Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house [Archive] - Page 3

Ryu1999

09-29-2005, 01:41 PM

Your telling me that Vega OWNS Hadu!!!.........ok whatever and me being a top player or not has nothing to do with what were talking about.
Especially saying that Vega owns Shotos in CVS2 is ridiculous and I dont want to go to off topic but your way off here. A3/CVS/CVS2/ST/SVC In all these games Vega has shoto problems. He does ok.....he can win but can also lose but on a consistent basis Vega will lose in the longrun. Your saying he owns shotos which is crazy.

Also I dont need to ask any WC player anything. I've played and had talks with Choi about Vega and Shotos in games if thats what your looking for.I've played Valle's shotos in CVS. Myself, Justin and Eddie Lee are the hardcore Vega players of EC and even from back in the day Eddie was never able to really beat WC with Vega in games its just the character. If you wanted a concrete statement then there you go.
Hey if you think Vega beats them and if ppl agree with you what can I say.....I guess I dont know what Im talking about then:rolleyes:

You have got to be shitting me.

Since you're the Vega player, tell me whats so hard about fighting Shotos. Fbs are useless against your char. Walldives retardation easily baits dps. Cr. strong/Slide shut down almost all Shoto normals. Where is this hard part of the fight? In CVS2, Vega's only weakness to shotos (crossups) is negated because that fucker can walk fast enough to dodge most of them.

I'm going to say it right now, even as a EC person, EC players currently don't know shit about ST or older SF games. First DSP trying to convince people that ST Vega is some technical masterpiece, and then you trying to tell us that CE Bison ISN'T broken when its general consensus that he is.

Maybe the reason that all these WC shotos beat EC vegas is because WC has played the game like 500 times longer than EC and knows the matchups a lot better. I'm sure if EC decided to steal some more Jap Vega knowledge and played for a little bit longer, the blatant mismatch would be much more apparent.

box

09-29-2005, 01:50 PM

About Vega vs Shotos in CvS2.

See Ricky Ortiz vs Dan in Evo 2k4.

archetype

09-29-2005, 01:55 PM

I don't know about the other games but I believe in ST that Vega doesn't outright "own" Shoto's. Ive played that match up and seen enough of it to know it can go either way. Its not like when ever ryu or ken attacks they will get shut down by a normal from vega most of the time or that they will get baited in to dping everytime vega wall dives. Nothing is that concrete.

JeRon

09-29-2005, 05:37 PM

You have got to be shitting me.

Since you're the Vega player, tell me whats so hard about fighting Shotos. Fbs are useless against your char. Walldives retardation easily baits dps. Cr. strong/Slide shut down almost all Shoto normals. Where is this hard part of the fight? In CVS2, Vega's only weakness to shotos (crossups) is negated because that fucker can walk fast enough to dodge most of them.

I'm going to say it right now, even as a EC person, EC players currently don't know shit about ST or older SF games. First DSP trying to convince people that ST Vega is some technical masterpiece, and then you trying to tell us that CE Bison ISN'T broken when its general consensus that he is.

Maybe the reason that all these WC shotos beat EC vegas is because WC has played the game like 500 times longer than EC and knows the matchups a lot better. I'm sure if EC decided to steal some more Jap Vega knowledge and played for a little bit longer, the blatant mismatch would be much more apparent.

To your first paragraph: sighs.....ok man whatever, its just that easy! Its free for Vega!:rolleyes:

To your second: Who are YOU to tell me what I do and dont know? Im 24 Guy, and I've been playing SF since WW came out so that was a dumb comment. Picking up Technicalities in games is second nature to me but whatever Im not going to get into all that but that comment holds no relevance to what were talking about.

To the third: Dunno what your getting at here and I can respond to that statement but I wont. Thats what you feel....hey more power to ya man!

I have nothing more to say about this!

Lates!

NKI

09-29-2005, 06:07 PM

Basic breakdown of all the Claw vs. Shoto matches I saw in Japan:

Shoto's fireballs get nullified by barrage of cr.Strong. Claw uses huge reach advantage to continue to poke the hell out of Shoto, beating every normal Shoto has. Shoto attempts and fails psychic DP, eats more damage. Shoto sees Claw doesn't have Flip Kicks charge, tries to jump at him, eats st.RH or jump straight up Fierce. More Claw zoning (read: complete ground control). Shoto gets baited by fake wall dive, whiffs DP, gets knocked down by cr.RH. Claw does wall dive shenanigans the rest of the round.

I would say that match is about 7-3 Claw. Shotos really have a tough time against his huge reach advantage and insane speed. And like all characters, Shotos get wrecked by wall dive shenanigans.

It's not a hopeless fight, but Claw clearly has everything in his favor. If anyone thinks Shotos can actually fight that match, I'd be interested to hear what you think they can do.

-Nicholai!
P.S.: I dunno why people always tend mention how long they've been playing, as if that determines how good you are or how much you know about a game. One month of world-class competition will produce a better player than 15 years of scrubby competition.

jaminbenjamin

09-29-2005, 06:13 PM

Losing to a high quality Ryu player doesn't mean that Vega doesn't have an incredible advantage in the fight. It means that you lost a severely mismatched fight and you suck.

Ryu1999

09-29-2005, 06:55 PM

jms

09-29-2005, 09:16 PM

Yes, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill with a matchup no one cares about! Let's at least discuss an important one, like....say, Cammy vs. Blanka. Who's first to weigh in?

Ouroborus

09-29-2005, 10:33 PM

It's not a hopeless fight, but Claw clearly has everything in his favor. If anyone thinks Shotos can actually fight that match, I'd be interested to hear what you think they can do.

ume shoryu! :bgrin:

but anyways, dont shotos sweep go over vegas c.mp? hurricane kicks seems to work okay to get in.

about sf2:ae:

you ranked ce claw vega as the best vega and i'm wondering why? i use ce vega but i think ST vega is better overall. it seems to me that the only thing ce vega has over ST vega is a much bigger throw range and his throws does an assload. (ce izuna drop does more than a SPD). and also maybe standing mp as anti air.

but ST vega has a much much much better wall dive, ce vegas claw dive doesnt even knock down on hit, and st vega's claw dive has a huge speed boost. st vega also has that flip kick which makes it even harder to get in on him. then theres the backflips, he has 2 of them. ce vega has one and its done with a back dash command, thus he loses his charge every time he does it although i think you still can charge in time after the backflip ends.

margalis

09-29-2005, 11:45 PM

Those Japanese players *love* their psychic DPs. I played AE at Sega World and a couple places around Shinjuku, everyone loves to throw out psychic DPs all the time. When I was at Sega World it was my first time playing on a Japanese controller and I literally could not do anything really, so my main strategy was wait for a player to miss a psychic DP and then sweep them. Not that that strategy really worked well, but it was surprisingly effective. (On the controllers I played on the only reliable special move I could do was sonic booms. No flash kicks, no fireballs, no DPs. It was pretty sad)

Anyway, Vega does prety well against Shotos. Fireballs become pretty worthless. Even if you do random DP against a low strong, you are too far away to try for a crossup, so you can't really take good avantage of it. The best bet is to corner Vega, that way you can hit him out of wall dives and Ryu can use his jumping strong to good effect, and it makes a bit easier to close space on him. But still not easy. And a strategy based on random short hurricanes is going to have pretty limited results.

As far as Blanka vs. Cammy goes... :) Pretty even match overall. Cammy is one of those characters that has very few easy matches, as is Blanka.

Sabin

09-30-2005, 06:31 AM

im no st expert, but i kinda agree with jeron here, don't all the highest lvl shoto players have "ume" like footsies and psychic dp's anyway? outside of all the specific matchup stuff, i don't think anyone here can deny that vega has probs with people that are psychic or take risks in any game (not just shotos)

but of course, i'd take nki's word for it, cause im only average at this game, and besides, he played the best st comp for about a year but damn...nick, im sure you saw this specific matchup a lot at more, didnt you?

EDIT: my question was answered above by NKI, doh :sad:

A-Dhalsim

09-30-2005, 12:04 PM

Ok, this Ryu vs Vega thing is funny. First off, on paper sure...Vega beats the living shit out of ryu...he can't do anything. You bring that shit into the playing field to a wise Ryu that knows how to fight vega well. First off, you don't throw fireballs. You have to sit there and wait for the window of opportunity just like how ryu fights dhalsim. One knock down is all ryu needs and he is on vega like fuckin white on rice. First off, if the vega dares mis time a cr. strong he is eating or forced to block a fast as hell red fireball. Ryu banks on catching the vega repeat certain poke patterns. He can pyschic uppercut all he wants, cause worst he is gonna take is a throw that he can tech or a low forward, strong combo. Ryu can't really do much but be patient. Its obviously not in his favor, but it can quickly change to his once he knocks vega down and starts doing cross up spin kick tricks and tic throws. Vega has to play on constant reaction the whole match, cause one slip up and ryu is fucking his day up. Ken in my opinion obviously has an easier time with the better air spin kick and an insane tic throw trap. You can never under estimate either though...it's not an easy win for vega at high level play.

J-Cole

nohoho

09-30-2005, 01:47 PM

Hameko ST Vid Roundup:

http://www.hameko.net/uploader/upload.php

Two hot matches:
hame_2234.lzh - Inoki (Ryu) vs. Mattsun (Ken)
Mattsun is one of the most entertaining ST players out there. Even a small dose like this is fun.
hame_2264.lzh - KenO(akaGian?)(Dhalsim) vs. YuuVega (MBison)

I think these are rips from the insanity DVD:
hame_2265.lzh - XMania Gaiden matches
hame_2273.lzh - Combo exhibition

Duck Strong

09-30-2005, 01:57 PM

Lol that first vid is NOT ST.

Eishi

09-30-2005, 02:09 PM

Great find, thanks ! Dic videos are so hard to come by...
Oh, and what the hell is that http://www.hameko.net/uploader/rd.php?get=hame_2163.lzh

Kyokuji

09-30-2005, 02:19 PM

I don't think anyone was saying that Vega can't be played with skill, but let's face it. You can random wall dive and mash C. MP all day and get a lot farther than you would with most chars.

As for 'Rog VS 'Sim. Headbutts can wreck 'sim's kicks and go through his fireballs. Also great for when he tries to poke you on wake up.
This'll make it so that he becomes hesitant to poke and this leaves you open to get some dash punches in.

Are you sure there's no such thing as throw priority NKI?
I remember reading in more than one place that Chun and Vega's throws beat out pretty much everyone elses at point blank. Like if both chars throw at the same time, their's will usually win, and from my own experience, I get thrown a lot more by those chars than I do when fighting say Ryu, or Guile.

Characters like Honda and Blanka catch me in throws because of their huge range, but Vega and Chun seem to get their's off because of something else.

nohoho

09-30-2005, 02:29 PM

Eishi:
Hacked version of the game?

Duck Strong:
Hacked version of the game?

I guess my game identification skills need some work, sorry.

Eishi

09-30-2005, 02:30 PM

There is no such thing as throw priority in ST. Chun and Vega walk very fast, that's why it's easier for them to surprise their opponents with a throw.

nohoho : yes it's obviously a hack, but I never saw/played that one

A-Dhalsim

09-30-2005, 02:35 PM

I believe there is throw priority. If Blanka, or Chun li jump whiff and land right next to you...about 80% of the time They are going to get their throw off. Blanka has the most priority on a throw then any char in the game. Thats why he is so hard to tick throw. In that paticular situation it is not determined by distance either...he just has the more dominate throw then say if ryu did it. You can reverse that situation and have ryu jump at blanka and try to land throw, blanak will still win. Blanka,Sim, Honda, Chun and gief (not counting spd) have dominate throws and great throw distance. I believe DJ is in there category as well. Vega,Shotos, bison , guile, cammy, fei in mid tier. Then come the rest of the cast like rog, t-hawk, sagat.

I base it on the difficulty on trying to reverse a tick and from just landing from a jump from a whiff attack and trying to throw.

Thats just with my opinion on ST throws through my experience.

J-Cole

Khiempossible

10-01-2005, 08:00 PM

If there's a question of throw priority existence, wouldn't it seem logical to test it? There's a very simple way of doing so and wouldn't someone have thought to do so by now?

Duck Strong

10-01-2005, 08:49 PM

go back a few pages

Spider-Dan

10-01-2005, 10:59 PM

Didn't NKI say that Chun-Li gets owned by chicken wing kick shenanigans?
I have found that Chun's jump up short stops chicken wing cold.

Ouroborus

10-01-2005, 11:21 PM

I don't think anyone was saying that Vega can't be played with skill, but let's face it. You can random wall dive and mash C. MP all day and get a lot farther than you would with most chars.

i find ryu to be even more easy to use than vega.

his fireball is fast, fat and has good recovery which makes it hard for most characters to escape its trap. since ST is one of the few games which a fireball is dominant, his fireballs are a threat long range and close

his knockdown game game is ultra buff

he has a move that negates pretty much everything with semi-risk (jab dp)

if that isnt enough, he has an invincible 50% move that has pretty much no risk, can be charged every 7 secs and comboed off his j.mp. (super fireball)

NKI

10-02-2005, 10:03 AM

I will test throw priority when I get home. I have tested this before (mapping both characters' input to one button so that they throw on the same frame), and it is always random, but I know what Cole is talking about. It does seem like Chun has a much easier time throwing peeps after she does a whiffed jumping normal, but I don't think that has anything to do with "throw priority". I think she might just have fewer landing frames than other characters (where "landing frames" = frames where she can't throw or block but she can be thrown). Again, I'm just speculating, so I'll actually test it when I get home. There's definitely some reason why it's easier for Chun than for other characters.

I have found that Chun's jump up short stops chicken wing cold.Yeah, she has plenty of ways to stop the initial Chicken Wing. Far st.RH, jump straight up Short, jump back Forward kick, etc. The problem is if you get knocked down once and you're anywhere near the corner, he can pretty much do [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] for the rest of the round. Chun has a few things she can do, but they are all super risky.

I dunno if I've ever talked about this in depth before, so here goes. This is the way it was explained to me by Tama...

Although it looks infinite, Fei can only do guaranteed [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] three times. Because he's slowly getting pushed back a tiny bit each rotation. After the third Chicken Wing, if he tries to go for another st.Fierce, you can actually throw him. He said that after the third Chicken Wing, it's a guessing game between Flame Kick (if he thinks you'll try to throw), or take a step forward, then start the [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] for another three reps. (Each rep is doing good block damage, mind you.)

I have never tested that to see if it's true or not. Tama is one of Japan's best players, so I trust him, but even top players have crazy theories sometimes (for example, "sac throw" in America, which is just a myth).

I said that there are a few things Chun can do once she's stuck in that trap. Her options are:

-upkicks: There is a crazy property of the Chicken Wing where you can actually stand block while holding D/B. You have to stand block the first hit of the Chicken Wing, then immediately hold D/B. Even though you're holding D/B, Chun will stand block the next hit of the Chicken Wing (which is necessary, because it's an overhead and can't be duck blocked). This allows you enough time to charge upkicks by the time the next Chicken Wing comes around. The problem with this is that even though the upkicks will beat Chicken Wing cleanly, sometimes it just goes straight through Fei, he lands, then you fall helplessly into [st.Fierce xx Rekka Ken x3]. :tdown:

-jump straight up RH: This will usually just trade (at least it gets him off you), but it is extremely hard to time, and if you time it wrong, you get juggled by 3 hits of Chicken Wing, then he gets to start the trap on you again as you get up.

-far st.RH: This will actually beat Chicken Wing cleanly. The problem is that it is quite hard to do (seemingly random), and if you mess up, you eat [3 hits of Chicken Wing, st.Fierce xx Rekka Ken x3], which is about 50%-60% damage and probably dizzy and probably peace out...HELLA not worth the risk.

-walk forward to go under him: This only works if he is doing the RH version of Chicken Wing. A good Fei Will do the Forward (medium) version so that you can't walk under it. This is why (as Tama said) he can only do it three times. You can do the RH version infinitely, but she can walk under at any time. Again, if you try to walk under him and he does the Forward (medium) version, you'll eat the above combo, probably be dizzied, and probably lose the round.

-Spinning Bird Kick: Because it's invincible, you can use SBK to make his Chicken Wing whiff. The problem is that because he recovers instantly from the Chicken Wing, he can simply cr.Jab you out of the SBK, then start the trap again. :sad:

I get the feeling I'm forgetting something...but that's all I can think of now.

I usually just try to reverse throw. A lot of times the Fei player won't get the timing perfect on the st.Fierce, so you can throw him. This is not guaranteed (Fei can do the st.Fierce for free if he times it right), but it works a lot of times. It's actually not all bad if you get hit by a Flame Kick while trying to reverse throw, because then the Fei player gets the idea "Oh, he tries to reverse throw...I can catch him with Flame Kick", and he'll try to do that every once in a while, which creates an opening for Chun if you block it.

But I can remember one round I played against Noguchi where he just kept doing [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing], and I kept thinking, "OK, now he's gonna go for Flame Kick...", so I didn't try anything, but he just kept doing [st.Fierce xx Chicken Wing] over and over and over...the Flame Kick never came, and I took like 50% block damage and died. That guy is too cheap...:sad:

-Nicholai!

margalis

10-02-2005, 03:44 PM

How is a sac throw a myth?

Walk up to Dhalsim, have him to a sliding low forward from right next to you, and hold towards and hit fierce - you'll get a throw 99% of the time.

nohoho

10-02-2005, 03:56 PM

I think NKI was talking specifically about sac throwing the chicken kick.

300ZX

10-02-2005, 03:59 PM

what is a sac throw??

Okame

10-02-2005, 04:06 PM

what is a sac throw??
Quoted for emphasis. I've never heard of this.

Nos99

10-02-2005, 04:40 PM

Sacrifice throw..

Really old term, commonly applied to Zangief in early days.. eg: "sac-spd". Take the hit, then throw them.

I dunno if it increases throw "priority" at all, but main use I see is

1) To get out of tick traps, like Sim's slide-noogie trap, I have read/heard people say it makes the ensuing throw easier to counter if you get hit by the slide instead of blocking it ..truth? No idea, and

2) Against jump-ins. These on the other hand, are more of an option thing. The idea is that you go for your early anti-air, which forces them to hit you high (or they get hit), and because they hit you high you recover earlier and can throw them when they land. eg: Ryu jumps, Zangief does lariat, Ryu punches him in the face (high), Zangief SPDs ryu when he lands.

polarity

10-02-2005, 05:25 PM

Hm, I seem to remember reading that there are a number of jumping moves and possibly other moves in SF2 that put you in more block stun than hit stun. If the jump in is early enough for them not to be able to combo, you'll be back to neutral faster if you take the hit, and thus can throw them earlier, possibly before they even go back to neutral, I guess. That's probably where the "sac throw" idea stems from.

edit: Seeing as I've only just picked up ST, here's an incredibly scrubby question; which move IS the Chicken Wing?

Chris F

10-02-2005, 05:26 PM

polarity

10-03-2005, 01:21 AM

caliagent#3

10-03-2005, 05:50 AM

Then the hit-stun must be longer in CE, because you can link after his cr.Forward in CE.

That definitely does not combo. :confused:

-Nicholai!

I've done it a few times, my friend actually has me doing it on tape. I'll see if he can find it to post

Chris F

10-03-2005, 09:39 AM

Ah well I guess it has nothing do do with anything except who gets drawn over the other. Oh and speaking of easy characters, how about Guile? He's ideal for learning the game with.

Duck Strong

10-03-2005, 10:04 AM

I'd say yes too Guile except he kinda sucks if you don't know what you're doing. Well that's just my opinion as a Guile player.

A-Dhalsim

10-03-2005, 10:36 AM

I never singled out Chun li as having an easier time to throw then everyone. I labled a few characters that have dominating throws in ST and can 'get away' with whiff jump , land throw. Blanka is clearly the best thrower in the game outside of Zangief SPD (but thats a command grab and doesnt count). Doesn't matter what kind of tick you try on blanka, if the player is aware of a throw coming he will have a very easy time reversing your throw. To me, when dominate throw characters cross you up and try to throw...its usually messing up your throw timing and this is why you get tossed. Basically hitting the button a bit to early cause you think they are on the ground..then they actually land and get the throw off right through your move. Its all mind games and comes down to just throwing off your opponants timing. Although Blanka,Chun, Dhalsim , Honda andDJ have a far easier time then the other cast.

As for the 'sac' throw (lol) ...taking the hit! In my old skool day i dont think i EVER heard this phrase so it must be a mid west or east coast thing. All we did was scream TAKE THE HIT!. That in itself is a very extreme mind game, cause oh how i love when players think they can take my low forward slide as dhalsim and think they can get an easy reverse. I have forever and a day to see the hit and link in a close forward or RH which will usually dizzy the opponant. Then follow up with a drill which most people block and then tick throw LOL. Taking the hit is very advanced and is such a major clutch decision in tournament play. It's almost like psychic DP...you HOPE they are trying to tick you so u can get the easier time to reverse. You also HOPE that they don't follow up with a combo and own your ass for letting yourself get hit from a meaty. Cause most ticks are meaty which can lead into a major damaging combo. In ST that means GG. All cause you wanted to take a hit from a dude tick throwing you all day.

J-Cole

Eishi

10-03-2005, 01:10 PM

What's the difference between Ryu's normal fireball and red fireball ? They seem to be the same in terms of startup, recovery, damage and speed so what's the deal ?

N-Trade

10-03-2005, 01:15 PM

What's the difference between Ryu's normal fireball and red fireball ? They seem to be the same in terms of startup, recovery, damage and speed so what's the deal ?

Red stuns from far and knocks down from close... so if u trade a fast red fb at close range with a poke u score a knockdown and gain momentum.

Not a Ryu player but I think this may only pertain to his fast (fierce) fb. I know for a fact that a slow fireball at point blank can stun but I think the fb has to be meaty.

Spider-Dan

10-03-2005, 03:05 PM

I remember something now... this might have something to do with throws done at the same time. You know how when both sprites are close to each other and overlapping, it's not random who overlaps whom, I think it has something to do with who made the last controller input or something. There's a default at the start of the round where one side always overlaps the other (like if you started the round both guys walking towards one another. Anyways I seem to remember that of you both tried to throw at the same exact time, the throw was given to either the guy in the foreground, or the guy in the background, I can't remember, it was a while back. But you can check it out, have the characters right up close and they'll switch who'd in front of each other when one guy moves the stick. I might be mistaken, I just remember my brother showing me this several years ago.
Read the thread foo!

As for the question of who gets priority on same frame throws, you will notice that when two characters overlap, one of them is "in front" and one of them is "in back." This is determined by the last character to perform an action (walking doesn't count, but ducking does).

This relationship controls who gets priority in same-frame throw attempts. I don't remember whether the person in front or in back gets the priority (it's basically useless trivia), but it is consistent.
Although, NKI said he tested it on ST and it didn't work. Maybe it's CPS1 only?

NKI

10-03-2005, 04:13 PM

I've done it a few times, my friend actually has me doing it on tape. I'll see if he can find it to postJust to make sure we're talking about the same thing: with Ryu, from point blank (not a meaty), you claim you can do [cr.Forward, cr.Forward] for a two-hit combo? Two crouching medium kicks...? :confused:

what is a sac throw??The only definition I've ever heard for "sac throw" is where the opponent is trying to tick throw you, and you take the hit (instead of blocking), because somehow this supposedly gives you advantage or makes it easier to reversal throw.

I think NKI was talking specifically about sac throwing the chicken kick.I was talking about sac throws in general being a myth.

How is a sac throw a myth?

Walk up to Dhalsim, have him to a sliding low forward from right next to you, and hold towards and hit fierce - you'll get a throw 99% of the time.You should get the throw 100% of the time, because you get a free throw on him if he does that. But whether the slide is blocked or hit, it doesn't matter - you get a free throw on him. Whether you take the hit or not, you are still in the same sitution: you have one frame (your last frame before neutral state--your reversal frame) where you can throw him but he can't throw you. Taking the hit ("sac throwing") gives you no advantage when the opponent is trying to tick throw.

I should clarify here what is meant by "block-stun", 'cause there may be some confusion. Just like during hit-stun, during block-stun you can not do anything (no normals, no specials, no throws, no jumping, etc) and you can not be thrown. After true block-stun is finished, you go into "pseudo block-stun" or "fake block-stun" where your character is still in guard animation, but none of the block-stun rules apply anymore. You can do moves, you can jump, you can be thrown, and you can throw. It's ambiguous because it looks the exact same as real block-stun, and there is no visual indication of when real block-stun ends and when fake block-stun begins.

To see an example of fake block-stun, have the opponent whiff Jabs while you hold back. This will cause you to go into guard animation. That is fake block-stun, because you can still do moves and be thrown during that animation.

So I think the reason why so many people believe in sac throwing is because you can visually see when hit-stun is over (your character immediately goes back to neutral state animation), but you can't see when block-stun is over...you just have to know the timing.

Hm, I seem to remember reading that there are a number of jumping moves and possibly other moves in SF2 that put you in more block stun than hit stun.Can you give any examples of that? The general rule for any move that doesn't knock down is that the hit-stun is one frame shorter than the block-stun. That one frame difference is negligible, which is why timing for reversals is the exact same whether you get hit or block (assuming Eishi is right and you have a 3-frame window for reversals). Even if Eishi is wrong and you truly only have one frame, the timing is still practically the exact same.

which move IS the Chicken Wing?Fei Long's crazy kick (done with a Tiger Knee command).

I never singled out Chun li as having an easier time to throw then everyone. I labled a few characters that have dominating throws in ST and can 'get away' with whiff jump , land throw.Right. The reason I just focused on Chun is because I've never seen anyone actually do [whiff j.normal, throw] with any character except Chun.

I did a little bit of testing, and I found some interesting things...

As I stated earlier, there is no such thing as throw priority on the ground. If both characters in neutral state both do a throw on the same frame, the result will be random, regardless of what character, what throw, who's overlapping who, etc. However, in the situation where a character has just landed after whiffing a j.normal, things work a little differently.

I didn't have time to do extensive testing, but I found out that there is such thing as landing throw priority:

Chun vs. Ken. Chun whiffs head stomp, then lands right in front of Ken (not a cross-up). Both Chun and Ken are able to throw each other on the same frame (the first frame she's on the ground), so there's no advantage there. However, if both characters do the throw on the same frame in that situation, Chun always wins. If you don't hit her out of the air, she gets a free throw.

Here's where it starts to get more complicated...
If Ken whiffs a j.normal and both try to throw, Chun still wins every time.
If Chun whiffs a j.normal against Sim, Chun still wins every time.
If Sim whiffs a j.normal against Chun, Sim wins every time...:confused:

So there is definitely some kind of landing throw priority going on, but I didn't have enough time to test it extensively.

-Nicholai!

caliagent#3

10-03-2005, 04:47 PM

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing: with Ryu, from point blank (not a meaty), you claim you can do [cr.Forward, cr.Forward] for a two-hit combo? Two crouching medium kicks...? :confused:

Yeah. point blank range, not meaty.

polarity

10-03-2005, 06:10 PM

Can you give any examples of that?

I haven't verified it personally, just theory based on what I read in jchensor's CvS2 systems guide:

Jumping attacks all have a universal amount of hit stun and block stun,
regardless of which character is doing them. Jumping moves all do more block
stun than hit stun, which harkens back to the SF2 days where "taking the hit
and throwing 'em" was a good strategy.

I have no idea how much Chen knows about SF2, though.

Ryu1999

10-03-2005, 06:36 PM

Yeah. point blank range, not meaty.

Umm......and not on CH? That sounds kinda suspect but who knows, some kid on Kalliera did cr. short x4->cr. rh as a combo with autofire :confused:

Jamerson

10-03-2005, 06:48 PM

Umm......and not on CH? That sounds kinda suspect but who knows, some kid on Kalliera did cr. short x4->cr. rh as a combo with autofire :confused:

There's alot of crazy links in ST (or SF2 in general) I keep hearing about/discover that I am no longer surprised by various links people use/come up with. I'm pretty sure the shorts -> cr. rh is something Ryu can normally do, but by the time I get to the 3rd hit I'm usually at max range for the roundhouse to connect.

So... anyone mind telling explaining exactly what the practicallity of Honda's command throw storage is? Is it mainly for when he's turtling so that if people try to walk->throw they get grabbed?

Duck Strong

10-03-2005, 10:26 PM

That cr.short to cr.roundhouse link works, but it's not exactly practical. I remember the computer using it all the time in the SNES version of Super. I tried it out myself and eventually got it to work although, iirc, it's pretty tight. And two cr. forwards won't link unless it's meaty either by way of meaty wakeup move or trip guard anti-air. My guess is that caliagent saw the later.

There are no A3 or CvS2 style "counter hits" in SF2 apart from maybe hitting WW Blanka out of ball.

As far as what James Chen's guide says about jump attacks all sharing the same block and stun frames, the recent frame data that was translated contradicts him so it's kinda up in the air.

Edit:

Re Margalis: Yeah that's a big part of my game with Guile against shotos. It's risky, but it works if done right and is often necessary to regain the upper hand. Then once you have them in the corner you can really start fucking with them.

margalis

10-03-2005, 10:26 PM

Sac throws work and have a place. For example if you are Guile, and you throw a sonic boom and Ken/Ryu jumps over it. If you do a low fierce and they do an early air attack they will at least trade or often stuff you low fierce. So instead you can just walk into the attack, take the hit and throw. They won't get a combo because they hit you too high. Technically I supposed this would work just as well if you walked forward then blocked on the last possible frame, but even then I'm not sure. As someone mentioned, block stun may be longer than hit stun in those cases. It certainly does feel that way to me.

That is when the people I know would sac throw, to sac throw jump-ins. Trying to sac throw a tick attempt is a pretty bad idea in general, for a variety of reasons.

polarity

10-04-2005, 03:11 AM

As far as what James Chen's guide says about jump attacks all sharing the same block and stun frames, the recent frame data that was translated contradicts him so it's kinda up in the air.

Only the part about jumping attacks doing more blockstun that hitstun was referring to SF2.

N-Trade

10-04-2005, 04:59 AM

So... anyone mind telling explaining exactly what the practicallity of Honda's command throw storage is? Is it mainly for when he's turtling so that if people try to walk->throw they get grabbed?

Tick throws

Against:
Block the first hit (be it jump kick, cr.short etc) and buffer the oochio motion holdin db. Then just rap on the punches so as soon as he attempts to throw u after one short, two or three etc u'll throw him first if in range.

For:
If ur the tick thrower u can do jump kick or cr.strong etc, buffer motion holdin db, rap on punches and u'll be throwin him on the first available frame he can be thrown thus makin it harder to reverse.

Nos99

10-04-2005, 07:06 AM

That is when the people I know would sac throw, to sac throw jump-ins. Trying to sac throw a tick attempt is a pretty bad idea in general, for a variety of reasons.

..and walking into a jump attack on purpose is a good idea?? :P I say you should at least throw out an attack to try and force them to hit you high. The risk of them attacking late is a pretty big one.. but if you *know*, well..

Duck Strong

10-04-2005, 07:29 AM

Lol, you kow that shit works dude. I go kamikaze on your asses all the time and it rarely bites me in the ass.

skankin garbage

10-04-2005, 10:42 AM

I have a question about the Anniversary Collection...is the game close enough to ST if you only use the ST and TNC versions of the characters? Whenever I find info about why this isn't a good ST port, the biggest reasons I hear are the problems with things like WW Guile and CE Bison...but what if you don't use any of those versions at all?

Nos99

10-04-2005, 11:19 AM

One BIG reason is that O.Sagat (a character often played in ST tourneys) is nerfed in AE.

Chris F

10-04-2005, 12:24 PM

O.K. Spider-Dan I'll read it before I post, lol.

I'll go with whatever NKI says, he's really on the mark with all these technical questions and it all makes sense. He's dispelling a lot of myths. Back in the older days there wasn't access to frame data and it was tougher to go frame by frame, and so on. We had to come up with crazy theories to explain things. I think the Japanese were way ahead when it comes to this stuff.

AE restricted to SUPERT and SUPER isn't a good ST clone. Yes, the O.Sagat players would have a real problem with it. In AE, you can't soften the old characters throws, where in ST you can soften them. Is that a good thing though? It's interesting.

Capcom threw the game (AE) together fairly quickly is seems, there wasn't much attention to detail. They probably thought they were weakening CE Bison, if you notice his psycho crusher doesn't have as many blocked hits as the original, but because of the extra gaps, it becomes a crossup.

It's not even a good HF clone, since the engine is different. in the real HF, Ken could low short, chain into standing fierce, then 2in1 into jab uppercut and this worked, as there was no bounce-off after the fierce. In AE, it uses the SSF2 and beyond engine and the uppercut whiffs because of the bounceoff.

jaminbenjamin

10-04-2005, 12:42 PM

Sac throwing is not a legitmate strategy. Its only use is to do something strange in an effort to make your opponent do something dumb (ie hit too high when jumping in etc) so that you can take advantage of their mistake.

NKI

10-04-2005, 02:14 PM

Yeah. point blank range, not meaty.Show me.

So... anyone mind telling explaining exactly what the practicallity of Honda's command throw storage is? Is it mainly for when he's turtling so that if people try to walk->throw they get grabbed?With Oicho stored, all you have to do is hold down/back (so you're safely blocking), and release punches (so that no move will whiff in case Oicho doesn't come out). For example:

Ryu has forced you to block something, and now you must guess between DP or throw. If you simply store Oicho, then release the punches at reversal time, you win no matter what Ryu does. If he went for the throw, you will throw him. If he did a DP, you will block safely. This also works when you are on the offense. Force the opponent to block something, then store Oicho and release the punches. The only thing they can do is counter throw you, but you should be safely out of their range unless it's Gief or Hawk (and you shouldn't be tick throwing those two anyway).

For example if you are Guile, and you throw a sonic boom and Ken/Ryu jumps over it. If you do a low fierce and they do an early air attack they will at least trade or often stuff you low fierce. So instead you can just walk into the attack, take the hit and throw.But there's no reason to take the hit when you could just block and still get a free throw...

I specifically remember someone old school (maybe Apoc? I don't remember) saying that with Boxer vs. Claw, if Boxer goes for [throw, walk under cr.Forward, throw), it's better for Claw to get hit than to block the cr.Forward, because it's "easier" to reverse if you get hit.

Yet no one has ever given any kind of evidence for how or why taking the hit makes it "easier" or gives you an "advantage" over blocking. You're in the same situation either way, so there's no reason to take that unnecessary damage.

(I don't know why you wouldn't just do the obvious: before the meaty cr.Forward, as you're landing, reversal throw Boxer. It's free.)

As someone mentioned, block stun may be longer than hit stun in those cases. It certainly does feel that way to me.As I said earlier, for every move I've ever tested, block-stun is a mear one frame longer, but that doesn't give you any kind of disadvantage. The reversal properties are still the same, and you still get a free throw.

Block the first hit (be it jump kick, cr.short etc) and buffer the oochio motion holdin db. Then just rap on the punches so as soon as he attempts to throw u after one short, two or three etc u'll throw him first if in range.You don't want to be hitting the punches, because if your opponent does an invinicble reversal (DP, Bull Charge, super, etc), you're going to get hit. Releasing the buttons is the way to go.

-Nicholai!

N-Trade

10-04-2005, 03:56 PM

I specifically remember someone old school (maybe Apoc? I don't remember) saying that with Boxer vs. Claw, if Boxer goes for [throw, walk under cr.Forward, throw), it's better for Claw to get hit than to block the cr.Forward, because it's "easier" to reverse if you get hit.

Yet no one has ever given any kind of evidence for how or why taking the hit makes it "easier" or gives you an "advantage" over blocking. You're in the same situation either way, so there's no reason to take that unnecessary damage.

(I don't know why you wouldn't just do the obvious: before the meaty cr.Forward, as you're landing, reversal throw Boxer. It's free.)

As I said earlier, for every move I've ever tested, block-stun is a mear one frame longer, but that doesn't give you any kind of disadvantage. The reversal properties are still the same, and you still get a free throw.

Yes, that was Apoc. He said that taking the hit throws off the person's timing. This fucked with my head as I'd always thought hitstun=blockstun so I asked him and he said that sometimes hitstun>blockstun and also vice versa. As for simply throwing before the cr.fwd, makes complete sense, perhaps the fwd is down outside of vega's throw range. Dunno if Apoc thought of this but for what it's worth he also stated in that thread:

There are times when Vega can actually land before Rog can get the forward fully extended and Vega gets a free throw. However, this is VERY rare. Although characters like Chun li can do this consistantly.

_________________________

You don't want to be hitting the punches, because if your opponent does an invinicble reversal (DP, Bull Charge, super, etc), you're going to get hit. Releasing the buttons is the way to go.

Doesn't this only apply to when ur ticking? Suppose someone's ticking u and they do cr.short and u let go but they do another cr.short u won't get the throw. Or do u hold 3 punches and release one at a time. Rapping the buttons can solve this problem but can't protect u from the mighty DP. Bleh, either way, I guess releasing is the way to go.

And now onto a totally unrelated note pls list the motions for:

Ryu's St.Fierce into Shinkuu and
Guile's cr.shortx3 into Super thanx :D

margalis

10-04-2005, 04:55 PM

As I said earlier, for every move I've ever tested, block-stun is a mear one frame longer, but that doesn't give you any kind of disadvantage. The reversal properties are still the same, and you still get a free throw.

Experience tells me that taking a jump kick and throwing is easier than blocking and throwing. There are a couple different reasons why that may be the case:

1: Block stun is longer than hit stun
2: Blocking an attack pushes you further back than getting hit
3: Holding towards and taking the hit puts you as close as possible, whereas holding back does not.

3 is a completely non-technical reason. If that is true, theoretically you could walk forward and then hold back on the frame you would be hit, and still get the sac throw just the same. I suspect 3 is actually the reason.

Eishi

10-04-2005, 05:00 PM

Guile's cr. short x 3 super is just a link. You just have to do the super as early as possible after the last cr. short (it's easier if you roll your fingers on the three kick buttons). This combo is fairly easy to do, you just have to get the timing down.

NKI

10-04-2005, 05:50 PM

Experience tells me that taking a jump kick and throwing is easier than blocking and throwing.I have never had a problem doing reversal throws out of block-stun. If taking the hit helps you, I dunno...I guess go for it, but I really think you're taking unnecessary damage. (Have you considered just practicing reversal throwing out of block-stun?)

pls list the motions for:

Ryu's St.Fierce into Shinkuu and
Guile's cr.shortx3 into Superst.Fierce xx Shinkuu is done as:
D, D/F, F, slight pause, neutral+Fierce, then as fast as possible do QCF+punch
You need to leave enough time between your first QCF and st.Fierce so that it doesn't register as a regular Hadouken, but you need to do the whole thing fast enough so that it registers as a super motion. It's pretty hard, and I wouldn't even bother practicing it or trying it in a real match. I say that even though I've been hit with [j.Fierce, st.Fierce xx Shinkuu] in a match...:confused:

Guile's cr. short x 3 super is just a link.For real? I knew he could link it off his cr.Strong, but I didn't know about linking off his cr.Short. I always did it as a kara cancel (done the same way as N.Ken's cr.Short->cr.Short xx Super).

-Nicholai!

jms

10-04-2005, 07:18 PM

Eishi is right, Guile's super can be linked from c. short...but it's hard!

About the whiff jump land throw thing--Bison has everyone beat. Whiffed jumping strongs that land you right behind your opponent lead to an almost guaranteed throw for Bison. Think I'm nuts? Try that bad boy out.

NKI

10-04-2005, 07:24 PM

Eishi is right, Guile's super can be linked from c. short...but it's hard!I had never heard about that before. Thanks for the info Eishi and jms. :tup:

About the whiff jump land throw thing--Bison has everyone beat. Whiffed jumping strongs that land you right behind your opponent lead to an almost guaranteed throw for Bison.Given what I found from the preliminary testing, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a 100% guaranteed throw, as Chun and Sim do.

-Nicholai!

Nos99

10-05-2005, 11:23 AM

About the whiff jump land throw thing--Bison has everyone beat. Whiffed jumping strongs that land you right behind your opponent lead to an almost guaranteed throw for Bison. Think I'm nuts? Try that bad boy out.

Is that why I always win the throw after that?? I thought it was maybe just my opponent messing up.. I told them to keep trying. I guess that was kinda evil of me. :)

Nice av.

Vintage

10-05-2005, 12:53 PM

O.K. Spider-Dan I'll read it before I post, lol.

AE restricted to SUPERT and SUPER isn't a good ST clone. Yes, the O.Sagat players would have a real problem with it. In AE, you can't soften the old characters throws, where in ST you can soften them. Is that a good thing though? It's interesting.

Capcom threw the game (AE) together fairly quickly is seems, there wasn't much attention to detail. They probably thought they were weakening CE Bison, if you notice his psycho crusher doesn't have as many blocked hits as the original, but because of the extra gaps, it becomes a crossup.

It's not even a good HF clone, since the engine is different. in the real HF, Ken could low short, chain into standing fierce, then 2in1 into jab uppercut and this worked, as there was no bounce-off after the fierce. In AE, it uses the SSF2 and beyond engine and the uppercut whiffs because of the bounceoff.

What if we just perceive AE is a good fix to the original SSF2? From a SSF2 perspective solely, AE seems pretty good because it actually allows you to play that mode with the speed it should have originally had. Sure, AE fails in the CE, HF, and ST department. But I think it pulled off SSF2 quite well, which is still old skool.

NKI

10-05-2005, 01:48 PM

I know it's been out for a while now, but I just played a decent number of matches on the PS2 version of AE for the first time, and that game feels all wrong. The speeds didn't seem to match (neither Turbo 2 nor Turbo 3 felt right); the in-game speed would randomly speed up (when someone gets hit by a fireball, when Claw does his super); the character sizes felt off, so ranges of moves were really foreign and had to be relearned...:confused:

Plus the silly stuff I already knew about like Claw not being able to do a simple wall dive consistently, O.Sagat being toned down, Ken/Sagat/Sim being able to do reversal super, etc.

Big thumbs down to AE on PS2. :tdown:

-Nicholai!
P.S.: I played the arcade version quite a lot in Japan, and it didn't have any of these problems.

Vintage

10-05-2005, 02:27 PM

Wow, you completely missed my post. I was referring to the SSF2 mode, not ST.

CigarBoB

10-05-2005, 02:40 PM

Cosign: Guile links super after cr.short.

NKI

10-05-2005, 04:33 PM

Wow, you completely missed my post. I was referring to the SSF2 mode, not ST.Sorry I didn't make it clearer--I was actually replying to this:I have a question about the Anniversary Collection...is the game close enough to ST if you only use the ST and TNC versions of the characters?Vintage - in regards to your post...honestly...who plays SSF2...? :confused:
Even assuming someone actually wanted to play SSF2, AE is not a good port for the applicable reasons I listed above (game doesn't slow down enough during fireball hit-stun, character sizes and move ranges are wrong).

-Nicholai!

skankin garbage

10-05-2005, 04:58 PM

Alright...well, what IS the best console version of ST, then? I've heard a lot of gripes about the PSX version...Is there a Saturn version? Does it require a ram cart? I'm really curious because I want badly to get back into this game, and since my 'sparring partner' doesn't like the game (how do you dislike ST :/), the chances of me playing it on his modded XBox very often is very, very slim.

Khiempossible

10-05-2005, 06:16 PM

NKI

10-05-2005, 06:25 PM

The problem is that no good home version of ST exists. The only way to go is emulation. There is a Saturn version (doesn't use the RAM cart)...it's not as awful as, say...the 3D0 version, but it has problems, just like every other home version. (Saturn version suffers from slowdown, and the characters are too fat, so spacing and ranges are all wrong.)

All you need to know is, all home versions of ST are garbage.

-Nicholai!

Ouroborus

10-05-2005, 06:26 PM

skankin garbage

10-05-2005, 06:57 PM

mmm...Well, I suppose I better get a gamepad, or something... :/ Oh well. Thanks anyways, guys!

NKI

10-05-2005, 08:07 PM

It was the American version.

What are the differences between the two versions?

-Nicholai!

Ouroborus

10-05-2005, 09:52 PM

Jappo

10-05-2005, 10:42 PM

NKI, ever thought of playing ST on Kaillera?

NKI

10-06-2005, 12:10 PM

I've never tried Kaillera mostly because I'm usually not at home, so I don't have time to sit down and play ST.

But how is it as far as lag?

-Nicholai!

Kyokuji

10-06-2005, 12:24 PM

Depends.
If you're under 80ms, it's actually very minimal.
The problem is, obviously that millisecond of lag is enough to make you whiff or mis-time sometimes.

I'll put it this way. It's not a definitive way to tell who's better than who, but you get a general idea of how good they are, and you can have a lot of fun matches.

There are also a couple of really good players on it like Afrolegend, Apoc, and DGV, and some of them, like DGV, are really consistent with their execution of 5 hitters and things like that, even with lag.
I'd love to take my 'sim (and shitty keyboard 'gief) against you for a couple matches.

I can help you get Mame32k and kaillera set up if you want.
Toss me a PM.

nothingxs

10-06-2005, 12:43 PM

Kind of laggy but depending on how close people are to you, definitely playable.

NKI

10-06-2005, 05:19 PM

Hrm...maybe I'll sit down and give it a shot if I get some free time. When do people usually play?

-Nicholai!

nohoho

10-06-2005, 05:34 PM

Grand Master Challenge Ranbat + Ken vs. Ryu Showdown Vids

-right click -> save as
-dl one at a time
-hameko(hosting site) = teh flakiness
-kuni using dj! (no vids of this, heh)

http://streetfighter.jugem.jp/?eid=38

x0925_1.wmv batayan(guile) vs. tsuji(balrog)
x0925_52.wmv shootingD(ryu) vs. aniken
x0925_40.wmv kusumondo(honda) vs. otochun

x0925_2.wmv morisagat vs. aniken

coming soon(right below that sagat ken link:)
three matches between aniken vs. shootingD (ken got beat 4-16 ;_;)

ToXY

10-06-2005, 09:57 PM

Sup NKI, nice thread you have got here... just one quick question ive got.
Bison charge d, u+p move i have trouble doing it sometimes, i can do other charge moves 100% fine but for bisons d, u + p or k, they seem to come out like 50%, so im just wondering what is the reason for this, ive heard 2 different explainations so far.
1 being that bison leaves the floor earlier so you need to press the p or k faster, and 2 that bisons d, u + p/k moves just require longer charge (although i dont understand that one because bisons scissor kick requires more charge than a psycho crusher afaik, yet i never mess up the scissor kick).
So i just thought id ask you since you know what your talking about :)

nevermind just tested for myself and it was because i wasnt charging long enough :P
must require even more charge than a scissor kick heh..

nohoho

10-06-2005, 10:20 PM

Dear ToXY,

Will you marry me? We could grow old together with our hands on each other's joystick practicing devil reverse motions. I could teach you how to give good head, stomping, and maybe we could even adopt a little Russian baby. Please say yes!

(btw: everyone on this thread is invited to the wedding ceremony of ToXY and nohoho!!! duck strong is the maid of honor!)

ToXY

10-06-2005, 10:44 PM

what was that all about...:confused:

300ZX

10-07-2005, 12:54 PM

i guess he was horny

Duck Strong

10-07-2005, 01:28 PM

Leave me out of your fucked up fantasies please.

afro21

10-11-2005, 10:51 AM

bump

Eishi

10-11-2005, 02:11 PM

In your opinion, what are the hardest match ups in the game ?

I personnally think that Guile has a really hard time against Blanka (mainly because of the slide that goes under the sonic booms) but also against Dhalsim (because of the far cr. mp, which goes under sonic booms and is relatively safe).

jaminbenjamin

10-11-2005, 02:25 PM

Does Guile have any fights that really go his way? Since WW, Guile has to pretty much play flawlessly to win consistently. Of coure he gets owned by Blanka, but who does he really pwn?

Duck Strong

10-11-2005, 02:54 PM

Off the top of my head, Guile "owns" Gief, T.Hawk, Fei Long and Honda. Imho his hardest matchups are O.Sagat, Sim and Vega. Blanka isn't THAT bad.

Magnifico

10-11-2005, 04:41 PM

guile vs gief is reaalllllllllllly easy...

Nos99

10-11-2005, 05:48 PM

Off the top of my head, Guile "owns" Gief, T.Hawk, Fei Long and Honda. Imho his hardest matchups are O.Sagat, Sim and Vega. Blanka isn't THAT bad.

I think T.Hawk has a chance. Gief too somwhat..

I alway thought Fei Long vs Gief was incredibly lopsided. Gief can't do shit.

Aren't a lot of Honda's matches really lopsided too? He gets owned (shotos) or owns them (Bison that doesn't know about jab crushaa)?

jms

10-11-2005, 07:42 PM

Blanka IS bad for Guile. He's at least as bad a fight as Vega.

If you don't have a down charge, Blanka can and should jump on you all day until you eat a combo or Blanka takes a bite. If you do sit on a down charge, Blanka needs to only sit himself down about 1.5-2 character lengths from Guile (just outside the range of c.fwd). From here, Blanka can react to anything Guile wants to do. Things are even worse for Guile if he tries to attack. Blanka sits down better than Guile.

If you want to win with Guile, you're basically betting that your damage from occasional flash kicks, normals, and sonic boom chip is greater than Blanka's damage from a whole lot of things, including jump-ins and throws that he gets for free. What does Guile get for free...? It's not good.

dogberry

10-11-2005, 10:24 PM

Guile does well against Cammy. Guile/Sagat is a hard fight, but Guile can win.
IMO his hardest fights are Blanka, Chun, Dhalsim and Rog. Vega is just about unwinnable.

nohoho

10-12-2005, 02:16 AM

Blanka vs. Balrog is tough. Dig the first video on acho (http://a-cho.com/index.html) today (scroll down to the bottom frame.) Poor komodablanka is reduced to horizontal rolling tricks.

Duck Strong

10-12-2005, 12:23 PM

Fine, it might be slightly in Blanka's favor, but it's not "fuck this shit, I'm not even gonna bother trying" hard.

NKI

10-12-2005, 02:30 PM

In your opinion, what are the hardest match ups in the game ?Chun vs. Gief is really bad for Gief...I have no idea what he can possibly do to get in...:confused:

Honda gets owned by pretty much every character with a fireball, but he owns pretty much every character without a fireball.

Sim vs. Hawk is pretty ugly...no idea what Hawk can do there...

Sim also owns up Boxer pretty bad. Yoga Fire, wait to see what Boxer does, punish with the appropriate limb, repeat.

-Nicholai!

Hunter D

10-12-2005, 03:06 PM

well for one thing, the default setting is really fuckin slow, like ssf2 slow and i dont know what is the right setting to match the japanese version of the game.

2 stars is still too slow, 3 stars seems a bit too fast.

then theres vega's wall dive. it seems wayy easier to do on the japanese version since in the american version, it comes out only when it wants to.
I agree.

They only character that I can play at Tourney level in ST is Vega. In AE he basically unusable because the wall dives and super only register like 40% of the time. Vega with out the air crossups=worthless.

We can only hope that capcom releases another arcade collection with arcade perfect ST and SFA3. I heard that the arcade collection they released recently has faithful ports of SF2-SF2T.

cricket_egg

10-12-2005, 03:23 PM

Sim vs. Hawk is pretty ugly...no idea what Hawk can do there...

Can't Hawk command grab / magic grab limb whiffs or slow frame limbs though? ....Maybe I'm just retarded, but I swear I remember seeing stuff like that....or maybe it's just Gief....

A-Dhalsim

10-12-2005, 03:24 PM

Sim also owns up Boxer pretty bad. Yoga Fire, wait to see what Boxer does, punish with the appropriate limb, repeat.

-Nicholai!

Hehe Gian and myself may make that fight look easy, but believe me it is no cake walk for Dhalsim. You ave to be very on point, and if Balrog gets super...the match immediately switches to 6/4 Rog. I think right now (dont know his name) but Gian is second to the craziest Balrog Japanese player you probably will ever see.

J-Cole

ps: Sim vs (american) boxer is 7/3 LOL =P

...oo and yes T.Hawk can't do shit to sim hehe

margalis

10-12-2005, 05:30 PM

Guile vs. Gief easy? Not really. Gief's low roundhouse trades or beats low forward, and if Guile ever loses his down charge Gief can jump in and set up all sorts of nasty stuff that keeps on going. Basically all Guile can do in this match is throw booms and try to low forward if Gief lariats through it. He can't poke with low forward normally at all. And if Gief mixes up his lariats and the distance/movement on them he can often catch Guile with a low roundhouse, at which point Guile is really in trouble.

Eishi

10-12-2005, 05:42 PM

I've had problems playing guile against honda, and only because of one move : the flying thingie. Honda can do small ones when he is far to dodge fireballs, then when he is closer he can do the flying move and land just in front of you, or on the top of your head. I tried countering this with normal moves (cr hp, cr mp, cr mk, cr hk, far standing mp) but none of these worked. Jump hk works very well, but you don't always have the time to do it. And I don't always have my flash kick charged, since I'm throwing sonic booms to keep honda away. I've seen a few japanese guile vs honda matches (kurahashi vs otochun for example) and honda never used the flying move, so I've concluded that this move isn't interesting in that match up. Still, I have a hard time dealing with it. Can someone explain what makes this match up very easy for guile ?

Vega with out the air crossups=worthless.

I don't think so. Vega has many other things going for him. And I agree with margalis, fighting zangief with guile is not that easy..

Kyokuji

10-12-2005, 07:51 PM

don't always have my flash kick charged, since I'm throwing sonic booms to keep honda away.

How do you not? You should be charging down back, not just back.
Or use charge buffering with medium kick if you don't want to look so predictable.

Hozanto

10-12-2005, 08:02 PM

No.1 rule for Guile:

ABC (Always Be Charging)

Duck Strong

10-12-2005, 08:31 PM

If you keep Gief out(which shouldn't be that hard if you know what you're doing) Guile has a pretty easy time. I will grant you things can get ugly once he gets in, but that's the case in most of Gief's matchups anyway. I agree you should only be tossing varying booms and maybe a stray sobat if you're expecting a trip. If he blocks the boom get him to block a cr.forward to push him back again and repeat. If Gief jumps the boom it's really not that hard to meet him in the air, his jump isn't that fast. There isn't much to that match, it's just really drawn out.

Eishi

10-13-2005, 03:27 AM

How do you not? You should be charging down back, not just back.

:rolleyes:

I do my sonic booms that way : charge down back, toward, down back +P... To do a sonic boom you have to press toward (pressing down toward doesn't work), which makes you lose your down charge. So when you throw a sonic boom, you have to take in consideration that you will not be able to use your flash kick right after it.

Duck Strong

10-13-2005, 08:53 AM

Just meet Honda in the air with Fierce, Roundhouse or backbreaker.

Hunter D

10-13-2005, 10:24 AM

I don't think so. Vega has many other things going for him. And I agree with margalis, fighting zangief with guile is not that easy..
Vega does have other things, but wall dives that give him the ability to confuse opponents is what makes him top. Without it Vega becomes more predictable because options are limited.

Echoes of PAIN

10-13-2005, 10:46 AM

This might be a FAQ but: how do you link supers in this game? say for example Guile's ---> d.lk,d.lk > Super. or like Boxer's d.lp,d.lp,d.lp > super? Any sort of trick or tip would be greatly appreciated. :tup:

Nos99

10-13-2005, 11:13 AM

Guile: d.LKx2, supermotion+LK~RH
Boxer: d.LPx3, supermotion+LP~HP

Magnifico

10-13-2005, 03:30 PM

And I agree with margalis, fighting zangief with guile is not that easy..

well, its easy for me :P. Guiles just always the one in control

Kyokuji

10-13-2005, 04:18 PM

I'm just sick of fighting Vega all the time.
Usually, I'll fight someone, they'll use Ryu or Ken the first match, lose to my Dhalsim, then realize that they can't beat me that way, so they run to Vega, and keep picking him until (and if) I switch guys.

NKI

10-13-2005, 05:17 PM

Guile: d.LKx2, supermotion+LK~RH
Boxer: d.LPx3, supermotion+LP~HPYou can also simply link Guile's super after the cr.Shorts:

charge down/back, cr.Short->cr.Short, half-circle from down/towards to up/back+kick

-Nicholai!

Saotome Kaneda

10-14-2005, 01:31 AM

You can also simply link Guile's super after the cr.Shorts:

charge down/back, cr.Short->cr.Short, half-circle from down/towards to up/back+kick

-Nicholai!
Just put instructions on linking ST supers in your sig so you don't have to type it out for the 40th time...=p

nohoho

10-14-2005, 06:00 PM

Hey NKI,

Do you think you could explain how you conducted your throw priority experiments a little bit? How does one find the precise frame that a character can throw/becomes throwable when landing from a jump?

Is it your (A-Dhalsim, too) hypothesis that each character has a different throw dominance factor when landing? Are there 33 different possible values for that factor? Could it be, instead, that characters like PsychoCrusher and Chun become able to perform a throw slightly before they become throwable when landing?

Some musing: aren't we really talking about _input_ priority as opposed to throw priority? Normal throws are just one example of an instant move where, in the event of a simultaneous 1p-2p input, the game has to pick one or the other. Command throws (SPD), instant attacks (blanka ball), and all sorts of invincible moves (teleport, dp, most supers) fit the bill, too. Having pinpointed the frame where chun can be thrown when landing for a jump what happens, say, if chun tries to throw and claw tries a KKK flip? What about simultaneous SPD vs that same flip? etc. etc.

AMinorThreat

10-15-2005, 10:55 PM

Hey NKI, how should I be fighting Vega(claw) with Chun? I seem to have alot of trouble with this matchup. Wall dives scare the hell out of me, the best I can think of is to anticipate and try for an airthrow but that rarely ever works... Any info would be much appreciated!:tup:

kainzero

10-16-2005, 12:29 AM

i'm trying to learn this game, picking up n.ken. what kind of trickery does he have after his kick throw? i was really confused cuz usually i do jump jab or jump short and either throw or combo, but sometimes i cross them up or something.

AMinorThreat: the best i can do is try to lightning kick the pokes, and if he's in the air go for jump, back+HP which usually gets a throw... i dunno, i'm not too good but that's how i THINK you're supposed to play him.

Khiempossible

10-16-2005, 08:25 AM

So I've been playing Guile pretty extensively. I have a few questions.

Guile vs. shoto:

My strategy is to sonic boom fireballs and then backfist, c.Fierce hurricane kicks, and avoid eating dragon punches. Yet I still get pushed back too much, probably due to the fact htat I have a hard time maintaining my charge while moving forwards (heck now that I think about it, b+Short is perfect for this situation)

Is this the proper strategy? Any input?

Guile pressure:

Jab sonic boom:
I always follow with a jump, followed by early j.roundhouse to combo with the boom or late j.forward for tick throw/low. If I'm not ticking (i.e vs. Zangief where I'll do early hit all the time) I'll do c.strong-> c.forward/cr.forwardx2/cr.roundhouse-> jab sonic boom repeat. I seem to only use fierce sonic booms when I get a dizzy and I'm on the opposite end of the screen. Is there any other options I should be aware of? Is this strategy the best one?

Guile vs. Chun/Blanka/character with dumb jumping normals.

Flashkicks short/forward/roundhouse lose out most of the time against these characters at best I'll get a trade, same with crouching fierce. And jump back roundhouse, seems to be incredibly ineffective. How do I beat their jump in? What's my best option? especially chun-li who's dumb landing throw beats out my attempts to reverse tick.

eddieW

10-16-2005, 09:45 AM

Hehe Gian and myself may make that fight look easy, but believe me it is no cake walk for Dhalsim. You ave to be very on point, and if Balrog gets super...the match immediately switches to 6/4 Rog. I think right now (dont know his name) but Gian is second to the craziest Balrog Japanese player you probably will ever see.

J-Cole

ps: Sim vs (american) boxer is 7/3 LOL =P

...oo and yes T.Hawk can't do shit to sim hehe

well im a rog and sim user and i know when im using rog vs sims fireball game.. rog can jump straight up using moving fp to dodge fireballs and if sim throws a limb it gets stuffed clean by the fp...:badboy:

Kyokuji

10-16-2005, 11:05 AM

My problem with most Vega players is that they're all over the place.
Most of them jump and poke like they're on crack, and it's hard for me to get back S. MK or back S. LP in, if I try to block their repeated jump in strings, they just run in and throw.

I've had a 'much' easier time with Vega players though, since I discovered that Dhalsim's overhead chop stops dives that are directly above you.

dogberry

10-16-2005, 01:08 PM

With Guile, sometimes you can also use backfist to snuff/trade with Ryu's fireball. Like if you made him block your low forward, you can do a backfist instead of sonic boom if u think he'll try to fireball you.

Don't always jump after a jab boom to close in. Shotos can DP through your boom to hit you if you try to jump in to close distance.

Against Chun, if u fire off a sonic boom and Chun jumps over it, try to walk under her and use close forward. The worst you'll do is trade and buy you a bit of time to setup another sonic boom.

NKI

10-16-2005, 01:29 PM

Do you think you could explain how you conducted your throw priority experiments a little bit?(This was done with an emulator, mind you.)

First I had Chun jump and whiff a normal, then save state right before she lands. From there, try to do a throw. If you don't get a throw, reload the state, advance one frame, then try again. Repeat (advancing one more frame each time) until you finally get a throw, and you've found the first frame that she can throw on. Remember that number and do the same thing again but with the opponent doing the throw, rather than Chun. Then you'll find the first frame that the opponent can throw Chun. This happens to be the same frame, so it's equal opportunity; however, if both Sim and Chun try to throw on that frame (the first one possible), Chun always wins.

Is it your (A-Dhalsim, too) hypothesis that each character has a different throw dominance factor when landing? Are there 33 different possible values for that factor?That's what it seems like so far, but one thing that I forgot to test is if this works for both 1P and 2P. Capcom games are notorious for being player-side biased (Alpha 3's infinites, MvC's dizzies, etc).

By the way, where did you get the number 33?

Could it be, instead, that characters like PsychoCrusher and Chun become able to perform a throw slightly before they become throwable when landing?I thought of that, and as I said, the first frame that Chun can throw is also the first frame that she can be thrown.

if chun tries to throw and claw tries a KKK flip? What about simultaneous SPD vs that same flip? etc. etc.Not sure because I haven't tested it, but if I had to guess, I'd say that the invincible moves beat throws done on the same frame.

Hey NKI, how should I be fighting Vega(claw) with Chun? I seem to have alot of trouble with this matchup. Wall dives scare the hell out of me, the best I can think of is to anticipate and try for an airthrow but that rarely ever works... Any info would be much appreciated!:tup:-Lightning legs will beat everything he has on the ground, but make sure you do it while charging D/B so that you can upkicks him when he jumps (which he will).
-Jump back Forward (medium kick) or jump back Fierce (sometimes gives you air throw) or jump straight up RH is what I use against wall dives. If you know he's going to fake you (wall dive, but hold back), make him land on a fireball.
-While you can use Lightning Legs to beat all his pokes, there's nothing wrong with blocking normals. They don't do damage, and Claw's super is pretty useless.
-D/F+RH shenanigans don't really work well on Claw because he can't be crossed up with it, and unless you do it 100% safely (which is kind of hard), he can flip kick you cleanly.
-cr.Forward will also beat some of Claw's pokes.

i'm trying to learn this game, picking up n.ken. what kind of trickery does he have after his kick throw? i was really confused cuz usually i do jump jab or jump short and either throw or combo, but sometimes i cross them up or something.Watch matches with M.Tsun. He has the best N.Ken ever. I'll upload some matches of his, but in the meantime go grab the ST vids from combovideos.com (http://www.combovideos.com) (XMANIA, Taikou). He's featured in some of those vids.

My strategy is to sonic boom fireballs and then backfist, c.Fierce hurricane kicks, and avoid eating dragon punches.That's the way to beat Shotos with Guile. :tup:

But I would not suggest jumping in after every Sonic Boom. That's only creating an opportunity for the opponent to hit you. If you just throw the Sonic Boom, then duck block, you're safe.

Guile vs. Chun/Blanka/character with dumb jumping normals.

Flashkicks short/forward/roundhouse lose out most of the time against these characters at best I'll get a trade, same with crouching fierce.You need to do your Flash Kick as late as possible. It will beat all of Chun's j.normals cleanly. Not too sure about Blanka.

especially chun-li who's dumb landing throw beats out my attempts to reverse tick.What exactly do you mean by this? If she tries to tick throw you, you get a free throw on her.

well im a rog and sim user and i know when im using rog vs sims fireball game.. rog can jump straight up using moving fp to dodge fireballs and if sim throws a limb it gets stuffed clean by the fp...:badboy:If Boxer does that, Sim can make him land on cr.Strong or cr.Fierce. :sad:

-Nicholai!

Toodles

10-16-2005, 01:36 PM

By the way, where did you get the number 33?
He's counting Akuma in there too. 16 old characters + 16 new characters + Akuma = 33

AMinorThreat

10-16-2005, 01:37 PM

In CvS2 moves like Lightning legs and Honda Slaps were a 5 button input, in ST what is the fastest way to input the move? I ussually just piano the buttons like it's cvs2 but it seems that it needs a little more inputs then 5. Thank you for the wall dive answers! :tup:

Nick T.

10-16-2005, 01:43 PM

Vega vs. Blanka as Vega.

I try to just pressure him on the ground with cr. strong and Rolling Claw into cr. strong. As soon as I jump Blanka can Blanka Ball across screen and Elec. When I block the Blanka Ball I couldn't slide after, maybe my timing? The other player?

The thing that I have a problem with is some of my options seem nullified because I jump, then Blanka can Ball out. If I Claw Dive, he can Ball out and mash Elec so I can hit him when I come down.

I'm thinking maybe I should keep him in the corner then apply pressure and charge flip kick when he jumps?

polarity

10-16-2005, 01:58 PM

AMinorThreat

10-16-2005, 02:31 PM

You can only hit one button. Personally I just double tab the button repeatedly.Well that makes alot of sense, thanks!

nohoho

10-16-2005, 03:37 PM

When I block the Blanka Ball I couldn't slide after, maybe my timing? The other player?

Try low strong or standing fierce. Sometimes you need to take a half step forward first. I think this is all easier if you block the ball standing instead of crouching.

The thing that I have a problem with is some of my options seem nullified because I jump, then Blanka can Ball out. If I Claw Dive, he can Ball out and mash Elec so I can hit him when I come down.

Yeah. Grab blanka out of the electricity with a wall dive and you get a smiley face sticker in your SSF2T lesson plan.

I'm thinking maybe I should keep him in the corner then apply pressure and charge flip kick when he jumps?

Bingo. Kill two birds with one stone here with max range slide kicks. (birds: 1)moving towards corner 2) chagring flip kick 2+1/2) beating electricity)

Nick T.

10-16-2005, 03:56 PM

Cool, thanks. :tup:

Khiempossible

10-16-2005, 07:11 PM

I believe Guile loses all the time to standing block Chun-li jump-in tick throw. Chun jumps in ticks with a j.normal then goes for a throw. I never win the revserse tick. Maybe I just suck at spamming fierce. That's what I mean. Also, is moving in with b+Short a good way to move forward while keeping charge with Guile? I never use it, I've never seen it done, but in my head right now it sounds so good.

NKI

10-16-2005, 07:52 PM

I believe Guile loses all the time to standing block Chun-li jump-in tick throw. Chun jumps in ticks with a j.normal then goes for a throw. I never win the revserse tick. Maybe I just suck at spamming fierce.I'm pretty sure that "spamming Fierce" is the problem here because mashing is not accurate at all. If you actually time it, you can learn to get reversals the majority of the time. There are Japanese players who can get it damn near every time. (See Kurahashi Guile, whose lifetime Reversal percentage has to be somewhere around 99.9999%.)

The reason is why mashing is so inaccurate is because when you mash, there are big gaps between when you're hitting the button. If you could look at it frame-by-frame, your input would basically looks like:
[Fierce][no input][no input][no input][Fierce][no input][no input][no input][no input][Fierce]

Those gaps of no input are when you're getting thrown. If you just time it so that you input Fierce on your reversal frame, you will get your guaranteed throw. It's just a matter of learning the timing for reversals. (Keep in mind that Guile can throw with Strong, too. Use both buttons, done one right after the other, so that you have two chances.)

Also, is moving in with b+Short a good way to move forward while keeping charge with Guile?Yes, it's good for positioning/zoning while keeping your charge and keeping the pressure on with Sonic Booms. If I played Guile, I'd use it. :tup:

Khiempossible

10-16-2005, 08:02 PM

Thanks NKI, you're the godsend of Street Fighter 2.

NKI

10-16-2005, 10:14 PM

As promised, juicy N.Ken matches from Japan: HERE!! (http://66.90.101.52/~gfb/NKI/More/)

They're old, but there are probably people who haven't seen them before.

Lumbro1

10-16-2005, 10:26 PM

Ryu1999

10-16-2005, 11:07 PM

nohoho

10-16-2005, 11:13 PM

I have a pretty general question.

Im pretty new to this game, coming from cvs2 and now playing sfac. Ive noticed that other than invincible specials, there is a severe lack of anti air for most characters.

I really really... really hate people jumping at me and not being able to stop it with a normal. Invincible specials aside, what character has the best one button anti air?

For every version of every char in sfac, ive seen no one button normal that can handle jump ins consistently.

Are you trying to play one handed or something? Well, that is, I don't mean any disrespect if you're missing a hand. Rock on with your bad self! Dhalsim's standing jab is the champagne of normal move air defense. Blanka fierce, Vega RH, Honda close fierce, OGuile RH, those are more like wine coolers. If you stretch your thumb and pinky out you might be able to do Balrog's crouch fierce, eh?

I guess this is meant to be used for RPGs but:
http://www.hori.jp/cgi-bin/products_detail.cgi?HPS-12

Maybe something like that would be useful for you? I think amazon.co.jp sells it (they ship international, btw.)

EDIT: While writing this I got distracted by this (http://www.hori.jp/products/pc/poring_mouse/index.html) on the hori site (wtf? heh) and ryu1999 beat me to the post, dammit.

Lumbro1

10-17-2005, 12:08 AM

Are you trying to play one handed or something?

Please do not make fun of my one handing playing style. Its to be feared. You hear me? Feared!!

Honestly though, when im playing gief or bison. or anyone without invincible air, its pretty infuriating to have to sit there blocking a bunch of retarded blanka jump ins. Oh well, i will just stick to homo shotos.

I thought ST was all about the no jumping? Im definatley not seeing it. This game is jumpers paradise when you're fighting chars without invincible anti-air.

ToXY

10-17-2005, 12:26 AM

sup NKI.. question for you.
you know the vega US claw roll after the blanka jumps over him and walks towards thing so he gets stuck on vega... is it only possible to do on blanka or anyone? also is it only in ST or is it in other games also.

ray78

10-17-2005, 12:43 AM

When playing as balrog how do some players keep there finger on all the kick buttons and still playing using the punch button then release the kick button.

nohoho

10-17-2005, 01:20 AM

This game is jumpers paradise when you're fighting chars without invincible anti-air.

http://www.streetmugen.com/mugen-us.html

I think it should be pretty easy to use this to make a custom version of ST with CVS2 Rock Howard in it. How about you standing roundhouse your way off this thread?

ToXY

10-17-2005, 01:59 AM

yeah i know this aint ST but playing bison (US) in sf2 hyper fighting is a pain in the ass against ppl who jump lots (especially vs shotos), i cant figure out anything to do, and i find s.lp is only useful sometimes, what else can he do?

AKA

10-17-2005, 02:59 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that Dic's air game was really stupidly retarded. If you notice they like to jump, start doing air-to-air j.SP(x3). I think he can get super after that too, (if you've got it...headstomps build meter hella fast, right?) general rule in that situation (for Ryu, Fei, Dic, etc) you can get any air-juggle move for up to 3 hits, then land and get 2 hits of super.

Anyway I'm sure Nick will straighten things up.

Eishi

10-17-2005, 04:50 AM

Dic's j. strong isn't that reliable. It can get stuffed by lots of things, depending on your positioning and the move you are trying to counter.

ToXY

10-17-2005, 07:58 AM

Im talking about hyper fighting not ST, hyper bison doesnt have the juggle j.mp.

Ryu1999

10-17-2005, 08:06 AM

Please do not make fun of my one handing playing style. Its to be feared. You hear me? Feared!!

Honestly though, when im playing gief or bison. or anyone without invincible air, its pretty infuriating to have to sit there blocking a bunch of retarded blanka jump ins. Oh well, i will just stick to homo shotos.

I thought ST was all about the no jumping? Im definatley not seeing it. This game is jumpers paradise when you're fighting chars without invincible anti-air.

Umm, Gief does have an invicible anti-air: the Lariat? The timing is pretty strict to stop the better jump-ins like Chun j. short/lk though.

Besides, Bison doesn't even NEED an anti-air. That motherfucker is way too mobile. Adding an anti-air would be totally superfluous. Just like with what happened with Vega, he should NOT have gottne the flipkick, but for whatever reason, he got one. That leaves only Bison (Dictator), Blanka and, Dhalshim (since vertical flame is not reliable) without a special-move anti-air in ST, so I don't know where your complaints come from.

Ryu: DP
Ken: DP
Honda: Headbutt
Gief: Lariat
Chun: Upkicks
Guile: Flash kick
Dee Jay: upkicks
Cammy: cannon spike
Vega: flip kick
Balrog (boxer): headbutt
Sagat: TU
Fei: Flame kick
T. Hawk: rising hawk.

That's like...I dunno, 80% of the cast?

Kyokuji

10-17-2005, 09:23 AM

Yeah, giving Vega the flip kick was a terrible idea.
He wasn't as bad back in the old CE days, but when you're playing at Turbo 3 on ST, and you're playing an especially aggressive Vega player, it's like trying to stop a madman on crack.

Standing jab with Zangeif is a good anti-air.

jaminbenjamin

10-17-2005, 01:51 PM

Zangief's lariat works like a DP against jumping characters 99% of the time, especially since you can hit 3 buttons while ducking.

Dictator's jumping straight up roundhouse has incredible priority, but jumping strong (ST version) is very good and very consistent as well.

FullMetalRoss

10-17-2005, 01:57 PM

Kyokuji

10-17-2005, 02:12 PM

Maybe you need to do it from a certain distance, or at a certain point in Guile's flash kick animation?

I know Chun Li's jumping SK gives me heaps of trouble when playing Dhalsim.
It beats my drill, and my anti air jab, and trades with the rest of my anti-air normals.

Khiempossible

10-17-2005, 02:54 PM

Someone told me blankas jumping lk beats flash kick but I can't get this to work. In what situtations does the lk win, because I tried it as a meaty jump in and that didn't work then I tried it with early jump lk that didn't work. Because if I ever play guiles from now on blanka is definetly my character of choice so once I have away to beat flash kick the game will be a lock.

I donno, I play Guile vs Blanka's and in many situations I've seen flashkicks lose to Blanka jump in. I believe it's early LK, as though in response to Guile flashkicking not anticipating him flashkicking. I couldn't say for sure though, cause I don't play the Blanka. I think Blanka's j.HK early will beat out flashkicks way to often. Lastly, I have no solution to Blanka's j.LK in corner. I can't charge for flash cause I have to stand block, I can't c.Fierce, I can't j.jab, I can't walk or I get hit and deal with blanka bites followup. I could swear it's an infinite frame trap, but then I may just suck.

Eishi

10-17-2005, 03:23 PM

As far as I know, the flash kick has invincible start up frames, so if you do it as late as possible, you should always counter blanka. As for the jump lk in the corner, you can try to escape with a back + lk, or try to counter with a close hp. I'll test that next time I have the occasion.

Southtown'King

10-17-2005, 03:29 PM

U Thoughts Good Sirs Ive Been Like Cruching 4 this local Super Turbo Turnny and out of
normal/Champ/Turbo/Super/S.Turbo....what "Groove" do u Recommend 4 Claw/D.C/Ryu?
sorry 4 the word Groove i stay on CVS2!

STK

Khiempossible

10-17-2005, 04:21 PM

What did you just say? I good sir, did not understand a single word. Let alone a concept.

Southtown'King

10-17-2005, 06:20 PM

O_O? in Super turbo what type should i be playing 4eg.. "Ken champ" i want 2 know about Claw and Ryu i think that the best bison is Championship edition is the best bison but what about Claw(Vega) and ryu?

nohoho

10-19-2005, 01:31 AM

O_O? in Super turbo what type should i be playing 4eg.. "Ken champ" i want 2 know about Claw and Ryu i think that the best bison is Championship edition is the best bison [is the best bison?] but what about Claw(Vega) and ryu?

Claw and Psycho were both discussed earlier in this thread. Superturbo Ryu is probably the way to go (good super) but the invincible HK in HF is dope. Isn't it all a matter of personal preference? More to the point: have you got the stones to use classic zangief?

Ken champ - that's what Eliza calls him when they're in the sack together

Speaking of Ken....
NKI/anybody - I have some more M.Tsun (I was calling him mattsun in earlier posts) movies - random crap from hameko. I'd like to share with the class but I have only limited upload ability. If anyone wants to host lemme know.

Southtown'King

10-19-2005, 11:52 AM

...thanks

Hermy

10-19-2005, 02:32 PM

Hey guys, this is my first post here cuz I'm in sort of a rut w/ST. Me and my 2 roommates have been playing for about 6 months on AE, and we all began as scrubs (although they both had played WW when it was out). Btw I'd like to point out that we're still scrubs:). Anyways, when we first started playing I happened to find the video of SBO2(?) where a T.Hawk player is playing the guile on Daigo's team (srry I don't know any other names) and he almost eek'd out a win. I since have become addicted to T.Hawk, because of how every match is close and his moves are devastating.

So anyways, moving past the story quickly, I was mocked for picking T.Hawk until over the summer I learned how to 360 throw well. I developed a sort of rythm which involved poke-poke-360throw (what I saw in videos). I have a timing on it that just "sounds" right to me when I do it. So this amazed my friends for a while, until one of them picked T.Hawk to try him out. I thought it would be no problem to beat him with my more experienced T.Hawk, but within some of the first rounds he was counter-slamming me whenever I jumped in with an aerial jab (a.k.a. "Nacho Snap" in our apt). All that he does is spin the joystick madly when I get anywhere near him, and no matter how I try to throw him his spin is faster than mine, and he wins the contest. I've tried to change my technique so that I do a Nacho Snap->quick360throw, but I only beat him to it 1/4 times. When he jumps in on me, I try to counter and similar results (him beating me) occur.

So, is there anything I can do to counter/punish his mad joystick rotation? Its pretty random, so sometimes if im out of range he'll jump and I get a free shot, but on the whole it seems to beat me a lot. I've been practicing the depressed button method and whatnot but it doesnt matter if he simply beats me to the throw every time! I need help:) Ty.

P.S. NKI I've been leeching off you in the #gamecombos room (Ty so much for hosting all those ST vids), and I was curious if there were any more 3on3 videos of your team, because I cant find some of them that are listed in the results and I wanna see some more Chikyuu T.Hawk. Thank you.

NKI

10-19-2005, 04:29 PM

UGH...sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread. Been getting owned by school lately...
!>_<

you know the vega US claw roll after the blanka jumps over him and walks towards thing so he gets stuck on vega... is it only possible to do on blanka or anyone?I am pretty sure it only works on Blanka. I remember trying it on a few other characters, and it didn't work.

also is it only in ST or is it in other games also.Not 100% sure, but I think it still works in CE/HF/SSF2.

When playing as balrog how do some players keep there finger on all the kick buttons and still playing using the punch button then release the kick button.When I used to play Boxer, I would hold all the kicks with the top of the palm of my hand, and use my index finger for Jab, my middle finger for Strong, and my ring finger for Fierce. (You actually hit the buttons with the underside of the first knuckle on your finger.) Pretty awkward at first, but really not that hard once you get used to it.

yeah i know this aint ST but playing bison (US) in sf2 hyper fighting is a pain in the ass against ppl who jump lots (especially vs shotos), i cant figure out anything to do, and i find s.lp is only useful sometimes, what else can he do?Jump straight up RH is really good in ST. It's probably just as good in HF.

Someone told me blankas jumping lk beats flash kick but I can't get this to work.I only know of one situation where that will work. If you cross-up Guile and do an early j.Short (at the peak of your jump), if Guile tries to Flash Kick, it will be backwards, and it will lose cleanly.

But you can't just randomly jump at Guile with Short and beat his Flash Kicks.

NKI/anybody - I have some more M.Tsun (I was calling him mattsun in earlier posts) movies - random crap from hameko. I'd like to share with the class but I have only limited upload ability. If anyone wants to host lemme know.I can host those. Is there anywhere you can put them temporarily (just for me to get them)? Or are they still on hameko?

By the way, when I saw him at tourneys, sometimes he would sign up as まっつん (mattsun) and sometimes he would sign up as M.つん (M.Tsun). I'm guessing they're both pronounced the same way, even though the Japs don't pronounce the letter 'M' as "ma".

All that he does is spin the joystick madly when I get anywhere near him, and no matter how I try to throw him his spin is faster than mine, and he wins the contest.Here's how it works:

-on his last frame of block-stun (or hit-stun), if you are next to him on the ground, he can throw you for free, but he must get the reversal
-after his reversal frame has passed, it just comes down to who times it better
-if you both do it on the same frame, the result is random

If he's able to simply "stir the soup" and mash out a counter-360, it sounds like you're just not timing your ticks tight enough. You just need to learn the exact timing (the earliest you can throw him), and nail it every time. If he's just spinning the stick and hitting buttons, he should almost never beat your throw (except for those rare occasions where he actually gets a random reversal).

I've been practicing the depressed button method and whatnot but it doesnt matter if he simply beats me to the throw every time!That technique is useless when your opponent is trying to reversal throw you. It is only useful when your opponent is trying to reversal attack you. (You can be thrown whether or not you're doing a normal move.)

I was curious if there were any more 3on3 videos of your team, because I cant find some of them that are listed in the results and I wanna see some more Chikyuu T.Hawk.I didn't encode all the matches, because not all of them were worth encoding. No disrespect to Chikyuu, he's a hella good player in other games, but he doesn't even really play ST, so I'd say look for some other Hawk players to study. (That guy in the SBO vid is probably the best Hawk in Japan, but I can't remember his name.)

After the team tourney, when I tried to give Chikyuu his 1/3rd of the winnings, in straight Japanese fashion, he refused to take it and said, "I didn't even do anything", (which isn't true - he peaced out Romedy and Painter). I countered him with straight American bluntness and just slapped the money right into his hand saying, "You did well."