Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

[Eishi]

ssf2xj.rc0 = Ryu reversal throwing Dic out of meaty slide

Seems to me that Ryu woke up at the moment the slide was over (even if Dic was still in his slide animation, it may not be an active frame).


ssf2xj.rc1 = magic unthrowable slide

Seems normal to me


ssf2xj.rc2 = Sim reversal throwing Chun's meaty st.Fierce (palm)

I have no explanation for that one... maybe dhalsim woke up at the exact end of the st fierce


ssf2xj.rc3 = magic unthrowable palm

Normal


ssf2xj.rc4 = Cammy reversal throwing Boxer's Final TAP

This file didn't work : Cammy gets hit (I tried to play it back several times)


ssf2xj.rc5 = magic unthrowable Final TAP

Doesn't seem magic to me lol


I just recorded these files :

rc0 : dhalsim trying to throw chunli when waking up into her st fierce
rc1 : same as above but dhalsim tries to use his noogie this time
rc2 & rc3 : same as the other files, but with ryu trying to throw
and Dic doing a slide (rc2 : middle of the screen rc3 : corner)

Here is the link : http://atlas.walagata.com/w/eishi/no.reversal.throws.rar

[Shag]

I see that Apoc is playing O.Boxer in the EVO 3v3-matches, does O.Boxer has any major advantages over the N.Boxer? I mean, Ns super is one of the tightest in the game by far.

O. Boxer's straight dash punch hits ducking characters where as N. Boxer's doesn't.

N.Boxer lost this ability in ST but acquired the low rush punch that hits low and knocks down
and of course his super combo which hits ducking characters

Both boxers TAP hits ducking characters.

[NKI]

Seems to me that Ryu woke up at the moment the slide was over (even if Dic was still in his slide animation, it may not be an active frame).The slide most definitely is meaty (it hasn't ended yet). I think it's pretty obvious to the naked eye, but if you don't believe me, stop the playback after Dic does the slide (but before Ryu throws him). Ryu will get hit, so the slide is indeed meaty.

Dic's slide has one huge window of hitting frames ("active frames", as you call them). There are no "inactive frames" in that window.

ssf2xj.rc1 = magic unthrowable slide

Seems normal to meMaybe you missed the point here. You can clearly hear the normal move whiff (which means normal move reversals are also possible), and that means that sometimes you just randomly can't reversal throw, for whatever reason. That's not normal.

ssf2xj.rc2 = Sim reversal throwing Chun's meaty st.Fierce (palm)

I have no explanation for that one... maybe dhalsim woke up at the exact end of the st fierceNegative. Again, if you stop the playback after Chun does the st.Fierce (but before Sim throws her), you will see that Dhalsim gets hit, so it is indeed a meaty (it hasn't ended yet).

ssf2xj.rc4 = Cammy reversal throwing Boxer's Final TAP

This file didn't work : Cammy gets hit (I tried to play it back several times)Sorry, I forgot to mention that you need to turn on Boxer's Full Turnpunch in the cheats menu. (I didn't have time to sit there manually charging for Final TAP.)

I haven't had a chance to watch your playbacks yet, but if you're trying to prove that reversal throws don't exist, you can't do that through playbacks (you can't prove a negative). The burden of proof is on me (to prove that they do exist), and I believe I've done a sufficient job of that.

I really am surprised reversal throws are even being questioned. It's common knowledge among ST players...


-Nicholai!

[Eishi]

I question their existence because :

-In my experience as a player, I never encountered them

-It's not logical at all. No sf game has reversal normal throws or reversal normal moves. By definition a reversal can only be done with special moves.

How am I supposed to beleive that they exist when I'm able to hit with a meaty attack a charater getting up with an "autofire throw" ? I tested several times with several charatcers. However I can conceive that reversal throws might exist under specific conditions, but if this is the case I would be very interested to know how and why they can be done.


I really am surprised reversal throws are even being questioned. It's common knowledge among ST players...

I also know that there were (and are) lots of things that were believed to be true by most people that were later proven to be false. We don't have all the technical data and informations that japanese players have, so people often imagine things and rules that doesn't exist. That's why I always verify the informations that I come accross.


Edit :

Maybe you missed the point here. You can clearly hear the normal move whiff (which means normal move reversals are also possible)

I watched this file again several times, -frame by frame- and I only saw ryu starting to enter in guard animation, then the next frame he got hit by the slide. There wasn't any move whiffing.

[VManOfMana]

So, just making sure.

The X-Mania torrent that CigarBob is posting includes the matches of the X-Mania CD 6 posted on CV.com?

[Nick T.]

Good vids. I DLed group 1. I liked the Ken in b131-b133. :tup:

[dialupsucky]

why can ryu easily tiger knee hurricane kick foward like ken,akuma BUT he can not tiger knee hurricane kick backwards as easily? As a matter of fact I almost belive theres a stipulation to tiger kneeing backwards with ryu as sometimes its just like any other move. And other times it seems impossible to do with ryu for some reason.

Is there any legit reason why this is like this with ryu?

[CigarBoB]

So, just making sure.

The X-Mania torrent that CigarBob is posting includes the matches of the X-Mania CD 6 posted on CV.com?

Yes the final batch has the vids that were posted at CV.com.

But alot of the first and second batch were not posted at CV I found them before CV took off like it is now.


On the meaty throw timing. IMO (and its only my opinion) a well timed meaty can only be blocked.

Take Gief for example if you knock down with a cr.rh and then walk up and meaty them again you have to either block or time a perfect reversal DP with ryu. AFAIK you only have 1-2 frames to time it right. Characters like Rog/DJ can do a rising move beacuse they take off instantly and are invincable. But I have never seen a "Reversal throw" take me out of a meaty RH with gief.

I say if you really want to test it use Gief cr.RH as the meaty and then see what you get.

[JumpsuitJesse]

Haha..well since you're gonna take some shots, i might as well then myself. You think the 1 bad fireball = 50% damage is funny...try making "some" players quit playing when they're in the corner. Now that stuff is hilarious...even my casual non-hardcore buds who stopped playing SF don't quit like that. Or the line, "you make it boring"...pleez, get that non-hardcore talk out of there. Yea, and shotos vs sim is an uphill battle, yet no complaints from me. That crack about the asswhoopins is also quite amusing. I also find it funny how when the moment the super meter gets lit, all fundamentals go out the window with the shoto...its all about the knee bash and throw...yet if it doesn't land...no plan B. LOL, i'm just messing man, but don't expect me to just idle while you get all the shots, as it's a 2 way street. It should be fun to play you at evo...I know you're good on pad, but if you want to play us on a saturn style go for it...use whatever you need.

Yeah, I get frustrated and quit if I am getting my ass handed to me. Anger doesn't help my game....especially when I can SWEAR I did a move and it didn't come out(countering a missed dp only to get slapped with another). But that's online play for ya.

Havent played on a Saturn pad. I hear they are good. With I still had my old Capcom Soldier Pad :karate:

I hope come evo you can play on a stick as well as you can on a pad. :tup:

[N-Trade]

I question their existence because :

-In my experience as a player, I never encountered them

-It's not logical at all. No sf game has reversal normal throws or reversal normal moves. By definition a reversal can only be done with special moves.



I disagree with your definition of a reversal but it would be nice if it could be clarified once and for all. From what I've always understood it to be, a reversal in ST is where u go from any of these four states:

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

immediately into an attack, with no neutral frames in between. So be it punch, throw, special or super they all count as a reversal. (But u only get the bonus message with specials & supers)

I'm sure if u play one of the SF EX games you'll see a reversal message for normal attacks.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I dunno how u guys test the frame data stuff with kawaks but can someone prove (or disprove) the legend that T.Hawk's cr.strong into Super really is irreversable. Never been able to recreate the scenario where it says reversal after, say a dp, but the character still gets thrown.

[N-Trade]

But I have never seen a "Reversal throw" take me out of a meaty RH with gief.

I say if you really want to test it use Gief cr.RH as the meaty and then see what you get.

But were u using the meaty cr.RH at full range. Assumin u were, this is prolly out of all chars throw range except maybe sim. Just curious.

[Superking]

Best thread in FGD. :tup:

[CigarBoB]

But were u using the meaty cr.RH at full range. Assumin u were, this is prolly out of all chars throw range except maybe sim. Just curious.

NO do it right up next to them when they are getting up. So they get up into the Cr.RH.

[Eishi]

N-Trade :

A reversal is defined as the action of cancelling the last frames of the following animations with a special move :

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

This definition is, as far as I know, valid for all the SF games (I don't consider the SF EX series to be real SF games, since they weren't made by Capcom) that were released after SF2CE, SF2T being the first SF game to implement reversals .

[Gen-An]

O. Boxer's straight dash punch hits ducking characters where as N. Boxer's doesn't.


One reason why the Saturn version of ST cannot be used in a tournament is that O. Boxer's Dash Straight whiffs crouching opponents, making him almost as useless as US CE Boxer!

[margalis]

Since a couple of people were asking about this, in the XMania vids you can see an example of N.Ken doing a HCF+K through a grounded opponent and coming out on the other side. It's in xm4_2117_b311_ken_ken.wmv

Ken jumps in with fierce->hurricane, hits a low rh->hurricane kick, then whiffs the HCF+K to get on the other side, then does fierce->jab dragon. Nice little sequence.

Edit: Later in the third set of XMania vids in a Ken vs. Ryu match you see Ken knock Ryu down in the corner and do the step crescent kick (F, DF, D + K) to step over him as Ryu attacks the wrong direction, then end up back on the original side and throw Ryu. This is because the step crescent steps forward and then steps back again, whereas the HCF+kick just steps forward.

[ShinjiGohan]

A reversal is defined as the action of cancelling the last frames of the following animations with a special move :

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

This definition is, as far as I know, valid for all the SF games (I don't consider the SF EX series to be real SF games, since they weren't made by Capcom) that were released after SF2CE, SF2T being the first SF game to implement reversals .

While I agree with your definition of reversals. No need to hate in SF EX series. Besides, IIRC you can't do reversals from normal moves in EX anyway. And with it made by the same people who originally made SF2, its probably more SF than some of the later additions to the series.

[SuperFX]

Thanks for the vids, Cigarbob...I'll prolly continue to seed for the next day or so. :bgrin:

edit...I totally forgot to thank Nick for the footage so...cheers bro :lame:

[NKI]

-In my experience as a player, I never encountered themIn my experience, I encounter them practically every single match (maybe even every single round). Not just myself, but other players (Japanese and American) do reversal throws quite regularly.

-It's not logical at all. No sf game has reversal normal throws or reversal normal moves.That is incorrect. All pre-Alpha 3 games except WW have reversal throws (because throws are 0-frame moves). This will work in CE, HF, SSF2, ST, A1, A2, and even the Marvel series (I've only tested it in XSF and MvC2). In Alpha 3, throws were no longer instant, so they can't be done as reversals.

By definition a reversal can only be done with special moves.Sorry, where did you get that definition from? That is not correct. You will only get a reversal message for Specials/Supers, but it can be done with normals and throws as well.

How am I supposed to beleive that they exist when I'm able to hit with a meaty attack a charater getting up with an "autofire throw" ?Are you using a turbo controller? If so, that is not an accurate way to do it, because turbo controllers do not input once every frame. An emulator's macros would be a much better way to go, but even that isn't 100% accurate. For Kawaks, use this macro: 2,+

which basically means "input Strong punch, advance to next frame, input Strong punch again".

Hold back or towards while using that macro, and you can get reversal throws pretty easily. If you don't get the reversal throw, you can hear the reversal normal come out. There are also rare times where you just get hit clean, and that's the emulator not inputting on every single frame.

I also know that there were (and are) lots of things that were believed to be true by most people that were later proven to be false. We don't have all the technical data and informations that japanese players have, so people often imagine things and rules that doesn't exist. That's why I always verify the informations that I come accross.That's perfectly understandable, but given the evidence I presented you with, I don't understand how you can still deny reversal throws.

I watched this file again several times, -frame by frame- and I only saw ryu starting to enter in guard animation, then the next frame he got hit by the slide. There wasn't any move whiffing.Of course you're not going to see the move come out; he's getting hit on the first frame of it. However, I said if you listen (turn up your volume) you can clearly hear his normal move come out, right before he gets hit, indicating that he did a reversal normal.

From what I've always understood it to be, a reversal in ST is where u go from any of these four states:

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

immediately into an attack, with no neutral frames in between.Mostly correct, but you can also do reversals out of dizzy stun.

To sum it up, a reversal is any time you go from a non-neutral state directly into a move, without ever going to neutral state. A non-neutral state is any state the opponent afflicts on you where you can't do a move, so that means: block stun, hit stun, dizzy stun, while getting up (after being knocked down), and while recovering to the ground (after being hit out of the air).

So be it punch, throw, special or super they all count as a reversal. (But u only get the bonus message with specials & supers)Right.

can someone prove (or disprove) the legend that T.Hawk's cr.strong into Super really is irreversable.That is false. It is irreversable only in very specific (and very few) situations. Every character has a reversal to beat tick throws. Ryu and Ken can DP, Chun can use upkicks or Spinning Bird Kick, Gief can SPD, etc. The only exception is Dic - his super is his only good reversal, so if he has no meter, you can get guaranteed ticks on him.

Never been able to recreate the scenario where it says reversal after, say a dp, but the character still gets thrown.That's the scenario you would need to prove it's irreversable, but you will never get that scenario.

A reversal is defined as the action of cancelling the last frames of the following animations with a special move :

Block Stun
Hit Stun
Ground Recovery
Air to Ground recovery

This definition is, as far as I know, valid for all the SF games (I don't consider the SF EX series to be real SF games, since they weren't made by Capcom) that were released after SF2CE, SF2T being the first SF game to implement reversals .A couple of things here...

First of all, there is no rule that says it must be a special move. Only specials/supers will give you the reversal message, but as I showed in those replays, you can also do reversal normals and reversal throws.

Secondly, you can also do reversals out of dizzy stun.

Thirdly, aside from WW, all the old school games (CE, HF, SSF2, and ST) have the same reversal system. SSF2 was the first game to give you the reversal message, but reversals exist in CE and HF as well. Otherwise [tick throw, repeat] would still be a game-winning strategy like in WW.


-Nicholai!

[Knubbe]

I also know that there were (and are) lots of things that were believed to be true by most people that were later proven to be false. We don't have all the technical data and informations that japanese players have, so people often imagine things and rules that doesn't exist. That's why I always verify the informations that I come accross.

If only someone who's been in Japan for a while could verify this and start his own ST thread!

[Eishi]

In my experience, I encounter them practically every single match (maybe even every single round). Not just myself, but other players (Japanese and American) do reversal throws quite regularly.

Yes, getting up and throwing is very common, but you never cancel your ground recovery animation with a throw.


For Kawaks, use this macro: 2,+

This is exactly what I used


Here is a clear proof that reversal throws don't exist :

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4750/untitled29dy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


And here are the Kawaks replays that I used : http://atlas.walagata.com/w/eishi/recinput.rar

rc0 : Ken does a reversal DP while getting up
rc1 : Ken tries to do a reversal mp
rc2 : Ken tries to do a reversal throw

Compare rc0 with the two others and watch them frame by frame. It is perfectly clear that in the first file, Ken cancels the animation, while in the two others he can't do anything before the ground recovery animation is completely over.

[Duck Strong]

Fair enough, but can we agree that the grounded player's throw takes precedence over that of the attacker?

[ShinAkumax]

Stomping in skulls...for no reason! Lol I never noticed.

[Eishi]

Fair enough, but can we agree that the grounded player's throw takes precedence over that of the attacker?

Yes, and for a simple reason : the grounded player can mash it and the throw will come out as soon as he finishes his recovery. The attacker can't do that, because he has to wait for the grounded player to completely finish his recovery before he can throw him.

[Duck Strong]

I don't think the standing player can even theoretically grab the grounded player first. The guy on the ground must get flagged as invincible to throws for a few frames.

[Eishi]

Theorically the standing player can grab the grounded opponent as soon as the ground recovery animation is over. But this isn't something anyone should try because you have something like 95 % chances of getting thrown. In order to throw the recovering player, you would have to do the throw motion at the exact moment where he completely recovers... whereas the grounded player just has to mash the throw motion.

[Duck Strong]

I have never seen that happen in 14 years of playing SF2 so you'll have to excuse my skepticism. But while we're talking technical, what happens if both players(both within their respective throw ranges) throw at the exact same time? I assume they just both attack, but maybe someone randomly gets priority.

[Eishi]

I have never seen that happen in 14 years of playing SF2 so you'll have to excuse my skepticism.

That's why I said that in this particular situation the grounded player has 95 % chances of throwing the other. Maybe I should've said 99 %, anyways what I wanted to say is that it's theorically possible, but practically very unprobable.


But while we're talking technical, what happens if both players(both within their respective throw ranges) throw at the exact same time?

I just tested that on Kawaks and it turned out that in this situation, one of the players randomly gets the priority.

[Gen-An]

why can ryu easily tiger knee hurricane kick foward like ken,akuma BUT he can not tiger knee hurricane kick backwards as easily? As a matter of fact I almost belive theres a stipulation to tiger kneeing backwards with ryu as sometimes its just like any other move. And other times it seems impossible to do with ryu for some reason.

Is there any legit reason why this is like this with ryu?

I've wondered why Ryu's instant air-HK is so hard to get out myself.

[NKI]

Yes, getting up and throwing is very common, but you never cancel your ground recovery animation with a throw.Did you even watch the replays that I uploaded? I canceled the ground recovery animation with a throw. I never went to neutral state before throwing. I did a reversal throw.

Please go watch those replays again, frame by frame.

What you uploaded doesn't prove anything about whether or not they are actually possible. Your logic is "I can't get reversal throws using macros, therefore they don't exist", and that is completely wrong because I can get reversal throws, I showed you this, and I didn't even need to use macros, so it's not that hard.

I will not continue on this topic any further, because the evidence that I've given you is more than enough. If you want to ignore it, that's not my problem.

Theorically the standing player can grab the grounded opponent as soon as the ground recovery animation is over.This is not true. After getting up, there is a considerable amount of "throw invincibility" where you are otherwise in neutral state (you can be hit, you can do moves, you can throw, etc), but you can not be thrown.


-Nicholai!

[Gen-An]

This is not true. After getting up, there is a considerable amount of "throw invincibility" where you are otherwise in neutral state (you can be hit, you can do moves, you can throw, etc), but you can not be thrown.

I can attest to this. With Zangief you can wait until the instant a downed opponent to fully stands up, input SPD motion and it will whiff. I dunno why Capcom mucked things up after ST by making it so you can throw the opponent much earlier. Couldn't Gief in A2 for instance do a "meaty" SPD?

[margalis]

Yes, in later SF games it certainly does seem easier to throw people as they get up.

As far as this reversal discussion goes, you guys are mixing two different points. One point is whether or not your animation cuts of your getting up animation and other such technical points. The more salient question is, if someone is doing a meaty move on me as I get up and I try to throw them, can I?

Right now the answer is yes, I can. Whether or not that is technically a "reversal" throw is not relevant. NKI has a replay of someone throwing Bison's slide and Chun-Li's fierce as they get up. This means that throwing as you get up exists, at least against some attacks. Unless someone can explain how those replays don't actually show what they purport to show.

[Eishi]

NKI :

I did some more testing and comparing, and I've come to the conclusion that you were right, they really do exist. Now would you care to explain how you do them ? You never talked about that.

I'm really confused. Countless times I've hit my opponents with a meaty attack when they tried to throw me after recovering from the ground. And you can see a lot of japanese players do meaty attacks on the videos. The number one purpose of a meaty attack is to counter someone who tries to throw you while getting up (I also use meaty attacks a lot against players who can't do reversals consistently).


I also noticed that the autofire of Kawaks sucks. For example I tried to do reversal dps using the auto fire and the cheat that allows you to do a special move with one button press. Sometimes the dps were reversals, sometimes not. The autofire isn't consistent at all, and is therefore inappropriate for precise testing.

If anybody knows of an emulator that has a real autofire function (one that makes inputs every single frame), please let me know.

[NKI]

Now would you care to explain how you do them ? You never talked about that.There's no trick to it at all; you just input a throw command on the transition frame between getting up and neutral state. The timing is the same for any other kind of reversal (specical, super, etc). For Chun, I always hold back, tap Strong, then Fierce immediately after Strong, that way I get two chances for the reversal throw. If you have a character who can throw with all Strong, Fierce, Forward, and Roundhouse (like Ryu, Ken, Zangief, etc), you can actually get four chances.

Countless times I've hit my opponents with a meaty attack when they tried to throw me after recovering from the ground.Then they messed up the reversal throw. It's not easy enough that people can get it 100%. It takes practice, but once you get the timing, it's not that hard.

And you can see a lot of japanese players do meaty attacks on the videos. The number one purpose of a meaty attack is to counter someone who tries to throw you while getting upThe reason meaty attacks are good is because only a reversal attack will beat it. Meaties are not used specifically to beat throws; they are used to beat failed reversal attempts, regardless of if that reversal was a DP, a throw, a Flash Kick, etc.

Another reason meaty attacks are so good is because they allow more devastating combos. For example, after a noogie, Sim can do meaty medium Slide, then hit confirm Short slide xx super. That combo does somewhere around 70% damage. Or as you saw in the 3-on-3 vids with me and Cole, Sim can also do meaty medium slide, two-hit headbutt (close st.Fierce) for the dizzy. He can't normally combo after a medium slide--only after a meaty medium slide.

I also noticed that the autofire of Kawaks sucks.Agreed. That's why I just did it by hand. (And because reversals aren't that hard anyway.)


-Nicholai!

[Toodles]

If anybody knows of an emulator that has a real autofire function (one that makes inputs every single frame), please let me know.No such thing. Games check the status of the buttons every frame. If the button shows as pressed on every frame, then the game will think the button is being held down.

[ShinjiGohan]

Except for Zinc I believe, as I still have yet to figure out how to reliably do holding buttons for like Ryu's hop kick or charge moves.

[Duck Strong]

No such thing. Games check the status of the buttons every frame. If the button shows as pressed on every frame, then the game will think the button is being held down.

I guess that means you can actually press the buttons "too fast," interesting.

If Eishi's test method was flawed, does anyone know the answer to my earlier question? Does one player randomly take precedence over the other when they both execute throws simultaneously? Do command throws always beat normal throws? If so, what are the technical reasons for this? I'm pretty sure 2 simultaneous spd's result in 2 simultaneous whiffs, but what about command throws with no whiff animation? Am I too lazy to verify these things myself? Does anyone else care? :wgrin:

[ShinjiGohan]

technically it is possible to press a button to fast, but if the game is playing at 30-60fps, it isn't too likely that you can press and unpress a button in less than a 60th of a second.

If you want to try that out, try to play with a frame limiter and have the fps be 1 or 2 and you'll get an idea of what I mean.

[Duck Strong]

I know it's not realistic at all, I'm just kidding around.

[NKI]

If Eishi's test method was flawed, does anyone know the answer to my earlier question? Does one player randomly take precedence over the other when they both execute throws simultaneously?Correct.

Do command throws always beat normal throws?I haven't tested it, but I'd be willing to bet this is also random.

I'm pretty sure 2 simultaneous spd's result in 2 simultaneous whiffs, but what about command throws with no whiff animation?Whether or not there is whiff animation, two command throws done at the same time will produce random results. Sometimes P1 gets the throw, sometimes P2 gets it (but you'll never get double whiff).


-Nicholai!

[nothingxs]

NKI: How do you that "walk up" super with Chun-Li? I don't get it.

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I just can't find anything with the search function. Maybe I just suck.

[NKI]

Do you mean just storing the super?
Charge back, towards, back, towards (and keep holding towards), then press kick whenever you want and the super will come out.

Or were you talking about something else? She has countless tricks with the stored super. Honda can store his super too, but because he has hands down the worst super in the game, it's not very useful.


-Nicholai!

[nothingxs]

So as long as you're HOLDING towards, you can 'store' the super?

Is there a time limit to it, like a second or so?

Sounds pretty dope, to me.

Off topic: Holy shit this keyboard is fucking loud. I wouldn't be surprised if I woke up everyone in the damn house while I use this.

[Eishi]

If Eishi's test method was flawed, does anyone know the answer to my earlier question?

I didn't use the autofire for this test. I just mapped my joystick to control p1 and p2 at the same time.

[VManOfMana]

So as long as you're HOLDING towards, you can 'store' the super?

Is there a time limit to it, like a second or so?

Sounds pretty dope, to me.


As look as you keep pressing forward (either by forward, up forward and down forward) the super is stored. You can press punch buttons if you want, but as long as you keep pressing forward, whenver you press kick the super comes out.

I am not totally sure about it (I think I read it in another thread) but it is possible to block and keep the super if you are quick enough to press forward again.

[NKI]

Like VManOfMana said, there's no time limit for the stored super, U/F and D/F also count, and you can actually let go of towards for a few frames, then hold towards again without losing it. (So yeah, you can block, but you have to time it like a Just Defend, because if you let go of towards for too long, you lose it.)

You can also change sides without losing the stored super. Just switch directions as your character switches sides. (Doesn't matter if you cross up the opponent, or if the opponent crosses up you; both ways will work.)


-Nicholai!

[KingRaoh]

Two questions...

1. Can someone please seed X-Mania 1-52 (i'm at about 26%)
2. How the holy hell do people do short,short,super with Ryu?

[Duck Strong]

I've never heard anyone else mention this before, but here's a little trick I figured out a long time ago with Ryu. Now this was on DC, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work on other versions.

N.Ryu has an unblockable, yes that's right. It's not exactly practical, but here's how you do it. First you need meter for a super. Now you do your shinku hadoken point blank on a standing blocking opponent and hit him low while he's in block stun. The shinku should keep him standing so you get a free low hit.

Of course the provision that they need to be standing somewhat limits the usefulness of this trick, but I can think of at least one way to apply it. Say you get a knockdown in the corner. You could fake an overhead to look like a meaty, but time it so you recover just before your opponent has fully risen. Hopefully(if your opponent reacted to the overhead fake) he will stand up blocking high. This is where you bust out the super and nail him with a low attack. Now my DC died a while ago, but I'm pretty sure you can also combo off a low short or low forward while they're blocking. I know it's pretty ghetto, but ghetto isn't always a bad thing, especially in ST.

[Kenshiro]

Two questions...

1. Can someone please seed X-Mania 1-52 (i'm at about 26%)
2. How the holy hell do people do short,short,super with Ryu?

KR, you can get these directly from me...I got the whole thing. I'm now studying ST full time! Time to go back to the roots.

[ParryAll]

I guess that means you can actually press the buttons "too fast," interesting.

:

You'd have to press the buttons 60 times a second for that to occur. The fastest possible tap then would be 30 taps in a second. Both would be virtually impossible for a human.

[NKI]

N.Ryu has an unblockable, yes that's right. . . The shinku should keep him standing so you get a free low hit.:confused:...? Did you actually try duck-blocking? 'Cause when you're in block stun, you can go from standing to ducking (and ducking to standing). After stand blocking, you are not forced to continue standing for the duration of block stun. If that were the case, there would be countless unblockables. Even something as simple as j.RH, cr.RH would be unblockable (the j.RH forces them to stand block, then they'd be unable to crouch block the cr.RH).

But this obviously isn't the case...


-Nicholai!

[Duck Strong]

With all due respect I'm not an idiot, I did test it way back when. Maybe it's character specific? I'd have to fire up the DC(RIP :sad: ) again for a more extensive test, but that's obviously impossible right now. Rest assured, I wasn't under the influence or anything, and a semi-respected(lol) friend of mine can corroborate what I'm saying. I think shinku is unique because it hits in such quick succession. I guess an easier though blockable example you could use to test this would be Ken's Fierce Dp. Block the first hit standing and try to crouch block the rest.

[NKI]

I'll test it when I get home.

I guess I'll also test Ryu's instant air Hurricane Kick. I never really noticed going backwards being harder than going towards, but then again, I never really played Ryu...


-Nicholai!

[dialupsucky]

I'll test it when I get home.

I guess I'll also test Ryu's instant air Hurricane Kick. I never really noticed going backwards being harder than going towards, but then again, I never really played Ryu...


-Nicholai!

make sure you go and compare it to ken and akumas as well. Thanks.

[CigarBoB]

Two questions...

1. Can someone please seed X-Mania 1-52 (i'm at about 26%)
2. How the holy hell do people do short,short,super with Ryu?

I will reseed it on saturday. I have to format my HD so ill be down tonight till late.

2. you do short short short then you do the super motion and press Jab+short at the same time. It is the same idea as Ken's but you have about 20% of the window of ken's. But it is possable to do it consistantly if you practice enough.

[Toodles]

Duck Strong is right, I just tested in kawaks with ssf2t.zip (World 940223). Point blank range is too close; the fireball will will pass through after 2-3 chips. Do it at a solid sweep range/tip of s.fierce. For some reason, you can't crouch block after stand blocking the first hit until all of the block stun is over. Ryu has enough advantage to sweep for free. Because of crappy keyboard, I can't test out c.forward xx hadouken.

[Drunken Master]

Does he get free overhead if you block low? I can't remember...

[Duck Strong]

I REALLY doubt it. From what I remember, the timing is pretty tight and an overhead is alot slower than a sweep so... draw your own conclusions.

[Toodles]

For some reason, you can't crouch block after stand blocking the first hit until all of the block stun is over. After playing for a bit, this isn't quite true. There is the blocking when the actual contact is made, and then there is the blockstun afterwards. The hits of the shinkuu happen so fast that you never actually leave blocking before the next hit happens. After all five hits are done, then you go into blockstun, which is when you can switch from high block and low, and also when the 'push back' from the hits kick in. That's why you will normally block all five hits before being pushed back even a pixel from the blocking.

At least that's my take on it. You can't go from high block to low block when blocking, but you can when in blockstun.

[popo187]

Thanks for the Ryu tips at EVO NKI, and a pleasure to meet you :tup:

[NKI]

Duck Strong - I did some testing, and you were right. Here's what I found:

You can't switch to/from ducking/standing while actually blocking something (as the little "blocking sparks" appear), but you can during the blockstun afterwards. Because you're still blocking the hits of the Shinkuu, Ryu gets a free low hit. However, this is not useful in a match because even if they try to fake you out with the overhead, after you see the super flash (on reaction) you can duck block in time.

Still, good to know none the less. I learned something new today. Props to you! :tup:


-Nicholai!

[Eishi]

Just a quick question that's been bothering me : why are tick throws so powerful (well, they are less powerful in st thanks to tech throws) in old school sf when there is the possibility to do reversal throws ?

If you think about it, it would even be theorically possible to reversal throw gief or hawk when they try to tick spd you, but I very rarely see that happen, and when it happens it's because they messed up and did the spd too late.

So what's the deal ?

[Duck Strong]

^^

That was sorta my reasoning for thinking that command throws outprioritze normal onces, but I really couldn't say for sure.

[WraithCo]

I think it's because the timing favours the attacker.
Think of it this way. The attacker, performing the tick throw, knows the timing very well to land his throw on the first possible frame. Since he's controlling the tick, he can use simple muscle memory to get very good timing. The defender, has to look for some kind of visual cue to get the reversal throw off. This makes timing the reversal iffy, and the fact the other guy can do stuff like, jab twice instead of once, chain jabs, link jabs, or whatever, basically tilts the timing heavily in the favour of the attacker. The attacker, just presses buttons according to a predetermined rhythm, more or less. The timing will be close to airtight. The defender has to go off visual cues, and I would bet that most people would have to "feel" for the reversal. They don't have any way of getting the exact timing, and replicating it every time. It's just something you do then and there. Defender needs to recognize the specific tick, especially if the ticks give different amounts of blockstun, and react appropriately on the fly, whereas the attacker knows the timing right from the start.

Dunno, just my 2 cents of game theory. I don't play ST, so I could be making stuff up :p. And I wonder if there's a discrepancy between normal throw ranges, and special throw ranges. That might play a role. Like after 2 T. Hawk jabs, are you still in range to throw? He can 360 you, but can you toss him?

[jms]

I think it's because the timing favours the attacker.
Think of it this way. The attacker, performing the tick throw, knows the timing very well to land his throw on the first possible frame. Since he's controlling the tick, he can use simple muscle memory to get very good timing. The defender, has to look for some kind of visual cue to get the reversal throw off. This makes timing the reversal iffy, and the fact the other guy can do stuff like, jab twice instead of once, chain jabs, link jabs, or whatever, basically tilts the timing heavily in the favour of the attacker. The attacker, just presses buttons according to a predetermined rhythm, more or less. The timing will be close to airtight. The defender has to go off visual cues, and I would bet that most people would have to "feel" for the reversal. They don't have any way of getting the exact timing, and replicating it every time. It's just something you do then and there. Defender needs to recognize the specific tick, especially if the ticks give different amounts of blockstun, and react appropriately on the fly, whereas the attacker knows the timing right from the start.

Dunno, just my 2 cents of game theory. I don't play ST, so I could be making stuff up :p. And I wonder if there's a discrepancy between normal throw ranges, and special throw ranges. That might play a role. Like after 2 T. Hawk jabs, are you still in range to throw? He can 360 you, but can you toss him?


I like that explanation. That's pretty much the way I feel about reversing throws in ST. The attacker is the driver's seat for another reason too. If the defender anticipates a throw and tries to reverse too early, they'll whiff a normal, which extends their throwable range and all but guarantees the throw for the attacker.

[NKI]

Dunno, just my 2 cents of game theory. I don't play ST, so I could be making stuff up :p.For not playing ST, you sure know a lot about ST, because you summed that up perfectly. :tup:

Attacker knows what's coming, defender doesn't. Command throws have more range than normal throws, which is why you can't reversal throw them (provided the attacker does it correctly, and stays out of the defender's throw range).


-Nicholai!

[insomnotek]

what version of st should i be practicing on for evo? :karate:

[Spider-Dan]

In every SF game after CE, you can do reversal normals, specials, or throws. SFEX is the only SF game that shows the reversal message for normals, but all of them have it.

In MVC2, you can actually reversal jump up. As Magneto, knock your opponent down, and do a meaty c.RH slide after the OTG window is over. Have your opponent jump up, and they will jump out every time. Have them jump forward or back, and they will get hit every time.

As for the question of who gets priority on same frame throws, you will notice that when two characters overlap, one of them is "in front" and one of them is "in back." This is determined by the last character to perform an action (walking doesn't count, but ducking does).

This relationship controls who gets priority in same-frame throw attempts. I don't remember whether the person in front or in back gets the priority (it's basically useless trivia), but it is consistent.

Oh, and NKI is right; you can provide a hundred replays of you failing to reversal throw, and his replays showing successful reversal throws instantly negates them all. You can't prove a negative.

[NKI]

what version of st should i be practicing on for evo? :karate:Good question...:confused:

I don't remember whether the person in front or in back gets the priority (it's basically useless trivia), but it is consistent.Are you sure this works in ST as well? I just tested it, and it seemed pretty random to me. Both the "in front" character and "in back" character could get the throw.


-Nicholai!

[vpt_whatup]

NKI: Good job in those vids!

I was just wondering how you did Chun's super after walking forward?

[VManOfMana]

Super was stored. Explanation is a few pages back in this thread.

NKI: are the 3-on-3 ST vids fixed yet?

[vpt_whatup]

Super was stored. Explanation is a few pages back in this thread.

NKI: are the 3-on-3 ST vids fixed yet?Found it. Thanks.

As for the vids, I think that they are fixed. I found them on Preppy's site (http://www.zachd.com/mvc2). I'm assuming that they are fixed because the problem arised when they were on BT.

[Beast of Blood]

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet or not. I got some question about Chun, in one of the X-Mania 4 match, Ryu was getting up, Chun stored a super and did a fireball(Ryu blocked it) and proceed to walk forward right after her fireball and d.mk xx super. How is that possibly done?

If she stored a super and walked up d.mk, wouldn't that suppose to cancel out the charge and store since she input Down and/or wouldn't the super come out right away since she did input a Kick also?

I figure she did a df.mk since that wouldn't cancel out the store since it's Forward command also, but df.mk would just lead to Chun doing that backflip kick she does.

What was the trick to this if anyone knows? Oh and I've also seen a walk up d.lk xx super also.

Thanks!

[margalis]

Just a note about high-low blocking - if you play against Akuma you will see this happen a lot. If Akuma jumps at you and throws an air fireball and you bock it high he gets a free low hit afterwards if he had the right timing.

[ShinjiGohan]

In every SF game after CE, you can do reversal normals, specials, or throws. SFEX is the only SF game that shows the reversal message for normals, but all of them have it.


I have never seen a reversal message for normals in EX. Even in the first EX game were you get meter for whiffing normals.

[Spider-Dan]

I have never seen a reversal message for normals in EX. Even in the first EX game were you get meter for whiffing normals.
In EX+A, I've gotten reversal wakeup standing jab cancelled into DP (with reversal message) many times.

[Spider-Dan]

Are you sure this works in ST as well? I just tested it, and it seemed pretty random to me. Both the "in front" character and "in back" character could get the throw.
This was originally tested on one of the CPS1 SF2s (I believe it was WW, but I'm not certain). This test predated CPS2 emulation, for what it's worth.

[ShinjiGohan]

I've tried presing jab, short and whatever upon wake up and never got a reversal message. Closest that I can think of how that would be possible, was the DP canceled out of the jab within the limited number of frames to register as a reversal.

In which case you're not getting the reversal message for the jab, but the DP that you canceled into.

-edit- tried it with zinc, with a macro (like nki in kawaks) that'll input a jab every frame and never did I get a reversal (at least in terms of the message). I may decide to count frames to see if the normal shorten the wake up stun or whatever, but from what I could tell, it didn't.

[Duck Strong]

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet or not. I got some question about Chun, in one of the X-Mania 4 match, Ryu was getting up, Chun stored a super and did a fireball(Ryu blocked it) and proceed to walk forward right after her fireball and d.mk xx super. How is that possibly done?

If she stored a super and walked up d.mk, wouldn't that suppose to cancel out the charge and store since she input Down and/or wouldn't the super come out right away since she did input a Kick also?

I figure she did a df.mk since that wouldn't cancel out the store since it's Forward command also, but df.mk would just lead to Chun doing that backflip kick she does.

What was the trick to this if anyone knows? Oh and I've also seen a walk up d.lk xx super also.

Thanks!

To do fireball then super the motion is

B(charge),f+punch,b,F(you can press kick at any point after this to bust out the super as long as you hold forward). As was pointed out, you can even jump over your oppenent and retain your charge provided you have decent timing. Honda can use this trick too, but his super isn't nearly as good so it's not recommended unless you know the exact spacing required.

The trick for the fireball is just to do the regular motion but to sneak in a punch on the first forward joystick input. It's not that hard to do and can serve as a fairly basic hit confirm and setup for her silly super+throw game.

To stick in the d.mk, all you do is hit the d.mk and return to forward as quickly as possible so you'll keep the charge. To give you a similar example, say you're charging a boom with Guile, iirc instead of just going b,f, you can charge back, input hcf+p and the boom will still come out if you do it fast enough. I just conclude that as long as you hit all the necessary points in sequence within the set time window, it doesn't matter what you input between them. This is to account for human error, because a game without this system would require ridiculous execution and have far less little quirks and tricks to make it interesting. This is sort of the same concept behind Kara cancels.

I hope that helps.

RE:ShinjiGohan. I'm probably reaching here, but maybe the reversal message appears if the jab is cancelled into the dragon punch within the original reversal window. Or maybe it was even kara-canceled into the dp so that it happened quicker. This is all assuming that reversals have a really big window in EX1. Unlikely, I know, but it's just a suggestion.

[caliagent#3]

If you must jump at fei do so by using Giefs knee short or his body splash because this makes his jumps smaller and gives fei much less time to counter with a flame kick.


wouldn't it be smart to just use s.short, s.forward, or s.roundhouse as AA vs gief rather than going for flame kick which you could be baited into doing? All i ever use is s.short to AA, it beats ALL of giefs jumping attacks. If gief wants to play footsies, use c.fierce to punish him for walking or whiffing an attack. If he uses c.roundhouse, use fei's overhead from mid range to counter that instead of trading with giefs sweep. Fei has an answer to everything gief does. As long as fei prevents geif from scoring a knockdown then this match is in the bag

[polarity]

-edit- tried it with zinc, with a macro (like nki in kawaks) that'll input a jab every frame and never did I get a reversal (at least in terms of the message). I may decide to count frames to see if the normal shorten the wake up stun or whatever, but from what I could tell, it didn't.

As someone else already said, the game only scans for inputs every frame, so if you input a jab on every frame the game thinks you're just holding down the button. It'd be better to alternate between jab and short or something.

[Duck Strong]

Command throws have more range than normal throws, which is why you can't reversal throw them (provided the attacker does it correctly, and stays out of the defender's throw range).

I still think there's more to it than that; even normal throws have ridiculous range in the old games so it's not inconceivable that both characters would be within their respective throw ranges, command or otherwise. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen an ochio attempt get beat out by a regular throw, even when it wasn't off a tick that would supposedly put the non-Honda out of range.

Anyway, I should stop being lazy and just redownload an emulator to check this stuff out once and for all. I'll look into it and come back with my results at some point.

[laugh]

N.Ken is my character of choice and I couldn't do certain things agaist Chun after my knee grab.

The situation goes like this. I would knee grab with Ken, and then walk forward and do low shorts or low forward from either side (depending on which I felt like going) and 9 out of 10 times, i would get thrown. I get the walk up meaty low forward/short on their landing 9 out of 10 times against other characters, so my question is...

Does Chun land a lot faster than it looks than other characters?

It was to the point where it felt like Chun had a free throw window before she landed. I'd like to know what I'm missing.

Thanks, Nick.

[ShinjiGohan]

As someone else already said, the game only scans for inputs every frame, so if you input a jab on every frame the game thinks you're just holding down the button. It'd be better to alternate between jab and short or something.

-correction-

seems I had it input every other frame.So at work it was 1 frame after complete recovery did the jab come out. And that yes, two consecutive frames does count as a held button. I wonder why that didn't work before. But in any case, Holding that "jab everyother frame" did not give me a reversal message. Though I think I once move canceled out of the jab before its attack frames and got a reversal once. But I had lots of trouble timing that. So I'd suspect that what I said was true (with DuckStrong also said.... but this isn't an EX thread, but it does disprove about getting reversal points for normals).

[NKI]

This is to account for human error, because a game without this system would require ridiculous execution and have far less little quirks and tricks to make it interesting.I believe this is why specials are so ridiculously hard in SF1; you have to precisely input the command, with no room for error.

Does Chun land a lot faster than it looks than other characters?I don't know for sure, but that is very possible. Not all characters in ST have the same physics. There's a very real chance that you need to time it differently against Chun.

As an example of different physics, after being knocked down, O.Sagat (not sure about N.Sagat) stands up much more quickly than other characters, so you must do meaties earlier on him.

It was to the point where it felt like Chun had a free throw window before she landed.Keep in mind that if you are within her throw range on the ground, and you are not doing an invincible move, she DOES get a free throw on you, even if you're doing a perfectly timed meaty.


-Nicholai!

[Subliminal UK]

I believe this is why specials are so ridiculously hard in SF1; you have to precisely input the command, with no room for error.

even if you input the command correctly on sf1, you've still got no guarantee that the special would work lol.

i believe the game engine wasn't quite up to the job, something about clock cycles and processing.

a program pad would be useful about now to test this.

sub

[JumpsuitJesse]

wouldn't it be smart to just use s.short, s.forward, or s.roundhouse as AA vs gief rather than going for flame kick which you could be baited into doing? All i ever use is s.short to AA, it beats ALL of giefs jumping attacks. If gief wants to play footsies, use c.fierce to punish him for walking or whiffing an attack. If he uses c.roundhouse, use fei's overhead from mid range to counter that instead of trading with giefs sweep. Fei has an answer to everything gief does. As long as fei prevents geif from scoring a knockdown then this match is in the bag

In a perfect world against a predictable gief, yes, those options would work. I've played many gief's. Gief's low RH is fast and I can't just react to it from mid range with a his hopping fwd kick. Better to just use Rekka punches. At mid range gief actually gives fei a damn good fight. Gief can do moving lariats and low RH mixups. Fei's flying chicken wing kick is somewhat good at this range but I have seen gief counter it CLEAN with a lariat that is already in motion.

[JumpsuitJesse]

Oh and just so you guys know, SAGAT gets up faster than anyone in the game. You totally have to retime your meaties and jumpins when he's getting up from the ground :tup:

[Eishi]

Seems to me that Dhalsim also gets up fast, not as fast as Sagat, but faster than all the other characters.

I also have the impression that it's very hard to tick throw Dhalsim, it seems like he recovers from his guard stun animation quicker as compared to the other chars. What are your thoughts about that ?

[laugh]

Keep in mind that if you are within her throw range on the ground, and you are not doing an invincible move, she DOES get a free throw on you, even if you're doing a perfectly timed meaty.


In simple words, Chun's a cheating ho. You're saying Chun will grab you from her wake up or landing motion even if I'm Bison and doing MEATY roundhouse slide on her? I KNOW it's not possible for other characters, but it's only for Chun or something?

[Eishi]

laugh :

This is what we were talking about a few days ago. Everybody in the game can throw you out of a meaty, because you can do reversal normal throws. Check the previous pages of the topic if you want to know more about that.

[VManOfMana]

Seed request for X-Mania 4 part 3 of 3 (yeah I am late ^^;;)

Or URL in case someone has mirrored it.

I can help with seeding the first two parts if someone else needs them.

[ThyAllMighty]

wtf, if everyone can throw you out of a meaty, then wtf makes meatys dangerous? do i have to bait meatys like walk forward walk back d.rh fireball to condition meatys?

[polarity]

wtf, if everyone can throw you out of a meaty, then wtf makes meatys dangerous? do i have to bait meatys like walk forward walk back d.rh fireball to condition meatys?


Like NKI already said in the same damn thread, meaties are mostly useful to counter failed reversal attempts, and do do more damaging combos.

[NKI]

I also have the impression that it's very hard to tick throw Dhalsim, it seems like he recovers from his guard stun animation quicker as compared to the other chars.Haven't tested it to be sure, but I believe that for any one move, the hit-stun/block-stun is the same against all character.

wtf, if everyone can throw you out of a meaty, then wtf makes meatys dangerous?The fact that it's not easy to reverse, and if you mess up, you eat something JUICY. Chun can do ~75% damage if you miss a reversal. If you miss a reversal against Dic, you're pretty much done. (Neither case uses super, by the way). Besides, even if you can get reversals 100%, I'll just start baiting you.

do i have to bait meatys like walk forward walk back d.rh fireball to condition meatys?If you think they'll reversal throw, do something that will beat a throw, like a DP. :tup:

You want them thinking "Gee, should I reversal, or am I getting baited...?"


-Nicholai!

[insomnotek]

how do you get out of sims slide xx noogie?

[I Am Lothar]

how do you get out of sims slide xx noogie?

Do any reversal after the slide hits.

[Hunter D]

I have a question. I was doing this on SFAC so I don't know if it works in ST. I don't play Ken or Ryu, but I was messing around with them in practice. I know that Ken and Ryu's hurricane kicks have different properties so I was messing around with them to see the differences. Ken's short air hurricane kick can cross up as long as your jump is near the other character's head. Ryu's mk air hurricane is the only one that can cross up, but has strict timing.

I wanted to know if the hurricane kicks work the same way in ST (I haven't played this game in years.) I know Ken's cross up hurricane is pratrical in matches, is Ryu's cross up hurricane parctical to use in a match?

[ryuROCKsim]

cross up hurricane make hurricane warning cross up both ryu and ken work. Ryu get mad mind fuck when he vs tall character like sagat, just cross up hurricane very hard see it is tricky and keep knock down cuz sagat blind one eye and not know what hit him for big beard that not ready ryu best man have won with this one move alone

[Storming Flower]

best srk member ever

[FullMetalRoss]

hey NKI does cr.jab cr.jab st.jab DP with Thawk only work after a cross up? and which cross-up would you suggest I use, jump mk? or jump MP?

Also how would you recomend getting in with Thawk so I can start landing some throws and such? Since this is my biggest problem.

[margalis]

The only combos that only work on crossup are the wacky ones where you face the wrong direction. All hitting a crossup does is make it so the opponent is pushed towards you instead of away from you, so when you land they are right next to you. It's no different from just walking up to someone.

As far as getting in with T. Hawk...jumping down + fierce, jumping jab, or else knock them down with a DP or downward dive. (PPP in air)

[Hunter D]

The only combos that only work on crossup are the wacky ones where you face the wrong direction. All hitting a crossup does is make it so the opponent is pushed towards you instead of away from you, so when you land they are right next to you. It's no different from just walking up to someone.

Are you answering my ques? Sounds like you're talking about the crazy kicks I'm talking about air hurricane kick.

[NKI]

how do you get out of sims slide xx noogie?Do any reversal after the slide hits.Or before the slide hits.
hey NKI does cr.jab cr.jab st.jab DP with Thawk only work after a cross up? and which cross-up would you suggest I use, jump mk? or jump MP?I don't know about the rest of the cast, but against Dic, if he's ducking, [cr.Jab->cr.Jab->st.Jab xx DP] won't work (the DP will whiff), but I think it will work against anyone standing (done after a cross-up, or just point blank).

And Jap Hawk players always use cross-up j.Forward.

Also how would you recomend getting in with Thawk so I can start landing some throws and such? Since this is my biggest problem.He has three main ways of getting in, all of which are iffy:
-zone the opponent, then walk up 360 after he whiffs a poke (this is an absolutely necessary skill if you're going to play Hawk)
-psychic DP a limb or fireball (also absolutely necessary)
-well timed jump-in (not as necessary)

All of those are highly punishable, which is why Hawk is so low in the tiers. If he can get in, he's a beast...it's just that he can't really get in...:sad:


-Nicholai!

[Gen-An]

I can understand why they use the Forward to cross up since for whatever reason T.Hawk's splash doesn't cross up as well in ST as SSF2. Dumb tweak. Speaking of tweaks, I wonder why T.Hawk didn't get any new specials? I guess he was just so overpowered in Super they had to make his splash weaker and only allow his Jab DP move to pass thru fbs :rolleyes:

[insomnotek]

uses for chuns rh flip kick? im getting weird crossups with it on wakeup. also, on block i go for lightning legs, but sometimes ill do it the wrong way.

sup with that? sorry im a scrub.

[FullMetalRoss]

thanks NKI. And yeah Thawk for now is my secondary character. I play Ryu normally, and occasionally play blanka against guile. What do you think of that match btw

Blanka vs. Guile, with me as Blanka. Normally I just walk around in front of him and poke and try and stay at the perfect range where if he throws a sonic boom I can slide it on reaction and still hit him. Then I just go for mixups into throw whenI knock him down.

[NKI]

uses for chuns rh flip kick? im getting weird crossups with it on wakeup. also, on block i go for lightning legs, but sometimes ill do it the wrong way.Yeah, for the characters that she can cross-up, if she lands on the other side, it's really, really easy to get backwards moves, and that's not something you want. To avoid this, after the opponent blocks it, just wait for a split second before doing your follow-up move. I hold down and start mashing for lightning legs once the D/F+RH is blocked. That way I'll get cr.Forward xx lightning legs (to counter when they try to reversal throw). If I start mashing any time before then, it comes out backwards. Same with normals; just do them a split second later than you normally would (in order to give Chun enough time to turn around).

I play Ryu normally, and occasionally play blanka against guile. What do you think of that match btwI could be wrong, but I think Blanka does well in that match.

Normally I just walk around in front of him and poke and try and stay at the perfect range where if he throws a sonic boom I can slide it on reaction and still hit him. Then I just go for mixups into throw whenI knock him down.That's exactly what you want to do. Also, you should use Blanka's invincible j.Short (which will beat Flash Kick cleanly). Do it as a cross-up to Guile after he's been knocked down, and if he tries to Flash Kick, he will lose cleanly. You have to do it pretty high up, so you can't combo off it, but because you're hitting him out of the flash kick, he's air born anyway, and he'll fall to the ground. From there you can do guessing game of your choice, knowing that he doesn't have another Flash Kick charged.

Also, you should use cross-up Blanka Balls. After knocking down the opponent, use either Jab (to not cross up) or Strong (to cross up), followed by [meaty close st.Strong, two-hit headbutt]. That will dizzy a lot of the time. The only problem with cross-up ball shenanigans is that reversal throw will beat both of them (doesn't matter which side you go to).

I was wodnering if you could post maybe chuns basic bread and butters or strats in your thread?Here is my Chun strategy in a nutshell:

-Get meter by throwing fireballs, but only from outside of the opponent's jump distance.
-If the opponent complies and also tries to get meter, let him, because your super is better.
-If he tries to rush you down, use jump straight up RH or make him land on a fireball for anti-air. Using a fireball knocks him down and allows you to do start D/F+RH shenanigans.
-If he tries anything on the ground, lightning legs will beat it. The only exception to this that I know of is Dhalsim's st.Forward from the perfect range (about 1/3rd screen away).
-If you have meter, you should always throw a fireball with the super motion bufferd in (and store it). If the opponent jumps over your fireball, you get free super + upkicks for over 65% damage.
-If the opponent doesn't jump over your fireball when you store the super, follow your fireball up until you are just out side the maximum range of his longest normal, and hold down/towards. If the opponent whiffs any normals, jumps straight up, jumps back, jumps at you, does a special, does a super, does whatever, super him; else, throw or st.Strong melee.

Of course this is not the strat you want to use against every character, but that is a very general breakdown of how I play.

And real fast, I'm using d/f roundhouse to mixup on wakeup, and followup with a st.jab -> grab, or mixups but I'm not sure if I'm playing her "right" (as a poking character, mostly).I would use cr.Forward instead of st.Jab, because if they stand up to try to reverse your throw, a cr.Forward will hit, but a st.Jab will not.

I'm using her air mk and c.mk as pokes because they seem pretty good.j.Forward is really good. You shouldn't be jumping a whole lot, but if you jump, that's the only jumping move to use. It's especially good against Sim and Dic.

I can time a meaty with close fierce punch but I'm not exactly sure what to do afterwardsI either do throw (if I think they'll sit there) or lightning legs (if I think they'll try to reverse the throw).

If I'm going to do a meaty other than D/F+RH, I do the magic dizzy combo, [cr.Forward, cr.Fierce]. That will dizzy most of the time, and if it doesn't, they'll be damn near dizzy (one more hit). After that, j.RH, st.Strong, cr.RH (done while charging back), meaty fireball, guessing game. Basically if the opponent messes up the timing on his reversal (against my cr.Forward meaty), he loses ~60%, plus takes a guessing game.

Hope that helps...


-Nicholai!

[Gen-An]

Just curious NKI, can you do 100 Kicks with HK at the faster speeds (Turbo 2, Turbo 3, USA or Jpn speeds)? I have to use MK; I just can't tap that fast :( Either way, ST Chun is just too fun; even if she isn't top tier she can pretty much fight any character in the game well IMO.

[NKI]

I can get RH lightning legs about 50% of the time, which is not good enough, so I use medium. If I could get RH more consistently, I'd do it, because RH is much better. Notice that when she's doing lightning legs, she's only using one leg, and it's moving up and down, while there are also blurred legs on the screen. Gian told me that Sim can only use drills against Chun's lightning legs at the exact moment when her leg is aimed down, so if you're using RH legs (which is moving much faster) it's pretty much impossible for you to get drilled, but if you're using Forward, it's possible.

This may also be true for Sim's st.Forward and Boxer's straight rush punch (not the low rush), which can also beat lightning legs.

Maybe RH legs is something worth practicing...:confused:


-Nicholai!

[Sexperienced.]

would it hinder or improve the gameplay?

Alpha 3 features
Quick Air Recovery (Neutral, front & back)
Counter - Block, f + same P + K
Ground Recovery - Press KK when knocked to the floor

third strike feature
High Jump - Tap db,uf / d,u / df,ub
Quick Standing - When knocked down, tap d as you land
EX specials


Only for regular characters, not originals (like Og sagat).

[Okame]

Stuff that would make ST not ST.No... just no.
Stuff You are awesome in ways English does not have the words to describe.

[Sexperienced.]

so what makes ST ST?

[felineki]

so what makes ST ST?
Ryu's volleyball punch. :rock: :rofl:

[insomnotek]

:tup: nki is too good.

[FullMetalRoss]

thanks NKI I didn't know about the crossup ball shennanigans. normally for combo I do cr.mk times two into ball. but I'll try that other one out.

[Zandwich]

Thanks so much for your help NKI!

Is there somewhere where I can find bread and butter combos and frame data online?

[NKI]

Hahaha...thanks for the random props. :tup:

normally for combo I do cr.mk times two into ball. but I'll try that other one out.That combo is also very good, but there are two things to consider:
1) If you just did cross-up ball, you probably won't have another one charged.
2) Against many characters, even if the ball hits, you can be punished. It's fine against characters like Hawk, Gief, Chun, etc, but not against Ryu, Sim, Dic, Boxer, etc.

Is there somewhere where I can find bread and butter combos and frame data online?Not exactly bread and butter combos, but Touch of Death combos can be found in Volume IV over at:
http://nki.combovideos.com/

Frame data:
http://www.crazyasskim.com/SF_2_frame_data.htm

Personally I haven't had a chance to sit down and look at that page in depth, so I dunno what the numbers mean. Hopefully it'll make sense to you...:confused:


-Nicholai!

[Zandwich]

Ok so what are Chun's B&Bs?

Hey! ToD combos are really awesome too

[Buktooth]

Here is my Chun strategy in a nutshell:

-Get meter by throwing fireballs, but only from outside of the opponent's jump distance.
-If the opponent complies and also tries to get meter, let him, because your super is better.
-If he tries to rush you down, use jump straight up RH or make him land on a fireball for anti-air. Using a fireball knocks him down and allows you to do start D/F+RH shenanigans.
-If he tries anything on the ground, lightning legs will beat it. The only exception to this that I know of is Dhalsim's st.Forward from the perfect range (about 1/3rd screen away).
-If you have meter, you should always throw a fireball with the super motion bufferd in (and store it). If the opponent jumps over your fireball, you get free super + upkicks for over 65% damage.
-If the opponent doesn't jump over your fireball when you store the super, follow your fireball up until you are just out side the maximum range of his longest normal, and hold down/towards. If the opponent whiffs any normals, jumps straight up, jumps back, jumps at you, does a special, does a super, does whatever, super him; else, throw or st.Strong melee.
-Nicholai!
lies!

that's my gameplan, and i look like a masher. you look all pretty and technical and stuff

and in the event i actually play st before next evo, i'm gonna work on doing nuki overhead stomps (which he messes up 90% of the time, but then gets the throw when he lands)

[NKI]

Ok so what are Chun's B&Bs?These are the only combos I ever do with Chun:
cr.Forward, cr.Fierce
j.RH, st.Strong, cr.RH (to a dizzied opponent)
super, upkicks

That's it. :confused:

and in the event i actually play st before next evo, i'm gonna work on doing nuki overhead stomps (which he messes up 90% of the time, but then gets the throw when he lands)Unless it kills or dizzies, that strat should never, ever work...yet somehow Nuki gets away with it all the time...including against me...:sad:


-Nicholai!

[nohoho]

Here are some vids people might find interesting.
Its a japanese page, just look for the .wmv in the urls.
The movies are hosted on hameko which can be flakey sometimes. (btw use right click->save as)
Coin toss for speed select? Heh.

http://streetfighter.jugem.jp/?cid=7

x0821_31.wmv goto(ryu) vs mayakon(thawk)
x0821_k8.wmv abc(ryu) vs suzuki(guile)
x0821_k15.wmv tsuji(balrog) vs aniken (ken)

gati0NN otochun(chun) vs aniken(ken)

x731_kN shootingD(ryu), komodablanka(blanka), mayakon(thawk)

[SNkNuT]

hey NKI, I just picked up zangief and was wondering what are the best chances to close in and do an SPD on the shotos and what combos suit zangief the best. Thanks.

[jms]

thanks for the videos!!

[Kyokuji]

What do you do against Chun Li with Dhalsim?
It's hard to keep her zoned since her jump arcs higher than most people's, and she walks so fast that she closes the distance really quickly.

So I usually try to keep the drill/spear pressure on, but it's frustrating when she gets in and starts poking me. Normally, I can wait for a break and just throw them back away, but Chun's throw always beats mine out, and she can move in so quickly it's hard to get away once she starts landing some hits. Same goes for low drills, usually if I hit a blocked one at their feet, I can move in a for a throw, but with Chun' she always throws me first no matter what.

I have a similar problem with Honda and Blanka because of their ridiculous throw ranges, and Vega because he shares Chun's 'super throw'.

Also: Honda vs. Sim: This match is supposed to be a fair match, but the more I play it the more I find that Sim is just too good. His fireballs are slow enough so if you try to jump or splash over, you will eat foot or slides. Again the key is staying close enough so Sim can't zone you out from long distance...but the problem is, Sim has ridiculous throw priority, so if you try to splash over a close fireball and follow up, he might throw you out of it, or just start doing crazy drills all over you. Tough match but a turtle Honda SHOULD prevail if he stays inside.

I always thought it was commonly accepted that Honda VS 'Sim is a bad match in Honda's favour? Honda's throw range always messed me up badly.

Lastly, does anyone know where I can get some ST Dhalsim match videos?

[Duck Strong]

Just to expand a little on Blanka vs. Guile, I also think it's roughly 50/50. Blanka's jump makes it easy for him to get over booms on reaction. Slide is ok for a knockdown, but it's unnecessary in most circumstances and more trouble than it's worth. If Blanka gets in, he can potentially do far more damage with his throw shenanigans. As soon as Guile releases his boom, he essentially has no reliable anti-air if he can't jump up(you can just suck it up, take a kick to the face and sack throw since it most likely won't be deep, but this is risky.). Blanka's jump being so fast makes this a free jump in. Of course Guile isn't completely helpless since you probably won't actually hit him, but it does set him up for Blanka randomness.

Edit: About those match vids, is there any reason why it's just the same match repeated over and over in each clip?

[nohoho]

The Ken vs. Chun-Li movies were a sampling of a 20 match (plus tiebreak) showdown between Aniken and Otochun (Daigo's old SBO teammate, btw) that Chun won 13-11.

There's a good blanka vs. guile match in this random file of ST movies on hameko. Shows how the spacing works and some key priority issues like: blanka jump fierce beating guile low forward, guile flash kick beating blanka jump short etc. etc.

hame_1938.lzh (as of today this is listed on page two)
http://www.hameko.net/uploader/upload.php

[NKI]

hey NKI, I just picked up zangief and was wondering what are the best chances to close in and do an SPD on the shotos and what combos suit zangief the best. Thanks.It would be awesome if we could get Kuni up in here to kick down some top tier Gief strats, but until then you'll have to settle for my ghetto Gief strats.

The only two pokes that I see Gief use against Shotos are st.Forward and cr.RH. st.Forward is to stuff fireballs, cr.RH is to beat (or trade with) footsies. After a cr.RH connects, do meaty st.Short, followed by either cr.RH (if you think they'll try to reverse), or SPD (if you think they'll duck block anticipating the cr.RH). If they guess wrong and get hit by the cr.RH, move in and do it again. If you're not in range for the st.Short, use the green hand to move forward first. The [st.Short, cr.RH] will combo, by the way.

Another thing you should try to do a lot is punch lariat through a fireball to knock them down, but you have to be careful not to get hit by the sweep (which is what he'll be doing to try to counter your lariats). If you fake him with a kick lariat, and he whiffs a cr.RH, you can walk up SPD (you're pretty much already in range, so you don't have to walk very far). The trick to this is doing the lariat just outside of shoto cr.RH range, and if you see a fireball, move towards him as you're still doing the lariat. Don't move within cr.RH range unless he does a fireball or whiffs a cr.RH.

What do you do against Chun Li with Dhalsim?Stay across the screen and zone her with Yoga Fires and limbs. If she trades fireballs with you, you get free st.Fierce. If she jumps, anti-air her. I'm not too sure what Sim should use against Chun's j.Forward, but I've seen peeps use jump back Fierce.

So I usually try to keep the drill/spear pressure on, but it's frustrating when she gets in and starts poking me.I would almost never use drills because she can beat it cleanly with st.Jab or lightning legs, and it's hard to get over her Jab fireball without getting hit (because her fireball is so slow). Trading a drill with her fireball is not a good trade, because you get knocked down, and she gets to follow up.

Normally, I can wait for a break and just throw them back away, but Chun's throw always beats mine outKeep in mind that if you tech her throw, you get free damage on her:
-if she stays on the ground and tries anything, you get free throw
-if she jumps back, hit her with a limb
-if she jumps up, make her land on meaty [cross-up cr.Forward slide, close cr.Forward, close cr.Forward]
-if she jumps towards you, do close st.Strong to hit her before she gets over your head

I have a similar problem with Honda and Blanka because of their ridiculous throw ranges, and Vega because he shares Chun's 'super throw'.You don't really want to be throwing Honda or Blanka...just keep them out with Yoga Fires and limbs. Vega (whether you mean Claw or Dic) you do want to throw a lot, because you have more range than them...especially if you mean Dic, because if he has no meter, he has no reversal.

Lastly, does anyone know where I can get some ST Dhalsim match videos?http://www.combovideos.com has tons of X-Mania vids, and Preppy is currently hosting the Evo 3-on-3, featuring Gian, Japan's best Dhalsim player.
http://zachd.com/mvc2/

You have to scroll down a long way past a lot of Marvel footage; it's about halfway down.


-Nicholai!

[Kyokuji]

Thanks a lot.
Was that you in the EVO 3 on 3 matches with Chikyuu and Gian?

I saw Gian doing this cross up slide combo from a yoga noogie, but I can't seem to pull it off for the life of me.
Does it only work if the other person techs out of the throw?

[A-Dhalsim]

That was me you saw doing that combo =P It only works on Vega and Chun li. After performing a yoga noogie, you take one step forward and do a forward slide...the slide corsses them up and then you just hit b+fierce for headbutt (instant Dizzy always). After that just rinse repeat ;-)

BTW vs that Chun li match...one good trick that most Dhalsim players have forgotten is this. If she jumps at you with forward and isnt over your head, you can jump back..wait til last second and clean counter her with foward drill. Doesn't matter what she jumps up with, it will hit everytime cause you are completely over her head. I forget to use it at times to, cause most the time chun li is just turtling like a whore til she gets super.

J-Cole

[NKI]

Was that you in the EVO 3 on 3 matches with Chikyuu and Gian?Yeah, that was me, so if you have any questions about how to get killed by O.Sagat or Ryu, ask away, because I know all about it. :sad:


-Nicholai!

[Kyokuji]

Lol, sorry Cole, I always get you two mixed up.

[OmegaX]

Should have kept up with this thread.

Anyways.

I've been playing Rog and I'm pretty decent with him I know how to use him but there two things I've never been able replicate and sorry if you've already posted about it but 20+ pages is a huge ass read.

1.How do you juggle after a grab with his super, I dont know if it's an actual juggle or the opponent just didn't block for whatever reason.

2.How do you throw out a super after a dash punch, the second he recovers from a whiffed dash punch I've seen people immediately throw out a super.

[Saotome Kaneda]

sorry if you've already posted about it but 20+ pages is a huge ass read.

Unless you have dial-up/a 7 days a week 9-5 job with no chance at free time, that is no excuse. If you really wanted the info you would've read it. Both this and the predecessor thread are damn good reads. You don't need to read it in one shot either.

2.How do you throw out a super after a dash punch, the second he recovers from a whiffed dash punch I've seen people immediately throw out a super.

I can't answer the first question, but this one was answered a little while ago. (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2627818&postcount=358)

[NKI]

1.How do you juggle after a grab with his super, I dont know if it's an actual juggle or the opponent just didn't block for whatever reason.It's not a juggle...it just hits as soon as they land. The rule for juggling is that if the move was in SSF2, it can't be used to juggle. Boxer had his throw in SSF2, so he can't juggle after it. Chun didn't have her upkicks in SSF2, so she can juggle after it (and with it).

2.How do you throw out a super after a dash punch, the second he recovers from a whiffed dash punch I've seen people immediately throw out a super.Charge back, towards+Short, back, towards+punch, done as one smooth motion.

For future reference, "this thread is big" is not a good excuse. If you don't know why, check the very first post in this thread.


-Nicholai!

[Eishi]

Can someone confirm that the number of frames you have to do a reversal is 3 ? I found this number by doing various tests with kawaks but I'm not sure about it.

[Spider-Dan]

The rule for juggling is that if the move was in SSF2, it can't be used to juggle. Boxer had his throw in SSF2, so he can't juggle after it. Chun didn't have her upkicks in SSF2, so she can juggle after it (and with it).
Wouldn't Fei Long's diagonal jump RH be an exception to this rule?

[Fuzzy]

Wouldn't Fei Long's diagonal jump RH be an exception to this rule?
Nah, that move is only in SSF2T, but in SSF2 his jumping hk had the same animation as it.

I have a question, using ken against a big character like sagat, when I'm jumping and do a j.lp > hurricane kick, he gets hit twice, the other kick whiffs, but when he's landing again the hurricane kick hits him, i've seen a few people connect the whole hurrican kick to make it a 5 hit combo, how do they do that?

[Desk]

^^I fairly sure this combo doesn't work in ST, only in Super and hyper. That's because it can only be done on 'super version' characters and that doesn't include O.characters. something about the hitboxes being shorter or something.

[Fuzzy]

ok, thanks for clearing that up. :tup:

[Spider-Dan]

Nah, that move is only in SSF2T, but in SSF2 his jumping hk had the same animation as it.
Same animation != same move (see: every super in the game)

[Ryu1999]

Same animation != same move (see: every super in the game)

I think he was saying you were confusing jump hk with chicken-wing kick, and it was because it had the same animation.

That being said why does only Old Fei have cr. mk->rekkas :(

[DarksydePhil]

Just for the record, Blanka wins against Guile probably about 75-25.

All you have to do is stay just outside of his low forward kick range. Wait for him to make a move and then slide. If you do the slide from proper range, he can't hit you after he blocks it. The reason this is an advantage is because Blanka's slide does under Guile's sonic boom clean and sweeps his ass. After a while, when Guile figures out he can't do sonic booms, he'll start jumping or just sitting still doing nothing, or doing the one move that hits the slide clean, standing MK. Do up + FP to smack him out of jump-ins, and just stand around if he wants to do stand MK all day. Also, take 1-2 steps forward and then jump at him with short kick for some crossup or throw schenanigans that he can't do anything about, since his flash kick doesn't stop crossups. The key to winning that matchup is to stay just outside of his low forward kick range and then, honestly, Guile has nothing he can really hit you with effectively.

[JumpsuitJesse]

I think he was saying you were confusing jump hk with chicken-wing kick, and it was because it had the same animation.

That being said why does only Old Fei have cr. mk->rekkas :(

Because New Fei would be way too fucking strong if he was able to 2in1 every move like old fei.

[Ryu1999]

Because New Fei would be way too fucking strong if he was able to 2in1 every move like old fei.

You mean like giving someone no recovery on their projectiles, or giving another character a horizontal move with invincible startup that encourages turtling but the char ALSO has an anti-throw special throw that can be stored? :clap:

Seriously though I still don't think Fei would crack the top tier because strangely enough even with new broken-flavor Fei everyone else would still be even more broken

[CigarBoB]

Because New Fei would be way too fucking strong if he was able to 2in1 every move like old fei.

That would be a dream character. N.Fei chicken wing kick thing with all his normals cancelable? OH GOD! PLEASE!

[Southtown'King]

Does any one know if u use a Super SF II player do the combos from the previous 2 games work. and what "Groove" is the best to use with Ken,Vega,Fei Long?

[NKI]

Spider-Dan is right - there are a few exceptions to the rule. Fei's j.RH is one, and some other exceptions are Ken's crazy kicks and Sagat's Tiger Uppercut. But in general, the rule is that a move can juggle iff it wasn't in SSF2.

the one move that hits the slide clean, standing MK.Never seen st.Forward used before, but st.Short also beats the slide.

Does any one know if u use a Super SF II player do the combos from the previous 2 games work.Not necessarily. For example, SSF2 Dic can not do CE Dic's redizzy.

and what "Groove" is the best to use with Ken,Vega,Fei Long?For Ken, I'd say CE or HF.
If by "Vega" you mean Claw, then probably CE or HF (not too sure, 'cause I don't play Claw). If you mean Dic, then CE, no doubt about it. CE Dic is the best character in the game.
I have no clue about SSF2 Fei. I don't think I've ever seen him once...:confused:
Both O.Fei and N.Fei are good, but I'm gonna have to go with N.Fei. To me, [Chicken Wing + super + teching throws] seems better than cancelable normals. (Does O.Fei have the towards+Forward kick overhead?)


-Nicholai!

[Southtown'King]

Dic?O.Fei?N.Fei? in not good with st abbv

so claw=CE
ken=CE/Hf do his 4 hit combo still dizzy
Fei long?
HELP!!

[VManOfMana]

Fei = Fei Long
Dic = Dictator. U.S. M. Bison/Japan Vega.
Claw = U.S. Vega/Japan Balrog

[JumpsuitJesse]

You mean like giving someone no recovery on their projectiles, or giving another character a horizontal move with invincible startup that encourages turtling but the char ALSO has an anti-throw special throw that can be stored? :clap:

Seriously though I still don't think Fei would crack the top tier because strangely enough even with new broken-flavor Fei everyone else would still be even more broken

I never said Fei was top tier. If anything he's very low mid tier

[Ryu1999]

I never said Fei was top tier. If anything he's very low mid tier

That's not what I was implying at all. You think I (as an ST scrub) would try to misquote an ST expert? :xeye:

I was saying that even if Old and New Fei were combined with the best of both worlds, this new hybrid Fei would still not be "too strong" cause there's still worlds of broken in the original top tier chars but that's just my own uninformed guess :D

[Southtown'King]

Fei = Fei Long
Dic = Dictator. U.S. M. Bison/Japan Vega.
Claw = U.S. Vega/Japan Balrog

O and N mean? and do lets say Street Fighter II combos work in Super Turbo Like Street Fighter II ken d/Lk times 3 s.Hp =dizzy work if i pick Super Turbo Groove?

[Sexperienced.]

I was told that its possible to pull off more combos in SSF2 than in ST, is this true?

[NKI]

First post in this thread has been updated with terminology. Would someone please make sure I didn't make any mistakes...:confused:

O and N mean? and do lets say Street Fighter II combos work in Super Turbo Like Street Fighter II ken d/Lk times 3 s.Hp =dizzy work if i pick Super Turbo Groove?No, that won't work. The characters (as well as the game engines) changed a lot throughout the series.

I was told that its possible to pull off more combos in SSF2 than in ST, is this true?That's kind of vague, but no matter how you interpret it, it's still false. Overal, ST has more combos and bigger combos than SSF2, simply due to the fact that there are more moves.


-Nicholai!

[cricket_egg]

Okay, I could really use some Fei Long / Honda strats against T.Hawk, and as far as Fei I mean something other than repeated DP+short to build meter, and for Honda, it seems like his keepaway game just completely gets shut down by the dive, HEEElllp. ::strangles someone::

[Gen-An]

How is dive bothering your Honda? If I'm not mistaken jab headbutt should counter Hawk's dive cleanly.

[Mechanica]

I'm a total SF2 nublet, and sorry f this has been asked, but I'm not really sure what to search for if I search the thread:

What is it that makes certain versions so much better, for example, when playing Anniversary Edition? I get why CE bison is good, with his crossover psycho crusher and such, but why O. Sagat (is it O. Sagat that's the good one?) or CE Vega (claw) or Ken, or CE Guile (wtf is with CE being so good? :lol: ) and etc. etc.

Sorry if it's a stupid question. >__>

[Jappo]

O. Sagat has like literaly zero recovery time on his tiger shots, CE Claw, I'm gonna go and assume on his normal throws (the damage they do), and i'm not too sure on Ken and Guile (maybe Guile does rediculious amounts of damage on combos, as opposed to the later versions of Guile)

[JumpsuitJesse]

That's not what I was implying at all. You think I (as an ST scrub) would try to misquote an ST expert? :xeye:

I was saying that even if Old and New Fei were combined with the best of both worlds, this new hybrid Fei would still not be "too strong" cause there's still worlds of broken in the original top tier chars but that's just my own uninformed guess :D

Fei is like a short Zangief as far as his hit box is concerned. Couple that with an E.Honda like weakness against fireball traps...it just makes him fall to pieces. Characters that are naturally great turtles are so damn hard to beat with Fei. Guys like Honda, Guile, runaway Chun, Sagat...

But you are right. Fei would still suck in those kinds of matches. What ST needs is trip guard. I still say thats the only fat flaw of the game....that and damage :lame:

[Ryu1999]

Fei is like a short Zangief as far as his hit box is concerned. Couple that with an E.Honda like weakness against fireball traps...it just makes him fall to pieces. Characters that are naturally great turtles are so damn hard to beat with Fei. Guys like Honda, Guile, runaway Chun, Sagat...


Didn't NKI say that Chun-Li gets owned by chicken wing kick shenanigans?

[Jappo]

^ Cleanly. =(

[Mechanica]

O. Sagat has like literaly zero recovery time on his tiger shots, CE Claw, I'm gonna go and assume on his normal throws (the damage they do), and i'm not too sure on Ken and Guile (maybe Guile does rediculious amounts of damage on combos, as opposed to the later versions of Guile)
Yeahhhhh I just watched some of those EVO 3v3 matches to get some ideas, so much Sagat fireball spamming, I'm guessing that was O. Sagat because the recovery was really quick. Hahah, projectiles are so good in sf2. o_o

EDIT: That storing super thing with Chun Li is either really hard or doesn't work on the Xbox version. >_<

[TGC]

What's a good starting character in this game?

[margalis]

In CE Vega's throw does exactly 25% damage. Maybe it still does that much in AE? Then again, in CE Ken's throw does about 23% damage.

The moral of the story is, don't get thrown in CE.

[Mechanica]

Oh wow, I just checked in AE, 1/4th of your life is way too much for a throw, especially in SF2. XD

[JumpsuitJesse]

Didn't NKI say that Chun-Li gets owned by chicken wing kick shenanigans?


Right, but you have to catch her. That's the whole problem. Just like Hawk and Gief...they cant do shit unless they get IN.

It's funny how some characters dominate others yet totally DIE to low tier ones :xeye:

[Shag]

EDIT: That storing super thing with Chun Li is either really hard or doesn't work on the Xbox version. >_<

You have to hit the start button and then pick ST mode for Chun-Li and Honda to use the stored super trick in AE. I'm not sure if any other characters were altered this way.

Hit the start button and then pick super mode for "Old/Original" characters in ST fashion. You'll hear a tone for confirmation.

[Kyokuji]

Good starting character?

Honda, Ryu, Blanka Deejay, Bison (Vega).
That pretty much sums up 90% of the people I play online.

I play Dhalsim so it's annoying when I see people run straight to Honda when I pick him.

By the way, Cole, I don't suppose you have any strats for fighting classic 'rog (boxer)?
I saw Gian relying a lot on crouching MK, yoga fires, and crouching MP for anti-air.

[cricket_egg]

About jab headbutt for Honda, it's not that it doesn't work, it does in fact cleanly take it apart, it's just that the individual playing him I'm referring to has the tendancy to stop short in the dive, cr.jab,cr.jab, 360 grab = pain, or alternatively, mixup diving with jumpins into that same combo+grab. I find that Honda's Fierce makes a pretty decent anti-air, but I seem to keep falling for this...usually f+rh keeps Hawk from walking up and doing it but Hawk just seems to completely own the air, almost moreso than Claw. Any suggestions? Usually I can take the match if I pin him down with the two-hit fierce, walk up and return the command grab favor....

[Ryu1999]

Good starting character?

Honda, Ryu, Blanka Deejay, Bison (Vega).
That pretty much sums up 90% of the people I play online.

I play Dhalsim so it's annoying when I see people run straight to Honda when I pick him.

By the way, Cole, I don't suppose you have any strats for fighting classic 'rog (boxer)?
I saw Gian relying a lot on crouching MK, yoga fires, and crouching MP for anti-air.

Ryu is not as good a starting character as people'd think. He's not that safe like the other chars you listed

Best