HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution! [Archive] - Page 3

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Pablo_the_Mex

01-08-2008, 12:33 PM

just get XRGB-3 upscan converter then. it should be lag free on ANY badass tv :tup:

I did just track one down after months, not cheap and it probably won't even upscale all the way to 1080p.

Spirit Juice

01-08-2008, 05:44 PM

I did just track one down after months, not cheap and it probably won't even upscale all the way to 1080p.

This troubles me since we just got a 1080p TV. Guess I'll be forced to play on my CRT in my room if I want to play any fighting games on my PS2.

Pablo_the_Mex

01-08-2008, 05:52 PM

This troubles me since we just got a 1080p TV. Guess I'll be forced to play on my CRT in my room if I want to play any fighting games on my PS2.

Yes it is very annoying. Everyone says,"Oh just get an xrgb", because they are so easy to find right? I have been searching for one since the creation of this thread. Also, it is $300+, and I could have bought a 32" crt with that. Even if you track down an xrgb3, you need to update the firmware, and navigate through the japanese menus which I am sure I will fuck up. Thankfully, there is a site that walks you through it but I am sure the process will suck. The only other option is to buy that $1000+ upscaler, which is just absurd.

I asked if anyone had success with an xrgb3->1080p but no one seems to have used this combo before. I play marvel, 1-2 frames of lag is enough to kill you in that game. Marvel is serious.

RoboKrikit

01-09-2008, 12:13 AM

The only other option is to buy that $1000+ upscaler, which is just absurd.

Gefen has a few cheaper scalers ranging from $350 to $500. They all claim less than 1 frame lag.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/htconverters.jsp

These:

HD Mate Scaler
Home Theater Scaler
Home Theater Scaler PLUS

Each has different inputs, with the PLUS one supporting the most varied types. Still pretty expensive, but at least there's some other options out there for people who've already bought TVs with laggy internal scalers.

Pablo_the_Mex

01-09-2008, 12:39 AM

Gefen has a few cheaper scalers ranging from $350 to $500. They all claim less than 1 frame lag.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/htconverters.jsp

These:

HD Mate Scaler
Home Theater Scaler
Home Theater Scaler PLUS

Each has different inputs, with the PLUS one supporting the most varied types. Still pretty expensive, but at least there's some other options out there for people who've already bought TVs with laggy internal scalers.

Nice find, I would not mind paying extra as long as it worked. If the xrgb3 sucks ass, I will definitely look into those.

Thanks.

Captain Ryu

01-10-2008, 08:57 AM

I kinda notice some lag in ZSNES on my pc. I have a 21" lcd dell monitor (I believe they're made by samsung). Is it normal to have this prob on a pc emulator? I know some emulators already come with like 1 frame of input delay but this seems like more.

I actually have a dual monitor setup, so when I load up zsnes on my crt monitr I can't really notice the lag. Is there any way I can load this up on my lcd and eliminate the lag?

NeoChaosX

01-10-2008, 11:32 AM

It's not your LCD at fault here, an LCD computer monitor does not do the same amount of image processing on an image that an HDTV does. That sounds like a problem with the emulator you're using, or one of your hardware drivers.

StriderNC

01-10-2008, 08:40 PM

Yes it is very annoying. Everyone says,"Oh just get an xrgb", because they are so easy to find right? I have been searching for one since the creation of this thread. Also, it is $300+, and I could have bought a 32" crt with that. Even if you track down an xrgb3, you need to update the firmware, and navigate through the japanese menus which I am sure I will fuck up. Thankfully, there is a site that walks you through it but I am sure the process will suck. The only other option is to buy that $1000+ upscaler, which is just absurd.

I asked if anyone had success with an xrgb3->1080p but no one seems to have used this combo before. I play marvel, 1-2 frames of lag is enough to kill you in that game. Marvel is serious.

i get hard to find stuff like this off yahoo auctions japan and use shopping mall express as the middle man. i see them up there all the time.

i have a XRGB2+ and have set that has 2 naitive resolutions... one is 480p so it's perfect for me. can't speak on the 3 though.

Biggzy

01-10-2008, 11:38 PM

Ok I've narrowed it down to a few tvs. What do you guys think?

1) Rear Projection Samsung 61"
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8293777&type=product&id=1173577986482

2) Plasma Samsung 50"
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8347201&type=product&id=1176506511625

3) LG LCD 52"
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8421139&type=product&id=1181832026046

Pablo_the_Mex

01-11-2008, 01:47 AM

i get hard to find stuff like this off yahoo auctions japan and use shopping mall express as the middle man. i see them up there all the time.

i have a XRGB2+ and have set that has 2 naitive resolutions... one is 480p so it's perfect for me. can't speak on the 3 though.

Word, I mentioned the yahoo japan auctions a few pages ago. The reason I went more the xrgb3 is because you can upgrade the firmware. I also hope that it would be the most compatible with 1080p.

Captain Ryu

01-11-2008, 05:42 PM

ejdge

01-12-2008, 01:57 PM

Do XRGBs work on CRT HDTVs? All I see in their descriptions are connections to VGA which my CRT does not have.

ShinjiGohan

01-12-2008, 02:36 PM

mine does not work on my Samsung slimfit CRT HD TV. However the double line scanner from DVDo works fine and does pretty much the same thing.

Biggzy

01-12-2008, 02:56 PM

ejdge

01-13-2008, 12:40 AM

I have a Samsung Slimfit as well.... those DVDo's however are way out of my budget. Any other options?

Humbag

01-13-2008, 02:30 AM

Ive got a Sony SXRD. Its NIiiiiiiiiice.

ShinjiGohan

01-13-2008, 06:02 AM

I have a Samsung Slimfit as well.... those DVDo's however are way out of my budget. Any other options?

I'm not talking about those new ones.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DVDO-i-scan-plus-V2-line-double-with-RGB-YPRPB-hdvi_W0QQitemZ150204274176QQihZ005QQcategoryZ61395 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

thats the item I have. I think I found it between 30-60 on ebay about 8 months ago.

poonage

01-13-2008, 06:20 AM

I'm not talking about those new ones.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DVDO-i-scan-plus-V2-line-double-with-RGB-YPRPB-hdvi_W0QQitemZ150204274176QQihZ005QQcategoryZ61395 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

thats the item I have. I think I found it between 30-60 on ebay about 8 months ago.

The iScan Plus has a processing delay so it's not eliminating lag. This is explained on DVDO's home page.

The only DVDO devices that eliminate lag are:

iScan VP20 or VP30 + ABT102d deinterlacing card
iScan VP50 Pro

ShinjiGohan

01-13-2008, 03:07 PM

The iScan Plus has a processing delay so it's not eliminating lag. This is explained on DVDO's home page.

The only DVDO devices that eliminate lag are:

iScan VP20 or VP30 + ABT102d deinterlacing card
iScan VP50 Pro

the processing delay is neligable. I'm getting out reversals and 1-2 frame links with relative ease. However he wanted something thats similar to XRGB which works with slimfits and DVDo iScan Plus fits this description, and seeing how XRGB also has processing delay I fail to see the problem.

ejdge

01-14-2008, 10:35 AM

What about this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/DVDO-iScan-Plus-Pure-Progressive-Display-Interface-NEW_W0QQitemZ140198636330QQihZ004QQcategoryZ61396Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohost ing

ffoxxttrott

01-14-2008, 05:32 PM

I play Marvel on this monitor:

http://www.westinghousedigital.com/details.aspx?itemnum=60

Through the composite video inputs. Is there most likely some lag going on? I'm not sure if it upscales, but it most likely does? The characters are stretched into a wide-screen looking-ness.

I'm trying to confirm if this actually lags before I buy an RF thing for my Dreamcast so I can play on my old TV.

kyored

01-18-2008, 07:18 AM

Would this tv be any good for gaming

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bravia-KDF-50E3000-1080p-Projection/dp/B000SSRC46

any thoughts? I'm looking for an LCD about 50 to 60 inches. What would u recommend.

KneelB4Me

01-18-2008, 07:55 AM

I wouldnt go anywhere near a rear projection set myself. I cant comment on the lag but.. Youd be much happier with a Plasma or LCD set I reckon.

Do Panasonic have their 1080p plasma sets out over there yet? I think they are pretty much the best bang for buck screen you can buy at the moment. Pure quality for a great price and I know 1st hand that they handle old console games extremely well, aswell as SD material.

ulovemikeroch

01-29-2008, 10:38 PM

Ok question, I know that when upscaling a non native resolution to a native one there is gonna be lag. But I'm gonna use a Ps3 on an HDTV and the ps3 supports everything thats out right now up to 1080P, so basically whatever the tv throws the ps3 can handle it. That means theres going to no lag right, because it's always gonna be native. The ps3 will just change the output resolution to match whatever the TV is on. But here is my question, say everything is native and all that computability stuff is fine. How does Response time factor in? I know that having a higher response time means lag and all that too, but since I'm at a native resolution shouldn't there be no lag? Or what? I know that having an upscaled image + big response time = death. But how about a native resolution combined with big response time?

Mr-Phelps

01-31-2008, 08:59 PM

I tried to search for a ces 2008 thread before I posted but couldn't find anything.:confused: I remember reading about Sharps new Gaming Lcd being at CES 08.
Sharp Aquos GP3 Gaming Tv (http://gear.ign.com/articles/844/844917p1.html)
Video (http://bleedingedge.blip.tv/file/590214/)

I was wondering if I could get some input about this TV. I'm not sure if a 37" inch will be coming out or not. I just don't want to be pulled into the hype.

Shin-RoTeNdO

02-01-2008, 02:41 AM

So I finally broke down and bought a new tv today.

Samsung 52" LCD.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8457216&type=product&id=1184369167080

Its coming in on Wednesday so I'm pretty excited.

Perfect choice! Hope you're enjoying it. I'm thinking of upgrading mine myself. I currently have a Samsung LCD HDTV 40" (don't know the exact model at this moment) 720p and want to get the 1080p 40" or perhaps a little bigger.

Dencore

02-03-2008, 07:01 PM

ulovemikeroch

02-03-2008, 09:53 PM

So are there any known HDTV's that don't contain lag (I know you said non exist but the OP was from '05)?

I assume not since many are still looking at what to get. So what would be the cheapest way for me to have Guilty Gear Accent Core on the Wii not lag when I buy my HDTV?
The wii supports up the 480P, which most if not all HDTV's can handle as it is the minimum native resolution. So any connection I guess is fine, but try to go for component/RGB/VGA connections. Component I think is the best analog quality.

vapulus

02-03-2008, 11:13 PM

The wii supports up the 480P, which most if not all HDTV's can handle as it is the minimum native resolution. So any connection I guess is fine, but try to go for component/RGB/VGA connections. Component I think is the best analog quality.

This is bad information. Just like has been said a million times, 480P will be supported but will NOT be native on many HDTV's. You will have lag. A small amount, yes, but you will have lag.

Dencore

02-03-2008, 11:59 PM

This is bad information. Just like has been said a million times, 480P will be supported but will NOT be native on many HDTV's. You will have lag. A small amount, yes, but you will have lag.

The thread previously stated that there are HDTV's that run 480p right?

JAMMAR

02-04-2008, 03:12 AM

So I finally broke down and bought a new tv today.

Samsung 52" LCD.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8457216&type=product&id=1184369167080

Its coming in on Wednesday so I'm pretty excited.

Wow, budget isn't a problem with you hahaha

Great purchase BTW, shoot I'd get it too if I was ballin' as well.

StriderNC

02-04-2008, 10:03 PM

there are TVs that support 480p and 1080i both naitively for sure. I own a sony CRT that does this. I combined it with an XRGB2 and the results are perfect. no lag, the best of two worlds and my games NEVER looked as good as they do now.

asianhitler

02-05-2008, 08:06 AM

I have Game Mode on my Samsung tv. Does it improves lag or make it worse?

Dencore

02-05-2008, 08:10 AM

^^^So no LCD's like that. :(

SaBrE

02-05-2008, 09:21 AM

Perfect choice! Hope you're enjoying it. I'm thinking of upgrading mine myself. I currently have a Samsung LCD HDTV 40" (don't know the exact model at this moment) 720p and want to get the 1080p 40" or perhaps a little bigger.

honestly, 1080p isnt a big deal til you go above 42". you dont even notice the difference til you go bigger. just an fyi if that makes a price difference =)

asianhitler: game mode speeds up the upscale processing to make the games more responsive. a lot of tv's have a game mode. and they do improve on the lag issue, but a lot of tv's game mode will not 100% eliminate lag, but there are a lot that do. its all hit and miss based on the brand, the model, and the video scaler they use.

vapulus: most new hdtv's can upscale 480p with 0ms lag now. so it really shouldnt be an issue. one of my budget tv's, an olevia 337H 37in LCD, HAS ZERO LAG with 480p games, confirmed, and same with my samsung 40' plasma(dont have the model on hand atm). i havent tried 480i games on the samsung, but my olevia does 480i games at about 6ms lag, which is under 1 frame of lag IIRC.

with all the new tv's and tech thats been hitting this past year, lag is starting to become a non issue. 480i is still iffy, which makes sense since it has to boost resolution and de-interlace the signal. i would imagine 480i games working a little better on 1080i native tv's since no de-interlacing needed. but then again, who would want a 1080i tv? =)

Dencore

02-05-2008, 09:43 AM

asianhitler: game mode speeds up the upscale processing to make the games more responsive. a lot of tv's have a game mode. and they do improve on the lag issue, but a lot of tv's game mode will not 100% eliminate lag, but there are a lot that do. its all hit and miss based on the brand, the model, and the video scaler they use.

What TV's have a game mode that 100% eliminate lag if I might ask?

SaBrE

02-05-2008, 09:48 AM

thats WAY too hard to answer. theres 98765736t5r782t64852627t6524324 different tv's out there. you cant expect someone to keep track of that lol

ShinAkuma204

02-05-2008, 10:31 AM

thats WAY too hard to answer. theres 98765736t5r782t64852627t6524324 different tv's out there. you cant expect someone to keep track of that lol

Maybe we need to make a list? Poster's who have such TV's could confirm what TV they have and if the game mode actually works.

SaBrE

02-05-2008, 10:43 AM

the problem there tho is there are a lot of people, even on this site, that make false claims on lag issues, and just assume, rather than getting facts.

but yes, that is one possible way to do it

Dencore

02-05-2008, 10:37 PM

the problem there tho is there are a lot of people, even on this site, that make false claims on lag issues, and just assume, rather than getting facts.

but yes, that is one possible way to do it

Yes people please list.

Anyway I think I could just test at the store I buy my HDTV as well.

King9999

02-06-2008, 11:59 AM

Nice thread, I'm shopping for a HDTV, so this info will be good to know.

ulovemikeroch

02-06-2008, 06:37 PM

SaBrE

02-06-2008, 08:34 PM

as long as you have the ps3 set to match the native resolution of the screen, you should be 100% fine.

vapulus

02-07-2008, 10:40 AM

vapulus: most new hdtv's can upscale 480p with 0ms lag now. so it really shouldnt be an issue. one of my budget tv's, an olevia 337H 37in LCD, HAS ZERO LAG with 480p games, confirmed, and same with my samsung 40' plasma(dont have the model on hand atm). i havent tried 480i games on the samsung, but my olevia does 480i games at about 6ms lag, which is under 1 frame of lag IIRC.

I'll be damned. :rofl:
I guess technology listened to the masses. Great to see something like that happening, especially when I wasn't paying a damn bit of attention. =)

I'll replace my 50" TV with a non-beastly-lag version one of these days.

simplygriff

02-07-2008, 11:42 AM

So which upscaler setting on the 60GB PS3 gives the least lag on PS2 games? Should it just be left to normal and use progressive on games that have the feature? Or set to off or what...
-G

Dencore

02-07-2008, 04:34 PM

as long as you have the ps3 set to match the native resolution of the screen, you should be 100% fine.

So if I'm playing a Third Strike on my PS3 and I have my PS3 set to 480p it should work fine? But what about my Wii with Guilty Gear?

poonage

02-10-2008, 01:47 PM

So if I'm playing a Third Strike on my PS3 and I have my PS3 set to 480p it should work fine? But what about my Wii with Guilty Gear?

You cannot play PS2 games on an HDTV with a PS3 without lag (unless it's a game with native 480p support like Guilty Gear). The PS3 won't let you.

PS3 games and PS2 games with 480p support (like Guilty Gear) on a PS3 are fine.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=753069

So which upscaler setting on the 60GB PS3 gives the least lag on PS2 games? Should it just be left to normal and use progressive on games that have the feature? Or set to off or what...
-G

If you turn progressive ON within the games that have that feature, the PS3 upscaler will be bypassed and you will not experience lag unless your HDTV lags on 480p material.

If you turn progressive OFF within the games and let the PS3 upscale the signal, it will lag no matter what because the PS3 buffers frames when deinterlacing. See the article above.

telly tel

02-16-2008, 06:29 PM

i have a hitachi rear projection hdtv. I cannot play marvel on it. I dont think it has a game mode. I can play guitar hero on it and the wii. But marvel is where i seriously see the lag. im confused...

But from reading this thread there still isnt a def fix for it

Dios <-X->

02-16-2008, 07:25 PM

What exactly does " game mode " do for my samsung lcd? i know it changed the picture quality to a certain setting, but , anything else?

im currently using it for my wii and ps2 both hooked up via component on my samsung 40inch lcd.

zerodotjander

02-20-2008, 10:18 AM

Amazon.com is selling the TV I own, Samsung 50" 1080p LED DLP for $1179.99 right now. With my PS2 hooked up through Component Cables and on Game Mode, it seems that 480i games have about 2 frames of lag. No lag through VGA. If 2 frames isn't bad for you, or you use a laptop or VGA converter, or you just want a great HDTV in general, this is an incredible steal.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-HLT5087SAX-Slim-Engine-1080p/dp/B000N50RLO

ulovemikeroch

02-20-2008, 04:31 PM

So how does response time exactly factor in?

SaBrE

02-20-2008, 05:20 PM

ulovemikeroch

02-20-2008, 11:49 PM

responce time thats advertised with lcd tv's basically deal with ghosting you see on the screen. like when you watch an action movie and objects are moving fast, will you see trailing images. the lower the ms response time, the less likely that will happen. most tv's in the past year or so dont even have noticeable ghosting issues anymore. as long as its 8ms response or lower, you are g2g
I know that, but I want to know what happens if it's greater then 8, I'm gonna guess lag right? So does that mean Native Resolution ps3 games, that don't need any upscaling and are perfect, will still lag because of the Higher response time? Which means that BCed & upscaled Ps2 games on a Ps3 will lag TREMENDOUSLY because of the response time and upscaling?

SaBrE

02-20-2008, 11:52 PM

response time ONLY has to do with image quality in regards to ghosting. it has NOTHING to do with lag

catchafire

02-21-2008, 05:20 PM

For thos of us on a budget, i'm thinking about this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5645641

zerodotjander also has a nice tv in the post on page 22...

Kayin

02-21-2008, 05:49 PM

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=7756623

You take a look at that one? It's pretty tempting, a little bigger and actually costs less.

ulovemikeroch

02-21-2008, 10:01 PM

Thanks Sabre.

Regarding the Magnavox tv's, they're NOT recommended. Even though you're on a budget, those TV's are not worth the grand you are gonna put down on them. For a good cheap TV, I very much recommend a Toshiba 1080P TV. Its quality is freaking great and they're lower priced then some of the bigger competitors like sony and shit. If anything I think Toshiba is up there along with Samsung, Sony and the likes. I'm planning on getting one soon, and I'm so god damn excited. I think tigerdirect and a couple sites like that Toshibas around that price range.

darthJones

03-15-2008, 07:47 PM

I've looked but I still haven't found the answer, so here is my question again - Can the XRGB-3 or any of the iScan models take in a 1920×1080 (16:9) signal and output a 1920×1200 (16:10) signal with black bars at the top and bottom through HDMI? I like using my consoles on my monitor but I hate the fact that video is always stretched vertically to fill in the space...

kyored

03-16-2008, 06:52 AM

For thos of us on a budget, i'm thinking about this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5645641

zerodotjander also has a nice tv in the post on page 22...

Visio's r better and are about the same price

bobino

03-16-2008, 09:12 PM

can anyone recommend a good lcd tv thats around 19-22" thats reasonably priced to use for fighting games and as a comp monitor...thx

Legend II

04-08-2008, 07:44 AM

BUMP! Very good info, as I'm next to buy a new TV soon.

Someone should sticky this thread.

Thanks!

TingBoy

04-08-2008, 05:29 PM

It's already in the essential thread, which is stickied....

Pablo_the_Mex

04-08-2008, 05:31 PM

Can we un-ban Fubarduck? Why is he even banned? He is full of good info.

NeoChaosX

04-25-2008, 03:34 AM

Going to second what Pablo's asking. Why did fubarduck get banned, and where is he if he isn't?

Second question - on the FAQ it mentions this:
The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.
I'm in this situation where I need a VGA to component transcoder, since I have a Dreamcast and my Sharp LCD doesn't have a VGA port. However, what fubarduck didn't mention in his FAQ is how much a transcoder would affect the lag situation. For those of you that have used the 9A60 or other similar products, is there any input lag introduced by these devices? Or does it not affect the signal at all?

SaBrE

04-25-2008, 07:37 AM

neochaos: your tv have a DVI input instead? if so, go spend 2 bucks on a vga>dvi adapter. that should work

ShinjiGohan

04-25-2008, 11:24 AM

Going to second what Pablo's asking. Why did fubarduck get banned, and where is he if he isn't?

Back a few years ago at Evo East he attended and started running his mouth on the fact that they were using LCD TVs at the time when their vender didn't pull through on the old CRT TVs. and started telling everyone to not goto Evo East and if you're there to leave.

Obviously wizard was pissed because it was casual day that he was saying this and as soon as they realized in some casual matches that the lag was unacceptable they drove out to a Walmart 20 some miles away at 3am to purchase 20 SD CRT TVs and didn't get back until 6am friday morning, the day of the tournament and all of the staff was running on 4 or less hours of sleep.

As a result Wiz banned him from Evo East as well as these forums.

centennial

04-25-2008, 11:41 AM

Sooo, wizard banned fubarduck for pointing out a problem?

MrWizard

04-25-2008, 12:06 PM

telling people to leave the event, and to boycott it when the event hasnt even started for a problem that was fixed before gametime, is completely unacceptable.

Pablo_the_Mex

04-25-2008, 12:08 PM

telling people to leave the event, and to boycott it when the event hasnt even started for a problem that was fixed before gametime, is completely unacceptable.

Fair enough. Maybe he took HDTVs a little too seriously.

NeoChaosX

04-25-2008, 05:53 PM

Oh, I see. Fair enough.
neochaos: your tv have a DVI input instead? if so, go spend 2 bucks on a vga>dvi adapter. that should work
Nope. All this Aquos has in terms of HD inputs are component and HDMI, and I have no desire to do VGA -> DVI -> HDMI. That's why I'm asking if any of the VGA -> component products introduce any lag.

SaBrE

04-25-2008, 06:17 PM

aquos tv's come with out a vga or dvi? thats nuts.

not really sure what your possible options are then =/ converters vary in lag. some may not lag at all, some may lag horribly. really hard to say

JAMMAR

04-25-2008, 09:13 PM

Does component lag more than HDMI in terms of performance? Right now I'm using component 1080p on my old 360 and I'm contemplating whether to trade it in for an HDMI version.

ulovemikeroch

04-25-2008, 09:50 PM

aquos tv's come with out a vga or dvi? thats nuts.

not really sure what your possible options are then =/ converters vary in lag. some may not lag at all, some may lag horribly. really hard to say
Apparently Some do and some don't, it depends on the series of models. Like the budget series might not have it, which is still ridiculous.

Kayin

04-25-2008, 10:30 PM

Does component lag more than HDMI in terms of performance? Right now I'm using component 1080p on my old 360 and I'm contemplating whether to trade it in for an HDMI version.

Component is technically only capable of up to 1080i.

Wether it lags or not, I don't know. But someone might know if 1080i -> 1080p has any lag.

ShinjiGohan

04-25-2008, 11:00 PM

its capable of carrying the 1080p signal, small problems arise at the RCA type connectors (BNC connectors would have no problem from what I hear). However the AACS (SP?) wants to limit all possible component use as it doesn't have all of the copyright protection security that HDMI has.

The only possible additional lag that you might face is the conversion from the analog signal on the component to digital on the TV. That would also introduce some minor video degradation as the TV has to convert an infinite signal to 1s and 0s

desistyle3

04-27-2008, 09:26 PM

A.C

04-27-2008, 10:07 PM

no lag due to scaling... but there might very well be lag due to image processing (colors, contrast, etc). if the set has a "game mode" it disables all the trickery that samsung is notorious for implementing. some older sammy's lack this feature however... in which case you might have to live with the (hopefully minor) lag.

ulovemikeroch

04-27-2008, 10:21 PM

Something I don't understand here. My roommate has a older Samsung DLP and I've noticed lag when playing the xbox 360 in 720p.

But the first post by fubarduck says there is no lag with a samsung dlp..xbox360 in 720p....

what gives?

You sure it's 720? Give more details on the connection.

I have a theory question. Composite can't handle HDsngles or anything over 480i. Now if I hooked up a Ps3 to an HDTV via Composite, there would still be lag right?

RoboKrikit

04-27-2008, 11:10 PM

Even in 'Game Mode' at native resolution plenty of displays lag. There are no concrete lag-avoidance rules to follow when speccing out a display, only guidelines to start with. Either test it thoroughly yourself before buying it, or expect the possibility of lag. The scaler can lag, the input processing (even for just certain inputs) can lag, the pretty-it-up image processing can lag, anything can lag. All bets are off until a display is fully tested, even different models of the same brand in the same lineup.

Kayin

04-27-2008, 11:22 PM

Random question, will 480p work on a 1080i TV?

I ask because one signal is progressive and the other is interlaced, and playing in 480i on a 1080i would be awful.

infoseeker

04-28-2008, 03:23 PM

I surrendered to teh lag a long time ago. It says jump - I say how high?

Vynce

04-28-2008, 03:32 PM

Random question, will 480p work on a 1080i TV?

I ask because one signal is progressive and the other is interlaced, and playing in 480i on a 1080i would be awful.

I might be mistaken here, but I think virtually any tv that supports 1080i will also display 480p.

04-29-2008, 01:11 AM

I surrendered to teh lag a long time ago. It says jump - I press up, and then wait several seconds before my character actually jumps.
Fixed.

Sorry to ask such a retarded question, but if I get an XRGB-3 and use it with a 1080p LCD (let's say non-Samsung), my odds are pretty good at eliminating lag, right? From what I've gathered it won't really display stuff at its optimum resolution and will stick to 480p(?), but will run pretty smoothly...?

ShinMagus

04-29-2008, 05:06 AM

No, unlike the XRGB-2, the XRGB-3 has a frame buffer and isn't targeted at lag-eliminating gamers. :(

05-01-2008, 12:44 PM

The XRGB-3 is a quality product, but the way it functions is much different from the XRGB-2+. The XRGB-3 was designed with a frame buffer system which has a built in lag when using its normal function mode, which outputs at 1024x768, 1280x1024, or 1600x1200. Unfortunately, the XRGB-3 cannot output to these resolutions without lag whether it outputs VGA or DVI.

480i material suffers approximately 80-100ms of lag, while 480p material suffers approximately 10-20ms of lag.

Fortunately, the XRGB-3 has a downloadable firmware update from Micomsoft's home page (in Japanese) called "Line Doubler and Transcoder mode". This mode does NOT lag like the normal mode, but only outputs in 640x480 (480p) and only via VGA (not DVI). Many of the XRGB-3's special features such as freeze-frame and PIP also become unusable.

The XRGB-3 in this mode functions as follows:

- 480i signals are line doubled and displayed as 480p
- 480p signals are accepted and displayed as 480p
- 1080i/720p signals are accepted and displayed as 1080i/720p

So, it's basically exactly like the XRGB-2+ except with 480p and HD signal passthrough support. Keep in mind that 1080p passthrough is not supported.
http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/index.php?showtopic=4536

So I'm guessing XRGB3 works with 720p/1080i, but there's nothing that works for 1080p?

desistyle3

05-01-2008, 09:38 PM

You sure it's 720? Give more details on the connection.

I have a theory question. Composite can't handle HDsngles or anything over 480i. Now if I hooked up a Ps3 to an HDTV via Composite, there would still be lag right?

I'm running the xbox 360 to the samsung DLP with a component connection in 720p.

NeoChaosX

05-01-2008, 10:57 PM

What's the native resolution of the Samsung?

Kayin

05-01-2008, 11:04 PM

Random question, will 480p work on a 1080i TV?

I ask because one signal is progressive and the other is interlaced, and playing in 480i on a 1080i would be awful.

Can anyone who's tested this help me out here?

ShinjiGohan

05-02-2008, 12:30 AM

sire it'll work, it'll just upscale the resolution to be 1080i.

desistyle3

05-02-2008, 09:25 AM

What's the native resolution of the Samsung?

Great question..i don't know. I'm guessing either 720p or 1080i (I tried both of these resolutions and still had lag). There is also no 'game mode' on the unit.

I had it hooked up through component. I'm wondering if getting hdmi will solve the problem?

Darkside 937

05-06-2008, 07:55 PM

After reading this thread, I still find myself confused about the whole problem.

This is my situation:

I own a 40" Samsung HDTV (click here for specs) (http://electronics.pricegrabber.com/plasma-lcd-televisions/m/47798695/details/st=product_tab/). I haven't noticed any lag on my Xbox or 360 games, but I just got a PS2 two weeks ago, and have noticed a very slight lag while playing fighting games (just enough to throw off my FRCs and combo timings in Guilty Gear :annoy:). The PS2 is currently hooked up via component cables, and Game Mode is enabled on the TV.

To fix this, I need a VGA converter box, right? I've looked at a few, but they are either sold out everywhere (like the XRGB-2+), or insanely expensive (I saw a few models that were, like, two grand. That's more than I paid for my TV :wow:).

This is a problem, since I've just started getting into Guilty Gear competitively, and it's making it so I can't even practice when I'm at home.

Can anyone recommend me a good VGA box that will fix the problem that is $250 or less?

poonage

05-07-2008, 12:48 PM

dude who didn't read thread

Hi dude who didn't read thread,

You can enable Progressive Scan in Guilty Gear by holding the X and Triangle buttons while the game is starting up. This will cause Guilty Gear to display in 480p, which will drastically reduce or possibly completely eliminate your lag issue.

Regards,
Person who has already posted answer.

Sp00ky

05-07-2008, 01:20 PM

If it matters on some sets component input still lags even in progressive mode (like mine ).

If this occurs you may want to check if your set has any filters (things the set does to improve quality) as these cause lag.

If you cannot turn the filters off or they don't exist, you can try a VGA box since many (most?) sets don't apply filters to VGA. Your mileage may vary.

Darkside 937

05-07-2008, 03:31 PM

dude who didn't read my post

Hi dude who didn't read my post, or assumed I was only specifically having the problem with Guilty Gear.

Guilty Gear is not the only game I own for PS2, so a game specific workaround doesn't help me when playing 99% of the games in my PS2 collection. Please try again, and this time maybe you could, oh, I don't know... answer the simple question I asked instead of not only making assumptions, but also an ass out of yourself.

Regards,
Person who hates people that act like typing a couple of sentences to help somebody out is the worst possible thing they could ever be asked to do.

Pablo_the_Mex

05-07-2008, 03:37 PM

Hi dude who didn't read my post, or assumed I was only specifically having the problem with Guilty Gear.

Guilty Gear is not the only game I own for PS2, so a game specific workaround doesn't help me when playing 99% of the games in my PS2 collection. Please try again, and this time maybe you could, oh, I don't know... answer the simple question I asked instead of not only making assumptions, but also an ass out of yourself.

Regards,
Person who hates people that act like typing a couple of sentences to help somebody out is the worst possible thing they could ever be asked to do.

Stupid nigga read the goddamn thread. Yo shit is gonna lag.

Darkside 937

05-09-2008, 06:44 PM

^Next time I have the free time to read through 595 posts, I'll get right on that, since searching "HDTV" and "lag" will probably bring up every post in the entire thread.

Or you could take FIVE SECONDS and ANSWER THE QUESTION.

05-09-2008, 08:03 PM

deadfrog

05-09-2008, 08:07 PM

Would anyone be able to provide a link to a video of the fabled Guitar Hero lag test? I've read a few descriptions and I still don't quite understand what it is.

ShinjiGohan

05-09-2008, 11:27 PM

ok what it is is like DDR.

you have a circle outline at the bottom of the screen, and 11 times a pink circle will come down and you have to time your strumming (up or up on the directional pad) when it goes on it. From those 11 tries it calculates the average time that you are off in miliseconds.

16 miliseconds is 1 frame in most fighting games. so if you're getting 45 ms, then you're approximately lagging by 3 frames.

deadfrog

05-10-2008, 02:38 AM

Thanks a ton for the answer, man. :smile:

I have a pretty decent understanding of the latency and all, I just had no clue what the test was! Every console game should include this feature nowadays.

05-10-2008, 08:47 AM

Or, people should make HDTVs with a mode where you can play without god damn display lag.

Dr.Chaos

05-21-2008, 05:30 PM

Glad I Found This. I knew my mvc2 was lagging, couldn't even do air combos. VGA cable saved me :woot:

desistyle3

05-22-2008, 01:18 PM

Glad I Found This. I knew my mvc2 was lagging, couldn't even do air combos. VGA cable saved me :woot:

I had the same issue with my roommate's samsung DLP. Got a VGA cable for my 360 and now its fine. Thank god for VGA!:wgrin:

Pablo_the_Mex

05-22-2008, 03:56 PM

Has there been a drop in HDTV prices? I remember looking at some 60" samsungs a few months ago that went for $3700+. I started looking again and you can cop a 61" for around $2k. Seems like I am gonna go with one of those fairly soon.

Darkside 937

05-26-2008, 01:03 PM

Try re-reading the first post and then saying specifically what you're confused about or what your question is. As someone who knows nothing about HDTVs this whole thing is confusing as hell to me, but you can't be too surprised if people roll their eyes at you for asking a question in a thread where the topic has already been covered.

Okay, I'll try this again.

I have a Samsung LCD HDTV. It has a native resolution of 720p, and supports everything except 1080p. I have tried turning on Game Mode and enabling progressive scan (480p) while playing GGAC on my PS2, and while this helps with the lag, it does not fix it entirely.

Since all the XRGB-2+ and XRGB-3 do is force the games to display in 480p, would it be pointless to purchase these since games that display in 480p (like GGAC) still lag on my TV? Is there ANYTHING that will resolve the lag (besides the DVDO iScan, which is way, way out of my price range)?

This shit is so frustrating. I'm really close to just saying fuck it and buying an SDTV.

DevilsFang

05-26-2008, 06:31 PM

Hey guys,

Anyone try one of these? http://www.hdboxpro.com/eng/public.htm

There is a short write up on the shmups forums here:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=20122

Not a lot of info there, I was hoping someone here had tried one.

At any rate, I ordered one, so in about two weeks I'll be able to test it and post some results.

05-26-2008, 07:36 PM

Kind of weak that it's VGA and component only, but I guess most people want to use it for PS2 and newer anyway, and if you use a DC you could just use the VGA input. The people on the forum seem to be pretty positive about it.

I wonder if it works OK with 720p? The website mentions 1080p, I assume it'd work OK for both...
Since all the XRGB-2+ and XRGB-3 do is force the games to display in 480p, would it be pointless to purchase these since games that display in 480p (like GGAC) still lag on my TV? Is there ANYTHING that will resolve the lag (besides the DVDO iScan, which is way, way out of my price range)?

Like I said, I don't know anything about HDTVs, but what model TV do you have? Maybe someone with one of the XRGBs or someone with GG can comment, on whether or not that's natural, or GG will still have a very slight lag when running in enhanced mode.

I kind of understand you on the frustration though...I was thinking about getting my first HDTV when I move into a new apartment in hopefully a month or two...but honestly this whole gaming lag thing has put me off, since I don't really watch enough TV to justify getting an HDTV that I can't also game on.

ShinjiGohan

05-26-2008, 10:01 PM

just to mention my slimfit samsung HDTV died on me last night. :(

Luckily it's still under warranty that I paid nothing for lol. So eventually samsung will send some of their certified service techs out and take a look at it. Most likely the power supply is shot. However due to the problems with these slimfits they may just replace my TV for another model.

What I don't know is if I get any input as to what TV I should get should they replace it. But if they do hopefully it won't be as lagy as this slimfit. Though it isn't bad, it is at least 3-4 frames on 480i material and my XRGB2+ doesn't work with it :(

ShinMagus

05-27-2008, 01:06 AM

Hmmm... How did you conclude it's at least 3-4 frames, ShinjiGohan?

Sp00ky

05-27-2008, 04:35 AM

Since all the XRGB-2+ and XRGB-3 do is force the games to display in 480p, would it be pointless to purchase these since games that display in 480p (like GGAC) still lag on my TV?

The thing is the xrgb will make your stuff run on the vga port of your tv. Some tvs lag on component input yet not VGA. (Lots of manufacturers don't apply video filters to the vga port)

ShinjiGohan

05-27-2008, 09:46 AM

Hmmm... How did you conclude it's at least 3-4 frames, ShinjiGohan?

between GH2 lag test giving me fairly consistently gave me between 60-45 ms, and almost always missing my 2-3 frame links in SFEX3 pretty much verifies the GH2 findings.

06-07-2008, 11:03 PM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QYD8LI
I don't know if there's a generic HDTV thread, any thoughts on this one?

SNAAAAKE

06-08-2008, 12:58 AM

Hey guys,

Anyone try one of these? http://www.hdboxpro.com/eng/public.htm

There is a short write up on the shmups forums here:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=20122

its an upscan converter AND "true" vga box like x2vga. Id say go ahead and order one..looks pretty good to me.

ShinMagus

06-08-2008, 08:35 AM

However, it's still unknown whether it introduces frame lag possibly due to the use of a buffer, isn't it? (yeah, I know the ad says "immediately"...)

06-09-2008, 09:21 AM

However, it's still unknown whether it introduces frame lag possibly due to the use of a buffer, isn't it? (yeah, I know the ad says "immediately"...)

True, but it seems like those guys play scrolling vertical shooters, which are pretty time-sensitive. I might order one of those things next week and give it a shot.

R-Chie

06-10-2008, 08:01 PM

I need advice on what adapter to get to play Dreamcasr and/or PS2 for an HDTV. Yes, I have read the first post but i need some more recent advice. I looked up on getting a PS2 S-cable and a VGA adapter from ebay. Please give strongly recommended adapters. I would really appreciate the help.

Here is the Dreamcast VGA adapter and the PS2 S-cable I am considering:
VGA Adapter (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sega-Dreamcast-VGA-Adapter-Adaptor-DCVGA-S-Video-NEW_W0QQitemZ380034799964QQihZ025QQcategoryZ139969 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
PS2 S-Cable (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-PS2-PS3-LCD-HDTV-COMPONENT-CABLE-FOR-PS2-PS3_W0QQitemZ170227577075QQihZ007QQcategoryZ139969 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

DevilsFang

06-10-2008, 08:39 PM

DevilsFang

06-10-2008, 08:47 PM

True, but it seems like those guys play scrolling vertical shooters, which are pretty time-sensitive. I might order one of those things next week and give it a shot.

I'm currently working on a review of the HD Box Pro. So far I have only tested it on a CRT monitor. I want to do some tests on a LCD and a comparison with the XRGB.

The first part of my review is pretty much done, and it is quite lengthy. (over two pages) If all goes well I want to finish up the first part and post it this weekend.

LCD and XRGB parts will follow later.

06-11-2008, 12:35 PM

What's the word so far?

DevilsFang

06-14-2008, 03:30 PM

HD Box Pro: The Quick and Dirty

Good

Zero lag that I could detect.
Crystal clear picture.
Supports many different resolutions.
Switches between progressive and interlaced automatically.
Fair amount of options in menu.
Unit built fairly well.
Cheap and available.
Seller uses PayPal.

Bad

Slight background jumping during games with fast vertical scrolling. (i.e. some shooters/Guitar Hero)
Cannot de-interlace fast enough for some effects and produces black lines on screen (i.e. screen shake in KOFXI and NGBC) launching in progressive mode solves this.
Only supports component input.
No size and position options.
Power supply cheaply made.
Two week wait for shipping.
XRGB is better.

Overall

Not perfect, but a good unit for the price. The screen shake problem in KOFXI and NGBC are the only problems that are easy to see. You really have to be looking for faults to see the others. The vertical scrolling problem does not seem to effect game play even in shooters/Guitar Hero, it is just a little annoying. (To me anyway)

ShinMagus

06-14-2008, 09:45 PM

"Seller uses PayPal", but not if the method of payment used on PayPal is credit card. :( This really really sucks.

DevilsFang

06-15-2008, 03:43 AM

"Seller uses PayPal", but not if the method of payment used on PayPal is credit card. :( This really really sucks.

On the screen where it asks you to log into your Paypal account there is a sentence on the left of the screen that says "If you do not have a PayPal account and want to pay with a credit card or bank transfer continue. Click there, it still uses PayPay checkout. :wgrin:

jpnn80

06-15-2008, 06:00 AM

fubarduck guide v2.0 in 1st post is outdated, here is the the 2.6 : http://www.fubarduck.com/hdtv-lag-faq/

And another good news about latest firmware for XRGB-3:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-16124-Micomsoft+updates+its+XRGB-3+for+wide+display.html

ShinMagus

06-15-2008, 01:42 PM

Cool, DevilsFang. :D I'll check it out. ^^

Update: "The email address or credit card has already been added to a PayPal account. If you have already opened a PayPal account, enter your email address and password into PayPal Checkout and click Log In. Otherwise, enter a different email address or credit card number to complete your purchase.". argh³

Hmmm. Does the XRGB-3 still lag unless you use that bufferless option that only outputs 480p?

cwrenlmi@gmail.com

06-15-2008, 02:09 PM

I hope this gets answered. I am looking for an LCD monitor to replace the 22" CRT In my arcade machine. Right now there is a ps2 and a PC. Running to a video switcher that inputs VGA from the PC & component from the ps2 & outputs VGA. My plan is to replace the ps2 with my 60g ps3 and hook it up with hdmi. Then I will switch the PC hookup to DVI. I'm going to look for a screen probably a PC monitor that has VGA, HDMI, & DVI. Is my plan the best option to avoid lag? I know I'll have the ps3 lag when I run ps2 games, but should all my mame games andthe new streetfighter stuff run smooth? Any sugestions let me know.

poonage

06-17-2008, 12:35 PM

telling people to leave the event, and to boycott it when the event hasnt even started for a problem that was fixed before gametime, is completely unacceptable.

You're leaving out the part where the players were told that there wasn't any lag, and that the events were going to be held on those HDTVs.

Then I boycotted, then you banned me.

THEN the issue was addressed (after banning).

If the reason you banned me was because I didn't approach you guys first (that's what I was told at the event), then say so, but don't distort the facts. That is the true timeline of events, and I'm sorry we still don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but I suppose we can agree to disagree. I still don't think the HDTVs would have been replaced had I not spoken up.

What's done is done and I still support Evo 100% and appreciate all that has been given to the community.

ShinjiGohan

06-28-2008, 02:28 AM

not entirely, IIRC, when they got there they found out that it was the LCD HD sets there not the SD CRT set sets that they wanted. so they performed a small test to see if it had lagged (james chen doing some combos) to which he felt as though there wasn't any lag. thus the staff then made the announcement that there was no lag and that it'd be held on those tvs. then when people started practicing like yourself in casuals, you brought up the issue of lag I guess not to them directly. and started boycotting the event. they then banned you. during which more people noticed the lag and notified the staff in a nicer manner and they looked into it and fixed the problem by driving 20 miles to a 24 hour walmart and purchased 20+ SD Tvs for the event.

but thats all in the past.

anyway samsung is being a bitch and still won't honor the warrenty. so I've decided to purchase a LCD computer monitor. right now I'm looking at the viewsonic VX2835wm. it accepts composite, s-video, component, hdmi and VGA (15pin d-sub). reviews have been good, nice and bright (works well to offset the PS3 to the jpac which darkens the image :( ), 3ms of response time so not much ghosting and hopefully not much lag. and since it a computer monitor there is less emphases on image quality so the lag shouldn't be as bad. its 28" so its pretty large so when I get it I'll give a brief review with GH2 lag timings. but most of all it accepts SoG so HDTV Player software works on it and can play any PS2 game on it at any computer resolution I give it.
one thing to note on the faq though is that HD TVs can still lag even at the native signal. it really all depends on how much other post processing, filters and image correction algorithms they have going on outside of the deinterlacing and scaling. and that varies from TV series to TV series.

ShinjiGohan

06-30-2008, 11:54 PM

got the computer monitor today and I tried guitar hero 2, tried it 4 times, 0, 21, 12, 0. Played some EX3 and had no problems timing my 2 and 3 frame links. then some 3s against my brother and he didn't feel any lag either (just had some problem adjusting to the speed of the PS2 3s from the arcade board that he was getting used to).

composite input did seem a tad slow though, like the movement wasn't as fast as it should be, but s-video, component, vga and hdmi worked like a charm.

StriderNC

07-01-2008, 07:19 AM

shut up

PAYBACK

07-03-2008, 06:15 AM

For those whose tvs don't have a vga input, will using a Dreamcast VGA cable in conjunction with the following do the trick?

http://cgi.ebay.com/25ft-Translucent-Premium-VGA-to-RCA-Component-Cable-M-M_W0QQitemZ220252052181QQihZ012QQcategoryZ41999QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

NeoChaosX

07-03-2008, 10:20 AM

Nope. Here's why, right on the description of that product:

NOTE: Your display system must support component video (Y, Pr, Pb) signal output function in order for the image to display properly. Please consult with your VGA card's user manual for more information.

The DC VGA box only outputs an RGB signal, so you're going to need a VGA-to-component signal converter as well.

lw3

07-03-2008, 11:34 AM

1 question. the samsung slimfit 27 inch has a sdtv version and an hdtv version. im assuming that the sdtv version will not have any lag when playing fighters? am i correct or do both tvs have a lag problem.

ShinjiGohan

07-03-2008, 12:10 PM

the HD verison definitely lags. the SD, well I played some tournament games at MWC on a samsung slimfit 20 SDTV and had no lag, so I'm fairly sure that the 27" version won't lag as well.

HD version lagged about 3 frames.

Gwyrgyn Blood

07-03-2008, 12:39 PM

I got word that apparently the Samsung LG A650 line of HDTVs have an HDMI input port specifically to bypass any processing and have no lag for an HD signal. So if you are in the market for a good HDTV to play HD games on, it's probably a good bet.

Here's the 46" model for example:
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LN46A650-46-Inch-1080p-120Hz/dp/B001413D94/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1215114134&sr=1-1

Celtics777

07-03-2008, 01:08 PM

I'm looking to play DC games on my newly purchased HDTV but have been hearing about the lag issues plaguing hdtvs
Which of the following would be a better buy and how would i get it working if my tv doesn't have a VGA input

VGA BOX (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sega-Dreamcast-VGA-Box-with-S-video-and-RCA-outputs_W0QQitemZ200235154346QQihZ010QQcategoryZ13 9969QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

VGA Cable (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sega-Dreamcast-VGA-Cable_W0QQitemZ200235154347QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1399 69QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

lw3

07-03-2008, 03:55 PM

i have another queston shinji. will the picture improve if i were to play ps2 games that dont support progressive scan with component inputs. will that cause lag?

ShinjiGohan

07-03-2008, 05:52 PM

component > s-video > composite> radio frequency for image quality

that won't change regardless of the tv being sd or hd

for lag, the hd will lag with any input. just much less on 480p than 480i regardless of the cable used

ShinMagus

07-05-2008, 09:49 AM

07-05-2008, 11:21 AM

What are my options for Composite/S-Video to Component? I don't know that other systems other than PS2 and newer, so if I wanted to play older stuff on an HDTV, is there any way to do so without tracking down an XRGB-2 or whatever?

KnightWarrior

07-05-2008, 01:12 PM

What's the best & cheap HDTV for playing old RF system's like the Atari 2600

ShinjiGohan

07-05-2008, 02:46 PM

ShinjiGohan, would you please cite some SFEX3 links you recommend for testing lag? My HD Box Pro should arrive in the near future (I hope, the mail guys are on strike... o_o') and I'll connect my PS2 to my LCD monitor (22'', 1680x1050 - Samsung 2232BW).

Thanks.

sure
easiest one
Ken or Ryu.

c.mp, c.mk

you have a 2 frame window to get that.

all momentaries are 3 frame input windows.

last one would be Ace s.hp, c.lk (I haven't tested it with a program pad to see how tight it is, but I'm guessing its a 1 frame link since I have more trouble timing that than just about every other 2 frame link in the game).

but I'd probably start off seeing if you can perform jumpin attacks. on my slimfit which was lagging about 3 frames, if I time a jumpin attack normally, it'd come out too late and would either whiff in the air (landed before the active frames started) or I'd land and do a standing attack.

TS I'm not sure what you're asking for.

Whether the input is composite, s-video, component, if its signal is 240p or 480 from the source, it won't make a bit of difference which cable is being used to transmit the signal (in terms of lag, video quality is another story). but if you're looking to upscale a 480i ps2 game you will need an upscaler or HDTV Player (ps2 software that forces the ps2 to output in either vga or hd resolutions).

for older systems you might be able to hack the board on the console and wire up your own component connectors but that'd still be 240p or 480i so you would still need to upscale the image somehow and you'd need some external device to do that.

knightwarrior, for those old consoles that don't even have composite you'll probably need a TV tuner that outputs in vga/hd resolutions. personally I'm using a k-world 1920 gamer ex tuner (or something like that). I use that to output my cable input for television on a vga cable to my computer monitor. though I'm not sure how much that lags as I haven't tried connecting an old console via rf input... through it. but that might be a better solution than hoping to find an HD TV that doesn't lag.

07-05-2008, 05:18 PM

TS I'm not sure what you're asking for.

Whether the input is composite, s-video, component, if its signal is 240p or 480 from the source, it won't make a bit of difference which cable is being used to transmit the signal (in terms of lag, video quality is another story). but if you're looking to upscale a 480i ps2 game you will need an upscaler or HDTV Player (ps2 software that forces the ps2 to output in either vga or hd resolutions).

for older systems you might be able to hack the board on the console and wire up your own component connectors but that'd still be 240p or 480i so you would still need to upscale the image somehow and you'd need some external device to do that.

Ah, I should have explained better. I ordered one of those HD Box things that only takes in component and puts out VGA. It hasn't arrived yet, but I was hoping that if I could find something with a composite/S-Video/RF input :r: component output, I could use that to play the older consoles on an HDTV with no/minimal lag.

Thanks for answering though.

ShinjiGohan

07-05-2008, 06:47 PM

since the signal is so different it sadly isn't as simple as an s-video to composite adapter, or vga to component.

a quick search fielded this
http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?cat=CATV&subcat=&prodclass=MEDIACON&baseitem=DV5000&search=0&off=0&showreturn=0

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3941014&Sku=A85-1074&SRCCODE=SHOPPINGDF&CMP=OTC-SHOPPING

07-06-2008, 09:11 AM

Thanks again. I'll do some looking around...

erikstanton

07-07-2008, 10:39 PM

hey guys. i THINK i remember reading this thread a few days ago about an HDTV that doesnt lag at all with games that run in 480i. am i kidding myself or does this exist? i swear i thought i saw it in here the other day :(

cwrenlmi@gmail.com

07-08-2008, 07:25 AM

your looking for an LCD monitor that has 1:1 pixel maping and 0 lag aslong as you have an he source, look at the benq v2400w.

erikstanton

07-10-2008, 01:07 PM

damnit. i have this huge ass fucking mitsubishi widescreen tv. got it like 4 years ago. 0 ms on 480i and 480p. why cant any new tvs be like thissss :(

Pablo_the_Mex

07-10-2008, 01:14 PM

damnit. i have this huge ass fucking mitsubishi widescreen tv. got it like 4 years ago. 0 ms on 480i and 480p. why cant any new tvs be like thissss :(

Cause it's old! My parents have a tv like that, I would take it but it is just way too damn big for my place.

erikstanton

07-10-2008, 01:19 PM

Cause it's old! My parents have a tv like that, I would take it but it is just way too damn big for my place.

haha yeah. i wanna get rid of it because its so big, but 0 frames of lag treats me so well. i tried out my moms 20 something inch samsung lcd and the lag was no good.

beatsofdevil

07-10-2008, 01:59 PM

So I just got a 40 inch Samsung LCD. Marvel lags so far...but I put it on game mode and will test it. hopefully I won't need to by that other stuff.

for the VGA Cable for DC, there's a VGA box that goes to S-Video I think, would that work if I don't have a VGA port?

Sp00ky

07-10-2008, 03:32 PM

beatsofdevil

07-11-2008, 09:40 AM

but I already have this tv... :(

I'll just get a VGA cord. but if I need one for my ps2 also...the DC would work with that too, correct?

the tv also doesn't have a VGA input, doh! and pc input isn't the same I'm guessing

Sp00ky

07-11-2008, 10:20 AM

Pc input might be it although thats a weird name for it.

it should look like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/VGA_port.jpg/800px-VGA_port.jpg

If you just got the tv i would SERIOUSLY consider taking it back if it does not have a vga port.

The DC vga thing will not work with ps2.

You need either an xrgb or another upscan converter such as the new HD Box Pro.

beatsofdevil

07-11-2008, 10:32 AM

StriderNC

07-11-2008, 10:53 AM

Ah, I should have explained better. I ordered one of those HD Box things that only takes in component and puts out VGA. It hasn't arrived yet, but I was hoping that if I could find something with a composite/S-Video/RF input component output, I could use that to play the older consoles on an HDTV with no/minimal lag.

it'd be better to get a scart cable for those older systems (RGB) and from there get a RGB/scart to component converter. way better picture.

ShinjiGohan

07-11-2008, 11:44 AM

yeah, it has that...but calls it PC input.

yeah, I know the DC VGA cable won't work with PS2...but since I need to fix lag for both my ps2 and dc, I should just get the regular one I'd use with the PS2 and it should work with the DC too.

thanks, but I love the tv already, I can't go back now! but I don't think I need to with Game mode and all I need now is a VGA converter thingy

if you can find the xploder HDTV player, you could use that to output via vga cable (at vga signals).

as long as your TV/monitor can sync on green it will work. the HDTV player makes your ps2 output in either vga settings or hd def settings. not compatable with all games (guitar hero 2 and 3s portion of the SFAC disk for example).

beatsofdevil

07-11-2008, 12:01 PM

huh? sync on green?

there's no way to fix lag for GH2 and 3s ?

ShinjiGohan

07-11-2008, 11:13 PM

over the years monitors and tvs have used different technologies to sync the image. from composite sync, to separate, sync on green, ttl etc... sync on green is something that sony uses a lot but can be found on newer monitors and presumibly televisions. though since we're both from chicago I can let you test your tv with my ps2 vga cable and the software.

though sadly it won't work for 3s or gh2 (you just get a black screen after you select 3s, and GH2 allows you to get as far as to ask if you have a memory card in and if you want to use it, but after that it just blacks out, no sound no picture). best luck I've had with those two was xrgb2+. if you must play those games then most likely the HD Box Pro might be your best option. or possibly the kworld gamers choice tv tuner... I'll check those out sometime, but you will need some sort of external device to get those working at higher resolutions.

NeoChaosX

07-15-2008, 12:04 AM

07-25-2008, 11:28 PM

Is there a 720p version of this TV?

NeoChaosX

07-25-2008, 11:49 PM

Is there a 720p version of this TV?

Yeah, look for any Aquos models where the model number ends in D43U.

Kayin

07-26-2008, 02:03 AM

According to one poster on AVSforums, the Sharp Aquos LC-42D64U (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14133516#post14133516) has a Game Mode that actually eliminates lag when playing games. He even recorded a video to demonstrate it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TETrO0GypU

I've got a LC-42D62U, but it has the same Game Mode he describes in his post and video, so I feel sort of safe with my TV.

Apparently his post says Sharp is discontinuing it, sad. :shake:

07-26-2008, 07:51 AM

Yeah, look for any Aquos models where the model number ends in D43U.

Thanks.

And that has the same anti-lag properties as the d64u?

NeoChaosX

07-26-2008, 09:29 AM

Thanks.

And that has the same anti-lag properties as the d64u?
Yep, has "Game" as one of the available AV modes that you can (only) switch to with its remote.

Booyah9

07-29-2008, 05:53 AM

I've read through the entire thread, and there's some great information here. I just moved and only have a computer monitor, so I haven't been able to use my PS2. My monitor is this model by Eizo: http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/s2031w/spec.asp It's native resolution is 1680 × 1050, but as I understand it deinterlacing is the time intensive process.

If I get the XRGB-2plus will I be able to use the PS2 lag free on my monitor?

Golba loves

07-29-2008, 05:51 PM

fubarduck's HDTV / Video Game Lag FAQ version 2.0

Introduction
First of all, keep in mind that this is not a FAQ about HDTV. If you do not understand the basics about HDTV, this FAQ may be hard to understand so I would recommend checking out an HDTV-related FAQ first. Once you're comfortable with that, read this FAQ and you ought to understand quite well how to prevent or correct any lag-related problems. Also, while much of what I post has been tested and confirmed personally, some of my information only comes from what I have only heard from owners of other HDTVs. As such, I will constantly be updating this FAQ as new information surfaces.

Part I

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

So just how bad is the lag?
Although there is no real way to measure, and the numbers vary based on the HDTV, the average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material. DLP HDTVs seem to be a bit worse, some people claiming lag up to 15 frames, or 1/4th of a second. If these numbers will not affect your gaming habit, don't worry about it too much. Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small; you can stop reading and get back to gaming if that's the case. The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games. If you fall into one of these categories, please read on.

Will my HDTV be affected by video game lag?
The greatest problem of video gaming lag occurs when playing 480i/240p (Standard Definition) games, but can also occur when playing 480p (Enhanced Definition) games. However, playing at a resolution of 480p (Enhanced Defition) or better typically eliminates most or all lag because the most strenuous process of scaling is the process of converting a 480i (interlaced) signal to a 480p (progressive) signal. The people that typically complain about lag even when playing in 480p (progressive) are DLP users, but in theory any HDTV that does not support 480p natively could still be affected. However, an HDTV signal should not experience lag on any HDTV.

As a rule of thumb, you should stay away from DLP sets if you plan on playing a lot of video games.

So what resolution are my video games outputting?

Pre-PS2 game systems:
240p/480i (240p is the same scan rate as 480i and therefore experiences the same problems)

Playstation 2:
480i (most games), 480p (a few games)

Gamecube : 480i (a few games), 480p (most games)

X-Box: 480p (most games), 480i (a few games), 720p (a few games)

X-Box 360:
All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.

These are the resolutions that video game systems can output. For a full list of what game supports what resolution, a good source is http://www.hdtvarcade.com.

What is the native resolution of my display?
CRT HDTVs usually have two native resolutions and sometimes only one. Those resolutions are typically 480p and 1080i. Sometimes, it is only 1080i. THERE ARE NO CRT HDTVS THAT CAN DISPLAY A NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 480i.

Plasma, LCD, and DLP HDTVs always have one native resolution. The native resolution is different for each set. Sometimes it's 720p, sometimes 1080i, sometimes 1080p, and sometimes something completely different.

Example Chart

Worst: You will notice lag.
Better: There is lag, but it may be an acceptable level for you.
Best: There is no lag.

Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.
Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.

Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):
Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.

Example 3 (TV: Samsung DLP with 1080p native resolution--can only accept 1080p through VGA)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: Any game on any system (any resolution) --> Lag.
Better: Any game on any system with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (any resolution) --> Fairly small lag.

The only way to completely avoid lag on any system is to only play games at a resolution in which your HDTV doesn't have to do any scaling.

As always, the BEST way to test for lag is to take your gaming set-up to your local electronics store and politely ask to test it on their HDTVs, which they shouldn't mind at all since you're a potential customer. Bring a time sensitive game, such as a fighting game, a rhythm game, or a golf/football game with a swinging/kicking meter. It's worth it to do a small trip to the store like this before you make such a large investment!

Part II: Reducing/Eliminating lag on HDTV's

Solution A: Getting 240p/480i games to output in 480p

Since playing a video game in 480p or better resolution typically greatly reduces or eliminates the lag, all we have to do is get our 480i-only games to output a 480p signal and we can all be back to playing our favorite games lag-free on our shiny new HDTVs.

This may reduce but not eliminate the lag on DLP sets. Across the Internet, many people claim that 480p still suffers from unreasonable lag on DLP HDTV's. Maybe you won't notice it, but if you're a hardcore gamer you probably will.

What myself and others have neglected to think about for so long is, "isn't there a video scaler that deinterlaces 480i material made JUST for video games?" There is, and many of us own one: it's called a VGA box. All a VGA box does is deinterlace 480i to a monitor-safe resolution. Of course VGA boxes don't have lag: they're made for video games!

But wait--not ALL VGA boxes are fit for an HDTV. Remember, VGA boxes are designed for VGA monitors, so most of them scale to a monitor-only resolution, such as the Redant PS2 VGA Box which only outputs 858x525 at 60Hz.

OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. There are only two such VGA boxes that exist right now, and they're both only made in Japan. Time to point your Web browser over to http://www.ncsx.com.

The Products
First, we have the Hori Upscan Converter 2.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html
Hori's product was designed specifically for PS2 but can take an input from any electronic device that outputs Composite or S-Video. However, the quality from any Composite or S-Video device is probably questionable. Of course, it's probably only the PS2 that we care about, since 95% of Gamecube and X-Box games can output 480p, anyway.

Next, we have Micomsoft's XRGB-2+.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-2P2.html
The XRGB-2+ is hands-down the best VGA box available on the market. The $200 pricetag is for a reason--the XGB-2+ is unique in that it is the only console that can accept a Japanese RGB input from any console with the proper cable. RGB is the best possible method that any current video game console can output video, but American TVs typically don't have an RGB input. It can also take Composite, S-Video, or D-Terminal input (a Japan-only style connector which is exactly the same quality as Component input in the US). The best possible quality connection from a PS2 would be to use a Japanese RGB PS2 cable and have it run to the XRGB-2+ which then outputs to your HDTV. However, reviewers have said that when they use the D-Terminal connection that they can't tell the different between that and the RGB connection. Either one is probably fine. The XRGB-2+ also comes with a Component to D-Terminal cable, so that you can use Component cables for the D-Terminal input. The X-RGB2+ also has a plethora of video and synchronization options that the Upscan Converter 2 is lacking.

Unfortunately, as of this revision, the XRGB-2+ has now been discontinued because of the soon-to-be-released XRGB-3. However, the XRGB-3 looks like another great product, as it supports DVI-output as well as full support for 480p, 1080i, and 720p inputs via D-Terminal/Component. It will also be able to output 1024x768, 1280x1024, 1600x1200, and 1280x768 resolutions. A preview PDF file can be found here (in Japanese):
http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/XRGB-3_Preview.pdf

As many of you may know, VGA boxes are notorious for making stuff look really awful, but the XRGB-2+ has received rave reviews as being the only VGA box that makes video games look good on a PC monitor. Therefore, the XRGB-2+ is probably the overall best choice while the Upscan Converter 2 may be a good "Budget" choice, especially if you specifically only want to eliminate lag on a PS1/PS2.

Finally, Dreamcast-only users have one more option: as some of you may already know, Dreamcast ALREADY is capable of outputting a 640x480 60hz VGA signal! All you need is a Dreamcast VGA Cable, and you can totally eliminate the need for a regular VGA box. The Dreamcast game you are playing MUST support VGA mode for this solution to work, but the vast majority of games for Dreamcast support this mode (including all of the fighting games) so everyone here should be fine--check out http://www.hdtvarcade.com for a full list of VGA-Capable Dreamcast games.

Solution B: Game Mode

Another (and much easier) solution is to use your HDTV's "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process from 480i to your HDTV's native resolution. However, not all HDTV's have such a Game Mode--for a small list, please see the Q&A at the bottom. However, HDTV's which utilize a game mode are STILL very susceptable to lag despite speeding up the scaling process.

Here is a quote from Samsung’s Dan Schinasi in an interview with gaming illustrated:
"Current 1080p models incorporate "GAME MODE" which minimizes lag time by 30 percent. This feature will be common on most 2006 models."

30 percent, huh? Well, for those of you happy with 30 percent . . .

Remember: DLP should be avoided at all costs, and Solution A is typically a better route than Solution B. However, Solution B may be a more reasonable solution for gamers who do not care about or need perfect time-sensitivity.

Plugging it in
But wait, there's more--these products all only output VGA! Sure, they're outputting an HDTV friendly resolution now, but how does this hook up to our HDTV?

There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.

The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.

However, my personal recommendation for VGA to Component is now Micomsoft's XSelect-D4, available here: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XS-D4.html. Another high-quality Japanese product by the makers of the XRGB-2+, the XSelect-D4 is also capable of taking a VGA input (from Input 3 in the back) and outputting a D-Terminal signal (which can be converted to Component easily via a D-Terminal to Component cable). It also doubles as a high-quality Component video selector for those of you with multiple game systems.

Troubleshooting
So that's it, right? Well, not quite . . .

acem77 from HDTV Arcade experienced a problem when hooking up the XRGB-2+ to his Samsung DLP via his DLP's VGA input at first. He experienced bad flickering when trying to play any game. However, with the XRGB-2+'s tweaking options combined with the fine-tuning options made especially for the VGA input on his DLP, he was able to eliminate the flickering. acem77's theory is that this is a problem only with fixed-pixel displays (DLP, Plasma, LCD) and that non-fixed panel displays (aka Tube and "Projection" TVs) would not experience this problem. However, this is something that we can't know for sure until more people have tested this solution.

For this reason, anyone wanting to test this solution WITHOUT a VGA input on their TV and WITHOUT an XRGB-2+, be warned that you may suffer a flickering problem in exchange for eliminating the lag.

Conclusion
Be aware that this is a newly discovered solution that only a few people have done so far, although anyone should be able to do it with reasonable success. The cost for this solution is expensive, ranging from $100 to $400 depending on what devices and cables you choose to purchase, but ANY hardcore gamer investing in an HDTV and planning to play Playstation 2, Dreamcast, or any older consoles a lot on their HDTV should highly consider this solution. At the least, a VGA input port should be high on the priority list for those planning to buy an HDTV so that they may take this route if the HDTV's lag is unacceptable to them.

Credit goes to acem77 from http://www.hdtvarcade.com for discovering this fix.

Part III: Q&A

Q: My friend says that CRT HDTV's don't lag.
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.

Q: My friend says the only HDTV's that lag are DLP's!
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.

Q: My new Samsung DLP is supposed to have a Game Mode, but I can't find it.
A: On the newer Samsung DLPs, the way you turn on "Game Mode" is by actually setting the name of the input as "Game".

Q: Which HDTVs have a Game Mode?
A:These are the known HDTV models that implement a "Game Mode". These HDTVs MAY eliminate 480i game lag--before you buy, of course, you should bring your PS2/console of choice to your local electronics store to see if the TV's function works as advertised!

Toshiba 52HMX94/62HMX94 (DLP)
Sony Wega KDF-E42A10/KDF-E50A10 (LCD RPTV)
Samsung HL-R5067W and various other new Samsung DLP models (Change the name of your PS2's input to "Game")
And many newer unlisted HDTVs.

Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.

Q: I own a Samsung DLP. What should I do?
A: While it's best to avoid DLP technology altogether, the person who originally pointed me in the direction of the XRGB-2+ (acem77 from HDTVarcade.com) claims that when playing through the VGA port there is no lag. All other Samsung DLP users claim that 480p still lags through the Component inputs, so it is possible that going through the VGA input helps bypass more of the suboptimal DLP scaling processes. I have not personally verified this, but if you already own a DLP, there may still be hope. Try out an XRGB-2+ and see what it can do for you.

The XRGB-3 also seems like it may be an excellent option for DLP owners. Rest assured that I will be eager to evaluate Samsung's and others DLP sets once I have an XRGB-3 to test with.

Q: So why does the XRGB-2+ greatly reduce or eliminate lag? Does it output a digital/High Def signal or something like that?
A: No. The XRGB-2+ is a device that scales a video game system from 480i to 480p, typically doing a much faster (and nicer-looking) job than most HDTV's built-in video scaler. First of all, the signal is analog, since we're outputting analog VGA from the XRGB-2+. Secondly, 480p is still not a High Definition signal--but it's good enough to prevent most HDTV's from lagging.

Q: Why don't companies make HDTVs with a good built-in scaler, like the XRGB-2+?
A: Companies making HDTVs know what sells them: how good they look in the showroom. Therefore, HDTV manufacturers are concentrating on making scalers that make popular Standard Definition material such as Standard Definition TV channels and DVDs look as good as possible; processing time was probably not even considered an issue. They are still willing to ignore video gamers because the public is extremely uninformed and the less hardcore gamers probably do not even notice the lag. Have you ever seen the advertisement or brochure for an HDTV tell you how much it lagged on non-High Definition material? Didn't think so.
The XRGB-2+, on the other hand, was designed to make video games look good AND does so with no lag. If only HDTV companies would pick up on Micomsoft's idea!

Q: Who are you? Why do you know all this stuff?
A: I am one of the few hardcore video gamers who also happens to be an audio/video and home theater enthusiast. My main interest is 2D and 3D fighting games from companies such as Capcom, SNK, Sammy, Namco, and various other companies. I noticed lag immediately on my first HDTV set after trying to play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike on it. As fighting games are time-sensitive down to the frame (1/30th or 1/60th of a second, depending on the game), it was very easy for my friends and I to notice. I am also a perfectionist, so ever since then I have searched and tested various products in order to find a solution for playing fighting games and many other video games on my HDTV at home, lag-free and without nasty scaling artifacts. After almost two years, I have found what I believe to be the "best" solution--for now.

Updated: 07/08/2006
03/06/2006: Version 2.0; heavy revisions and some new information
09/05/2005: Added Modding info.
07/12/2005: Added Dreamcast VGA Box.
07/12/2005: Added HDTVs with "Game Mode"
very informative, thank you

NeoChaosX

07-29-2008, 07:25 PM

You didn't have to quote the entire first post just for a one-line thank you.

Golba loves

07-29-2008, 11:38 PM

You didn't have to quote the entire first post just for a one-line thank you.
:rofl:

PAYBACK

07-30-2008, 02:29 AM

I can tell you for sure game mode will not be sufficient and you will need at least the DC vga cable.

vga to svideo would look like crap and most likely not fix your issue since most samsungs still apply video filters to the s-video port. (these add lag.)

My advice: get a tv with a vga port.

Is this the dc vga cable you're talking about?

*bump

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sega-Dreamcast-VGA-Cable_W0QQitemZ310047279384QQihZ021QQcategoryZ1399 69QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Golba loves

08-05-2008, 02:08 PM

beatsofdevil

08-05-2008, 02:19 PM

I have a Sony LCD and I have lag issues. So i went out and bought a vga cable and the vga adapter for dreamcast. Even though it comes in lower quality I do have a video feed but their is no sound. Does anyone know what I can do to get sound on it?

thanks.
isn't there a mini sound jack? and then connect to TV.

I bought the VGA box...but nothing shows on my TV. I guess my tv doesn't show as low as 640x480...FUCKLES

so Im going to get a converter to composite or something today...

SNAAAAKE

08-05-2008, 02:39 PM

Yeah, look for any Aquos models where the model number ends in D43U.

thats lag free too ??

08-05-2008, 08:04 PM

:u: According to NeoChaosX, yes.

I'm torn between trying out the Sharp 720p model which supposedly has no lag, and buying a newer HDTV and taking my chances with the HD Box Pro etc.

I bought the VGA box...but nothing shows on my TV. I guess my tv doesn't show as low as 640x480...FUCKLES
Out of curiosity, what kind of TV do you have?

beatsofdevil

08-05-2008, 09:49 PM

Samsung 40" 1080p

well I bought a VGA to component converter at radio shack, and now it all works like a charm

beatsofdevil

08-07-2008, 07:20 AM

so, supposedly the VGA port does not lag, which is why we convert to VGA. but if people don't have a VGA input, or it doesn't quite work right, we can convert the VGA to component ad plug it in through component. then, doesn't that lag? if not, why don't we just convert to component instead with no VGA. is it possible. is the only input that lags composite?

Hrmmm : /

studtrooper

08-07-2008, 11:03 AM

According to one poster on AVSforums, the Sharp Aquos LC-42D64U (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14133516#post14133516) has a Game Mode that actually eliminates lag when playing games. He even recorded a video to demonstrate it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TETrO0GypU

I've got a LC-42D62U, but it has the same Game Mode he describes in his post and video, so I feel sort of safe with my TV.

480p (on up to 1080p) on this HDTV doesn't lag at all from what I can see. I don't even use the game mode and still crank out teh skills on ST.

ninja_velmor

08-07-2008, 02:17 PM

sorry if this question has been answered already.
I currently have a 26" 720P HD tv. When ever i play fighting games on it withmy ps2 i notice that i have a bit of delay that i don't get on my SD TV. Its about maybe a half second delay. Anyway, i was wondering if A HDMI cable for my ps3, would solve my issues, or is there something else i have to do??

ninja_velmor

08-09-2008, 12:33 PM

bump

NeoChaosX

08-09-2008, 12:47 PM

Nope, PS3 has built-in input lag with all PS2 games, regardless of resolution or connection.

ninja_velmor

08-09-2008, 01:43 PM

well since sf4 and other fighters are going to be HD, and if i have HDMI cables, the TV won;t have to upscale, so will i get delay from such games as sf4, Tvc, blazblu, HD remix?

Kayin

08-09-2008, 01:49 PM

well since sf4 and other fighters are going to be HD, and if i have HDMI cables, the TV won;t have to upscale, so will i get delay from such games as sf4, Tvc, blazblu, HD remix?

Unless you have a DLP HDTV it shouldn't lag at all.

ninja_velmor

08-09-2008, 02:26 PM

Unless you have a DLP HDTV it shouldn't lag at all.
cool. Thanks a lot guys.

Ex0dUs27

08-12-2008, 07:39 AM

okay. i am buying a new tv. i have a ps3 and a wii that i play smash and street fighter/metal gear on (exclusively lol)...however, i also play snes often and i am looking for a high end, 32"-40" tv ~$1000 that would suit my needs.

correct me if i am wrong, but would composite cables for the wii knock out lag on most plasmas?

Ps3 in vga ports should be lag free on most tvs correct?

the prob is the snes. im not sure where to go on this one. i know a few people with lcds lag bad when it comes to snes. how do you overcome?

08-12-2008, 12:40 PM

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sharp-32-AQUOS-LCD-HDTV-LC-32D43U/sem/rpsm/oid/186142/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Dunno if anyone was looking to get one, but a 720p/32 inch version of the Sharp HDTV that was being talked about is at Circuit City. Couldn't find a lower price.

Vegit814

08-12-2008, 02:11 PM

Can anyone recommend a decent 19-24 inch HDTV thats generally good for gaming?I know they lack features compared to larger ones but are any of them considered to be worth the purchase?I mostly play fighters on the 360 and PS3 along with some occasional Smash on the Wii. I don't plan on getting anything bigger until I get my own place after I'm done with college.

huge balls

08-12-2008, 02:55 PM

Try looking at the benq v2400w. It has 0 lag but the viewing angle isn't so good.

fLoE

08-13-2008, 11:26 PM

According to one poster on AVSforums, the Sharp Aquos LC-42D64U (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14133516#post14133516) has a Game Mode that actually eliminates lag when playing games. He even recorded a video to demonstrate it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TETrO0GypU

I've got a LC-42D62U, but it has the same Game Mode he describes in his post and video, so I feel sort of safe with my TV.

would it be safe to assume that the other sizes in this same model line (im looking at a LC-46D64U the 46' version) would have the same results (no lag) since its the same model of tv?

ulovemikeroch

08-14-2008, 12:13 AM

According to one poster on AVSforums, the Sharp Aquos LC-42D64U (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14133516#post14133516) has a Game Mode that actually eliminates lag when playing games. He even recorded a video to demonstrate it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TETrO0GypU

I've got a LC-42D62U, but it has the same Game Mode he describes in his post and video, so I feel sort of safe with my TV.
That guy has to post on SRK, or one of the other SNK/Capcom forums.

NeoChaosX

08-14-2008, 07:28 AM

That guy has to post on SRK, or one of the other SNK/Capcom forums.

There is an Infil here at SRK...dunno if he's the same guy, though.

Atrowurst

08-26-2008, 10:58 PM

I have a Samsung LE-40A557 HDTV and a ps3 which is connected via HDMI.

Now I wanted to record some videos from my ps3, so I had to connect the playstation via the Scart/AV cable so I can route the video Signal to my computer.

I have noticable lag when playing games (ie. tekken), I even have lag in XMB.
I have game mode activated on my Samsung.

Basically does that mean if the ps3 is connected via Scart/AV cables, there ALWAYS will be lag since the only output resolution I can choose is 480i?

Chasem0

09-23-2008, 05:19 PM

I have a 32" 720p Samsung LCD, and I'm going to hook my Wii up to it. Before I buy new cables (currently only got composite), should I get VGA or component?

Kayin

09-23-2008, 05:52 PM

Basically does that mean if the ps3 is connected via Scart/AV cables, there ALWAYS will be lag since the only output resolution I can choose is 480i?

Yes, there will be lag if you use them, for the exact reason you stated.

KnightWarrior

09-23-2008, 06:02 PM

I have a 32" 720p Samsung LCD, and I'm going to hook my Wii up to it. Before I buy new cables (currently only got composite), should I get VGA or component?

Go for Component Cable's