Are Ken/Yun/Chun top tier without their supers? [Archive]

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Ultimo

07-13-2005, 05:05 PM

If Yun weren't to use SA3, Chun SA2 and Ken SA3 - do you think they're still considered top tier? Or does the super make the char?

#reload

07-13-2005, 05:10 PM

yun, yes
ken, probably not
chun, yes

EDIT: holy shit, i just realized my answers were backwards
yun - wouldn't be top tier
ken - would be top tier
chun - wouldn't be top tier

Zigmover21

07-13-2005, 05:15 PM

Without SA3 I'd say Yun's even worse than Yang. Damage goes to shit. Same with Chun. Without SA2, how does she hurt you? Ken is the only one out of those 3 who doesn't lose all his damage without his best super.

MrQuotes

07-13-2005, 05:28 PM

yes to all but chun

starboy

07-13-2005, 05:33 PM

yun - yes
chun - no
ken - no

Ken is always a threat, regardless of super. Chun has the best ground game in the game. Yun would suck without Genei Jin. He wouldn't SUCK, but he'd def. wouldn't be top tier.

EmericaRR

07-13-2005, 05:35 PM

Yun without meter is not scary at all. I'd say he would be a solid mid tier at best. Chun gets most of her damage by kara-throws because her oponent is too scared to attack back in fear of the super. Well that and b+fierce. Without it she would just be another Elena IMO. Maybe a little better. Ken is still a beast even without meter.

Chupacabra

07-13-2005, 05:52 PM

SiLLiEMutAfuKA

07-13-2005, 05:56 PM

To all the ones that answered, I think you mean the opposite for all of them.

I'd say the only one that could be TT without super is Ken, Yun is nothing without GJ and Chun is based on throws and supers...so I don't really know.

f_man

07-13-2005, 06:00 PM

nes, nes, yo.

Yuk_Fai

07-13-2005, 06:15 PM

Ken: Yes... his j.mk cross-up is still there, as well as the usual shoto mix-ups
Chun: Yes... her pokes, cr.jp, and kara-throw is still a threat
Yun: No... can't really land big damage even in punishemnt situations. Dive kick is still there, but lack of the ability to deal damage/take damage brings him down to mid-tier.

(THE) Geese

07-13-2005, 06:22 PM

Is this a joke thread? The obvious answer is:

Ken remains a threat...the others blow.

Wtf can Yun and Chun do without meter? The damage they do without super is based on the threat of their SUPERS...sooo...think about that.

polarity

07-13-2005, 06:48 PM

Donkus

07-13-2005, 06:48 PM

(THE) Geese

07-13-2005, 06:52 PM

Bear in mind that if they didn't have those supers, people would have probably put more time into finding workable strategies for their other supers, so it's possible there's something we haven't considered....although it does seem likely to me that Ken would be the only threat :/.

Nah man, give the top players some fucking credit. Guys don't just go robo-mode for 5 years and completely neglect good shit. If it hasn't been found by now, it's prolly not there. The only example (that i can think of) which contradicts what I'm saying is when ppl discovered Sent's c. fierce unblockable. That shit was discovered years after Sent had been dominating the scene..

locoghoul

07-13-2005, 06:54 PM

actually, yun's sa2 is pretty good but pales in comparison with gj. still, he wouldnt be top tier since he takes a lot of damage and wouldnt be able to do much pressure without gj.
ken would still be top tier
chun would be mid tier at best, she has good pokes but her turtling goes to shit ih she doesnt have the sa2 to punish/threat the opponent.

Gaijinblaze

07-13-2005, 07:19 PM

polarity

07-13-2005, 07:32 PM

Nah man, give the top players some fucking credit. Guys don't just go robo-mode for 5 years and completely neglect good shit. If it hasn't been found by now, it's prolly not there. The only example (that i can think of) which contradicts what I'm saying is when ppl discovered Sent's c. fierce unblockable. That shit was discovered years after Sent had been dominating the scene..

I know it's common for people to fuck around with low tier characters and find stuff that brings them up, but I don't know of anyone that bothers fucking around with weaker SAs. Granted, maybe this is just because the game's so old, but it does seem possible, if unlikely, that stronger strats could be found.

Much more likely though is that most/some people here don't know much about playing the top tier characters with different SAs at a high level. I know I sure as hell don't.

Serpent

07-13-2005, 08:24 PM

Ken might be the best out of the 3 without supers, but I don't think he would be top tier. He'd have no useful links, and c.MK at a good distance wouldn't have anything to follow it up with, unlike Ryu who has his hurricane. Ken would have to be up close 95% of the time to do good damage, which is risky. Plus he has no kara throw.

I think Dudley, Urien, and Makoto would be far better than the current 3 if they didn't have their supers.

Huh? st strong st fierce DP would still work, as would cr forward DP kara DP. Ken has a high hit-to-damage ratio, quite possibly the highest in the game. Well, thats not true, Hugo is stronger, but Ken is up there and definitely above the other two. Put me in the Ken is still good and the other 2 blow. If nobody has any supers at all, Ken owns pretty much everyone except possibly Hugo, and I think Alex would be a pretty solid char. If you get to use supers but not each of their best supers, ie, Urien is losing Aegis, Yun loses GJ etc., then I think Ken still comes out on top because his Shoryureppa is still a very good super that can be used much like SAIII, just doesn't charge as fast (does considerably more damage however). Remember, parry would still be in there, and Ken is good because he can get around the parry. He is a threat with or without meter, whereas Yun and Chun basically rely almost completely on their supers to scare people.

Also, Ken does have a kara throw. I use the b+forward move, most people use the RH I believe.

(THE) Geese

07-13-2005, 08:35 PM

Nah man. I think Dudley is the best character without super, hands down. He has (by far) the highest hit:damage and hit:stun ratios in the game.

Archer V2.0

07-13-2005, 08:38 PM

FusionITR

07-13-2005, 08:44 PM

Best character w/ no super would be Dudley.

Dudley is the best character period.

(THE) Geese

07-13-2005, 08:54 PM

are you guy's idiots?

Yun with SA anything but III gets fucking owned.

Ken with SAII is decent

Chun with SAI is pretty good.

So Chun- Yes
Ken - Maybe
Yun - HELL FUCKING NO. His super FUCKING MAKES HIM.

If you're talking NO supers:

Chun - Yes, she will out prioritize you forever, and you will have nothing to punish her whiffs with
Ken - His rushdown might work, but probably not
Yun - NO WAY.

Best character w/ no super would be Dudley.

this whore speaks truth...cept when he says Chun is good with no supers. All you have to do is random parry guess her and she's fucked. Also, this discussion is about NO super, right? Cause Chun SA1 and Ken SA1/2 and Yun SA1/2 are pretty good.

Chupacabra

07-13-2005, 08:57 PM

this whore speaks truth...cept when he says Chun is good with no supers. All you have to do is random parry guess her and she's fucked. Also, this discussion is about NO super, right? Cause Chun SA1 and Ken SA1/2 and Yun SA1/2 are pretty good.

whats the difference between that and doing a "random parry guess" and fucking someone else up?

nothingxs

07-13-2005, 09:04 PM

Ken still hurts even if he doesn't have access to SA3. SA1 Ken can still be like "hey look, I have a gay combo and a lot of bar". He does a ton of solid damage even without the super thanks to his great footsies and the lovely air EX Hurricane Kick.

Chun-Li would lose the "I can hit this off a c.MK and absolutely rape you -- and I can have two of these motherfuckers" factor of SA2 for the "I can still c.MK you and land this bullshit, but I can only do it once and then I have to zone the fuck out of you for a long time" factor of SA1.

Yun would... uh, get raped real nasty. The only reason he's so fucking scary is because he goes into "I HIT YOU OUT OF ANYTHING AND THUS CONTROL THIS MATCH" mode... very, very often. Without that, it's like playing Yang, except he doesn't have EX Mantis Slashes or anything else quite as cool.

Duy Nguyen

07-13-2005, 09:40 PM

Yun - No
Ken - Yes
Chun - Maybe

Yun in my opinion is worthless without Genei-Jin, because you would lose the fear of Genei-Jin and he won't be able to land any big damage on you. Almost all of his comboes does shit damage anyways outside of Genei-Jin. Ken would definately still be a threat, even without Shippu. Chun-Li is debateable I guess, she still has a very solid ground game, but like Yun, you lose the fear of her super.

(THE) Geese

07-13-2005, 09:56 PM

whats the difference between that and doing a "random parry guess" and fucking someone else up?

I could see this coming when I posted. The difference is that Chun Li has absolutely NO good combos. This means that if you guess wrong, you eat b+fierce xx fierce FB. Now what happens when you guess wrong vs Ken, Dudley, or anyone else decent without super? 40% damage...more in some cases. Chun Li with no meter suffers from the same case of "nopunishitus" as does Vega in almost every SF game.

EDIT: The fact that she's one the most easily juggled characters in the game doesn't help her case either.

CarpeNoctumXIII

07-13-2005, 10:14 PM

Yun-No way. Can't think of anything he can do that will be scary. He will worst then Yang that way, in my opinion.

Ken-Yeah. If not top, at least the top mid-tier. He still has a good rushdown game, so a player can work off of that.

Chun-Li-Even though you no longer have to fear her SAIII, she can still be a bitch. Her hp and b+hp can still be annoying, and she could still turtle pretty well I think

This did give me an idea though. I'm going to go to the system direction and remove SAs from the game when I play it tomorrow with my friends and see for myself who becomes total shit after that.

LegendayDudley

07-13-2005, 10:19 PM

dude alex is good so is dudley, and yang(all people i play as) and hugo i suppose

Lantis

07-13-2005, 10:24 PM

Have you ever seen CvS 2 Yun? THAT'S what turns out when you take away Genei-Jin from him. :sad:

shadowcharlie

07-13-2005, 10:36 PM

yang has had no super for ages... XD...o_O..-_-

#reload

07-13-2005, 10:51 PM

makoto is the best without supers
yang is already good without supers
dudley is tied for best without supers

FusionITR

07-13-2005, 11:12 PM

Have you ever seen CvS 2 Yun? THAT'S what turns out when you take away Genei-Jin from him. :sad:

LOL, you know what? good point

EVERDRED

07-13-2005, 11:15 PM

someone should just hold a tourny and turn supers off to see what happens.

but r u counting just supers or the total usage of meter? ex's and super.

if the game just had ex moves then yang and dudley would probably be top

low forward hurricane with ryu isnt a real threat, the real threat he has from low forward is ex hadoken since its safe on block. hurricane kick aint safe unless its ex.

imo no bar tier list

top

gill - no ressurection and gay angel wing super for 25% chip
akuma - same guy just withoiut supers for anti air or major damage still can rush and be a threat with air hadokens and dive kicks
dudley - chain combos and good foosie, mgb combos still worth something
yang - command grab into slasshes, dive kick, slashes!
makoto - command grab, high priority pokes good damage

mid

ken - target combo and short buffers on wake up to dp
ibuki - has an array of combos and mix ups
ryu - good kara throw only thing he misses from bar is ex hadokens to poke
alex - kara throw still eats ppl up and cant be supered to death since he has stamina
remy - doesnt need bar majority of the time
elena - nice pokes alot of her moves wont be punished by supers now
necro - jab hook from cr short is good, but needs one to push someone in the corner since he doesnt has electric snake to finish the job when going for stun.
oro - chicken combo and high stun factor
yun - has command grab and combos still off jab also dive kicks
hugo - still has monster high priority moves and good damage on hits
Q - taunts still there and doesnt need bar when he has c&db and defense
chun li - she cant threaten or inch up on anyone without bar
urien - how does he get in? cr fierce into what, a headbutt?

low

twelve - needs ex's i think for mix up
sean - needs super to punish and be a threat

edit- forgot necro

Xiii

07-14-2005, 03:11 AM

.... and then you forget the almighty Necro, that in the right hands could probably eat you alive now since wake up game has pretty much be taken completely out and this beast could easily put you in the corner and stun ~ combo you to death.

Necro pretty much has no use for meter other then making his mix up even safer and scarier (random timed overheads, lows, ranged low command throw, powerful regular throws and stun combos). Pretty much a slower version of dhalsim with more combo-ability, trading safety teleports for more mix-ups.

FusionITR

07-14-2005, 05:54 AM

sean - needs super to punish and be a threat

Is sean a threat even with supers?

nothingxs

07-14-2005, 06:17 AM

He's talking figuratively. The only way Sean will get any reasonable amount of damage in is if he has access to a super bar.

ParryAll

07-14-2005, 07:40 AM

remy - doesnt need bar majority of the time

Damn I burn meter constantly when I use him. I like to bait ppl to throw out a poke at mid range then punish it w/ EX low-sonic boom. Faking throws and instead half circle back EX CBK is good too. Plus you would loose his EX flash kick, probably his best move.

On topic though, I think that if Chun's SAII did about half damage, Genei Jin weakened, and Ken's SAIII only had two bars, and his command chain lp srk was damage buffered, they'd be about equal to the rest of the cast. Well, almost. Sean would still be shit.

Duck Strong

07-14-2005, 08:47 AM

I think Ken still comes out on top because his Shoryureppa is still a very good super that can be used much like SAIII, just doesn't charge as fast (does considerably more damage however

What the hell are you smoking? ShoryuReppa is garbage in this game, this isn't alpha 2. You can't use it to punish blocked normals like jinrai can so there goes a large chunk of ken's threat factor. If you're not close enough you won't get full hits or, even worse, they'll be able to block halfway through the super. Jinrai doesn't have that problem and it doesn't do that much less damage. StrongxxFiercexxSt.DpxxSA only works with jinrai iirc so that closes the damage gap too. If you really had to forego jinrai I think I might go with shinryuken for the simple fact that it's a practically guaranteed anti-air(seriously who can parry random mashing supers?). Then again it's only 1 bar so EX moves are scarce, I guess that's the biggest advantage reppa has over shinryuken.

ShinVegeta_Py

07-14-2005, 09:43 AM

Ken=yes!!
Chun=no!
Yun=no!

Serpent

07-15-2005, 08:40 AM

What the hell are you smoking? ShoryuReppa is garbage in this game, this isn't alpha 2. You can't use it to punish blocked normals like jinrai can so there goes a large chunk of ken's threat factor. If you're not close enough you won't get full hits or, even worse, they'll be able to block halfway through the super. Jinrai doesn't have that problem and it doesn't do that much less damage. StrongxxFiercexxSt.DpxxSA only works with jinrai iirc so that closes the damage gap too. If you really had to forego jinrai I think I might go with shinryuken for the simple fact that it's a practically guaranteed anti-air(seriously who can parry random mashing supers?). Then again it's only 1 bar so EX moves are scarce, I guess that's the biggest advantage reppa has over shinryuken.

Why are you even using a DP in that combo? You should either forego the DP or use a fireball, the shoryureppa works fine there. You can also use the Fierce DP, and cancel either in the combo or as an AA. cr. forwardxxreppa requires more intelligence to use correctly, but it is not random at all, it's completely distance based. I've never tried cr short cr short shoryu, can someone test this? It works in CvS2, so it might work here. shoryu does do more damage, especially if you're using it to punish whiffs, the damage difference is significant depending on if it's comboed or not. Shippu does about the same regardless. The shinryu is near worthless imo, who is going to jump at you but not be able to parry? It doesn't have any real horizontal range either, so you won't really be punishing anything with it reliably. Also having only one charge really hurts, and the bar is huge. Ken gains meter quickly enough that he can fill 2 shoryu bars in matches, but if you fill one shinryu thats pretty much all you'd have, and you couldn't use it until you had that one.

I've used shoryu quite a few times, and it's a decent SA to have. I was using it at ECC in casuals 3 years back and racking up a decent set of wins...so I don't think what I'm saying is just theory.

ShinobiSetsuna

07-15-2005, 09:36 AM

I'd prefer reppa, too. If I remember, strong>fierce>fb/dp>SA1 dosen't connect on all chars. You'd rather skip the fb/dp part. And yeah l.short2x>SA1 works. Unfortunately, those are the only ways for me to get reppa to hit anyone good. The initial range is just really bad - and punishing whiffs from chars like chunli is quote rare.

SA3 on the other hand, you could also link it from low strong and you can punish whiffs from 1/3 screen length. But everybody knows that.

Duck Strong

07-15-2005, 11:03 AM

The range on shinryuken is better than you might think, it still has a slight vacuum effect and the damage is pretty good so you could use it in anticipation of stray limbs(not ideal, I know, but that's still one up on reppa) or on wakeup against low attacks. The very worst that could happen is you get the initial hit and nothing else. That's not such a terrible proposition given your opponent is still on the ground, prone to Ken's cross up game.

Also, practically eliminating the option of jumping as soon as you get that meter is a big plus in a game that is all about options. Against characters like Yun and Yang who depend heavily on jump-ins I think it's pretty clear that shinryuken is the better choice.

Though its biggest fault remains the meter problems.