View Full Version : Making a Figghting Game
As the title states, i have an idea and i'd like to make a fighting game. The game I have in my mind would actually be a 3-d fighter that plays like a 2-d with crazy Dragon Ball Z like moves, but with the resources i have now, it would most likely be a 2-d fighter. The Sprites would be Pre-renderd Cg
(Like Killer Instinct) i figure to use that ahh Mu-gen engine would be the easiest way to get the whole thing put together right now. Now I’ve never used Mugen and i don’t really plan to get to deep into it either, the reason is because i hate working with numbers and values, codes, equations n shit like that. I am no programmer so i would need a volunteer, to put in his or her free time to help me put this into motion. So with that be'n said, i know threes prolly been hundreds of threads where people have talked about making their own games and nothing has come from them, so i don’t expect people to jump out and start volunteer'n until i actually start posting character designs and sprites.
But once i get to that level, anyone who puts time in on building this game will get credit..
So the whole point of this thread was to get some ideas and feedback of the kind of fighting games people would like to see.
My 2 favorite fighting game engines right now are SF3 and GGX. (SF3) because the game play is tight and everything is extremely well balanced as far as parry’n , throwing, and basic moves. (GGX) because the game play is loose and fast so it enables you to be more creative and relentless with your strategies and combo’s.
So the game I’d like to make would be somewhere in between them both. Does any1 have any ideas that might have improved on any of these games?? Like a “guard meter” “combo breakers” “parry’s” Ya know, something new, or even something old. But what would make for the perfect 2-d fighter in your eyes??
saberwolf
07-05-2005, 11:31 AM
Making a Figghting Game :shake:
i believe pimpjuice can program, remember that remixed fighting game he made on mugen i think he showed it at jeff's house
hold dat
07-05-2005, 11:39 AM
it maybe stupid but i've always wanted a fighting game where like the tekken 5 data cards you have our own original created fighter but based in an already programmed environment with already set rules. like you create your guy/girl load him up at the arcade start the match and whoop some ass. everything is original from super moves to appearance and you can change it based on your own imagination. just imagine your own creation inserted into the world of 3rd strike...could be somethin good.
shit i don't know....lol
i believe pimpjuice can program, remember that remixed fighting game he made on mugen i think he showed it at jeff's house
Ya he can, but he didnt seem interested, or didnt take me seriously witchever it is. It should be hard to do. I just have to designs some characters and stages, set them up for animation and start rendering. I just cant put it into a work'n engine.
it maybe stupid but i've always wanted a fighting game where like the tekken 5 data cards you have our own original created fighter but based in an already programmed environment with already set rules. like you create your guy/girl load him up at the arcade start the match and whoop some ass. everything is original from super moves to appearance and you can change it based on your own imagination. just imagine your own creation inserted into the world of 3rd strike...could be somethin good.
shit i don't know....lol
Trust me its crossed my mind, and hopefully it becomes the new shit 4 fighting games, i think even "Street Fighter EX" and "Rival Schools" had dabbled in that a bit, but i think people would just make some cheap ass characters with really good moves. :xeye: But it is a good idea, if it can be balanced, but it would only work with 3-d games.. 2-d shit sprites really cant be manipulated that much.
Higher-Jin
07-05-2005, 11:47 AM
If you don't know shit, learn mugen first that's the least you'll ever have to learn to make a real fighting game. With inventive programming you might be able to do something that's alot like your idea but it WILL take ALOT of effort.
However doing it from scratch will take at least 10 times more effort.
nanitaberu
07-05-2005, 12:30 PM
Onyx, what makes you think you're qualified to make a fighting game? if you have dough$$ to burn or a good programming background, then maybe you can try. But nobody's going to volunteer making a fighting game of somebody else's liking.
Onyx, what makes you think you're qualified to make a fighting game? if you have dough$$ to burn or a good programming background, then maybe you can try. But nobody's going to volunteer making a fighting game of somebody else's liking.
Man, i thought i took care of this in the 1st post.. Jesus... What makes you think i'm not qualified to make a fighting game??? You dont know me do you?? Ok.. As i said, IM NOT ASKING 4 VOLUNTEERS NOW, and if i use Mugen( as i plan to) i dont need need to burn any money! I Didnt say i wanna make a fighting game fo the x-box PS2 or arcade did i?? All i need are sprites ( witch i can do my self being that i am a QUALIFIED 3-D artist) and an engine (Mugen) and someone to put the shit together (witch i do not need right now). Even music and sound effects i can do myself, all i need now is time to do the main part of any game, visuals. This thread is for people who are interested to post ideas and things they would like to see in figting games, and things they dont like in current games nothing more.
I assume you think the guys that made Melty Blood and Guilty Gear were billion dollar companies b4 they made them huh?? All they started with was thier will and ideas and as of right now, thats all i got, and its all im asking 4. IDEAS :xeye:
polarity
07-05-2005, 01:18 PM
If you're really serious about this, don't let anyone else get you down, just go for it. However I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this will never go anywhere.
If you're really serious about this, don't let anyone else get you down, just go for it. However I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this will never go anywhere.
NAhh people dont get me down, i usually strait'n em out and if not fuck em, do ur thing and i'll do mine :xeye: .. Im not sure if you were refering to this thread not going anywhere or the game, but just to ease the minds of those who may be PESIMISTIC to my desires, lets just say im not making a game.. Just tell me what ud like to c in games and what you dont like in games.. I know. U guys can do that right??? Talk about shit...? Thats whats Forums are 4...
Good shit Onyx. Dude Guard Breakers would be great! If they had Guard Breakers (Garou) in 3S that would totally make up for my lack of defense! :badboy: Besides that, no gay music like in 3S please, I can't stand the 3S OST, Garou's OST matches it's game so perfectly, something SNK has always been able to get right. And how about combo breakers? (KI) :devil: If not combo breakers, maybe a striker system (KOF'99) that'd'll stop the combo at the expense of a couple meters. :tup: And how about a parry meter? If you fill up the parry meter you can do some kind of desperation move (TMNT: TF) Man.. Stun bar, Parry bar, Guard bar, Meter, Life bar...
Oh and something like the idea that the amount of meter stocks you have determines how many hits the super does, or how difficult it is to parry :tup: If Ken's SA3 had like 5 stocks used in one execution then the hits should go high low high high overhead low low or something crazy -or maybe even random LOL
Let me know if you want any more crazy ideas :tup:
Higher-Jin
07-05-2005, 01:33 PM
Man, i thought i took care of this in the 1st post.. Jesus... What makes you think i'm not qualified to make a fighting game??? You dont know me do you?? Ok.. As i said, IM NOT ASKING 4 VOLUNTEERS NOW, and if i use Mugen( as i plan to) i dont need need to burn any money! I Didnt say i wanna make a fighting game fo the x-box PS2 or arcade did i?? All i need are sprites ( witch i can do my self being that i am a QUALIFIED 3-D artist) and an engine (Mugen) and someone to put the shit together (witch i do not need right now). Even music and sound effects i can do myself, all i need now is time to do the main part of any game, visuals. This thread is for people who are interested to post ideas and things they would like to see in figting games, and things they dont like in current games nothing more.
I assume you think the guys that made Melty Blood and Guilty Gear were billion dollar companies b4 they made them huh?? All they started with was thier will and ideas and as of right now, thats all i got, and its all im asking 4. IDEAS :xeye:
well i'm not sure about arc systems but iirc the melty blood people was a group effort from people who were all very dedicated and it's pretty rare for that to happen and to be as big a success as they've been.
Mugen is a 2d fighting game engine however you might still be able to use the sprites if you are really serious about this I suggest you ask around for a page that had a demo to a 3d fighting game made by a fan and he started selling it or something, then i'd suggest finding that guy's email and asking him what you need.
3d is usually easier to make however I doubt you can do it all by yourself
edit: also if you are looking for ideas for a balanced game and game play ideas you may want to look at ultima's ideas for somethign he called "street fighter perfect"
http://highervoltage.net/mb/showthread.php?t=6676
TheVagabond
07-05-2005, 01:37 PM
Good shit Onyx. Dude Guard Breakers would be great! If they had Guard Breakers (Garou) in 3S that would totally make up for my lack of defense! :badboy: Besides that, no gay music like in 3S please, I can't stand the 3S OST, Garou's OST matches it's game so perfectly, something SNK has always been able to get right. And how about combo breakers? (KI) :devil: If not combo breakers, maybe a striker system (KOF'99) that'd'll stop the combo at the expense of a couple meters. :tup: And how about a parry meter? If you fill up the parry meter you can do some kind of desperation move (TMNT: TF) Man.. Stun bar, Parry bar, Guard bar, Meter, Life bar...
Oh and something like the idea that the amount of meter stocks you have determines how many hits the super does, or how difficult it is to parry :tup: If Ken's SA3 had like 5 stocks used in one execution then the hits should go high low high high overhead low low or something crazy -or maybe even random LOL
Let me know if you want any more crazy ideas :tup:
You've thought alot about this in the past haven't you?
You've thought alot about this in the past haven't you?Actually I come up with shit on the fly. Probably why I'm such a people person T.T; But to be quite honest, I've been thinking of ideas for RPGs not fighter games =P 'Cause the RPG games are in more need of something new and fresh -moreso than fighters.
But if you want more ideas, how about these?
-Each character having 3 taunts. One to show respect, one for "Hurry the fuck up you damn turtle," and the last one being "EAT THAT SHIT!!" :badboy:
-If guard is broken in a corner, the breaker will have an option to crush the broken through the wall and onto a new stage(1) or just combo the shit out of him.
*1 If broken into a new stage, the stage should be setup so there are aspects to stop turtling. i.e. less time, shorter stage, fading health -whatever =P
-I would love for the game to be fast paced, a bit faster than 3S, but not as fast as MVC2 where everything is just pure chaos.
-Running as well as dashing in game.
Edit: I definately like the idea of only having one type of super. This basically lets you play 3 different characters from one. :tup: Definately need to keep it 1 SA per. :tup:
And I really want to push the difficulty on parrying, people saying it's too easy -well shit man, they came up with it 7-8 years ago. =P It's about time it gets a bit harder. Like parry to the beat of the stage song. Muhuhahahaha~ But realisticly, probably parry like X---XX-XXX-X---X not like X---X---X---X---X :tup:
Rico!
07-05-2005, 02:24 PM
And I really want to push the difficulty on parrying, people saying it's too easy -well shit man, they came up with it 7-8 years ago. =P It's about time it gets a bit harder. Like parry to the beat of the stage song. Muhuhahahaha~ But realisticly, probably parry like X---XX-XXX-X---X not like X---X---X---X---X :tup:
like...CvS2 difficult?
like...CvS2 difficult?To tell you the truth, I never really got into CvS2 =P CvS was so bad that I never gave part 2 a chance =P But I did try the parrying out on there, but only single parries, never any sequences. I thought the timing was just different, is the timing on CvS2 not rhythmic?
Zinac
07-05-2005, 04:02 PM
I'm actually working on a fighting game engine, so if you're looking for alternatives to mugen, just ask.
nanitaberu
07-05-2005, 05:52 PM
Man, i thought i took care of this in the 1st post.. Jesus... What makes you think i'm not qualified to make a fighting game??? You dont know me do you?? Ok.. As i said, IM NOT ASKING 4 VOLUNTEERS NOW, and if i use Mugen( as i plan to) i dont need need to burn any money! I Didnt say i wanna make a fighting game fo the x-box PS2 or arcade did i?? All i need are sprites ( witch i can do my self being that i am a QUALIFIED 3-D artist) and an engine (Mugen) and someone to put the shit together (witch i do not need right now). Even music and sound effects i can do myself, all i need now is time to do the main part of any game, visuals. This thread is for people who are interested to post ideas and things they would like to see in figting games, and things they dont like in current games nothing more.
I assume you think the guys that made Melty Blood and Guilty Gear were billion dollar companies b4 they made them huh?? All they started with was thier will and ideas and as of right now, thats all i got, and its all im asking 4. IDEAS :xeye:
My 6th sense tells me you're not.
'sides, you spelled fighting wrong in the thread title, which is quite a bad sign. I'm not discouraging you from going for it, I'm just telling you there are hundreds of people who have ideas like you- so don't get too excited.
Melty Blood and Guilty Gear are both developed by a GROUP of very DEDICATED and TALENTED people, lead by a very KNOWLEDGABLE leader and also FUNDED. They did not start their developement by asking for ideas on a forum.
Don't :xeye: me -_-;;; If you can't take honest thoughts from people then don't go on SRK.
spotlanx
07-05-2005, 06:21 PM
All they started with was thier will and ideas and as of right now, thats all i got, and its all im asking 4. IDEAS :xeye:
I have a dream!!
you're an artist and you don't want to do any programming,
this will go a long way. :confused:
go look on sourceforge or sites like that.
Higher-Jin
07-05-2005, 09:04 PM
Actually I come up with shit on the fly. Probably why I'm such a people person T.T; But to be quite honest, I've been thinking of ideas for RPGs not fighter games =P 'Cause the RPG games are in more need of something new and fresh -moreso than fighters.
But if you want more ideas, how about these?
-Each character having 3 taunts. One to show respect, one for "Hurry the fuck up you damn turtle," and the last one being "EAT THAT SHIT!!" :badboy:
-If guard is broken in a corner, the breaker will have an option to crush the broken through the wall and onto a new stage(1) or just combo the shit out of him.
*1 If broken into a new stage, the stage should be setup so there are aspects to stop turtling. i.e. less time, shorter stage, fading health -whatever =P
-I would love for the game to be fast paced, a bit faster than 3S, but not as fast as MVC2 where everything is just pure chaos.
-Running as well as dashing in game.
Edit: I definately like the idea of only having one type of super. This basically lets you play 3 different characters from one. :tup: Definately need to keep it 1 SA per. :tup:
And I really want to push the difficulty on parrying, people saying it's too easy -well shit man, they came up with it 7-8 years ago. =P It's about time it gets a bit harder. Like parry to the beat of the stage song. Muhuhahahaha~ But realisticly, probably parry like X---XX-XXX-X---X not like X---X---X---X---X :tup:
Joke account?
no one wants a balanced fighting game.
Derek
ShinjiGohan
07-06-2005, 12:45 AM
Trust me its crossed my mind, and hopefully it becomes the new shit 4 fighting games, i think even "Street Fighter EX" and "Rival Schools" had dabbled in that a bit, but i think people would just make some cheap ass characters with really good moves. :xeye: But it is a good idea, if it can be balanced, but it would only work with 3-d games.. 2-d shit sprites really cant be manipulated that much.
Wrestling games tend to have that feature though I haven't really seen any so judge if they were hastely made with only thinking of moves or what.
Also that Street Fighter EX game was EX3. Where you could purchase moves for Ace to use but he could only be equiped with so many moves at any one time (3 specials, 2 lv 1 supers and 1 lv 3 super), and also "power up" the moves by using those moves in matches making him more powerful (in a slight degree). You also couldn't do anything to his look or anything like that.
Actually I come up with shit on the fly. Probably why I'm such a people person T.T; But to be quite honest, I've been thinking of ideas for RPGs not fighter games =P 'Cause the RPG games are in more need of something new and fresh -moreso than fighters.
But if you want more ideas, how about these?
-Each character having 3 taunts. One to show respect, one for "Hurry the fuck up you damn turtle," and the last one being "EAT THAT SHIT!!" :badboy:
-If guard is broken in a corner, the breaker will have an option to crush the broken through the wall and onto a new stage(1) or just combo the shit out of him.
*1 If broken into a new stage, the stage should be setup so there are aspects to stop turtling. i.e. less time, shorter stage, fading health -whatever =P
-I would love for the game to be fast paced, a bit faster than 3S, but not as fast as MVC2 where everything is just pure chaos.
-Running as well as dashing in game.
Edit: I definately like the idea of only having one type of super. This basically lets you play 3 different characters from one. :tup: Definately need to keep it 1 SA per. :tup:
And I really want to push the difficulty on parrying, people saying it's too easy -well shit man, they came up with it 7-8 years ago. =P It's about time it gets a bit harder. Like parry to the beat of the stage song. Muhuhahahaha~ But realisticly, probably parry like X---XX-XXX-X---X not like X---X---X---X---X :tup:
:clap: good shit man, thanks 4 the feed back, if you're looking for agame thats not as fast as marvel then you should play GGXX, i ts garbage on live though.
:wtf: My 6th sense tells me you're not.
'sides, you spelled fighting wrong in the thread title, which is quite a bad sign. I'm not discouraging you from going for it, I'm just telling you there are hundreds of people who have ideas like you- so don't get too excited.
Melty Blood and Guilty Gear are both developed by a GROUP of very DEDICATED and TALENTED people, lead by a very KNOWLEDGABLE leader and also FUNDED. They did not start their developement by asking for ideas on a forum.
Don't :xeye: me -_-;;; If you can't take honest thoughts from people then don't go on SRK.
Again, for the pesimist, fuck em :xeye: :xeye: :xeye: HOw the hell are you gonna come in here and tell me what to do???? YOu came in here to tell me i aint shit, my kids aint gonna be shit and that i'll never amount to shit. SO how could you scold me 4 defending myself, im my furom? :wtf: GTFOH, Dont people relize when they contradict themselves?? :xeye:
timekillr
07-06-2005, 04:29 AM
no one wants a balanced fighting game.
Derek
As much as I respect your work on God of War, damn, that's one hell of a statement coming from a fellow designer.
I strive to balance everything, and you come in, just shout "no one wants a balanced fighting game" and don't back it up? Is it about that whole Karateka argument, that the only way to make a balanced fighting game is to have 2 characters be exactly equal?
I would say perfect balance is impossible, but you can come damn close. :)
thedude.com
07-06-2005, 04:40 AM
no one wants a balanced fighting game.
Derek
70% agrees with that ...
later it reduce to 30% agree about the concept...
tell you , Rumble Fish is 1 innovative fighting game i've ever seen.
special defence technique meter and the usual super meter :D
imagine 3rd strike + rumble fish system ( not graphic )
As much as I respect your work on God of War, damn, that's one hell of a statement coming from a fellow designer.
I strive to balance everything, and you come in, just shout "no one wants a balanced fighting game" and don't back it up? Is it about that whole Karateka argument, that the only way to make a balanced fighting game is to have 2 characters be exactly equal?
I would say perfect balance is impossible, but you can come damn close. :)
I agree SF3 is damn close in my book and i give most of that credit to the parry'n system. Eish, you have some really interesting idea's thanks man :tup: If you're head gets fill'd with more lemme know.
thedude.com, wtf is rumble fish?? i never heard of it.. Is it 4 a concole or pc???
(The guy that made the i have a dream statement) Ya, i have i couple more dreams too, anything that man ever created started out as some1's dream.
TimeKillr, i play'ed you recently on SF3, what line of work r u in?? Same goes for Omni, whats ur Title? Im curious.
I'm actually working on a fighting game engine, so if you're looking for alternatives to mugen, just ask.
:clap: Ok what are some alternatives?? Mugen does seem like a pre-broken engine but it is free and i assume easy to use, but what else is there?
Zinac
07-06-2005, 06:37 AM
Well there are actually 2 mugen clones that are actively being developed.
One is OpenMugen http://openmugen.sourceforge.net/
The other is Rhakys http://rhakys.free.fr/
Neither of them are as complete as Mugen yet though.
I don't have a website for my engine other than of a sourceforge project page. I don't have time outside of writting code to put up one.
Well there are actually 2 mugen clones that are actively being developed.
One is OpenMugen http://openmugen.sourceforge.net/
The other is Rhakys http://rhakys.free.fr/
Neither of them are as complete as Mugen yet though.
I don't have a website for my engine other than of a sourceforge project page. I don't have time outside of writting code to put up one.
Ahh kool, this open mugen supports OGG files, FMV :badboy: Yes, i D/L Cal3d when i was think'n aboutthe 3d version, but u gotta use Lynx n shit.. Thats take s aserious programer, i think at least w/ this openmugen i might be able to stubble though and figure things out. I just hate looking @ code. But thanks these help :tup:
timekillr
07-06-2005, 09:12 AM
TimeKillr, i play'ed you recently on SF3, what line of work r u in?? Same goes for Omni, whats ur Title? Im curious.
I am a game designer at JAMDAT Mobile.
omni, iirc, did the combat design on God of War.
As much as I respect your work on God of War, damn, that's one hell of a statement coming from a fellow designer.
I strive to balance everything, and you come in, just shout "no one wants a balanced fighting game" and don't back it up? Is it about that whole Karateka argument, that the only way to make a balanced fighting game is to have 2 characters be exactly equal?
I would say perfect balance is impossible, but you can come damn close. :)
I unfortunately don't have much time as I'm at work but I will expound a little further.
First what I'm discussing is relegated ONLY to fighting games, i'm not here to argue if people want a blanced version of chess or any other type of game, FPS, MMO's, etc.
We should first take a look at if there is a balanced fighting game and if there is, do people enjoy playing it? I'm hard pressed to find an answer.
But when I say no one wants a balanced fighting game what I'm talking about is that there are 2 kinds of people in life - people who want something 'cheap' to perfect and people who want to prove that they are better than everyone else and can get around that cheap thing. People need something to do and something to get around.
If you look at all popular fighting games, NONE of them have been balanced:
World Warrior, CE, HF, ST
Tekken 3, Tekken Tag, Tekken 5
XSF, MvC1, MvC2
etc
Look at when games attempted to be balanced and how horrible they have been received - Marvel Vs. SF, various Alpha 2 upgrades, Alpha 3 upgrades, etc.
One of the biggest problems (especially from a developer stand point) is that unless you are just making Virtua Figther 4 Final Tuned version 9 or whatever they are on, you will NEVER be able to predict the future. You are going to overlook something and when you attempt to balance the game, that one thing you overlooked (CvS1 Nakoruru) is going to stick out like a sore thumb and break the game beyond belief.
Plus ultimately fighting games need to be fun more than anything else and a balanced game IMO does not add (or detract truth being told) to the fun equation of a game. Fighting games have an evolution (at least good ones) where stuff is found the first day and won't work a month later and if everything is balanced what exploration is there for the audience to have/find? Ideally the game ends up being balanced after years of play but I think it is impossible to plan for that type of longevity.
sorry for the short incoherent response, just trying to reply while doing 900 other things.
EDIT: I didn't see the question til now, but I work for Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA) and the latest game I worked on was God Of War. I'm a designer, and on GoW I handled most of the combat along with a really good friend of mine named Eric Williams (gouken8 of fighters.net fame).
Derek Daniels
I am a game designer at JAMDAT Mobile.
omni, iirc, did the combat design on God of War.
:wow: :wow: , Thats awsome man, that qualifies you for the "Sick Bastard Award" ( this is a good thing) I didnt really get a chance to play the game, but from what i've seen and the little i played, the differnt things you can do to the people are very kool and unique. Especialy the boss battles :tup: What other games have you worked on?/ ( if you care to share)
I work 4 a small company called "3001Ad", we make virtual reality games, if u went to E3 this year you might have the "TRIMERSION" booth. Its a Head mounted display with head tracking for any 1st person shooters. works for PC,X-box and PS2
I unfortunately don't have much time as I'm at work but I will expound a little further.
First what I'm discussing is relegated ONLY to fighting games, i'm not here to argue if people want a blanced version of chess or any other type of game, FPS, MMO's, etc.
We should first take a look at if there is a balanced fighting game and if there is, do people enjoy playing it? I'm hard pressed to find an answer.
But when I say no one wants a balanced fighting game what I'm talking about is that there are 2 kinds of people in life - people who want something 'cheap' to perfect and people who want to prove that they are better than everyone else and can get around that cheap thing. People need something to do and something to get around.
If you look at all popular fighting games, NONE of them have been balanced:
World Warrior, CE, HF, ST
Tekken 3, Tekken Tag, Tekken 5
XSF, MvC1, MvC2
etc
Look at when games attempted to be balanced and how horrible they have been received - Marvel Vs. SF, various Alpha 2 upgrades, Alpha 3 upgrades, etc.
One of the biggest problems (especially from a developer stand point) is that unless you are just making Virtua Figther 4 Final Tuned version 9 or whatever they are on, you will NEVER be able to predict the future. You are going to overlook something and when you attempt to balance the game, that one thing you overlooked (CvS1 Nakoruru) is going to stick out like a sore thumb and break the game beyond belief.
Plus ultimately fighting games need to be fun more than anything else and a balanced game IMO does not add (or detract truth being told) to the fun equation of a game. Fighting games have an evolution (at least good ones) where stuff is found the first day and won't work a month later and if everything is balanced what exploration is there for the audience to have/find? Ideally the game ends up being balanced after years of play but I think it is impossible to plan for that type of longevity.
sorry for the short incoherent response, just trying to reply while doing 900 other things.
EDIT: I didn't see the question til now, but I work for Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA) and the latest game I worked on was God Of War. I'm a designer, and on GoW I handled most of the combat along with a really good friend of mine named Eric Williams (gouken8 of fighters.net fame).
Derek Daniels
:wow: :wow: Well, both you and Timekillr get the "Sick Bastard Award"
And you make an excellent point on attempting to build a balanced fighting game, what you said makes perfect sense to me. My main concern is just try'n to get the right kinda gamplay, to where it wouldn’t evolve to some broken ass tactics in the future, as well as not making any of the characters too cheap. Marvel vs Capcom2 is just.. Completly destroyed, for the obvious reasons like infinites, un bloockables and a Character select screen of like 52 people but only 4 or 5 of em will get you anywhere againts someone who knows the game well. It was allot of fun to play before all of these became unveiled. I dont like CVS2 because of the constant rolling people can do to avoid attacks, i dont c y the dev's didn’t realize that giving people an option to roll away from any move at anytime would get out of hand. If there was some type of limit to rolling (either a meter or a set amount times u can use it) i think it would have been a better balanced game, and would've given it more serious type of play. Killer Instinct ( my favorite shit) was just too turn based, you go, I go, u go, it was like play’n a RPG sometimes, then people got scared of getting their moves blocked because of the horrendous recoil. And the combo breakers were not easy to pull of, but once you knew everyones combos you could pul em off after like 2 hits. That should have been limited as well.
I view SF3 as the most balanced game because of the parry’s mostly, it gives people the ability not to ever loose life (if you are that good) and it works in the air, standing or on the ground. :tup: People used to( and still do) call throwing cheap, so Capcom made the throws a manual action for every1 Qp +Qk giving people the ability to counter throws as well :tup: And every character is still useable, sure some are a little better than others (depending how you look at it) but everyone can be formidable and usefull, to me that was a huge accomplishment. :tup:
Mike_Z
07-06-2005, 04:20 PM
It you're incredibly serious about this, I suggest not using Mugen. PM me if you're open to...other ideas.
Mike Z
And you make an excellent point on attempting to build a balanced fighting game, what you said makes perfect sense to me. My main concern is just try'n to get the right kinda gamplay, to where it wouldn’t evolve to some broken ass tactics in the future, as well as not making any of the characters too cheap. Marvel vs Capcom2 is just.. Completly destroyed, for the obvious reasons like infinites, un bloockables and a Character select screen of like 52 people but only 4 or 5 of em will get you anywhere againts someone who knows the game well. It was allot of fun to play before all of these became unveiled.
MvC2 has lots of problems, but what you listed are none of them.
Infinites – there are none in MvC2. From a very clinical/technical point of view there are no attacks which can be repeatedly indefinitely. The main reason is the character dizzy (or ‘undizzy’ as some like to call it) which allows them to escape. You can repeat certain sections and end it with huge damage – such as Magneto/Iron Man but there is no true infinite like Xmen Vs. Street Fighter had.
Unblockables have been in tons of games – MSH, A2, A3, 3s, etc and while annoying they don’t break the game so to speak. The problem with unblockables in MvC2 is that they can lead to some serious damage aka Sentinel. Also the risk/reward for unblockables in MvC2 is very low/high.
Character select screen – this one is a little trickier. Because on the first day of MvC2 we all knew that Cable, Storm, Magneto, Sentinel were the best (okay…maybe day three when sentinel finally got released). One of the early problems of MvC2 was, ‘The Cable Barrier’. He dominated so much of MvC2 that you either learned how to deal with him or move on to another game. Since MvC2 is a Capcom game, people decided to stay and learn how to deal with him. But because of Cable people started doing things in marvel that had been in the marvel engines for years – guard breaks, air dashing, flying, etc. Cable forced everyone to learn new stuff and look for new characters that could beat him. So while at the end of this long marvel journey, we know Cable still owns everyone up but it sure was a fun ride as people constantly searched the cast looking for alternatives.
Which brings me to my point, yes – those 4 dominate marvel but there is also battle between each other that prevents one from just being better than the whole cast. So while there are 40+ dead spots on the character select screen, there is still a game to be played and that is most important thing. While there were plenty of people turned off that they couldn’t win with Amingo, plenty more were turned on to how to play MSP after seeing Soo.
I dont like CVS2 because of the constant rolling people can do to avoid attacks, i dont c y the dev's didn’t realize that giving people an option to roll away from any move at anytime would get out of hand. If there was some type of limit to rolling (either a meter or a set amount times u can use it) i think it would have been a better balanced game, and would've given it more serious type of play. Killer Instinct ( my favorite shit) was just too turn based, you go, I go, u go, it was like play’n a RPG sometimes, then people got scared of getting their moves blocked because of the horrendous recoil. And the combo breakers were not easy to pull of, but once you knew everyones combos you could pul em off after like 2 hits. That should have been limited as well.
There are a couple of problems here. One, rolling does suck. But I don’t think for the reasons you bring up. I think the biggest problem with rolling is that it is just too damn hard to punish. In the beta of CvS2 at E3, you could sweep rolls and it made the game feel way cleaner, sadly this was removed.
Killer Instinct’s biggest problem was the lack of throws. They threw in those bootleg overheads but anyone with a pulse could see them and just block. There was no penalty for just kicking it in down/back the whole match and just counter attack when need be. But yeah, combo breaking after 2 hits sucked.
I view SF3 as the most balanced game because of the parry’s mostly, it gives people the ability not to ever loose life (if you are that good) and it works in the air, standing or on the ground. People used to( and still do) call throwing cheap, so Capcom made the throws a manual action for every1 Qp +Qk giving people the ability to counter throws as well And every character is still useable, sure some are a little better than others (depending how you look at it) but everyone can be formidable and usefull, to me that was a huge accomplishment.
While 3s is not the most unbalanced fighting game ever, it’s not far from it. Yun/Chun Li/Ken just dominate that game too much. Yeah you may see some sexy Hugo’s red parry Yun’s every now and then, but Yun will win that match best out of 10 no matter what.
The problem with Parrying is that you can’t bait it and punish it. In A2 for example you could do low roundhouse and have them alpha counter and buffer the low roundhouse into dragon punch to beat the alpha counter. In A3, that whole game is based on who customs’ first so you can custom immediately afterwards and counter. In 3s even if I get the guy to parry, there is nothing guaranteeing I can do damage to him afterwards. Not only that it is the end all be all move – why should you get something that gets you out of every situation? Why should I not be rewarded for rushing you down and you are now in the corner?
Throwing was never cheap, ever. And when have you ever gone for a standing fierce and got a throw by accident and you were unhappy with that result?
Derek Daniels
nanitaberu
07-06-2005, 04:56 PM
There are fighting games that people just pick up and find it fun to play. Games like Mortal Kombat or Smash Bros. Then there are games where people get obsessed with, while others think it's a game for nerdatrons only. Games like 3S or CVS2.
Not every fighting (or not fighting) game needs to be balanced to the extreme. Have it moderately balanced, and let a couple characters stand out from the rest of the roster.
And to argue for arguing's sakes, Yun/Chun/Ken dominates the game too much mmmmaybe but in 3S, the skill level of the player determines the outcome a lot more than the tiers of the chosen characters. Ken is a different story, but Chun and Yun can be defeated by many other characters on the roster with vs. Chun/Yun specific strategies.
There's nothing broken with Ken, he's just a well-round character with little flaws- so you can't defeat him with anything but normal 3S strategies.
I think rolling in CVS2 is fine (not RCing, rolling). Sweep>Roll IMHO would render rolling completely useless. Most can react to an incoming roll and sweep. You can still throw people out of rolls, that makes sense.
And throwing was never cheap, agreed.
thedude.com
07-07-2005, 05:53 AM
the discussion in here is getting better . any views towards rumble fish 2 ?? is just that the counter system that require 1 bar of super meter in this game ...
and walking sucks big time in the game ..
timekillr
07-07-2005, 06:34 AM
I unfortunately don't have much time as I'm at work but I will expound a little further.
First what I'm discussing is relegated ONLY to fighting games, i'm not here to argue if people want a blanced version of chess or any other type of game, FPS, MMO's, etc.
Phew, alright :) That restores my faith in the industry :)
We should first take a look at if there is a balanced fighting game and if there is, do people enjoy playing it? I'm hard pressed to find an answer.
I think it all depends on what your key audience is. If you're going for a hardcore crowd (VF4FT) then people do enjoy playing a balanced game. Even then, arguably, the game is balanced not by having balanced characters but rather by balancing through controls, which is incredibly interesting. For example, Akira has always been an extremely powerful character, but he's also always been very hard to master and use, which in turn makes him balanced himself. Sure, he's always had 75%+ damage combos, but those combos require such a strict timing that only the most hardcore of the hardcore could use them.
This is why MvC2 has such problems: most of the killer techniques (AHVBx3, for example) don't require that much skill to do insane amounts of damage. 3s is not much more balanced in that aspect: it's not that hard for a Ken player to do Daigo-like feats but it's much harder for a Twelve player.
I find GGXX#r to be very close to a well-balanced game. Sure, there are definite tiers, but those tiers are much more bunched up together. Slayer might dominate most of the game, but he's deathly afraid of Potemkin, for example. Add to that the fact that Eddie is much harder to use than characters like Sol, and it's more balanced.
If you look at all popular fighting games, NONE of them have been balanced:
World Warrior, CE, HF, ST
Tekken 3, Tekken Tag, Tekken 5
XSF, MvC1, MvC2
etc
Look at when games attempted to be balanced and how horrible they have been received - Marvel Vs. SF, various Alpha 2 upgrades, Alpha 3 upgrades, etc.
Well to be honest, there has been no truly balanced game ever, aside maybe from Chess or specific FPSs. Arguably Go isn't balanced either since you have the whole komi rule to go over the fact that the black player has a huge advantage in playing first.
One of the biggest problems (especially from a developer stand point) is that unless you are just making Virtua Figther 4 Final Tuned version 9 or whatever they are on, you will NEVER be able to predict the future. You are going to overlook something and when you attempt to balance the game, that one thing you overlooked (CvS1 Nakoruru) is going to stick out like a sore thumb and break the game beyond belief.
Plus ultimately fighting games need to be fun more than anything else and a balanced game IMO does not add (or detract truth being told) to the fun equation of a game. Fighting games have an evolution (at least good ones) where stuff is found the first day and won't work a month later and if everything is balanced what exploration is there for the audience to have/find? Ideally the game ends up being balanced after years of play but I think it is impossible to plan for that type of longevity.
It's true that fighting games need to be more fun than anything to be successful, but I think balance means a lot in the whole equation. If you look at a game like Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War, the balance problems completely killed the online game. Some races are just non-competitive, and most players have stopped playing because of some blatant problems with the game. It's the same reason people don't play LB2 seriously.
I think we should strive for balance, but not expect it. We need to make things fun while keeping a certain balance so that the game doesn't become "unfun" because of it's balance problems.
sorry for the short incoherent response, just trying to reply while doing 900 other things.
I know what that's like :)
I'll just quote your other post too..
There are a couple of problems here. One, rolling does suck. But I don’t think for the reasons you bring up. I think the biggest problem with rolling is that it is just too damn hard to punish. In the beta of CvS2 at E3, you could sweep rolls and it made the game feel way cleaner, sadly this was removed.
I hardly feel that rolling is just too hard to punish... Sweeping rolls would greatly kill their effectiveness.
Killer Instinct’s biggest problem was the lack of throws. They threw in those bootleg overheads but anyone with a pulse could see them and just block. There was no penalty for just kicking it in down/back the whole match and just counter attack when need be. But yeah, combo breaking after 2 hits sucked.
Maybe it was where I played, but nobody did combo breakers on purpose. Everybody mashed like crazy but nobody actually did pull them off. But true, the lack of throws made the game incredibly turtle-friendly; when we stopped playing, 90% of matches ended with a timeout. That was a huge problem with the game.
Then you've got a game like MK1, where throws were wildly unbalanced (they are mostly unbalanced in most MKs anyway) and you can understand why throws were being considered cheap. I think the term "cheap" actually comes from the old MK1 days, where throwing just killed the game..
While 3s is not the most unbalanced fighting game ever, it’s not far from it. Yun/Chun Li/Ken just dominate that game too much. Yeah you may see some sexy Hugo’s red parry Yun’s every now and then, but Yun will win that match best out of 10 no matter what.
The problem with Parrying is that you can’t bait it and punish it. In A2 for example you could do low roundhouse and have them alpha counter and buffer the low roundhouse into dragon punch to beat the alpha counter. In A3, that whole game is based on who customs’ first so you can custom immediately afterwards and counter. In 3s even if I get the guy to parry, there is nothing guaranteeing I can do damage to him afterwards. Not only that it is the end all be all move – why should you get something that gets you out of every situation? Why should I not be rewarded for rushing you down and you are now in the corner?
Yun/Chun/Ken dominate 3s, but that's only in high-level play (which you seem to say doesn't matter as much as the fun-factor). My 3s character is Makoto.. I picked her because I felt she was underused, had a lot of potential and was generally fun to play. When I used to do lots of online 3s (before the US release, when things weren't laggy) I racked up quite a few wins using her, and she became my choice character. Of course I couldn't beat the good guys who used Yun or Ken, but I still was able to beat people of the same skill level when they used those characters.
I think the mistake you are making about parries is that baiting them is different than baiting a AC in Alpha 2. In 3s, you actually want people to attempt to parry nothing. Empty jumps were not present before 3s; they are a good example of why parrying works. After you get your jump ins parried, you come to the conclusion that you have to do empty jumping to bait a parry and use the opportunity to attack. If an opponent parries something, it's usually bad for you; if they attempt a parry but meet with nothing, it's much better for you. Their ryhtmn is thrown out of whack, and you can exploit this weakness afterwards. Add to that that 3s is a very pokey game and you've got play mechanics that are more complicated than in most fighting games (which is why I think it failed, in comparison to SF2. Casual SF players thought it was too similar, and are befuddled by the pick you own super system).
And to argue for arguing's sakes, Yun/Chun/Ken dominates the game too much mmmmaybe but in 3S, the skill level of the player determines the outcome a lot more than the tiers of the chosen characters. Ken is a different story, but Chun and Yun can be defeated by many other characters on the roster with vs. Chun/Yun specific strategies.
There's nothing broken with Ken, he's just a well-round character with little flaws- so you can't defeat him with anything but normal 3S strategies.
And throwing was never cheap, agreed.
I agree, people make a big shit about Ken, he's not that great... He's just... Blahh cross up camobo super.. Same shit.. And he has a safe sweep.. Dont get me wrong, not saying he's not a good character, but i dont think he dominates the other characters in the game.. Yun and Chun, ya you could say they do. Yun is to fast n tricky, and Chun is not as fast but she really does have a bunch of safe ass attacks.
And no, throwing is'nt cheap and never was too me, but to alotta of people it was. The average person, not the pro's.
I dunno Thedude.com, ive never heard of that game, send us a link to a vid or something.
So, what do you guys think of the gameplay in these new cell chaded fighting games?? Like Naruto and DB Budakai 2&3?.. I like the visuals, and i think they do a good job with the special attacks and stuff, but the normal gamplay is like ass.. And again the supers are cool as shit, but they take you away from the gameplay as you watch them ( and some of them could be quite long) What would it take to make a game with the same lush visuals and cinematic supermoves thats still gave you the same of interactivity as you did them. I have'nt played much Naruto so i dunno what choices your opponent has when you do supers, but in GBB3 its like "Paper, Rock,Scissors" and it feels like your playing a completely different game then ( not that the normal gameplay is reputable).
I dunno, i really like these cells shaded fighters they are great eye candy and they really do an excellent job of keeping that same feel and emotion from the anime they're based on. But is it possible to make em with a more well rounded and addictive game play?? Like i said, i'm mostlikely gonna go 2-d on this game, but if do a 3-d version it would be the same anime style chells shading i'd just have to brainsrom with a shitload of people a way to make the gameplay feel better before i decide to go 3-d. It seems 2 me like the different camera angles in these games ( or ALL 3-d fighters) are what make it difficult to keep a steady gameplay. Why is it so hard to make 3-d feel like 2-d???
I think what everyone here is talking about is not balance - but competitiveness. Everyone wants their character to be able to win. I think this is an important distinction.
Being able to sweep rolls is not a bad idea and I'll tell you why. Rolls being used as footsies (rolling through someone's low forward, etc) is fine, they were still able to do that. Maybe I should have clarified and said that they weren't sweepable the entire time, just at the end. The problem with rolls is that to punish them, you have to get close enough to throw (or theperson rolling has to roll close enough to you). This would not change anything about when you are stuck in fireball recovery and fools are rolling at you and you eat stupid custom or super. I'm talking about more ways to punish then just a throw. How many times have you gone to throw a roll and all you see is your throw whiffing and them activating custom or doing super?
Chess is cheap cause white gets to go first.
I'm not throwing this card out there to drop any names or anything, but I live in Southern California and my competition is ridiculous. I live in an area where my local Ken players are Valle/Paul Lee, my local yun players are Pyrolee, my local chun players are Geo, etc. So maybe i'm looking at the extreme end of things but my this is my local competition. So when I say Yun/Ken/Chun Li dominate 3s - not only do they dominate Japan but they also dominate the US. Name me the last tournament that was not won by one of these 3 characters? And yes, I think Ken is the weakest of the top 3, but he is still there.
I remember driving 3 hours to go play the beta test of Street Fighter 3: New Generation or whatever in the world it was called in Chicago and I can tell you why that shit failed - it was slow, ugly (that background that came up when you did supers) and all the character designs sucked - old man with one arm, main character was some wrestler dude that yelled out jesus in a girls voice, that weird purple stretchy guy, etc. The cast just keeps getting further and further away from being accessible - dude with a mask and a trench coat, some weird...transforming thingie, half naked guy creating walls, effeminate version of guile, etc.
Derek
skisonic
07-07-2005, 01:01 PM
There are fighting games that people just pick up and find it fun to play. Games like Mortal Kombat or Smash Bros. Then there are games where people get obsessed with, while others think it's a game for nerdatrons only. Games like 3S or CVS2.
www.smashboards.com
www.mortalkombatonline.com
these were both games being considered in evo, you think theyre any different?
silly boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
It you're incredibly serious about this, I suggest not using Mugen. PM me if you're open to...other ideas.
Mike Z
Mike, these other ideas..... whats up? what am i missing out on??
nanitaberu
07-10-2005, 12:41 PM
www.smashboards.com
www.mortalkombatonline.com
these were both games being considered in evo, you think theyre any different?
silly boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
i didn't say you can't be competitive or obsessed with smash bros and MK, i'm just saying they're fun to play even if you're unskilled.
the other games i mentioned requires you to be skilled to have fun with. (i.e. my girlfriend dun wanna play 3rd strike with me)
vBulletin® v3.8.0 Beta 2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.