HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution!

[KingRaoh]

i'm in the market for a small television/ monitor (under 20") for gaming and as a second monitor for my computer. can anyone make any recommendations? all of this native resolution and such is foreign to me. i'm looking for something like this...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7768711&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat95100050020&id=1142288915135

i don't wanna lag!

[Cowdisease]

Hey, what is the Best way to connect an Xbox 360 to my TV? I have HDMI, VGA, and Component inputs- I think the 360 only supports Component and VGA though? I have both cables cause I play my 360 on my PC monitor sometimes. Just wondering. Thanks.The current Xbox 360s do not have an HDMI port, so you are left with component and VGA. You can get great visuals with both component and VGA, but VGA has an edge because it upscales your DVDs to 720p. However, you will have to calibrate your TV with something like the Avia DVD (http://www.amazon.com/AVIA-Guide-Home-Theater/dp/630551982X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5726013-3274233?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1173194909&sr=8-1), because some have complained that VGA shows washed-up colors on an uncalibrated set.

Supposedly, an updated version of the Avia DVD (called Avia II) will come out in a few months, so you might want to wait a bit before you buy the DVD.

[final_cut]

The current Xbox 360s do not have an HDMI port, so you are left with component and VGA. You can get great visuals with both component and VGA, but VGA has an edge because it upscales your DVDs to 720p. However, you will have to calibrate your TV with something like the Avia DVD (http://www.amazon.com/AVIA-Guide-Home-Theater/dp/630551982X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5726013-3274233?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1173194909&sr=8-1), because some have complained that VGA shows washed-up colors on an uncalibrated set.

Supposedly, an updated version of the Avia DVD (called Avia II) will come out in a few months, so you might want to wait a bit before you buy the DVD.

Cool, thanks for the advise. Although, now that I have my TV and have been messing with it a bit, I've found that the component connections don't look very good- it seems a little blurry? or a lot more blurry if I go over 480p. I don't know if it is because I haven't calibrated it very well or something but I did everything the guides have told me to do. I switched the 360 cables to HD, and plugged in the Component cables in the right place, but anything over 480p is just blurry. I'm only going by what is in the dashboard though.

So with these 1080i and 1080p resolutions, are you supposed to get that from component connections? cause they look like crap on my TV if I go over 480p in the 360's display menu.

With my PS3, on the other hand, shit looks amazing over HDMI in 1080i.

[Cowdisease]

Cool, thanks for the advise. Although, now that I have my TV and have been messing with it a bit, I've found that the component connections don't look very good- it seems a little blurry? or a lot more blurry if I go over 480p. I don't know if it is because I haven't calibrated it very well or something but I did everything the guides have told me to do. I switched the 360 cables to HD, and plugged in the Component cables in the right place, but anything over 480p is just blurry. I'm only going by what is in the dashboard though.

So with these 1080i and 1080p resolutions, are you supposed to get that from component connections? cause they look like crap on my TV if I go over 480p in the 360's display menu.

With my PS3, on the other hand, shit looks amazing over HDMI in 1080i.What kind of TV do you have? What resolutions does your TV support over component? If it's blurry, there's a good chance that you'll have to increase the sharpness. I would set the Xbox 360 to 720p, since that's what the Xbox 360 natively supports (some scaling is involved when it's set to 1080i), unless your TV does not support 720p and can only do 1080i.

[final_cut]

In the book, it lists the supported resolutions, everything from 480p to 1080p, but I can only get it to look good in higer resolution with the HDMI cable from my cable TV box and my PS3.

with the 360, anything over 480p looks not just blurry, but off-colored and dark. 480p looks about as good as the last TV I had, but not especially great.

I don't really know how to check what my TV supports over component, as this info isn't in the manual...? I'll probably have my VGA wires on hand by this evening, so If that works out to a good resolution I'll be happy.

[FMJaguar]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814144506

a reviewer claims this has no lag when using with ps2 games, i don't have it so i can't confirm, but if it's not using a hardware encoder, it's possible

[Kayin]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814144506

a reviewer claims this has no lag when using with ps2 games, i don't have it so i can't confirm, but if it's not using a hardware encoder, it's possible

Whoa, if it doesn't lag and for that price you really can't go wrong.

[Preppy]

If anybody has feedback on the Sharp LC52D62U 52 inch Aquos LCD, lemme know, it'd be much appreciated.

I *have* read up on this thread in full and on AVSForums (both threads), but YOU guys are the people I'd love to hear from. I'll have the usual suspect gamer inputs: XBox 360, Dreamcast, and PS2 (although I may get a PS3). I will definitely keep an eye open for any banding issues.

I've liked what I've seen so far (we played XBox 360 at the shop on it), and will probably go with it at this point. But it's a lot of money, so if somebody randomly has wisdom/gamer usage tips to drop, I'm all ears. :tup:

[poonage]

i'm in the market for a small television/ monitor (under 20") for gaming and as a second monitor for my computer. can anyone make any recommendations? all of this native resolution and such is foreign to me. i'm looking for something like this...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7768711&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat95100050020&id=1142288915135

i don't wanna lag!

It will lag. If doubling as a computer monitor is a requirement, then you should use an XRGB-2+ or XRGB-3 for gaming on the monitor and a TV Tuner from the PC portion for viewing.

If convenience is your priority, just buy the TV and deal with the lag. If perfection is your priority, you should consider another route.

[Preppy]

If anybody has feedback on the Sharp LC52D62U 52 inch Aquos LCD, lemme know, it'd be much appreciated.

I *have* read up on this thread in full and on AVSForums (both threads), but YOU guys are the people I'd love to hear from. I'll have the usual suspect gamer inputs: XBox 360, Dreamcast, and PS2 (although I may get a PS3). I will definitely keep an eye open for any banding issues.

I've liked what I've seen so far (we played XBox 360 at the shop on it), and will probably go with it at this point. But it's a lot of money, so if somebody randomly has wisdom/gamer usage tips to drop, I'm all ears. :tup:To answer myself, it looks like the 92U is much better. It's $400 more, but the component input is 1080p compatible, which means it's that much better for xbox 360 users. =\

[Toodles]

this is a lie.

i have a DC
i have a VGA output
i STILL have lag.


(mind you its not as bad as with composite, but still at least a 1-5 frame lag)

how i can tell you ask?

i can't do the ROM infinite on my LCD HDTV, however on my other TV's i can.

The timing is precise, and u can't tell right away that there is lag until you try it.

Hook it up to a proper PC monitor and try again. Betcha you'll rom just fine. You can also try a good set of headphone and compare the difference is sound delay. You can also try a regular PC's video output to your HDTV. You'll find that if you test any of these, process of elimination would show you that the lag is caused by your TV trying to rescale things. The initial post here was about getting video on a HDTV with the fastest possible rescaling (XRGB+) or without rescaling (DC VGA box) for TV's that wont resample VGA input. If the delay is as massive as you describe, your TV is still resampling VGA.

I don't know HDTV's very well, but I fucking KNOW my Dreamcast tech.

[Dark Akuma]

What about a Samsung SlimFit HDTV just the 27 inch. It is tube but doesn't it have 480i as well with it? I am new to the HD thing. I just want to play my ps2 with no lag.

[poonage]

What about a Samsung SlimFit HDTV just the 27 inch. It is tube but doesn't it have 480i as well with it? I am new to the HD thing. I just want to play my ps2 with no lag.


HDTVs can never display 480i directly. They can accept and display 480i signals, but they will be scaled which is the main cause of lag. If your TV's only function is to play your PS2 with no lag, you should buy a Standard Definition TV.

[ParryAll]

Hey guys my Samsung HDTV has a native resolution of 1080i.

My 360 has a native resolution 720p.

Sooo...what should I set my shit too for optimal shit?

[poonage]

Hey guys my Samsung HDTV has a native resolution of 1080i.

My 360 has a native resolution 720p.

Sooo...what should I set my shit too for optimal shit?

You should set your 360 to output 1080i.

[ParryAll]

Thanks.

I had another question. A friend of mine has a Sony TV. It doesn't have an HDTV logo on it, but it does have component and a port that is either a VGA or an HDMI (can't remember).

Anyway, when you put the games in anything above 480p, the TV letterboxes the image. So at 720p or 1080i, it is letterboxed.

Now my theory is that his TV is "faking" the high def outputs by letterboxing the image. Or is he right and it really is an HDTV? Perhaps an older model? It's CRT and it's about 3-4 years old BTW.

This guy is dumb though, he thinks that my tv isn't HD because when I set 720p or 1080i my tv doesn't letterbox :rolleyes: even though my tv says HDTV fucking written on it. He also thinks his image quality is better (it's not it looks washed out).

[Cowdisease]

Thanks.

I had another question. A friend of mine has a Sony TV. It doesn't have an HDTV logo on it, but it does have component and a port that is either a VGA or an HDMI (can't remember).

Anyway, when you put the games in anything above 480p, the TV letterboxes the image. So at 720p or 1080i, it is letterboxed.

Now my theory is that his TV is "faking" the high def outputs by letterboxing the image. Or is he right and it really is an HDTV? Perhaps an older model? It's CRT and it's about 3-4 years old BTW.

This guy is dumb though, he thinks that my tv isn't HD because when I set 720p or 1080i my tv doesn't letterbox :rolleyes: even though my tv says HDTV fucking written on it. He also thinks his image quality is better (it's not it looks washed out).What's the model number of the Sony TV set?

[final_cut]

so I fixed my resolution problems with my HDTV and my Xbox 360 by using VGA- it looks completely amazing in comparison to component cables. Ive noticed, however, that anything on the TV that isn't VGA or HDMI totally lags, and it makes me sad... I can't play third strike on XBL anymore.

[poonage]

Thanks.

I had another question. A friend of mine has a Sony TV. It doesn't have an HDTV logo on it, but it does have component and a port that is either a VGA or an HDMI (can't remember).

Anyway, when you put the games in anything above 480p, the TV letterboxes the image. So at 720p or 1080i, it is letterboxed.

Now my theory is that his TV is "faking" the high def outputs by letterboxing the image. Or is he right and it really is an HDTV? Perhaps an older model? It's CRT and it's about 3-4 years old BTW.

This guy is dumb though, he thinks that my tv isn't HD because when I set 720p or 1080i my tv doesn't letterbox :rolleyes: even though my tv says HDTV fucking written on it. He also thinks his image quality is better (it's not it looks washed out).

All HD signals are technically supposed to be 16:9, so there were many 4:3 HDTVs created 3-5 years ago that force letterboxing on HD signals (most widescreen HDTVs do this as well). HDTVs that allow you to display HD signals in a 4:3 window are in the minority; they're typically "forced" to 16:9.

So, your friend's HDTV is really an HDTV, and your HDTV is a rare television that can display HD signals in 4:3 as well as the typical 16:9.

[aktham]

here's a question i've been meaning to ask

I know HDTVs have "response time", what is CRT's response time? (suppose connecting a PS2 to a Standard Def 480i TV with component cables).

Is it zero or so small that it is basically considered zero?

[DH020]

Is there actual HDTV that does not lag ps2 games?? (480p)

[Cowdisease]

Is there actual HDTV that does not lag ps2 games?? (480p)Probably not. Your only option is to get a PS3. They display PS1/2 games in 480p. Supposedly the new PS3s that will come out in April/May will lose hardware BC, but they will have the added feature of displaying certain PS2 games in 720p.

[final_cut]

What sucks about the PS3 game thing is that I can't play ps2 imports and I can't use my joysticks for ps2 games with my ps3.

Yeah, not playing third strike online or KOFXI on my PS2 is killing me.

Would finding a VGA adapter for my PS2 or Xbox help? cause my VGA connected 360 doesn't lag at all, nor does my HDMI PS3 or my PC. Now would be a really great time for Microsoft to add SFAC to the bc list....
just so I can play third strike on my TV without lag.

[Cowdisease]

Would finding a VGA adapter for my PS2 or Xbox help? cause my VGA connected 360 doesn't lag at all, nor does my HDMI PS3 or my PC. Now would be a really great time for Microsoft to add SFAC to the bc list....
just so I can play third strike on my TV without lag.Not sure. I unfortunately don't have any knowledge as to whether there is any lag converting a progressive signal to VGA, but even if a converter like Neoya X2VGA 2 (http://www.x2vga.com/) is lag-free, you still have lag problems with certain PS2 games that don't output in 480p.

[final_cut]

hmm... I don't imagine that 2d ps2 fighters would output in 480p, but I dunno. but that would probably work with the xbox, I'm thinking.... I think I might give that thing a try.
Thanks again for the help.

[Cowdisease]

hmm... I don't imagine that 2d ps2 fighters would output in 480p, but I dunno. but that would probably work with the xbox, I'm thinking.... I think I might give that thing a try.
Thanks again for the help.Here's a list of progressive scan PS2 games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Progressive_Scan_PS2_Games), including several 2D fighters.

[final_cut]

Here's a list of progressive scan PS2 games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Progressive_Scan_PS2_Games), including several 2D fighters.

ooh! KOFXI, Slash and CFE. not bad! exactly what I want.
Cowdisease reaches hero status.

[Preppy]

Somebody should fill out the Capcom 2d fighting games on that page. :sad:

[poonage]

Probably not. Your only option is to get a PS3. They display PS1/2 games in 480p. Supposedly the new PS3s that will come out in April/May will lose hardware BC, but they will have the added feature of displaying certain PS2 games in 720p.

The PS3's forced 480p output on 480i-only PS2 games has built-in lag (2 frames) so using a PS3 to "Get around the lag" is a lost cause; the PS3 itself has built in lag in backwards compatibility mode when using HDMI/outputting 480p. You can read all about that here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=753069


Would finding a VGA adapter for my PS2 or Xbox help? cause my VGA connected 360 doesn't lag at all, nor does my HDMI PS3 or my PC. Now would be a really great time for Microsoft to add SFAC to the bc list....
just so I can play third strike on my TV without lag.

That's exactly what the FAQ on the very first page says to do. Maybe you should read it! Keep in mind that an updated version is kept at AVS Forum here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125

The recommended VGA adapters for PS2/X-Box are the XRGB-2+ and XRGB-3. Both can do a completely lag-free 480i to 640x480p VGA conversion with no lag, but you'd know that if you read the FAQ so get to reading.



Somebody should fill out the Capcom 2d fighting games on that page.
The only two Capcom 2D fighters with Progressive Scan/480p output are Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 2 and Capcom Fighting Jam/Evolution. CFE is already listed on the Wiki page.

[Cowdisease]

The PS3's forced 480p output on 480i-only PS2 games has built-in lag (2 frames) so using a PS3 to "Get around the lag" is a lost cause; the PS3 itself has built in lag in backwards compatibility mode when using HDMI/outputting 480p.Thanks for the heads up. I assumed that the PS3's scaler works as well the Xbox 360's. Looks like it's not the case.

[Kayin]

PS3's BC looks completely worthless. =/

[Cowdisease]

Remember when someone did the Final Fantasy X PS2/PS3 comparison video to show how bad the PS3 BC was? Wasn't it resolved in a system update? If so, did that update also fix the 480i lag issue? I just realized that the thread poonage pointed to hasn't been updated since November and I'm curious to know if the info in that thread still applies.

[Preppy]

^-- my point. Something updated more regularly would seem of high value. :sad:

All I want to know is given the current state of the world, if I'm planning on largely playing PS2 fighting games (Capcom) on a high-def LCD -- should I go with the PS2/XRGB or the PS3? :sad:

[poonage]

Remember when someone did the Final Fantasy X PS2/PS3 comparison video to show how bad the PS3 BC was? Wasn't it resolved in a system update? If so, did that update also fix the 480i lag issue? I just realized that the thread poonage pointed to hasn't been updated since November and I'm curious to know if the info in that thread still applies.

The graphical glitch issue in BC mode was a completely different issue from the HDMI lag issue. The firmware update only fixed the graphical glitch bug; it didn't fix the HDMI lag issue nor did it fix the graphical glitches caused by the HDMI's poor de-interlacing for BC games (easy to see in 3rd Strike, Yun will look crazy when you activate Genei-Jin and parry animations are also messed up).

In orther words, all information in the AVS Forum thread from November still applies. That thread hasn't been updated because it hasn't needed to be updated, and Sony clearly has no plans to address this issue.

[ryeyoo]

I'm thinking about picking up the xrgb3, but I've got a few questions:

Does it improve the image quality of the ps2 on top of faster scaling? I've got some blurring on my tv on the ps2 as a source but it looks fine with HD sources.
I'm wondering if this would help with image quality on top of the aformentioned lag problems that this would fix.
Also, what is a d-link cable?

[ParryAll]

All HD signals are technically supposed to be 16:9, so there were many 4:3 HDTVs created 3-5 years ago that force letterboxing on HD signals (most widescreen HDTVs do this as well). HDTVs that allow you to display HD signals in a 4:3 window are in the minority; they're typically "forced" to 16:9.

So, your friend's HDTV is really an HDTV, and your HDTV is a rare television that can display HD signals in 4:3 as well as the typical 16:9.

You're right. I actually found a setting in my tv to set it to 16:9 and it letterboxes.

Is there any loss of quality since mine is displaying an HD image in 4:3? I don't notice any, and it sure looks a hell of alot better than it does when i set it to 16:9 IMO.

[Spoonman]

The only two Capcom 2D fighters with Progressive Scan/480p output are Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 2 and Capcom Fighting Jam/Evolution. CFE is already listed on the Wiki page.

Nope, "Street Fighter Alpha Anthology" also supports Progressive Scan/480p output, so that game needs to be added to that wiki list.

I have a question by the way, its about the settings on PS3 when pleaying 480p capable PS2 games, here I go..

As far as I undestand, if you play a PS2 game that can be displayed at 480p (by pressing triangle and X after start up) on a PS3 via HDMI, the lag won't be serious because by allowing 480p within the game (X and triangle) you're bypassing the forced 480p that PS3/HDMI would cause (and the serious lag), now the question is, what's the display option that the PS3 needs to be set to?

[Kayin]

This is a bit on a different subject, but I figured some people here would have some knowledge of this. I'm looking to get rid of my two CRT TV's as they're bulky and take up too much space, so basically I want to know how a an external/VGA TV tuner with composite cable support connected to an LCD monitor would do for gaming. Would there be any lag?

[poonage]

I have a question by the way, its about the settings on PS3 when pleaying 480p capable PS2 games, here I go..

As far as I undestand, if you play a PS2 game that can be displayed at 480p (by pressing triangle and X after start up) on a PS3 via HDMI, the lag won't be serious because by allowing 480p within the game (X and triangle) you're bypassing the forced 480p that PS3/HDMI would cause (and the serious lag), now the question is, what's the display option that the PS3 needs to be set to?

The PS3 can be set to anything, it doesn't matter as long as you're hooked up with Component or HDMI. The Progressive Scan mode in PS2 games completely overrides the PS3's video settings.

[DH020]

I heard connecting your ps2 through VGA to a HDTV causes no lag? is this true?

[poonage]

I heard connecting your ps2 through VGA to a HDTV causes no lag? is this true?

Read post 1

[Kayin]

This is a bit on a different subject, but I figured some people here would have some knowledge of this. I'm looking to get rid of my two CRT TV's as they're bulky and take up too much space, so basically I want to know how a an external/VGA TV tuner with composite cable support connected to an LCD monitor would do for gaming. Would there be any lag?

Can anyone answer this? I don't wanna shell out cash just to lag~

[FMJaguar]

This is a bit on a different subject, but I figured some people here would have some knowledge of this. I'm looking to get rid of my two CRT TV's as they're bulky and take up too much space, so basically I want to know how a an external/VGA TV tuner with composite cable support connected to an LCD monitor would do for gaming. Would there be any lag?

When you say 'external vga/tv tuner' your talking about a wide range of products, i own one of the $50 range ones and it lags, but i only use it for tv.

The bottom line is that no external boxes have been identified as 'lag-free', the only device that has so far is the XRGB.

Its possible that some of the newer and or more expensive boxes may be better, but noone's really willing to waste their money testing it out.

[Kayin]

When you say 'external vga/tv tuner' your talking about a wide range of products, i own one of the $50 range ones and it lags, but i only use it for tv.

The bottom line is that no external boxes have been identified as 'lag-free', the only device that has so far is the XRGB.

Its possible that some of the newer and or more expensive boxes may be better, but noone's really willing to waste their money testing it out.

Thanks, I'll just wait for a better solution then.

[Shinto]

K well I got a couple of questions, i don't know if anyone would answer but here I go...

My birthday is coming up in 3 days away and I plan on getting a hdtv......

My friend is telling me get a lcd computer monitor and use a vga to play my 360 on....would there be a big difference from a hdtv and a lcd monitor?

Also anyone wanna give a rating on this tv for me? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8251241&st=hdtv&lp=15&type=product&cp=1&id=1169512520871

[FMJaguar]

$431 for a 19", that thing better play marvel for me.

[Shinto]

$431 for a 19", that thing better play marvel for me.

So thats a no go eh?:sweat:

[totaltoanage]

i got the Samsung LNT3253H, the newest line from samsung. Best rated 32". Are LCDs ever going to not lag with marvel? this absolutely blows. theres bound to be a way.

EDIT: marvel lags on VGA converter, the lag is about couple frames. 2-3 frames is about right. very pretty set but not for gaming.

[asianxcore]

I'm thinking of picking up component cables for my PS2, which I'll be hooking up to a 32" LCD TV.

Here's the question. Is it worth it for 2-D fighters that do no support 480p? I've noticed a lot of them are sort of blurry (especially 3S), would I notice a dramatic difference running my PS2 through component? I also noticed Hokuto No Ken looks pretty good over composite, will component make it look better?

[aktham]

here's a question i've been meaning to ask

I know HDTVs have "response time", what is CRT's response time? (suppose connecting a PS2 to a Standard Def 480i TV with component cables).

Is it zero or so small that it is basically considered zero?

anybody?

[ryeyoo]

Pretty sure CRTs show images immediately(0ms) because they work by emitting light onto the glass. Whereas with LCDs the crystals probably have to change colors and/or move around the screen. If I remember correctly at least..

[vapulus]

Pretty sure CRTs show images immediately(0ms) because they work by emitting light onto the glass. Whereas with LCDs the crystals probably have to change colors and/or move around the screen. If I remember correctly at least..

This isn't what creates the lag. An old standard def CRT doesn't lag because it's MEANT to support a PS2 or other 480i signals. HD sets (including HD CRT's) lag because they have to take that 480i signal and de-interlace it, and then scale it up until it fits the native resolution of the set. Some sets are faster than others at doing this.

[ryeyoo]

Your right about that being the reason for input lag, but he was asking about response time of the different television sets.

[Tron li]

Is it possible for a HD LCD TV to NOT have lag?

I recently purchased this tv (http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,1704,00.html) and been trying to test out how the works with gaming. So far, I can't tell of any lag at all. I can still do all my combos, still hit 'perfects' in music games, and still parry Chun's SAII. I've only played an actual match on it once and it seemed fine then too.

But from reading the first post, my understanding is that it's impossible for there NOT to be lag. The PS2's input has to be upscaled by the tv and will create at least 1/10 (6 frames) of lag. Which is unacceptable, of course. But is 1/10 of a sec too fast to tell with a naked eye? I tried testing out everything I could think of that would be good at telling if there was lag and still it seemed fine. Anyone have a good way to test?

[poonage]

Is it possible for a HD LCD TV to NOT have lag?

I recently purchased this tv (http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,1704,00.html) and been trying to test out how the works with gaming. So far, I can't tell of any lag at all. I can still do all my combos, still hit 'perfects' in music games, and still parry Chun's SAII. I've only played an actual match on it once and it seemed fine then too.

But from reading the first post, my understanding is that it's impossible for there NOT to be lag. The PS2's input has to be upscaled by the tv and will create at least 1/10 (6 frames) of lag. Which is unacceptable, of course. But is 1/10 of a sec too fast to tell with a naked eye? I tried testing out everything I could think of that would be good at telling if there was lag and still it seemed fine. Anyone have a good way to test?

Yes, you can easily test using Guitar Hero II's built-in HDTV Lag test in the options menu (been mentioned in this thread several times). You don't need a Guitar controller, just the game and a control pad.

It all depends on the HDTV, but the "best" one I've seen out-of-the-box took 17ms which is around exactly one frame. One frame or more is all it takes for gameplay to be unconsciously affected, but two frames or higher is when top gamers can clearly notice something wrong.

[Demon Dash]

So we're having problems running Final Burn Alpha for the X-Box on my mates HDTV. We can get composite signals to work fine in both 50hz and 60hz, but for some reason FBA wont work. All we get is a flicking black and white screen... Does anyone know a solution to this problem?

[kekken3]

AFAIK, the programs themselves (*.xbe files) must support progressive scan. I've seen some homemade conversions for games that normally don't support it. People basically edit the default.xbe (main game exe) to support progressive scan. Maybe something like that should first be done with FBA if it doesn't support it trough its options. Maybe someone's already done it, or maybe some other emulator supports the feature (there's also MameX and KawaXXX).

[Demon Dash]

So the emulator needs to run in progressive scan to work? I think it has that in it's options...

[kekken3]

Mmm, sorry, I've missread your post. Quickly reading HDTV and flickering, I assumed you meant "component" not "composite". Then scrap my previous post. :wasted:
On top of that, I really wouldn't know what's causing your problem with Final Burn. How about getting another copy of the program from somewhere else? Ah, yeah, I think some dashboards allow you to change individual video settings for every program (you select their icon with another button), so maybe FBA in your dashboard is set to automatically display in a format not supported like PAL (which would be strange on a HDTV but who knows). Or maybe it's already set to progressive scan, which won't work if you connect the console trough composite cables.

[Striderhyru05]

I recently bought a 42 inch samsung, I play xbox 360 games at 1080i and the only small problem I have seen was that once or twice in gears of war I had to hit the reload button a split second earlier than the white bar, I was guessing it could have been from the wide screen, or just the lag. that was the only lag I saw in the game.

[RoninChaos]

I was thinking about picking up a 34 inch wide screen HD CRT that's getting phased out. I read some of the thread, and I'll read more later, but would it be a good buy since it's a crt or should I save my money and keep waiting and get something that would be bigger but might have some noticable lag? I'm mainly playing xbox 360 right now but I still have my old systems hooked up.

[SaBrE]

I recently bought a 42 inch samsung, I play xbox 360 games at 1080i and the only small problem I have seen was that once or twice in gears of war I had to hit the reload button a split second earlier than the white bar, I was guessing it could have been from the wide screen, or just the lag. that was the only lag I saw in the game.


you sure your tv native resolution is 1080i and not 720p? games should not lag if you set your games to the same resolution that is native to your tv. if you play at the correct resoultion, theres no upscanning or down scanning needed then. unless im dumb and theres some shitty tv's out there that still lag even when they match?

ronin: i say save up and get an lcd. crt hdtv does not guarantee lag free on 480 signals. crt tv's tend to have 2 native resoultions tho. if one is 480i or 480p, then you are good to go.

regardless of what people may say, i bought an Olevia 337H 720p 37in LCD a few months back brand new for like 600 or so and the shit works like a dream. only downside is the cnnections on the back are kind of a pain, but not like that really matters in the long run. only thing you gotta do is update firmware when you get it to fix some silly issues. ive never had problems and the picture quality is great.

the suprising part is, theres no lag on 480 games. ive played many sessions of 3s and slash on my tv and no one has complained one bit.my stuff is hooked up with component, dunno if it would lag tho with composite or s-video tho. no reason to use that tho heh.

[RockCho]

Question:

I've got a generic VGA box that lets me use any component or S-Video video signal and use it for computer monitors (video signal only), will this be as effective as the expensive microsoft vga box at the beginning of the thread? Also, will this let me solve the issue with any HDTV that has VGA input?

Thanks!

[Daidoji Kage]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814144506

a reviewer claims this has no lag when using with ps2 games, i don't have it so i can't confirm, but if it's not using a hardware encoder, it's possible

Is anyone able to confirm anything on this?

I was just gifted with a fantastic LG 32LC2D, but it lags bad and basically makes 2-D fighters impossible.

...if anyone can give any input on this reasonably soon, it would be great. My brother has offered to take my Trinitron back home since its a space taker. If I'm going to need it though...

Thanks for any and all help!

[R | C]

I'm looking to get a new LCD HDTV:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11212229&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&N=4001382&Mo=22&pos=1&No=0&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=3316&Ns=P_Price|0||P_SignDesc1&Sp=C&ec=&topnav=

I don't know a lot about HDTV. Will this tv work well with ps2 games?
Is it worth it? If not, a better suggestion?

Thanks

[evilj]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between these 3 26 inch samsung lcds? I'm not very good with reading descriptions, the only thing I noticed was that some have more component inputs than others, and different specs such as height and width. Why is the price so different?

And some 23 inch ones cost more than the 26 one.
$679
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7682536&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat95100050039&id=1134703182075
$769
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7677926&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat95100050039&id=1134702961701
$899
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8250126&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat95100050039&id=1169512290242

[Kevin_0089]

Is anyone able to confirm anything on this?

I was just gifted with a fantastic LG 32LC2D, but it lags bad and basically makes 2-D fighters impossible.

...if anyone can give any input on this reasonably soon, it would be great. My brother has offered to take my Trinitron back home since its a space taker. If I'm going to need it though...

Thanks for any and all help!

Hi Daidoji Kage. I recently bought a LG 32lc7d which is basically the same as your tv. Just like you, I was experiencing videogame lag. Last saturday, I bought an HDMI cable for my PS3 and the problem is fixed! So, don't give up yet! The LG is a great LCD tv and has potential. For whatever system you are trying to hook up, try to get an HDMI cable or Component cable. Both will do. DO NOT use Composite cables as this is what is producing the lag. Hope this helps!

Kevin_0089

[totaltoanage]

http://www.x2vga.com/

would this eliminate lag? on my sammy 3253H marvel lags just a little bit, even with game mode on and its hooked up to a VGA output. With this its supposed to upconvert to 480p through vga. its pretty cheap

[Cowdisease]

I'm looking to get a new LCD HDTV:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11212229&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&N=4001382&Mo=22&pos=1&No=0&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=3316&Ns=P_Price|0||P_SignDesc1&Sp=C&ec=&topnav=

I don't know a lot about HDTV. Will this tv work well with ps2 games?
Is it worth it? If not, a better suggestion?

ThanksNo HDTV will work well with PS2 games. You'll need a device like the XRGB-2 converter to upscale the 480i signal of PS2 games to 480p without lag. The PS3 recently released a firmware that upscales PS1/PS2 games to 1080p, but I want to hear from fubarduck if that new capability solves the upscale lag the PS3 normally has.

EDIT: poonage states in another thread that there is still lag.

[poonage]

http://www.x2vga.com/

would this eliminate lag? on my sammy 3253H marvel lags just a little bit, even with game mode on and its hooked up to a VGA output. With this its supposed to upconvert to 480p through vga. its pretty cheap

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5867014#post5867014

All working products are listed on the first page of the updated FAQ above. Other products should be avoided at all costs--if the product doesn't mention anything about response time, IT WILL LAG.

Also, PS3 Firmware 1.8 still lags on all PS1/PS2 titles when upscaling. It buffers frames to perform deinterlacing which causes a minimum 2 frame delay, same as before. Tested and confirmed with Guitar Hero II.

[ShinjiGohan]

I saw this at Frys yesterday, looks interesting, has anyone heard anything about it?

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/SlimFitHDTV/files/txs3082.pdf

[SlaughterX]

So now that the PS3 can upconvert games to HD resolutions, does that eliminate lag caused by the TV trying to upconvert it? Should it run normally is the console is upconverting it to the TV's native resolution?

[onimusha10154]

Nope. The PS3 still has built-in lag when it upconverts the ps1/ps2 games. The new 1.80 firmware will not get rid of the lag that so many ppl had hoped for even though it upscales now. On top of that I'm also hearing the VSHG was disabled for ps1/ps2 games as well.

[SaBrE]

more reason to just keep your ps2 and get an upscaler for hdtv. or just keep a crt around =)

[Spoonman]

Nope. The PS3 still has built-in lag when it upconverts the ps1/ps2 games. The new 1.80 firmware will not get rid of the lag that so many ppl had hoped for even though it upscales now. On top of that I'm also hearing the VSHG was disabled for ps1/ps2 games as well.

Sorry for my ignorance but, whats VSHG?

[ExMachina]

VSHG = Virtua Stick High Grade

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-zl-49-en-70-1rjw.html

And this lack of upconversion for BC games is really troublesome... I really wish Sony had followed MS's example with the 360's BC here. Yeah, they're still patching it to support more XB games, but the BC + upconversion is really well done for the ones that are compatible.

[Shadowcuz]

I'm thinking of picking up component cables for my PS2, which I'll be hooking up to a 32" LCD TV.

Here's the question. Is it worth it for 2-D fighters that do no support 480p? I've noticed a lot of them are sort of blurry (especially 3S), would I notice a dramatic difference running my PS2 through component? I also noticed Hokuto No Ken looks pretty good over composite, will component make it look better?

can anybody answer his question? im basically on the same boath as him

[poonage]

can anybody answer his question? im basically on the same boath as him

This question has nothing to do with video game lag on HDTVs.

[Shadowcuz]

This question has nothing to do with video game lag on HDTVs.

ah crap nvm ><

well heres my question: i just bought a LG 32' LCD 720p, and of course i experienced some lag in my games like GGXX/ and T5. Would buying component cables for my PS2 make it lag free?

[ShinjiGohan]

no, those games are set at either 480i or 480p, so in order for it to be displayed on your TV, your TV has to upscale the image to 720p so it can be displayed. This upscaling process takes time, which is what introduces lag. Reading this thread would hold most of the steps needed to reduce your lag, but it'll be almost impossible to eliminate it.

[JAMMAR]

Don't most TV's nowadays support lower resolutions than the native one? In this case, if that LCD did support 480p, when hooked up with component, it should do the trick right?

[SaBrE]

j.mm.r: no. unless your lcd is native 480p. most tv's have a game mode of some sort where the upscaling process is simplified, where image quality is sacrificed for less or no lag. some tv's do this well and eliminate it, some will still lag, but not as bad. and some tv's dont have this mode at all.

as for resolutions. tv's only have ONE resolution, the native resolution. the common hdtv's native resolution is always either 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. only one of those 3. now any of the tv's with those resoultions will accept signals ranging from 480i to 1080p. but if the accepted signal does not match native res of the screen, it has to be converted.

now using component cables on a ps2 mixed with a game that has progressive scan mode, can decrease lag considerably. a progressive signal converted into a higher progressive signal converts faster than an interlaced into progressive conversion.

i got an olevia 337h 720p LCD, and this bitch doesnt lag on my ps2 games at all. the games low resolutions just look crappy heh

[Shadowcuz]

now using component cables on a ps2 mixed with a game that has progressive scan mode, can decrease lag considerably. a progressive signal converted into a higher progressive signal converts faster than an interlaced into progressive conversion.

i got an olevia 337h 720p LCD, and this bitch doesnt lag on my ps2 games at all. the games low resolutions just look crappy heh

is your PS2 connected through a component?

[totaltoanage]

game mode on my sammy reduces lag but its still some there. its a good amount where i can play but not acceptable.

[SaBrE]

is your PS2 connected through a component?

yeah i woudnt dare use older consoles without component or vga if its DC on an hdtv

[RoninChaos]

ronin: i say save up and get an lcd. crt hdtv does not guarantee lag free on 480 signals. crt tv's tend to have 2 native resoultions tho. if one is 480i or 480p, then you are good to go.

regardless of what people may say, i bought an Olevia 337H 720p 37in LCD a few months back brand new for like 600 or so and the shit works like a dream. only downside is the cnnections on the back are kind of a pain, but not like that really matters in the long run. only thing you gotta do is update firmware when you get it to fix some silly issues. ive never had problems and the picture quality is great.

the suprising part is, theres no lag on 480 games. ive played many sessions of 3s and slash on my tv and no one has complained one bit.my stuff is hooked up with component, dunno if it would lag tho with composite or s-video tho. no reason to use that tho heh.

You know, I was thinking of picking up one of their TVs. Any other issues you've noticed with the TV? I used to work at Circuit City and my old manager swears by that brand. Seems like a good buy. Thing is I'll be using whatever TV I get mainly to play games and watch movies. How are the black levels on that tv anyway?

[SaBrE]

well, i really like the tv. its my first entry into the HDTV market. The image quality is really nice. Blacks are pretty good i think. i know thats always a concern with LCD. I dont really have anything, tv wise, to compare it to. i dunno what common tv's are on the market that have excellent blacks to make a comparison. but to me, they seem fine. i can always try a comparison at work or something.. but i have no complaints with image quality at all when playing 360,ps3, or hd movies. really sharp

the only real drawbacks to this model to me, is there is only 1 component and 1 hdmi. but a reliable powered splitter can do the job. and the way the inputs are placed on the back of the tv can be troublesome. the inputs face the ground instead of facing out, traditionally. not really a big deal tho

if you get one, just make sure you update the firmware first, unless they are now shipped with the new update. i was told the tv did some funky stuff if you didnt update it. dont remember what it was and i never seen problems cuz i patched the second i took it out of the box. i havent had any malfunctions or anything weird. so im very satisfied. i wasnt expecting this good of quality to be honest.

the fact i can play my ps2 lag free is fucking nice too. =)

[JAMMAR]

j.mm.r: no. unless your lcd is native 480p. most tv's have a game mode of some sort where the upscaling process is simplified, where image quality is sacrificed for less or no lag. some tv's do this well and eliminate it, some will still lag, but not as bad. and some tv's dont have this mode at all.

as for resolutions. tv's only have ONE resolution, the native resolution. the common hdtv's native resolution is always either 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. only one of those 3. now any of the tv's with those resoultions will accept signals ranging from 480i to 1080p. but if the accepted signal does not match native res of the screen, it has to be converted.

So when people jump for joy that Slash and KOFXI are 480p, it's just really the fact that these games would just lag less than if it did not have 480p compatibility? They cannot hope to get lagless play if their TV native resolution is any higher than that?

Also, is there such thing as downscaling then? Theoretically speaking for example, a 720p native trying to take on a 1080p signal. Would there be lag then too in this case? Could this also relate the buyer decision to make 1080p a factor when buying a new HDTV?

[poonage]

So when people jump for joy that Slash and KOFXI are 480p, it's just really the fact that these games would just lag less than if it did not have 480p compatibility? They cannot hope to get lagless play if their TV native resolution is any higher than that?

Also, is there such thing as downscaling then? Theoretically speaking for example, a 720p native trying to take on a 1080p signal. Would there be lag then too in this case? Could this also relate the buyer decision to make 1080p a factor when buying a new HDTV?

You can get lagless play on a HDTV with 480p, but not 480i. As stated in the FAQ, the most strenuous part of signal conversion is not SCALING (480p to 720p/1080i/1080p) but DEINTERLACING (480i to 480p). So, not only does 480p look crisper than 480i, it is also possible to play the game lag-free on many (but not all) HDTVs.

Scaling among HD resolutions (between 720p, 1080i, and 1080p) can be, and is usually done without any lag, but that doesn't mean it always is. Keep in mind though that a 720p native HDTV usually cannot even accept a 1080p signal in the first place.

[Scynix]

Hrm, I have a panasonic 42" plasma hdtv (Model TH-42PX600U (http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv/panasonic-th42px600u.html)), my friend and I play regularly on my dreamcast (MvC2/CvS2) and haven't noticed any slow down. Obviously maybe were just bad players.

Is there any way I can tell for sure what kind of slow down my tv is getting? I know the thread suggests going to a store and trying it, but I seriously can't do that.

[JAMMAR]

it is also possible to play the game lag-free on many (but not all) HDTVs.

Any way of knowing what HDTV's definitely do or do not do lag-free?

Keep in mind though that a 720p native HDTV usually cannot even accept a 1080p signal in the first place.

Yeah I sorta already knew this but I just had to make sure after confusing myself. Thanks for the info.


Hrm, I have a panasonic 42" plasma hdtv (Model TH-42PX600U (http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv/panasonic-th42px600u.html)), my friend and I play regularly on my dreamcast (MvC2/CvS2) and haven't noticed any slow down. Obviously maybe were just bad players.

Is there any way I can tell for sure what kind of slow down my tv is getting? I know the thread suggests going to a store and trying it, but I seriously can't do that.

I heard that TV doesn't even lag on 480i games. Are you using VGA for your DC?

Assuming by slow-down you mean lag, as far as I know there are a couple of ways of knowing. Fighting games themselves are time-specific, so if you have no trouble executing all the hard combos and techniques (like FRC), then you're good. If you think you just suck too much like you were mentioning, then time to play Guitar Hero, Beatmania, or another rhythm action game with timing... unless of course you suck at finding the beat haha.

[poonage]

Is there any way I can tell for sure what kind of slow down my tv is getting? I know the thread suggests going to a store and trying it, but I seriously can't do that.
Any way of knowing what HDTV's definitely do or do not do lag-free?

Yes, as stated several times in the thread, you can use Guitar Hero 2 for PS2 or X-Box 360 to test. You don't need a Guitar controller, just the game. There's a built-in lag test in the option menu.

GH2 for PS2 has a Progressive Scan option as well, so you can easily switch between testing 480i and 480p. For the X360 version, you'd have to change your settings from the dashboard menu to test each resolution.

[Spoonman]

yeah i woudnt dare use older consoles without component or vga if its DC on an hdtv

I have DC an a lot of games for it, so before making a jump for a HDTV, I really need to know a good way to hook up a DC to a HDTV, what VGA are you using for your DC? is it just a cable from DC to TV or is some kind of Box? where in your TV does the VGA thing conects to?

I also have a Saturn but I don't know if there are good ways to connect it to a HDTV, since I have heard more about the DC regarding that situation.

[SaBrE]

the official vga cable for DC. the dc natively supports vga. unless you dont have a vga port on the tv

[Spoonman]

Ok, thanks Sabre, but what happens with the DC games that aren't compatible with VGA? they are upscaled and have lag? I'm mostly worried about the fighting games and I don't know if the majority of them support the VGA, whats your experience regarding that?

[SaBrE]

well pretty much all fighters support vga. expecially the big guys (mvc2,cvs2, etc...) if the game doesnt support vga, it wont work, period, IIRC. the vga cable wont guarantee lag free on all tv's, but it solves the problem effortlessly on most. it doesnt hurt to try, the cable is pretty much 10bucks, give or take. its highly recommended regardless.

the only sure fire way to eliminate lag(which is posted on the intial thread post) on damn near all hdtv's is to get an external video scaler. xrgb series absolutely do the best with this. the tv just has to have a vga port. and the hardware is not cheap. but its definitely worth the money.

[Arnel]

So, I'm shopping for an LCD that's 60" and above . I'd also like to play my ps3 on it eventually when all the good titles come out. I'd like to know what my best bet is for compatibility for ps3 that's a 60" and above. Thx

ps. i heard lcds last longer than plasmas. is that true?

[Shadowcuz]

since im planning on purchasing a component cable for my PS2, is it better to buy the official Sony one or go for the cheaper 3rd party kind? Would it make any difference?

[1]

Has anyone had any experience with the Samsung LNT2653HX?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889102126

I'm looking to buy it for my gaming needs but will also use it as a monitor. I'll be sitting about 2 feet away as it'll be propped on my computer desk.

Is 26 inch too small? I was also looking at some 32" for a little more.

[SaBrE]

So, I'm shopping for an LCD that's 60" and above . I'd also like to play my ps3 on it eventually when all the good titles come out. I'd like to know what my best bet is for compatibility for ps3 that's a 60" and above. Thx

ps. i heard lcds last longer than plasmas. is that true?

i dont think you are gonna find an lcd tv thats 60in.

but regarding ps3. ps3 and 360 work fine, on any tv since they support, literally, every resolution that tv's, new and old, spit out

1: bigger the better =)

shadow: i would only use official or monster. avoid the shitty ones

[1]

1: bigger the better =)


I guess you're right.:smile: It's not that much more.

Are Samsungs a safe way to go?

[Arnel]

[QUOTE=SaBrE;3968772]i dont think you are gonna find an lcd tv thats 60in.

but regarding ps3. ps3 and 360 work fine, on any tv since they support, literally, every resolution that tv's, new and old, spit out

that cant be right dude, the biggest hdtv lcd tv i've seen was a 68" at bestbuy. ok so, something like the hdtv lcd 68" for example, it'd be compatible right? no lag no nothing?

[totaltoanage]

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1857/img0958jl5.jpg

This is my first hdtv and im glad its the 3253H series. I have a 360 and it plays really well on it. If you can afford a bigger size, i say go for it. My room is kinda cozy so i dont need the 40". Its rated at 7.9 on cnet and personally they really know their tvs, the highest rated hdtv is rated 8.7. It also has a built in QAM Tuner which is about the same as a ATSC where you receive free HD channels through your provider, mine is timewarner.

SF wise i havent tried but marvel, and it lags a little bit with the vga cable. Im assuming the upscalers will fix it but i dont play marvel on my tv.

[SaBrE]

that cant be right dude, the biggest hdtv lcd tv i've seen was a 68" at bestbuy. ok so, something like the hdtv lcd 68" for example, it'd be compatible right? no lag no nothing?

flat panel lcd or rear projection lcd? ive never seen a flat panel lcd that large, or anything lcd for that matter. usually only DLP goes that large, and plasma. but then again, i wouldnt be suprised...

edit: samsung make good tv's

[totaltoanage]

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/01/cimg0186.jpg

ZOMG

[R | C]

Where can I buy the XRGB units?
They seem to be sold out on various sites.

[JAMMAR]

Just noticed this thing got unstickied...

Anyway, why, in particular, is the Westinghouse 37' 1080p model so beastly in many people's eyes? Why not the 42' or the 47' model?

[Kayin]

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/01/cimg0186.jpg

ZOMG

Girl standing next to the TV = I'd hit it.

[Mulligan]

Ok so ive been looking for a tv for a few weeks now. After reading this thread and the avs forum threads it doesnt seem like hd/plasma/lcd tvs are gonna be acceptable to me. So now im looking for SDTV (480i) crt tvs. My question is how do those tvs work with games that play is higher resolutions (720p) for example. Is it even possible to play those games on that kind of tv?

[SaBrE]

its possible, but the games will look like trash since most games on next gen(minus the wii) are usually optimized at 720p. honestly, to me, theres no reason to get a crt anymore as a main tv

[KING]

I saw this at Frys yesterday, looks interesting, has anyone heard anything about it?

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/SlimFitHDTV/files/txs3082.pdf

my friend actually bought that model; he says that he's been play 3s regularly and landing his complex Necro combos without a hitch...probably the Game Mode...i was going to get the 40" model...

he also has a PS3, and of course, VF5 looks beautiful on it...

[ShinjiGohan]

thanks, now to save up the money to get it lol

[agentz]

Where can I buy the XRGB units?
They seem to be sold out on various sites.

Anybody? I'm having the same issue

[ShinjiGohan]

wait.... was he playing on Ps2? or Xbox? Cause xbox outputs in 480p and not 480i unlike the PS2.... well in either case I just got an dvdo iscan v2 line doubler and playing on my computer crt. and just won an xrgb2 on ebay...

For those asking I did see another one on ebay but the guy didn't list which version it was.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

I have a modded xbox, with xbox media center 1.10. If I plug this thing into an hdtv, does xbmc automatically set my resolution to 480p, or do I need the high def av pack? Even then, do I need to change the resolution in the MS dashboard, and will those settings transfer over when I load up xbmc?

I just play roms on it, and it would be awesome if I could hook up my xbox to an hdtv and not get any lag.

Thanks.

[ParryAll]

Quick question: Does the Wii lag on HDTV's?

[A.C]

Quick question: Does the Wii lag on HDTV's?

If you have a quality deinterlacer, no. 480i > 480p is what causes lag.

So for all Wii games running in native 480p there should be no lag - as scaling is easy. It's those frelling 480i games that cause the trouble. If the HDTV in question has a "game mode" then that will help trim the post-processing fat, but in the end it comes down to how good is your deiterlace.

That is why I always look for TV's with Faroudja DCDi. But to answer your question, some TV's will lag on 480i games, some will not. Its way too case dependent.

[Ri-eN]

my specified lag problem is on x360, i play 3s and i play it on a

Sony BRAVIA XBR 40" 1080p Flat-Panel LCD HDTV

when i start it , it seems to auto convert to 480i, will an upscaler fix this?

[onimusha10154]

If you have a quality deinterlacer, no. 480i > 480p is what causes lag.

So for all Wii games running in native 480p there should be no lag - as scaling is easy. It's those frelling 480i games that cause the trouble. If the HDTV in question has a "game mode" then that will help trim the post-processing fat, but in the end it comes down to how good is your deiterlace.

That is why I always look for TV's with Faroudja DCDi. But to answer your question, some TV's will lag on 480i games, some will not. Its way too case dependent.

Doesn't it also depends on your hdtv's native resolution? I have found out that my samsung 30" slimfit hdtv crt also lags at 480p. GH2 said there was about 30ms response time lag on 480p. 480i recorded 60ms response time. I'm guessing my tv's native resolution is 1080i or 720p?

[Cowdisease]

I have a modded xbox, with xbox media center 1.10. If I plug this thing into an hdtv, does xbmc automatically set my resolution to 480p, or do I need the high def av pack? Even then, do I need to change the resolution in the MS dashboard, and will those settings transfer over when I load up xbmc?

I just play roms on it, and it would be awesome if I could hook up my xbox to an hdtv and not get any lag.

Thanks.The High Def pack is required if you want to hook up your Xbox with component cables (unless you got the Monster brand of component cables, which makes the hi-def pack unnecessary). You'll need the component cables to get the high def resolutions (480p & above).

Theoretically, setting the highest video settings on your Xbox dashboard should carry over to XBMC. When my Xbox was set to 720p, one of my emulators gave me an error message when I try to set the video settings to 1080i--"your XBox does not support this resolution". You might have to set and save your new HD video settings on the XBMC after you make the dashboard change though.

my specified lag problem is on x360, i play 3s and i play it on a

Sony BRAVIA XBR 40" 1080p Flat-Panel LCD HDTV

when i start it , it seems to auto convert to 480i, will an upscaler fix this?If you have hooked up your Xbox 360 to your Sony set with component cables or VGA cable (or HDMI if you have an Elite model), then you should be seeing your Xbox games upscaled to 720p/1080i, not 480i. When playing SFAC on widescreen, the system stretches the game to fit the widescreen aspect ratio, so you'll have change your TV setting to non-widescreen mode every time you play 3rd Strike.

EDIT: Xbox 360 now supports 1080p. Are you sure you set that in the Xbox 360's video settings?

[Ri-eN]

1080i is what the max resolution is, sorry i put p on accident

[A.C]

Doesn't it also depends on your hdtv's native resolution? I have found out that my samsung 30" slimfit hdtv crt also lags at 480p. GH2 said there was about 30ms response time lag on 480p. 480i recorded 60ms response time. I'm guessing my tv's native resolution is 1080i or 720p?

Lag doesn't really depend on native rez. Scaling is too easy. The problems is 2 fold: 1. deinterlacing and 2. post-process applications.

Samsung is notorious for applying all manner of filters, etc to their images to make them look better. They boast improved color, contrast, etc. However there is a price to be paid - and lag is chief among them. It takes time to apply post-process features & sometimes they are so integrated into the TV that its impossible to avoid them. "Game modes" have been implemented to reduce the amount of extra crap done to the picture - but like I said, some things are so interwoven into the video processor that they are unavoidable.

In the end, it is a case-by-case study. To say that all Wii games will lag on all systems is in error. On some systems all Wii games may lag and on some systems all Wii games will be lag-free. In practical terms, native resolution doesn't really matter. It's the other stuff.

PS. CRT's do not have "native resolutions." Not like fixed pixel displays. The method for presenting an on-screen image is pretty apples-to-oranges when compared to LCD, plasma, DLP, etc.

[Cowdisease]

1080i is what the max resolution is, sorry i put p on accidentMy statement still stands. As long as you match the video settings of your Xbox 360 to your TV's native resolution, you shouldn't be experiencing lag on your Xbox games since the 360 upscales them to 720p/1080i. If there is any lag, then it's probably because of the symptoms A.C described in his post.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

The High Def pack is required if you want to hook up your Xbox with component cables (unless you got the Monster brand of component cables, which makes the hi-def pack unnecessary). You'll need the component cables to get the high def resolutions (480p & above).

Theoretically, setting the highest video settings on your Xbox dashboard should carry over to XBMC. When my Xbox was set to 720p, one of my emulators gave me an error message when I try to set the video settings to 1080i--"your XBox does not support this resolution". You might have to set and save your new HD video settings on the XBMC after you make the dashboard change though.



So if I get the high def pack off ebay (pricey), will the original MS dashboard automatically give me the option to display at 480p? There is nothing I have to do besides plugging in the component cables?

thanks

[A.C]

you just set what output you want in the dashboard. i believe this is done by pressing L3 & R3 at start up (been a while since i did it myself).

[poonage]

PS. CRT's do not have "native resolutions." Not like fixed pixel displays. The method for presenting an on-screen image is pretty apples-to-oranges when compared to LCD, plasma, DLP, etc.

CRT TVs do indeed have native resolutions, although some CRT HDTVs (VERY few) do support multiple native resolutions.

All CRT SDTV's native resolution is 720x480i. CRT HDTVs are either just 1080i OR 1080i and 480p (but most are just 1080i).

This is why CRT HDTVs suffer the same lag issues as all others.

However, you are spot-on about deinterlacing and post-processing being the primary causes of lag. "Scaling" is simply used as a catch-word since it's a lot simpler to understand than deinterlacing.

[A.C]

valid correction. but what i meant to say was CRT technology. we all know computer monitors support multiple "native resolutions" - however there are always limitations. that is why i (unsuccessfully) attempted to disclaimer my point by stating CRT's do not fall into the same category as digital displays. yes, both have limitations, but it is truly an apples to oranges comparison.

one dude here on the boards was looking at the Samsung slimfit earlier. checking out the spec sheet it apparently supports several native output resolutions: 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i (maximum 800 scan lines of h.rez). this kind of diverse statistic is impossible for fixed pixel displays.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/SlimFitHDTV/files/tx-t3093wh.pdf

[ShinjiGohan]

That'd be me. Now one of the posters here said that their friend plays 3s with no concernable lag at all. Then later one someone reports it having 30ms of lag on 480p and 60ms on 480i (well one of their models at least).

The one I linked to only displays 480p and 1080i, where 480i is upscaled to 480p, and 720p is upscaled to 1080i.

But since there is still apparently 30ms of lag even of the same incoming and outgoing resolution, there are probably some other post processing algorithems that samsung is using to enchance the picture. But I see no word of a "game mode". Which right now is my main deterent. If I can find out if it has it then I'd be set.

[poonage]

valid correction. but what i meant to say was CRT technology. we all know computer monitors support multiple "native resolutions" - however there are always limitations. that is why i (unsuccessfully) attempted to disclaimer my point by stating CRT's do not fall into the same category as digital displays. yes, both have limitations, but it is truly an apples to oranges comparison.

one dude here on the boards was looking at the Samsung slimfit earlier. checking out the spec sheet it apparently supports several native output resolutions: 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i (maximum 800 scan lines of h.rez). this kind of diverse statistic is impossible for fixed pixel displays.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/SlimFitHDTV/files/tx-t3093wh.pdf

No, actually the Slimfit's only native resolution is 1080i.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

SUPPORTED RESOLUTIONS

is VERY different than

NATIVE RESOLUTION.

The Slimfit, like most CRT HDTVs, upscales all content to 1080i. This is the NATIVE RESOLUTION.

Supported resolutions are resolutions that are SUPPORTED by the display, i.e. you can plug in a 480i/480p/720p signal and the TV's scaler will deinterlace and/or scale the content to 1080i (which means definite lag for 480i sources).

There are ZERO CRT TVs that have both 480i and 480p as native resolutions. It's either 480i-only or 480p-only.

CRT HDTV manufacturers ALMOST NEVER advertise the native resolution of the display.

So, like I said, most CRT HDTVs are 1080i native-resolution ONLY.
The ONLY 480p+1080i native resolution HDTVs I have ever even seen or heard of are the Sony XBR800/900 series (and of course these still do not support 480i natively).

Some Toshiba HDTVs can do both 540p and 1080i, but 540p is really just 1080i with no interlacing so the frequencies are the same.

-end lesson

[A.C]

You may be right - I guess i haven't put much research into CRT displays (not nearly like I have digital) however basically you are saying that the product literature is misleading (if not downright false advertising).

I'm just curious (as I'll never own another CRT) but maybe you can help me with my general knowledge:

1. Do PC monitors (crt) support different native resolutions? Does the electron gun aim at different pitches to create different amount of scan lines? Or does it duplicate scan lines, in order to fill the screen?

2. The linked literature says, "Native resolution display format," when it listed 480i/p,720p,1080i. Is that just semantics regarding INPUT format? Tricky, because "display" means "output" in my book.

3. When the literature quotes 800 max lines of horizontal resolution - how can one extrapolate the "native resolution." To me, this is the most honest variable of the CRT. It would appear to me that it can only draw up to 800 horizontal lines... which is neither 1080i or 720p.

[Cowdisease]

So if I get the high def pack off ebay (pricey), will the original MS dashboard automatically give me the option to display at 480p? There is nothing I have to do besides plugging in the component cables?

thanksYes to both questions. You might be able to find the Monster brand Xbox component cables cheaper through eBay.

[ShinjiGohan]

XRGB2+ question. Whenever I use the scart connection, the vertical and horizontal hold go haywire. This is from using
monster component to scart connector
as well as
ps2 scart connector

is there some kind of extra requirements for this to work?

[xqoole]

Not sure if this is common knowledge, but I thought I should mention this as I've been looking up stuff on getting a ps2 to run on a vga monitor. Please note that this has not yet been tested by myself, so if you're in the know and see any glaring oversights or mistakes in this please let me know.

Anyway, with a simple cable as constructed here:


http://skygate.bravehost.com/PS2_VGA_cable.html
(note: it's the first cable without the added chip)

...you can hook up your ps2 to directly to a Sync on Green monitor. Note that you can only play 480p games (check hdtvarcade.com for what games are 480p) on it though, which sucks, but they will be top quality with no lag on a crt. Add a dreamcast with a vga box and a computer with Mame and such and you're set for lag free gaming with premier picture quality.

As to what monitors are Sync on green, here's a list:

http://playstation2-linux.com/sog.php


Most of the trinitron monitors are sog. The absolute best monitor for this would be this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-GDM-FW900-Widescreen-Trinitron-Monitor/dp/B00004YNSR

I'd love to get that one, but it's a bit pricey, the 21 and 19 trinitrons are really affordable now though.

Anyway, this is the route I'm probably gonna go for a little cab I'm making. I decided I couldn't deal with the lag of an lcd (upscaling or response time lag) but I wanted to be able to get decent quality, so I ditched the plain old TV idea too.


Bad thing about this is that the ps2 3s is not 480p, so it won't work on this setup. You could always emulate though. Mvc2 is covered on the DC or on nulldc, CvS2 too, and the Alpha Anthology is 480p on the ps2, so those all would work great. IIRC most of the kof games are 480p on the ps2 as well.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

So, do hdtv's allow you to change the display mode? Could I simply set my hdtv to only display at 480i/p, and then switch it back if I want to a console that supports higher resolutions? Can game modes be set as low as 480i? I do not understand why I simply can't tell my tv to display at a resolution, and or change it on the fly, or are manufactuers completely phasing out 480i display modes? Shopping around online only tells me their max resolution, so I do not know if what I am asking for is possible.

[ShinjiGohan]

Not sure if this is common knowledge, but I thought I should mention this as I've been looking up stuff on getting a ps2 to run on a vga monitor. Please note that this has not yet been tested by myself, so if you're in the know and see any glaring oversights or mistakes in this please let me know.

Anyway, with a simple cable as constructed here:


http://skygate.bravehost.com/PS2_VGA_cable.html
(note: it's the first cable without the added chip)

...you can hook up your ps2 to directly to a Sync on Green monitor. Note that you can only play 480p games (check hdtvarcade.com for what games are 480p) on it though, which sucks, but they will be top quality with no lag on a crt. Add a dreamcast with a vga box and a computer with Mame and such and you're set for lag free gaming with premier picture quality.

As to what monitors are Sync on green, here's a list:

http://playstation2-linux.com/sog.php


Most of the trinitron monitors are sog. The absolute best monitor for this would be this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-GDM-FW900-Widescreen-Trinitron-Monitor/dp/B00004YNSR

I'd love to get that one, but it's a bit pricey, the 21 and 19 trinitrons are really affordable now though.

Anyway, this is the route I'm probably gonna go for a little cab I'm making. I decided I couldn't deal with the lag of an lcd (upscaling or response time lag) but I wanted to be able to get decent quality, so I ditched the plain old TV idea too.


Bad thing about this is that the ps2 3s is not 480p, so it won't work on this setup. You could always emulate though. Mvc2 is covered on the DC or on nulldc, CvS2 too, and the Alpha Anthology is 480p on the ps2, so those all would work great. IIRC most of the kof games are 480p on the ps2 as well.

you could get either a xrgb2+ or some other type of line double hardware that'll deinterlace for you. Then you can run those 480i games no problem

[vapulus]

So, do hdtv's allow you to change the display mode? Could I simply set my hdtv to only display at 480i/p, and then switch it back if I want to a console that supports higher resolutions? Can game modes be set as low as 480i? I do not understand why I simply can't tell my tv to display at a resolution, and or change it on the fly, or are manufactuers completely phasing out 480i display modes? Shopping around online only tells me their max resolution, so I do not know if what I am asking for is possible.

An HDTV is generally built with 1 resolution in mind. It will often support other resolutions, but it conforms the incoming signal to match what it natively displays. That's why there's no way around the lag situation. You don't set the TV's resolution. It only has 1, and it interprets anything that doesn't match.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

An HDTV is generally built with 1 resolution in mind. It will often support other resolutions, but it conforms the incoming signal to match what it natively displays. That's why there's no way around the lag situation. You don't set the TV's resolution. It only has 1, and it interprets anything that doesn't match.


Thanks for your response. But damn, this is really frustrating. I am tempted to take my parents' Toshiba, it is an older model that only displays at 480i/p! No lag on that thing, and is 52".

[Gen-An]

Nope, "Street Fighter Alpha Anthology" also supports Progressive Scan/480p output, so that game needs to be added to that wiki list.

So does the Darkstalkers Collection.

[xqoole]

you could get either a xrgb2+ or some other type of line double hardware that'll deinterlace for you. Then you can run those 480i games no problem

That's true, but aside from being expensive (for the xrgb2), there is still a tiny bit of lag. See this post from here by the guy that wrote the hdtv lag faq:


http://vjarmy.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3357&st=60&p=92011&#entry92011
---------------------------

fubarduck


Hey guys,

A little off topic, but Guitar Hero 2 has a lag calibration feature now in the video settings FYI.

For me, this was a fairly accurate way to measure how much lag I was getting going through just my HDTV and going through various external scaling boxes, including the XRGB-3.

I wrote a post about my comparison on AVSForum, but here's a quick summary of the performance:

XRGB-2/XRGB-2+ can process and display 480i and 480p signals in approximately 1/2 a frame, or 8 milliseconds. Output is 640x480p VGA.

XRGB-3 (in B1 mode) can process and display 480i and 480p signals in approximately 1/2 a frame, or 8 milliseconds. Output is 640x480p VGA. XRGB-3 (in B0 mode), on the other hand, has approximately 2 frames of processing time.

iScan VP20/VP30 w/ABT102D and iScan VP50 can process and display 480i signals in approxiamtely 1/2 a frame, or 8 milliseconds in "Game Mode 1" outputting any resolution. Progressive scan (480p/720p) signals lag slightly over 3 frames going through these processors, but this is being fixed soon in a firmware update.

Going straight to my TV, 480i signals lag approximately 3 frames and 480p signals approximately 1/2 a frame.


1/2 of a frame of processing time is the target, it seems to be the "bare minimum" to display the signal somewhat nicely without any noticeable input delay at all.


---------------------------


Not much lag, though.

[poonage]

Thanks for your response. But damn, this is really frustrating. I am tempted to take my parents' Toshiba, it is an older model that only displays at 480i/p! No lag on that thing, and is 52".

As stated many, many times in this thread there are no TVs that support both 480i and 480p natively. If it supports 480p, then 480p signals should be fine but the TV is upscaling/deinterlacing 480i signals and there is probably lag.

[xqoole]

Here's the post comparing the various external video scaler. Pretty interesting:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9748194&&

[Pablo_the_Mex]

The Toshiba I am referring to is one of the really old projection models. I believe it only goes to 480p with component cables and just displays 480i signals as is, because my ps2 looks like ass and I can parry in 3s with no problems. I take back my statement of no lag, but it is not noticeable.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

That xploder thing mentioned earlier in this thread, does it work with most ps2 games?

[Kayin]

Now, I'm curious. I keep hearing that most of the lag from 480i signals comes from the deinterlacing, so about how much lag should there be when going from 480i to 1080i? Is that fixable by any means? what about going from 720p to 1080i?

[poonage]

That xploder thing mentioned earlier in this thread, does it work with most ps2 games?

It only works with a few. Most fighting games are incompatible.

Now, I'm curious. I keep hearing that most of the lag from 480i signals comes from the deinterlacing, so about how much lag should there be when going from 480i to 1080i? Is that fixable by any means? what about going from 720p to 1080i?

Well, here's the thing: Before scaling can be performed, you need a complete frame. Therefore, you can't scale 480i to 1080i directly. Deinterlacing must still be performed (from 480i to 480p) and then the 480p frame can be scaled to 1080i.

To clarify, most devices that scale from 1080i to 720p do so by reading the 1080i signal as 540p and then scaling from 540p to 720p. There are very few devices that actually deinterlace 1080i to 1080p and then downscale to 720p (the iScan VP50 is the only one that comes to mind).

Finally, for 720p to 1080i, an algorithm is used to scale from 720p to 540p and then output interlaced from that, giving you 1080i. It's different depending on the device, but I think this is how it's done typically.


You will probably never experience lag going from any of the HD resolutions to another HD resolution, unless you're deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p (but most HD devices output 720p or 1080p to begin with).

[asianhitler]

Geebus, TV's nowadays are too complicated. So pretty much if you want to play last gen consoles, get a video scaler to reduce lag, because every hdtv will lag those games otherwise right?

How can you tell what resolution a game displays? Is it normally stated on the game box or in the instruction booklet?

[Chasem0]

I keep reading and hearing that the Sony KDP-51WS655 doesn't have lag problems, this true?

[onimusha10154]

I recently went to my local fry's to test out some hdtv's they had. The guys working there were kind of anal and kept telling me it'd be pointless to test out for hdtv lag when I can just look at the tv's "response time". Shows how much they knew what they were talking about... Anyways, they let me test out some of the tv's there with my gh2 and I found the Samsung LN-S2341W to have a 0 ms response time on the hdtv lag test with game mode for both 480i and 480p. Didn't really have time to test any other games where they had a guy watch over me while I test out for lag. Anybody else know about this tv? It's the same tv Nintendo uses for their Wii displays at EB/Gamestop.

[Kayin]

I recently went to my local fry's to test out some hdtv's they had. The guys working there were kind of anal and kept telling me it'd be pointless to test out for hdtv lag when I can just look at the tv's "response time". Shows how much they knew what they were talking about... Anyways, they let me test out some of the tv's there with my gh2 and I found the Samsung LN-S2341W to have a 0 ms response time on the hdtv lag test with game mode for both 480i and 480p. Didn't really have time to test any other games where they had a guy watch over me while I test out for lag. Anybody else know about this tv? It's the same tv Nintendo uses for their Wii displays at EB/Gamestop.

That's pretty amazing, too bad it's only 23" but for no lag? Wow.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Would the same apply to Samsung's larger models?

Like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LNS4041D-40-LCD-HDTV/dp/B000ELQTZA/ref=pd_sim_e_3/103-3059891-0951020

[onimusha10154]

Would the same apply to Samsung's larger models?

Like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LNS4041D-40-LCD-HDTV/dp/B000ELQTZA/ref=pd_sim_e_3/103-3059891-0951020

Maybe, they didn't have that model there for me to test so I wouldn't know. I also tested a newer model 23" version, Samsung LN-S2351W. That came out with 0ms response time during the test WITHOUT game mode on both 480i and 480p.

[Adam Warlock]

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Specifications-of-Panasonic-52-LCD-Projection-HDTV-PT-52LCX66/sem/rpsm/oid/152131/rpem/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do#tabs

That's the TV I'm getting. Anyone have any advice? What's the guitar hero test?

[SNAAAAKE]

anyone have anything about playing games on plasma ? my main concern is burn in...

I am seriously considering this one http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-42-Plasma-HDTV-HP-T4254/sem/rpsm/oid/174192/catOid/-12869/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
I know it will lag but I already have the xrgb2 upscan converter so it shouldnt be a problem for me. and I wont even be playing street fighter on this because I have an arcade cabinet with a crt vga monitor. this will be for movies and console games.

[Adam Warlock]

Recommended cables for HD? I don't want to pay for monster cables.

[totaltoanage]

Panasonic Plasma are good for gaming. Almost no lag stright from S-Video. My friend has that same tv, maybe bigger. But yea go for it.

[KingRaoh]

what resolution does ps2 anniversary collections display in?

[agentz]

It's standard. Ps3 will upscale it but any ps2 games running through a PS3 using HDMI or component lag

[DarthTrey]

Recommended cables for HD? I don't want to pay for monster cables.

new egg is a really good place to get cables as they are marked up like 500% at retail outlets(compusa, circuit city best buy ect.)

[Ghaleon]

The new 80gb ps3 uses software emulation for ps2 games, right? I'm really interested in knowing if this will elim lag for 3s and CvS2, seeing as how the firmware hardware upscaling does not fix HDTV lag on the 20/60gb units (if those games will be supported even). Anyone heard any info on this yet?

Because as far as I know the software emu for 360 fixes lag on XB1 games.

I'd recommend anything over LCD btw. Anything non-native res looks really ugly, and a lot of LCD TVs aren't even native 720p or 1080p, they're some weird middle random res.

[Daidoji Kage]

ah crap nvm ><

well heres my question: i just bought a LG 32' LCD 720p, and of course i experienced some lag in my games like GGXX/ and T5. Would buying component cables for my PS2 make it lag free?

Use component cables and run the games in Progressive scan mode (hold x and ^ during power up untill the memory card loads).

This seems to work with all games that have progressive scan for that TV (I have it).

I have a bunch of reular GGXX players at my place who have never noticed anything as far as lag with that set up on that tv.

Good luck.

[SaBrE]

anything non native on any hd technology looks ugly period. lcd is no worse. its all dependent on the brand and model on how it handles the non-native signal.

and yes, some lcd's native res are slightly higher than 720p. but we are talking like 40 or 50 pixels, which is nothing. it doesnt affect anything at all, its completely irrelevant. all it does is it just complies for pc resolution standards. in the end, it does nothing negative

as for ps3. i actually got to try bc games on 60gb ps3 with hardware bc (not emulation) at evo. we tried playing ccc2 st, which is a 480i game, on a regular tv, and it lagged....

wtf...lagged...

software emulation can fix the lag problem but now you face emulation errors in games (anyone thats used emulators on pc and even tried 3s on 360 bc know what im talking about). bc is a problem now, people are seriously best off with keeping their ps2 for ps2 games

[Ghaleon]

I definitely disagree regarding LCD -- in my experience plasma/DLP sets handle PS2 games much prettier :P Could have partly brand dependent but I think LCD is bottom-rung.

It really really sucks they went the extra mile to make CCC2 handle 480p too but the core game itself lags.

Just a note: I saw the Euro list has both CvS2 and HSFII listed as having no compatibility problems, so that will hopefully apply to us and the 80gb, which I'd guess is same emulation but just made to process NTSC. We'd really luck out if they play lag-free and have no game-harming issues.

I keep my old system anyway, but this would be a way to fix PS2 lag w/o spending hundereds on a perfect scaler.

edit: HSFII and CvS2 are both listed as having no "major" problems on the US site, so that's step 1. I hope someone can test the US versions soon for software emu probs + lag.

[JAMMAR]

Now with methods to doing 120hz on today's HDTVs, how does this affect HD gaming in general?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_blur

This wikipedia article states that it has a negative effect on video games since it adds latency (depending on TV). If your console or game already supports HD, this shouldn't be a problem in the first place correct?

[Pablo_the_Mex]

So, do rear projection HDTVs have lag too? I know the faq has DLP mentioned, but Sony has some nice SXRD technology plus there are others 3 chip projectors that are good, but I have no clue as to whether or not these still produce lag with 480i signals.

[Bunkei]

Maybe, they didn't have that model there for me to test so I wouldn't know. I also tested a newer model 23" version, Samsung LN-S2351W. That came out with 0ms response time during the test WITHOUT game mode on both 480i and 480p.


Thanks for the info, so now all we need is for someone to try out this or another similar model and see if there is indeed 0 lag or is the TV somehow fooling the test.

[ObsidianZ]

It's standard. Ps3 will upscale it but any ps2 games running through a PS3 using HDMI or component lag

So...How can I run ps2 games on a ps3 without lag?

Or is there no way to do it?

I've just browsed the thread so sorry if this has been answered.

*ObZ

[Humbag]

So, do rear projection HDTVs have lag too? I know the faq has DLP mentioned, but Sony has some nice SXRD technology plus there are others 3 chip projectors that are good, but I have no clue as to whether or not these still produce lag with 480i signals.

SXRD lags with ps2. My Dad bought one a while ago and I tested it.

Xbox 360 looks fucking amazing on it though.

[ShinjiGohan]

I just got my Samsung TXS3082 Slimfit TV for $100. I've tried various solutions or workarounds but it seems to lag no matter what :(. The lag is only 2-3 frames from my estimates.

I tried that Guitar Hero but I can't get a solid number for it. First try I get 120ms of lag, 2nd time I get 76ms. My brother tries it and gets 0ms of lag.... He does it again and again 0ms of lag. I try it and I get 40ms lol.

Essentially my times getting better and my brothers is always perfect... so I have no idea exactly how much lag I'm getting. I guess I'll have some friends come over that play it on a regular TV and see what they get.

BTW the work arounds are.
naming the component connection "game"
XRGB2+ (won't work cause its a VGA connection and stats that the signal is weak or nonexistant)
DVDO Double Line scanner (like XRGB 2+ but can output in component).
Enabling Progressive Scan from within the game itself
and using Xploders HDTV Player which makes the PS2 output in 480p, 720p, or 1080i.

Of course I have all settings on standard and with any possible post processing turned off.

Though I read that theres a hidden service menu in the TV, so maybe something in there can do something.... after I find the menu

[Kayin]

The hell? Is the GH2 lag test really that innacurate?

[Pablo_the_Mex]

SXRD lags with ps2. My Dad bought one a while ago and I tested it.

Xbox 360 looks fucking amazing on it though.

Damn thanks for the heads up, I really like those sets too. Arrghh, this is so damn frustrating.

[ShinjiGohan]

The hell? Is the GH2 lag test really that innacurate?

as I implied, I don't play most beat games so I'm not very good at them. Hence why my time got better lol. So I'm trying to press the button as it goes over. My brother however used to play a lot of DDR and takes into consideration the time to press the button and does it sooner and gets it every time...

But yeah, its some wacky results lol.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

So, can anyone CONFIRM, that using a dreamcast with vga inputs on an HDTV does not create lag?

[RoboKrikit]

So, can anyone CONFIRM, that using a dreamcast with vga inputs on an HDTV does not create lag?

The scaler in an HDTV, and how the manufacturer has set it up, determines the amount of lag the TV will have with different inputs. Since HDTVs have all sorts of different scalers in them, even from the same manufacturer, you need to test lag on each specific model HDTV to determine if it lags.

Some HDTVs have a separate (often simpler and faster) scaler for the VGA port, so VGA-in may not lag, even when the other inputs do.

It's a pain in the ass, and there's not much we can do about it right now except test individual models for lag. Be cautious about "lag-free" reports on specific HDTVs too, since people have different ideas regarding how much lag is "unplayable" or "lag-free", or are unable to detect small amounts of lag.

[PAYBACK]

Dreamcast VGA BOX on Samsung SyncMaster 940BWide LCD Monitor w/ 4ms GTG Response Time. I played marvel on it and tested that no lag is present, i was doing ROM and 98756898 fastflies, even double fastflies.

Heres some pictures to show how nice this cake is.

http://www.ajsbelts.com/vgabox2.jpg




So this is the solution to all dreamcast-related lag issues?


My Sharp acquos is not vga-input capable so will using a DREAMCAST VGA BOX in conjunction with a VGA -->COMPONENT adapter do the trick too?

Thanks

[totaltoanage]

every hdtv is gonna lag, some better than others. the only hdtv that i played on that has the least lag are panasonic plasmas. even on component the lag is hardly noticeable.

future technology can eliminate lag completely but i doubt until another 3 years.

[PAYBACK]

every hdtv is gonna lag, some better than others. the only hdtv that i played on that has the least lag are panasonic plasmas. even on component the lag is hardly noticeable.

future technology can eliminate lag completely but i doubt until another 3 years.

damn that's not what i was hoping to hear
Have you tested the vga box with other games like 3s and cvs2 if so how was the lag? and most importantly is the vga box worth buying?

[totaltoanage]

its worth buying if your tv doesnt lag. makes the overall picture very nice. seriously i bought myself a regular crt flat for games. hdtvs are only good for hidef.

[SNAAAAKE]

ANY flat panel should lag even with a vga box. they simply arent native 480p which is what dreamcast vga box outputs. I could be wrong though..you can try and see whats up. it doubt random component to vga cable will work though.

[StriderNC]

I bought a Sony CRT, it does 480p naitive. Then i hooked up an XRGB2 to it. Awsome picture and no lag.

[Theycalledhim Alan]

This may not be exactly related but I was hoping for the knowledgeable on HDTVs to inform if one is that much better than the other
1 - http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=188298&linkid=j13459594k134025&affiliateid=k134025&mid= 2 - http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=161576&WT.mc_n=66&WT.mc_t=U&cm_ven=COMPARISON%20SHOPPING&cm_cat=DEALTIME&cm_pla=DATAFEED-%3EPRODUCTS&cm_ite=1%20PRODUCT&cm_keycode=66

The first one is the cheaper of the two. I wanted to know if one is that much better than the other and if any of them are good HDTVs to begin with. I'd also like to add that this is mostly for a 360(If that makes a difference).

[onimusha10154]

This may not be exactly related but I was hoping for the knowledgeable on HDTVs to inform if one is that much better than the other
1 - http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=188298&linkid=j13459594k134025&affiliateid=k134025&mid= 2 - http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=161576&WT.mc_n=66&WT.mc_t=U&cm_ven=COMPARISON%20SHOPPING&cm_cat=DEALTIME&cm_pla=DATAFEED-%3EPRODUCTS&cm_ite=1%20PRODUCT&cm_keycode=66

The first one is the cheaper of the two. I wanted to know if one is that much better than the other and if any of them are good HDTVs to begin with. I'd also like to add that this is mostly for a 360(If that makes a difference).

I tested the sharp aquos at best buy and the only thing I know that's worth getting the aquos over the regular sharp hdtv is the new vyper drive game mode. It gets rid of hdtv lag as much as possible and still keeps the quality of the video. I tested out 3rd strike on it and it seems to be pretty good. Hardly felt any lag. GH2 lag test wasn't constant though. It ranged from 0ms to 10ms with the vyper drive game mode on, but that by itself was pretty good compared to other big hdtvs.

[ShinjiGohan]

considering that 1 frame is 16ms. If its ranging between 0-10ms then all is well.

[deadfrog]

I figured this would be the best place for such a question...

So they're saying new SSF2THDR will output at 1080p. What will happen if my PS3or Xbox360 is plugged into a good ol' run-of-the-mill CRT SDTV? (480i I guess)

Will the TV downscale the signal? Will the console downscale the signal? Will I just see the top right corner of the whole picture? Will I get a blank screen? Will any of this cause lag???

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[ShinjiGohan]

You can output your computer to a regular SD TV at both 640 by 480 and 800 by 600. So if you can adjust the PS3 to output to that then it should be alright, otherwise I'd think that the TV would not be able to accept the signal and either display nothing at all or possibly screw up the TV.

[NeoChaosX]

I figured this would be the best place for such a question...

So they're saying new SSF2THDR will output at 1080p. What will happen if my PS3or Xbox360 is plugged into a good ol' run-of-the-mill CRT SDTV? (480i I guess)

Will the TV downscale the signal? Will the console downscale the signal? Will I just see the top right corner of the whole picture? Will I get a blank screen? Will any of this cause lag???

Thanks in advance for any and all help.
It's going to be downscaled for older TVs, I'm sure (most likely by the system). I mean