Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

[SaveFighting]

I know the first 4 roughly, and the last few. In my strat guide i got a list if you really need that info. But i dont count in my head usually, i just look at the the timer if im watching for big hits like 5-final.

I just wanted to compare it with the rough test data that I came up with. :)

Using the in game clock here are the times I got.

1 = 1 second

2 = 4 seconds

3 = 7 seconds

4 = 13 seconds

5 = 24 seconds

6 = 36 seconds

7 = 46 seconds

Final = 56 seconds

[Khiempossible]

Yep. Just hating on AE because it makes winning harder. I agree that CE Bison is a scrubs dream but so is Chun in 3s, Blanka in CvS2 etc. It's good to have a character that separates the men from the boys.

Oops. You're probably losing a lot to him eh?

AE is the best old school game we have. If anything is too much bs, after Evo2k6 we can adjust the rules for future events. Now there are more choices and more match ups to know. Some matches will be super-less. Only straight play without a bunch of crutches. I LOVE it!

Don't hate. We can always play ST on the side and Evo could've been really weak and removed old school play altogether!!!

Don't be hatin on Shirts. His o.sim is hella fun to watch.

[NKI]

Also, was the video in any way tool assisted?The first tool-assisted vid I did was Volume VII (Evo 2004 Special). Everything before that was done 100% by hand. Let me tell you, doing vids by hand SUCKS...:sad:

I like how the first thing that comes up when you type NKI is this random boy band with like 80 people in it and hella Japanese girls screaming for 4 minutes.Oh man, I can't believe I actually watched that whole thing...:confused:

AE is the best old school game we have.What's the appeal of AE over ST...?

[Graham]

When I first started playing AE, grape1, me and my bro were loving the new variety. There is still alot of fun stuff. But CE Bison/Guile pretty much ruined the game. Once we got to experiment and find out all the bullshit, we realized how broken the game is. ST solely would be a welcome change compared to this game. CE Bison is just plain stupid.

[Kyokuji]

Pretty much.
A good portion of the cast is pretty much fucked against CE Bison.
At least O. Sagat couldn't chip you to death like that.

[Graham]

Pretty much.
A good portion of the cast is pretty much fucked against CE Bison.
At least O. Sagat couldn't chip you to death like that.

if by good portion you mean all but 1 character.

[Shirts]

When I first started playing AE, grape1, me and my bro were loving the new variety. There is still alot of fun stuff. But CE Bison/Guile pretty much ruined the game. Once we got to experiment and find out all the bullshit, we realized how broken the game is. ST solely would be a welcome change compared to this game. CE Bison is just plain stupid.

Agreed.

[Shirts]

Yep. Just hating on AE because it makes winning harder. I agree that CE Bison is a scrubs dream but so is Chun in 3s, Blanka in CvS2 etc. It's good to have a character that separates the men from the boys.

Oops. You're probably losing a lot to him eh?

AE is the best old school game we have. If anything is too much bs, after Evo2k6 we can adjust the rules for future events. Now there are more choices and more match ups to know. Some matches will be super-less. Only straight play without a bunch of crutches. I LOVE it!

Don't hate. We can always play ST on the side and Evo could've been really weak and removed old school play altogether!!!

I have little problems against CE Bison overall. I played tons of games against Schafer and I threw his CE Bison like a rag doll.

[stream3]

you can bet that tokido is practicing CE Bison like crazy :D

[Graham]

you can bet that tokido is practicing CE Bison like crazy :D

thats what im hoping taquito(for you albert if you read this), that most japanese do.

[NKI]

And no, I never figured out what is going on with that st.RH/block at the same time. I'm thinking that perhaps it's because of the delay between input and execution. I know that normal moves take something like 3 frames to come out after you hit the button. It's possible that you hit the button, so the game has decided "the move is going to come out; make the sound", but then you block a move before your move comes out. The result is that you hear the sound of your normal and still block.I tested this out today, and the above is correct. If you do a normal move within two frames before impact, you will hear your normal move and block at the same time.

Doesn't appear to be possible with special moves, though.

CE Bison is just plain stupid.Could not agree more. :tdown:

By the way, here is a repost of the vids I linked to earlier, from The Grand Master Challenge.

Original link: http://streetfighter.jugem.jp/?cid=7
Mirror: http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/UFO.zip

On the original page, you can only download one video at a time, and that takes a while, so I put them all in one zip file. Enjoy!

P.S.: UFO.2005.07.31 - x731_k4.Komoda.Blanka.vs.Mayakon.wmv
Mayakon's T.Hawk is on another level...:confused:!!!

P.P.S.: UFO.2005.08.21 - x0821_k15.Tsuujii.vs.Ani-Ken.wmv
Tsuujii is too beastly...:confused:!!!

[Hermy]

P.S.: UFO.2005.07.31 - x731_k4.Komoda.Blanka.vs.Mayakon.wmv
Mayakon's T.Hawk is on another level...:confused:!!!


Yeah, I downloaded those videos when you originally posted them. That match is one of my all time faves. The walk-in 360 rushdown is too much to handle! Plus the part where they're both standing there for a bit, then does the air dive on reaction the the blanka slide. Too sick.

Also, I never thanked Gen-An for the help with HF Gief grabs. You were right about the distance thing, and it's really hard for me to consistently get the bite. Much more worthwhile/guaranteed to just 360.

[stream3]

players who can win with t-hawk.... much respect

[SweetJohnnyV]

For me, my toughest matches with Dhalsim are against a good Vega(Claw). His pokes have better range than most characters which means you can't abuse his limbs like you do against most people. Also, Dhalsim moves in slow motion compared to Vega, which means you have a much harder time keeping him away from you than most characters. The flying antics are also hard to combat. Sure, you can try to stop his dives with a well timed st lp, or if you see it coming early enough a jump hk, but it's hard to time those 100%, and if he's crossing you up with dives on wakeup, there's not much you can do except try to teleport out.

But, I'm just a scrub, so maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone(Alex?) have any good tips on fighting claw with sim?


...still wondering if anyone has any tips on this matchup? :wonder:

[ToXY]

Nice matches NKI, just a couple questions.
#1 Why did some matches have speed 1, some had speed 2 and some had 3?
#2 Why do Japanese players mostly use T.Hawk over Zangief even though i hear Zangief is better, is it because they like to win with a really low tier, or is it because at really high level and good execution T.Hawk is more effective than Zangief?

[margalis]

Nice vids.

IMO T. Hawk takes more execution than Gief because T. Hawks normals are very situational. There isn't any T.Hawk normal you can use as a panic button, it takes a mix of low short, low strong, low fierce, stand jab, stand roundhouse, etc. (I have to say in those vids I didn't see low strong very much and low roundhouse much more than I would have thought.)

With Hawk it really feels like you are trying to just keep up until you can unleash an SPD, whereas Zan can win without his SPD. With Zan you can always get a low roundhouse into crossup and go from there, and in general Zan's low roundhouse will trade with or beat a lot of stuff.

I think Hawk is a lot of fun to play, but you have to work really hard. It's very taxing.

Blanka and Ken didn't really impress me very much. I'm not sure if that's the same N. Ken I've seen cleaning house in other vids.

[stream3]

ken = aniken, blanka = komodo

[Graham]

...still wondering if anyone has any tips on this matchup? :wonder:

spear lock him whenever you get the chance, jumping rh if he goes off wall or standing jab. If he jumps at you block or slide under him then throw, use spears or jump back fierce as anti air. dont do much on the ground just wait for him to attack or spear him.

[SweetJohnnyV]

spear lock him whenever you get the chance, jumping rh if he goes off wall or standing jab. If he jumps at you block or slide under him then throw, use spears or jump back fierce as anti air. dont do much on the ground just wait for him to attack or spear him.

Graham,

Thanks for the tips!

A lot of that stuff I do, but the tip about not doing much on the ground is something I should probably work on. I'm so used to being able to abuse most of the cast with his pokes, or fake a poke and then punish with a poke.

But that brings up another question, what should I be doing on the ground? Just sitting and waiting for him to make a move? Fake a lot of lp's like I'm going to do something? Do some slides? Or get off the ground and try to rush him down with drills? I'm guessing probably a mix of the above depending on distance and whether he seems more offensive or defensive.

Also, when you say "spear lock him" are you just talking about fast repeated spears? Or some spears mixed with throws, low forward, etc?

I appreciate your wisdom :smile:


NKI,
Nice vids! A couple of those matches are just plain ill :rock:

On another note, those videos reminded me of something I've been wondering for a while. It seems like more people play Ken and N. Sagat in Japan than they do here. Is that just my perception or is that really the case? If that is the case, does anyone have any idea why?

[Gen-An]

Well, since O.Sagat isn't as apparently derided in the US as he is in Japan, there's no point in picking N.Sagat over him. As for N.Ken, I have no idea about that one, though he is fun to play, especially once you start the Knee Grab shenanigans.

[pimp2303]

Here are some new daigo vids from nohoho on dustloop
http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/monmon999/gachiasadakai1.html

[NKI]

#1 Why did some matches have speed 1, some had speed 2 and some had 3?Some tournaments in Japan allow the players to choose the speeds. Most of the time though it's like American tournaments where the speed is decided by the tournament organizer.

#2 Why do Japanese players mostly use T.Hawk over Zangief even though i hear Zangief is better, is it because they like to win with a really low tier, or is it because at really high level and good execution T.Hawk is more effective than Zangief?Although it didn't show in this particular batch of vids, there are actually quite a few Gief players. I've only seen maybe three real Hawk players total in all of Japan (Toutanki, Mayakon, and a guy from More whose name I forgot). By the way, I think Gief is better than Hawk over all. Gief has MUCH better normals, as margalis pointed out.

Blanka and Ken didn't really impress me very much. I'm not sure if that's the same N. Ken I've seen cleaning house in other vids.Yeah, Blanka vs. Hawk is an exceptionally boring match. I know it doesn't show in those vids, but that Blanka is really good...probably the best Blanka there is. (But no matter how good the player is, it's still Blanka...)

You might be thinking of M-tsun (or Mattsun, or whatever he goes by these days), who plays purple N.Ken. He plays HELLA risky, always going for the DP, doesn't care if he's one hit away from being dizzied, still up in your grill.

ken = aniken, blanka = komodoSlight correction: Komoda Blanka

On another note, those videos reminded me of something I've been wondering for a while. It seems like more people play Ken and N. Sagat in Japan than they do here. Is that just my perception or is that really the case? If that is the case, does anyone have any idea why?That really is the case. In my entire year there, I can only remember seeing one O.Ken, and I'm not 100% the guy was Japanese. I never saw a Japanese person play O.Sagat. I know they don't like O.Sagat 'cause he's too boring/too good. I think the reason they don't use O.Ken is simply because N.Ken is just better.

Here are some new daigo vids from nohoho on dustloop
http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/monmon999/gachiasadakai1.htmlThanks for the heads-up! :tup:

[stream3]

wow daigo did pretty well against aniken

[Graham]

Graham,

Thanks for the tips!

A lot of that stuff I do, but the tip about not doing much on the ground is something I should probably work on. I'm so used to being able to abuse most of the cast with his pokes, or fake a poke and then punish with a poke.

But that brings up another question, what should I be doing on the ground? Just sitting and waiting for him to make a move? Fake a lot of lp's like I'm going to do something? Do some slides? Or get off the ground and try to rush him down with drills? I'm guessing probably a mix of the above depending on distance and whether he seems more offensive or defensive.

Also, when you say "spear lock him" are you just talking about fast repeated spears? Or some spears mixed with throws, low forward, etc?

I appreciate your wisdom :smile:


mix of both, if he just sits there then approach on the ground and either do a forward slide, a standing or low strong, or a forward or short spear if you must attack. Try not to be too offensive, this is in case you're losing.

[Footsy Bebop]

NKI: Do you know if "Pony Zangief" is in the Insanity DVD? I heard he's supposed to be the best Zangief in Japan, better than Kuni even. I'd love to see how a great Zangief player approaches some of the match ups.

[stream3]

yoga book hyper looks like the greatest guide ever. Just curious, how many pages does it have?

[Graham]

yoga book hyper looks like the greatest guide ever. Just curious, how many pages does it have?

Its not the greatest guide, its maybe the greatest move list. But its very very informative =)

[Kyokuji]

Also, when you say "spear lock him" are you just talking about fast repeated spears? Or some spears mixed with throws, low forward, etc

In the corner I like to do:
(Close) c. MK > Low RH Drill > (Close) c. MK, (Close) c. MP (Far) c. MP > Low Spear > c. MK > Low RH Drill > Repeat.
You have to change it up depending on how your opponent reacts though, and this tends not to work very well on anyone with a DP or Honda for that matter since he'll just throw you to death. The spears are mostly there to stuff any attempts to jump out. If you're expecting a DP, it might be wise to use c. MK > Yoga Flame/Fire instead of a drill for a repetition, then move back in with a slide or a drill.

But like Graham said, this is usually something you resort to when you're losing as it's very high risk. Although I do like to use it on people like Bison since he has a hell of a time getting out.

[ToXY]

Hey Graham, by any chance do you have any other match vids of you apart from the EVO West ones? if not does anyone know a good Boxer player that i can DL some vids of, all the time i download ST vids there is never much Balrog in it, and id like to watch some matches so i get an idea how to handle each matchup.

[margalis]

Why would anyone use O. Ken?

The two main reasons people give are that he walks faster and that he has a faster jab DP, both of which are false.

[ToXY]

I'm pretty sure his jab dp has more invinsibility, and also his jab fireball is really slow and his fierce one is really fast so it helps him fireball trap better, havnt tested it but thats what i heard anyway.

[Graham]

Hey Graham, by any chance do you have any other match vids of you apart from the EVO West ones? if not does anyone know a good Boxer player that i can DL some vids of, all the time i download ST vids there is never much Balrog in it, and id like to watch some matches so i get an idea how to handle each matchup.

insanity dvd has some decent balrog players on it. I think one even wins the tournament. They arent bad and use non turnaround punch style for some matches so youll see some fast paced action, unfortunately all my vids from evo west were vs sim so i had to use slow paced balrog (turnaround punch long charge).

There are basically 4 styles of balrog play.

Fast paced = no tap or very limited usage of it (level 1 tap), so you can do dashing shorts and grabs alot, this style is good vs guile, blanka, and other chars without fireballs.

Fast paced tap = level 2-4 max taps mixed with occasional dash shorts and lots of consecutive tap+low dashes usually vs shotos.

Mixed = sometimes charging tap up to level 3-4 and sometimes playing without tap, this is usually for oddball chars like vs st chun.

Slow paced tap = charging sometimes up to level 5-7 tap along with alot of blocking and carefully selected low dashes, this generally happens vs sim

I should be getting paid to reveal this stuff =)

BTW there is also a defensive style with rog which is good vs gief, and honda. I dont consider it one of his 4 'stances' though.

[ToXY]

insanity dvd has some decent balrog players on it. I think one even wins the tournament. They arent bad and use non turnaround punch style for some matches so youll see some fast paced action(turnaround punch long charge).

Awesome, i ordered that dvd/book a couple weeks ago, still waiting for it to arrive,
so which characters does the Rog use no tap against?

[Khiempossible]

Hey Graham, by any chance do you have any other match vids of you apart from the EVO West ones? if not does anyone know a good Boxer player that i can DL some vids of, all the time i download ST vids there is never much Balrog in it, and id like to watch some matches so i get an idea how to handle each matchup.

It's not specifically what you're looking for, but I will always remember this match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnG-OBPYa2I

[Graham]

It's not specifically what you're looking for, but I will always remember this match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnG-OBPYa2I

Yeah daigo does some textbook rog vs sagat here. Another char you dont use the tap on, and the reason you dont need to is because his standing fierce hits sagat crouching, whereas vs ryu it doesnt, so tap helps alot vs ryu.

[ToXY]

I've seen that vid, but thanks alot anyway!, btw Graham does rogs s.fierce hit any other crouching characters? also is s.mp ever a better option to use than c.hp for anti air? oh and also i remember you told me befor to mix in some punch rush punches against ryu, what advantage does this have over the low one? thanks :)

[Maj]

Why would anyone use O. Ken?

The two main reasons people give are that he walks faster and that he has a faster jab DP, both of which are false.
Some people miss Hyper Fighting. Invincible uppercut is pretty good, and so is walk forward into sweep without getting stupid fancy kicks.

[Graham]

I've seen that vid, but thanks alot anyway!, btw Graham does rogs s.fierce hit any other crouching characters? also is s.mp ever a better option to use than c.hp for anti air? oh and also i remember you told me befor to mix in some punch rush punches against ryu, what advantage does this have over the low one? thanks :)

Standing fierce hits dj (somewhat closer than other chars to hit low), dhalsim, sagat, honda, zangief, thawk, fei long, balrog, vega. Hits all of them crouching.

Using standing midpunch is good for distance jumpers instead of crouching fierce which needs them to be closer. I've used it vs enemies who jumped backwards in the corner when im kinda far away and not charged. Mainly its nice when im not charged or if im holding tap and need some range to hit a far jumper.

The straight running punches not only have instant hit properties like older balrogs, but have a very big hitbox. lets sya you're fighting ryu and he forces you to block a fireball close, if he attempts another fireball you can do a straight running punch and trade hits with him doing more damage. its just good for some situations like that.

The mentality i use nowadays when i play rog is im not about getting clean hits, but killing my opponent. If that means 10 or so trade hits in one round thats fine, my life bar is expendable as long as i win the round. Dont feel like trading hits is a bad thing, its always a good thing with rog since he hits so hard.

[NKI]

NKI: Do you know if "Pony Zangief" is in the Insanity DVD? I heard he's supposed to be the best Zangief in Japan, better than Kuni even. I'd love to see how a great Zangief player approaches some of the match ups.He's not featured in The Insanity DVD, but you can see Gunze (another very good Gief). Pony Gief was in one of the X-MANIA DVD's...either 4 or 5...or maybe both...

yoga book hyper looks like the greatest guide ever. Just curious, how many pages does it have?I can't remember exactly, but it's a fair number of pages. Maybe around 200 or so...?

Its not the greatest guide, its maybe the greatest move list. But its very very informative =)I'm curious what more you could possibly ask for from a guide?

[Graham]

I'm curious what more you could possibly ask for from a guide?

Let me bring you one of my alpha 2 guides to look at at evo finals then you'll know what a guide should have in it that yoga book is lacking.

[ToXY]

Thanks for the help once again Graham:tup:

[NKI]

Graham - OK, sounds good. (But you know The Yoga Book Hyper also has a strategy section too, right? It's not just frame data and hit boxes.)

[Gen-An]

The strategy section probably gets overlooked since you HAVE to know Japanese to get any useful information from it, while the frame data for the most part is intuitive.

[margalis]

To follow up on a few things, I'm surprised that O. Boxer isn't more popular. The straight rush punch comes out faster and from farther away than the low rush. It's a lot better at stuffing/trading fireballs. But O. Boxer stand rush punch also hits duckers where N. Boxer doesn't. I also remember that O. Boxer stand fierce is better somehow (hits all duckers? Help NKI?) but I don't remember exactly how. O. Boxer is one of the few O. characters that has a real legit advantage over N. at least in some areas.

Also on Zangief vs. Hawk - (warning - name dropping!) at an old ECC in casual play my Zangief destroyed Jason Nelson (I think) as Ryu and Wes something (midwestern dude - llpftr or something like that here) as Guile landing maybe one SPD in each match. Because just the threat of an SPD changes the way people play. They start to jump around or throw out too many low forwards and leave themselves open to normals, which Zangief can take good advantage of. Against Guile in particular low roundhouse will trade/beat low forward and from there you walk up and get into a situation where they have to try a reversal or get stuck in a tick attempt, and if you end up hitting with another low roundhouse you get a crossup attempt.

It's much harder for Hawk to take advantage of that sort of thing. His low roundhouse is pretty sucky overall, both in range and priority and the fact that you can't do much after it because it's so slow with the double hitting. Hitting with a low rh gets you a knockdown but nothing else. Hawk doesn't have an air attack as good as splash or knees, or an anti-fireball air attack as good as Zan's jumping fierce.

Zan can also combo pretty effectively, whereas good T. Hawk combos require point-blank range.

It's rare to see Hawk win without landing an SPD, because against most chars his normals allow him to break even at best, and more likely fall behind. T. Hawk is all about getting that opening you need to land an SPD and go from there. A lot of the time that means landing a DP (hard to do), getting a jump-in jab (also hard), doing his dive into the ground as a sneaky way to get in, etc.

The difference between getting every SPD you can and not is usually the difference in the match. For example against Boxer you can defend against rushes pretty well using low strong (and maybe low jab) but if you can tack an SPD on afterwards you are in 100x better shape.

[Khiempossible]

To follow up on a few things, I'm surprised that O. Boxer isn't more popular. The straight rush punch comes out faster and from farther away than the low rush. It's a lot better at stuffing/trading fireballs. But O. Boxer stand rush punch also hits duckers where N. Boxer doesn't. I also remember that O. Boxer stand fierce is better somehow (hits all duckers? Help NKI?) but I don't remember exactly how. O. Boxer is one of the few O. characters that has a real legit advantage over N. at least in some areas.

This maybe true. However, the advantages of having the best super in the game far outweigh those of o.boxer. Now if o.boxer had invincible TAP instead of that stupid head butt of his, you might find a legitimate excuse to play o.boxer.

[Graham]

This maybe true. However, the advantages of having the best super in the game far outweigh those of o.boxer. Now if o.boxer had invincible TAP instead of that stupid head butt of his, you might find a legitimate excuse to play o.boxer.

Couldnt have said it better myself. Standing fierce for o.boxer is identical to st balrog, BUT did you know that hyper balrogs standing fierce hits a few more characters crouching than st balrog? at least its how i remember it, ill go test that, im almost positive it hits bison ducking and maybe blanka. As for o.boxer having advantages over n, to be honest i dont think that straight running punch is much of an advantage, mainly due to his lack of followup.

I can't read the strategy section because its in japanese, but from the looks of it, its not very in depth. Not their fault their book had a size limit, but that is why I don't call it the 'greatest guide ever' because technically speaking its lacking in that department.

As for gief over thawk, he is immensely better. For some retarded reason capcom decided to make Thawk have no normal moves that have any purpose. He has like 30 or whatever number useless attacks. He has less range than gief, dont ask me why they did that. Gief has been around for 5 versions and they've been fine tuning his ground moves and specials all this time. He is crafted to beat all the characters.

(disclaimer: alot of thinking, if you're a meathead dont read)
I think Thawk players in japan play him for novelty, players over there tend to do this. Although I dont see the purpose, you cant win a tournament using silly goofiness. But I think they arent as hardcore about winning as about being 'different'. Which is one of the things i criticize about their gameplay, they will purposely use stupid moves/techniques to be 'different' where it clearly gives them a disadvantage. Take for example this balrog player i watched, me and sirlin call him the fancy final punch player. Because every round he attempts to charge up a final tap and his entire goal each game is to sock someone with this, even if it means he might lose the round. Before you say 'he was prolly just being silly that day' these actions are repeated daily or frequently in vids ive watched. Vids of other players that is and their "style". I'm sure if i took a course on japanese culture in any college, id understand the ideology behind being different I guess in the US since we all physically look different and alot of us act different, its not as necessary? But for them they must express their differences by action and appearance changes. Ahh whatever gonna go back to watching spike tv and stop thinking.

[margalis]

I don't think what you are talking about is any different than it is in the US.

Why did Valle use team Shotokan in MVC2 and why does Choi use teak Shotokan + Sagat in CVS2? Everyone has their quirks.

People play for different reasons. Some people choose characters and styles that appeal to them. For some people certain characters and styles may simply work better for them, even if those are not the best characters and styles overall. Why did Cole play Dhalsim in A2? Maybe A2 Dhalsim is kind of sucky but Cole does better with Dhalsim than with other guys. Or maybe Cole just likes Dhalsim.

Maybe some guys, instead of being the 5th best Ryu player, choose to be the best T. Hawk player.

Different areas develop different styles. The EC is known as a runaway/turtle style to a lot of people. In Japan I did see a lot of people throwing out DPs way too often, to the point where the best strategy was simply to do nothing, let them whiff a DP, then go from there. But then again people in Japan were also doing combos that you rarely see in the US, even among top players.

If Sirlin is going to call someone the Final TAP guy, can we call him the low strong guy? Is Justin Wong whiffing Chun's fierce in 3S 20 times in a row really an optimal strategy?

What about someone like Bucktooth, who uses Iori and Morrigan in CVS2? Is he a non-optimal player, or is it everyone else that is non-optimal? If Iori and Morrigan were as popular as Sagat and Blanka would they be as dominant?

Overall I think it's a bit silly to get on Japan for their playstyle given that the average skill level in ST is an order of maginitude higher...while you are wondering why some dude tries for a final TAP every time they are over there wondering why they've never seen a US player combo shorts into super.

[Graham]

I don't think what you are talking about is any different than it is in the US.

Why did Valle use team Shotokan in MVC2 and why does Choi use teak Shotokan + Sagat in CVS2? Everyone has their quirks.

People play for different reasons. Some people choose characters and styles that appeal to them. For some people certain characters and styles may simply work better for them, even if those are not the best characters and styles overall. Why did Cole play Dhalsim in A2? Maybe A2 Dhalsim is kind of sucky but Cole does better with Dhalsim than with other guys. Or maybe Cole just likes Dhalsim.

Maybe some guys, instead of being the 5th best Ryu player, choose to be the best T. Hawk player.

Different areas develop different styles. The EC is known as a runaway/turtle style to a lot of people. In Japan I did see a lot of people throwing out DPs way too often, to the point where the best strategy was simply to do nothing, let them whiff a DP, then go from there. But then again people in Japan were also doing combos that you rarely see in the US, even among top players.

If Sirlin is going to call someone the Final TAP guy, can we call him the low strong guy? Is Justin Wong whiffing Chun's fierce in 3S 20 times in a row really an optimal strategy?

What about someone like Bucktooth, who uses Iori and Morrigan in CVS2? Is he a non-optimal player, or is it everyone else that is non-optimal? If Iori and Morrigan were as popular as Sagat and Blanka would they be as dominant?

Overall I think it's a bit silly to get on Japan for their playstyle given that the average skill level in ST is an order of maginitude higher...while you are wondering why some dude tries for a final TAP every time they are over there wondering why they've never seen a US player combo shorts into super.

you misunderstand my post completely. there is a difference between variety and picking the worst character in the game or doing moves for no other reason than to be different. im not ragging on the japanese, im saying its a very strange behavior. and no, all those examples of american players are not what im talking about.

As for sirlin doing low strong, thats nothing different than low fierce with sagat in cvs2 (guess who popularized that one, me). thats called abusing what works.

the whiffed dps in japan, thats a style of play, its a necessary tactic to win vs some characters. Its also a very aggressive but effective style, i use it myself when i play ken vs my brother or even ryu. the trick is to attempt to knock them down so you can do a crossup guessing game.

Non optimal is very normal, but thawk as i said before is like the worst character. For them to pick him is something besides character choice for style. Buktooth is prolly the best player in the US at cvs2. His character choice became a powerful team because of him, people didnt know how much potential they had. I've played level 4 dan for fun in casuals on cvs2 at various arcades and gone on winning streaks but you dont find me at cvs2 tourneys playing level 4 dan. Understand my difference in examples? you see top notch players using thawk but almost never winning with him no matter how much they try.

As for the insult toward americans about short short into super. Its great their scrubs can do combos, too bad thats all they can do otherwise they wouldnt be scrubs. If you consider that a magnitude higher then maybe you should be playing one of the latest games that rely 90% on combo and 10% on skill.

[ahlee]

If Sirlin is going to call someone the Final TAP guy, can we call him the low strong guy? Is Justin Wong whiffing Chun's fierce in 3S 20 times in a row really an optimal strategy?
While your point about players having their own style and adopting characters that they're comfortable with is a good one, and the Japanese have shown that it can be more viable with weaker perceived characters than most people expect, the above example isn't a fair comparison. The difference is in motivation. Attempting to end every round with a final tap is a showboat gimmick, while repeatedly using low strong is done with strategic intent.

[FMJaguar]

Non optimal is very normal, but thawk as i said before is like the worst character. For them to pick him is something besides character choice for style. Buktooth is prolly the best player in the US at cvs2. His character choice became a powerful team because of him, people didnt know how much potential they had. I've played level 4 dan for fun in casuals on cvs2 at various arcades and gone on winning streaks but you dont find me at cvs2 tourneys playing level 4 dan. Understand my difference in examples? you see top notch players using thawk but almost never winning with him no matter how much they try.

There are a lot of people that purposely have non-winning tactics for various reasons, defense mechanisms, overcompensation, they don't care, makes them feel better, lots of reasons. But in the US, there's no comp and arcades, handed to them, no internet fame, so they usually don't develop the base skills to be known for their trick, much less want to travel to big tournies and show it off.

[margalis]

Non optimal is very normal, but thawk as i said before is like the worst character. For them to pick him is something besides character choice for style. Buktooth is prolly the best player in the US at cvs2. His character choice became a powerful team because of him, people didnt know how much potential they had. I've played level 4 dan for fun in casuals on cvs2 at various arcades and gone on winning streaks but you dont find me at cvs2 tourneys playing level 4 dan. Understand my difference in examples? you see top notch players using thawk but almost never winning with him no matter how much they try.


So how is this different from NKI playing Chun, who was considered a low-tier character for a long time. Or Jumpsuit playing Fei? Or Bob Painter playing Honda? Or James Chen playing Cammy? Or Valle playing team Shoto in MVC2? Isn't Cammy usually considered one of the worst characters in ST? And team shoto is a sucky team in MVC2.

I just don't see how this is a Japan thing. Sure, some players choose weak characters to be different. Some players try to hit certain combos or moves to show off. Usually in the open rounds of a tourney you see a lot more character variety, with what are considered really bad characters being chosen. Dhalsim in A2? He sucks. Anyone who played Dhalsim in A2 did so because they love Dhalsim, not because they wanted to win.

As far as playstyle goes, there are plenty of MVC2 players who play characters/teams to hit flashy combos and show off - for example basically anyone playing Iron Man.

I get what you are saying, but I don't see how that is a Japan thing. People have different reasons for playing they way they do and choosing characters.


Attempting to end every round with a final tap is a showboat gimmick, while repeatedly using low strong is done with strategic intent.


To some degree that is true, but it's not like in Japan every Boxer player is trying to win every round with a final TAP.

Why did Sirlin play Zangief in the B2 finals? In that same tourney Choi played Guy and Gen IIRC. (Not the whole time) Those are good strategic decisions and not showing off and having a bit of fun?

[Dasrik]

Reasons to play O.Ken over new Ken, in order of importance:

* NO FUNKY KICKS
* slugball
* crossup forward
* red looks good on Ken
* invincible DP

The fact that something as negligible as a different crossup move is more important than the DP should tell you something.

[Zaelar]

There are legitimate reasons for selecting a non-top tier character, but doing it for the sake of being different isn't one of them.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Reasons to play O.Ken over new Ken, in order of importance:

* NO FUNKY KICKS
* slugball
* crossup forward
* red looks good on Ken
* invincible DP

The fact that something as negligible as a different crossup move is more important than the DP should tell you something.

LOL! Yeah, red does look good on Ken :tup:

I think I should've stated my question more carefully. When I said:


It seems like more people play Ken and N. Sagat in Japan than they do here. Is that just my perception or is that really the case?

I meant that they play Ken at all. New or old. I just don't recall seeing too many tourney matches in the US with anyone using Ken.

[stream3]

There are legitimate reasons for selecting a non-top tier character, but doing it for the sake of being different isn't one of them.

so if this is not a legit reason, what is? choosing a character because you like him? Who's to say what's legit and what's not?

Being critical of player's character choices is a tangent we need to get off. Criticize the gameplay, not the fact that they chose X character to begin with.

Just be glad that some people chose low- mid tier and we don't see a top tier fest of Dhalsim, boxer, claw, o.sagat all the time.

[SweetJohnnyV]

mix of both, if he just sits there then approach on the ground and either do a forward slide, a standing or low strong, or a forward or short spear if you must attack. Try not to be too offensive, this is in case you're losing.

That's pretty much what I figured. Thanks Graham!

[SweetJohnnyV]

In the corner I like to do:
(Close) c. MK > Low RH Drill > (Close) c. MK, (Close) c. MP (Far) c. MP > Low Spear > c. MK > Low RH Drill > Repeat.
You have to change it up depending on how your opponent reacts though, and this tends not to work very well on anyone with a DP or Honda for that matter since he'll just throw you to death. The spears are mostly there to stuff any attempts to jump out. If you're expecting a DP, it might be wise to use c. MK > Yoga Flame/Fire instead of a drill for a repetition, then move back in with a slide or a drill.

But like Graham said, this is usually something you resort to when you're losing as it's very high risk. Although I do like to use it on people like Bison since he has a hell of a time getting out.

Nice stuff :tup: Thanks Kyokuji!

[SweetJohnnyV]

so if this is not a legit reason, what is? choosing a character because you like him? Who's to say what's legit and what's not?

I'd assume a "legit" reason for not picking a top tier character would be to pick a counter character for a single match.


Being critical of player's character choices is a tangent we need to get off. Criticize the gameplay, not the fact that they chose X character to begin with.

Just be glad that some people chose low- mid tier and we don't see a top tier fest of Dhalsim, boxer, claw, o.sagat all the time.

FWIW, when I first asked about the Japanese playing O. Sagat and any version of Ken more than us yanks, it wasn't to bag on their choice of characters. Quite the contrary. I was more curious if they had some tricks up their sleeves that we've largely overlooked.

I recently began wondering about this after someone posted a transcript of an interview with one of the Japanese players(I think Daigo) in some thread(this one?) Anyway, IIRC in the interview the guy said that he was surprised that nobody here was playing N. Sagat, and that he was lucky that we weren't or he might not have faired as well. Or something like that...I'm too lazy to look it up right now :wgrin: At any rate, the vids that NKI posted with Ani-Ken reminded me about this.

Especially with EVO coming up, I'm curious if either of these characters have some unique advantages that we're not familiar with. It'd be a shame if a bunch of people got beat down at EVO, just cause they don't know the matchup.

Just a thought...

[Hermy]

In the same way that you take pride in popularizing tactics (like spamming Sagat's low fierce) and becoming known for innovating, players pick up random low-tier characters and get good with them because they enjoy doing something different at the cost of playing at maximum efficiency. Or maybe they overdo some tactic but still seem to come out ahead (Aniken and that spammed DP). You could argue that it's not "playing to win" in the purest sense, but including originality while trying to be the best isn't a terrible way to go.

[moop]

uh I actually popularized sagat Low Fierce. And Blanka electricity. And holding down/back for 50% of the match. *


* thanks, give me props.

[Zaelar]

so if this is not a legit reason, what is?

You pick who you think you have the best chance to win with. Anything less wouldn't be doing your best. The only time you don't do this is when you are either trying something new as a learning experience, or if you are just messing around(ie not competitive play). That doesn't mean always picking top tier. Maybe you think a character labled as mid tier is actually top tier, or maybe you just understand and can use a mid tier character better than the top tier characters.

You can replace character with move, strategy, tactic, or whatever else you want and it should still apply.

[Graham]

So how is this different from NKI playing Chun, who was considered a low-tier character for a long time. Or Jumpsuit playing Fei? Or Bob Painter playing Honda? Or James Chen playing Cammy? Or Valle playing team Shoto in MVC2? Isn't Cammy usually considered one of the worst characters in ST? And team shoto is a sucky team in MVC2.


First off, you're wrong about those characters. They might not be the best but they are all very powerful. Team shoto i have no idea, im guessing he prolly picked it since he knew he would lose the tournament anyway and to be honest i dont see him entering mvc2 often so i doubt he is a serious player of that game.

What i am talking about too that you failed to respond to was the way they use specific techniques for the sake of doing it. Not the dp style of aniken, i play the same way with my ken and yes that is a legitimate strategy, if you know anything about ken you'd know his highpoint is once you knick someone with a jab dp you get a free jumpin which can lead to immense damage and constant mixups. I mean when they do stupid stuff like repeated upward yogas and teleporting with dhalsim for example, which ive seen outta players. Who knows their reasoning but thats obviously the WRONG way to play dhalsim. There are many other examples i could bring up but thats a pretty clear cut example.

This behavior would be the equivalent of me going into a cvs2 tournament and attempting to taunt every 15 seconds without care if i got punished. Is it possible to still defeat your opponent? yes it is, its much less likely. I'm not saying this is a japanese only behavior, im saying that i see it much more frequently there.

[RWD]

I mean when they do stupid stuff like repeated upward yogas and teleporting with dhalsim for example, which ive seen outta players. Who knows their reasoning but thats obviously the WRONG way to play dhalsim.
I'm not getting into this debate but I figured I would answer this.

The repeated upward yoga flames is for fast meter building, I guess Sim's super is worth having so players will take the risk of damage to have access to it.

So yeah, not a wrong way to play Dhalsim at all, just a different way.

Not sure what you mean by the teleporting as i've only ever seen Jap's use it as a reversal to get out of corners. Do you have any matches on your pc where it is used randomly? If so could you upload them? I'm kinda interested to see it.

[margalis]

What i am talking about too that you failed to respond to was the way they use specific techniques for the sake of doing it. Not the dp style of aniken, i play the same way with my ken and yes that is a legitimate strategy, if you know anything about ken you'd know his highpoint is once you knick someone with a jab dp you get a free jumpin which can lead to immense damage and constant mixups.


I like it how the Japan "expert" here is not the person who has played in Japan, but the person who has seen some random videos, doesn't know any Japanese players and has no idea what the overall skill level in Japan is like.

First of all, don't be condescending with your Ken DP crap. I am not talking about some vids I saw, am I am talking about PLAYING IN JAPAN. As Ryu. When I played I noticed people using jab DPs a lot more than made sense. Yes, I know that the DP is a good move. That said, doing a DP standing 3 inches away when all I'm doing is holding down/back? Not so good. Doing it five times in a row when I just stood there the first four times and low roundhouses back? Not so good.

I'm telling you that when I was IN JAPAN PLAYING JAPANESE PLAYERS a few of them used DPs way too often. And you are telling me that's not true because DP is a good move and you saw one video with Ken in it?


I mean when they do stupid stuff like repeated upward yogas and teleporting with dhalsim for example, which ive seen outta players. Who knows their reasoning but thats obviously the WRONG way to play dhalsim. There are many other examples i could bring up but thats a pretty clear cut example.


Again, it's not like that happens all the time. Yes, some people do stupid things. It's not like it's an epidemic though. You make it sound like you go into an arcade and everyone is doing constant final TAPs and Yoga teleports. The reality is you saw a couple vids where that happened.

[Graham]

Again, it's not like that happens all the time. Yes, some people do stupid things. It's not like it's an epidemic though. You make it sound like you go into an arcade and everyone is doing constant final TAPs and Yoga teleports. The reality is you saw a couple vids where that happened.

Yup you're right I saw EVERY POSSIBLE DOWNLOADABLE VID, including insanity dvd and have watched various dvds that friends have that they made IN JAPAN of actual play. I guess having every bit of st footage i could possibly download in the last 7 months is a 'couple vids'. And in these TOURNAMENT matchplay vids, i saw stupid shit happening. Maybe its a normal practice to have 10% of the players play silly in tournament eh? But since i know this ill share it, their tournaments are for 'fun', no prize money, the only reward being glory. I guess if nothing but reputation was on the line in this country, maybe we would have some people decide to play stupid or pick the weakest characters on a regular basis. But I just dont understand how these people make it to the 'grand finals' of xmania using their gimmicks of stupidity.

Hmm guess you dont get it about ken. I said thats how i play too, yes i get swept 4-5 times maybe more by my brother or whoever i play. Thats how ken, and even ryu sometimes is played. You do realize if ryu gets one crossup he wins the entire round so 4 sweeps is irrelevant. Same with ken, one dp knockdown can end the round vs alot of chars if you are good at mixup when getting in. Risk vs Reward. Sure it might seem stupid to you but it has a purpose. Maybe they were thinking you were actually going to play and not sit there? In my opinion japanese players play very different than us, more aggressive, with the occasional turtler. But if you know sf2 history you'll know that they used to hang signs in their arcades back in the day that said 'no turtling.'

As for the Yoga upward flame which i described, you're right its the fastest way to charge meter, but not when the enemy is standing right in front of you. As for the teleport, same thing. Sims super is decent, but its not nearly worth wasting your own life to obtain especially considering you can force them to block your attacks almost at any time which gives you meter.

As for being a japan expert, i never claimed to be, i only know as much as i can learn online and from talking to many friends (expert players in the US) who've gone over there and played against them extensively. But even watching 200-300 hours of footage including recent footage from this year makes me completely oblivious to their skill level right?

[stream3]

You pick who you think you have the best chance to win with. Anything less wouldn't be doing your best. The only time you don't do this is when you are either trying something new as a learning experience, or if you are just messing around(ie not competitive play). That doesn't mean always picking top tier. Maybe you think a character labled as mid tier is actually top tier, or maybe you just understand and can use a mid tier character better than the top tier characters.

You can replace character with move, strategy, tactic, or whatever else you want and it should still apply.

seems like you come from the "counter character school of thought" :)

I think players like to challenge themselves and not resort to "resort to whatever it takes, even counter-charactering to win"

If a player has only played Q, in his mind, he has the best chance to win with Q.

[stream3]

Way too much theory fighting going on in this thread.

come on Graham, you didn't even know why japs would block the safe jump-in (not reversible if done right). This is a fundamental strategy in ST. And now you have the japs all figured out from watching all their vids? I'm not saying you don't but let your skills do the talking (1st place evo west). How many other top players come into a thread and brag and their skills in a serious manner (cole is tight and gets a pass). I never see valle or choi or even jwong really spend time in a prolonged thread. Even your brother is a lot more low-key than you are from what I can see. He's not on all the time arguing with everyone.

On the other hand this is building up crazy hype for Evo :) Maybe that was your whole intention.

[margalis]

Hmm guess you dont get it about ken. I said thats how i play too, yes i get swept 4-5 times maybe more by my brother or whoever i play. Thats how ken, and even ryu sometimes is played.


Dude, you seriously need to drop the attitude that you are the only guy here who knows how to play SF at all.

What I am saying is that I was in Japan playing a Ryu player and he did DPs WAY too often. Why are you talking about Ken? And are you trying to say that I'm wrong and the guy I played in fact DIDN'T do DPs too often?

Were you there, looking over my shoulder? How exactly do you know? Are you saying that it is absolutely impossible to do too many DPs? I'm really curious how I can win a match by punishing pointless DP after pointless DP, then you can post saying that they guy played right, even though you obviously weren't there and have no idea.


You do realize if ryu gets one crossup he wins the entire round so 4 sweeps is irrelevant.


If he lands a crossup. And how are you going to knock me down with a DP when I'm holding D/B and have been for the past 20 seconds? Do you have a super-secret DP technique similar to your SPD technique that makes the DP unblockable?


Maybe they were thinking you were actually going to play and not sit there?


Why would I bother doing that when my opponent was gifting me with free damage over and over again? Your theory is that if someone DPs over and over and over again the best strategy is to hold towards on the stick? Or maybe jump at them?

This is just a bizzare conversation. I'm saying that a guy I played did too many DPs and you are lecturing me that DP is a good move (no, really - I had no idea!) and that I must be wrong, in fact he didn't do too many DPs....

Quite silly really. Again, how do you know exactly? No matter how good you are or how much you know your aren't psychic. You can analyze a match strategy better than I can when you know nothing about it at all, weren't there, and didn't see any part of it.

That's an impressive talent.

[Gen-An]

This thread feels like a.g.sf2...

[Shag]

A casual T.Hawk player chiming in. :wonder:

Its common knowledge that N-T.Hawk has shitty normals. I prefer O-T.Hawk due to some of his moves have better properties:

st.RH hits crocuhing characters (can't confirm all but positively shotos), it can hit whiffed shoto sweeps.

His splash is just as good as Zangief's.

I'm not sure if it works with both versions but O-T.Hawk cr.fw has good priority, beats Guile's cr.fw. clean.


Bah, who cares. T-hawk sucks anyway. :rolleyes:

[RWD]

O. Hawk's far standing strong also hits lower so it forces block on everyone except Chun, Cammy, Guile and Blanka.

Dunno where all this Hawk hate is coming from, everyone knows the worst character award belongs to Cammy, at least Hawk can beat any character from 1 knockdown.

[fatboy]

Let me bring you one of my alpha 2 guides to look at at evo finals then you'll know what a guide should have in it that yoga book is lacking.

You never retruned my pm about purchasing that guide... I guess I get no love on SRK from graham:sad:

[Graham]

If he lands a crossup. And how are you going to knock me down with a DP when I'm holding D/B and have been for the past 20 seconds? Do you have a super-secret DP technique similar to your SPD technique that makes the DP unblockable?



Why would I bother doing that when my opponent was gifting me with free damage over and over again? Your theory is that if someone DPs over and over and over again the best strategy is to hold towards on the stick? Or maybe jump at them?

This is just a bizzare conversation. I'm saying that a guy I played did too many DPs and you are lecturing me that DP is a good move (no, really - I had no idea!) and that I must be wrong, in fact he didn't do too many DPs....

Quite silly really. Again, how do you know exactly? No matter how good you are or how much you know your aren't psychic. You can analyze a match strategy better than I can when you know nothing about it at all, weren't there, and didn't see any part of it.

That's an impressive talent.

Well like i said before they used to have signs that said no turtling back in the day. I figure since you're sitting there, they were mocking you by doing this since you were playing 'dirty' or whatever you wanna call it in their arcades, they prolly wanted you to be more aggressive.. We play different in the US than the japanese, we dont criticize people for turtling as much. Well some do, some dont.
But its a normal part of our play here for many players, we have the mentality of 'if its in the game, its part of it'. Thats why we use o.sagat etc whereas they kinda lean away from his usage because they feel he limits character choice.

You misunderstand me if you think i think im the only one who knows street fighter. I guess its the style of my posts. Anyway im not here to insult anyone who reads this, i only am posting stuff to give insight into things ive noticed. You think i am trying to downtalk the japanese by posting this stuff? Im glad they still play this game, otherwise there would be nothing for me to look forward to.

[margalis]

Yeah, this discussion is stupid.

Anyway about O. Hawk, I've never played O. Hawk but the actual Super version of Hawk had a better stand roundhouse as mentioned, and I think his low forward had better range as well. I certainly remember being surprised by how sucky his low forward was in ST by comparison.

Tick into super is too good to pass up though. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that if you can't get in your will lose most matches, so you might as well have the best possible way to capitalize once you do get in.

Other than that I'm not sure if any of N. Hawks normals are better, they might be. Once thing that happens a lot if that people notice moves that were downgraded but not moves that were upgraded. Because they naturally rely on the moves that worked well for them in past versions.

[Zaelar]

seems like you come from the "counter character school of thought" :)

I think players like to challenge themselves and not resort to "resort to whatever it takes, even counter-charactering to win"

If a player has only played Q, in his mind, he has the best chance to win with Q.

Counter pick if you can, as in you actually know a counter character. Picking a counter character that you don't know how to play isn't picking the character that gives you the best chance to win. You also might think that you have a better chance of winning a bad matchup than a counter matchup for whatever reason, then counter picking wouldn't be a good idea.

Letting someone whiff dps and punishing would be counter picking [a gameplan].

If you aren't doing whatever it takes, you aren't "playing to win". If you aren't playing to win you aren't playing competitively.

If a player only knows Q, then counter picking isn't an option and going with Q would be the best...only plan.

[Kuroppi]

Well like i said before they used to have signs that said no turtling back in the day. I figure since you're sitting there, they were mocking you by doing this since you were playing 'dirty' or whatever you wanna call it in their arcades, they prolly wanted you to be more aggressive..

Actually, that's an urban legend as far as I know.


We play different in the US than the japanese, we dont criticize people for turtling as much. Well some do, some dont. But its a normal part of our play here for many players, we have the mentality of 'if its in the game, its part of it'. Thats why we use o.sagat etc whereas they kinda lean away from his usage because they feel he limits character choice.

You haven't faced More Vega. :) He's one of the biggest turtles I've played against anywhere. There's plenty of turtling going on in Japan but the difference is that there are many more players there than here who are also effective with an aggressive style of play (I can only think of a handful of players here who fit that description, whereas in Japan you would see a number of players like that in any arcade you walk into).

[NKI]

Bob - I'm assuming you're talking about the Claw player? (More Balrog?) That guy turtles HELLA...

Also, Muteki Guile usually turtles pretty hard too.

God I miss More...

[stream3]

snip.

Let's drop the "if they pick low-tier they aren't playing to win" discussion. You are getting into semantics which is a terrific time waster. I could say "doing whatever it takes" means grabbing someone by the balls so they can't block while you unleash final TAP. :p "Doing your best" is so ambiguous that it's not even worth discussing since everyone has their own interpretations.

next topic.

---------------------------

the "no turtling sign" is an urban legend. So is the "japanese people don't throw because they are honorable." Or "japanese people don't do anything cheap because they are honorable."

Talk about a broad generalization. Japanese people are the ones who feel comfortable holding d/b for 50% of the match (ah hem Mago, Kuroda). Even Americans don't turtle that much.

In Tekken we had video evidence of this (no backdashing, no d+LP, LK for a series of TTT vids) but that was for a specific video set.

[NKI]

I can testify from first-hand experience. The Japs are the CHEAPEST mofo's I have ever played ST against. They won't even think twice about doing you dirty.

I've watched Noguchi win entire rounds with nothing but Claw wall dives. I am not exaggerating at all. He literally did NOTHING BUT WALL DIVES...so hard to block when done ambiguously.

This is the same fellow who always slaughtered my Chun in the corner with st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing. I'm starting to have horrible flashbacks...:sad:

At Evo2003 (I think), I was playing casuals with Daigo. My Boxer vs. his Ryu. (This was before I exclusively used Chun.) He knocked me down and did meaty fireball, walk up throw (which I didn't tech), then another meaty fireball, walked up again, and I was like, "Whoa buddy, you're not throwing me again", so I stood up to reversal throw. Nigga hit me with cr.Short->cr.Short xx super. :wasted:

[margalis]

Anyone remember the CVS Honda (Tokido?) who just held D/B the entire match and RC-headbutted everything...yeah. I agree, next topic!

[NKI]

margalis - Wasn't that Mago?

[Zaelar]

post

I'm not getting into semantics. If you aren't doing everything you can to win you aren't doing your best. Punching the other guy is street fighting, not street fighter. There are (unwritten) rules about that. If you aren't playing by the rules, you aren't playing street fighter, thus you can't win at street fighter if you aren't playing it.

[Maj]

Of course i agree that top tier hate is stupid (thx s-kill for showing us the way) and low-tier tournaments are a dumb idea, but at the same time it would be awfully boring if everyone stayed strictly within top tier all the time. If A2 was all Chun/Ryu/Ken/Rose, if 3S was all Yun/Chun/Ken, if ST was all Dhalsim/Vega/Sagat/Balrog. Who wants to see that? Plus some characters just "click" with certain people and they do way better with Cammy and Zangief than they could ever do with Dhalsim. It's ok to slap some sense into someone who thinks it's cheap when Ryu throws more than two fireballs in a row, but that whole group doesn't really exist anymore within this community.

[Kuroppi]

Bob - I'm assuming you're talking about the Claw player? (More Balrog?) That guy turtles HELLA...

Also, Muteki Guile usually turtles pretty hard too.

God I miss More...

Yes, More Balrog is correct. We were calling him More Vega.

Yeah, now that I think about it, that guy had to be the biggest hardcore turtle I've ever faced. More was definitely SF heaven!

[Zaelar]

Who wants to see that?

I do! Once I learn how to fight against all the top tier characters, all thats left is that one random mid tier counter character that two people in the country use. Every other character is a 7/3, so worst case it becomes a 5/5 against someone who mastered that matchup, which I can improve upon later.

Ok, so the people who have been playing for years and already know the top tier matchups probably would enjoy some variety and learning those rare mid tier matchups, but it isn't something you are going to come across often unless you play one of those characters regularly(either yourself or a close friend).

I also don't mean to use a tier list to pick your character(but if you do, at least do it right and pick from the top). I mean make your own tier list and pick who YOU think is best. If you think a character is better than the one you want to use, but you simply can't get that character to work or you just understand your character better, then go ahead, you'll have a better chance of winning playing a character you are comfortable with and know how to use than a better character that you have no clue how to use.

There is also selecting based on characters that you like because of their story or whatever, which while I support, I don't feel it is competitive in nature. If you can make it work, then go for it, but don't complain when said character loses to random scrubs playing top tier because abuseable move that combos into 60% damage beats out all of your moves. I basically feel pick whoever you want, just don't complain when you lose because your character sucks. Either make it work or get a new character.

[Graham]

Ok ill make this stupid simple since people are going off on tons of tangents. How the fuck does a thawk player who never wins the tournament get an invitation to a pro only tournament?

[Best Kind Boxer]

^ because he's a beast with T.Hawk! :P

I guessing because they want variety? I dunno.

[ShinAkumax]

Got your number. Are you still looking for a place? When are you thinking of moving out?

[Maj]

Because the organizers are trying to host an entertaining event and trying to sell DVDs. Inviting the famous T.Hawk player helps accomplish both goals.

Plus, doesn't it make more sense to invite the best Hawk player than to invite the fourth best Ryu player?

[r3ko]

Didn't Toutanki make the semi finals in the 3v3 tournament a SBO? Id say thats pretty good for a Hawk, i know its a team effort, but teams don't make it semi finals if your players are crap.

[Kyokuji]

Because the organizers are trying to host an entertaining event and trying to sell DVDs. Inviting the famous T.Hawk player helps accomplish both goals.

Pretty much.
EVO took a lot of shit for its 3S finals being all Chun VS Ken/Yun last year.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

My suspicion is that this is like the All-Star Game, where you have to pick at least 1 player from each team. Maybe these tournies do the same thing with all characters.

[Zaelar]

[I'm not trying to be mean in this post, just trying to make a point.]

If the fourth best ryu player is better than the best thawk player, than he deserves the spot more.

A lot of top players could just switch to thawk and then they would be the best thawk, so its more like the best thawk players whos dumb enough to use thawk.

"Didn't Toutanki make the semi finals in the 3v3 tournament a SBO?"

Semi finals in a single elimination team tournament means shit(on its own). Did he even win any games, or did his partners carry him?

He would probably get the invite because of the diversity, which gains popularity, which the producers probably thought would sell better. Inviting 20th best overall who plays ryu or 50th best overall who plays thawk, both of them are probably going to go out first game if 1-15 are there in a single elimination, highly unlikely either will make it past the second round. So for publicity have thawk in there instead of a better ryu. If its teams, put him with some good people(but not the best) so they get a couple wins, but save the best of the best for a good finals. Basic marketing I presume. Not fair for competition though.

[Maj]

A lot of top players could just switch to thawk and then they would be the best thawk, so its more like the best thawk players whos dumb enough to use thawk.
This comment is way out of line and has no logical foundation.

[Best Kind Boxer]

^ does it work in reverse? Can a really good T.Hawk switch to Sim and become Uber-Sim???

That would be dope.

[stream3]

Did he even win any games, or did his partners carry him?

Going off the word of people who were there (i think i read this in one of Zass's posts), Toutanki was a beast during SBO and killed off many teams by himself. He almost took out Kurahashi except he messed up an SPD. So kinda flies in the face of your theory. Nice try.

For sure a top T-Hawk is very watchable, but it's also a legitimite threat if he gets in and doesn't mess up execution wise. It's not like T-Hawk has no hope of winning, unlike Sean in 3s who never gets any play.

[margalis]

This conversation is still going? Why?

Let people choose who they want. Discussion over.

[ToXY]

Anyone ever heard of doing supers with no full meter befor? today i was playing the japanese version of ST on kaillera and i was 2 rush punches away from getting my meter full, but i thought i was only one away, so i rush punched (cant remember if it was kick or punch version into super to try trick my opponent to attack after my rush punch, and anyway the super came out even though my meter was only like 95% full, then after the super came out, it charged up the meter to 100% so i could do another super again.

Anyway p1 was honda i was p2 with rog and it was on the deejay stage, i tried re-creating it but i couldnt, just posting incase anyone knows how this happen.

[Graham]

This conversation is still going? Why?

Let people choose who they want. Discussion over.

When did people not allow people to choose a character? sounds more like you're trying to dictate the topic we talk about. Pretty ironic statement you just made.

[jaminbenjamin]

T Hawk can put himself in a situation where he can do incredible amounts of damage at zero risk; and once he's in that position, he can remain there until you are dead. This is a very difficult thing to do, which is why very few T Hawk players get to the finals or win, but the possibility of the above situation always remains. And of course you don't need cpu reflexes to pull this off, but it does take a good amount of skill and consitency.

[jchensor]

I just wanna add to this conversation on two fronts:

1) I play Cammy because I know her and I understand her. And in 95% of the situations I can be put in, regardless of match-up, I know what the optimal thing to do with her is. Sure, she has natural problems, but knowing what to do in 95% of the possible situations is better than playing a higher-tier character of whom I only know the optimal thing to do in 65% of the possible situations. Sure, that means I should probably go and learn the other characters better, but that's easier said than done. Not all of us have the convenience of having someone who is also very good so accessible. After all, what does it teach me to beat up on people who aren't as good as me with someone like Claw?

When I use Cammy, I almost never get put into that mental freeze point where I think, "Oh shit, what should I do now?" like I do with other characters. And with the other characters, I die a lot of times as a result of that affliction. So in other words, playing Cammy, for me, IS playing to win. I used a higher tier character that I like to use at Evo East and got mopped up. I no doubtedly would have done far better with Cammy. Cammy gives me the best chance to win. There's nothing more to it than that.

2) Saying the Japanese need to differentiate from other Japanese by their play style because they all look the same? Come on, Graham. ^_^ You're better than that! Being Asian, I do take a little offense to that statement, as it does sound pretty darn racist. ^_^ We really don't ALL look the same.

- James

[serrano pepper]

I've been a loyal Sega Saturn player for like 10+ years and enjoy fighting games on it because I really enjoy their pads for fighting games. Back then the Saturn was the 2d power monger that created the quote "2D FOREVER". My question is what is so horribly bad about Super Turbo on Saturn as I've been out of the scene for quite a while and how it differs from the Arcade? I tried playing AE on my xbox with a saturn pad and a magic box but there's lag(ie button delay) so I went back to saturn as the controller response was much better. I did notice the sprites on the saturn were WAY bigger. Does it affect the total outcome of the game?

DX

[ramza]

I just wanna add to this conversation on two fronts:

1) I play Cammy because I know her and I understand her. And in 95% of the situations I can be put in, regardless of match-up, I know what the optimal thing to do with her is. Sure, she has natural problems, but knowing what to do in 95% of the possible situations is better than playing a higher-tier character of whom I only know the optimal thing to do in 65% of the possible situations. Sure, that means I should probably go and learn the other characters better, but that's easier said than done. Not all of us have the convenience of having someone who is also very good so accessible. After all, what does it teach me to beat up on people who aren't as good as me with someone like Claw?

When I use Cammy, I almost never get put into that mental freeze point where I think, "Oh shit, what should I do now?" like I do with other characters. And with the other characters, I die a lot of times as a result of that affliction. So in other words, playing Cammy, for me, IS playing to win. I used a higher tier character that I like to use at Evo East and got mopped up. I no doubtedly would have done far better with Cammy. Cammy gives me the best chance to win. There's nothing more to it than that.

2) Saying the Japanese need to differentiate from other Japanese by their play style because they all look the same? Come on, Graham. ^_^ You're better than that! Being Asian, I do take a little offense to that statement, as it does sound pretty darn racist. ^_^ We really don't ALL look the same.

- James

qft on so many levels(is also asian^_). even with the most basic characters, breaking down their game to a point where you're THAT comfortable takes a while.

[Zaelar]

I think i'm being misunderstood, so I'm going to try to explain what I was trying to say in my previous post. I appologize for any misunderstandings or anyone feeling insulted, it was not my intent.

I'm not trying to be mean in this post, just trying to make a point.

I know the post has a negative feel to it, but I'm not trying to discredit anyone or say that anyone is bad.

If the fourth best ryu player is better than the best thawk player, than he deserves the spot more.


Key words being ...player is better than...player... Ryu and thawk were just used as examples, and can be changed to any character.

A lot of top players could just switch to thawk and then they would be the best thawk, so its more like the best thawk players whos dumb enough to use thawk.


Again, thawk was just an example, and can be replaced with pretty much any low tier character. This was meant to discredit anyones reason for picking a low tier character to be the best who uses that character when the best 200 players don't use said character.

Anything said before this had nothing to do with Toutanki, or anyone else specifically.

Semi finals in a single elimination team tournament means shit(on its own). Did he even win any games, or did his partners carry him?

This was referring to Toutanki, but wasn't meant to be in a negative way. Firstly, single elimination only cares about the best player, so semi finals doesn't mean all that much. Being SBO in a way negates that, as getting that for at such a prestigous tournament would mean something, assuming you aren't getting carried by your team, which I didn't mean to imply was the case. I meant that you should ask questions like that to determine if making semi finals meant he was good. Based on the response I got, it would seem that he is, unless everyone he went against just didn't know how to fight against him. I'm unaware if he has previously been in SBO or other events and shown consistancy, but if not this may have been a fluke. I'm not saying that it was a fluke. It might have been a fluke that he lost, maybe he'll come back next year and win SBO. I'm just saying that it _might_ be. The same goes for everyone's first placing.

The rest of the post really doesn't apply, was mostly me rambling.

^ does it work in reverse? Can a really good T.Hawk switch to Sim and become Uber-Sim???

That would be dope.

If the T.Hawk player was just playing T.Hawk because he was bottom tier, maybe. If because he thought T.Hawk was good, not likely. If because he only understands how to use T.Hawk, no. In other words, how good he is with T.Hawk doesn't have much to do with it.

Jchensor is a good example of someone playing low tier for the right reasons(assuming Cammy is low here, i'm not fluent on ST tiers). He probably wouldn't have gotten as far as he did at evo if he tried to use Uber-Sim.

Sega Saturn

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think I remember reading that Sega Saturn Super Turbo is one of the closest home versions of ST to the Arcade version. So if you are practicing for an arcade, then it is good.

Again, I'm not sure, so getting confirmation from someone who is is a good idea.

[Khiempossible]

I've been a loyal Sega Saturn player for like 10+ years and enjoy fighting games on it because I really enjoy their pads for fighting games. Back then the Saturn was the 2d power monger that created the quote "2D FOREVER". My question is what is so horribly bad about Super Turbo on Saturn as I've been out of the scene for quite a while and how it differs from the Arcade? I tried playing AE on my xbox with a saturn pad and a magic box but there's lag(ie button delay) so I went back to saturn as the controller response was much better. I did notice the sprites on the saturn were WAY bigger. Does it affect the total outcome of the game?

DX

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Game_Versions

[Graham]

2) Saying the Japanese need to differentiate from other Japanese by their play style because they all look the same? Come on, Graham. ^_^ You're better than that! Being Asian, I do take a little offense to that statement, as it does sound pretty darn racist. ^_^ We really don't ALL look the same.

- James

Im half asian myself james lol, but yeah maybe thats a bit much. I dunno though when i go to my asian side family gatherings when they are all facing away from me for a picture i cant tell anyone apart =P but in either case you're right that was stupid of me to assume that has anything to do with their actions in game.

[serrano pepper]

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Game_Versions

Still only mentions the bigger sprites on Sega Saturn nothing else but thanks for looking anyways!

[Khiempossible]

actually it mentions that guile gets his cps1 chain back. that's a pretty big difference.

[NKI]

A lot of top players could just switch to thawk and then they would be the best thawk, so its more like the best thawk players whos dumb enough to use thawk.You are absolutely insane if you think anyone could get on Mayakon's/Toutanki's level that easily. Sounds to me like you've never seen those two play (Toutanki was winning convincingly at SBO), or you just have no idea what it takes to get good with a character.

My question is what is so horribly bad about Super Turbo on Saturn as I've been out of the scene for quite a while and how it differs from the Arcade?Haven't confirmed this myself, but apparently the Saturn version also has slowdown on certain stages, like DeeJay's.

[r3ko]

I know this is has probably been posted before (can't find it, if it has), but who are all the players on the Insanity DVD.

Also on another note, this topic is becoming quite dry. This game is very balanced, and has been proven time and time again, that any character can get wins.
People pick characters for all different reasons, you can't just say its for this reason or that reaon nothing else. And there is no right or wrong reasons either. People pick characters they like, characters they understand and play play well with, and characters to set themselves apart.

I probably enjoy using Blanka the most, even though Bison (dic) is without a doubt my best character, that won't stop me using Blanka. Doesn't matter if he low tier. Its like some people on here actually want this game to turn into another 3s, a game that is largely dominated by a few characters. I know'll you see mainly top tier characters take ST tourneys but at least you see a fair amount of variation in the top spots.

And Zaelar saying just switching from a top tier character to a low tier character and suddenly be the best if you was one of the best with a top tier character is nonsense. Thats just wrong. Maybe that would be true if all the characters were very similar, but there not. Being good with Rog doesn't make you excellent with hawk.

[margalis]

Like I said, nothing good can come from this topic.

[fatboy]

Like I said, nothing good can come from this topic.

Agreed!

I am all for people expressing opinions (that’s cool). However, carrying on & on about it is not the best use of this thread.

It is really difficult to win an argument of opinion over the net. We have ALL learned this.

Ultimately, arguing a pointless topic ruins a thread. We have seen it many times on SRK.

This topic (about Japanese character selection):

1) Does not discuss game play knowledge and technique or help increase anyone’s ST knowledge base.

Which is what this thread is about, right?

2) Wastes space.

Can we go back to the great discussions about Vega, Balrog, and Dhalsim before all of this started?

That type of information is what makes this thread so great.

[bk2099]

about character selection,

i dont know about you but i personally find charge characters really boring to play, having to stay charged most of the time becomes tedious after a while, i like having the freedom to just walk around and dp whatever comes at me (with ken/ryu) or just to stick a limb in their face with dhalsim

i would say dhalsim followed by ken are the two funnest characters to play, for me anyway

[Khiempossible]

about character selection,

i dont know about you but i personally find charge characters really boring to play, having to stay charged most of the time becomes tedious after a while, i like having the freedom to just walk around and dp whatever comes at me (with ken/ryu) or just to stick a limb in their face with dhalsim

i would say dhalsim followed by ken are the two funnest characters to play, for me anyway

you don't have to stay charged to play a charge character.

Guile for instance likes to sonic boom -> mixup

I also hardly keep a charge with Blanka, I'm too busy pulling shenanigans to keep a charge.

you're probably playing the chars wrong if you're trying to keep charge the whole match instead of going for the win.

[bk2099]

well if you paid attention to my post i said "having to stay charged most of the time", i dont know where you're getting this "keep charge the whole match" business from...

on an unrelated note, i dont see why you feel the need to quote my post when it's directly above yours

[NKI]

Let's stop talking about character selection and start talking about this:Anyone ever heard of doing supers with no full meter befor? today i was playing the japanese version of ST on kaillera and i was 2 rush punches away from getting my meter full, but i thought i was only one away, so i rush punched (cant remember if it was kick or punch version into super to try trick my opponent to attack after my rush punch, and anyway the super came out even though my meter was only like 95% full, then after the super came out, it charged up the meter to 100% so i could do another super again.

Anyway p1 was honda i was p2 with rog and it was on the deejay stage, i tried re-creating it but i couldnt, just posting incase anyone knows how this happen.:confused:

The first super came out when you simply did charge back, towards + button?
Did the second super come out automatically, or did you enter another command?
About how much time was there between supers?

[ToXY]

You know when you do charge back, toward + kick, back, towards + punch so you whiff a rush punch then super straight after to trick them into punishing your rush but then the super hits.... well i did that because i saw that my meter was close to the end and though my rush punch would give me full meter, but it was a tiny bit off and the super still came out, and what was more cool is that it didnt take away my super, by using the super filled my meter up to max so i would have been able to do another super right after it, i was so shocked and i wanted to tell my opponent to stop attack me so i could do the other super, (i only had a bit of health left, so did he) anyway he kept attacking and was all in my face so i pressed s.hp instead of doing another super because i was rushed and had no time to charge super and since i had no life left and i wanted to keep him out, but the s.hp hit him and killed him.

[Fasty McNasty]

Let's stop talking about character selection and start talking about this::confused:

The first super came out when you simply did charge back, towards + button?
Did the second super come out automatically, or did you enter another command?
About how much time was there between supers?


No, he did rush punch then executed the super (thinking he had full meter to beat a counter poke). But the super came out with him only having 99% meter. The super then gave him full meter for a second super. Weird.


Edit
im too slow

[jchensor]

Im half asian myself james lol, but yeah maybe thats a bit much. I dunno though when i go to my asian side family gatherings when they are all facing away from me for a picture i cant tell anyone apart =P but in either case you're right that was stupid of me to assume that has anything to do with their actions in game.

See, I knew in the back of my head you and Alex were part Asian, which is why I was wondering why you would have made that kind of statement. ^_^ But you know, I don't doubt that Asian all can look the same to those unfamiliar with us. But it happens to everyone. Hell, my bro got confused watching Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels because he got confused who was who because all the Caucasian people in it looked the same to him. ^_^

- James

[jchensor]

You know when you do charge back, toward + kick, back, towards + punch so you whiff a rush punch then super straight after to trick them into punishing your rush but then the super hits.... well i did that because i saw that my meter was close to the end and though my rush punch would give me full meter, but it was a tiny bit off and the super still came out, and what was more cool is that it didnt take away my super, by using the super filled my meter up to max so i would have been able to do another super right after it, i was so shocked and i wanted to tell my opponent to stop attack me so i could do the other super, (i only had a bit of health left, so did he) anyway he kept attacking and was all in my face so i pressed s.hp instead of doing another super because i was rushed and had no time to charge super and since i had no life left and i wanted to keep him out, but the s.hp hit him and killed him.

That's crazy. I think we need to find a way to replicate that situation, at least. Try a bunch of different combinations of doing speicla moves and landing hits until you can figure out a way to have the Kick Rush give you 99% of a Super Meter.

Still, though, from a programmer's standpoint, I can't think of any reason why the Super would come out. How would the game be "tricked" into thinking you had a full meter when you actually didn't? I mean, if they worked like Tech Throws, I could see it (where damage is done initially, and then reduced if a Tech Throw is detected). So if a move gives you full value of Super Meter build up but then reduces it if it notices you whiff, it could happen. But... I just can't imagine that's how the system works.

Too bad there wasn't a way to save the replay like in CvS2 or something. ^_^ We'll definitely have to mess with it some more.

- James

[Graham]

That's crazy. I think we need to find a way to replicate that situation, at least. Try a bunch of different combinations of doing speicla moves and landing hits until you can figure out a way to have the Kick Rush give you 99% of a Super Meter.

Still, though, from a programmer's standpoint, I can't think of any reason why the Super would come out. How would the game be "tricked" into thinking you had a full meter when you actually didn't? I mean, if they worked like Tech Throws, I could see it (where damage is done initially, and then reduced if a Tech Throw is detected). So if a move gives you full value of Super Meter build up but then reduces it if it notices you whiff, it could happen. But... I just can't imagine that's how the system works.

Too bad there wasn't a way to save the replay like in CvS2 or something. ^_^ We'll definitely have to mess with it some more.

- James

Last night i did a rush into super, the rush being the move that charged my super, ,but had done the motion even though i hadnt charged fully. I know this isnt the same as what you describe. It used the super bar though

[NKI]

Graham - Yeah, remember you can always do your super before you have the meter. Chun can store her super motion at the beginning of the round, then build up a full level while still holding towards, press kick any time, and the super will come out.

As for that Boxer glitch, I have no idea how Kaillera's lag affects things in the game's engine, but the only thing I can think of is...

The rush should have given you full meter; you did the rush; the game acknwoledged that you can do a super now, but lagged and didn't fill up your super meter right away; you did a super; then the game caught up with the lag and filled your meter.

I have no way to test that though, so it could be completely wrong...

If we can reproduce it without Kaillera, that would be awesome, because then it wouldn't be just some stupid lag bug, but I would be really, really shocked if this has nothing to do with the emulator.

[Nick T.]

That's crazy. I think we need to find a way to replicate that situation, at least. Try a bunch of different combinations of doing speicla moves and landing hits until you can figure out a way to have the Kick Rush give you 99% of a Super Meter.

Still, though, from a programmer's standpoint, I can't think of any reason why the Super would come out. How would the game be "tricked" into thinking you had a full meter when you actually didn't? I mean, if they worked like Tech Throws, I could see it (where damage is done initially, and then reduced if a Tech Throw is detected). So if a move gives you full value of Super Meter build up but then reduces it if it notices you whiff, it could happen. But... I just can't imagine that's how the system works.

Too bad there wasn't a way to save the replay like in CvS2 or something. ^_^ We'll definitely have to mess with it some more.

- James

James,
There's a similar trick in CvS2 with A groove where you can activate at 97% full bar.

What happens is when the bar is completely empty, and you whiff an attack, nothing fills up.
This brings me to 2 conclusions
1) The bar is actually 102% ish in size(hypothetically, pixels I guess)
2) The first whiff goes into "storage" for later use in the activation.

It's a pretty good trick I use once in a while, and it's good for clutch situations if you need the AA CC or whatever.

But just thought I would bring it up since it was similar.

Maybe for ST, play around with the super bar and see if it actually fills up the way its "suppose" to.
Play around with combinations of hits, whiffs, etc.

[Airthrow]

I've had extremely weird shit happen on occasion in my matches on Kaillera which I've never been able to reproduce online. In KOF 98 I once did a 90-98%ish damage regular DM fireball with Ryo on a non-counter hit. The opponent's character was FRESH, jumped, got anti air FB'd, and had a SLIVER of life left. We both stopped playing and were chatting during the match trying to figure out how I did that.

[Maj]

The CvS2 thing is just a normal move which builds the last bit of meter being kara-canceled into CC activation.

[FMJaguar]

The CvS2 thing is just a normal move which builds the last bit of meter being kara-canceled into CC activation.

Why isn't the ST bug the same thing, except it glitches out and sets the bar to 100% instead of adding a few pixels?

[Maj]

Because the bulk of your sentence doesn't happen in CvS2. All i meant to say was that there's nothing special about Nick's CvS2 example. Also because so far the ST thing has happened to one guy so we don't have enough info to be guessing yet. Besides, it sounds to me like ToXY is saying that the LK dash upper didn't build full meter, but rather it built almost-full meter and then the super connecting added a little more meter. Why settle for less than relevant analogies just because everyone is trying to be the first to explain it?

[SweetJohnnyV]

Still, though, from a programmer's standpoint, I can't think of any reason why the Super would come out. How would the game be "tricked" into thinking you had a full meter when you actually didn't?


I'm a game programmer, so I'll give you a hypothetical answer to that. If they store the amount of super charge as a floating point number, then it might make sense. For the non-techies in the crowd, a floating point number is a number with a fractional part, like 99.92. Anyway, floating point numbers are stored in computers in an inprecise way. There may be no way to store EXACTLY 100.0. So, often times when you do comparisons with these numbers you use a little slop factor, like this:

if( SuperMeter > 99.9 )
{
DoSuper();
}

Now, what could have happened here is that the check for doing the super and the check for depleting the meter used different slop factors. So, if the code says:

if( SuperMeter > 100.0 )
{
SuperMeter = 0.0;
}

Then if the SuperMeter was anywhere between 99.9 and 100.0 then you could have the super come out, but the bar not go away.

Doing this would be pretty sloppy programming. But then again, I've seen a lot of sloppy programming in the games I've worked on :wgrin:

Just a possible theory....

[Nick T.]

The CvS2 thing is just a normal move which builds the last bit of meter being kara-canceled into CC activation.
ahh didn't know it was kara-cancelled. I thought it was something random and weird.

[Baines]

I'm a game programmer, so I'll give you a hypothetical answer to that. If they store the amount of super charge as a floating point number, then it might make sense.

While I'm not saying it is impossible, I'd find it highly unlikely that ST used floats for charge values.

ST dates back to a time when use of floating point math was discouraged, as it was often horribly inefficient compared to integer math in speed of operation. That mindset was so heavily ingrained that some coders continued to avoid floating point even after its speed improved.

As well, there is no advantage to using floating point anyway. Life and super meters act integer based and charge times can easily be handled with integers, counting each frame held. Same with character positions and hit/vulnerability boxes.

[ToXY]

Im not quite sure if it was kaillera that made it happen, but i dont think so since both me and my opponent had 15 ping each, and when i did the rush punch it charged meter straight away, it wasnt like it was lagged. too bad after i did the first super, i didnt get the chance to do another one since i killed the opponent but im pretty sure the next super would have worked because it was full meter.
Is it possible that this could just be a random glitch where you cant reproduce it, or are all glitches reproducable?
Also could this be a glitch caused by the emulator? anyway ive tried so much to get it again and its never worked... im out of ideas.

Oh and also if anybody is still trying to find out how to do this, i was on extremely low health, and was on the left side of the screen, im not quite sure if my rush punch whiffed or got block, but the super hit and after the super hit we were both on around 3% health left each.
anyway i wouldnt spend too much time trying because since its never happen to anyone befor in all these years, im thinking its just a glitch with the emulator.

[SweetJohnnyV]

While I'm not saying it is impossible, I'd find it highly unlikely that ST used floats for charge values.

ST dates back to a time when use of floating point math was discouraged, as it was often horribly inefficient compared to integer math in speed of operation. That mindset was so heavily ingrained that some coders continued to avoid floating point even after its speed improved.

As well, there is no advantage to using floating point anyway. Life and super meters act integer based and charge times can easily be handled with integers, counting each frame held. Same with character positions and hit/vulnerability boxes.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. I actually would be pretty surprised if they used floats. I just figured I'd throw that out there since it's the only thing I could think of that'd cause the engine to allow that to happen.

[NKI]

Let's also not forget that Kawaks has cheats, including a "Full Super" cheat. I have no idea how, but that could possibly be connected.

[ToXY]

Yeah but cheats dont work online, anyway even if it somehow activated it by itself while i was playing, it would make my meter full at all times, whereas i did a super with a not completely full meter.

[NKI]

My point was that the emulator has the capability to control how much meter you have (even when the user doesn't, like during netplay), so it could just be a Kawaks bug.

[Best Kind Boxer]

FIRST PAGE'D!!

I know with Hawk I can do kick throw, then go for crossup MK afterwards. But sometimes it doesn't work? I understand that this has to do with when he releases them from the hold. Right?

I know other characters can do this right? Like Honda, he can get crossup RH after his bear hug right? But when I try I can't get it?

I realize it has to do with how they let them go from the hold, but is it also character specific? Are some characters just too fat for it to work on? Are there characters that I should never try it against? Characters that it rarely works on? Always works on?

Another thing.. (too much i know) but which characters can do this stuff? I know Rog can do the walk under thing.. Ken can walk under. Can Ken do crossup instead? Can Sim do crossup slide after Noogie? I think I remember reading that he can? I dunno.

[Graham]

FIRST PAGE'D!!

I know with Hawk I can do kick throw, then go for crossup MK afterwards. But sometimes it doesn't work? I understand that this has to do with when he releases them from the hold. Right?

I know other characters can do this right? Like Honda, he can get crossup RH after his bear hug right? But when I try I can't get it?

I realize it has to do with how they let them go from the hold, but is it also character specific? Are some characters just too fat for it to work on? Are there characters that I should never try it against? Characters that it rarely works on? Always works on?

Another thing.. (too much i know) but which characters can do this stuff? I know Rog can do the walk under thing.. Ken can walk under. Can Ken do crossup instead? Can Sim do crossup slide after Noogie? I think I remember reading that he can? I dunno.

It depends on who you are fighting, it also depends on if your character releases them near the corner or not. The corners affect your fall rate.

[Pained Auron]

chun still has her super glitch from st in ae right?

[Desk]

yeah but you have to choose her 'origional' ST version by holding start or whatever the equivalent is on the xbox. Also since does anyone know of any other changes using this (apart from honda)?


to below: You can do it with everyone and to get O. ST guys you just hold start while selecting super. My question is whether it actually changes any other characters.

[jaminbenjamin]

I think there's also a way to pick the ST version of super Sagat, but I'm not sure how it's done; might have to hold down start like chun/honda.

[r3ko]

Does anyone have a translation for T.Akibas tier list

I pretty sure someone translated it, but i can't seem to find it anywhere, despite all my searching.

EDIT, don't worry, i worked it out for myself

Here it is below if anyone else in interested


1. Akuma
2. o.sagat
2. Dhalsim
4. Vega
5. Balrog
6. o.dhalsim
7. Deejay
8. Guile
8. o.vega
10. Ryu
10. Sagat
12. Chun
12. o.guile
14. o.chun
15. o.balrog
15. Honda
17. Blanka
18. o.ryu
19. Bison
19. Feilong