Creating a Non-Big 4 MvC2 tournament league, gathering opinions

[Eric J]

Recently I’ve been thinking about trying to create a mid-tier tournament scene in MvC2, so I’ve decided to put this poll up and get players’ opinions on this. I’ve talked to a few of the local players and they think it is a good idea as well. With all of the talk that MvC2 is dead, and also the influx of people on the SRK board that like playing low tier, this seems like a valid proposal, does it not? So basically, you could call it Non-Big 4 (NB4) Marvel. Since it seems like everything has been found in competitive Marvel (though I doubt that), this could be a breath of fresh air for the scene. There is a little dilemma I have with Iron Man though, should he be considered top-tier as well, due to his infinite and the ease of killing whole team when he connects it? Should Heavyweight Marvel actually have a Big 5 instead of a Big 4? I call it Heavyweight as an analogy to the boxing world with Heavyweights, Middle, Welter, etc. There could be dominators in both classes however, as I and probably many others have seen J. Wong cripple even top tier teams with his mid tiers. I know there are mid tier tourneys sporadically popping up in different places, but this is a call for a more national (maybe even international?) scene. Also I’d like to ask, what teams do people think would dominate NB4 Marvel? I would love for this scene to get created, so the mid tier characters would be developed to their highest potential, due to tournament play. :karate:

Mods, may I please have a sticky?

[subzero44]

Remeber strider/doom and spiral/sabertooth, and juggernaught. They would still have a peak advantage.

[Juggrknott]

Nice concept, but I see 2 hurdles:

1) Decreased legitimacy... you'll get a lot of heat about that.

2) Decreased challenge.... a lot of the point of being good with low tier is being able to say "yeah, I can in fact beat average Mag or Storm with so-and-so". That all gets taken away when you mandate low tier.


And IM is not Big 4; it's a great infinite, but past that he can pretty much get his a$$ beat just like the rest of the cast. And yes, I realize that there are a few very deadly IMs out there.

[Eric J]

Remeber strider/doom and spiral/sabertooth, and juggernaught. They would still have a peak advantage.

True, but their are counters to them, mainly psylocke and cyclops, well actually I have never played against Spiral/Sabertooth. But you know, just like in top tier Marvel, people have to learn how to fight it. Like Ruby Heart is great against Spiral right? Or Strider can counter Spiral too, right.

[Ill E]

Also I’d like to ask, what teams do people think would dominate NB4 Marvel?



Rogue/tron/cyke would dominate
rogue/capcom/XX also

megaman/ tron/XX also

Like Ruby Heart is great against Spiral right? .

I don't know for sure if Ruby is great against spiral... but i do know that ruby's wave move (qcf+k) completely erases all projectiles (except storm's) , including spiral's knives, so ruby has that advantage by taking away the most important part of spiral's game.

[Adam Warlock]

All you'll do is cause new tiers to emerge. Strider/IM/Doom looks viable

[Eric J]

Nice concept, but I see 2 hurdles:

1) Decreased legitimacy... you'll get a lot of heat about that.

2) Decreased challenge.... a lot of the point of being good with low tier is being able to say "yeah, I can in fact beat average Mag or Storm with so-and-so". That all gets taken away when you mandate low tier.


And IM is not Big 4; it's a great infinite, but past that he can pretty much get his a$$ beat just like the rest of the cast. And yes, I realize that there are a few very deadly IMs out there.

Hey what up Rod, well I don't quite get what you mean about decreased legitimacy. Could you explain. As far as challenge, well, I do think lower tier characters would be developed more, but more or less this is supposed to be an arena for mid tier, so I think the challenge is still there. I mean for example I see someone like Wong winning against top tier with mid tier teams, even winning some tourneys with them. So he may enter a NB4 tourney, the challenge will still be there for the other players. Also it's not like you have to play in only one arena. Personally, I would probably enter both.

[fatboy]

I am a noobe at this game are the big 4:

1) Sent
2) Strom
3) Mag
4) Capn' Comando (as an assist)

[Nagata Lock II]

While the idea is at least new, it doesn't really change anything. Eliminating the top tier only pushes the next tier (Iron Man, Strider, Doom, Rogue, etc...) up to the top tier. As evidenced in teams earlier in this thread, you'd just have new combinations that dominate (because those same combination are already viable threats to true top tier teams) and the rest are still as useless as ever.

One would figure that despite there always being an established top tier, players have gone out of their way over the last five years to actually break the rest of the characters in the hope that they will emerge as the next big thing in Marvel and shake things up. Bottom line is that hasn't happened and won't happen so we should be content with what we have because it's all been beaten to death and have fun using mid stuff to take out top stuff.

[Robust]

im/cyke move up to top 2 basically

It might be more entertaining, but it will lose more than it gains overall imo. Just because there are only 5 teams being used may become boring locally, but when you travel i think it changes a lot.(styles,techniques,tricks,strats)
Playing the game at a lower level(overall) isn't that appealing to me, but it would be a fun ass tourney.

But yeah low tiers can easily beat top tier if YOU REALLY want to win. Justin could have probably qualified top 8 with his gambit team imo. And there are a lot of low tier players that tear shit up(justin k esp.)

[Golba loves]

It's sounds like a great idea but I see a few problems.
1) There are more characters then IM that will then be abbused.
War Machine, Spiral, Rogue, capcom, Psylock, Cyc, BH, Doom, Tron and most of all STrider. It will just end up becoming the big 10 as opposed to the big 4.

2) Assist characters will be abused more then ever because their is no one to punish them. Psylock, Cyc, doom, Tron, BH, and especially commando will piss every one off more then the big 4 already do.

3) The game will slow down dramatically. No mags, storm, and sent will make things much slower. The game will go back to the "primative ages" of BH fp + call out doom.

On the bright side it would definetely be different but I doubt it would hold.

[SNAKESHOTPEOPLE]

Yeah, a new top 4 will come up automatically. and if you take them out, another four will come up as top. All up until you only have four left in which case you still have a top 4.

[kesh!]

whats this doom/strider combo people are talking about? is there a vid somewhere of someone using them to their potential? or is it just easy catches?

[CDL]

Why don't you just have a tournament where noone can use Supers? Or wait, wait, I got it. Have a tournament where the only players you can choose are:

Dhalsim, Zangief, Charlie, or Dan.



Or, you could just put up a big sign that says, "NO SELECTING CHARACTERS THAT ARE TOO DIFFICULT FOR ME TO BEAT!"

Like, if you pick RYU,KEN, and DAN and they pick SENTINEL, CABLE, and MAGNETO, you can say, "You're disqualified because those characters are too difficult for me to beat and it's my tournament so I can do whatever I want."

[KillerKai]

Well, I used a non big 4 team for the longest time (Strider/Cyke/Doom) before I finally learned Sentinel for the first time last year. Let me just say that one of the more rewarding experiences of using non big 4 characters is beating big 4 teams in tournament play. At ECC, i already brought out my Strider/Cyke/Doom team and had it ready for specific big 4 matchups. There were also a few more characters i had ready to bring out. I probably would have brought in Iceman if I fought Julian Robinson's Blackheart or Colossus.

A tourney eliminating certain characters like the big four would be controversial because who's to tell someone like Julius Jackson that his characters aren't top tier? Or Vegita X and Joe Zaza? Who's to say they're game isn't "top tier in disguise"? Clock wouldn't have a problem adapting to this. Omega Red/Strider/Doom anyone?

But this does open a lot more opportunities for other players. Guys like Justin K and Mike Z go from Upper middle tier players to now top level threats in the tournament.

[Mark Beast]

whats this doom/strider combo people are talking about? is there a vid somewhere of someone using them to their potential? or is it just easy catches?
http://zachd.com/mvc2/#eccx

any match with kai. dude's a BEAST with strider.

[Manx]

Any videos of Spiral/Sabertooth? I've never seen that combo in action.

And, don't forget Justin K's Gambit/Morrigan/Sonson. That video like inspired me and stuff. :clap:

[9999]

I am a noobe at this game are the big 4:

1) Sent
2) Strom
3) Mag
4) Capn' Comando (as an assist)
Sent, Storm, Magneto, Cable..

CapCom is a monster assist though...

[Juggrknott]

Hey what up Rod, well I don't quite get what you mean about decreased legitimacy. Could you explain. As far as challenge, well, I do think lower tier characters would be developed more, but more or less this is supposed to be an arena for mid tier, so I think the challenge is still there. I mean for example I see someone like Wong winning against top tier with mid tier teams, even winning some tourneys with them. So he may enter a NB4 tourney, the challenge will still be there for the other players. Also it's not like you have to play in only one arena. Personally, I would probably enter both.

What's up, Eric... :cool:

"Decreased legitimacy" means responses and attitudes like CDL's... and I'm afraid that most of the people who actually still roll out for tourneys would feel similarly. Not saying what's right or wrong, just stating how I think things would be.

I've had a lot of fun with low-tier matches on the rare occasions where I can play, but when you're talking about gassing up the ride (@ today's prices, no less) and rolling out it's a major consideration. Nothing irks a serious competitor more than the feeling that they aren't being taken as a serious competitor - even if they actually *did* have fun. One thing I've learned is that people play for a variety of reasons, and another thing is that like it or not the "top tier or you're wasting your time" mantra has been ingrained into many gaming attitudes from things like Dom 101 articles and such, and it's here to stay.


It can work, it just has to be marketed to the right individuals and everybody has to be on the same page attitude-wise.

[Eric J]

Why don't you just have a tournament where noone can use Supers? Or wait, wait, I got it. Have a tournament where the only players you can choose are:

Dhalsim, Zangief, Charlie, or Dan.



Or, you could just put up a big sign that says, "NO SELECTING CHARACTERS THAT ARE TOO DIFFICULT FOR ME TO BEAT!"

Like, if you pick RYU,KEN, and DAN and they pick SENTINEL, CABLE, and MAGNETO, you can say, "You're disqualified because those characters are too difficult for me to beat and it's my tournament so I can do whatever I want."

You are missing the point. It's not that anyone's too difficult to beat. I play the top tier just like anyone else, but this is just something new, the arena for lower tiers. Well, its just that a lot of people like to play the other characters, and this is good to develop other characters in the game (not that you can't do that anyway though). Marvel changed over the years and it's pretty much determined who the top 4 are and for the most part everyone uses them. For the last part, Sent Cable Magz and Storm are out automatically so I don't know what you mean by being disqualified for picking them. One more thing it's not like you can't just play low tier in the regular tourneys anyway, if you want.

[Eric J]

Well, I used a non big 4 team for the longest time (Strider/Cyke/Doom) before I finally learned Sentinel for the first time last year. Let me just say that one of the more rewarding experiences of using non big 4 characters is beating big 4 teams in tournament play. At ECC, i already brought out my Strider/Cyke/Doom team and had it ready for specific big 4 matchups. There were also a few more characters i had ready to bring out. I probably would have brought in Iceman if I fought Julian Robinson's Blackheart or Colossus.

A tourney eliminating certain characters like the big four would be controversial because who's to tell someone like Julius Jackson that his characters aren't top tier? Or Vegita X and Joe Zaza? Who's to say they're game isn't "top tier in disguise"? Clock wouldn't have a problem adapting to this. Omega Red/Strider/Doom anyone?

But this does open a lot more opportunities for other players. Guys like Justin K and Mike Z go from Upper middle tier players to now top level threats in the tournament.

Yeah I know what you mean about it being controversial. Yeah I understand Vegita-x, zaza, are good, that doesn't stop anyone from doing what they do in regular MvC2. I think basically people in general think it is a good idea from what I gather. I think like me people would like to see new things develop. I guess a good analogy is like sports its kind of like a major/minor league or boxing having its classes. Ques, do you know how the boxing league works? I don't know that much that's why I'm asking. Do lightweights ever fight heavyweights in boxing? I guess it's something like that I'm trying to get at.

[Juggrknott]

I doubt anybody could fault you for wanting to see something different in Marvel, I mean, who can hate on that? Everybody's down for that. The loudest Marvel cheers at FR8 were probably for Mizter Ed & his bigman play. So I personally can appreciate what you're trying to do.

And low tier matches can have every bit as competitive a feel as Big 4. I wouldn't blame anybody for not wanting to do a money match with it though, or not feeling comfortable doing tournies with it if they aren't used to it. Takes a little more effort and less-than-common knowledge than many players want to bother with.


That's why it's called "low tier", I guess. :tup: :wink:

[Master Chibi]

I'm all for appreciating low tier (though I myself also play top tier) but when you do away with the reason they're low tier (that being the characters that simply excel in much every area in comparison) they lose their value as being low / mid tier. People go crazy for matches with Strider / Doom, Zaza, Vegita-X, what have you because they stand out, the folks are a testament to what you can do if you put some more work into it. On paper double Wolverine isn't even supposed to stand a chance against much any of the big four. On paper Rogue shouldn't even be a threat, but that's certainly been proven wrong, right?

Making an entire league of Zaza's / Vegita-X's lowers their stance in the community, because in essence they'd end up just like everyone else. There'd be no real obstacle to overcome, no hurdle to to jump over, because everyone would be walking the same path. Besides which, you'd end up with a mimic of the current stature of the MvC2 scene, being that it's not what characters you pick (as now everyone plays the same handful) but whether or not you can use them better than your opponent.

Regardless of that, good luck to you and whatever happens as a result.

[mvsc2demon]

removing the top tiers, will create new top tiers during the tournament so players like dan wont get a chance :sad:

[kesh!]

http://zachd.com/mvc2/#eccx

any match with kai. dude's a BEAST with strider.

ahh awesome, i now consider myself upper mid-tier at mvc2 as I knew exactly what he was going to do with strider doom before i saw it :clap: too bad i can't rom infinite for shit haha

[vegita-x]

well u could still include magneto because without certain assists he doesn't really pose a problem if u think about it. maybe if u do have magneto on your team u can not have an antir-air assits on your team and that also include tron projectol assists. u can included strider/doom because take skills to do.

uhhhhh....Rogue/ken/tron will win i promise u. ken and tron has tricks together :bgrin:

[subzero44]

Any videos of Spiral/Sabertooth? I've never seen that combo in action.

And, don't forget Justin K's Gambit/Morrigan/Sonson. That video like inspired me and stuff. :clap:
I doubt you'll be able to find any spiral/sabertooth combo's in action due to their incapabilities against top tier. The top four can break it w/ relative ease. But basically, you run spiral on point and use sabertooth projectile assist. you call out swords to keep them trapped and then you when you get to the last sword you call out sabertooth and birdie shoots at you. The good thing about the assist is even if sabertooth gets touched she still shoots you. Now if someone jumps out remember spiral can teleport, you can use swords to spin around and knock the to the ground, call out assist and repeat.

Vegita-X - if you let mag then you'd have to ban capcom and psylocke, cyclops which defeats the purpose

[vegita-x]

I doubt you'll be able to find any spiral/sabertooth combo's in action due to their incapabilities against top tier. The top four can break it w/ relative ease. But basically, you run spiral on point and use sabertooth projectile assist. you call out swords to keep them trapped and then you when you get to the last sword you call out sabertooth and birdie shoots at you. The good thing about the assist is even if sabertooth gets touched she still shoots you. Now if someone jumps out remember spiral can teleport, you can use swords to spin around and knock the to the ground, call out assist and repeat.

Vegita-X - if you let mag then you'd have to ban capcom and psylocke, cyclops which defeats the purpose


no they can 't pick antir-air assists thats all. so psylocke and cyc r ok. :tup:

[subzero44]

no they can 't pick antir-air assists thats all. so psylocke and cyc r ok. :tup:
Yeah, probably should have read the whole post, and you are right, 1 on 1 mag isn't anything special.

[Mixup]

this game has so much bullshit left in the team structure of the middle tier, people will play it for a long long time.


Psylocke/tron has crazy fuckin resets and retarded easy instant hi/repeated lows, basically if psylocke can get you to block a tron assist just once, the shit gets set into the randomizer sequence.

I wanna make a pattern video of how stupid her uf fk is.

people just need more time to make up strong mid tier teams.

and to pick tron with all your mid tier :clap:

[Renegade]

Actually, it's not really the same as "2nd tier becomes top tier", a whole new class of characters becomes viable with the removal of Cable, Storm, Sentinel. They all have abilities that shut down whole offenses. Magneto just has TOD combos.

Just think

1) how many characters become 3x more viable in tourney/casual play w/o the threat of AHVBx3?
2) how many character become viable w/o Storm Runaway (it would just change to sim runaway, maybe)
3) all of the pixies could return if sent isn't there to outlive and outstomp them.


If you're talking big 4... then Commando-B has to go, too. He shows up just as often as the big 4.

[Ill E]

Team Z ( Doom/Tron/Juggernaut) would probably dominate also.

[roninwarrior24]

Just ban all the Marvel characters (some dude said this once), and fights might actually become interesting. The only bad thing is that there will even be a big 4 for the Capcom characters (probably Mega Man, Tron, Strider, and CapCom, not too sure about this). Hey, at least noone will be complaining about Magneto or Sentinel. Anyways, with the Marvel characters gone, we might actually see low tiers being used (as most SF characters are low tier in MVC2, and they take up a lot of the Capcom side's space)

[Eric J]

well u could still include magneto because without certain assists he doesn't really pose a problem if u think about it. maybe if u do have magneto on your team u can not have an antir-air assits on your team and that also include tron projectol assists. u can included strider/doom because take skills to do.

uhhhhh....Rogue/ken/tron will win i promise u. ken and tron has tricks together :bgrin:

LOL interesting thought I really don't know...do you really think he wont be as bad? That's a bad boy there lol. Well maybe something we should consider later, I don't know. Well good to hear your response, and as far as Ken/tron well yeah, I have experimented with them they pretty nasty :badboy:

[Eric J]

I'm all for appreciating low tier (though I myself also play top tier) but when you do away with the reason they're low tier (that being the characters that simply excel in much every area in comparison) they lose their value as being low / mid tier. People go crazy for matches with Strider / Doom, Zaza, Vegita-X, what have you because they stand out, the folks are a testament to what you can do if you put some more work into it. On paper double Wolverine isn't even supposed to stand a chance against much any of the big four. On paper Rogue shouldn't even be a threat, but that's certainly been proven wrong, right?

Making an entire league of Zaza's / Vegita-X's lowers their stance in the community, because in essence they'd end up just like everyone else. There'd be no real obstacle to overcome, no hurdle to to jump over, because everyone would be walking the same path. Besides which, you'd end up with a mimic of the current stature of the MvC2 scene, being that it's not what characters you pick (as now everyone plays the same handful) but whether or not you can use them better than your opponent.

Regardless of that, good luck to you and whatever happens as a result.

It's funny that you think that Rogue shouldn't be a threat on paper? I feel opposite, actually I always thought she tied w/Iron Man as the 5th best character. For example watch vegita-x matches. Also a player here in the ATL used her nastily with Doom (that is a crazy combination there!). Anyways, as I stated before, this doesn't affect anything anyone does in the regular MvC2 scene, Vegita-x, Zaza etc. could still do what they wanted in that league, if they wanted to do this as well no prob. As far as the same handful of characters, I think that the handful of characters might be bigger in this league, if you catch my drift.

[Zaelar]

Don't spiral, doom, and blackheart pretty much guarantee a win against everyone thats not big four or them? I say get rid of them as well, so seven characters are gone. I don't think commando needs to be banned. I'd say ban tron/ironman before him. Strider won't be too overpowered without doom, but I think he is still useable.

Wasn't there a tournament not too long ago(within a year) that had cable/mag/storm/sent/bh/spiral/doom banned?

[Master Chibi]

It's funny that you think that Rogue shouldn't be a threat on paper? I feel opposite, actually I always thought she tied w/Iron Man as the 5th best character. For example watch vegita-x matches. Also a player here in the ATL used her nastily with Doom (that is a crazy combination there!).

Um, you just repeated what I already said. I stated that originally noone quite took Rogue seriously but the likes of Vegita-X and a few other emerging players have changed the thoughts of many to feel otherwise.

Anyways, as I stated before, this doesn't affect anything anyone does in the regular MvC2 scene, Vegita-x, Zaza etc. could still do what they wanted in that league, if they wanted to do this as well no prob. As far as the same handful of characters, I think that the handful of characters might be bigger in this league, if you catch my drift.

You didn't quite read what I wrote did you?

:\

[kingofkod]

I think Doom/Bh/Cap would dominate everyone, or Spiral/bh/Doom. Those teams could pretty much destroy everyone pretty easily.

[UncleSid]

i would love to see something like this happen. Playing Big 4 teams all the time is fun, but the shit is starting to get stale. Perhaps this would acuatlly but some life back into the community... i mean really, are there still people out there watching match videos of the same four damn teams.

Yes it would create a new top tier but can anybody say for sure what that top tier would be and how many would be included in it? Mid-tier has been tested... against top-tier teams. What about mid-tier to mid-tier testing? I think it would be interesting to watch people try and find the 'best' team again. Plus it would make match videos a lot more fucking interesting to watch... Mag/psy, Storm/cyke, Sent/Capcom shit gets old.

[Higher-Jin]

I've already said this the best way to handle this is to ban:

Top 4

Second tier (spiral, clops, black heart, IM)

Tronne, Commando, Psylocke, Doom.

Now you have a original game that has not seen the light of day, is there a top tier?

Sure but you have to realize that closing the gap between Silver Samurai and Dhalsim is easier than bridging the gap between Silver Samurai and Magneto.

Or even better example closing the gap between Ryu and megaman that in it is to close the gap between Ryu and cable.

Yeah you lose what? 16 characters and gain?.....40?

(oh and maybe ban warmachine but *shrug*)

[Deus]

yes, there are people watching videos of the same four teams

like robust said, the most interesting shit in this game is seeing how different regions fare against each other due to differing styles of the same teams

mag storm and sentinel all have variety to what they can do during matches, this isn't common in the lower tiers. with characters like amingo, ryu, gambit, etc have no air dash, no double or triple jump. because of these hindrances watching a bunch of low tier matches would be fuckin boring, it would be like watching "the same four teams" except without all the fancy shit those "same four teams" can do.

tired of seeing resets and zoning with sentinel and cable?

imagine watching a ken fight zangief. it would be like watching a magneto without air dash or speed against cable without a gun.

so basically, all of you can either bitch about how boring top tier is and then realize that its the same shit when its just the low tier (minus crazy resets) or you can do what people like kai, zaza, mikez, clock, vegita-x and a few others are doing and say fuck the tiering you'll win regardless.

[Japan3gro]

LOL the god isn't even gonna read the thread but basically tiers will always exist even when you take out the top 4.

[Higher-Jin]

yes, there are people watching videos of the same four teams

like robust said, the most interesting shit in this game is seeing how different regions fare against each other due to differing styles of the same teams

mag storm and sentinel all have variety to what they can do during matches, this isn't common in the lower tiers. with characters like amingo, ryu, gambit, etc have no air dash, no double or triple jump. because of these hindrances watching a bunch of low tier matches would be fuckin boring, it would be like watching "the same four teams" except without all the fancy shit those "same four teams" can do.

tired of seeing resets and zoning with sentinel and cable?

imagine watching a ken fight zangief. it would be like watching a magneto without air dash or speed against cable without a gun.

so basically, all of you can either bitch about how boring top tier is and then realize that its the same shit when its just the low tier (minus crazy resets) or you can do what people like kai, zaza, mikez, clock, vegita-x and a few others are doing and say fuck the tiering you'll win regardless.


If you ask me mvc2 is still fun, way fun I like playing my sabretooth, zangief, omega red, juggernaut teams against top tier but i think this could be a really fun game of itself. Seperate from mvc2, not "fixing it"

[TrueSephiroth]

Host ONE tournament of this, and see how it goes, then decide on after. I'm also a player of the big 4 (MSP I love you :tup: ) and imo, I think it would be rather interesting to see just one tournament where the Big 4 where not used, you'd probably see some crazy teams pop up from this, but it would be cool to watch. I have to agree though, it would be slower pace, whenever it happens or should I say, "if" it ever happens, it would be cool to see the results. Servbot/Roll/Dan<---The true Top Tier team

[Windlord0]

For those who wanted to see spiral/sabertooth in action there is a part on the "tricks of the trade/video bible collection - spiral" video that shows how that is set up. I got it off the go for broke hub a while back.

I think the tourney would be a good idea, if only to make more interesting tournamnet vids. I would love to see what the top players could pull out with little seen characters. It would at least be fun.

[DrumlinerJoe]

They set up a tourney here with no top tier characters involved. Big 4, Blackheart, Iron Man, Doom, Spiral, Cyke, Strider and Warm Machine were not allowed. All you saw were Rogue/Morrigan/Cammy/Colossus, and Tron. It was boring, repetative, and loooooong. Trust me after one of these even the scrubs didn't want another tourney like that again.

But you wanna elmeminate the big 4 and leave, so Strider/Doom/AAA would likely own everything with no problem. I would imagine BH/Cyke could do whatever they wanted too.

[Blackheart2097]

iron, cyclops and doom/commando would just rape everyone -_-

[SilverGear]

I bet under rules like that a team of BBHood/Iron Man/Juggs would see the light of day.

[Juggrknott]

A lot of this "so-and-so would own" sounds even more theory-fightered out than regular, garden-variety theory fighter (which says a lot).

Doom wouldn't run $hit, because the average player can wavedash nowadays. This isn't 2001 anymore.

Commando-b wouldn't run $hit either, it's still good but without hailstorm/AHVB/HSF backup you'd have to be a lot more cautious than I see people being ordinarily because now the fact that he sits there with his fist in the ground for a whole second of lag actually means something.


A new "top tier" would surely develop, but it might not be the characters you'd expect. Personally I'm thinking Cyke, glitched Jugg... who knows who else. Colossus becomes pretty beast too. But of course, with all that being said, my guess is no better than anybody else's.

[Kaistar]

Or even better example closing the gap between Ryu and megaman that in it is to close the gap between Ryu and cable.

Offhand, Ryu has a lot of tools Megaman doesn't. lp. SRK xx super, air hurricanes to close distance, fireballs just as fast (also variable timing), super hurricane (yes it has a purpose), much more effective AA assist (more handy I think), etc.

Sure, Megaman's great for zoning, but Ryu's more flexible in a lot of ways. Where's that Ryu player from Sac? TS, or something like that?

[Eric J]

Interesting replies, and the teams you think would be on top. Also, that most think Iron Man isn't top tier, but like the idea of NB4 Marvel. Also, I do agree with Juggrknott, it isn't 2001 anymore and new techniques learned in the game would more than likely limit or break old traps.

[Higher-Jin]

Offhand, Ryu has a lot of tools Megaman doesn't. lp. SRK xx super, air hurricanes to close distance, fireballs just as fast (also variable timing), super hurricane (yes it has a purpose), much more effective AA assist (more handy I think), etc.

Sure, Megaman's great for zoning, but Ryu's more flexible in a lot of ways. Where's that Ryu player from Sac? TS, or something like that?
Dude not to sound rude but Ryu is pretty low tier i'd take megaman any day of the week.

Lp...srk...super?

um that won't combo dude, if you mean srk xxx super you can just tiger knee it and even then it has alot of lags afterwards and on top of that even if you hit you might get crossed up if they roll.

Super hurricane....what use? it can be pushblocked and punished...you can TRY to land his semi infinite combo in the corner if you are facing away but that's impractical, outside of assists you wont' be landing it and it doesn't do THAT much damage either for the meter you waste. The only way to combo it iirc is opponent in the corner, c. lk, hadouken, xxx tatsmak but that isn't that great IMO either.

I'm assuming you mean j. fp xxx hurricane kick to close distance because ground hurricane is suicide...even j. fp hurricane has to be done sparringly or you'll get hit by AAA/Mag's short/ Ahvb although it is good.

Megaman can keep rushdown out really well with rockball traps with sent y, he has his j. fp which he can use like a sonic boom and chase after it. He has a infinite he can combo into by himself (sort of) after a air throw that's close to the ground, beat plane chip, good stamina, instant overhead roundhouse, three 1 frame ground normals (!!!) and a wall jump + some good assists (mainly projectile assist).

Megaman is pretty up there right around rogue level (under the second tier) he can keep away pretty well, is short and has damaging comboes on top of that (although he can't combo into his supers =/) j.fp does 20 damage too so even normal air comboes do nice chunks of damage.

Even so the main point was it's easier to close gaps between characters weaker than the top 4 so all this talk about it being exactly the same with a new top tier is baloney.

They set up a tourney here with no top tier characters involved. Big 4, Blackheart, Iron Man, Doom, Spiral, Cyke, Strider and Warm Machine were not allowed. All you saw were Rogue/Morrigan/Cammy/Colossus, and Tron. It was boring, repetative, and loooooong. Trust me after one of these even the scrubs didn't want another tourney like that again.

But you wanna elmeminate the big 4 and leave, so Strider/Doom/AAA would likely own everything with no problem. I would imagine BH/Cyke could do whatever they wanted too.

it took a while before we develeped the teams we have now, I also said tronne and all the other big assists should go (psylocke, doom, commando, tronne)

You can't expect people to innovate right away if people actually took it seriously people could easily start winning with zangief, or ryu or some other teams after all even in "impossible to play low tiers" mvc2 we have vegita x, viscant and joe zaza who played rogue, bison and wolverine respectively, if you can make wolverine work against current top 4 i think you can handle collosus with ryu if you don't bitch out and expect it to just happen.

BTW Of course it got repetitive you guy actually kept tronne :rofl: what the hell is a matter with you? she does TOO MUCH damage already now you take away all the top characters who do the most damage and leave tronne in? of course everyone is going to pick her as a assist.

[Banshee]

The tourney is a good idea, but if you can ban more than 4 characters, like Jin said, go ahead. IMO other than the big four, the top assists and upper mid should go as well .Capcom, Psy, Tron, as well as Cyke, Strider, Doom, Spiral , IM/WM and BH.

I can't really think of anything outright dominating once all those are gone.

Random team tourneys are cool too. I hosted one a long time ago. Same characters for both players in the matchup, but they choose the order and assist.

[Higher-Jin]

Just seeing what i have so far, it makes for some interesting combinations.

I mean on the one hand you still have anakaris, sim and rogue but also you don't have alot of assists that'll keep them in block stun as much as tronne does for example or a threatening assist like psylocke aaa.

on the other hand you have mega man, ice man and silver samura but you dont' have the screen chopping commando or the excessively chipping doom.

Most anti airs can't really be comboed off of so they are more balanced, sure they get them off of you but it's usually someone like ken or ryu that has them which may warrant them on your team.

Poking might actually become a tad more viable now that you can't get hit by psylocke and comboed afterward. ect. but really unless people play it i'm not sure how it would be.

[Jin Cena]

I think I saw this before on zachd.com
rowtron even took part and played teams like Amingo/Sabretooth/Ken
Blackheart/Colossus/Guile
It looked allright, but for the most part players were just messing around. Definitely get vids, it's nice to see low tiers every now and then :tup:

[The Demon]

I think this is a fantastic Idea. In a traditional game with around 20 chars, banning the top 3 or four would take away the point of the game, but this game has 56 chars. I mean like Higher-Jin said, it would be a totally different game and if done right it could breathe new life into Marvel for a great many people who really want to still play Marvel but find that it is dying. It could be a different league, like baseballs national league or american league. Im definately for this.

[DarkPhoenix]

I'm kinda torn on this idea. Sure, eliminating God Tier would bring about amazing change in marvel, specially since it would hilight certain aspects of the top/mid/low tiers that would commonly go unnoticed. I would definitely not mind seeing Rogue as popularized as Storm, seeing how she has tri-jumping (ok, dive kick, whatever), air dashing, and many high-priority moves few people (*cough* VegetaX, Jumpee, Earl <RIP>*cough*) exploit.

However, I think certain noteworthy advantages will emerge from those who lack air-dashing and tri-jumping, which will end up countering those guys. It's gonna be an interesting endeavor, these tourneys!

[Eric J]

Preciate all the responses people, keep 'em comin'! Well, so far it seems like a good idea, if yall can, let other peepz know about it and tell them to post their votez. Hopefully I can get this thing rollin'!

[One Hit Combo]

People are all like:

"LoL, then this team will win."


.. Notice it contains many different people.


That's a testament to how successful this could be.

[Eric J]

People are all like:

"LoL, then this team will win."


.. Notice it contains many different people.


That's a testament to how successful this could be.

I agree, seems like it will be, so be it! Time for some action then... :tup:

[scum gale 88]

damn, I wish I could go. Ive crushed my friends with my jin/guile/spiderman team Id love to try it better competition. I think its a good idea, the big 4 are kind of boring since thats ALL I ever see. Id get my ass handed to me by strider/doom either way

[Eric J]

bizump.

[Dibble]

I will just keep playing low tier.
I do however play with tron and Juggs. But mostly mega,chun,Jill,ken....

[DAWOLF57]

you should ban all of the following:
Storm, Sentinel, Cable, Magneto, Cyclops, Doom, Black Heart, Psylocke, Srtyder, Iron Man and Captain Commando. All of these characters are over played and it seems to me like this is what you are trying to stay away from.
Now I think this is a good idea, imo the b4 have distracted us from achieving the true potential of the other characters.

[Kaistar]

Dude not to sound rude but Ryu is pretty low tier i'd take megaman any day of the week.

Lp...srk...super?

um that won't combo dude, if you mean srk xxx super you can just tiger knee it and even then it has alot of lags afterwards and on top of that even if you hit you might get crossed up if they roll.

I did mean SRK (jab) xx Super, but I think it's fair game that it goes through HSFs. Megaman has a few tools to lock down Sent.

Super hurricane....what use? it can be pushblocked and punished...you can TRY to land his semi infinite combo in the corner if you are facing away but that's impractical, outside of assists you wont' be landing it and it doesn't do THAT much damage either for the meter you waste. The only way to combo it iirc is opponent in the corner, c. lk, hadouken, xxx tatsmak but that isn't that great IMO either.

lk lk c.hk xx super connects reliably, can't be rolled because it hits before they hit the ground. Also, it out-prioritizes trijumps, so if they get a little too rushhappy, it punishes. I've connected it reliably against decent comp. It does do more damage than Shinkuu, oddly enough, so it does have more uses than you think.

I'm assuming you mean j. fp xxx hurricane kick to close distance because ground hurricane is suicide...even j. fp hurricane has to be done sparringly or you'll get hit by AAA/Mag's short/ Ahvb although it is good.

I did say air hurricanes, yes I did. Anyways, against a lot of fly-happy Sents it doesn't need much coverage because even if blocked/called, it closes distance faster than most AAs come out. Can also choose a feint-type option between lk and fk hurricane, IIRC, but don't quote me on that.

Megaman can keep rushdown out really well with rockball traps with sent y, he has his j. fp which he can use like a sonic boom and chase after it. He has a infinite he can combo into by himself (sort of) after a air throw that's close to the ground, beat plane chip, good stamina, instant overhead roundhouse, three 1 frame ground normals (!!!) and a wall jump + some good assists (mainly projectile assist).

Megaman is pretty up there right around rogue level (under the second tier) he can keep away pretty well, is short and has damaging comboes on top of that (although he can't combo into his supers =/) j.fp does 20 damage too so even normal air comboes do nice chunks of damage.

Even so the main point was it's easier to close gaps between characters weaker than the top 4 so all this talk about it being exactly the same with a new top tier is baloney.

Agreed with you all there, I'm just trying to prove a point that Ryu is better rushdown and therefore slightly more flexible as a character than MM. I mean, I'm not gonna post all of Ryu's options because it's a bit ridiculous to play theory fighter all the damn time, but I think to put Ryu at the lowest of the low is silly.

[Cool-Breeze]

My bad it took so long to respond here EJ anyways im always playing marval even in my sleep (and I mean that literaly).

Has anyone even tried to play (Besides the top 4) any team against there friends like Strider/Doom cause that is the main team people are bringing up and I do respect there threat to be the next top tier team if the original 4 were trumped out.

Im an exhibitionist maybe it will take someone like myself or EJ who is a great Strider/Doom player to find a team or other characters to maybe not surpass this team but at least put up consistent wins against them.

[Juggrknott]

S/D is tough but beatable. I can get them with Jugg/Ken/Hulk sometimes.

[Ranma0005]

Ryu, or any shoto for that matter, is never considered low tier because of how well they can damage people in a short amount of time. Mobility wise he's a little better than MM in that respect. He has lots of tools in close(ie overhead, various pressure, etc), but he is very limited full screen. If he still had lvl 1 shin-shoryuken he would be alot higher though. Out of the shotos Ken is highest, then Akuma, then Ryu IMO.

As for MM, he actually can sorta rush. Even without assist. You pretty much follow your own projectiles in, or use leaf shield if you want. I really don't recommend fighting with leaf shield, its horrid in MvC2, man it was so much better in MvC1. Slide XX tornado hold can setup some nice mind games if they don't react well. Instant overhead short or RH XX assist, blah blah blah. Or low short x2 XX assist, blah blah blah. Or even whiff jump short, assist in the back, blah blah blah. I have lots of tricks I like to use in close with MM, he's actually pretty good in close, normal jump in stronger chains where you can delay the RH almost to the ground, block chains ending with a delayed DP setting up throw setups, etc. MM is usually used as a one dimensional character which I hate to watch, he's actually a lot more well rounded than people realize. Though he's still not as good at MvC1 Megaman was.

My opinon on the tournament, Spiral, Strider, Doom, BH, IM become better because you eliminated the main reasons they were no longer considered top top tier. Most teams will prob consist of <insert random character>/Doom/Commando, or <random>/<random>/Tron. It sounds like a great idea, and I would love to join it if I could make it out there. Sadly I think work will own me though. I would probably end up falling into the <random>/<random>/Tron catagory though, lol! Good luck though! :tup:

[jollamolla]

How about "Capcom characters only tournament"?

[Higher-Jin]

I did mean SRK (jab) xx Super, but I think it's fair game that it goes through HSFs. Megaman has a few tools to lock down Sent.


Fair enough


lk lk c.hk xx super connects reliably, can't be rolled because it hits before they hit the ground. Also, it out-prioritizes trijumps, so if they get a little too rushhappy, it punishes. I've connected it reliably against decent comp. It does do more damage than Shinkuu, oddly enough, so it does have more uses than you think.

Sweeps can ALWAYS be rolled out of. Try it against the computer on safe falls, it's part of the reason why people don't do sweep + tronne Y.


Agreed with you all there, I'm just trying to prove a point that Ryu is better rushdown and therefore slightly more flexible as a character than MM. I mean, I'm not gonna post all of Ryu's options because it's a bit ridiculous to play theory fighter all the damn time, but I think to put Ryu at the lowest of the low is silly.

Actually it's not all that silly although he has decent strenghts. Overall I'd put him lower than most and he has no real mix up game at all so I don't know why you say he has better rushdown than megaman. Also his dash is pretty slow and hurricane kicks are not always that great priority. J. hp xxx hurricane must be used sparringly. All of these things I said tell me that ryu isn't rush down oriented at all. While despite his slow/short jump arc, Megaman at least has fast normals (1 frame attacks) and a fast recovering projectile to follow up against (j. fp, land, wave dash) for some type of covered rush down. Not to mention his air throws are more of a threat and nearer to the ground a air throw landed should be able to lead into his jumping infinite.

Ryu is still good though but I say he has more zoning that rushdown potential. He also has a air super which means he can get decent damage off a air to air confrontation (can also try to use his air fireball xxx shinkuu hadouken chain from further away than most others can reach with their normals).

I could name 10 characters not in the top or 2nd tier off the top of my head that are better than ryu. He has some redeeming values and is very decent character but he certainly isn't one of the better low tier characters IMO.

[jollamolla]

If I would have to choose 3 charaters out of Capcom's section,
it would be among these ;
Ken, Charlie, Cammy, Tron, Akuma, Hiryu.

1.Ken : J.HP, J.HK, Dash down, C.LK, Launch, SJ.LP, SJ.LK,
SJ.Hurricane + Shoryuken(although it doesn't connect)

The above does about 83 - 90 damage + 10 ~ 12 for the shoryuken
part, but the shoryuken doesn't really connect and I suppose
it could be blockable.


2.Akuma : J.HP or J.HK, J.Hurricane, Dash down,
Launch(any hit between the dash and the launch would
decrease the damage), SJ.LP, SJ.LK, SJ.Hurricane,
HC Fireballs.

This combo does about 108 ~ 115. It seems like a pretty good
deal for a 1 level HC.

3.Charlie : I think his air blaze? kick is great. It's quick
and can be done continuously one hit after another.
Also his combobility and launch are fine enough.

For the other 3, I don't really have much to add.

[Higher-Jin]

A pretty cool combo with low tiers is this one with Rogue/Akuma:

Rogue combo into good night sugar super, then dhc into akuma's shinkuu hadouken super (you may need to input the command backwards)

They'll fly up into the air, when they are coming back down you launch, ^ (neutral sj.) then you do this

hold up then go to foward all the way to back + HK

what should happen is you do a neutral jump, tilt your character foward and input the hurricane kick command.

It should get 3-4 hits and you might be able to tack on the fireball super.

It should do around 120-130 damage (without tacking on the super air fireball super at the end). Not bad for 2 levels eh?

If I would have to choose 3 charaters out of Capcom's section,
it would be among these ;
Ken, Charlie, Cammy, Tron, Akuma, Hiryu.

1.Ken : J.HP, J.HK, Dash down, C.LK, Launch, SJ.LP, SJ.LK,
SJ.Hurricane + Shoryuken(although it doesn't connect)

The above does about 83 - 90 damage + 10 ~ 12 for the shoryuken
part, but the shoryuken doesn't really connect and I suppose
it could be blockable.


2.Akuma : J.HP or J.HK, J.Hurricane, Dash down,
Launch(any hit between the dash and the launch would
decrease the damage), SJ.LP, SJ.LK, SJ.Hurricane,
HC Fireballs.

This combo does about 108 ~ 115. It seems like a pretty good
deal for a 1 level HC.


Usually it's better to do only one light attack or none at all in a hurricane kick combo. You've said it yourself the more hits, the more damage scaling and thus less damage.

Ken's Up+HK has a ridiculous ammount of a hit stun and it's easier to dash into a c. lk, c. hp with that. Even so it'll be rare to land a jump in, although this one happens to have a cross up hit box.

For akuma you may want to use his bnb combo (safe on hit or block and does decent chip and good damage)

c. lk, c. mk, standing hp, hp hadouken xxx (cancel it fast) shinkuu hadouken (mash)

Should do around: 76 damage or so

I'm not sure about ahvb safe but it should be safe for the most part and does good chip too. Sure you can launch into a hurricane kick combo but this has alot more reach and you don't have to rely on that puny ranged launcher. Also if you need chip (even though akuma's is the best version out of the shotos, oddly it's also tied with dan's).

The launcher itself should be able to beat out a few attacks though with a df+hp command it's only 3 frames and reminds me a tad of the xvsf version of shoto launchers.

Sorry if I'm imposing, just some tips.

edit: I'm also not saying you should stop trying to land the hurricane combo but the bnb combo is nice for chip and if it happens to hit that's good too.

[jollamolla]

Usually it's better to do only one light attack or none at all in a hurricane kick combo. You've said it yourself the more hits, the more damage scaling and thus less damage.
by Higher-Jin
-------------
True. I agree mostly.

However, after the launch, I could never connect it to the hurricane right away.
It ended up giving the opponent enough time to escape.
Yeah, the less hits, the more damages.
But some of the light hits were neccessary in order to connect
them together. These are just from my exp., so I can't never
be sure.
Actually I made a vid on this hurricane combo, but my online
storage is dead. I sent a message to Preppy for a little
bit a usage of his bandwidth. I hope he responses :pleased:.

[jollamolla]

Ok I just found some web space.
Here's the Link.

Hurricane Combo width="500" height="450" (http://home.comcast.net/~barabora/AkumaandKen.wmv)

1.Ken : J.HP, J.HK, Dash down, C.LK, Launch, SJ.LP, SJ.LK,
SJ.Hurricane + Shoryuken(although it doesn't connect)

2.Akuma : J.HP or J.HK, J.Hurricane, Dash down,
Launch(any hit between the dash and the launch would
decrease the damage), SJ.LP, SJ.LK, SJ.Hurricane,
HC Fireballs.


??How do I resize the vid??

[Augmint]

you should ban all of the following:
Storm, Sentinel, Cable, Magneto, Cyclops, Doom, Black Heart, Psylocke, Srtyder, Iron Man and Captain Commando. All of these characters are over played and it seems to me like this is what you are trying to stay away from.
Now I think this is a good idea, imo the b4 have distracted us from achieving the true potential of the other characters.

People who *have* achieved the true potential of their characters - eg Vegita X - Rogue, zaza - wolverines, spiral Duc, etc..
play against the big four - so banning the big 4 won't help your low tier character achieve their potential if you don't put time into playing hard match ups, and decide to play a seperate game.

[Eric J]

My bad it took so long to respond here EJ anyways im always playing marval even in my sleep (and I mean that literaly).

Has anyone even tried to play (Besides the top 4) any team against there friends like Strider/Doom cause that is the main team people are bringing up and I do respect there threat to be the next top tier team if the original 4 were trumped out.

Im an exhibitionist maybe it will take someone like myself or EJ who is a great Strider/Doom player to find a team or other characters to maybe not surpass this team but at least put up consistent wins against them.

LoL playing in sleep. I don't know man I'm thinking IM, Rogue, Psylocke/Doom can give them trouble. Also Strider, Spiral, Cyc maybe? Well Strider/Spiral projectile assist is pretty buff anyway. And Cyc fuck up S/D traps at times if S/D isn't careful. Does anyone know if PBGC works on Strider's chains?

[Cool-Breeze]

We need to hook up this week on the reall Man so we can study and train in this format.

Have you heard from Bootleg yet about the other stuff we were talking about?

Anyways I like thanos and Tron together haven't found a true third party, I often use CyC on anti-air or Spiral to help trap, I have some funny shit that comes from that bubble he has though, I wish they would have made a built in assist from lady chaos like captin commando has, LoL.

[KillerKai]

guard canceling against S/D with orbs is pretty much useless and will get you killed.

[Eric J]

guard canceling against S/D with orbs is pretty much useless and will get you killed.

Oh yes I know this very well, I'm a S/D player :tup:. By the way, good shit at ECC, I saw your vids. I love that Strider Sent crossup you did off the launcher. :clap:

What I was talking about is guard cancelling his regular chains, like you can do against Mags/Storm.

[KillerKai]

oh of course. you can pretty much guard cancel anyone's chains up to the point where they realize what you're about to do. thanks for the props =P

[Eric J]

We need to hook up this week on the reall Man so we can study and train in this format.

Have you heard from Bootleg yet about the other stuff we were talking about?

Anyways I like thanos and Tron together haven't found a true third party, I often use CyC on anti-air or Spiral to help trap, I have some funny shit that comes from that bubble he has though, I wish they would have made a built in assist from lady chaos like captin commando has, LoL.

Hit me tomorrow morning/afternoon if you free.. I called him about it but got answering machine.

[greeneggs&ham]

humm seems like stider/doom are going to replace magneto/psy :rolleyes:

[Eric J]

I want to try to get this NB4 thing started up this season now that EVO is over. Hopefully some of the supporters in this thread will be willing to throw some NB4 tournaments. I want to try to get the ball rolling on some tournaments. Hopefully, maybe get some supporters of this idea to try to start these tournies in your area, around the same time. I guess the date I would like is like a month or two from now just to get people time to organize and promote and such. I think that would be tight. 73.41% voted yes so of you who did who thinks they would be willing to get some tournaments rolling? Ironman is included since the majority thinks he is not tops. What does everybody think of Vegita-X’s idea of Magz with no anti-air? As far as entry fees for these tournies I think probably pretty low like $5 at first since more than likely this will be a side thing with people already playing MvC2 regularly to begin with. Well hit me up on this folks!

[Cool-Breeze]

I want to try to get this NB4 thing started up this season now that EVO is over. Hopefully some of the supporters in this thread will be willing to throw some NB4 tournaments. I want to try to get the ball rolling on some tournaments. Hopefully, maybe get some supporters of this idea to try to start these tournies in your area, around the same time. I guess the date I would like is like a month or two from now just to get people time to organize and promote and such. I think that would be tight. 73.41% voted yes so of you who did who thinks they would be willing to get some tournaments rolling? Ironman is included since the majority thinks he is not tops. What does everybody think of Vegita-X’s idea of Magz with no anti-air? As far as entry fees for these tournies I think probably pretty low like $5 at first since more than likely this will be a side thing with people already playing MvC2 regularly to begin with. Well hit me up on this folks!


Mags is fucking GOD Like top tier so Hell no I don't agree with it cause that fool can get his Infiet his Infi-Off from alot of bull on the real and he isn't limited by much when the anti-air is relenquished.

Iam still down for these tournies though, Hopefully Bootleg has the Ball rolling at dragonhord, but those guys can't charge us an arma and a leg to play there when they DON"t charge any of the versus or Yugioh heads who DON'T really attend there often anyways, we shouldn't be any exception hell I could ask larry to find out about comic companies location and do it there, cause we did madden before.

[UCRJesse]

mods do not sticky this.... this is a terrible idea... why?

because if you take out the big 4 then you have a new big 5... basically, anyone who doesn't pick bh/doom/strider/im/spiral is going to get scraped. most of the cast has no way of dealing with bh/doom/commando and thats waaay less fun than playing cable/sent, trust me. If you played marvel long enough you'd know that there is a second tier that is way above the middle of the cast. If you want to have side games or a system in the byoc room where you ban certain characters that is fine but you're still joking yourself in thinking that you're playing marvel. Don't let good characters be an excuse for being shitty at a game. Tournament results are going to be exactly the same no matter what characters you allow.

[DAWOLF57]

If you do this make sure you get some vids.

[TS]

If I can be too honest:

This is a cute idea for people who haven't been playing the game from the begining.

The real issue is that everyone is a scrub. The game will quickly devolve into stupid Cammy air combo bullshit. People aren't going to be playing Anakaris, or even Dhalsim. Megaman will get some love, but not much. People won't even play WOLVERINE, this is going to be some retarded Cammy/Strider/Jill nonsense, with random Kens thrown in because of his assist. And a bunch of copycat Rogue players who wil get the shit kicked out of them.

Are people really that fucking scared to lose, that they won't play, say, Hulk (or whatever character they'd like to), vs people with serious teams? If you have some "low tier" (thinking of them that way is step 1 to losing, btw), vs people with serious teams? How about you grow some nuts like VX, Zaza, Mike Z, Preppy, Julius Jackson, even Clock, Duc, Combofiend or Stilt....(the fact that people thing Strider/Doom and Spiral teams are "low tier" is a whooole 'nother rant)...I can't believe people are to pussy to stop playing MSP or Scrub or S/S/AAA for a day and actually try some shit out with some characters they like. You guys aren't winning tournaments anyway. Sorry.

I can't even believe people when they say they like the game...not enough to lose, or try new characters, apparently. I'm not bashing people for who they pick, I could care less if you want to play MSP...but if you want to play something else, why are you scared....?


That said, this tournamet would devolve into stupid bullshit REAL quickly. Cammy will be a big draw, because she keeps a decent assist, in addition to being scrub bait. If a non-top-tier league ever got going, it wold just be people who X-COPY whatever looks nice, just like now. There are not more players looking to find shit in the Marvel scene, IMO....there are FEWER. A couple of people might look for new shit, but... It's not the characters, it's the players.

What you do by banning any number of top assists is make the game even more scrubby. More characters are viable, but you're not playing them to their fullest potential. It's like playing Magneto without any sort of AAA or Sent-A, etc. You've eliminated the best possible team for Magneto, because you took away who works best for him. You do the same for a bunch of characters when you strip away Cyclops, Doom, Psylocke, Tron, etc. You also make some characters a bit less useful, generally speaking...you can be a great battery character, but building five meters for Spider-Man is not as big a deal as building them for Cable. You also eliminate a bunch of good DHCs, etc.

[Sabin]

i dont think its such a bad idea, if anything, it would bring new players into the scene imo, and hopefully they would get the tourney bug and start going to tournaments, etc. sure if makes the game "retarded" from our top tier POV, but who cares? thats not the point imo. potential players dont know these kind of fine nuances at first.

[FMJaguar]

I think it goes beyond just banning top 4 tho, a decent idea was that ranking system nec had with the ratios, then as more chars win you could just keep adjusting the ratios, so the game would keep changing (not nessecarily banning chars, but by moving chars from r2 to r1 and vice versa you would effectively be changing the team makeup).

TS, I think your exaggerating a bit, if there is one game that US players know it's MvC2, you can only be as creative as the engine allows. The fact that there is teamplay just makes the task of using all the chars near-impossible.

The thing i don't think some realize is that other popular games already do what is being proposing, through patches. The problem is that we can't patch the game, we can just ban, but it should work out ok. Someone needs to go do this to A3.

[Cool-Breeze]

Well I still think its a great Idea, Yes anyone with money on the line si always interested in winning first so with that in mind you play with you so called best team.
But in this feature teams would be so random, true most would go the cheap way and Attempt to play Strider doom all day but, what makes it even more fun is being able to demoilish that squad wit Guile Felicia Thanos :rofl: :rofl: (just useing a horrible example is all)
I just want to bring back the fun along side the competiveness.

[white shadow]

Megaman is pretty up there right around rogue level (under the second tier) he can keep away pretty well, is short and has damaging comboes on top of that (although he can't combo into his supers =/) j.fp does 20 damage too so even normal air comboes do nice chunks of damage.

He can combo into his super, from a J.LK into Hyper Megaman!:cool: (Only the J.LK though.)

[TS]

(I was bored.)

Presenting: The Roll System.

5 points
Storm, Cable, Sentinel, Magneto

4 points
Dr. Doom, Cyclops, Spiral, Blackheart, Tron...

3 points
Strider, Captian Commando, Megaman, Omega Red, Psylocke, Dhalsim, Cammy etc...

2 points
Basically everybody else

0 points
Roll

You get 10 points in making a team. Tron is where she is because of her assist.

My problem is, I don't wanna see Storm/Sent/Roll. It's not the best team, but if I see someone lose to that, It will make me sad. Maybe it should be nine points? Or maybe just bump Roll up to one point? I'd hate to see Spiral/Sent/Roll mopping people up, too.

The system would still allow for ugly stuff...Blackheart/Doom/AAA (maybe I should move Commando somewhere). An exception would be made for Strider/Doom, that's also a Roll team.

Thoughts?

[margalis]

It's not a bad idea at all.

I used to subscribe to the "if it's in the game, it's in the game" logic. That logic is folly though.

Sports evolve. The rules in football change every year. Any competitive game goes through rules tweaks. The problem is we don't program fighting games so we don't set the rules.

I am against stupid rules like "no camping" and "no roll cancels" because they are impossible to enforce and are very grey. But banning characters is a black and white issue.

Whether or not this particular idea has merit, who knows? Might as well try it. But players agreeing to change the rules is an idea long past due.

How much better would A2 have been had CCs been banned? (Hint: at least twice as good)

If Chess had some really really dumb rule that basically ruined the game the rule would get changed.

Note this isn't about making the game easier or harder. Banning a character or technique for EVERYONE doesn't do anything at all to game difficulty.

[MagnuScruB]

mods do not sticky this.... this is a terrible idea... why?

because if you take out the big 4 then you have a new big 5... basically, anyone who doesn't pick bh/doom/strider/im/spiral is going to get scraped. most of the cast has no way of dealing with bh/doom/commando and thats waaay less fun than playing cable/sent, trust me. If you played marvel long enough you'd know that there is a second tier that is way above the middle of the cast. If you want to have side games or a system in the byoc room where you ban certain characters that is fine but you're still joking yourself in thinking that you're playing marvel. Don't let good characters be an excuse for being shitty at a game. Tournament results are going to be exactly the same no matter what characters you allow.
this thread was dead, why did u bump it asking for it not to be stickied?



this will not fly. sorry to be realistic

[FMJaguar]

(I was bored.)

Presenting: The Roll System.

5 points
Storm, Cable, Sentinel, Magneto

4 points
Dr. Doom, Cyclops, Spiral, Blackheart, Tron...

3 points
Strider, Captian Commando, Megaman, Omega Red, Psylocke, Dhalsim, Cammy etc...

2 points
Basically everybody else

0 points
Roll

You get 10 points inmaking a team. Tron is where she is because of her assist.

My problem is, I don't wanna see Storm/Sent/Roll. It's not the best team, but if I see someone lose to that, It will make me sad. Maybe it should be nine points? Or maybe just bump Roll up to one point? I'd hate to see Spiral/Sent/Roll mopping people up, too.

The system would still allow for ugly stuff...Blackheart/Doom/AAA (maybe I should move Commando somewhere). An exception would be made for Strider/Doom, that's also a Roll team.

Thoughts?

1) Everyone should be at least 1 point
2) The point IMO should not be to encourage characters like roll/servbot, but to just make the middle 20 or so characters more useful.
3) You seem to be making an assumption that characters like OR, Cammy, sim, MM would be any good in the new game. IMO we should stick with what has actually proven to be good, Tron is not a 4 point character, half the 3 point characters are too high as well.
4) Sentinel, storm, and magneto cannot exist on any teams, probably cable as well.

[Robust]

(I was bored.)

Presenting: The Roll System.

5 points
Storm, Cable, Sentinel, Magneto

4 points
Dr. Doom, Cyclops, Spiral, Blackheart, Tron...

3 points
Strider, Captian Commando, Megaman, Omega Red, Psylocke, Dhalsim, Cammy etc...

2 points
Basically everybody else

0 points
Roll

You get 10 points in making a team. Tron is where she is because of her assist.

My problem is, I don't wanna see Storm/Sent/Roll. It's not the best team, but if I see someone lose to that, It will make me sad. Maybe it should be nine points? Or maybe just bump Roll up to one point? I'd hate to see Spiral/Sent/Roll mopping people up, too.

The system would still allow for ugly stuff...Blackheart/Doom/AAA (maybe I should move Commando somewhere). An exception would be made for Strider/Doom, that's also a Roll team.

Thoughts?
storm/sent/roll will be the best team...

[acesmith5]

3 Collosuses will become god-tier soon enough.

:tup:

[Circular]

Whenever you ban the current top tier you're going to end up with a new top tier. We've seen this with XBL KoF2k3; softbanning Duo Lon has just created a new top tier of Ash, K', Malin, and Daimon.

I think your concept could lead to some fun games, but don't worry too much about Iron Man. Sure, he's good, but banning him just means the next tier down will be good. Dropping the big four will make people play new characters. That's enough to achieve your goal of bringing fresh air into the scene.