HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution! [Archive]

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fubarduck

07-06-2005, 07:46 AM

fubarduck's HDTV / Video Game Lag FAQ version 2.0

Introduction
First of all, keep in mind that this is not a FAQ about HDTV. If you do not understand the basics about HDTV, this FAQ may be hard to understand so I would recommend checking out an HDTV-related FAQ first. Once you're comfortable with that, read this FAQ and you ought to understand quite well how to prevent or correct any lag-related problems. Also, while much of what I post has been tested and confirmed personally, some of my information only comes from what I have only heard from owners of other HDTVs. As such, I will constantly be updating this FAQ as new information surfaces.

Part I

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

So just how bad is the lag?
Although there is no real way to measure, and the numbers vary based on the HDTV, the average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material. DLP HDTVs seem to be a bit worse, some people claiming lag up to 15 frames, or 1/4th of a second. If these numbers will not affect your gaming habit, don't worry about it too much. Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small; you can stop reading and get back to gaming if that's the case. The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games. If you fall into one of these categories, please read on.

Will my HDTV be affected by video game lag?
The greatest problem of video gaming lag occurs when playing 480i/240p (Standard Definition) games, but can also occur when playing 480p (Enhanced Definition) games. However, playing at a resolution of 480p (Enhanced Defition) or better typically eliminates most or all lag because the most strenuous process of scaling is the process of converting a 480i (interlaced) signal to a 480p (progressive) signal. The people that typically complain about lag even when playing in 480p (progressive) are DLP users, but in theory any HDTV that does not support 480p natively could still be affected. However, an HDTV signal should not experience lag on any HDTV.

As a rule of thumb, you should stay away from DLP sets if you plan on playing a lot of video games.

So what resolution are my video games outputting?

Pre-PS2 game systems:
240p/480i (240p is the same scan rate as 480i and therefore experiences the same problems)

Playstation 2:
480i (most games), 480p (a few games)

Gamecube : 480i (a few games), 480p (most games)

X-Box: 480p (most games), 480i (a few games), 720p (a few games)

X-Box 360:
All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.

These are the resolutions that video game systems can output. For a full list of what game supports what resolution, a good source is http://www.hdtvarcade.com.

What is the native resolution of my display?
CRT HDTVs usually have two native resolutions and sometimes only one. Those resolutions are typically 480p and 1080i. Sometimes, it is only 1080i. THERE ARE NO CRT HDTVS THAT CAN DISPLAY A NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 480i.

Plasma, LCD, and DLP HDTVs always have one native resolution. The native resolution is different for each set. Sometimes it's 720p, sometimes 1080i, sometimes 1080p, and sometimes something completely different.

Example Chart

Worst: You will notice lag.
Better: There is lag, but it may be an acceptable level for you.
Best: There is no lag.

Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.
Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.

Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):
Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.

Example 3 (TV: Samsung DLP with 1080p native resolution--can only accept 1080p through VGA)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: Any game on any system (any resolution) --> Lag.
Better: Any game on any system with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (any resolution) --> Fairly small lag.

The only way to completely avoid lag on any system is to only play games at a resolution in which your HDTV doesn't have to do any scaling.

As always, the BEST way to test for lag is to take your gaming set-up to your local electronics store and politely ask to test it on their HDTVs, which they shouldn't mind at all since you're a potential customer. Bring a time sensitive game, such as a fighting game, a rhythm game, or a golf/football game with a swinging/kicking meter. It's worth it to do a small trip to the store like this before you make such a large investment!

Part II: Reducing/Eliminating lag on HDTV's

Solution A: Getting 240p/480i games to output in 480p

Since playing a video game in 480p or better resolution typically greatly reduces or eliminates the lag, all we have to do is get our 480i-only games to output a 480p signal and we can all be back to playing our favorite games lag-free on our shiny new HDTVs.

This may reduce but not eliminate the lag on DLP sets. Across the Internet, many people claim that 480p still suffers from unreasonable lag on DLP HDTV's. Maybe you won't notice it, but if you're a hardcore gamer you probably will.

What myself and others have neglected to think about for so long is, "isn't there a video scaler that deinterlaces 480i material made JUST for video games?" There is, and many of us own one: it's called a VGA box. All a VGA box does is deinterlace 480i to a monitor-safe resolution. Of course VGA boxes don't have lag: they're made for video games!

But wait--not ALL VGA boxes are fit for an HDTV. Remember, VGA boxes are designed for VGA monitors, so most of them scale to a monitor-only resolution, such as the Redant PS2 VGA Box which only outputs 858x525 at 60Hz.

OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. There are only two such VGA boxes that exist right now, and they're both only made in Japan. Time to point your Web browser over to http://www.ncsx.com.

The Products
First, we have the Hori Upscan Converter 2.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html
Hori's product was designed specifically for PS2 but can take an input from any electronic device that outputs Composite or S-Video. However, the quality from any Composite or S-Video device is probably questionable. Of course, it's probably only the PS2 that we care about, since 95% of Gamecube and X-Box games can output 480p, anyway.

Next, we have Micomsoft's XRGB-2+.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-2P2.html
The XRGB-2+ is hands-down the best VGA box available on the market. The $200 pricetag is for a reason--the XGB-2+ is unique in that it is the only console that can accept a Japanese RGB input from any console with the proper cable. RGB is the best possible method that any current video game console can output video, but American TVs typically don't have an RGB input. It can also take Composite, S-Video, or D-Terminal input (a Japan-only style connector which is exactly the same quality as Component input in the US). The best possible quality connection from a PS2 would be to use a Japanese RGB PS2 cable and have it run to the XRGB-2+ which then outputs to your HDTV. However, reviewers have said that when they use the D-Terminal connection that they can't tell the different between that and the RGB connection. Either one is probably fine. The XRGB-2+ also comes with a Component to D-Terminal cable, so that you can use Component cables for the D-Terminal input. The X-RGB2+ also has a plethora of video and synchronization options that the Upscan Converter 2 is lacking.

Unfortunately, as of this revision, the XRGB-2+ has now been discontinued because of the soon-to-be-released XRGB-3. However, the XRGB-3 looks like another great product, as it supports DVI-output as well as full support for 480p, 1080i, and 720p inputs via D-Terminal/Component. It will also be able to output 1024x768, 1280x1024, 1600x1200, and 1280x768 resolutions. A preview PDF file can be found here (in Japanese):
http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/XRGB-3_Preview.pdf

As many of you may know, VGA boxes are notorious for making stuff look really awful, but the XRGB-2+ has received rave reviews as being the only VGA box that makes video games look good on a PC monitor. Therefore, the XRGB-2+ is probably the overall best choice while the Upscan Converter 2 may be a good "Budget" choice, especially if you specifically only want to eliminate lag on a PS1/PS2.

Finally, Dreamcast-only users have one more option: as some of you may already know, Dreamcast ALREADY is capable of outputting a 640x480 60hz VGA signal! All you need is a Dreamcast VGA Cable, and you can totally eliminate the need for a regular VGA box. The Dreamcast game you are playing MUST support VGA mode for this solution to work, but the vast majority of games for Dreamcast support this mode (including all of the fighting games) so everyone here should be fine--check out http://www.hdtvarcade.com for a full list of VGA-Capable Dreamcast games.

Solution B: Game Mode

Another (and much easier) solution is to use your HDTV's "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process from 480i to your HDTV's native resolution. However, not all HDTV's have such a Game Mode--for a small list, please see the Q&A at the bottom. However, HDTV's which utilize a game mode are STILL very susceptable to lag despite speeding up the scaling process.

Here is a quote from Samsung’s Dan Schinasi in an interview with gaming illustrated:
"Current 1080p models incorporate "GAME MODE" which minimizes lag time by 30 percent. This feature will be common on most 2006 models."

30 percent, huh? Well, for those of you happy with 30 percent . . .

Remember: DLP should be avoided at all costs, and Solution A is typically a better route than Solution B. However, Solution B may be a more reasonable solution for gamers who do not care about or need perfect time-sensitivity.

Plugging it in
But wait, there's more--these products all only output VGA! Sure, they're outputting an HDTV friendly resolution now, but how does this hook up to our HDTV?

There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.

The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.

However, my personal recommendation for VGA to Component is now Micomsoft's XSelect-D4, available here: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XS-D4.html. Another high-quality Japanese product by the makers of the XRGB-2+, the XSelect-D4 is also capable of taking a VGA input (from Input 3 in the back) and outputting a D-Terminal signal (which can be converted to Component easily via a D-Terminal to Component cable). It also doubles as a high-quality Component video selector for those of you with multiple game systems.

Troubleshooting
So that's it, right? Well, not quite . . .

acem77 from HDTV Arcade experienced a problem when hooking up the XRGB-2+ to his Samsung DLP via his DLP's VGA input at first. He experienced bad flickering when trying to play any game. However, with the XRGB-2+'s tweaking options combined with the fine-tuning options made especially for the VGA input on his DLP, he was able to eliminate the flickering. acem77's theory is that this is a problem only with fixed-pixel displays (DLP, Plasma, LCD) and that non-fixed panel displays (aka Tube and "Projection" TVs) would not experience this problem. However, this is something that we can't know for sure until more people have tested this solution.

For this reason, anyone wanting to test this solution WITHOUT a VGA input on their TV and WITHOUT an XRGB-2+, be warned that you may suffer a flickering problem in exchange for eliminating the lag.

Conclusion
Be aware that this is a newly discovered solution that only a few people have done so far, although anyone should be able to do it with reasonable success. The cost for this solution is expensive, ranging from $100 to $400 depending on what devices and cables you choose to purchase, but ANY hardcore gamer investing in an HDTV and planning to play Playstation 2, Dreamcast, or any older consoles a lot on their HDTV should highly consider this solution. At the least, a VGA input port should be high on the priority list for those planning to buy an HDTV so that they may take this route if the HDTV's lag is unacceptable to them.

Credit goes to acem77 from http://www.hdtvarcade.com for discovering this fix.

Part III: Q&A

Q: My friend says that CRT HDTV's don't lag.
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.

Q: My friend says the only HDTV's that lag are DLP's!
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.

Q: My new Samsung DLP is supposed to have a Game Mode, but I can't find it.
A: On the newer Samsung DLPs, the way you turn on "Game Mode" is by actually setting the name of the input as "Game".

Q: Which HDTVs have a Game Mode?
A:These are the known HDTV models that implement a "Game Mode". These HDTVs MAY eliminate 480i game lag--before you buy, of course, you should bring your PS2/console of choice to your local electronics store to see if the TV's function works as advertised!

Toshiba 52HMX94/62HMX94 (DLP)
Sony Wega KDF-E42A10/KDF-E50A10 (LCD RPTV)
Samsung HL-R5067W and various other new Samsung DLP models (Change the name of your PS2's input to "Game")
And many newer unlisted HDTVs.

Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.

Q: I own a Samsung DLP. What should I do?
A: While it's best to avoid DLP technology altogether, the person who originally pointed me in the direction of the XRGB-2+ (acem77 from HDTVarcade.com) claims that when playing through the VGA port there is no lag. All other Samsung DLP users claim that 480p still lags through the Component inputs, so it is possible that going through the VGA input helps bypass more of the suboptimal DLP scaling processes. I have not personally verified this, but if you already own a DLP, there may still be hope. Try out an XRGB-2+ and see what it can do for you.

The XRGB-3 also seems like it may be an excellent option for DLP owners. Rest assured that I will be eager to evaluate Samsung's and others DLP sets once I have an XRGB-3 to test with.

Q: So why does the XRGB-2+ greatly reduce or eliminate lag? Does it output a digital/High Def signal or something like that?
A: No. The XRGB-2+ is a device that scales a video game system from 480i to 480p, typically doing a much faster (and nicer-looking) job than most HDTV's built-in video scaler. First of all, the signal is analog, since we're outputting analog VGA from the XRGB-2+. Secondly, 480p is still not a High Definition signal--but it's good enough to prevent most HDTV's from lagging.

Q: Why don't companies make HDTVs with a good built-in scaler, like the XRGB-2+?
A: Companies making HDTVs know what sells them: how good they look in the showroom. Therefore, HDTV manufacturers are concentrating on making scalers that make popular Standard Definition material such as Standard Definition TV channels and DVDs look as good as possible; processing time was probably not even considered an issue. They are still willing to ignore video gamers because the public is extremely uninformed and the less hardcore gamers probably do not even notice the lag. Have you ever seen the advertisement or brochure for an HDTV tell you how much it lagged on non-High Definition material? Didn't think so.
The XRGB-2+, on the other hand, was designed to make video games look good AND does so with no lag. If only HDTV companies would pick up on Micomsoft's idea!

Q: Who are you? Why do you know all this stuff?
A: I am one of the few hardcore video gamers who also happens to be an audio/video and home theater enthusiast. My main interest is 2D and 3D fighting games from companies such as Capcom, SNK, Sammy, Namco, and various other companies. I noticed lag immediately on my first HDTV set after trying to play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike on it. As fighting games are time-sensitive down to the frame (1/30th or 1/60th of a second, depending on the game), it was very easy for my friends and I to notice. I am also a perfectionist, so ever since then I have searched and tested various products in order to find a solution for playing fighting games and many other video games on my HDTV at home, lag-free and without nasty scaling artifacts. After almost two years, I have found what I believe to be the "best" solution--for now.

Updated: 07/08/2006
03/06/2006: Version 2.0; heavy revisions and some new information
09/05/2005: Added Modding info.
07/12/2005: Added Dreamcast VGA Box.
07/12/2005: Added HDTVs with "Game Mode"

AlphaCrush

07-06-2005, 11:10 AM

very nice

Sugar Land

07-06-2005, 10:57 PM

just stick to your good ol Sony Trinitrons, GOT XBR???

Great post btw

SoulCaliFreak

07-07-2005, 09:55 AM

VERY informative. Definitely something to think about when I want to upgrade to HDTV.

For now, YES, my Trinitron rocks.

platinum_pinoy

07-11-2005, 06:54 AM

fubarduck

07-11-2005, 07:09 AM

My friend has a Samsung DLP and when I hooked up my PS2 (even with monster cables), it was lag city. At first, I found this to be irritating, but then I realized that the TV was made for next gen hardware, so I dont think the problem isnt that bad to where a normal TV cannot fix it. If anything, my friend should be happy that he has a high res TV that is already compatible for the next PS3 and Xbox 360s.

Sure, HDTVs are made for next gen hardware, but they ought to work with old hardware too . . . and PS2 specifically is CURRENT GENERATION hardware that will still be around for quite a long time. Not everyone is going to buy a PS3/X-Box 360 immediately at launch.

I don't think anyone expects to buy a brand new HDTV and have it not work well with their PS2. The fact that 99% of HDTVs cannot do this correctly out of the box is quite unsettling.

Toodles

07-11-2005, 09:45 AM

The Problem
OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. There are only two such VGA boxes that exist right now, and they're both only made in Japan.
Dreamcast's work at that rate internally, and is exactly what their VGA boxes output. The hardware in the DC VGA boxes is rediculously simple because the DC was made for it. So, any VGA box for the DC should stay true to the 640x480 60Hz format without lag. Have you tried using DC VGA box on your HDTV? If it still lagged, any idea why? Sorry, i don't have an HDTV (I like tube TV's damnit, I still think they look better. Now a tube HDTV, that'd be nice.) so please forgive if Im cloudying things up.

Edit: oh yeah, PM me if you find any place in the next week or so that has an XRGB+, immediately if its cheap. I haven't seen one yet, and would love to take one home with me.

fubarduck

07-11-2005, 05:24 PM

Dreamcast's work at that rate internally, and is exactly what their VGA boxes output. The hardware in the DC VGA boxes is rediculously simple because the DC was made for it. So, any VGA box for the DC should stay true to the 640x480 60Hz format without lag. Have you tried using DC VGA box on your HDTV? If it still lagged, any idea why?

Edit: oh yeah, PM me if you find any place in the next week or so that has an XRGB+, immediately if its cheap. I haven't seen one yet, and would love to take one home with me.

You're right, I always forget about Dreamcast =P

If you're using a Dreamcast, you don't need a VGA Box of course, just a Dreamcast VGA cable and a VGA-input capable TV or VGA-->Component adapter. All of the important games have VGA capabilities IIRC.

The main problem with Dreamcast is that Dreamcast doesn't have Component video cables--the highest it goes for TV A/V Cables is S-Video, and S-Video connections are not capable of outputting a 480p (Progressive Scan) signal, only 480i! Therefore, most people experience lag with them on HDTVs. A savvy few individuals probably ALREADY use a Dreamcast VGA Cable + Audio Authority 9A60 adapter on their HDTV set. Those individuals shouldn't experience any lag whatsoever :tup:

I will update my FAQ to add that information which slipped my mind, thanks! My Dreamcast has lived in the closet for almost 2 years now since I can play every non-MVC2 fighting game on PS2 (and I don't play MVC2).

Sorry, i don't have an HDTV (I like tube TV's damnit, I still think they look better. Now a tube HDTV, that'd be nice.) so please forgive if Im cloudying things up.

Actually, I ONLY use tube HDTVs--you're right, they DO still look better, even the HDTV experts at AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com) will attest to that. The picture is superior to any other technology right now, the only problem is size! Tube technology is so heavy that it can't go any higher than 34" Widescreen (200+ lb) or 40" 4:3 (~250 lb IIRC). I believe Sony was the only company that even MADE a 40" 4:3 Tube HDTV, and they stopped manufacturing it three or four years ago because it was just too big. A lot of people want an HDTV bigger than 34" Widescreen though, which is why people are turning to technologies such as LCD, Plasma, and DLP for a very acceptable image at a much bigger size. However, I found the 30" Widescreen Sony HDTV (Tube TV) I use back home to be perfect size for a small apartment like the one I lived in! It all depends on the size of your living room and viewing distance.

454Casull

07-11-2005, 06:32 PM

Excellent post.

BigEd80

07-11-2005, 09:37 PM

I wish Sony didn't stop making that 40" CRT TV, however I heard that there were some defects with that TV, surprise surprise. Sony always seem to have some sort of defect in their products. Still it would have been perfect for some Tekken 5 action or any Capcom fighting game. It would be just like playing on those arcade machines that have the 39" screen (the Big Screen Gauntlet Legends/Dark Legacy machine). By the way does anyone on this site own the 39" version of the Wells Gardner D9200 and play either console or arcade games on it? I would like to get some more info on it.

Fubarduck:

The only thing about the LCDs, DLPs and the plasmas that I complain about is you can't use the Guncons on them or any other gun for games like Time Crisis or House of the Dead, if anyone has figured out how to use them on there, please let me know

fubarduck

09-05-2005, 02:25 AM

Bump--added some very valuable new information to this post today.

True_Tech

09-05-2005, 03:29 AM

BAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAARDI REAAAAAAAAAAD THIS SO WE CAN PLAY ON THE BIG ASS TV IN THE LIVING ROOM

KneelB4Me

09-05-2005, 03:34 AM

fubarduck

09-05-2005, 03:46 AM

Nice post Fubarduck

I have a question about lag with HDTV. The resolution you used as an example, 1920x1080, that is larger than 480p isnt it? Forgive me if Im wrong because Im not quite sure. What Id like to know is if a TV's native resolution is above or at par with a specific HD setting would games still lag at that setting?

Cheers :tup:

Yes, indeed, 1920x1080i (1080i) is larger than 480p, as are all other fixed-panel HDTV displays.

That's a question that is pretty hard to answer. My HDTV is a Direct-View (Tube) display that can output both 480p and 1080i natively, so as long as the game is 480p, there are no problems.

Bigger, flat-panel displays though are usually fixed pixel displays which only support ONE resolution (such as 1080i, or 720p). Many of these displays clearly lag on 480i material, some more so than others. However, other people that own these bigger TVs have claimed that the lag they experienced in 480i in a particular game was eliminated when they enabled 480p. I don't own a fixed pixel display, so I can't personally comment on this, but in theory the time it takes for a TV to scale from 480p to 1080i, 720p, or whatever your TV's native resolution is (as opposed to 480i to 480p THEN to TV's native res) should be much, much faster, probably unnoticeable. I think a lot of HDTVs ought to be able to do this process instantly, or with under one frame of lag since external boxes such as the DVDO iScan HD can do this process in 0.6 frames.

The only way to test this really is to take a 480p enabled game to the store on whatever TV you want to buy and make sure it's lag-free. There are a FEW displays that can even play 480i games with no lag, so there should be several (if I had to guess, 95%) of HDTVs that ought to play 480p games lag-free.

My most important recommendation is to be wary of the new line of fixed panel displays with a native resolution of 1080p. These HDTVs have to de-interlace from 1080i to 1080p, which unless they've improved A LOT on the quality of scaling chips, would lag even worse than 480i games do on most HDTVs right now! Keep in mind that MOST of these "1080p" HDTVs cannot even accept a 1080p input, which means you wouldn't be able to plug in a Blu-Ray player or PS3 and get 1080p in the future--your device would only output at 1080i while the TV de-interlaces it! It's really shameful that various companies (Samsung is the most guilty) have been pushing HDTVs this year with "fake" 1080p.

I haven't experiemented with those sets yet--they may very well work 100%, but I would definitely test one very thoroughly before ever considering a purchase. On paper, it seems like a genuinely awful idea just trying to make some money with the word "1080p" that PS3 and other next-gen devices have sunk into consumer's heads.

Punisher

02-22-2006, 01:31 PM

The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.

I favor the KDS-VTCA3 from Key Digital Systems as this option has higher bandwidth for the output (crisper picture at more resolutions.) These VGA to Component Video Transcoders are usually about $200, but can be had for cheaper. There are also a few other makes of these devices as well. I'm thinking of using this as a way to capture some 15k arcade out, since it also accepts RGBCs.

The VTCA1 and 2 are also out there. 2 allows a pass through, 1 doesn't have this pass through. I'll let you guys know how that goes.

(Grandpa voice)One more thing... :))

if you have no way around the 480i lag and need to get 480p. You can always consider getting a used LD-100 from Faroudja sometimes selling for only a few hundred dollars (origially priced at $14000.) This device will double the amount of lines making 480i to 480p with no noticable lag.

futhamucka

02-22-2006, 01:51 PM

Gabe at Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com) had just made some posts on this problem. He reported today that his Samsung HL-R5067W has a game mode. Add that model to the list.

fubarduck

02-23-2006, 09:57 AM

I favor the KDS-VTCA3 from Key Digital Systems as this option has higher bandwidth for the output (crisper picture at more resolutions.) These VGA to Component Video Transcoders are usually about $200, but can be had for cheaper. There are also a few other makes of these devices as well. I'm thinking of using this as a way to capture some 15k arcade out, since it also accepts RGBCs.

The VTCA1 and 2 are also out there. 2 allows a pass through, 1 doesn't have this pass through. I'll let you guys know how that goes.

(Grandpa voice)One more thing... :))

if you have no way around the 480i lag and need to get 480p. You can always consider getting a used LD-100 from Faroudja sometimes selling for only a few hundred dollars (origially priced at $14000.) This device will double the amount of lines making 480i to 480p with no noticable lag.

Thanks for the input about the Faroudja. It would definitely do the job, but they're even more expensive than the XRGB's and harder to find as well. However, the iScan line doubler DOES still lag according to members of other forums.

Yes, the Key Digital is a higher quality adapter, but a bit more expensive.

However, the main problem is that people going the XRGB-2+ to VGA-->Component adapter route have to deal with adjusting the screen size. The XRGB-2+ allows you to adjust the Horizontal and Vertical POSITION, but not size, so if the image shows up stretched or squished you'd have to adjust it via your TV's service menu. This is why I encourage people wanting to use this solution to make sure the HDTV they want to buy has a VGA input; VGA inputs are more likely to have these kind of adjustment options.

futchamucka, thanks for the info, will update my first post.

ChairHome

02-24-2006, 06:25 AM

Gabe at Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com) had just made some posts on this problem. He reported today that his Samsung HL-R5067W has a game mode. Add that model to the list.

I read this at Penny Arcade and was puzzled. I have the same TV (I think I have the slightly bigger model), and I called tech support a few months regarding lag. The tech told me to put it in "Game Mode", which to me seemed like I was just changing the input name (on the menu on the TV, it actually says "name" and not "mode"). So I'm not 100% positive that it actually does anything. I also took off Digital Noise Reduction, as Gabe did, and I still experience minor lag. I haven't tried Guitar Hero on it yet, but I still feel it (slight lag when playing SC3 on PS2). I think that for him, lag is still present, but its not as bad as before.

fubarduck

02-24-2006, 09:45 AM

I read this at Penny Arcade and was puzzled. I have the same TV (I think I have the slightly bigger model), and I called tech support a few months regarding lag. The tech told me to put it in "Game Mode", which to me seemed like I was just changing the input name (on the menu on the TV, it actually says "name" and not "mode"). So I'm not 100% positive that it actually does anything. I also took off Digital Noise Reduction, as Gabe did, and I still experience minor lag. I haven't tried Guitar Hero on it yet, but I still feel it (slight lag when playing SC3 on PS2). I think that for him, lag is still present, but its not as bad as before.

I think that as fighting games are hands down the most time-sensitive games, fighting gamers typically have the best eye for this sort of thing. When a rhythm game lags just by a little bit, it can "seem" like it isn't lagging since the rhythm is still the same (everything is just slightly delayed, and you can get used to the delay) but with a fighting game you can immediately tell when something is fishy.

You're right about changing the name of the input to "Game" on the new Samsung DLPs--it's SUPPOSED to fix lag. A lot of people do that and say "wow, the lag is gone, back to playing Final Fantasy" and it isn't a big deal. However, people like us still notice those smaller delays so our only choice is to do our research and test the HDTV in-store before making a purchase.

As I wrote in my original post, the "best" way to fix lag on these sets is to feed it a signal that matches its native resolution, or failing that, a 480p signal via XRGB-2. The key process notorious for causing lag on these sets is the process of line-doubling the signal from 480i to 480p. Scaling from 480p to, say, 720p or 1080i is a much less strenuous process on an HDTV's scaler.

Gen-An

02-24-2006, 10:44 AM

Plugging it in
But wait, there's more--these products all only output VGA! Sure, they're outputting an HDTV friendly resolution now, but how does this hook up to our HDTV?

There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.

The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.
[

Another option is to pair the XRGB2+ with Micomsoft's X-Select D4, which supports progressive scan signals and VGA passthrough; it outputs D-Terminal (you'd need a D-terminal/YPbPr cable) and VGA.

fubarduck

02-26-2006, 08:38 PM

Another option is to pair the XRGB2+ with Micomsoft's X-Select D4, which supports progressive scan signals and VGA passthrough; it outputs D-Terminal (you'd need a D-terminal/YPbPr cable) and VGA.

Thanks for the tip about the X-Select D4. I did some reading on Micomsoft's Web page though, and in the fine print they list that when using the VGA input and outputting a D-Terminal (component) signal, it may not display correctly. I think that whether or not it will work depends on both the VGA signal and on the TV you're displaying it on--since this device isn't an upscaler, I don't believe it does any crazy processing to the signal, just outputs what is inputted.

Either way, it's a little scary when it says "VGA input to D-Terminal output is not guaranteed". They don't say it won't work, just that it may not work.

I'm going to keep my eyes peeled over here though and try to pick one up before I leave Japan. It looks useful even apart from the VGA to D-Terminal feature.

Punisher

02-26-2006, 10:36 PM

Javi

02-27-2006, 08:48 PM

The current Sony SXRD models also have the game mode - only works on 480i sources (of course).

fubarduck

03-04-2006, 12:17 PM

I've heard about the X-Select D4, and from what I've heard that it transcodes bidirectionally. It transcodes from component to VGA, and VGA to component. The VGA to component transcoding I believe only works at 480p.

Transcoding basically just reconfigures the signal not messing with its sync. It means that if you put in 31.5kHz horizontal at 59.94Hz vertical you will get those signals in what ever medium you are transcoding to. If you only have 15.75kHz RGB, you better have something that does that RGB or else have a transcoder that will change it to component. This may or may not be a problem if your device is higher or lower than the suggested display technology. I had this problem trying to record Naomi 2 since the device does 15.85kHz.

If you only need component to VGA transcoders. Try looking on eBay there are a bunch selling for ~$50. VGA to component transcoders are much more expensive, but I believe well worth it. Sometimes these can be found on eBay for cheap as well.

Good Luck

On your recommendation, I did pick up an XSelect-D4, and not only does it get the job done but it does it very well (better than any standard VGA-->Component adapter that I have seen). When I have some time next week I will try to get a review written up and update my guide. I've only messed with it for about 30 minutes but my first impressions are VERY good for the XSelect-D4 / XRGB-2+ combo. Needless to say, lag is non-existant and image/aspect ratio is all perfectly sized, colored, and outputted at a nice 480p.

Fantomize

03-08-2006, 01:27 AM

Punisher

03-08-2006, 04:21 AM

Has any body tried this or any thing like it? Its a all in one solution.

http://www.allaboutadapters.com/5x1prviscsw.html

or this one

http://www.allaboutadapters.com/hdcovi2cosc.html

I am interested on purchasine it. It seems like a good solution.

The first one is a scaler. Mostly an unscan converter also able to downscan to 480p from a higher resolution. locks to 480p and 720p.

The second one is a transcoder that goes from VGA to component.

In my opinion the second one is a bit costly compared to a Key Digital Systems ClearColor 3 (KD-VTCA3) which can be found for under $200 in some etailers. If you look hard enough you can find some really nice adapters on ebay for less. The ClearColor 3 has both a VGA pass through and a component output simultaneously. For the fist device, I think it might be a good deal. Then again, I never had to research scalers, just downscan converters to 480i.

Good Luck

leaveal

03-08-2006, 08:32 AM

great, great post.

my parents just got themselves that new DLP. :(

Raz0r

03-08-2006, 10:20 PM

Funny thing is that I've never experienced lag on my HDTV. Stretched picture sure but never lag.

PimpUigi

03-11-2006, 03:57 AM

Same. And...I HATE STRETCHED PICTURE!!!! ARG! HELP ME!

PimpUigi

03-13-2006, 11:14 AM

All right guys, I think I found the solution...it's expensive.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Startech-Component-Composite-S-Video-to-DVI-D-HDTV_W0QQitemZ8709247669QQcategoryZ3761QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

BigEd80

03-25-2006, 05:45 PM

I just found a nice alternative for those who want to use CRTs for HDTVs.

www.monitoroutlet.com

http://www.monitoroutlet.com/999824.html

This one is a 38" 4:3 Ratio TV. Does anyone have any info on the quality of NETTVs?

SSJ Char

04-02-2006, 05:24 AM

has anyone with a samsung dlp ever tried to run your ps2 into a computer's video-in(assuming it has one), then video-outing the computer to the tv? you could output to either 768 through vga or if you have dvi-out, to 720p, and this will eliminate the upscaling lag from the tv, though you might get lag from the ps2->PC part. seeing how there are alot of people buying new videocards and jazz like that, they might have old videoin cards lying around, and people could probably get them for cheap. I'm planning on getting a new computer soon, so this computer can be used with my samsung dlp and i could just go get a video-in card from one of my friends, so I'm hoping this method might work some.

platinum_pinoy

04-05-2006, 09:24 PM

fLoE

04-12-2006, 04:58 AM

wow..i cant believe ive never seen this post..i bought a samsung dlp over a year ago and have been plagued with this problem ever since..and ive been looking for a solution ever since too..cant believe i never checked in here....veryyyyyyy good post fubar tytyty

1 quick question..i got a xbox 360 the other day..as of right now it SEEMS theres no lag..but im always paranoid cuz of what happened with the other systems..theres no reason for a 360 to lag at all if its set on 720p right?

The Mullah

04-12-2006, 11:48 AM

dont think so floe. but i wanted to ask the same question myself.

i'm resigned that my Sony KDLS32A12U will lag like a mofo, but someone on another forum suggested this as a fix :

"The problem here is that he's using SCART which can only send interlaced video formats. As you say, for a 2D fighter veteran that relies so much on timing, this is going to cause problems.

What he should do is get the Xbox modified so he can switch it into NTSC video mode, hook it up with a Component cable (cheap if you look in the right places) and enable the Progressive Scan mode. There's ways of doing this on the cheap now without opening up the console.

That will bypass the TV's deinterlacer (which AFAIK has to buffer a frame or two to detect movement in the picture, and see where objects are moving to etc.) and should give lag free gaming. And it will give far, far better quality anyway. The Xbox's video output over any interlaced format, even RGB, is, well, crap.

Interestingly I've never seen any deinterlacer lagging on my old Sony (KLV-26HG2), but that could be because it's from the nearest equivalent to what is now the more expensive V-Series."
does this mean that PAL users have another hurdle in that 480p can only be out putted by using a component cable + hacking the xbox and switching it to ntsc mode? wtf i'm confused.

Phil McFly

04-12-2006, 12:23 PM

This is in the mail comming on Saturday. I have an NEC FE991 19 inch Flatscreen CRT I plan to use as my new television. Anything is better than my POS 15 year old TV that gives me a headache from such a terrible picture.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/tventertainment/tvvideoprocessors/nextvisionn6/index.htm

Anyone have any comments on this? I got 1st Party PS2, XBox, Gamecube, and the official Dreamcast VGA cable. I'll let you know what I think of it. Although I'm only trying it on a CRT.

-McFly

The Mullah

04-12-2006, 02:23 PM

"I'm not a big expert on Xbox modding but yeah, the Splinter Cell thing sounds familiar.

The reason it needs a mod is a good question. When the console is set to PAL mode, as they are out-of-the-box in Europe, you can't select Progressive or HD video modes because Microsoft were short-sighted and didn't seem to think it'd be an issue here.

The mod is needed to run any code that hasn't been approved by Microsoft - in this case, the downloadable program that changes your Xbox to make it think it's a US console (you can still run European games though, as the region lockout and video mode are different settings). Once that program has been run, the modification could be undone and the console would still act as if it had been bought in America. For that reason, I wonder if it's possible to simply swap the hard disks from the consoles, run the program, and then swap back?..."

his advice continued, i'm not sure how to go about doing this, or even whether it'll work at all. anyone got any theories as to whether this'll stop my cvs2 lagging on my lcd?

aznctguy00

04-25-2006, 10:17 PM

i love you fubarduck :lovin:

morecoffeeman

04-26-2006, 01:44 AM

fubarduck

04-26-2006, 10:42 AM

Hi, Seeing as nowhere stocks the XRGB2+ anymore and no one knows whats going on with the XRGB3, would the follow do the job?
http://www.keene.co.uk/pages/cat/13con/13F.html
http://www.js-technology.com/product_info.php?products_id=36
Thanks

Probably not. You should keep an eye on Ebay until the XRGB-3 launches, which will be very soon.

If you don't mind waiting/plan on picking up a Playstation 3, that will do the trick too as it is supposed to upscale old PS1/PS2 games do your preferred HD signal (just like X-Box 360 does with original X-Box games).

morecoffeeman

04-27-2006, 01:12 AM

Hi, thanks for the reply fubarduck but i want to use a supergun on a HD set. I guess i'll keep waiting for the XRGB3 for maybe sell up and wait for ps3 like you said!

fubarduck

04-30-2006, 04:35 PM

Hi, thanks for the reply fubarduck but i want to use a supergun on a HD set. I guess i'll keep waiting for the XRGB3 for maybe sell up and wait for ps3 like you said!

If you're wanting to use a Supergun, you'd ideally want to pick up an XRGB-2 Non-plus! Quote from NFG forum's Lawrence:

"The X-RGB2 had a special setting to drop the signal levels on JAMMA PCBs, which tend to use non-standard, overbright RGB. The 2+ does not have this option, and is a little less tolerant in its sync rates. If PCBs are going to be a large part of your gaming, I'd recommend the 2 instead of the 2+."

However, you might want to check out this thread as well:
http://nfggames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1923

This guy claims to have gotten his arcade games working just fine on the "plus" model after a quick and easy mod.

Good luck!

Saotome Kaneda

04-30-2006, 05:40 PM

They need to hurry the fuck up with the XRGB-3 so I can enjoy my T5DR kit.

morecoffeeman

05-01-2006, 11:54 AM

Thanks again for the advice, now all i need is a good diagram with pinouts on how to rewire a Euro RGB Scart to Japanese RGB. Can anyone help?

aznctguy00

05-02-2006, 04:39 PM

I got my Hori Upscan Converter 2 yesterday and it works perfectly with my 60inch Samsung DLP. No problems at all.

I never knew that this was possible until I read this thread. Thanks guys for making me able to enjoy 3rd strike on my HDTV LAGLESS WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!! :karate: :tup: :cool:

The_Prophet

05-05-2006, 12:36 AM

So I just bought a Samsung DLP the other day. I read reviews about it and I heard it was great. Obviously, I didnt read any reviews regarding playing games on it. The model is HL-R5067W and I plugged in Guitar Hero to try it out and I had a huge delay. Its pretty rough. Im not in-state at the momemt so I cant take the TV back.

I guess what I need to know is, are there any suggestions on a TV I should exchange it for? My parents have a 62" DLP and it has no lag whatsoever, so I didnt think too much about it when I bought the TV.

Instead of getting a new TV should I just get an upconverter? Ungh, I dunno. I have till the end of the month to take the TV back and get a different one.

Javi

05-05-2006, 12:12 PM

The_Prophet

05-08-2006, 05:04 PM

My model (HL-R5067W) apparently has a game mode setting, I'm out of town so I haven't been able to try it yet. You can bet it's the first thing I will do, along with trying component cables. If that doesn't work, then I'll probably get a different TV

JetEnduro

05-11-2006, 06:57 AM

If it's a more recent Samsung DLP, check to see if there is a Game Mode. That will help. Sony A10 50" is what I have - lagless and has a Game Mode. Prices are dropping as well - you can probably find one for 2000 if you do a little negotiating.
Interesting I have a KDF-E42A10 and I could feel lag when playing BMIIDX. I guess GG wasn't that noticeable since the game has a Progressive Scan option.

fubarduck

05-11-2006, 11:53 AM

Interesting I have a KDF-E42A10 and I could feel lag when playing BMIIDX. I guess GG wasn't that noticeable since the game has a Progressive Scan option.

Do you have Game Mode enabled when playing IIDX?

JetEnduro

05-11-2006, 01:07 PM

fubarduck

05-11-2006, 02:34 PM

Yeah I did use Game mode when I had my PS2 hooked up to it. I'm now using a 27" CRT. I'll try it again today though, I've gotten way better at IIDX and I should be able to tell better if there's lag or not and if it's minimal i'll bear with it lol

Let us know the results. I had a good feeling that the Game Mode did not eliminate lag, but only reduced it. I'm thinking feeding 480p to these TVs with an upscan converter is the only way to go.

JetEnduro

05-11-2006, 07:39 PM

fubarduck

05-11-2006, 08:35 PM

Just tried it right now. GG felt fine with progressive mode. IIDX..... I dropped a letter grade on every song I played. And V Light 7(i hope you know what i'm talking about) felt so weird when doing the chorus of the song. So yeah I guess an upscale box would really help. Gonna have to start looking for an XRGB-3

Thanks for that. That's more bad news for new HDTV owners. At least there is a working solution for everyone who wants to eliminate lag and not just reduce it a bit =)

I think we're all very much anticipating the XRGB-3's release now! Also, keep in mind that PS3, upon its release, will upconvert all old games to HDTV resolutions, so if you'd rather just wait it out then that is another option.

JetEnduro

05-11-2006, 08:43 PM

Well, PS3 doesn't seem to have PS/PS2 controller ports.... =(
That's my main concern

JetEnduro

05-12-2006, 10:47 AM

Master Chibi

05-12-2006, 11:07 AM

$430?

Jesus Christ Jet, that's pushing it, don't you think?

JetEnduro

05-12-2006, 12:01 PM

I got it for 150 ;D

fubarduck

05-13-2006, 07:43 AM

So... I was doing some research today and I came across Startech's VID2DVIDTV upscaler which outputs on DVI and can be set to display at 480p, 720p AND 1080i. I'm going to try it out and see what happens.
For those interested here's the site:
http://www.startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?ProductID=VID2DVIDTV&mt=Z

It's fairly expensive though so I sure as hell hope this fixes lag on my TV by outputting 720p.

ALWAYS read the fine print.

"Features: A 48 MByte frame buffer eliminates image tear/video hiccupping"

That means that the scaler is constantly buffering frames before displaying them to improve the video quality. While it might do a decent job of upscaling your movies, this product will probably have no effect on video game lag.

Regardless, let us know if it helps since you're already getting one!

JetEnduro

05-13-2006, 08:33 AM

hey for 150, I don't care lol I could use it to upscale DVD's or RPG since they don't require timing if it does show lag lol

The_Prophet

05-14-2006, 05:41 PM

If it's a more recent Samsung DLP, check to see if there is a Game Mode. That will help. Sony A10 50" is what I have - lagless and has a Game Mode. Prices are dropping as well - you can probably find one for 2000 if you do a little negotiating.

I've seen other forum posts where people have really liked this TV as well saying there's no lag. But then again, some people said the Samsung HL-R5067W doesn't lag either.

JetEnduro, so you did try the game mode and you still noticed lag? If so, then fuck. I was excited when I heard the Sony worked, now I dunno. Anyone know of any other TVs?

Here's the forum where I found other people happy with the 50" Sony LCD model:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=23816&page=2

I guess I'm just going to make a trip to BB and bring in my PS2 to test games on their TVs.

The_Prophet

05-15-2006, 08:17 PM

So here's a bit of an update:

I went to best buy today and looked at the TV's. I brought my PS2 with me and took GGXX to play. The reason I chose that game was because it also does 480p. So I was able to test both 480i and 480p modes on the TV's.

There were 3 that I were particularly interested in:

Sony KDFE42A10 ( 42" $1699.99 )
Sony KDFE50A10 ( 50" $2299.99 )
Samsung HLS5086WX ( 50" 2199.99 )

I was not running the game on any of the TVs' game modes, so it was just the standard setting. The guy at BB told me that unlike the current Samsung I have, these TV's will not forcefully upconvert the signals into a higher resolution. If it's in 480i then it will stay in 480i.

I didn't notice any lag in any of the 3 TV's I tested on interlaced or progressive mode. But, since Joe says he experiences a delay on his 42" so I dunno... I am a pretty serious gamer, I can tell if there is a delay within seconds. I'm pretty good at GGXX so it's not a matter of not being able to pull off moves or anything like that. I understand how the game works and it's frame specific timings (like for FRCs) so take this information how you will.

I haven't exchanged TVs yet because I wanted to do some digging on the net to see what other people thought of these TVs, but I thought I'd come here first and let people know what I was doing.

JetEnduro

05-15-2006, 09:22 PM

That is a lie. Sony's Grand Wegas upconvert everything to 720p. I work at an Audio/Video store and yeah that's what it does. Also notice that with GG when you choose to use Progressive Mode, Game Mode is not selectable from the TV's menu so.....

I can play Slash just fine on my 42", it's IIDX that gives me problems since that game doesn't have the option to output on 480p.

The_Prophet

05-15-2006, 09:52 PM

hmm... suggestions then? I can't really find any bad reviews on the Sony's, and the Samsung is so new there aren't many reviews for it at all.

Fantomize

05-15-2006, 10:41 PM

Just to to let you PS2 owners know ther is a PS2 hdtv converter comming out heres the websit link http://www.splitfish.com/ go to gameware and look at hdfx. It was supposedly on e3 but i have not seen any news on it anywher.

fubarduck

05-16-2006, 12:14 AM

So here's a bit of an update:

-snip-

If you go to a big retail chain like BB or Fry's, the salespeople pushing HDTVs do NOT know anything about them. They are not there because they are HDTV experts. HDTV experts will be at places that specialize in HDTV like Home Theater Store or similar professional A/V outlets. The BB/Fry's salespeople's job is simply to sell you the HDTV, no matter what. They will tell you anything if they think it will make you buy the HDTV. They work on commission. They delibirately lie to you so that they can keep their job; it's how they're trained.

That having been said, if you're doing your shopping at a retail chain, have all your homework done before you set a foot in the store, and don't even think about asking a technical question to any of the sales reps.

My suggestion would be to go for the HDTV you like that seems not to lag. When you're running the game in 480p mode, you shouldn't notice a lag anyway. If the game doesn't have 480p, use the game mode, and if that's still not acceptable you can always go for an XRGB-3 or Playstation 3 in the future. The only next-gen console that probably won't output HD is Nintendo Wii, but even that is expected to output at least 480p.

Just to to let you PS2 owners know ther is a PS2 hdtv converter comming out heres the websit link http://www.splitfish.com/ go to gameware and look at hdfx. It was supposedly on e3 but i have not seen any news on it anywher.
Interesting news. It looks like some company finally picked up on threads like this one and decided to make a commercial solution. If only I were an engineer, too, I'd have beaten them to it. I'll see if I can't dig anything up on it.

fubarduck

05-19-2006, 07:28 AM

Did some research on Splitfish's new HDFX upscaling product.

Not only will it output component video (the device will also come packaged with a component cable to hook up from the device to your HDTV) and upscale to your choice of 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p (!) . . .

But it will do so for $30. That's right, $30. I'm curious to see what it will do for just $30, but I guess we'll know soon.

The device launches on June 6th according to the Web site, so I'll have a review up as soon as I can find one in the area.

The only downside is that the device is designed ONLY for PS2 use (the device will probably have a PS2 A/V connection on one side and component video output on the other side, similar to the Hori Upscan Converter 2) but the PS2 is the only current-generation console that suffers from most HDTV lag issues.

leaveal

05-19-2006, 11:02 AM

that could be hackable for other consoles, though. i damn well hope it is.

JetEnduro

05-19-2006, 10:07 PM

So i got that upscaling box today.... no real improvement. Feels the same as if I had game mode on for IIDX. Also the picture seems to deteriorate a little bit for some reason. I didn't bother with the tweaking options that much. I'll do that when I have more time.

Fantomize

05-21-2006, 03:19 AM

Thanks for the info fubarduck. I was wondering about what resolustion it would output. And the release date is supposedly some time in August from what an email from the company had told me when they responed to my email. Although i hope is sooner though. 30 Bucks is pretty cheap.

JCL

05-21-2006, 05:50 PM

Whew!! Man am I glad I read this post. I was looking to make the jump to HD myself, those ESPN day games look so beautiful, but I am a hardcore 2d fighter and anything less than perfect is not acceptable. I currently own a 35" Sony Trinitron with a Trinitron stand. All my systems are hooked up S-video and they also run through a 600 watt Kenwood surround sound system. 3s in 5.1 is pretty awesome. Only the import xbox version has it. Anyways I'm so grateful for your post fubarduck and all the other extremely helpful posts in these forums. Truly a headquarters for hardcore gamers especially fighters. So I'm just gonna wait to see how the PS3 does with fighters. Ofcourse I hate having to go through all the stick converter hassles with new consoles but we'll see. Thanx again.

fubarduck

05-23-2006, 01:58 AM

According to Micomsoft's Web site (creators of the XRGB series), the XRGB-3 will be releasing very soon. They also revealed a new feature of the unit: a 16 Mbit Flashrom for free upgrades via a built-in USB port.

Perhaps in the future we might see some unofficial firmware releases for the DVI to output HDTV standard resolutions, or maybe even custom resolutions! This feature paves the way for the XRGB-3 to possibly become one of the cheapest and highest quality video scalers to date.

Saotome Kaneda

06-01-2006, 04:47 PM

http://shopping.yahoo.com.au/b/a/ps_14379962/127101.html

I saw this model at our on base shopping center and saw it had all the connections I could possibly need, HOWEVER, upon looking at the specs on that site it natively outputs 85 Hz. Am I off by thinking that even with an XRGB this display won't suit my needs? I'm damn close to buying this thing and while I can return it, I don't feel like having to transport it if it fucking sucks.

UPDATE: As long as I'm using my component cables on this display my PS2 works fine. EXCELLENT. Now I'll have to see how well my current analog PC input works, gotta check and see if my comp supports 85Hz.

fubarduck

06-05-2006, 06:16 PM

Now available in Japan . . . the XRGB-3.

http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-3.htm

Price: 38,640 yen (approx. $343.00)

Additionally, Splitfish's HDFX product now has a street date of August 31st, 2006.

Unfortunately, the XRGB-3 does not yet seem to be available on any import sites, but hopefully NCSX will catch up soon and start selling what a lot of people have been waiting for.

Saotome Kaneda

06-05-2006, 09:37 PM

fubarduck

06-05-2006, 09:44 PM

<3 fubarduck

It also appears that they're not accepting orders on their built in shopping site...:confused:

The text says "Soon taking pre-orders at our direct online shop".

I couldn't tell if that meant that they launched the product but that it was only available in retail stores or if it hadn't quite been launched yet. Either way, worth noting. :wgrin:

Saotome Kaneda

06-07-2006, 12:31 AM

The text says "Soon taking pre-orders at our direct online shop".

I couldn't tell if that meant that they launched the product but that it was only available in retail stores or if it hadn't quite been launched yet. Either way, worth noting. :wgrin:
Okay. I didn't bother to check what they said, all I did was go straight to their shop. lol Next time I'll actually read. =p

fubarduck

06-11-2006, 04:13 PM

New confirmed XRGB-3 release date:

7/14/06

Master Chibi

06-13-2006, 12:00 PM

JetEnduro

06-13-2006, 12:09 PM

I was playing GG the other day on my 42" and now I DID notice lag on it even with 480p enabled D:

Saotome Kaneda

06-15-2006, 09:05 AM

So as of now there's nothing I could purchase that would do away with the lag (that say, I could buy and get within two weeks ;p)?

We have a Samsung 42" plasma TV, I'll get the exact model later tonight~
My Hitachi, using component cables, does not lag while I play Shin Onimusha, and definitely doesn't when I play SFAA in Progressive Scan mode. If only Shin Onimusha kept Prog Scan mode...;_; I dunno why they dropped it. =x
But once again, like in Fubar's original post, BRING YOUR PS2 AND TEST GAME TO THE STORE AND PLAY BEFORE YOU BUY. I noticed when I played SFAA at the store on this TV using S-Video that shit lagged like a mofo. If I didn't have component already(and with me at the time), I would've never bought this screen.

fubarduck

06-15-2006, 03:38 PM

http://gear.ign.com/articles/712/712352p1.html

A fairly new article by IGN Gear which actually tackles the HDTV Game Lag issue pretty accurately this time around. A good read, and is written in a way so that it's easy to understand without losing any valuable information. Gets my seal of approval this time :wink:

Finally, a hardware solution has been pioneered by intrepid and committed gamers on the internet that specifically targets the lag produced in up-converting 480i signals.

Shoryuken.com : Intrepid and committed gamers!

maelstrom218

06-19-2006, 02:28 PM

Alright, I've decided to invest in a widescreen flat-panel TV specifically for gaming, and I'm a bit concerned about how the lag issue will pan out--I play Super Smash Brothers Melee competitively (or try to) so even a little lag is unacceptable.

Here's the TV in question: a Samsung 23" Flat-Panel LCD HDTV Monitor, Model: LNS2352WX/XAA (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7679586&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat31800050025&id=1134703132256). I plan on using this TV in conjunction with a Cube + component cables in 480p, and a Wii + component cables in 480p (when it comes out). Just a few questions:

1) Will there be lag involved in when I display 480p games on a 720p LCD HDTV? Logic says no, but I'm not so sure.

2) Is the lag from upscaling (i.e. converting 480i/480p signal to 720p) solely due to the HDTV in question, or is the lag partially caused by the console itself?

The reason why I ask this is because I'm planning on taking my Cube + component cable/S-video cable + SSBM to Best Buy and testing out an HDTV, and I'm wondering if this is an accurate indicator for how the HDTV will perform (lag/speed-wise) with the Wii--of course, this comparison will be accurate only if lag is the sole result of upscaling from the HDTV, and not coming from the console itself. (N00bish question I know, but I know nothing of technology).

3) How do games perform on LCDs in general? Is there too much blurring/ghosting for gaming to be comfortable in general?

So yeah, any help would be much appreciated.

ChairHome

06-21-2006, 08:10 AM

fubarduck

06-21-2006, 11:30 AM

1) Will there be lag involved in when I display 480p games on a 720p LCD HDTV? Logic says no, but I'm not so sure.

Logic should tell you "yes" until you can prove otherwise by testing the HDTV in question in-store. Anytime there is upscaling, there is a possibility for lag introduced by the HDTV. You did read the FAQ, right?

2) Is the lag from upscaling (i.e. converting 480i/480p signal to 720p) solely due to the HDTV in question, or is the lag partially caused by the console itself?

The reason why I ask this is because I'm planning on taking my Cube + component cable/S-video cable + SSBM to Best Buy and testing out an HDTV, and I'm wondering if this is an accurate indicator for how the HDTV will perform (lag/speed-wise) with the Wii--of course, this comparison will be accurate only if lag is the sole result of upscaling from the HDTV, and not coming from the console itself. (N00bish question I know, but I know nothing of technology).
Solely due to the HDTV in question. The console does not cause any lag, it is simply outputting the same signal it would to any TV. You cannot just test any LCD HDTV though and expect the results to carry over for the one you're thinking of purchasing--you must test the particular HDTV in question.

3) How do games perform on LCDs in general? Is there too much blurring/ghosting for gaming to be comfortable in general?
Most people don't complain about blurring or ghosting on modern LCDs anymore. I'd say look for a 12ms or lower response time as a rule of thumb, but if you don't notice anything on an 18ms or 22ms screen (I don't) then don't lose any sleep over it.

I'm thinking about going for the Hori Upscan Converter 2, but I heard that it does not support Progressive Scan. I guess you can't win em all. I guess its better to have no lag then to have a prettier game...? Thanks for everyone who contributes to this thread.

Previously, there have been no VGA boxes that support Progressive Scan (including the XRGB-2+). If you have a progressive scan game, you can already output the signal to a VGA monitor given the proper cabling, so manufacturers never saw a need for this.

However, the XRGB-3 DOES support Progressive Scan . . . as well as 1080i and 720p. It definitely seems like this product will be the ultimate solution in playing your game consoles on a computer monitor or laggy HDTV.

kbtoyz902

06-22-2006, 08:49 PM

The current Sony SXRD models also have the game mode - only works on 480i sources (of course).

Too bad it can't take 1080p signals :\

If you go to a big retail chain like BB or Fry's, the salespeople pushing HDTVs do NOT know anything about them. They are not there because they are HDTV experts. HDTV experts will be at places that specialize in HDTV like Home Theater Store or similar professional A/V outlets. The BB/Fry's salespeople's job is simply to sell you the HDTV, no matter what. They will tell you anything if they think it will make you buy the HDTV. They work on commission. They delibirately lie to you so that they can keep their job; it's how they're trained.

I work at Circuit city, and can only agree with people now knowing about them. Out of the 16 guys in my entertainment department, maybe only four to six really are into home theater. BB isn't commission based, and is why they get a bad rep for customer service. Also if anything, both CC and BB will just keep you from buying a TV if you don't buy attachments rather than lie to close an incomplete sale.

Good post fubarduck. Definitely a must read for those shopping around for a new HD set.

HDCRT's(BTW, there is an HDCRT that surpasses 34", this high end video brand makes a 38" for $5G's)> every other HD display, and this is coming from someone who adores the new 1080p DLP's. It sucks that DLP is one of the best big screen technologies out there, but really sucks with analog signals. I hope PS3 can solve the lag issues, and fix up video. It would be great to replay some RPG's in 1080i(my TV's native res).

Out of curiousity, what gaming/entertainment setup do you run Fubarduck? You really know you're stuff and it would be interesting to hear what you use.

ethnic_scrap

06-24-2006, 09:52 AM

I'm thinking about going for the Hori Upscan Converter 2, but I heard that it does not support Progressive Scan. I guess you can't win em all. I guess its better to have no lag then to have a prettier game...? Thanks for everyone who contributes to this thread.

Has anybody else got the Hori Upscan Converter? I too am thinking about getting it, just wanted to hear any problems/issues/props from other people that have tried it out.

ChairHome

06-26-2006, 01:06 PM

Well, I just went ahead and picked one up on ebay for about $50. I figured that was a decent price and just went for it. I can't afford the $200+ for the better upscan converters. I'll let you know how it is...

DH020

07-04-2006, 12:12 PM

NEW 32" SAMSUNG LE32R74BDX FREEVIEW HD READY LCD TV

buy one these their lag free :tup:

catchafire

07-04-2006, 09:50 PM

Out of curiousity, what gaming/entertainment setup do you run Fubarduck? You really know you're stuff and it would be interesting to hear what you use.

I'm curious to know this as well. :sweat:

catchafire

07-08-2006, 11:29 AM

Saotome Kaneda

07-09-2006, 05:04 PM

Well, tell me what you think of the VIZIO P50HDM - 50" HD READY PLASMA MONITOR

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/vizio.html

It has a really nice buying price (now 2K), but i'm not sure how it will play games and what not. Does anyone have this monitor?
It looks good all things considered, but I suggest you ask them directly what their display lag is, although it shouldn't be a problem if it accepts Component input(and you have the cables you need for your systems). That's a damn good price, too bad it would be hell getting it way out here in Okinawa or I'd sell my current display ASAP.

ChairHome

07-13-2006, 10:45 AM

So, I've been using the Hori Upscan Converter 2 for a few weeks now, and its pretty good. It does not completely eliminate the lag, however. I tested it using an eyetoy game and there's like a 1/4 sec delay. In my opinion, this is tolerable, though I haven't really played and timing sensitive fighting games on it. I've also tried Guitar Hero on it and the delay is still noticeable. It cuts the lag down a lot, but don't expect it to completely eliminate it, at least not on a Samsung DLP. The one thing that I didn't expect (cause I'm an idiot) was that its essentially a VGA box, so you have to have an HDTV that has a VGA/PC input on it. The graphics come out clean, but I think it depends on the game you play. No progressive scan makes me frown.

Lethargy

07-21-2006, 11:52 AM

A little confused here about the XRGB-3 box. I see that it has DVI output, and supports 525i, 525p, 1125i and 750p, and supports resolutions of 1024×768 / 1280×1024 / 1600×1200. Now, my main gaming TV is a Sony 30" widescreen CRT HDTV (which I'm not at home right now so don't know the exact model number, but I believe they only make 2 HDTV's that are CRT, and the only difference is size). Anyway, I'm not sure I'm understanding things correctly, but I would use the DVI output of the XRGB-3 box into the HDMI input of my TV? I know my TV doesn't have a VGA input, so that isn't an option.

Now my main question is, does the XRGB-3 only support those high resolutions, or are those ones that are added on since the XRGB-2? My main concern is that with the XRGB-3, if I cant get it to output to my TV at 640x480, all my games are going to be stretched out widescreen, as the HDMI input on the tv doesn't allow you to change the aspect ratio of what is on the screen, it just automatically locks to whatever the incomming signal is. Am I wrong in thinking this?

I was really considering getting this box, as most of my game collection lately has been older systems (3DO, CD-I, PC Engine, etc.), and some of those games get pretty bad in regards to lagging.

Saotome Kaneda

07-22-2006, 10:15 AM

DVI is primarily a PC digital video output type, and has nothing to do with HDMI. You should have a DVI(DVI-I(like most PCs) or digital input RGB(like my HDTV says for the slot)) port on your TV if you plan on using that. If not, you'll have to find cables that convert either digital or analog RGB to Component/S-Vid/whatever you can put in your TV.

Once again, the only OUTPUTS are Digital and Analog RGB. Plan accordingly.

Lethargy

07-22-2006, 12:07 PM

poonage

07-22-2006, 02:50 PM

I do have a DVI to HDMI cable, as I already have my PC connected to my TV with it. My understanding is that they are basically the same thing other than HDMI can carry audio also. What I really need to know I guess is if the output of the XRGB-3 can output at 640x480, as I can't change the aspect ratio on the TV itself when connected through the HDMI input, as it locks to whatever the incomming signals ratio would be. So with the way I have things set up now with my PC connected to my TV, I have to change the resolution in Windows to 640x480 if I don't want to play games stretched out wide. I'm trying to find out if the XRGB-3 can do the same thing with my consoles, as I hate playing games stretched out.

I'm starting to think that a digital connection wouldn't be the way to go, as the TV locks itself to whatever the resolution of any incomming digital signal is. That being said, is it safe to assume that with the XRGB-3 box, running analog out to the TV from the XRGB-3 with some sort of RGB to S-Video or RGB to Composite, etc., would help me avoid lag? Sorry if I'm comming off confusing, just trying to pan this all out before I decide whether I go for this box, or just end up buying another TV to have around for older stuff.

Hey Lethargy,

According to the XRGB-3 Website at Micomsoft.co.jp it says that the new beta firmware you can download (and flash via the USB port) has 640x480 output support (although it says this feature is still in beta) so you should be able to play your games unstretched.

I think you should try your HDMI to DVI cable to hook it up first, it seems like it would work. If it doesn't, you could always just get a VGA to Component video adapter (you definitely can't output a Composite or S-Video signal since the highest those signals can go is 480i).

GOLDN-NZ

07-23-2006, 04:42 PM

FUBARDUCK, sups bro, give me some advice here:

hows it G, you gotta hella of post about hd n lcd tv's. great info

heres where i need your help/opinion my friend

i wanna be able to use my dreamcast/mvc2 on a future HD tv and plasma

what are my options and what do you think my best route is to be 0% lag free when i play mvc2 on these hd n lcd tv's. and cost is not an issue, i don't mind spending couple hundred dollars + here

thanks a ton bro, would like to meet you in person one day. i'll be at evo this year G, holla back homey

kadashx

07-24-2006, 05:05 AM

kbtoyz902

07-24-2006, 08:29 AM

^Yes.

For the DC/MVC2 guy, there should be some sort of VGA adaptor that'll run for around $200 that you can get.

poonage

07-24-2006, 02:09 PM

well, does that mean i can't put it directly in my pc screen which only has a VGA input?

No. The XRGB-3 has both a DVI and a VGA output built in, so you can definitely use your PC Monitor if it has a VGA cable.

what are my options and what do you think my best route is to be 0% lag free when i play mvc2 on these hd n lcd tv's. and cost is not an issue, i don't mind spending couple hundred dollars + here

If you must use an HDTV/LCD TV, your best option would be the XRGB-3 since it can probably output a signal that matches an LCD's native display (the XRGB-3's output resolutions are 1024×768/1280×1024/1600×1200, so for a perfect 1:1 pixel mapping you could find an LCD HDTV with one of these resolutions). On a non-LCD HDTV, 1024x768 should display as 720p but you should test this before making a purchase.

However (and on one knows this for sure yet, since no one has reviewed the XRGB-3 yet) since HD signals force most HDTVs to Widescreen only, you would probably be forced to play MVC2 stretched with this combination. The XRGB-3 unit itself probably does not have an option to correct the aspect ratio, since it is designed for PC monitor usage and not HDTV usage. Therefore, if you don't want to play stretched, your only option is probably just to play the game in 480p and find a set with acceptable or minimal lag while in 480p.

You can either purchase a CRT HDTV made by Sony for example which actually supports a native 480p signal in addition to HD (which would have no lag), or you can purchase a display with minimal lag in 480p (which you would have to test until you found a satisfactory set).

That having been said, if you decide to go the 480p route and the only system you care about is Dreamcast, a much cheaper and better route would be to purchase the Dreamcast VGA cable and hook it up to the VGA port on your HDTV (or through a VGA to Component video adaptor). The Dreamcast VGA cable already outputs a 640x480 (480p) signal without any external boxes needing to do extra work, and can be had for less than $20.

Hopefully once more people get their hands on XRGB-3's and better HDTVs are released, someone will be able to give you a clearer and less complicated answer!

GOLDN-NZ

07-24-2006, 04:30 PM

POONAGE--thank you so much my friend (on my knees thanking you ali baba style ;)

still a few more questions just to clear things up

1) is this the dreamcast resolution 640x480 (480p)? or is it 480i ?
so mvc2 is at this resolution /\ /\?

2) you said sony have HDTV at that support native resolution of 480p, can you point out a site or some models that have this?

2a) so if a tv supports thsi 480p resolution, there will be ZERO lag right...?

3) if i use this XRGB-3 converter on an hd/lcd tv that has resolution of one of these-- 1024×768/1280×1024/1600×1200-- will this converter properly step up 480p so there will be NO LAG???? this is my main concern here my friend, the lag, just can't have it.

4) are there HD/crt's that have aspect ratio of 4:3 as a choice instead of 16:9 that i see all around???

damn too much if and my brain is all twisted, lol

anyways thank bro

poonage

07-24-2006, 04:54 PM

still a few more questions just to clear things up

1) is this the dreamcast resolution 640x480 (480p)? or is it 480i ?
so mvc2 is at this resolution /\ /\?

2) you said sony have HDTV at that support native resolution of 480p, can you point out a site or some models that have this?

2a) so if a tv supports thsi 480p resolution, there will be ZERO lag right...?

3) if i use this XRGB-3 converter on an hd/lcd tv that has resolution of one of these-- 1024×768/1280×1024/1600×1200-- will this converter properly step up 480p so there will be NO LAG???? this is my main concern here my friend, the lag, just can't have it.
1) There are three different cables for Dreamcast: Composite (yellow/white/red), S-Video, and VGA. The highest composite and S-Video can output is 480i, so your signal with either of those cables will be 480i from the Dreamcast.

With the VGA cable, it can output a PC resolution of 640x480 which coincidentally will display on an EDTV or HDTV as 480p. The Dreamcast can output this signal without any extra work as long as you have the cable.

2) Yes. Some models include the XBR910, the XBR960, and HS420 off the top of my head. The downside is they only go up to 34" in size, and since they're CRT, they are very big and heavy at these sizes.

2a) Make sure you don't confuse yourself--just because an HDTV supports 480p doesn't mean it has it as a native resolution. Most HDTVs "support" 480p, but what they mean is that they take the signal and upscale it to 1080i or 720p (or whatever the HDTV's native resolution is). So the answer is, right: if you are outputting a 480p signal, and displaying it on an HDTV that supports 480p as a native resolution then you will definitely not have lag.

If you're outputting a 480p signal and displaying it on an HDTV that supports 480p but doesn't have it as a native resolution, there may be lag and you will have to test the specific HDTV in question. I think LCD or Plasma is probably better than DLP with this.

3) While no one has adequately reviewed the XRGB-3 yet, it seems like it WILL be able to upconvert from 480i/480p to these higher resolutions with no lag just by going from Micomsoft's track record. I highly doubt this company would release a box that caused lag on consumer's PC monitors, but take this with a grain of salt until there are some solid reviews on the Internet.

GOLDN-NZ

07-25-2006, 12:12 PM

POONAGE, bradda need some more help here, :(

i went out to circuit city last night and picked up a DVD RECORDER (panasonic brand) i wanted to record MVC2 matches on disc instead of VHS. anyways the problem is that hooking the MVC2 to the DVD recorder to the TV is that there is terrible LAG when playing MVC2!!!! sheeeets i pissed cause i even asked the rep if a resolution of 480i (dreamcast s-video) is feed to the recorder will this be its output resolution or does it have some other higher standard (liek 720p, 1080i, etc) that is its output, sales rep told me whats fed in is what feeds out, BULLASHIT!

anyways bottome line is that there is major lag, the DVD recorder even has options to choose the display as it was 480i 480p, neither of these worked. so i assume that the output resolution is different. man i'm bummed cause i gotta go return it and try another one. when i use a VHS (dreamcast hooked to VHS) there is no lag works perfect, but the image resolution is quite poor. my goal is just to record in s-video quality on a disc

can you give me some advice as to what DVD recorderS won't lag when i hook up a dreamcast to it to record matches

also i've heard about a thing called direct capture or something, can you give me some more info about that and what equipment or things i need to set that up

thanks a ton bro, (i'll prolly open a new post about this too) hit me up asap my friend ;)

poonage

07-25-2006, 06:04 PM

i went out to circuit city last night and picked up a DVD RECORDER (panasonic brand) i wanted to record MVC2 matches on disc instead of VHS. anyways the problem is that hooking the MVC2 to the DVD recorder to the TV is that there is terrible LAG when playing MVC2!!!! sheeeets i pissed cause i even asked the rep if a resolution of 480i (dreamcast s-video) is feed to the recorder will this be its output resolution or does it have some other higher standard (liek 720p, 1080i, etc) that is its output, sales rep told me whats fed in is what feeds out, BULLASHIT!
Actually, DVD recorders DO output the same thing they input, typically. The lag on DVD recorders isn't caused by any HD-related issues, but rather just because DVD recorders have a frame buffer to ensure that no frames go uncaptured.

can you give me some advice as to what DVD recorderS won't lag when i hook up a dreamcast to it to record matches
Unfortunately, you are pretty much guaranteed lag when you run anything through a DVD Recorder. In the past when recording matches to DVD, Evolution used special cables and boxes to get the consoles to dual-output, like this:

PS2 --> S-Video cable --> S-Video signal splitter --> DVD Recorder
PS2 --> S-Video cable --> S-Video signal splitter --> TV

Rather than search for a DVD recorder with no lag (I've never heard of one that didn't) your best bet would be to try for the above or a similar setup. You would just need a box to double/split the S-Video signal, and that can be had for <$100.

also i've heard about a thing called direct capture or something, can you give me some more info about that and what equipment or things i need to set that up

The only thing I could think you might be referring to is capturing directly to a PC after which you can use any video-editing software to burn the footage to disc. However, capturing through a PC will still give you lag on the PC's screen. The only way to capture and play at the same time with no lag (no matter what capturing method you use) is to split the S-Video signal as shown above.

GOLDN-NZ

07-25-2006, 07:25 PM

POONAGE, omg that is such a wonderful answer/solution

crap, i just bought two different brand dvd recorders to see if there better... ...well looks like i'll be returning them too

so please correct me if i'm wrong, but would this be the correct setup up for dreamcast with a s-video splitter?:

Dreamcast --> S-Video cable --> S-Video signal splitter --> DVD Recorder
.................................................. ..............................--> TV

WILL THIS WORK??

ok i've been looking at the "Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter" I want to use my dreamcast with its vga cable + the 9A60, then will use component cables to the back of my tv. (tv is a sony vega with component inputs) will this work??? and will the picture resolution be better? also do i really even need the dreamcast vga cable when the 9A60 comes with a 6ft male to male vga cable?

i'm assuming that the current s-video is putting out 480i now, if i use the 9A60 w/component cables the resolution will be at 480p right? will my sony vega show the difference since it has component inputs? please correct me if i'm wrong or mistaken here

also where is a good/easy place to pick up this s-video splitter??

I owe you big time for all your valuable info
thanks bro

poonage

07-25-2006, 07:51 PM

Dreamcast --> S-Video cable --> S-Video signal splitter --> DVD Recorder
.................................................. ..............................--> TV

WILL THIS WORK??
Yes.

ok i've been looking at the "Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter" I want to use my dreamcast with its vga cable + the 9A60, then will use component cables to the back of my tv. (tv is a sony vega with component inputs) will this work??? and will the picture resolution be better? also do i really even need the dreamcast vga cable when the 9A60 comes with a 6ft male to male vga cable?
You would still need the Dreamcast VGA cable because a VGA cable does not plug into the Dreamcast! You would have to plug in the Dreamcast VGA cable to the Dreamcast, which would then give you a VGA connector to hook up to either a male to male VGA cable or a PC monitor.

i'm assuming that the current s-video is putting out 480i now, if i use the 9A60 w/component cables the resolution will be at 480p right? will my sony vega show the difference since it has component inputs? please correct me if i'm wrong or mistaken here
Yes, your Dreamcast would be outputting 480p, but Sony Wega TVs do not support 480p signals via the Component inputs! Sony Wega is a SDTV (Standard Definition TV, can only accept and display 480i) and you would need either an EDTV (which goes up to 480p) or an HDTV for that combination to work. For that reason, there is virtually no difference whether you use S-Video cables or Component cables for a Sony Wega. Component video is still SLIGHTLY higher quality than S-Video in 480i, but we're talking very small differences since you're not going up to 480p. It's nothing like the jump from Composite to S-Video, so you're probably better off sticking with S-Video for the Wega. Dreamcast doesn't go higher than S-Video anyway, so you've already got the best possible cable for your TV. The Wega will also never exhibit HDTV gaming lag because it isn't an HDTV.

also where is a good/easy place to pick up this s-video splitter??
Ebay, Google, Fry's, Best Buy, Radio Shack.

GOLDN-NZ

07-25-2006, 08:11 PM

poonage

07-25-2006, 08:36 PM

POONAGE, thanks for such quick reply

i just thought using Audio Authority 9A60 VGA cable with the dc vga would give an "edge" on resolution since my sony tv has the component inputs. i noticed a difference on the ps2 using s-video and component cables though. oh well just a wild idea though.

but hey atleast for future gaming this 9A60 may prove itself useful, but i think i'm gonna try this route just for kicks and see if how much difference there is :)

much mahalos poonage ;)
off to radioshack now

In case you did not understand, you cannot use the 9A60 with the DC VGA cable on your TV at all. The Dreamcast would output 480p ONLY and your Sony Wega cannot even accept that signal, so you would not get a signal at all on your TV. Your only options are Composite and S-Video.

FMJaguar

07-25-2006, 09:13 PM

I didn't see where it mentioned which sony wega he had, there are SD and HD variants. he's right in that the SD wega does not accept anything other than... SD (480i), but there are HD wegas with component in, and those components take HD fine.

Also, The official S-video splitter of the FGC can be found here:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103065&cp=&pg=2&origkw=video+splitter&kw=video+splitter&parentPage=search

it should also convert to composite if needed.

Lethargy

07-25-2006, 10:24 PM

FMJ is right about the Wega... I have a Sony Wega HD CRT television as my main gaming TV, model kv-30hs420. After doing a little more research on my television before taking the plunge on the XRGB-3, I did a little research and found that...

1. My TV has native resolutions of both 480p and 1080i.
2. The XRGB-3 doesn't output any resolution out of the box that my TV would support.

All the resolutions that the XRGB-3 output are too high for the TV, and cause massive amounts of flickering and shaking of the picture on screen. I tested this out with my PC's video card, setting the output to resolutions the XRGB-3 does stock, and none of them work with my particular Sony HD CRT. Which is too bad, because I was kind of looking forward to getting the box, as I notice lag on games that require perfect timing (Street Fighter, Dragons Lair, Space Ace, etc.) on my older systems. I will say though that compared to my other TV, which is a Sony LCD screen, it is way better in regards to response time. Someone mentioned a firmware download for the XRGB-3 that makes it support 640x480 output, but I didn't find it looking on the Micomsoft website. It would be cool if that does actuallly exist though, because it would basically solve my problem of not being able to buy the box, as my TV plays anything at 480p perfectly it seems.

I'm guessing the XRGB-3 is geared more towards LCD/Plasma type displays than CRT displays, as they seem to be able to handle higher resolutions than CRT displays...?

If any of this info strikes anyone here as wrong, feel free to correct me, as I'm new to trying to understand the whole HDTV lag issue, but so far from doing some reseach this is the conclusion I've come to in regards to my particular case.

poonage

07-26-2006, 03:18 AM

FMJ is right about the Wega...
Thanks for the correction. Didn't know there were HD Wegas.

Also, the 480p add-on update can be downloaded from the XRGB-3's official page here:

http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb3_update_setup_v1_02.exe

And the Japanese PDF explaining that this update adds 480p (line doubling) functionality can be found here:

http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb3_lined_b1m.pdf

Gen-An

07-26-2006, 05:27 AM

Yes, your Dreamcast would be outputting 480p, but Sony Wega TVs do not support 480p signals via the Component inputs! Sony Wega is a SDTV (Standard Definition TV, can only accept and display 480i) and you would need either an EDTV (which goes up to 480p) or an HDTV for that combination to work. For that reason, there is virtually no difference whether you use S-Video cables or Component cables for a Sony Wega. Component video is still SLIGHTLY higher quality than S-Video in 480i, but we're talking very small differences since you're not going up to 480p. It's nothing like the jump from Composite to S-Video, so you're probably better off sticking with S-Video for the Wega. Dreamcast doesn't go higher than S-Video anyway, so you've already got the best possible cable for your TV. The Wega will also never exhibit HDTV gaming lag because it isn't an HDTV.

I'd have to disagree about YPbPr (component) vs Y/C (S-Video). I've noticed a considerable difference in both clarity and color definition when moving from the latter to the former on every TV i've tried it on (all Sony WEGA TVs btw). As for the Dreamcast, it can output 15kHz RGB (you'd need a 21-pin RGB cable) but not all games support it unfortunately, though you can download patched versions of the games that add it. I have my DC hooked up to my 27" WEGA via RGB going thru the Micomsoft XSelect-D4, whcih is connected to the TV by means of a D-Terminal to YPbPr cable. It beats using S-Video hands down.

GOLDN-NZ

07-26-2006, 12:23 PM

In case you did not understand, you cannot use the 9A60 with the DC VGA cable on your TV at all. The Dreamcast would output 480p ONLY and your Sony Wega cannot even accept that signal, so you would not get a signal at all on your TV. Your only options are Composite and S-Video.

I'm a little confused here my friend. I don't think i have a high def tv, but my tv does have component inputs in the back, so does this mean my tv can ouput a resolution of 480p? (component inputs + sdtv = 480p resolution?)

if the answer is no ( not 480P) then why does sony even have the component inputs for when s-video would get the job done? (sorry i'm a little stumbled here)

ok last night went to radio shack picked up the s-video splitter and a vga to component adapter. i hooked the dc vga cable to the dreamcast, then to the adapter. i got no image on my screen!!! maybe i did something wrong or like you said my tv can even output the new signal from the vga to component adapter. i don't know for sure?

i was thinking of ordering Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to see if it makes a difference... ...

Poonage, one more question when i hooked up the dc vga cable to the dreamcast and then hooked it up the the vga/component adapter, i noticed there are no audio cables outputing from the vga/component adapter! so i'm wondering how is sound gonna be transferred from the vga/component adapter when only those 3 component cables are going into the tv??? please explain this to me

thank you

poonage

07-26-2006, 04:11 PM

I'm a little confused here my friend. I don't think i have a high def tv, but my tv does have component inputs in the back, so does this mean my tv can ouput a resolution of 480p? (component inputs + sdtv = 480p resolution?)
Please re-read my above posts. Any input + SDTV = 480i. SDTV = 480i. You do not get 480p from a standard definition TV, 480p is called "enhanced definition" and is supported by EDTVs (up to 480p) and HDTVs (up to high def).

if the answer is no ( not 480P) then why does sony even have the component inputs for when s-video would get the job done? (sorry i'm a little stumbled here)
Because color rendering is ever-so-slightly better with Component Video in 480i (Standard Def).

ok last night went to radio shack picked up the s-video splitter and a vga to component adapter. i hooked the dc vga cable to the dreamcast, then to the adapter. i got no image on my screen!!!
Duh?

I just spent the last three posts explaining to you that it wouldn't work. The VGA adapter outputs 480p, your TV takes only 480i.

i was thinking of ordering Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to see if it makes a difference... ...
Repeating for emphasis: you can not view enhanced definition (480p) on a standard definition (480i) TV.

Poonage, one more question when i hooked up the dc vga cable to the dreamcast and then hooked it up the the vga/component adapter, i noticed there are no audio cables outputing from the vga/component adapter! so i'm wondering how is sound gonna be transferred from the vga/component adapter when only those 3 component cables are going into the tv??? please explain this to me

thank you
The Dreamcast VGA boxes have a mini-stereo jack for sound output which is supposed to hook up to your computer speakers. If you just want to feed the sound to your TV, all you need is a mini-stereo to RCA adapter from radio shack. It will be a male mini-stereo jack on one side and white/red RCA jacks for stereo sound on the other side.

GOLDN-NZ

07-27-2006, 12:51 PM

thank you poonage, sorry for making you re-itterate things again to me, but atleast now things are pretty much crystal clear

thanks bro :)

Fantomize

08-04-2006, 09:49 PM

Check out this other solution coming in september for PS2 to view it in High Def. http://www.xploder.net/products/148/Xploder-HDTV-Player.htm
The Xploder HDTV Game Player seems to sound pretty good. I think though I'll get the Splitfish HDFX at the end of August when its released. Im glad companies are finally doing something abot the PS2 lack of High Def. :)

FMJaguar

08-04-2006, 10:27 PM

elvis_a_presley

08-07-2006, 07:15 PM

That would be cool, but something tells me it'll have lag =(

http://gear.ign.com/articles/723/723551p1.html

Taking everything said there as gospel (yes, I know that's dangerous to do, especially when reading IGN and especially when anyone talks to marketing people), it looks like it could be lag free.

According to that, it's a software solution that coerces the PS2 to send both frames inside a field in one hit. There's no hardware upscaling that occurs (which is where most lag comes from).

At any rate, I'll be following it closely. For the price, it could be a great solution for both HDTV users and people who want to play 2D PS2 games without damned ugly interlacing (why, Sony... WHY???).

kadashx

08-08-2006, 12:39 AM

well it's still better than us poor neo geo fans who will have to buy the xrgb3...
by the way there quite a difference of price between play asia and ncsx...weird..

elvis_a_presley

08-08-2006, 03:54 AM

well it's still better than us poor neo geo fans who will have to buy the xrgb3...