool to play anymore?

[graffiti_sex]

I know Soul Calibur II has ran it's course, but thats no reason to turn your backs on it. The game is nowhere near bad, when Tekken 5 was still in Namco's nutsack people praised that shit like crazy. But now that it's "played out" people actually have the gall to pick IT over Tekken 4? What in the fuck?

It has lose controls yes, but you shit on people like Kage and TooHectic when you say it's too easy to win. It's obvious the system is way deeper than a scrubby ass 3d version of super punch out.

I want to know why all of a sudden Soul Calibur isn't hip anymore. And none of that "it's broken" shit. Theres characters in Tekken 5 and then theres Nina and Steve. If that aint broken then I dont know what is.

opine

[WasFemto]

With all this talk of brokenness and what not, it sounds like T5 is going to be the next MvC2 but on a larger scale. Only a handful of characters(if that) that are used in tourney that can actually win, but the game still be played alot...for now. Only time will tell, but since Tekken is pretty mainstream I wouldn't doubt it having a long run.

Umm....I played SC2 on an import GC and didn't see what all the hubub was about after I beat it with Mitsurugi and Astaroth using the same shit from SC on DC. I know you can't judge a fighting game properly by that but I did since I enjoyed SC for the DC, but then again I only bought SC to hold me over till VF3 was released...

[Kouga]

Too much turtling IMO.

[diifii]

it does not have cool enough combos.

[bender mark2]

sc2 will always be cool to play. unless there is a sc3 that is miles better. Still my favourite fighter though, dunno why some people shit on it

[SaiST]

Huh, ironic. I just got through with a good hour-long session.

I stopped playing it for a while, had a friend who whored the fuck out of it. Wouldn't play anything else but Soul Calibur/Soul Calibur 2, didn't give any other games a chance, didn't have "variety" in his vocabulary. So I was burned on SC for a while and claimed somebody stole it to put an end to that shit.

I think the game holds up quite well. I didn't understand why it drew in so much negative attention from forum-goers 'n' such. But then, I was never that much into it.

[Serpent]

Go to some 3d fighting game site and post this thread there. We don't focus on 3d here. Tekken seems to have the best core gameplay, so we'll play T5 over any other 3d game.

[Monarc G.]

Huh, ironic. I just got through with a good hour-long session.

I stopped playing it for a while, had a friend who whored the fuck out of it. Wouldn't play anything else but Soul Calibur/Soul Calibur 2, didn't give any other games a chance, didn't have "variety" in his vocabulary. So I was burned on SC for a while and claimed somebody stole it to put an end to that shit.

I think the game holds up quite well. I didn't understand why it drew in so much negative attention from forum-goers 'n' such. But then, I was never that much into it.


filosofia barata

[SynikaL]

Go to some 3d fighting game site and post this thread there. We don't focus on 3d here. Tekken seems to have the best core gameplay, so we'll play T5 over any other 3d game.


I've always wondered what was the psychological reasoning behind 2d fighting game fans always being more geared towards Tekken than SC (or any other 3d fighting game for that matter).

I think it's because of the combos. I feel that's the one parallel between the two that makes 2d fighting game fans feel more "comfortable" with Tekken than anything else.

On another note, I'll never understand anyone that says tekken is bettre than Soul Calibur.



-Syn

[N-Ken]

Since when was SCII praised by the fighting game community? I knew people who played competitively and stuff and most of them hated the game, in fact after around a year of that being out, I dont remember many people liking it at all. Personally after playing it for a few minutes and watching a couple vids from nats, I hated that game beyond anything conceivable. Watching a SCII vid makes CvS2 look enjoyable. :sad:

[The_Dragon]

Soul Calibur III is already confirmed for a Fall release this year, anyway. Even if Soul Calibur II is dead you have less than a year to wait for its successor.

[PimpC]

it's all about what you want to play fuck what other people think because if it was like that i know a lot of people who wouldn't play MvC2 or CvS2.....but they do anyway

[OhNoos]

Yes, it's not cool anymore...if you want to stay at the cool kids table you have to play tekken 5 now.

[Higher-Jin]

Yes, it's not cool anymore...if you want to stay at the cool kids table you have to play tekken 5 now.

Nah be a rebel

Join the OG main stream gamers

come sit with us at the mvc2 table :P

[bender mark2]

The game is a lot more fun and accessible to people who have better things to do then practice combos 10 hours a day yet still has plenty of depth. Yeah, don't underestimate the power of the casual gamer, they're mostly responsible for the vast amount of sales that this game generated. I kinda get tired of these vf/tekken style float your opponent all day long combos. Those kage 10foot toss combos are just fucking dumb to look at

[SynikaL]

I kinda get tired of these vf/tekken style float your opponent all day long combos. Those kage 10foot toss combos are just fucking dumb to look at

Thank you.


I don't know about VF, but I just don't see how "poke you all day long till' I launch you and take half your life bar" makes for interestng gameplay in regards to Tekken. At it's core that's really all it is.

And I play both.


-Syn

[WasFemto]

I don't know about VF, but I just don't see how "poke you all day long till' I launch you and take half your life bar" makes for interestng gameplay in regards to Tekken.



Exactly. I guess it just looks cooler. While VF has some shit like this it's nowhere near as bad.BM pointed out the Kage's throw, which I can understand, but alot of hits in T5 are like that (Law f, 1+2 for example). To juggle successfully in VF you have to either hit with a counter hit, as long as it's a move that will knock them off there feet in the first place, or when the opponent takes a heavy hit(Aoi's :l: :r: + PK for example ) they will crumple and when they are going down, you have to hit them at a precise moment to pop them up for the juggle or else they will fall without being floated.

To me it seems, that while VF only has 2 attack buttons it makes up for it in timing as well as positioning.

[white shadow]

For me I hate how the damage is too high so you die before you even can enjoy anything. Plus it's slow and many moves take rediculous motion(s) to pull of a simple prod with a weapon.:tdown:

[Chupacabra]

Soul Calibur III is already confirmed for a Fall release this year, anyway. Even if Soul Calibur II is dead you have less than a year to wait for its successor.

Source please?

[tsubame]

SC II is underrated. I still think gamewise it's a bit weaker then SC I, due to the sidestep upgrade being a bit too good, and the GI system being dumbed down- I'd prefer SC1 controls. It was definitely less of a combo game, and more strategic, which I liked a lot. I get tired of Tekken's combos, and VF's joystick manipulation, SC gets to the strategic core with a lot more accessibility.

VF is a great game, and Tekken isn't bad though.

[Sacred Edge KH]

I honestly don't know why SC2 isn't as popular. I think the main reason that it was played may have been due to Tekken 4, but Tekken 5's got some really bad issues in it as well. Still, both are kickass games.

[USMCOgre]

I happen to be good friends with a couple of the top 2 or 3 SCII player IN THE WORLD, and they call the game shit on a regular basis and have all quit the game to play T5. A little food for thought.

[graffiti_sex]

For me I hate how the damage is too high so you die before you even can enjoy anything. Plus it's slow and many moves take rediculous motion(s) to pull of a simple prod with a weapon.:tdown:

-Tekken 5 has smaller lifebars than Soul Calibur and Soul Calibur 2. I know you've heard about the koreans Tekken 5 standard is to put lifebars on 120%.

-Tekken 5 is much faster than Tekkens before, but still slower than Soul Calibur

Now this is fact. So I really dont have a clue what you're talking about :confused:


Anyway, I think it depends on your play style. People like me just dont tend to have one preference. Soul Calibur has plenty of depth, but the air juggles are non-existant because of the air controlling. And I like that.

As much as I'm loving Tekken 5 I actually AM getting annoyed like fuck with the "juggled to wall. . wall hit . . wall stun . .fall on ground . .cant get up". Thats a little nasty. THen it turns into a fight to see who can whiff, who can take advantage and who can juggle to oblivion

And I play Christie. . so my ass is grass when I'm caught off guard.

[fjf314]

Soul Calibur III is already confirmed for a Fall release this year, anyway. Even if Soul Calibur II is dead you have less than a year to wait for its successor.

No one here is going to believe that unless you can link to a source to back up your statement. I know that on the official Soul Calibur forums, someone posted that Soul Calibur III was rurmored to be confirmed by a Japanese gaming magazine, but nothing official has been said yet that I've seen.

[BIG BAD MOG]

-SC2 is like CvS2 where turtling gives you so much more rewards than aggressiveness unless you are not familiar with the characters.
-SC2 has air control, so you can't really have crazy nice looking juggles, hence the juggles look pretty lame IMO and the rest of the game will just rely on poking
-X, Yoshi, and Mitsu have way too much BS ability.

[graffiti_sex]

No one here is going to believe that unless you can link to a source to back up your statement. I know that on the official Soul Calibur forums, someone posted that Soul Calibur III was rurmored to be confirmed by a Japanese gaming magazine, but nothing official has been said yet that I've seen.
Yeah it's pretty confirmed.

[RowJoe]

If you don't live in one of the SC2 "hotspots", then the game is still fun. Same goes for MVC2.

Fuck the bitches.

[fjf314]

Yeah it's pretty confirmed.

Ummm... link? I would figure Namco would have a press release for this or something.

[Burningfist]

Soul Calibur just bores the hell out of me, only thing I enjoy about it is watching a good Nightmare.

[tsubame]

-SC2 is like CvS2 where turtling gives you so much more rewards than aggressiveness unless you are not familiar with the characters.

I disagree somewhat with that statement. Yes, turtling is much more powerful in SC2, but some characters are quite aggressive (like Taki, Yoshimitsu) It's not as bad as CvS2, I consider it balanced overall offense and defense.

-SC2 has air control, so you can't really have crazy nice looking juggles, hence the juggles look pretty lame IMO and the rest of the game will just rely on poking

Juggling is not a big determinating factor in quality of fighting games.
it's a nice change of pace to have a game that isn't launcher into combo. That seems to be what the mainstream US gamer wants (easy launcher into easy combo)

-X, Yoshi, and Mitsu have way too much BS ability.

First two I can see, Mitsu? In comparison to Tekken 5, I'd have more chance against an X or Yoshi in SC2 then a Nina or Steve in Tekken 5.

[Impact Hound]

No one here is going to believe that unless you can link to a source to back up your statement. I know that on the official Soul Calibur forums, someone posted that Soul Calibur III was rurmored to be confirmed by a Japanese gaming magazine, but nothing official has been said yet that I've seen.

I saw it in the Rumors section of EGM myself, so an official statement from the developers would be nice.

Wait, you put the lime in the coconut?!?

[graffiti_sex]

Turtling my ass

if they turtle:

-unblockable
-high/low mixup
-throw
-guard crush

DA FUCK YOU MEAN TURTLES?

[MKKID]

-Tekken 5 has smaller lifebars than Soul Calibur and Soul Calibur 2. I know you've heard about the koreans Tekken 5 standard is to put lifebars on 120%.

-Tekken 5 is much faster than Tekkens before, but still slower than Soul Calibur

Now this is fact. So I really dont have a clue what you're talking about :confused:


Anyway, I think it depends on your play style. People like me just dont tend to have one preference. Soul Calibur has plenty of depth, but the air juggles are non-existant because of the air controlling. And I like that.

As much as I'm loving Tekken 5 I actually AM getting annoyed like fuck with the "juggled to wall. . wall hit . . wall stun . .fall on ground . .cant get up". Thats a little nasty. THen it turns into a fight to see who can whiff, who can take advantage and who can juggle to oblivion

And I play Christie. . so my ass is grass when I'm caught off guard.

I would disagree with the speed of Tekken 5 compared to Tekken 4. The processor is faster but many of the moves are much slower as well as a lot of the gameplay. Moves have to be more deliberate. In Tekken 4 you could just 1,2 jab all day long. Get near a wall do a wall throw and take insane amounts of damage. Basically Tekken 4 relied mostly on Jabs, Just Frame moves, Easy Juggles, Positioning and above all else Laser Scraper. Jabs were way too good in that game. Steve was way harder to beat in that game. Tekken 5 has some easy Just Frames, crouch jab can now be punished, spacing is more key, juggles are king especially if you can do wall damage, but all in all it is more deliberate. IMO Soul Calibur 2 was pretty good as it was balanced better than Tekken 4. A lot of people just didn't like randomness in the game. In Tekken if you have a lockdown gameplan with a broken character it is very difficult for the turtling player using a character that can't punish or do as much damage as the tier character to win. In SC2, they can turtle way better, and it only takes one whiff to get a ring out. Not to mention air control restricts insane 70% or more combos from occuring. SC is more about fake outs, mind games, set ups. Tekken is by far more repetition, difficult motions than SC imo. Ivy has some difficult shit like doing Crimson Suffering in close quarters combat and relaunch combos. But other than that Tekken has a harder learning curve. I play T5 way more now than SC2. But SC2 is still fun. Just more comp for Tekken in my area.

[MKKID]

Turtling my ass

if they turtle:

-unblockable
-high/low mixup
-throw
-guard crush

DA FUCK YOU MEAN TURTLES?


Dan the Nightmare pretty much beat most people by doing 4 moves with Nightmare. Just sat back, waiting for a move, did a A crush with 3B, B. That was what he did 70 percent of the matches a couple Evos back. Although it is hard to turtle against Yoshi as he is like a fly swarming on your ass.

After reading your post about Tekken 5 being faster than other Tekkens you weren't talking about how fast moves were. It would be how fast the matches last, I hope. The 2nd could be right if you play against a monster who knows the 80 % combos or more. Nasty.

[The Chef]

Tekken 5 is cool!

[coN]

Turtling my ass

if they turtle:

-unblockable
-high/low mixup
-throw
-guard crush

DA FUCK YOU MEAN TURTLES?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........

I fucking laughed until i pissed myself after reading this...

I mean really, WHO THE FUCK is just gonna stand there and get hit by an GC or unblockable? And throws are EASY to break in SC2. Turtling is the way to go in SC2. Its that strong.

[tsubame]

A pure turtle can be punished with quick high-low mixups.

An evader/SS whore is more difficult, but every character has something for it, even if it's substandard for some characters, there is a counter to it.

Honestly, if SCIII is real, I'm just hoping for the following
- GI changed to SC I style, which was better
- some verticals gain better tracking
- no new BS feature
- throw game emphasized more/ harder to counter, especially for grapple heavy characters (Astaroth, Taki)

That's all I'd want. If those are your only complaints, you're doing pretty good.

[JamMasterJom]

SC2 is so bad it's unbelievable.

[Tritone]

I sold SC2 to get DOA:U.

(LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!)

[WasFemto]

People actaully doubt Namco isn't going to make SC3? It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when.

[Zigmover21]

SC3 is reportedly set for a Fall arcade release, lol.

Anywho, SC2 is beyond dead. Nobody cares about the game anymore, end of story.

Turtling my ass

if they turtle:

-unblockable
-high/low mixup
-throw
-guard crush

-There are two, maybe 3 good unblockables in the entire game off the top of my head.

-Mid/low mixups aren't that good compared to most other games 'cause sidestep often beats them for free. If there were more good lows things would work well, but very few track step.

-Throws aren't very strong. The average throw speed is 16 frames (Tekken's is 12; VF's is 8) and the break window is quite large. Plus they don't track step worth shit.

-All guard crush moves are linear. They're generally more useful than unblockables but that doesn't say much.

[PimpC]

I sold SC2 to get DOA:U.

(LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!)

SC2 was the shit for it's time but for some onlin DOA i would've sold that shit too do we'll get flamed together.........but i stil like SC more that DOA because DOA seems more cheesy if that exist anymore in my universe (i play MvC2) :pleased:

[Sacred Edge KH]

Turtling my ass

if they turtle:

-unblockable
-high/low mixup
-throw
-guard crush

For the unblockable... You mean Ultimates right? I hope you are referring to the Soul Charge ultimates, otherwise that's a waist of time. The start-up is a dead give away to get the fuck out of the way.

High/low mixups... Maybe, but those can still be blocked if not predicted and stopped.

Throw... escapable, hell even Guard Impactible.

Guard Crush... feasible but still a little predictable and Guard Impact can stop it.

So turtling would still be rewarded.

[tsubame]

I've never had problems turtle busting. I"ve also played decent level comp, not tournement worthy but still good

[Zigmover21]

If it's not tourney worthy, who cares?

[BIG BAD MOG]

Turtling my ass

if they turtle:

-unblockable
-high/low mixup
-throw
-guard crush

DA FUCK YOU MEAN TURTLES?

-as already stated
-The only chars that I can see having a good high-low mixup would be....oh my, is it true?!?!?!? X, Yoshi, and Mitsu. X has one of the best 3B moves and can get nice damage off of it and she has the 3A,K combination. Mitsu, another good 3B, and he has the 2K, B. Yoshi, please, he has the stone fists which give him a lot of options. Although these three have the crazy stuff, keep in mind that turtling does not always mean blocking. 8WRing can make a lot of moves useless.
-already explained
-I'm just assuming that you're kidding

Post GI moves are also some things that used to be doable in the past, but like i said, turtling just got more popular and post GIs became less effective.

BTW, i don't remember who asked why Mitsu was great, but I can sum it up pretty quickly. He has the 2K, B which goes in a circular motion, knocks down the opponent, and it is fast, what more of a low move do you need? His mids deal a lot of damage, and they are also pretty fast. He has fast poking moves. Anything I miss?

[tsubame]

I'm just being honest, I've faced comp that's good locally, not nationally.

Probably still better then 80% of the players out there though.

[Sacred Edge KH]

What's really fun is pissing off offensive players with Raphael. No need to GI or turtle with him, just use his auto-evades and use his speed attacks.

[fjf314]

Turtling my ass

if they turtle:

-unblockable
-high/low mixup
-throw
-guard crush

DA FUCK YOU MEAN TURTLES?

Good luck with the unblockables and guard crushes. Their start-up frames are huge, and you have plenty of time to sidestep the move and punish the hell out of it. The only way they're going to hit is if you're playing some newbie who is going to suffer the deer-in-headlights effect when they see it coming.

[tsubame]

You forgot Taki as having a good high-low game. Taki is very offensive. Taki is also definitely not high tier. Upper-mid at best, most likely dead mid. Also, there is less difference between the top and bottom tier in SC2 then most games. VF is better in this regard, but SC isn't bad.

Let's put it this way. I'd have about 5 times as much chance using Yunsung against Xianghua then say, Kuma against Nina, or 3 of just about anybody vs a top tier MVC2 team (well, since I don't play that, I would have no chance).

[MKKID]

Whoever says that SC2 isn't turtle friendly. Play Tekken 4 then play SC2 and tell me that again.

[graffiti_sex]

Ok . .I was throwing out the possibilities of attack against a turtle.

I got quoted by like 198 people :confused:

alright. . I'll try to hit some key points

-A true turtle will eat a UB or a GC just because turtles tend to have "deer in headlights" syndrome. If you are getting smashed then you just need to up your game. It's not like getting rushed is the end of the world.

-Nightmares 3B, B does not crush. A A [ B] crushes. The last B in AAB is the same as the last hit in 3B, B.. but that one does NOT crush.

-Dan the Nightmare. . lol big deal? Watching tournament videos during the final brackets of ANY GAME is stupid. . because by then they want that big ass money pot so they wont try anything stupid.

-High low game consists of man made strategies. Ivy for instance . .not much of a high low game. . you have to cancel and ect. For her mixup to be used effectively(9+A+B, A. .skip the last A and 2A instead, her fastest low). . so in turn EVERYBODY has decent enough high low game to punish bulldogs. Tekken 5 is worse at punishment actually. .the low jabs STILL come out a little too quick, where as a seasoned SC2 player can guard impact and parry all day long.

-and I WAS talking about the overall speed on Tekken 5. It IS faster. I got that STRAIGHT from Tekkenzaibatsu from the Tekken 5 incomplete test versions before the game was even released.

-And running around the ring in SC2 for the most part is stupid. Especially since there is a button devoted to horizontal attacks, so stepping to the side is just crazy. I always though it was funny how a scrubby Raphael would literally try to dance around the ring on a decent Ivy or Nightmare and get DESTROYED>!!!!

What's really fun is pissing off offensive players with Raphael. No need to GI or turtle with him, just use his auto-evades and use his speed attacks.
Raphaels fatal flaw is that his auto evades are only useful against single hit attacks.

-So you might evade the first hit of Talims 44+A, but you're bound to get ripped by the A, 236+B

Honestly, if SCIII is real, I'm just hoping for the following
- throw game emphasized more/ harder to counter, especially for grapple heavy characters (Astaroth, Taki)
Taki?(PO rush. . baits .. ect) . .Astaroth? Huh? (PT. . ?) Thats at the most.

Ivy's throw game is much more complex. It they added another command throw to her movelist she would be a monster.

I mean really, WHO THE FUCK is just gonna stand there and get hit by an GC or unblockable? And throws are EASY to break in SC2. Turtling is the way to go in SC2. Its that strong.
You would be suprised. Anyway . .theres still the various mixups. Unblockable cancels .. quick lows. Turtles are no problem . .if the "turtles" are stopping attacks and blocking at the same time you arent dealing with a turtle, they are bulldogs using rushdown tactics. .which is completely different than turtling.

-Tekken is more about "getting the first hit in" than soulcalibur. Because Guard Impacts ARE so easy to do.

[tsubame]

Basically, Astaroth should have more grapplesthen he does now.
That being said, he also has crouching grabs.

Raph's counters should mostly be used against power attacks, GI the jabbity death stuff, or better jab, out-jabbity them- you do have some of the quickest light attacks, which mix up well (AA, AB, A, down+A do mix up fairly well)

Ivy does have more setups, she's definitely a tourney-worthy character due to her wide variety of tactics, but she isn't so overwhelming that she's the best. I haven't read too much about SC tournies, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some good character diversity with winners.

As for running, I could see a Raph running, looking for the sideswipe, cancelling to his counter, then doing a quick poke in return, but he'd be better off just poking. Raph doesn't want to be back to ring though, his RO game is decent so he should look for a quick position reverse.

[Zigmover21]

-A true turtle will eat a UB or a GC just because turtles tend to have "deer in headlights" syndrome.

No, someone who's mentally worn down or inexperienced has the "deer in headlights" syndrome. You don't need crazy reaction time to duck, sidestep, backdash, interrupt, or GI UB/GC moves because the majority of them aren't very good. GC moves in particular are very weak vs passive sidestep, and if you're training them not to abuse that you might as well go for a mixup anyway once they stop moving 'cause it'd be way faster.

-Nightmares 3B, B does not crush. A A [ B] crushes. The last B in AAB is the same as the last hit in 3B, B.. but that one does NOT crush.

A,A,[B] is also a horrible string. Nightmare's A,A in general is just shitty.

-Dan the Nightmare. . lol big deal? Watching tournament videos during the final brackets of ANY GAME is stupid. . because by then they want that big ass money pot so they wont try anything stupid.

What about any Mick vs RTD finals where they played for real? Or X_SC2? Or Eternal Fighter? Or Aris vs DTN in France? Or Devil X vs anybody? There's plenty of hardcore turtling to go around.

-High low game consists of man made strategies. Ivy for instance . .not much of a high low game. . you have to cancel and ect. For her mixup to be used effectively(9+A+B, A. .skip the last A and 2A instead, her fastest low). .

9A+B "mixups" are only good if you can quickly do SS/CS and it was only scary early on to begin with. And 2A isn't low genius.

so in turn EVERYBODY has decent enough high low game to punish bulldogs.

I thought we were discussing how to break turtles. :confused:

Tekken 5 is worse at punishment actually. .the low jabs STILL come out a little too quick, where as a seasoned SC2 player can guard impact and parry all day long.

This statement makes no God damn sense. You don't seem to know what punishment is.

-And running around the ring in SC2 for the most part is stupid. Especially since there is a button devoted to horizontal attacks, so stepping to the side is just crazy.

It's called step-guard. Hell, horizontals sucked before that was even discovered 'cause hardly any of them track. In fact, SC2 has very little tracking to begin with.

-Tekken is more about "getting the first hit in" than soulcalibur. Because Guard Impacts ARE so easy to do.

Another statement that makes no sense. Soul Calibur has much better movement, larger stages, a shorter time limit, and a rather obscene average level of safety on block. Winning via time-over is quite practical if you have the patience.

[JamMasterJom]

If a turtle gets hit by an unblockable or a guard crush chances are that turtle isn't good at ALL.

Nightmare's 3B certainly DOES crush. I've only played the game a couple times and I know that for a fact.

And as you said, in the finals of a tournament people are going to turtle. Yeah, they are, in SC2. If attacking was as good as you claim it is then turtling would be the stupid thing to do in that situation, but it isn't, and never has been. SC2 is a turtles game.

Tracking is terrible in SC2. Just because there is a horizontal attack button doesn't mean that they're going to hit step. Step is god, very few moves can consistently beat it.

[snakedizzle209]

I just played SC2 yesterday for the 1st time in like 3 or 4 months. After playing so much Tekken 5 I started to see all of soul calibur's biggesst flaws. If SC3 isnt completely different then the games gonna play like shit compared to t5. When I used to play SC2 I thought it was great. Now I cant see myself going back to it. I hope SC3 is good.

[HitBattousai]

Nightmare's 3B does not crush even when Soul Charged, it does have priority over most any move executed at the exact same time though so it does "crush" them :).

SC2 can be played in a variety of ways, turtling can be very effective, but by the same token you can have a heavily offensive-based X like Kayane's(who has beaten RTD), suppression game Taki with Floe, and crazy stuff like Hayate's Yunsung, and Spyder's Maxi. There are a lot of ways to play successfully in SC2, turtling just happens to be one of them. Doesn't mean that it's always gonna win.

Not every horizontal move is designed to hit step. You learn the ones that do, and you punish people that step too much with them. Stepping is far from god-tier stuff though it is good.

And on the main topic, as people have said in this thread, the primary reason SC2 isn't cool to play anymore is not that it's a bad game, it's a great game. It's just that Tekken 5 has been around in arcades a while and is now out on PS2. It's the new hotness, and with Soul Calibur 3 supposedly coming out in the fall, there's not much reason to get juiced up about playing SC2 anymore since the sequel isn't far away.

[Sacred Edge KH]

Yeah, but it's not to meant for multi-hit attacks. It's best for the strong slashes that say Astaroth would have. Using an evade against characters like Talim or Maxi would be stupid anyway, there's a different plan for that.

[coN]

Ok . .I was throwing out the possibilities of attack against a turtle.

I got quoted by like 198 people :confused:

alright. . I'll try to hit some key points

-A true turtle will eat a UB or a GC just because turtles tend to have "deer in headlights" syndrome. If you are getting smashed then you just need to up your game. It's not like getting rushed is the end of the world.

-Nightmares 3B, B does not crush. A A [ B] crushes. The last B in AAB is the same as the last hit in 3B, B.. but that one does NOT crush.

-Dan the Nightmare. . lol big deal? Watching tournament videos during the final brackets of ANY GAME is stupid. . because by then they want that big ass money pot so they wont try anything stupid.

-High low game consists of man made strategies. Ivy for instance . .not much of a high low game. . you have to cancel and ect. For her mixup to be used effectively(9+A+B, A. .skip the last A and 2A instead, her fastest low). . so in turn EVERYBODY has decent enough high low game to punish bulldogs. Tekken 5 is worse at punishment actually. .the low jabs STILL come out a little too quick, where as a seasoned SC2 player can guard impact and parry all day long.

-and I WAS talking about the overall speed on Tekken 5. It IS faster. I got that STRAIGHT from Tekkenzaibatsu from the Tekken 5 incomplete test versions before the game was even released.

-And running around the ring in SC2 for the most part is stupid. Especially since there is a button devoted to horizontal attacks, so stepping to the side is just crazy. I always though it was funny how a scrubby Raphael would literally try to dance around the ring on a decent Ivy or Nightmare and get DESTROYED>!!!!


Raphaels fatal flaw is that his auto evades are only useful against single hit attacks.

-So you might evade the first hit of Talims 44+A, but you're bound to get ripped by the A, 236+B


Taki?(PO rush. . baits .. ect) . .Astaroth? Huh? (PT. . ?) Thats at the most.

Ivy's throw game is much more complex. It they added another command throw to her movelist she would be a monster.


You would be suprised. Anyway . .theres still the various mixups. Unblockable cancels .. quick lows. Turtles are no problem . .if the "turtles" are stopping attacks and blocking at the same time you arent dealing with a turtle, they are bulldogs using rushdown tactics. .which is completely different than turtling.

-Tekken is more about "getting the first hit in" than soulcalibur. Because Guard Impacts ARE so easy to do.
God... :rofl:

I just pissed myself again...

Do you play any REAL good players? Running around is stupid? Stepping in SC2 is fucking STRONG. Play Nori. Throw out an A, he will 95% of the time step it and launch you. A's ARE stepable in SC2, as demonstrated by Nori. He can step A's so well its fucking retarded. Other players can step A's as well, but no one as good as him. A's arent a reliable answer for step if your opponent can step well.

GI's ARE NOT the answer for everything. "Seasoned" SC2 players RARELY use it.

Good turtles DO NOT freeze at an unblockable or GC. If they just stand there and get hit by it, holding G, THEY MUST FUCKING SUCK. You seem to lack a shit load of knowledge in what a good turtle possesses.

BTW, NMs AA[B] is a shitty string.

Get more knowledge, then come back here...

[ThePurpleBunny]

You need to take something for that incontenence problem.

Soul Calibur II is still "cool" to play, if you feel like playing it, go ahead, just don't expect much competition now. The game's 3 years old, I would bet quite a good bit of arcade machines holding SC2 are busted up and not that good, and you know arcade operators may not care enough to fix the machine if there's no interest in it. The game's just been played out. It doesn't mean the game is now "bad", which, if you need to play it for 2 years to somehow decide it now sucks, then go back in time and punch yourself in the eye for not deciding that when you had a legitamite chance. SC2 is a great game, still is. Though you can probably bet a bit of renewed interest when SC3 gets ready for launch, people will want to practice up on it.

And I fail to see how SC2 is considered a "turtlers" game, when you cannot logically have both players turtling at the same time, not when one has lower health than the other. The one player that's lower on heath has to be the offensive player, and it is not that hard to knock off turtling in SC2. If you have a player that keeps guarding, mix up your weapon and kicks high and low, not just rely on your weapon. Kicks can come out much faster than weapon attacks. If you throw them, mix up the A+G and B+G, that's what they're there for. If they press the wrong escape button, that's their problem. Throws DO track sidestep by the way, the character will instantly turn and do the grab. Use 6+A/B/K up close since those are the quickest up close attacks, mix those up with high and low kicks. Fake your unblockables, start them up, then cancel them, don't actaully follow them through. Just like faking your regular attacks (pressing G right after A, B, or K), attempt to make them move. If they don't move, look above and read again.

[MegaFool_X]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........

I fucking laughed until i pissed myself after reading this...

I mean really, WHO THE FUCK is just gonna stand there and get hit by an GC or unblockable? And throws are EASY to break in SC2. Turtling is the way to go in SC2. Its that strong.

You talk nonsense. All you need is a level 2 SC and use a decent heavy hitting attack. Boom, you just knocked somebody off of there balance. Of course, you never know if their gonna try to guard impact, but the heavier the attack, the harder it is to GI. Better yet, cancel auto SC unblockables and when they start to freak and try to hit you, surprise em with some jugglin shit man.

[Febreze]

You should all just play kof maximum impact and quit whining.

[coN]

You talk nonsense. All you need is a level 2 SC and use a decent heavy hitting attack. Boom, you just knocked somebody off of there balance. Of course, you never know if their gonna try to guard impact, but the heavier the attack, the harder it is to GI. Better yet, cancel auto SC unblockables and when they start to freak and try to hit you, surprise em with some jugglin shit man.
...

No.

[Nori]

You talk nonsense. All you need is a level 2 SC and use a decent heavy hitting attack. Boom, you just knocked somebody off of there balance. Of course, you never know if their gonna try to guard impact, but the heavier the attack, the harder it is to GI. Better yet, cancel auto SC unblockables and when they start to freak and try to hit you, surprise em with some jugglin shit man.Your name implies the comments. Seriously, what the hell are you people talking about? Honestly, name some high level players who actually agree w/you, and I'll stop right now.

First of all, NOBODY in the SC2 world uses A, A, B w/NM. Why? The 3rd hit is stepped and you're dead, easily. Scrubs

SC2 is the most known turtlers 3D game out, if you dispute that, you have never been in any good tourney, please stop playing Survival mode and know your shit. Throws track? Since when. Me and countless other people who have mastered stepping will get around it. The stepping system is so unbalanced, it's stupid. Cervantes, Ivy and hell, even Mitsu can Step-G MORE than half the shit in this game. I've played this seriously for 2 years, yet I do agree, the game is now almost completely dead. If it was like SC, it'd be a different story

Seriously guys, don't just spout off shit to be cool. Read some info on www.soulcalibur.com so you sound a little smarter.

[SynikaL]

Don't B dominant throws track slightly?



-Kimo

[BIG BAD MOG]

No, not that I know of.

Who really has enough time to do a level 2 SC? The only thing that I can think of about people believing about Nightmare's 3B being a guard crush is that they mistake it for 4[B]. Not that great a move.

[JamMasterJom]

My mistake, by crush I figured he was talking about tech crouching under highs. That stupid term has ruined me.

[ThePurpleBunny]

I apologize, Nori's correct on the sidestep. You CAN sidestep a throw, but only at the same time the throw is attempted. I could only avoid it on a simultaneous sidestep against the attempt. Like I said earlier however if you're beside someone, the throw will track as the character instantly turns to attempt the throw, but you can still sidestep it, as long as you step in the right direction. Nightmare missed if I stepped to my character's left, but if I step to the right, the throw connects anyway, this is how it "tracks".

[Zigmover21]

Throws are very unreliable vs step, even when next to someone. Their poor range doesn't help either. And honestly, it's not like throws are that strong to begin with. 13 frame break window is pretty big.

If you have a player that keeps guarding, mix up your weapon and kicks high and low, not just rely on your weapon. Kicks can come out much faster than weapon attacks.

You're attemtping to define something that doesn't exist. Whether or not a move is done with Kick has no bearing on its speed or properties. In fact, the majority of good pokes and fast moves tend to be with AA's, 2A's, and B's.

Use 6+A/B/K up close since those are the quickest up close attacks, mix those up with high and low kicks.

There is no basis to this assumption. It's all dependant on your character.

Fake your unblockables, start them up, then cancel them, don't actaully follow them through.

And for what? Faking unblockables is rarely worth anything in the long run.

[Outkast]

Shesshhh :lame:

Play the game if you like and it makes you happy. Its turtle fest and buggy??? O well, me and my set of calibur/gamer friends aren't that good to see those flaws yet. I think its fun, so I play it. Nightmare owns maan....

swords are cool!!!! where's Mace 2???!!!!!

Mike

[EnderWiggin]

All you scrubs that have never played SC2 at high levels (graffiti_chex) -- STFU. M'kay?!

What else?

Hmmm...

Yoshi pwns.

[Klizza]

There is always some humor in reading SC2 threads on srk. Anyway....it depends on your local scene. In some places it's active, in others it's just dull.

Not all guard crushes are "predictable". It's all about choice and timing. If you try stuff like Raph's 4B,[B] or Taki's 44B then you're just giving away a free hit. Learn the soul charged crushes and incorporate them. Some knowledge of advanced tactics makes this much easier. If you're want to gc someone with NM, use SC1 NLS A+B.
Personally I SC cancel frequently. Why?
1. opens up gcs
2. can be used it for baits/training
3. its fun and fast.
Even if you're not in a position to capitalize off a gc, use one when you can connect. Instill that fear of vulnerability in the person. I'll throw out a SC1 3B+K with Ivy even though I can't do shit if I connect. Either the person if gonna think
1. Don't let him charge because he can gc me
2. His gc isn't anything to worry about (another issue all together).
In the case of 1 I can use canceling as a bait for an attack. In the case of 2, that opens up more windows and I hope you can see what I'm talking about (don't wanna type if its not needed).

As is said before it's about choice and timing. If you wanna do something like X's [A+K], B, just to it at the right time. Mixup before hand if you can sense the person knows what you're trying to do.

On the turtling issue...
If you play someone really good and show that you can't block basic strings or block well period, you will get murdered. If you seem afraid to attack you will get raped. You have to know how to turtle until an opening is given to you, and then take it. Identifying what type of opponent you have is very important (playing style wise). I've embarassed many extreme turtlers with NM. 3[B], B, (opponent rising) 66A+K, A+B+K~G, 4 B+K, A+B, B, A+B+K~G, 22B+K, A+B,....just as an example.
Oh, but what if...yadda yadda. I wouldn't do somehthing like that on someone if I didn't see a chance of it working. Hell I even got the spin after the 2nd charge just incase the opponent tries to rise with a linear move.

On the boring vids issue...
It's been addressed and should pretty much be common knowledge to anyone who plays any fighter on the competitive level. All the fancy crap stays in exhibition or vs the cpu. In SC2 aside from Yoshi and X you might not see any high flying moves come finals. Shiet I damn near bust out laughing when I just A rape a character (come on, it funny seeing someone get chipped to death trying to sidestep/poke back), but I wouldn't do that for more than 3 secs during a tourney.

...blah I typed more than I wanted.

[graffiti_sex]

-The insults are ridiculous. Geez. . Soul Caliburs not a bad game despite what anybody that "really plays videogames' has to say. Tekken 5 has it's flaws too.

-And for the last time. . Nightmares 3B does not guard crush. Dont argue with me . .turn that shit on and see for yourself.

-Call it a turtles game all you want, it goes both ways. The match should be in YOUR favor if you're dealing with such predictable "turtles", so I dont see why "turtles" make the game so "stupid"

For the most part I dont even feel like explaining everything I didnt agree with because some of you rather be dicks about it and insult my intelligence or whatever. Shit I like that game and I know people like me who still play it too.

It's only a matter of time before Soul Calibur 3 is released and Tekken 5 is blackballed just like Soul Calibur 2.

[Zigmover21]

-Call it a turtles game all you want, it goes both ways. The match should be in YOUR favor if you're dealing with such predictable "turtles", so I dont see why "turtles" make the game so "stupid"

In other words, you can't disprove any facts someone brings up 'cause you don't know what you're talking about.

Shit I like that game and I know people like me who still play it too.

Hope you're happy as-is, 'cause you won't be getting much comp for a dead game.

It's only a matter of time before Soul Calibur 3 is released and Tekken 5 is blackballed just like Soul Calibur 2.

It's not a good sign when the best you can do is talk about games that aren't even out yet.

[Spanky]

-And for the last time. . Nightmares 3B does not guard crush. Dont argue with me . .turn that shit on and see for yourself.
Read JMJ's post again...he was refering to a different sort of "crush", not the typical SC2 crush you are coining here.

[graffiti_sex]

lol@you

trigger happy motherfucker .. .

[SNkNuT]

I still play SC2 occasionally. Its a more easier game for my friends to mash on than Tekken or VF

[MegaFool_X]

Your name implies the comments. Seriously, what the hell are you people talking about? Honestly, name some high level players who actually agree w/you, and I'll stop right now.

First of all, NOBODY in the SC2 world uses A, A, B w/NM. Why? The 3rd hit is stepped and you're dead, easily. Scrubs

SC2 is the most known turtlers 3D game out, if you dispute that, you have never been in any good tourney, please stop playing Survival mode and know your shit. Throws track? Since when. Me and countless other people who have mastered stepping will get around it. The stepping system is so unbalanced, it's stupid. Cervantes, Ivy and hell, even Mitsu can Step-G MORE than half the shit in this game. I've played this seriously for 2 years, yet I do agree, the game is now almost completely dead. If it was like SC, it'd be a different story

Seriously guys, don't just spout off shit to be cool. Read some info on www.soulcalibur.com so you sound a little smarter.

I apologize. Most of the people I play with don't play like a freak-of-nature/turtler/chump. When the game is actually played competitively, you don't get stupid matches where people all want to wait for you to attack and thats it. Not many games where meant for turtles. If you only do some of the combo commands, like three or four, then yeah, you may qualify as a turtle. But what the hell, because people found out that turtling is more effective than an all out rush down, the game sucks? It wasn't meant to be that way. I think most of the people who think the game sucks now just arn't playing the game with enough variety anymore. Got used to play the CPU who never turtles. Iono, maybe the peeps I play with suck, maybe then don't know how to play SCII (don't know how to turtle). You should play the way it feels comfortable, but you shouldn't just rely on turtleing, play with strategy instead. Visually and practically, the game moves that are just as good as any Tekken game. I guess its not really your fault if you don't like SCII anymore especially if you pay like 50cents for each credit. You would wanna ensure that you win every match the easiest way possible. Don't really require too much skill save for reaction. But I just don't like turtleing with people like Xianghua (my fav). IMO finding out that turtling is all that you need to do doesn't mean a game sucks, but when thats all you do in a match against any given oppenent is when the game sucks for you. It may be broken in that sense, maybe. Maybe, its not meant to be played by higher level players out there. Maybe its a noob game. Who know, you only have what you think. But it is still a good game!

[coN]

I apologize. Most of the people I play with don't play like a freak-of-nature/turtler/chump. When the game is actually played competitively, you don't get stupid matches where people all want to wait for you to attack and thats it. Not many games where meant for turtles. If you only do some of the combo commands, like three or four, then yeah, you may qualify as a turtle. But what the hell, because people found out that turtling is more effective than an all out rush down, the game sucks? It wasn't meant to be that way. I think most of the people who think the game sucks now just arn't playing the game with enough variety anymore. Got used to play the CPU who never turtles. Iono, maybe the peeps I play with suck, maybe then don't know how to play SCII (don't know how to turtle). You should play the way it feels comfortable, but you shouldn't just rely on turtleing, play with strategy instead. Visually and practically, the game moves that are just as good as any Tekken game. I guess its not really your fault if you don't like SCII anymore especially if you pay like 50cents for each credit. You would wanna ensure that you win every match the easiest way possible. Don't really require too much skill save for reaction. But I just don't like turtleing with people like Xianghua (my fav). IMO finding out that turtling is all that you need to do doesn't mean a game sucks, but when thats all you do in a match against any given oppenent is when the game sucks for you. It may be broken in that sense, maybe. Maybe, its not meant to be played by higher level players out there. Maybe its a noob game. Who know, you only have what you think. But it is still a good game!
WHAT THE FLYING FUCK IS THIS GUY TRYING TO SAY?

Who in their right fucking mind is gonna read this shit? Use paragraphs.

To anyone who reads it, does it fucking make sense?

[Klizza]

I apologize. Most of the people I play with don't play like a freak-of-nature/turtler/chump. When the game is actually played competitively, you don't get stupid matches where people all want to wait for you to attack and thats it

Do you play the game competitively because it seems like you don't.
Turtling isn't just guarding all day because if it was, no turtle would win. It's being a lot more defensive than offensive.
A footsie/ranging game may be boring to an average onlooker, but be one of the people playing and you'll see there is a lot more going on than just tippy-toeing and swinging. What move to use, the range of the move, ways to avoid the move, speed and recovery, what am I leaving myself open to, am I becoming readable..just a few things going through a person's head.

It seems like some people have a problem understanding the concept of turtling (it can change from game to game).
Not many games where meant for turtles. If you only do some of the combo commands, like three or four, then yeah, you may qualify as a turtle
That's not a turtle, that's someone who doesn't know much of a person's movelist. I could play Xianghua using only 5 moves and be far from what people consider a turtle. Strings should rarely be followed through because a competitive player should know everyone's strings. That leaves the player open for GI/parries, being stepped, and interruption.

Playing against the cpu shouldn't be mentioned, it's all practice. Even on the hardest setting, the cpu is still abuseable/easy to manipulate.
Here I go typing more than I wanted again....

[Zigmover21]

lol, what's with all this random scrub talk over a dead game? You guys play trash competition and now you think you know anything? Where were you at Nats? At Evo? At MLG? V-Games? NEC? T.I.T. and TS? EC5? Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up.

[justcusimasian]

I was at NEC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Klizza]

lol, what's with all this random scrub talk over a dead game? You guys play trash competition and now you think you know anything? Where were you at Nats? At Evo? At MLG? V-Games? NEC? T.I.T. and TS? EC5? Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up.
Someone needs a hug.

[unsmart]

Soul Calibur sucks because the computer department at the Fry's I work at plays it really loud on their goddamn projector display all day. And customers always pick some loud annoying character and spam one move all day. "Just kidding! Just kidding! Just kidding!" They also pick Spawn a lot, and Spawn is lame in general. The overly dramatic intro grates my nerves too.

[Spanky]

5 move whore-X rushdown owns!

[graffiti_sex]

A lot of you guys are rude as fuck. It's irritating if you cant even hold a conversation with out a bunch of bitches crying and making fun of grammar.

and lol@Soul Calibur 2 being dead and MarvelVsCapcom 2 is still supposedly going strong in Cali after almost 5 years.

[BIG BAD MOG]

You guys can argue about how you think that SC2 is a good game and all. Really, that's okay. For your local comp and casualness, that's all fun and games. In regards to higher level comp, it is not considered a fun fun game because turtlers DO and WILL always dominate the scene. Sure, it doesn't seem fair, but those are the facts. Until you have played some high level SC2 players, you cannot justify your abilities as being on par or even plausible. Here, I'll even give you an example:

If you play poker, and going in with a 5,7 suited seems to be great and all in your local partying, sure, work with it. But when you are up with the pros, that hand is just plain suicide and there are many reasons why you shouldn't do that and how it is what it is. Now what am I emphasizing? You cannot argue against turtling not being dominant in this game and SC2 having a low major competetive scene unless you have played with the big boys. Yes, there were lots of pointless examples and words in this post, but hey, I just got home from work.

[Zigmover21]

A lot of you guys are rude as fuck. It's irritating if you cant even hold a conversation with out a bunch of bitches crying and making fun of grammar.

So you still can't work with facts it seems.

and lol@Soul Calibur 2 being dead and MarvelVsCapcom 2 is still supposedly going strong in Cali after almost 5 years.

Asside from the fact that Marvel's been dying for almost 2 years now.....so what? MvC2 had longevity. SC2 was alive only when there was nothing else to play for 3d peeps.

[justcusimasian]

5 move whore-X rushdown owns!

Not as much as 5 move whore X turtling.

[graffiti_sex]

So you still can't work with facts it seems.



Asside from the fact that Marvel's been dying for almost 2 years now.....so what? MvC2 had longevity. SC2 was alive only when there was nothing else to play for 3d peeps.

When I was talking about the assholes in the thread I meant you in particular.

Despite anything anybody said you're still rude, so I'm not even trying to hear what you're saying. So like seriously get a life dude, I dont come here to have it out with you over a game.

peace out

[Zigmover21]

I wasn't aware I'm under some obligation to be polite, especially when someone's talking out of their ass. :rolleyes: My initial response to you contained no offensive language whatsoever, yet you never bothered to refute it.

Now you keep coming back with more excuses 'cause belligerent language on a message board somehow impedes your ability to present any kind of argument. Plus I apparently have no life because I expect you to back up what you're saying or else think you're all talk. Guess I'll assume the latter.

[FrAnkDAdAnk]

I wasn't aware I'm under some obligation to be polite, especially when someone's talking out of their ass. :rolleyes: My initial response to you contained no offensive language whatsoever, yet you never bothered to refute it.

Now you keep coming back with more excuses 'cause belligerent language on a message board somehow impedes your ability to present any kind of argument. Plus I apparently have no life because I expect you to back up what you're saying or else think you're all talk. Guess I'll assume the latter.
When did you grow some nuts zig??? =p f,f B with taki owned you back in the day AND IT'LL OWN YOU NOW!!!!! Man this game is horrible

[JamMasterJom]

Fuck you, guy.

That was when.

[tsubame]

Here's the next point: Assuming SC2 is a turtle game, how active and deep is the turtling? Turtling style can be an artform just as well-developed as rushdown, or just as mindless, depending on the game.

I still think some characters are best played with a more aggressive mindset, and many of those characters aren't crappy. Also, I think the tiering in SC2 is a lot closer then it is in other games- some characters are a bit better, but it's nothing like MvC2 or SFA2's big 4's, or tekken 4 Jin, or ABC from KOF2k2. Probably a bit worse then VF4 in terms of balance, but still just about every character is tournament capable (console, arcade has more lower-mids and bottoms)

[Zigmover21]

The very elements that make the game turtle-friendly also kill diversity.

And the balance is hella boring. It's all dependant on sub-systems, not the characters' actual abilities. This is the main reason why some characters who are actually quite good never saw the light of day in tournies; no reason to pick them.

[Dark Geese]

Guys go to www.soulcalibur.com/forums SC3 IS REAL. And believe that guy USMCOgre, I go to Tekkenzaibatsu, he is a PREMIER MEMBER. Hes on the EVO DVDS and he plays with PAUL PHOENXI The guy knows his shit...

[SNK Miguel]

3d fighters are just gay to begin with

[OhNoos]

/|\
.|
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Don't suppose you play Iori do you...

[Chupacabra]

The very elements that make the game turtle-friendly also kill diversity.

And the balance is hella boring. It's all dependant on sub-systems, not the characters' actual abilities. This is the main reason why some characters who are actually quite good never saw the light of day in tournies; no reason to pick them.

what is a sub system?

[Dark Geese]

Yes very true, GI is not the be all answer. Seriously!!!! 2g beats most Post GI setups. Re-GI-ing is noobish really it is. GI only if you can set it up and get some thing like with NM's 4G you got guaranteed a 1A. I love STEP-G THOUGH!! 868 STEP-G IS BROKE AS FUCK!!!