Controversial Akuma [Archive]

Sdouble

07-27-2005, 12:10 PM

when i made the thread asking if turtle was best way, i didn't know what i was talking about. Akuma's rush down is god, if ur smart, plus since he takes damage very crappy u need to lock them down, u need to limit their options to a few things.

The defensive style ur talking about is being aggressive while being safe, don't take a risk unless there's a big reward, just play footsies with akuma, and that leads to his damaging juggles. so what if he can't do a juggle for half life or whatever, if he could he would be top tier, he still deals big damage off of easily verifiable moves, builds meter quickly, has great super art max supers. i mean ur acting like his juggles suck, they don't, they are so easy to do and can be done anywhere on anybody. he is easy to play, and that ease of execution leads to not having to worry about something complicated so u can focus on all the other stuff.
his speed is also worth the tradeoff. playing akuma is fun man, come on!!!

he has alot of mind games all the typical shoto shiz
down lk, down lk, if they block keep the pressure up if they connect messatsu
walk up lk once then throw if they block
down mk, after they whiff something= super, or juggle depends on ur distance
just dash and do whatever u want, he is so f'n fast man.
forward mp is a great stuffer on wake up and is good against parriers, cause it hit's more than once.
Hk on wakeup hits twice.
toward fierce punch is unthrowable in arcade version.
dash in throw, walk up kara throw, walk up then dash back to punish what ever they throw out.
Akuma is really, really fast use his mobility to lock down anybody. just be careful on wakeup cause eventually u'll frustrate someone into a wakeup super/anit-air or something.

hyakki shuu(demon flip) do the kick variation if they block it keep pressuring with hp, lk lk, lp lp, standing lp, down lk to tr to get openings.
haykki shuu do kick variation right b/f u hit ground and u do nothing and it's almost like a wakeup situation.

his hurricane kick is really good too.
in air u can put them in juggle state.
in corner u can juggle them and do messatsu for okay damage, this is good if u have health lead and want to keep pressure on, and it's good to just go ahead and finish em' off if u can too.

jump in hp, land, standing hp into hp shoryuken, this fills up like half of almost everyone's stun bar.

he can juggle for damage off of standing hp, down mk, lk hurricane kick can juggle, etc.

he has frame advantage off of standing lp,lk, mp, standing close lp,lk mp, mk, crouching lp, lk. mp so uh yeah he can keep the pressure on like nobody's business.

shungokusatsu
umm this is cancelable off any ground move.. nuff said
this is a good move u act like 70 or less damage is nothing come on, just play chun or ken then if ur gonna hate brotha.
Akuma is a aggressive warrior man... :karate:
Now tell me why not to rush down..lol.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 12:45 PM

1) Akuma has the longest super meters in the game and they build slowly, unless you land combos on people. All other characters build meter faster and have EX moves.

2) Akuma's super arts deal very little damage. SA1 does 43pts(46 air) against Ken with no combo. It does less with uppercut combos and more with c.mk > SA1, but you still need 4 to kill Ken.

SA 2 and 3 both do 53pts against Ken and scale down to chip damage in combos. Also both miss frequently after landing the first hit, making it essential to use a combo to land them(translation garbage).

RD takes less than 80pts off of most characters on the games at Perfect and even less at 70%.

KKZ takes an unpredictable amount of damage, as its based on proximity. It can also be jumped into, which results in 0% damage if you land right, and the energy wave can be parried(1 parry=15 hits)

3) All the mind game stuff you mention is easily/parried avoided. Most good players will parry the f.MP chop, including the second hit, the close HK axe(both hits) and yes even the HCKick with any number of hits.

4) Demon Flip dive kick, d.Mk dive kick, are both easily parried by basically everyone. Demon flip is a air to ground maneuver with no anti-air, so it is easily escaped by jumping straight up. Demon Flip cancel can be executed with punch or kick, and you can be thrown BEFORE you hit the ground.

5) Jump in hp, land, standing hp into hp shoryuken does not do half stun on anyone. Well maybe Akuma and Yun/Yang.

6) I can play with all the characters on the game. Akuma's RD is only connectable to 1 almost impossible to land combo. All other RDs are contrivances. Chun Li has lk > hit confirm > SA2 for 90+ pts off Akuma, Ken has lk > hit confirm > jab DP > SA3 for 70+ pts, plus too many other combos to list. Plus they both have vastly better recovery time and stamina than Akuma.

PS. People keep saying Akuma is so fast and its driving me nuts. Akuma has very fast move startup, but his moves are usually late hits, and his recovery for missed moves is atrocious. If they block the hurricane, your opponent has all year to hit you with a combo into super. Same goes for air fireballs if they have the timing down for passing through/under fireballs.

CyanideAssassin

07-27-2005, 01:12 PM

Ive gotta ask: Explain to me what you mean by defensive. The way I see it , the more time you spend with Akuma NOT attacking, the more chances your opponant has to rush YOU down, and no matter how defensive you play, youll eventually get parried or have your guard broken and eat a huge combo (Urien's Thunder 100% comes to mind). I agree with what people are saying about locking your opponant down, thats how Ive seen Akuma played and how I play him (I dont play him much, mind you).

But maybe theres somthing Im not seeing. Please explain your playing style to us in a bit more detail.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 01:33 PM

I won't explain my thinking, as my techniques are trade secrets(all the guys at Berkeley would kill to know how to beat me) but heres what Im willing to say.

1) Demon Flip can be used to ZONE opponents. Air fireball as well.

2) The fireball takes very little damage in this game and does even less chip damage. Still a very small amount of chip damage is enough to win by time over, which makes people anxious to get close to you.

3) Parry entanglement is a good way to open up opponents. I wont explain this, think about it for yourself.

4) An enemy who can't get close to you is an enemy who cant kill you. Caveat: Assuming you have reasonable parrying skills.

5) Most players have spent so much time mastering combos and such that they haven't given much thought to attack distances.

Vague on purpose,
--tsukaihatasu

PS. I only really play with other characters in private, meaning Akuma is my front man 100.000001% of the time at the arcade.

CyanideAssassin

07-27-2005, 01:55 PM

Well if you ever plan on going to Sunnyvale shoot me a pm, Im curious to see how your Akuma fairs against the likes of Urien and Makoto. Makoto in particular (I dont use her much but we have a regular here who is quite good with her). Just a friendly challenge, do with it what you like:)

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 02:04 PM

Septimus Prime

07-27-2005, 02:36 PM

Your numbers are off.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 02:48 PM

What numbers are off?

OmegaX

07-27-2005, 02:53 PM

Well I'm not sure what you mean by Akuma having the longest bar, supers like Gigas, Shin SRK, & Hyper Bomb have way longer bars & only have one stock, if you mean it's longer then lets say Kens SAIII or Dudleys SAIII then yes it is. You wanna rush with Akuma because you don't want the opponent to rush on you giving him the advantage, and considering he's is weak as hell if you were to get rushed you would lose real quickly. I'm not saying constantly keep attacking your opponent, you wanna keep your game consisten with what's going on in the match, of course if your going against a Chun with two full stocks of SAII then you wanna play it cool.

s.hp, lk tatsu, hp DP - Does real decent damge

s.hp, lk tatsu -> demon flip - sets up a guessing situation, you can either press p if you expect the char is going to hit so you can trade hits, k so you can maybe set up another hp lk tatsu juggle or apply more blocking pressure, lp+lk if you expect the char is going to parry, or nothing so you can mix it up with a sweep, you want to alternate between these options to keep you opponent guessing.

You can set up a KKZ with just an air tatsu.

Dash in RDs and kara RDs are always good if you know the damage will put the opponent on real low health or will kill him.

SAI is like a crappier version of Kens SAIII but makes up for it with air options and slightly more damage, you can cancel a lp DP into SAI for more damage. hp -> lk tatsu, lp DP -> SAI does real good damage.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 03:23 PM

1) Akuma's meter on SAI is the same length as Ryu and Hugo's bars(SAII and SAI respectively). Alex's might be slightly longer, but I couldn't tell by eyeballing it. The point is Akuma has long bars for his super arts.

2) There are ways to prevent your opponent from rushing you. Without serious risk to yourself.

3) St.Hp, lk.tatsu, hp.DP does decent damage against some characters(depends on how you define decent).

4) All demon flip strategies are defused with a well timed jump from your opponent, or worse yet, a DP, EX DP, forward dash under, EX hurricane, etc.

5) KKZ can not be connected reliably with a simple air tatsu. It will miss frequently because of it's long startup.

6) Dash/Kara RD can be avoided by aware opponents. Some characters, most notably Elena and Urien, can throw Akuma out of RD easily.

7) DP to SAI results in 6-8 pts. more damage than a plain super. In a worse case it takes less than the straight super alone. Ryu's c.HP 2->1 hp.DP take 50pts. from Akuma(with no SA), while Akuma's j.DP 2->1 SAI only takes 46pts. from Ryu, and c.HP > hp.DP > SAI takes 50.

These numbers are hitpoints, not percentages. The training mode displays hitpoints when attack data is on. 1%=1.61pts.

CyanideAssassin

07-27-2005, 03:32 PM

Ive been to Sunnyvale many times.

Are you talking about the Indian guy who plays Makoto? I beat him almost every time we played. The only guy who really gave me serious comp at Sunnyvale was Campbell, but apparently he moved to TX(?). I guess Ricardo is still a threat to me with his Alex, but Daniel's Urien is not a problem, and Dudley Dave is good but he cant beat me often.

You might have seen me, Im the big black guy who plays with Akuma and hangs out with Hydro, and had a long bushy beard last time I was there. I also landed 10 RDs and everyone was going crazy. I was arguing that Urien's AR Headbutt crossup is escapable, and everyone was arguing with me about it?

Anyway, its been awhile since Ive been and I certainly will PM you next time I go.

--tsukaihatasu

The Makoto I was referring to is this one guy (white guy, kinda curly hair, not sure what color cause of the arcade lighting lol) who always stands while playing (as opposed to sitting on the stools). There are 2 really good Uriens that play there quite often, Im sure youll run across them if you stop by later on, like around 8-9. Most good comp at SVGL shows up around 7-8. I think I may have seen you there before, not sure though, were you at a tourney there a few months back?

Anyways, sounds good man I look forward to playing you in the near future:tup:

Ponta-kun

07-27-2005, 04:11 PM

3) St.Hp, lk.tatsu, hp.DP does decent damage against some characters(depends on how you define decent).

Decent as in more than most characters can do in a single combo without using meter and without an inane setup (ie. Urien hitting MP or HP anti-air sphere in the corner then taking ~50% with just normal tackles).

4) All demon flip strategies are diffused with a well timed jump from your opponent, or worse yet, a DP, EX DP, forward dash under, EX hurricane, etc.

Not all. Characters without DP have a really bad time with it, tall characters have trouble too because they can get thrown so early. The best option most characters have is to jump straight up and immediately parry. Though I think demon flip's best use is just mobility, like getting across the screen after b+throw or connecting with SA1.

5) KKZ can not be connected reliably with a simple air tatsu. It will miss frequently because of it's long startup.

I don't know about other people, but I have no trouble judging whether I'm within distance for it or not, though I personally like to save the meter for RD setups or just connecting SA1.

6) Dash/Kara RD can be avoided by aware opponents. Some characters, most notably Elena and Urien, can throw Akuma out of RD easily.

Ha. If you're actually good at using RD, there's nothing easy about getting out of it. For that matter, you could just sit on the meter based on the threat of anti-air RD against most characters.

7) DP to SAI results in 6-8 pts. more damage than a plain super. In a worse case it takes less than the straight super alone. Ryu's c.HP 2->1 hp.DP take 50pts. from Akuma(with no SA), while Akuma's j.DP 2->1 SAI only takes 46pts. from Ryu, and c.HP > hp.DP > SAI takes 50.

1) DP to SA1 is generally just a bad idea unless you're using it as an anti-air, but even that isn't usually worth it. DP does good enough damage on its own that it's not worth burning all that meter for just about 25 more points of damage.
2) Your example is no good. You should be looking at damage comparisons against the same character, not what damage two different characters do to each other. You should be looking at either the damage that both things do to Ryu, or what they both do to Akuma.

Anyways, arguing ideal situation shit isn't a great way to determine the best way for a character to be played. Ideal situations don't pop up often enough to matter for the purposes of this discussion. Realistically, while Akuma can work either defensively or offensively, keeping the pressure on the opponent is really the best way to play. Hell, the general best strategy against 2/3 of the top tier is to stay on them and do as much damage as you can before they get meter and you're forced to be more careful. About the only matchups where I can see defensive as ever being better are Ken or Makoto, though in the latter case it's pretty borderline. Letting Makoto play around with meter is worse for Akuma than anything else and getting out of the grab tricks isn't always simple.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 04:55 PM

Decent as in more than most characters can do in a single combo without using meter and without an inane setup (ie. Urien hitting MP or HP anti-air sphere in the corner then taking ~50% with just normal tackles).

1) I am talking about 'Akuma vs some other character' matchups in this thread, which are by far the most commonly encountered type at the arcade. Just about every character can match or exceed the damage delivered by that combo, when fighting Akuma. That may or may not include SOME meter, in the form of EX moves, but considering most characters can do 2 or 3 EXs per available level, using one EX is not a great loss.

Not all. Characters without DP have a really bad time with it, tall characters have trouble too because they can get thrown so early. The best option most characters have is to jump straight up and immediately parry. Though I think demon flip's best use is just mobility, like getting across the screen after b+throw or connecting with SA1.

2) This is exactly what I said. If they don't want to get hit/be trapped they can simply jump and punish on the way down. Some characters(read: all top tiers) can simply punish you with DP, etc right from the start.

I don't know about other people, but I have no trouble judging whether I'm within distance for it or not, though I personally like to save the meter for RD setups or just connecting SA1.

3) It doesn't matter how far away you are exactly it matters more if they're high enough in the air to prevent them from landing/falling/blocking before the hit.

Ha. If you're actually good at using RD, there's nothing easy about getting out of it. For that matter, you could just sit on the meter based on the threat of anti-air RD against most characters.

4) Im damn good at landing the Raging, and its super easy to get out of; you just jump. Hit stun or block stun guarantee that your opponent will have extra time to jump, because they will be pushed instead of grabbed when Akuma arrives. Thus no combo into RD(1 exception). Anti-air RD is easily defeatable with early hits.

1) DP to SA1 is generally just a bad idea unless you're using it as an anti-air, but even that isn't usually worth it. DP does good enough damage on its own that it's not worth burning all that meter for just about 25 more points of damage.

5) Once again, this was my exact point. I was responding to someone saying DP > SAI was good, by countering with the argument it was no good. Check my post again.

2) Your example is no good. You should be looking at damage comparisons against the same character, not what damage two different characters do to each other. You should be looking at either the damage that both things do to Ryu, or what they both do to Akuma. Anyways, arguing ideal situation shit isn't a great way to determine the best way for a character to be played. Ideal situations don't pop up often enough to matter for the purposes of this discussion.

6) The ideal matchup is Akuma v Akuma. Period(character factors out). Ryu v Akuma is a bad matchup, as Ryu can kill Akuma in one combo. The real truth is that 99% of your matches at the arcade will be 'Akuma vs some other character'. Therefore we should primarily be concerned with those matchups, rather than Akuma v Akuma.

How is it useful to see how much damage Akuma deals to himself? If you compare that to Ryu's damage vs Akuma, things seem more even, but that's just because Akuma has the worst stamina. Besides, that matchup hardly ever happens.

I chose Ryu because he and Ken have identical stamina, similar power, and Ken/Ryu show up frequently at the arcade.

Realistically, while Akuma can work either defensively or offensively, keeping the pressure on the opponent is really the best way to play. Hell, the general best strategy against 2/3 of the top tier is to stay on them and do as much damage as you can before they get meter and you're forced to be more careful. About the only matchups where I can see defensive as ever being better are Ken or Makoto, though in the latter case it's pretty borderline. Letting Makoto play around with meter is worse for Akuma than anything else and getting out of the grab tricks isn't always simple.

7) Makoto can only grab you if youre close enough to be grabbed. The same goes for Ken's crossup > EX DP, which supports my argument in favor of staying away from opponents.

Ponta-kun

07-27-2005, 07:56 PM

1) I am talking about 'Akuma vs some other character' matchups in this thread, which are by far the most commonly encountered type at the arcade. Just about every character can match or exceed the damage delivered by that combo, when fighting Akuma. That may or may not include SOME meter, in the form of EX moves, but considering most characters can do 2 or 3 EXs per available level, using one EX is not a great loss.

Oh really? Well I finally got away from what I was doing so I can do some actual testing.

Akuma max damage vs Ryu (considered as average stamina for this game) with no meter: j.hp, st.hp -> lk HK, st.jab -> HP DP = 68 damage, about 55-60% stun. If you omit the jab (which you really should) it's 65 damage, stun is basically the same.
Ryu max damage vs Akuma with no meter: j.hp, st.hp -> rh HK or hp DP = 68 damage, about 65-70% stun.

If you give Ryu EX, it jumps to 84 points by throwing in EX side kick, but I really can't remember the last time I saw someone land a jump-in and capitalize on it completely with either character. It is really not that simple to do against good players without stunning them first, by which point pretty much any character can kill any other without wasting any meter.

2) This is exactly what I said. If they don't want to get hit/be trapped they can simply jump and punish on the way down. Some characters(read: all top tiers) can simply punish you with DP, etc right from the start.

Yes, they can do that, but players that try to jump against me when I do demon flip get hit by the punch the 2nd time they try it. Also, out of all our Ken players, only one actually reacts in time to hit me with DP, and half the time it trades anyways with about even damage, maybe a bit in Akuma's favor. Theory fighter is great and all, but I honestly don't get DP'd out of the flip much, nor do people get out of the way in time all that often.

3) It doesn't matter how far away you are exactly it matters more if they're high enough in the air to prevent them from landing/falling/blocking before the hit.

Distance applies in the Y dimension as well. Like I said, not very hard at all to know when it will work and when it won't, the more difficult part is learning to do the motion fast enough.

4) Im damn good at landing the Raging, and its super easy to get out of; you just jump. Hit stun or block stun guarantee that your opponent will have extra time to jump, because they will be pushed instead of grabbed when Akuma arrives. Thus no combo into RD(1 exception). Anti-air RD is easily defeatable with early hits.

If you were damn good at landing RD, you'd know it's not that easy to get out of the better setups. ESPECIALLY not anti-air. If your character can't delay landing (Oro's double jump, Makoto's axe kick) or change trajectory (Ken's EX hurricane, but done too late it won't work), you'll get caught if it's done right. Early jump-ins don't mean shit, he just slides through it and grabs as soon as they land.

6) The ideal matchup is Akuma v Akuma. Period(character factors out). Ryu v Akuma is a bad matchup, as Ryu can kill Akuma in one combo. The real truth is that 99% of your matches at the arcade will be 'Akuma vs some other character'. Therefore we should primarily be concerned with those matchups, rather than Akuma v Akuma.

How is it useful to see how much damage Akuma deals to himself? If you compare that to Ryu's damage vs Akuma, things seem more even, but that's just because Akuma has the worst stamina. Besides, that matchup hardly ever happens.

My point in saying your example was bad is that if you're going to compare damage, you have to have a standard to judge against. But regardless, I already pointed out that without meter, he goes about even with Ryu. Letting Ryu use EX give him more damage equivalent to Akuma's close st. forward. Big deal. And unless Ryu is using SA1, he's not likely to burn meter for EX moves, even then it's better used on EX fireballs for the most part.

7) Makoto can only grab you if youre close enough to be grabbed. The same goes for Ken's crossup > EX DP, which supports my argument in favor of staying away from opponents.

Staying away from opponents won't get you good damage. You have to get in and try to kill them because if you're playing defensively and getting in hits here and there, one misstep means they have the lead again. Akuma is one of the better characters at running away, but he's not good at keeping a lead because he takes hits so poorly, as you've pointed out so many times in this thread. The answer to this is to lock them down and force a mistake out of them so you can capitalize and take off between 1/3 and 1/2 their life in one shot.

Also, staying away from Makoto isn't easy, fast dash, relatively fast jump, high priority attacks in the air and on the ground, and a few dozen stupid tricks to catch you in her grab and kill you. She is far and away Akuma's worst matchup for very good reasons. Running away doesn't make it any better.

And Akuma isn't the best at zoning, so I don't see what kind of ridiculous defensive strategy there could be that's better than getting in close and being as tricky as possible in order to get hits in. Besides, if you're staying away, you can't take advantage of the most useful kara-throw in the game.

Besides all that, you're trying to argue this like you're playing against people with nearly perfect reactions. People don't parry things like the t+mp overhead or close rk all the time unless you're incredibly predictable with them.

By the way, j.hp, st.hp -> hp DP does do a little over 50% stun. On Ryu. So Sdouble was absolutely right about that.

By the way, I've played against Campbell, and if he was your best 3S competition before he moved away, the rest of the people you play against can't be all that good. He's decent, but that's as far as I'd take it. 3S is not that boy's game, doesn't have enough Morrigan or Hibiki in it. =p

Dragon_Light

07-27-2005, 09:36 PM

After seeing this guy come with so many arguments against Akuma even from an objective point of view I'm really forced to wonder why does he bother with Akuma at all. Play Ryu and don't bother trying to debate this man.

Sdouble

07-27-2005, 09:39 PM

ponta-kun: thanks for that last post.

tsukaihatasu: it's like ponta-kun said u are somewhat theory fighting. ur talking about extreme examples and shit man. yes everything is easily parried if u know it's coming, but mind games means u dont' i mean come on, does every combo have to be a monster, and u act like akuma's moves are worthless or something, if ur not going to contribute to making people better with him, what is the purpose of posting in the akuma thread? i'm not trying to put u down but jeez lay off man.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 09:39 PM

Ponta-Kun:

Rather than go over every point like last time, I'll summarize my rebuttal, restate my position, give some credentials and call it a day.

FACT: Akuma!=Ryu in terms of strength or stamina. You yourself admitted that the jump in combos you mentioned are hard to land. Add to that the fact that Ryu can take 100% in a combo(+1 hit after stun) on Akuma, and Akuma at best can take less than half of Ryu's power in a single combo, and there's really nothing left to discuss.

FACT: Demon Flip is easily escaped. DP!=Theory fighter(subtle insult), as the people I play with use this all the time. Play against Ricky Ortiz's Ken and I guarantee you'll catch an uppercut. BTW, DF punch dont trade with EX DP, and Chun's jumping splits kick totally destroys DFlip.

FACT: I am good at RD. I average 15 a day. Ive landed as many as 27 in a single day. This is no joke and you are hereby invited to Bearcade to watch me work. That being said it is dead-easy to escape RD. No combo=Easy escape. What's the argument?

POSITION:
My position, stated simply, is that Akuma is better at zone control than rushdown. Rushdown, when it works, is very flashy, but zone control will earn you CONSISTENT wins. I never said Akuma was the best character for zoning, and if you are a true diehard Akuma player, it doesn't matter who the best at zoning is, because it wouldn't even occur to you to pick any other character. This is the Akuma thread.

CREDITS:
I was known as one of the 3 Kings of the OakTree for many years before moving to BC. That rep was earned with Akuma and the RD.
At the Bearcade, I clock more wins than any other player. With Akuma. Most people there are afraid to play me. I just had back to back to back 20+ game winning streaks at BC yesterday, and won 5doru to top it off.
Still, the comp there is pretty good. There's Hydro who will parry everything you mentioned, PracticeMaster who low parries everything, and Joe who runs very efficiently with every character he plays with. I've played against most of the SVGL players and beat them easily, and I've played against some of the current greats: Ricky Ortiz(alot: Chun/Ken/Yun/Ibuki/Akuma), Frankie3s(a few times at the NW regionals: Ryu/Akuma/Ken), Pyro Lee(same: Yun), John Choi(Ryu/Ken), Eric Choi(Ken/Urien), Hydro(Necro/Dudley/Alex), etc.

POINT:
These people destroy rushdown Akuma. For free. Play them and see for yourself. If you really think crazy rushdown with Akuma is gonna give you wins playing against good people I guess all I can say is "Good luck with that".

CONCLUSION:
So, it would appear that the people posting all the rubbish about Akuma's super rushdown tactics are just lucky enough to not have run into anyone good enough to beat them. And my style of Akuma is the right one to use.

Only my personal opinion, nothing more.

--tsukaihatasu

PS. I am not explaining Ryu's 100% against Akuma. Spend some time in training mode and figure it out.

Also anyone who wants me to put my money where my mouth is can PM me and meet me at BearCade anytime. I always love a challenge.

Sdouble

07-27-2005, 09:50 PM

dude who cares how many raging demons a day u average? no one in this thread my friend. We do not care, i'm not trying to flame, but u keep talking about all these combos that are not easily applied in a real match and u say ur tactics are secrets come on, all some one has to is wathc matches and figure it out. no one is saying rush down and that's it, if u would of read my post it clearly implies to do it smartly. u act like all people do is hurricane kick and combo hp shoryu into messatsu, no one does that accept when it's applicable. I don't get what ur posting about at all on many things man. u talk about how everything is easily countered and how it sucks and how his moves have heavy recovery, 9 of his pokes have frame advantage if blocked, doing this in the rush down leaves him safe and frustrates people into doing something dumb. omg it's all clear, what are u trying to prove man!!!

OH AND A SMART RUSH DOWN IS CONTROLLING ZONE, SPACE, all while frustrating ur opponent, akuma is a great punisher, he does damage without super meter easily, so ur always putting down his supers, his supers are only a part of his game. come one man post more than just a few good things each post if ur so godly akuma, omfg i land rd all day blah, blah, blah.

I'm not flaming just asking why man? I'm sure ur good but come on u are theory fighting man.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 10:15 PM

dude who cares how many raging demons a day u average?

I'm not flaming just asking why man? I'm sure ur good but come on u are theory fighting man.

Ponta-Kun implied I'm not good at RD(an insult), just because I wouldn't agree that RD was hard to escape. Which is BS. Thus the RD count.

I play with Akuma as my main character. I just disagree that rushdown is his greatest strength. That makes me unpopular with non-Akuma players everywhere I go, but I figured there would at least be one liked-minded person amongst the serious Akuma players. I guess not.

I assure you everything I have said has been battle tested. There are no theoretical aspects to my argument, good players beat rushdown Akuma in the way I describe. In real life. In the arcades, and at tournaments. For REAL.

And, if you're not flaming me, why are my temples burning? Saying my examples are 'theory fighting' is intended to insult me. That is flame by definition.

If you want to disregard the people I list as people who do the things I said, and you are just going to blindly call me a liar, I guess its not possible to discuss this further.

Rushdown all you like.

--tsukaihatasu

Donkus

07-27-2005, 11:15 PM

FACT: Akuma!=Ryu in terms of strength or stamina. ... and Akuma at best can take less than half of Ryu's power in a single combo, and there's really nothing left to discuss.
Gouki vs Ryu is a 5/5 match.

That being said it is dead-easy to escape RD. No combo=Easy escape. What's the argument?
You can combo into it, but it doesn't matter, because it isn't easy to escape if it's done right (in the middle of someone else's move, anti-air, etc).

My position, stated simply, is that Akuma is better at zone control than rushdown.
You've given a lot of theoryfigther and no proof. All the Japanese vids I've seen of Gouki are rushdown. Have they somehow missed this?

CONCLUSION:
So, it would appear that the people posting all the rubbish about Akuma's super rushdown tactics are just lucky enough to not have run into anyone good enough to beat them. And my style of Akuma is the right one to use.
http://www.math.missouri.edu/~stephen/preprints/cheap3/cheap3.html

PS. I am not explaining Ryu's 100% against Akuma. Spend some time in training mode and figure it out.

PS. This isn't news, because almost everyone in the game has one or more 100% combos against Gouki.

tsukaihatasu

07-27-2005, 11:35 PM

Did I miss something, what's the point of linking the Navier-Stokes equations? Are you by chance a CS student with a specialty in Graphics? Or a physics major studying CFD?

What does that have to do with Akuma?

And the examples I gave are theoretical? You actually think Ricky doesn't uppercut Demon Flip? I can assure you that he does. You think Hydro doesn't parry dive kick? I assure you he does. You think Frankie doesn't parry hurricane? I can vouch for his ability to parry it, based on first hand experiences. I guess I'm a liar because you weren't there. You proved me wrong.

And BTW, which one of the Japanese rushdown Akumas is dominating the circuit? Asaba? Match? They all seem to be losing tournaments to me. Does that mean they're not good? Nope. It just means something is wrong.

--tsukaihatasu

tsukaihatasu

07-28-2005, 12:58 AM

Well I guess that's it. To all the other Akuma players out there, Rushdown and Good luck.

Peace.

Sdouble

07-28-2005, 09:11 AM

i'm sorry if i flamed a little bit but all i'm saying is that rushing down is what keeps akuma safe when it's done right, but yes u can't do it right everytime, but the people u play can't defend it right everytime either. i mean can u break down one of ur matches cause i do rush down too much, but i'm trying to imporve. that's why i got upset, cause u were talking about ur secrets and all that, if u have secret tactics u don't wanna share why are u in here. oh and everyone theory fights when ur not actually fighing lol...
Just post up and share tactics bro, that's all i want from srk, not flaming sorry if i flamed some, casue i don't want to be a troll.

tsukaihatasu

07-28-2005, 09:37 AM

SDouble: No prob. I just wanted to get the opinions of others and I think what I heard was interesting. It's just sad that insults had to be included.

As far as sharing, I did kind of explain my thinking a little in one of the posts. I don't want to go into specifics, for my protection. I've been playing at the arcade since I was 8(20+yrs) and it has cost me a lot of blood, tears, sweat, and money to gain my knowledge. This is not a shot at you, its just that people who I play against all the time are on this forum, and I don't want to tell them how to beat me. I don't really do any moves or combos that haven't been seen(well maybe a couple), it's really my style and the way I mix things up that allows me to win.

That said, here's some advice:

Necro(SAI&III) v Akuma is a bad matchup; don't rush, you'll get stunned and killed.

Chun(SAI&II) v Akuma is the worst matchup on the game for Akuma. Don't rush because all you really have is the dive kick and most people(GOOD) parry that all the time. Zoning and parrying is critical here.

Ken's crossup can be beaten with a parry > j.DP. Block at the last second and you'll get a parry. Try it, it really works. It works against EX Tatsu as well, and it really discourages use of crossups.

If Yun goes to SAIII, rushdown. If not, hang back.

Urien's shoulder rush should be parried every time. Same for Q and Alex's rushes. This is key to beating them.

Don't get mesmerized by Remy's projectiles. Parry them to taunt your opponent, but don't take your focus off of killing him.

Always kara throw, never use std throw.

Some Ragings are for show, some are useful. I'll leave it there.

Above all, patience is a virtue when using Akuma.

Now I know people are going to flame me for the above statements, but if you keep this advice in mind when playing these difficult matchups, I guarantee you'll get better even if you don't follow it.

--tsukaihatasu

Sdouble

07-28-2005, 09:42 AM

no thinks man i would like to hear from u(and anyone else!!) about the oro matchup, and if u'll share what are akuma's best bait tactics, is it just frustrating the opponent?

if u respond to the matchup questions could u post them in the matchups thread i made i'd like to see everything in the sections if yall on here don't mind. let's get all the knowledge we can out there..

money

07-28-2005, 10:20 AM

i must say that i disagree because akuma takes damage horribly but then again everyone has a different way of playing with diffrent characters and u just chose your way so if it works 4 you use it

OmegaX

07-28-2005, 11:14 AM

I'll give you this much, RDs are easy to escape if for some reason you'r in block stun, e.g. close s.mk, hesitate slightly, kara demon (f.mp -> RD) is totally escapeable even after the freeze frame. However the dashing RD is a whole different story, you actually have to anticipate those, so now your cornered with a decision, either jump, attack, block, or parry. Dashing RDs beat out most attacks, blocking & parrying just guarantee one, the best thing to do would be to jump, and you would have to do that before the freeze frame, this is where you could set up some mind games, you could dash in & see what the opponent does, if he jumps you could punish that with a quick c.hp.

And yes I know Ricky always DPs demon flips, I've played him.

And I still consider lp DP -> SAI good. I'm not saying do a DP while an opponent jumps in and see if they parry so you can cancel into SAI (which is a good tactic btw since it would leave you in a safe position and would discourage you opponent from jumping in) I'm saying if you find your self in situation where you can punish the opponent like lets say you parry Ryu's DP, then s.hp -> lk tatsu, lp DP -> SAI would be a good option to consider.

Alright, just curious tsukaihatasu, if you did find yourself in a situation where you could punish your opponent and you only had 1 stock of SAI, what combo would you go for.

tsukaihatasu

07-28-2005, 11:26 AM

c.MK > SAI if it would kill and I'm in trouble, or c.HP > j.DP if not and save the meter to land RD later.

My 1st priority as a Akuma player is to land RD always. That's why I play with him and it has always been my reason since I first started playing with him years ago.

--tsukaihatasu

OmegaX

07-28-2005, 11:36 AM

Not trying to put you on the spot or corner you or anything but let me warp my question a little.

This is tournament play, you have 1/8 of your original life left, you only have on stock of SAI, you jump in on a Ryu with absolutely no bar left, and looking for an easy win he hp DPs you but you parry. Would you still go for the same option before or would opt for something different.

Personally I would go for the most damaging combo I can if that was my situation. I dont always go for that lp DP -> SAI combo, I always see if an RD or a KKZ is an option.

tsukaihatasu

07-28-2005, 11:43 AM

In that situation, I wouldn't have even jumped in at all. I have total advantage and he has to come to me which means I will definitely win the match, but I'll play along.

In that situation I would jump in with air HP fireball > air SAI, pretty close to the ground so he couldn't dash under. Ryu would uppercut and be killed.

If I parried, like you would, I would just press HP while he was falling. He has no power, so he dies. Why risk missing a combo when he has no power?

--tsukaihatasu

OmegaX

07-28-2005, 11:50 AM

I think you misunderstood me, you have hardly no life left, Ryu still has plenty of of life left, my bad, when I said bar I meant super bar so he couldn't cancel the DP into anything on reaction to your parry.

tsukaihatasu

07-28-2005, 12:01 PM

Why jump in on Ryu if he has a perfect and you have nothing? I'll play along again.

I would st.HP > j.DP > SAI or c.MK > SAI. These are hard to miss and hit confirmable, so I would play it safe. On the other hand, I wouldn't even put myself in that situation in the first place. On a jump in where you KNOW they can't resist DP, you should use air SAI. But you shouldn't rush in a situation like that if you still have any kind of time left on the clock. It's best to come back by wearing your opponent down.

I personally find myself in desperate situations like this all the time, and I almost always comeback and win by simply being patient.

--tsukaihatasu

Sdouble

07-28-2005, 12:10 PM

why is ur goal always to land raging demon, i guess u just play him dif. which is cool i mean i'm asking why do u not like to play mind games, pressure and frustrate people it seems u are playina a sparingly active turtle akuma.

tsukaihatasu

07-28-2005, 12:15 PM

OmegaX

07-28-2005, 12:30 PM

It was hypothetical, I was just trying to place you in a punishment situation.

UltraDavid

07-30-2005, 02:20 PM

What's up Lou, this is David, the guy who used Q at the Bearcade before graduating this year. I lost Hiro's number and never got your email address, can you pm those to me?

Haha, PracticeMaster. I still think that's a hilarious nickname. Poor Brian heh.

Sincerely,
The guy who still has the record for most wins in a row at the Bearcade (54, using Q)

kal el

07-30-2005, 06:48 PM

Haha, PracticeMaster. I still think that's a hilarious nickname. Poor Brian heh.

Brian? does he go on srk under the username "brian"? if so, he came up to Vancouver not too long ago and i got some games in vs. him.

:rock:

tsukaihatasu

07-30-2005, 09:00 PM

Yep, that's him.

--tsukaihatasu

CyanideAssassin

07-31-2005, 05:01 PM

the Ragin' is the tightest move in fighting game history. It is the essence of Akuma. His first appearance was RD on Bison. Its the only reason I liked Gouki from the start. Did I say I don't play mind games? Of course I confuse people. Its the only way to land lots of RD.

--tsukaihatasu

The Demon is an awesome move, I agree. I dont play 3S Gouki very much, but I played ONLY Gouki back in the SFA,A2, A3 and SF3SI days. RD is one of the coolest moves of all time.

Sdouble

08-01-2005, 05:58 AM

yeah rd is a cool move, but how's about someone go in the matchup thread and post about vs oro, chun-li, and against necro...i can't beat necros mp.

chicken

08-01-2005, 04:13 PM

Sincerely,
The guy who still has the record for most wins in a row at the Bearcade (54, using Q)Ricky had 100+.

LazyYetCrazy

08-01-2005, 04:20 PM

I </3 Q, I would almost be tempted to kill him to learn how to beat Akuma.

UltraDavid

08-01-2005, 06:24 PM

Ricky had 100+.
Yeah, I believe it. I figured it was either Ricky who had it or someone else who came/comes by more rarely like Choi or Emphy or whatever, but meh, I decided to go for the shameless self-promotion anyway. And to be honest, I wasn't exactly playing against the cream of the Bearcade crop for most of those wins (no offense to the guys who were there).

tsukaihatasu

08-01-2005, 06:36 PM

It's true. Ricky had 101 wins at the Bearcade with me in the lineup. 20-30 of those wins were against me. And I have had two 60+ game winning streaks at the Bearcade myself, not to mention countless 40+,30+,etc.

--tsukaihatasu

(THE) Geese

08-01-2005, 09:08 PM

This thread is so Theory Fighter (C), and so fucking retarded. I can't believe I went through it all...

kal el

08-01-2005, 10:21 PM

This thread is so Theory Fighter (C), and so fucking retarded. I can't believe I went through it all...

that's 'cuz you're the supervisor of Team Loblaws :lol:.

Food Basics is where it's at :lol:. man, i miss TO.

:rock:

tsukaihatasu

08-02-2005, 08:56 AM

The concept of 'Theory Fighter(c)', theory fighter, or theory fighting is so ridiculous.

Do you actually believe I am just making up scenarios and posting them? These are things that have actually been seen and used at tournaments and at the arcade. I guess its just no convincing some people(and some others actually seem to say this because they think it makes them cool). Come to Bearcade and I'll show you what's up. Or maybe I'll go see you guys before I retire.

SDouble: I don't want to post matchup info in that thread because its so off-topic; littered with joke posts and trash. I guess this thread is the same, but if you want some info I'd rather post here or in a new thread that is for SERIOUS strategy posts, not 'go crazy with tatsu and pray'.

--tsukaihatasu

PS. kal el: How did you do against PracticeMaster(Brian)? Did he play with Chun,Ken, or Yun?

kal el

08-02-2005, 09:12 AM

PS. kal el: How did you do against PracticeMaster(Brian)? Did he play with Chun,Ken, or Yun?

PracticeMaster? that's hilarious!

anyways. first game was my Dudley vs. his Ken. i won, then he beat me once or twice, i forget. then i beat him 8 or 9 times in a row. he switches to Chun then wins. i pick Denjin Ryu and i lose once, win one (with a perfect :lol:) then lose again. then i pick Dudley again and beat him 9 in a row. he used Yun maybe 3 times, all of those wins for me.

we didn't get to play for as long as i would've liked 'cuz i had to go to work and he had a pretty tight schedule as well. he's pretty good though. he said he's won a few of your Bearcade tourneys or something like that.

:rock:

chicken

08-02-2005, 09:40 AM

Ricky had 108 wins when I left. Chris told me he won at least four more (112), then just gave up. 20-30 wins is an understatement. I know how much you spent that day. I wasn't even going to say anything.

tsukaihatasu

08-02-2005, 10:03 AM

If Ricky had 108+ then you are talking about a different day. Ricky had 101 when I was there. When he got to 101 he gave his game up. And the rotation was long (6+) before Ricky got to 80+, but when he got really up there everyone else quit.

You know how much I spent? Really? How much did I spend then? I only went to the arcade that day with $10. How many tokens does that buy at Bearcade? 80? 100? Man, you guys are funny. Chris told you 112? Chris himself claims he has a bad memory(can't remember how many he lost by the end of the day). We know all about that day, because we(Hydro, Sam, and I) still talk about it. Ricky was playing with Ken, and gave his game up at 101. Period.

--tsukaihatasu

PS. I wonder why people brag about other peoples' feats. Anytime you want to, you can challenge me and let me run up my OWN 100+ on you.

(THE) Geese

08-02-2005, 11:09 AM

that's 'cuz you're the supervisor of Team Loblaws :lol:.

Food Basics is where it's at :lol:. man, i miss TO.

:rock:

lol true

chicken

08-02-2005, 11:12 AM

PS. I wonder why people brag about other peoples' feats. Anytime you want to, you can challenge me and let me run up my OWN 100+ on you.You're assuming things. I don't need to act as a delegate for Ricky or yourself. I posted to correct David based on an incident I witnessed with my own eyes. Then you claimed it was 101 wins, which did not correspond with what I saw. If you're talking about a different day, then the discussion is over. But if you must ask, I saw Ricky hit at least 108 wins, and you spend at least 3 old-fives. I know because I changed 'em for you.

And we already know I (and countless others) don't care to compete with you in 3S for reasons you're already aware of.

tsukaihatasu

08-02-2005, 11:26 AM

3 old fives is 72 tokens. So I lost 72 times to Ricky and everyone else only played 29 games?

Nope. I spent 10 $1 bills. I always(almost) spend $1 dollar at a time,and that particular day I spent the whole $10 my lady handed me when I left the house. The day I am talking about, you(Bihn if Im right) were standing at the door when the machine was still by the back door, Ricky was on 2nd player side, playing Ken(white gi), wearing a gray sweater, and you weren't even in the front. I didn't get a single old five, I played Ricky's game when he quit, and I stayed and played afterwards, because I wasn't even out of money.

Now, since Chris is your witness, ask him how often I get old fives from him. The answer is rarely, because I never do that. I usually only spend $2-3 at Bearcade and maybe $5 or so on a bad day. Do you really think I'm spending 5 everytime I go the machine? How many times do you think I lose if I go to the machine 3 times in a day? 72? Really?

--tsukaihatasu

chicken

08-02-2005, 11:38 AM

I worked the first half that day. I remember giving you at least two fives, especially because you rarely spend that much. The only information I got from Chris was what happend AFTER win #108. So his liability ends there. That's all that's left to this discussion.

tsukaihatasu

08-02-2005, 11:46 AM

What day was it(of the week)? I'm sure you don't remember. What happened to the third five? Apparently it vanished.

Lies.
What a shame.

I want to apologize to everyone else for being off-topic, but this is what I was talking about with SOME of the Bearcade crew being out to get me. For reasons Im already aware of('Bin-Laden beard', 'ugly', 'stank', 'BLACK', etc). Bearcade, --the only place I've ever been to where racists feel comfortable enough to brag about it and give people 'cool'(racist) nicknames like "Blakuma".

Thanks you guys,
--tsukaihatasu

chicken

08-02-2005, 11:55 AM

I conceded the third five because you insisted that you only had $10. Rather than think "Oh, I'm right and everybody's wrong," I took the course of "Fine, let's try the argument with a compromise." Because $10 in fives is 48 tokens, and 40 tokens in singles. That's 40 games. What happened to 20-30? Lies! What a shame! It was a Saturday. If I had an underlying motive, I would've called you out from the beginning. Nah, I just tried to correct David.

If you think you're the only person getting nicknames, I'm sorry to burst your bubble--you're not.

You should really try not resorting to arguments like "Lies!" and "You're just weak and disrespectful."

Being hated seems to be your primary source of attention judging from how you present yourself. I'm starting to think you love it.

tsukaihatasu

08-02-2005, 11:58 AM

Whatever man.

You win.

--tsukaihatasu

The Demon

08-03-2005, 04:23 PM

Just out of plain curiosity, how long did it take Ricky to pile up 100+? Im guessing 4 hrs.

Ricky lives in the EC now or soemthing? He's constantly hanging out with empire the way I hear it.

Sdouble

08-03-2005, 10:59 PM

this thread is getting gay!!!! stick to strategy for the love of TEH!! GOD!!! still no one has answered my questiona about the oro match up.

and no offense tsukaihatasu but please stop bragging, cause it does seem like u strive for attention and shit, i mean u've said so many times in this thread about all the r demons u land, ur win streaks etc.. Please dog, keep it strategy based. I know people have came at u but everyone should just chill. take it to yalls thread in discussion and matchmaking or something.. and also lest we forget how much strategy u said u keep secret, if it was secret why did u lose 30 times to someone, couldn't u figure sum'n out on him, or did he figure ur secrets out... i mean i know ricky would pwn me for free but please stop the bragging and putting down of akuma in the same thread. i'm not trying to flame/put u down or whatever but i'm just sick of all the shit talking that goes on on srk. it is retarted....

(THE) Geese

08-04-2005, 02:24 AM

btw, i wouldn't buy his "secret" strats...ppl who say that usually don't have jack shit...and about akuma's rushdown demon flips, you definetly CAN'T uppercut that shit without guessing or trading. Early divekicks trade with uppercuts in Akuma's favor, and if they are blocked, they are not like regular jumpins where you can throw them, the Demonflip has too much blockstun...PLUS Akuma has the easiest anti-throw option in the game...rh hurricane beats throws and is 95% of the time safe on block...sooo...good luck trying to throw a Demonflip divekick...tons and TONS of other shit that Akuma has to fuck up defensive attempts when he's rushing down...but point is, you can't just SRK that shit without knowing the consequences..

ok more here...if you try to throw an early blocked Demonflip Divekick, you will eat a close fierce which comes out very fast (shoto close fierces have always been counter hit beasts), and if akuma cancelled into another Demonflip Divekick, good luck trying to uppercut it now that you're in hitstun...

if you tried to jumpaway, that is prolly the smartest thing you can do, and there is a good chance that a shoto jumpback rh will beat a Demonflip, but there is no followup, and no knockdown, so it's still neutral for either opponent...which is good for Akuma...

but neway...Demonflips are goooood...the best rushdown tool Akuma has...it doesn't even matter if the Akuma is semi-predictable with them, most characters have a hardtime dealing with them even if they know it's coming...

tsukaihatasu

08-05-2005, 08:08 AM

No offense Geese, but that last post was nonsense. Demon flip dive kick does NOT trade with DP(usually) and if they block the DF they can usually throw you for free afterwards because Akuma can be thrown out of st.FP AND st.MK. He can even be thrown out of tatsu when its started too close. Now if you dive from a farther distance, you have NO chance of trading with DP. It always wins. It ALWAYS loses to EX DP by the way.

To SDouble, the Ricky 100+ happened a very long time ago(1yr+) and since then he has only been able to get short streaks on me at best. Part of the reason I lost is because he completely shutdown DF, with DP(+2nd j.DP) BTW, and he shutdown RD with j.DP and ex.DP. You guys seem to think Ricky is just some average player, but Ricky is actually one of the top 3 in the tournament circuit. We were playing Ken vs Akuma, and since Ricky was better than me at the time, and I was naive about Akuma's DF+RD, and Ken >>> Akuma in 3rd strike, I lost a lot. But I did better the very next time I played him because I learned my lesson about being unnecessarily aggressive and unsafe.

BTW, SDouble you ARE flaming(insulting) again. If you look at the previous posts, I am simply responding to insults. I guess insulting people who disagree with you is the modus operandi of the majority of posters here, but, if you notice, I didn't say a single thing about my skills before the insults began.

Insulting me is most likely NOT the way to get information out of me. I fight a pretty decent Oro(SAIII) at Berkeley all the time and I win consistently(80-90%). So I COULD say something(Geese), but I think I'm done here.

Good luck people,
--tsukaihatasu

kal el

08-05-2005, 12:54 PM

:lol:

Chun-Li can s. jab her way out of demon flip set-ups, so there's no reason to think why you can't EX Uppercut out of it.

:rock:

Sdouble

08-05-2005, 01:04 PM

sorry man, i just get pissed when people are stubborn, b/c i'm stubborn lol. but come on please don't come into a forum talkinga about win streaks and how akuma sucks and all ur "secrets" when this is a strategy forum not a bragging forum. I can tell u have knowledge, i'm sorry to have offended, but please just share or get out, don't basically say u won't share by saying "secrets" and some other things u said just seemed out of context. like the whole tokens argument and all that shiz, let's just learn in here aight..Yes i did flame, sorry man.

My bad, please let's get back to strategy, sorry for getting angry, i just want to learn and i hate wasting my time and yours with insults and all this win streak/secret/ stuff. Let's just share and discuss, and prosper in 3s.

Sorry man,
Scott

(THE) Geese

08-05-2005, 02:47 PM

No offense Geese, but that last post was nonsense. Demon flip dive kick does NOT trade with DP(usually) and if they block the DF they can usually throw you for free afterwards because Akuma can be thrown out of st.FP AND st.MK. He can even be thrown out of tatsu when its started too close. Now if you dive from a farther distance, you have NO chance of trading with DP. It always wins. It ALWAYS loses to EX DP by the way.

Uh what? So it doesn't trade with DP's...USUALLY? wtf does that mean? Do you understand the concept of a counter hit? They are in blockstun from the divekick, they try to throw, and they eat a counter hit close fierce (although 3s doesn't register counter hits like Alpha3 and CVS2 does, they still exist). And btw, I'm pretty damn sure Akuma CAN'T be thrown out of a rh Hurricane even if it done pointblank...we're not talking about Ken or Ryu's Hurricane kicks here...Akuma's is OTG first frame. Why do you think Urien has so much trouble with repeated rh Hurricanes? If he could throw Akuma out of his Hurricane, don't you think Urien would be doing that more often? And finally, about the ALWAYS losing...I've traded with Ken's fierce SRK before...don't say ALWAYS because you are not a God and so there is no way you have tested every possible scenario.

kal el:

jabs beating jumpin attacks has NOTHING to do with priority...it's just the fact that they are coming out before the hit animation begins...similar to how some players use a jab as anti-air...try using a jab as anti-air against an early Shoto rh...it will get mauled...if the Divekick is getting beat by early Chun jab, then Akuma is not doing it early enough.

GoLD-ReaVeR

08-06-2005, 03:14 AM

If demonflip is that special air to ground kick, if misaimed and mistimed you can srk and even kara srk akuma without trading. If it's high you'd have to srk early or parry. It's what I beat cpu on 99% of the time.

Donkus

08-08-2005, 08:18 AM

Uh what? So it doesn't trade with DP's...USUALLY? wtf does that mean? Do you understand the concept of a counter hit? They are in blockstun from the divekick, they try to throw, and they eat a counter hit close fierce (although 3s doesn't register counter hits like Alpha3 and CVS2 does, they still exist). And btw, I'm pretty damn sure Akuma CAN'T be thrown out of a rh Hurricane even if it done pointblank...we're not talking about Ken or Ryu's Hurricane kicks here...Akuma's is OTG first frame. Why do you think Urien has so much trouble with repeated rh Hurricanes? If he could throw Akuma out of his Hurricane, don't you think Urien would be doing that more often? And finally, about the ALWAYS losing...I've traded with Ken's fierce SRK before...don't say ALWAYS because you are not a God and so there is no way you have tested every possible scenario.

Just give up, you can't beat theoryfighter! I bet that guy's top tier at gamefaqs.

Sdouble

08-08-2005, 10:21 AM

gamefaqs is where all the champions learn lol...Strategy is so much better than this gutter trash. can some one help me out with the oro match up when he's using yagou dami(spelling?)

300ZX

08-08-2005, 02:48 PM

hold on...i read up to pg 2...then i stopped..why?

this reminds me two ppl

1) srwilson
2) masterakuma

all claim to be the best
all avoid sharing their "100%" or "elite combos"
and worst of all,
all claim to be the unbeatable king of ___ region.

just one question, you said in first post, akuma is best as a defensive style(not turtle)

then on page two, you said, "to all akuma, rushdown and good luck"

so, rushdown=defensive according to you?

retards are like a race. they come and come and come. never ending flow of retards.

CyanideAssassin

08-08-2005, 08:10 PM

This thread has gotten ridiculous. Talk is cheap, which is why my challenge still stands. :)

Rashiodown

08-08-2005, 10:24 PM

Sorry, but thegeese is right on this one. SRKs do trade with divekicks if the akuma player times it correctly. And there's no way you can throw him during his hurricane kick, he's airborne from frame 1.

Sdouble: Remember since you're Akuma you always have the added option of reversal teleport out of Yagyou setups. Stay out of Oro's RH poking range since the stun on that will make you cry. If you're not careful Oro can destroy you by simply using his mp, mk and rh to poke you to death. He can duck your ground hurricane so don't overabuse it, but air-to-air hurricane is great for getting around double jump rh bs. You own him at throw range so kara-throw the crap outa him. If you're desperate, do wakeup KKZ when he tries to pull Yagyou on you for crazy results.

(THE) Geese

08-09-2005, 12:56 AM

tsukaihatasu

08-09-2005, 05:07 PM

I thought I was finished, but some clarifications:

First to 300ZX:

"to all akuma, rushdown and good luck"

This is called SARCASM. I guess YOU call planet Retard 'home'.

To (the) Geese:

The word usually actually translates to 'most of the time'. The DF->DK only trades with late uppercuts(they do the uppercut too late). If they do the uppercut at the right time(read: Anytime BEFORE the dive kick is hitting them) Akuma gets hit...with no trade.

To the children saying/implying I got my knowledge from Gamefaqs:

I don't believe in FAQS. I think they detract from the game experience and only garbage chumps RELY on them. I guess if the game is very old, it's acceptable --otherwise it just shows weakness. I have NEVER relied on/used FAQS to learn moves or strategies, I earned my knowledge the old-fashioned way, by playing at the arcade. I guess that seems unbelievable to the youngins here, who can't even remember that until 1994, the web was all text-only Lynx-based browsers and gamefaqs.com didn't even exist.

To cyanideAssassin:

I thought I accepted your challenge before(?). I just haven't had time to go to SVGL, but as soon as I have a chance I will be there and YOU will be the first person to know I'm coming. If you're in a hurry to face me, I can break away from my work for a bit and see you at Berkeley.

Finally, it is finished. I have been leaving sarcastic comments all over the place, but since the wit it is lost on some of you(300zx- the distinguished gentleman from planet retard), I will spell out what I have been saying indirectly:

You are free to play however you want to play, and it's best that you use whatever strategy earns you the most wins. You can use rushdown if you like, but it will lead to you getting crushed by veteran players.

My aim with this thread was simply to hear different views about the best style of play with Akuma; I have been playing with Akuma for years(and years), and it's rare to talk or run into another successful Akuma. Instead, people flooded this thread with ulblisht(yes: BS) about how Akuma has free and safe rushdown capability. I personally feel it is irresponsible to give struggling and/or potentially new players wrong information about playing, which could lead to formation of bad habits, large and demoralizing losses, and a negative view of Akuma in general.

If you know ahead of time what to expect with Akuma, you have a better chance of developing a style you can consistently win with. If you just believe that you can rushdown and go crazy with Akuma and win, you are bound to be disappointed and discouraged when you find yourself taking heavy losses, and will probably end up dropping the character.

Bye now vets/children/idiots/Retardians,
--tsukaihatasu

Oh, BTW Akuma certainly CAN be thrown out of the tatsumaki, as this move has 1-2 frames of startup(depending on button) where Akuma is still on the ground. Chun's kara(and others) can grab Akuma even though you saw the first frames and heard the sound of the move's startup(not theoretical, this happens to me frequently). Incidentally, this is also why Akuma can do tatsu->RD(this is real, I have done it many times).

And before you respond to this part of the post, please do your homework BEFORE you call me a liar. Thanks.

CyanideAssassin

08-09-2005, 05:15 PM

To cyanideAssassin:

I thought I accepted your challenge before(?). I just haven't had time to go to SVGL, but as soon as I have a chance I will be there and YOU will be the first person to know I'm coming. If you're in a hurry to face me, I can break away from my work for a bit and see you at Berkeley.

No hurry man, my post was more directed towards everyone else in this thread. It seems everyones jumping all over you with all these arguments, and have been for what, like 2 weeks now?:lol:
I feel the only way to really know if somthing works or not is to face the person in a match, you can only tell so much from an online conversation.

Thats all I meant by that, Ive been pretty busy myself lately and have only been to SVGL like twice in the last 2 weeks. I might drive up to Bearcade sometime in the next month or so, just to check it out, Ill let you know if Im coming up. Otherwise Ill tty whenever youve got the time to come down.
Later. :tup:

nanitaberu

08-09-2005, 05:18 PM

Tastumaki > Rd?? You Can Do That!?!?!?!?

tsukaihatasu

08-09-2005, 05:37 PM

Yes.

--tsukaihatasu

Sdouble

08-09-2005, 07:18 PM

Umm...people never said just rush down and don't worry about i gave many examples of safe rush patterns and all u could say was "that is easily parried" yes if u know it's coming, but that is hard to do in the middle of a match and during footsies/mindgames. no one, unless they suck with akuma, just does demon flip when it's easy to see coming, or just whore the same moves all day, wiht akuma u have to mix it up, but that goes for everyone in this game.

So... wow, yeah u rule and are a great strategy player if that's all u can say, yes u did provide some good stuff but all u lately really do is talk about stuff like how many tokens u lost to ortiz, challenges and how akuma is not good. this does not belong in a thread that is supposed to help people get better with him. that wasn't even getting dif views. most of ur strategy u gave, i mean it was just theory fighting plain and simple.

so we all shold just chill and enjoy 3s.

damn it's like mummy said SRK=Stupid retarted kids.

(THE) Geese

08-09-2005, 10:02 PM

You can't throw Akuma out of his rh Hurricane...stop smoking the crack pipe buddy.

nanitaberu

08-10-2005, 12:39 PM

so can u like cancel a fierce SRK into RD too!?!?!!?

GoLD-ReaVeR

08-10-2005, 01:23 PM

Is it usefull?

300ZX

08-10-2005, 02:57 PM

no, your aim of this thread is to get attention, to proclaim to be the best akuma, to lie about having the best strat without giving any detail, to be one of those 2000 millions akuma fanboy who has nothing to do except masturbate to the tian symbol on a nightly basis.

sadly, your idol akuma can't handle chun, yun or ken on a general level. is there exception? yeah, match and others. but you are not one of them. you're just some cocky cock sucker who loves to suck akuma or anyone with a tian symbol on his back cock. slurp away son. slurp away.

nanitaberu: as long as akuma's on the ground, you can cancel any move into RD. hp srk is slow in getting off the ground, so it's really easy. standing fierce, standing jab, anything. as long as you're quick in reflex and akuma isn't jumping in the air already. this also implies to whiff moves.

Rashiodown

08-11-2005, 06:39 AM

lmao, this is ridiculous.

Why do people still wonder why the top players never post when you have threads like this scumming up the strat forums?

Let's screw strategy and do top tier stuff like c.rh into RD all day. :clap:

nanitaberu

08-13-2005, 12:52 PM

What about Hadouken~?~?

tsukaihatasu

08-13-2005, 04:23 PM

Nanitaberu: Yes. You can cancel any ground attack to RD, but if you hit them or they block, they will be able to jump out.

300zx: I never said I was the best, and the purpose of this thread was to understand the rationale of people who believe rushdown Akuma is best. As far as being able to beat Yun,Chun,etc.: Talk is cheap. Come play me, since you think you're good enough to insult me. I would be shocked if someone like you(a native of Planet Retard, or a Retardian, if you will) could beat me even once, with ANY character.

--tsukaihatasu

nanitaberu

08-13-2005, 04:31 PM

you guys be quiet, we all know nanitaberu has the best akuma

300ZX

08-15-2005, 08:17 PM

son, i have the best strategy in my hands. i'll not show it to share with anyone. NEVER. and i'll talk big to make myself look bigger than a cereal box. finally, i'll give out very average advice to people so they think i'm good.

hahaha, shit, i just pulled a tsukaihatasu.

--300zx

ps. fuck your name too. so fucking long ass fucking useless. i'll refer you as "shit" from now on, ok?

Sdouble

08-16-2005, 12:50 PM

Quoting: 300ZX
ps. fuck your name too. so fucking long ass fucking useless. i'll refer you as "shit" from now on, ok?
_______________________
funniest eva!!!!!! lmfaoroflolcopter, but so, so true remember when he said he had "trade secrets" and everyone one at berkley would love to be able to beat him, lol 2nd funniest eva!!

tsukaihatasu

08-16-2005, 01:27 PM

300zx and SDouble:

I bet any amount of cash that neither of you would insult me to my face. e-Bitches and e-Gangsters never cease to surprise me.

Clearly, you two are young children, so i'll say this and leave it alone. There is a lot of good advice on how to play with Akuma in this thread. There is also information on my 'trade-secrets', although you have to actually PLAY the game to understand it. You decide what you get out of what you read, but it seems that 300zx lacks reading comprehension skills, and SDouble can't understand anything that doesn't include an insult.

--tsukaihatasu

PS. Where do you cowards(300zx/Sdouble) play(arcade)? I might stop by one day. It doesn't matter what country you're in, so please, don't be too shy to post.

300ZX

08-16-2005, 02:22 PM

"PS. Where do you cowards(300zx/Sdouble) play(arcade)? I might stop by one day. It doesn't matter what country you're in, so please, don't be too shy to post."

i'm in calgary, canada. i welcome you anyday. pm me whenever you're around my city.

(THE) Geese

08-16-2005, 04:06 PM

ps. fuck your name too. so fucking long ass fucking useless. i'll refer you as "shit" from now on, ok?

hahaha that was good.

Rashiodown

08-17-2005, 04:13 AM

Clearly, you two are young children, so i'll say this and leave it alone. There is a lot of good advice on how to play with Akuma in this thread. There is also information on my 'trade-secrets', although you have to actually PLAY the game to understand it.
I live in Singapore. I highly doubt you're willing to come all the way here to prove your point, but bring it.

P.S, what's wrong with "young children" playing 3S? I'm 15 and I'm one of the best at my arcade. Have fun trying to throw me out of RH hurricane, in any case.

GoLD-ReaVeR

08-17-2005, 04:37 AM

I live in the netherlands, if you want you could have a casual against me. :pleased:

Donkus

08-17-2005, 11:21 AM

Way to spread that drama, Tsu.

So far you've boasted about how good you are, posted some average info, some incorrect info, and then insulted people who tried to correct you.

The onus is on you to prove you have some killer new strategy. The way you're going about this, theoryfighter, is the wrong way. Prove yourself in a major tournament. No one cares about how many Demons you landed one day in an arcade.

Evo just happened, so why didn't you go? You're telling people you'll come to their home turf to own them but you wouldn't go to the most respected tourny in at least the US, which is in the same state as you (aren't you in California?), to prove what you're saying?

This just adds to the stuff that makes you sound like you're fresh out of gamefaqs.

tsukaihatasu

08-17-2005, 12:37 PM

Actually, Evo was in Las Vegas, which is in the state of Nevada. I didn't go because of the time and costs involved. The last tournament I was in was in the Northwest regionals last year(first half I think) and I placed 9th(name: LChe).

As far as proving my skills by posting my strategy, this thread proves that is impossible, even if I wanted to. If you post solid information, and everyone calls 'theory fighter' on it just because they don't understand it, the situation is hopeless. My way of thinking about playing with Akuma is discernable from my previous posts, but since you can't understand the essence of my style from my words, the only thing left to me is show and prove. Seeing videos of play in a tournament don't reveal anything, you have to experience combat with an opponent first-hand in order to truly understand their style, at least in my opinion. Therefore, the way to settle this argument is to simply fight(3s) the people who disagree with what I've said, although a few of you might benefit from fighting me(physically).

Canada, Singapore and the Netherlands huh? I have actually been talking about going to Toronto to visit Biddle's(a jazz joint) so a stop in Calgary is not out of the question. I would love to meet the Retardian who knighted me "shit".
A friend of mine has been pestering me to visit Singapore as chance would have it, and it would be great if there was 3s competition if I went(My friend really loved Singapore). And the Netherlands are kind of out of the way, but I have been thinking about taking a trip to Finland to visit friends for the longest time. I didn't even know there was an arcade industry there, go figure. I will probably go to Japan again, before going anywhere else, but I might just be seeing you guys.

As far as being children is concerned, the simple fact is that, if you are under 18, I started playing StreetFighter before you were born. It sounds crazy, but SFI came out in late 1987, and I was right there playing it. We could argue all day about the relevance of age with regard to SF, but it is a fact that certain people taking part in this discussion have a problem understanding what they are reading, some clearly lack experience playing with Akuma(3s) and even SF in general, and some seem to like insulting others more than discussing the topic at hand; I would wager they are still children. To be fair, I knew that I would be dealing with some kids here, but I hoped there would be some Akuma professionals mixed in.

--tsukaihatasu

Daidoji Kage

08-17-2005, 02:05 PM

RH hurricane

ha ha

Sdouble

08-17-2005, 02:12 PM

Dumb shit u have said:

"Akuma has the longest super meters in the game"

umm...okay

"5) Jump in hp, land, standing hp into hp shoryuken does not do half stun on anyone. Well maybe Akuma and Yun/Yang."

U are a retard telling me i don't know akuma, wow u rule dood.

"Seeing videos of play in a tournament don't reveal anything"

umm...okay

"I won't explain my thinking, as my techniques are trade secrets(all the guys at Berkeley would kill to know how to beat me)"
SO ur thinking is what makes u godly?

"6) Dash/Kara RD can be avoided by aware opponents. Some characters, most notably Elena and Urien, can throw Akuma out of RD easily."

Why would someone risk the rd just for throw damage u dumb shit.

"As far as sharing, I did kind of explain my thinking a little in one of the posts. I don't want to go into specifics, for my protection. I've been playing at the arcade since I was 8(20+yrs) and it has cost me a lot of blood, tears, sweat, and money to gain my knowledge. This is not a shot at you, its just that people who I play against all the time are on this forum, and I don't want to tell them how to beat me. I don't really do any moves or combos that haven't been seen(well maybe a couple), it's really my style and the way I mix things up that allows me to win."

So all u do is mix it up. wow post one example of a mix/combe up u do that is godly, new or in any way not a typical shoto mix up u dumb fuck tard.

ALot of what u say is dumb, i'm not being petty, u are, if this place is gay quit posting for attention and making challenges.
GO back to gamefaqs means posting about how ur good and have new combos, but u never provide shit but shit, not that u acctually are on gamefaqs.
i tried to make peace and all u do is talk about tokens, landing one move, the rd. Face it u have no secrets, so just go away to gamefaqs land u dumb shit. Come to georgia and i'll insult u in ur face. Yeah let's bet one gabillion million dollars, are u kidding me i will insult anyone to their face for any amount of money, so once u again u have said something retarted.

So go fuck off if ur gonna be this gay. Yes i'm insulting u, b/c all u've showed me is dumbness.

Even if u are good at 3s it doesn't matter cause all u do is post dumb shit, so u are owning ur self, idiot.
Kthxbye biatch.

tsukaihatasu

08-17-2005, 02:39 PM

Why would someone risk the rd just for throw damage u dumb shit.

The above quote is proof of my point about children. It illustrates Sdouble's lack of experience in the game, inability to understand what he reads, and his willingness to insult, instead of learn. Thanks man.

for you, SDouble:

You go DEEP cr.HK(sweep). Your opponent blocks the sweep and just as they recover from block stun they cr.jab. You go RD. Now this should be a free RD, as you are right on top of them and they are helpless. They throw you and you are standing there scratching your head thinking WTH.

You go cr.LK(x3). Your opponent blocks. You dash backwards, your opponent throws out cr.MK, which misses, and you follow their retracting leg with dash forward->RD. Now this should be a free RD, as you are right on top of them and they are helpless. They throw you and you are standing there scratching your head thinking WTF.

Why did they try to throw? Desperation, because they knew it was over. How did they throw you? Because Akuma is easily thrown out of RD against certain characters.

You are riduculous SDouble. AND FOS. I probably won't be hitting Georgia anytime soon, so you're safe for now.

--tsukaihatasu

300ZX

08-17-2005, 04:03 PM

bring it "shit"
and i'm way too old to be called "children". i'm OG player. not one of the newer generation players..

so "shit" don't shit in your pants when you play me. cuz that'd be shitty.

Sdouble

08-17-2005, 06:04 PM

so maybe that one is wrong against a few characters but a dash raging demon is pretty hard to see coming, i mean u act like it happens all the time, that people get thrown out of rd.
i have a match video where a jap. urien is blocking and frankie3s lands dash raging demon because he was on top oh him, so why didn't urien throw him. i know this is one example but u show me one match vid where a akuma gets thrown that isn't a combo video. if it exists i'll retract my statement "shit".
so once again thanks for the theory fighting but go jack off to the 3s strategy guide pics of chun li "shit"

but where are u answers to the other retarted things u posted "shit" why don't u answer those u idiot. and i'm 20 years old so yeah i'm a child i guess.\

oh and why don't u post just one of ur secrets so we can believe u, oh wait b/c u dont' have shit "shit".

CyanideAssassin

08-18-2005, 01:11 AM

Sdouble, grow up.

GoLD-ReaVeR

08-18-2005, 03:42 AM

Canada, Singapore and the Netherlands huh? I have actually been talking about going to Toronto to visit Biddle's(a jazz joint) so a stop in Calgary is not out of the question. I would love to meet the Retardian who knighted me "shit". A friend of mine has been pestering me to visit Singapore as chance would have it, and it would be great if there was 3s competition if I went(My friend really loved Singapore). And the Netherlands are kind of out of the way, but I have been thinking about taking a trip to Finland to visit friends for the longest time. I didn't even know there was an arcade industry there, go figure. I will probably go to Japan again, before going anywhere else, but I might just be seeing you guys.

Actually, the Netherlands has about 4-5 arcades iirc. None of them rolls 3s. Also; I wasn't serious or anything:P but it would be nice if more people would show up at dutch tournaments:)

CloudZero1

08-26-2005, 01:43 AM

Respectfully, everyone has their own style, BUT here's some food for thought. The only strategy one should have is the effective one for the situation present. I do not believe there is an ultimate universal akuma that can beat anyone save for one that is constantly flexible and adaptive to each different situation at that certain point in time. That is pretty much the answer to everything as you will see in terms of strategy. Im not saying your akuma is flawed or bad, and if you win with your own unique style and proud of it, good for you. But take the recent 5 on 5 match video on a-cho where one akuma beat all 5 other members, he was had a pretty consistent game ranging from fire ball mix ups and juggles. On one hand, he was one chun li SA1 away from losing, but he was so aggressive and tricky in his game that he ended up winning, does that mean you should apply the same technique to all chuns? Definitely not, as we reach towards a higher level of play, we have to understand that it is not the CHARACTER weaknesses but the player weaknesses. So all I really have to say is, what is your goal? to keep playing with your "defensive style" or do whatever it takes to win the match.

tsukaihatasu

09-01-2005, 06:13 PM

I personally always do whatever is necessary to win the match. That sometimes means switching from defense to agressive offense, but the question posed here was about what should be the DEFAULT modus operandi. Some people think rushdown, but in consideration of the character and my own experiences, I think a defensive bearing is more practical with Akuma.

I agree that character selection can not accurately predict the outcome of a match, but in 3s it seems that given opponents of equal skill(game system+knowledge+strategy), the choice of character becomes MORE important instead of less. That is why, in my opinion, Ken/Chun/Yun are the most commonly selected and successful characters in tournaments and Akuma is rarely seen. That is not to say that it is impossible to compete with Akuma, it's just harder than competing with Chun.

Without playing to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, your success or failure largely becomes pure chance; the outcome is completely in your opponent's hands. If they captialize on exposed weaknesses, they win, if not, you win. In a sense, every battle is like this. However, your style of play, strategy, knowledge of the game, and physical ability combine to weight the outcome of match.

Style of play is listed as a seperate factor because I tend to think of SOP as habits and execution. Bad habits and poor execution can combine to nullify all other factors(e.g. it doesn't matter if you know all the moves in a combo if you can't execute it). Poor execution can be corrected failry easily with practice, but bad habits are harder because when something is truly a habit, you do it without conscious thought. It takes a little while to form a habit, stemming from habitual repetition, but breaking a habit is a true challenge.

Having bad habits, meaning habits that maximize the weakness of the character you play with, hurt your chances of winning consistently, regardless of which character you choose. But it hurts more if you have bad habits and play with Akuma. I think rushdown as a default style of play leads to the formation of habits which leave Akuma in vulnerable positions often, and can subsequently lead to frequent losses due to playing against the design of the character. Akuma has good offensive possibilities and has extreme defensive deficiencies. A balanced approached to offense and defense seems best to me, yet the advice to players on this forum is frequently "rushdown as much as possible, and don't worry about getting punished because nobody ever punishes me when I rushdown like crazy with tatsu"(creative license). I just wanted to understand why, and now I do.

I personally usually err on the side of a more denfensive style, because I believe Akuma's stamina, glaring vulnerability during certain attacks, and poor recovery time outweight any offensive advantages he may possess.

--tsukaihatasu

GoLD-ReaVeR

09-02-2005, 02:57 AM

Actually if skill increases, character choice becomes less important, otherwise KSK's vids would be featuring a LOT more kens, a LOT more Yuns and even a LOT more Chuns. And then Frankie3s wouldn't even have made it onto one of those vids.

tsukaihatasu

09-02-2005, 07:31 AM

KSK's vids mainly have Kens,Yuns and Chuns. How many have you watched? If you actually count the number of times each character is picked by a DIFFERENT person you'll see this is true. For instance, Kokujin appears in a lot of those videos using Dudley, but he is usually the only one using him. You just see numerous matches with him because he keeps winning. As far as Frankie is concerned, he is incredibly good at parrying, so everyone has trouble playing him. Still Frankie is usually not placing first in major tournaments, and in my opinion that is simply because of the characters he chooses. If he played with Chun he would grab the top three spots consistently. I know because I've played him quite a few times, and playing with Ryu(Akuma) limits him. In terms of skills and knowledge, he's better than most of the players winning the tournaments.

And although in general it is true that as player skill improves, characters factor out, 3s doesn't follow this pattern at all. The parrying system, ghost recovery, command throws, kara throws, EX moves, variable length super meters, and the facing bug combine to make character selection the dominant factor in the game. Ryu vs Chun, when Frankie faces someone with way less skill than him, he's likely to win. If his opponent has similar but less skill than him, Frankie is at a disadvantage. If skills are equal, it's likely Frankie will lose. This is not a knock on Frankie; it's just Chun is WAY better than Ryu. She has more options and more tools.

Some games like Samurai 2 had a better balance than 3s because the game system was smaller, making it easy(ier) for the designers to balance the game. 3s has a large system+bugs, and from the way the game plays, it seems like the game wasn't even play tested, let alone refactored by the designers to achieve balance.

One thing you also have to realize is that games are frequently purposely designed to have very cheap characters. The idea is that this improves the game's mass appeal, because it allows beginners to have early success and because some players prefer to have a major advantage over other players, and would lose interest if they had to work hard to play. If you don't believe it there are numerous interviews with japanese game designers where they express this idea clearly. I can recommend the interview with the designers of VOOT(Virtual-On 2), which is considered by fans to be a very serious game. Everybody who plays that game says the same thing, --Specinef is cheap. Well, apparently its because he was designed to be, according to the designers.

By design, or by mistake, 3s is NOT balanced, character is king, and player skill factors into the equation in such a way that characters become MORE important not LESS.

--tsukaihatasu

nanitaberu

09-02-2005, 01:40 PM

you're both off. player skill level does not make character selection more or less important. player's playstyle, maybe. if you want to prove me wrong explain how Kuroda's Q did so well against top tier characters on more than several occasions?

daigo beat jwong's chun with ken. chun's supposed to > ken. daigo's skill i'd say is roughly the same as jwong's. if skill factor increased the importance of match up ratios, then at daigo and jwong's level it should be nearly impossible for a ken to penetrate chun.

and lastly, 3S is not perfectly balanced, but pretty good compared to other fighters with a decent-sized roster.

people all say Yun Chun and Ken are untouchable, yet makoto dudley urien and gouki trails so close behind. hugo and Q have done exceptionally well at the last SBO. almost 85% of the roster is playable at the highest competitive level.

that's like 3 times more balanced than CVS2, MVC2, tekken and KOF?

l337v1n337

09-02-2005, 03:03 PM

actually t5 is pretty well balanced. more balanced than 3s atleast. Sure there are the top tier characters, but they all have certain weaknesses. If a player is good enough to know how to punish certain things and has a good guessing game, its on.

tsukaihatasu

09-02-2005, 03:27 PM

if you want to prove me wrong explain how Kuroda's Q did so well against top tier characters on more than several occasions?

Parry->Deadly Double Punch.

But seriously, Chun/Ken/Yun are pretty equal. And Kuroda doesn't place first, and Kuroda(Q) was destroyed by KO(Yun) at the last SBO, while Hayao(Hugo,his partner) took out KO, only to be defeated by Kokujin(Dudley). This matchup is a prime example of what I mean about bad habits and character dominance. Kuroda lost to KO because of character selection and skill difference. And while Yun > Hugo, KO lost because of bad habits(unlimited dive kicks and jump in two hits). Kokujin is more solid than KO(my opinion) in general, and adjusted during the match to win, rather than just relying on his habits. (Kokujin>=Hayao (strategy+knowledge))+(Dudley > Hugo)+(no exploitable bad habits+poor execution(for Hugo)) = Dudley wins.

Please watches the matches before attacking me. Thanks.

--tsukaihatasu

nanitaberu

09-02-2005, 03:47 PM

i've watched those matches enough times

hugo and yun are at the opposite ends of the tier list. KO, easily the best Yun around, has been defeated by a hugo.

you say "bad habits" like it's a seperate factor. bad habits = flawed gameplay = skill factor.

what i'm saying is, scrubtier Yun vs Hugo have the same matchup ratio as godtier Yun vs Hugo. skill level does not increase the effects of tiering dramatically. that's what you said.

tsukaihatasu

09-02-2005, 03:55 PM

In my posts above, I said style of play(SOP) = habits+execution. And the game I mentioned as more balanced than 3s was Samurai Showdown 2.

--tsukaihatasu

CyanideAssassin

09-02-2005, 03:56 PM

you both make very good arguments.

In Nanis favor, I have seen lower tier characters beast on many occasions , Chun and Yun, despite being extremely powerful, do have their weaknesses, and a good player can exploit them. They have natural advantages. The parry system honestly can turn a match ANY way. Regardless of weather or not Kuroda's Q used a parry into SA2 to win or not, he did win some tough matchups with a naturally bad character:lol: and thats gotta count for somthing. And dont get me started on Hugo:lol:. Taunt , taunt, taunt, taunt IM MADE OF STEEL! parry, 1, 2, 3 YOURE DEAD!!:lol:

In tsukaihatasu's favor, when you get people who have mastered their characters (KO, Daigo, Kokujin, NUKI) , you really see a characters advantage burning bright throughout the match (Yun 80% Genei Jins make me cry), and you really start to see why tiers were created in the first place. And look at a match like Makoto vs Akuma, or Urien SA2 vs Akuma, and tell me those arent ALWAYS gonna be tough matches for Akuma, regardless of the skill level:lol:

I think both of you are correct in your own ways.

Hol Horse

09-02-2005, 04:11 PM

(Kokujin>=Hayao (strategy+knowledge))+(Dudley > Hugo)+(no exploitable bad habits+poor execution(for Hugo)) = Dudley wins.

hayao having poor execution? lmao :lol:

CyanideAssassin

09-02-2005, 05:08 PM

Yeah Ive gotta agree with that Hol Horse, Ive watched the afformentioned SBO matches over and over again, and Hayao is QUITE good:lol:

tsukaihatasu

09-03-2005, 12:27 AM

I didn't mean Hayao had bad execution, I meant Kokujin had good execution, leaving Hayao no openings to take advantage of.

--tsukaihatasu

CyanideAssassin

09-04-2005, 01:06 AM

Parry->Deadly Double Punch.

Have you seen the match from the last SBO, Kuroda and Hayao vs Justin wong and ricky ortiz? For one thing he was using SA1 not 2, and he only used it once per round. In the match against ricky he didnt even get the full 3 taunts. Just watching him, teching Kens throws repeatedly , countering almost everything with juggles, and just in general controlling the match (vs Ken mind you). Not really meaning to argue but IMO (from what Ive seen of him) Kuroda is an awesome player and doesnt win by simply parrying into super alone.

tsukaihatasu

09-04-2005, 07:04 AM

I was joking to some degree, although it seems to me that Kuroda uses SAII when he's serious and SAI when he's not. There is no doubt about Kuroda having great skill, and my post was simply to illustrate the fact that in matchups between opponents of similar skill, the character becomes more of a factor in the outcome of the match, not less. Kuroda is an awesome Q player, but he only hit KO 2 or 3 times in 2 rounds. It seemed to me that this was because Yun > Q, his speed put Q the character, and thus Kuroda the player, at a massive disadvantage. Kuroda needed to parry most of the dive kicks KO threw at him, and he didn't. Since KO's main strategy is to stay in Genei as much as possible, Kuroda had a chance to convert KO's habit into an opening by parrying a 2hit sequence(or 1 hit->Deadly, if he is fast enough) but he failed to do so and was overpowered. Still, nobody would disparage Kuroda, for the obvious reason that his character selection, against an opponent of equal(or superior) skill using a superior character, resulted in a lopsided match in favor of KO.

--tsukaihatasu

nanitaberu

09-04-2005, 12:31 PM

instead of "effects of tiering increases with skill level", a better argument would be "effects of tierting increases with skill difference"

Q vs. Yun is a lopsided match, but that's true at any level of play.

my guess is that Kuroda picks his super art according to the opponent's character

300ZX

09-04-2005, 11:22 PM

hm, lots of stuff to read. but i'll skip tsukaihatasuasodfwelkfaosihfd's posts cuz that's like, whoa, 2 hrs reading right there..

Q usually go with sa2 against yun, yang, ibuki. why? cuz the damage and the fact that he probably only got one chance to use that super. simple as that.

kuroda is just a great turtle. that is all. stop analyzing his style or whatever. he's jsut extremely good at blocking and teching throws. and reading oppoent. then get his one chance and kill them right off. there is nothing else to say. speed, habit, etc. wtf does that have to do with kuroda sitting there for 30 secs of a match?

on the other side, nanis...you gotta remember....even though q and hugo beat a lot of ppl on that particular day....it's only one tourney. there's countless number of matches where yuns just destroy hugos/Qs. kuroda doesn't change the tier or anything. therefore, we should never bring the tier discussion or anything have to do with tiers in this thread.

CyanideAssassin

09-05-2005, 02:57 PM

^^^Round 3 IS always fun:lol:

nanitaberu

09-05-2005, 07:09 PM

yun DOES destroy hugo/Q

i'm just saying there are exceptions to everything so people gotta stop looking at tiers like its "i choose yun therefore i beat hugo for sure"

ParryAll

09-05-2005, 08:03 PM

Yeah, K.O. is hands down the worlds best Yun player, and Japanese Tier charts put Yun at the very top (followed by Makoto, then Chun then Ken. Yes, Makoto is considered higher tier in Japan). Hugo is at the bottom any way you slice it, and K.O. got flattened by someone who may or may not have been the best Hugo in the world. Regardless, by alot of peoples way of thinking around here (I.E. Tier whores), that is simply impossible. But it happened. Same with Chun and Ken (Justin and Ricky) losing to Kuroda's Q (badly).

Tiers exist and theres no need to get into an argument about that for the millionth time, but at least in 3s they are not the be all end all of the game.

Oh yeah and Aruka's Ibuki won the latest GamerVision Ranking Battle, beating the best Chun player in the world to get there. Basically anything is possible in this game, that's why it's so great.

CyanideAssassin

09-05-2005, 08:24 PM

Basically anything is possible in this game, that's why it's so great.

Here here!
HEALING!!! :karate:

nanitaberu

09-06-2005, 10:21 AM

Oh yeah and Aruka's Ibuki won the latest GamerVision Ranking Battle, beating the best Chun player in the world to get there. Basically anything is possible in this game, that's why it's so great.

not to mention schooling RX's godly urien

CyanideAssassin

09-06-2005, 06:26 PM

not to mention schooling RX's godly urien

:wow: got a link to the video? I love seeing Ibuki beast :clap:

300ZX

09-06-2005, 11:09 PM

go to gvision's thread in general forum

LiSyaoran

09-07-2005, 01:41 PM

:wow: got a link to the video? I love seeing Ibuki beast :clap:I second that like, hardcore.

arwoods

06-28-2006, 10:22 AM

hold on...i read up to pg 2...then i stopped..why?

this reminds me two ppl

1) srwilson
2) masterakuma

all claim to be the best
all avoid sharing their "100%" or "elite combos"
and worst of all,
all claim to be the unbeatable king of ___ region.

SrWilson has a beast of a akuma actually (When hes on form anyway) quite alot of people will vouch for this over here I am sure. I have not seen a single akuma player in europe or US who comes close, but thats judging from everything I have seen vids wise so don't argue. The only reason He acts a prat online is to wind people up. - he admitted this on MIRC.

Masterakuma is a total tossoff though he deserves every bit of hate he gets sf alpha 2 and cvs 1 tournys LOL.:rofl:

Hell Murder

06-28-2006, 05:06 PM

I understand what you are saying because it infact is better to play smart instead of doing blatant rushdown with Akuma. Although, RD isn't as bad as you say it is. True Kara RD could be very devasting because there's a random factor. Also, unless your opponent knows the setups he won't be able to escape especially if you Kara with close st. Rh.

pherai

07-01-2006, 04:20 AM

this thread sucks

Tigerboi

07-01-2006, 02:07 PM

I see it as common sense really....if you can't take hits well, isn't it smarter to do all the hitting instead of trying to construct a good defense?

I mean, if you want to construct a good defense and play reactivly.....why not play Q? That way, if your defense is broken, you'll at least have a durable character to take the punishment.

mo1016

07-24-2006, 03:18 PM

maybe b/c Q sucks? :rofl:

Basics

08-17-2006, 07:17 PM

Lol, this thread is fucking wack. I mean, fuck. I play some Akuma, I fucking suck with him though, hell I can't even hit confirm my c.mk -> supers, but that's beside the point. This thread is really rapidly degrading. I actually stopped reading once the man of the hour (his name starts with tsu... something. I hate Japanese names anyways, I'm not going to lie) said "eGangstas." This always gets to me, because it's really off-topic. I mean, we had a decent (if heated) strat discussion. This turned into a bit of a flaming-fest, but largely regarding the strategies. I can deal with that, then it turned into some straight up eDrama, you know what I'm sayin'? The actual strategy discussion became less and less the focus of the thread, which is sad, but hey! Let's be honest, everyone loves the occasional flame showdown. Whoever talks the best shit is right, makes sense to me.

The thread, in my opinion, reached it's lowest point when tsu said that whoever was smack-talking him wouldn't do so in real life, and suggested that all "eGangsters" are the same. I'm not even going to touch on the eBitches thing. Now, this gets to me because I didn't really see anyone posing as a gangster, well, anywhere here. Since when did good, old fashioned shit-talking become exclusive to "gangsters". I mean, I talk shit all the time, anywhere and everywhere, to anyone and everyone. Of course, when I do it, it's typically in jest. I don't see that as mattering that much, as even when I talk serious shit, I don't pose as a gangster, or a bitch for that matter.

Next comes the notion that the people talking shit to this tsu guy wouldn't do so in real life. Seeing as the only real reason I can think of for someone to shit-talk online and not in real life is because conflicts online can not degrade to their lowest point. You start off with an exchange of ideas, which turns into a debate, then a heated debate, then an argument, then an exchange of clever insults, then an exchange of blunt insults. Now, in a conflict in real life, the next stage would be a fight. We've all seen it happen, we've all watched the progression. The problem with the internet is, of course, when this becomes a habit, when people become used to ending conflicts with fighting, they become somewhat powerless. Whereas in real life, they could deliver a nice, honest-to-god, punch to the jaw (which is probably one of the best feelings you could ever have. I fucking love the feeling, damn!) On the internet, however, this instinct to resort to violence is reduced to "I could kick your ass IRL", or "You wouldn't talk to me that way in real life." As the argument manifested itself in this instance.

Now, I'm just going to level with you: I'm a 16-year-old, 145 pound white kid. I'm not a total wuss, and I wouldn't back down from a fight, and I do have some experience in the matter, but you (or most anyone) would probably floor me. Does this mean that I wouldn't talk shit to you in real life? Fuck no. Reducing someone to blows with your smack-talk is just as satisfying, if not even more satisfying than actually punching them. Plus, I mean, if you punch me, I'll punch you back and we'll scrap. By the end, whoever wins, at least in my experience, feelings of hostility tend to dissipate (or is that dissipitate, I can never remember). I have no idea how this works, but I mean it does. When two guys fight it out, it's like reducing everything to the bare-bone basics, and once you're done, there's nothing left to do. You've already progressed through all the stages of conflict resolution. One way or another, you've got your winner and fuck, you can be cool now.

But seriously, never suggest that I, or anyone else, wouldn't talk shit to you in real life. Like I said, I talk shit to everyone. Sometimes I end up saying the wrong thing to the wrong person, but fuck. I'm not going to stop shit-talking just because I'd get served in a fight, whatever man. Take the bad with the good, yo. That's what it's all about!

Just my uhh... 2 cents. Or if we're talking a penny a word, then it's more like $7.26. Heh, sorry about that, but I guess I'm just a verbose kinda guy.