Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

[Old School Kid]

Hey, me and my bro wondered where you went. Owell me and my brother Technical Money(doyle bros) still played against each other I guess ^_^. My brother wants to have chun li vs chun li matches against you. Do you know if when or where the ST matches spence recorded will be on the net?

[Gen-An]

I seriously doubt CE Bison can do anything vs Akuma/Gouki's air FB lockdown. And if he gets knocked down in the corner, the match is over. Red FB trap for free.

[taiji]

Hey, me and my bro wondered where you went. Owell me and my brother Technical Money(doyle bros) still played against each other I guess ^_^. My brother wants to have chun li vs chun li matches against you. Do you know if when or where the ST matches spence recorded will be on the net?

I asked him about it, he said he would try to give the tape to NKI at MWC, so he can encode them.

[Shag]

I asked him about it, he said he would try to give the tape to NKI at MWC, so he can encode them.

Spence has a plethora of tape footage that should be encoded. I'm planning in the near future of getting the footage out to the public. :cybot:


(with his permission of course) :wgrin:

[NKI]

Made a few updates on the Wiki. Added a section on stable strategies vs. shenanigans:
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Basic_Strategy

And added a few differences between the American and Japanese versions:
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Game_Versions

Hey, me and my bro wondered where you went.I'm really, really sorry about that. I thought we'd be back in NYC the next day, but we stayed in Jersey for the next two days. I should've gotten your phone number beforehand...:sad:

My brother wants to have chun li vs chun li matches against you.Okie dokie. Truth be told, I'm pretty scared of that match 'cause it can easily go either way. :confused:

Is Akuma still the dominant character in HSF2? With all the complaints about CE-Bison, I wonder how he fares against Akuma?CE Bison can't do his redizzy combo on Akuma, and CE Bison has no good way to get out of fireball traps.

If you're just talking about which character is better overall, I'd still say Akuma. CE Bison is really dirty, but he has some weaknesses (no reversal, no solid anti-air, etc). Akuma has no weaknesses...only dominating strengths.

[dialupsucky]

the roundhouse version should switch on all characters as long as there ducking and youve done a cross up before iirc. and the 632+k only works on some characters ducking.

[JumpsuitJesse]

I am still working on Fei VS strats. About another week and I should have most of them covered.

[brian]

Played the PS2 version of HSF2 the other day. I didn't know that CE Bison was actually nerfed from his original incarnation- most noticably, his fierce torpedo only does about 3 ticks of block damage instead of 5-6, and you dont seem to have frame advantage afterwards either. Is this true of the X-Box version too?

[ShinjiGohan]

While it doesn't do as much tick damage, its great as a cross up and is difficult to predict which way to block. If they guess wrong they're knocked down and you can repeat again and again.

[Phoenix Fury]

Played the PS2 version of HSF2 the other day. I didn't know that CE Bison was actually nerfed from his original incarnation- most noticably, his fierce torpedo only does about 3 ticks of block damage instead of 5-6, and you dont seem to have frame advantage afterwards either. Is this true of the X-Box version too?

I don't remember which thread I first heard about this, but, the CE characters in HSF2 are based on the last Japanese release of CE, which I don't think has a US counterpart. In it, Bison (dictator) has fewer block hits on his Psycho Crusher, and Vega (claw) rolls more than once if you use Strong or Fierce on his CB, T+P move. So I'd imagine it's the same for the Xbox version. Don't know if there were other changes to the CE characters in that version, but it would explain why some characters in CE mode are a little different and possibly closer to HF versions in HSF2.

[tataki]

chun can't store her super in the ps2 hsf2

[cygnus]

She can if you hold start while selecting ST mode.

[tataki]

cool... can u guys please stop using the jab, short, strong etc etc terms in the guide? it may appeal to the oldschool sf lovers but its really not noob friendly.
imo better stick to lp lk mp mk hp hk

[Tantin]

cool... can u guys please stop using the jab, short, strong etc etc terms in the guide? it may appeal to the oldschool sf lovers but its really not noob friendly.
imo better stick to lp lk mp mk hp hk

Well... It's hella easy to learn.

Jab<Strong<Fierce
Short<Forward<Roundhouse

Adapt or go play an MMO

[NKI]

There are two reasons why I don't like LP/MP/HP notation.

First of all, the buttons already have names which pretty much everyone knows and accepts. This is the set standard which has been in place since WW, and there is no reason to change it.

Secondly, it overlaps Mortal Kombat notation (LP = Low Punch, LK = Low Kick, HP = High Punch, HK = High Kick), which just makes it even more confusing for people like me who happen to also play MK.

It only six words...it really does not take much time at all to learn if you don't already know it.

Jab Strong Fierce
Short Forward Roundhouse

I think it's important that we all use the same notation, especially in the Wiki, for the sake of easy reading. It's not efficient when people have to stop to translate "D+QP" or "4123641236+punch".

[Khiempossible]

cool... can u guys please stop using the jab, short, strong etc etc terms in the guide? it may appeal to the oldschool sf lovers but its really not noob friendly.
imo better stick to lp lk mp mk hp hk

shut up scrub.

j/k

The terminology shouldn't be a big deal to learning. Go play more games or something, I can read numpad notation (47663214+HS) as easily as i can read old school SF notation (roundhouse hurricane kicks) as I can read 3s standard notation (c.LK c.LK c.LK qcfx2+K) or tekken notation (d+4,2:1+2) etc.

I honestly prefer the numpad directional notation, it's linguistically universal, works with every game except tekken and it makes unorthodox movements much easier to write and communicate. But honestly, just learn the style, as long as it's consistent don't complain.

[NKI]

OK, finally got around to writing Chun vs. Deejay:
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Chun-Li_%28ST%29#Vs._Dee_Jay

Feels like I forgot something, so let me know if you have any unanswered questions about that match.

[WB!]

Not sure if this is really important to the Chun Li vs Dee Jay matchup, but I have been able to stuff his cr. rh slide clean with her cr. lk. This is probably only important if the Dee Jay is whoring the slide though and if he is, then he's probably not a very good Dee Jay anyway.

[NKI]

When I play against a DeeJay who likes to slide, I stay just out of his range, let him whiff the slide, then do walk-up throw.

I suppose cr.Short would work too, but it won't do as much damage or leave you in as good a position.

[Footsy Bebop]

I just noticed alot of DeeJays like to basically stay planted and throw out alot of random strikes (i.e. crouch strong, crouch forward, crouch fierce)I would try to start up lightning legs for a DeeJay like this or make him eat a fireball.

Also isn't up close standing forward if done early a clean anti air against everyone?

One question for Chun. I noticed Ohnuki using this move quite a bit. He'd walk up just outside of footsy range, whiff one standing forward and do lightning legs. Is he using some special technique to get the lightning legs to come out so quick? Piano tapping? I've been trying it and it's pretty hard to get lightning legs to come out after only one whiffed standing forward.

[polarity]

I can do that. Just repeatedly tap the button with your first and middle finger. Even RH lightning legs can be done fairly easily with this.

[NKI]

Here's a strange glitch that happened at ECCXI. Flash (O.Sagat) got ROBBED, but he still won the round, so it's all good.

http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/O.Sagat.glitch.wmv

(I added Japanese subtitles because I also posted this on a Japanese forum.)

I would try to start up lightning legs for a DeeJay like this or make him eat a fireball.I tend to stay away from lightning legs in this match because DeeJay's RH upkicks beat it cleanly.

Also isn't up close standing forward if done early a clean anti air against everyone?It's decent against a lot of characters, but it's not clean like a Shoryuken.

[Footsy Bebop]

NKI, do you play xbox live SFAE? If you do, what's your gamertag?

[NKI]

I don't even own an XBox...:sad:

[bk2099]

on the topic of DeeJay, i really hate fighting him (cpu)
freakin machine gun punch that does 80% damage, unfair priority on his normals but most of all, i hate that he's smiling all the time, even when he's getting hit :rofl:

[tataki]

ok first of all u guys need to chill...

when i said it's not noob friendly why did people assume i have a problem *myself* with the notation and i'm bitching cuz of that?

maybe SRKers here have no problem but its still really a pain for newcomers. doesn't matter that it's been there since WW cuz not all the people the wiki is for have played SF in the past (or atleast knew those notations).
and theres also the fact that those words never made any sense anyways.."strong"?
i'll say this again: i'm not talking about myself here but about newcomers to SF, and imo it's already hard for them to get into the game seriously so there's no reason to make it even harder.

[Kyokuji]

Oh give me a break.
If you can't memorize the notation for 6 lousy buttons, then you're never gonna get anywhere playing the game anyway.

I never used the RH/FK notation, but it took me all of 3 seconds to figure it out when I heard someone else use it.
And only a math major could think that using numbers to represent directions/buttons is somehow less confusing to the average person.

[felineki]

on the topic of DeeJay, i really hate fighting him (cpu)
freakin machine gun punch that does 80% damage, unfair priority on his normals but most of all, i hate that he's smiling all the time, even when he's getting hit :rofl:To be fair, he doesn't smile during his upkicks. He's got a big goofy frown/grimace instead. Just one of the ways that the sprites that were newly-added for Super Turbo stick out from the rest (maybe they were done by a new/different artist?). Look at Honda's command throw for the best example of this... drawn in a completely different style from the rest of his spriteset.

And that's a weird glitch with Sagat's fireball! I've tried to replicate it in Kawaks, but haven't had any luck yet. I have a strange suspicion this might have to do with the frame-skipping I mentioned a while back.

[NKI]

New data, fresh from The T.Akiba Laboratory!!

(Note that I've only translated T.Akiba's post, and not the replies below it.)

Original Japanese thread:
http://bbs.t-akiba.net/sf2/bbs.cgi?tree=r9608#9608

Investigating Character Stamina: The Damage of Moves

First round of the match; 2P Ryu with full life does a st.Fierce to 1P Ryu who also has full life; tested 100 times.

Damage...Iteration #
....22............1....
....23............3....
....24............68....
....25............7....
....26............13....
....27............8....

First round of the match, 2P Ryu with zero life left does a st.Fierce to 1P Ryu who has full life; tested 100 times.

Damage...Iteration #
....22............8....
....23............2....
....24............51....
....25............8....
....26............11....
....27............20....

I was thinking that maybe it would do 28 or more, but it never did. Also, I have no idea why it is doing more than 22 points of damage.

Ugh...100 times...I'm pooped. :wasted:

[Kyokuji]

Honda's command throw mix-ups in the corner are killing me.
I usually try to 'port out quickly, but half the time I either end up in the exact same spot, or I can't get it off in-time.

[Saotome Kaneda]

Honda's command throw mix-ups in the corner are killing me.
I usually try to 'port out quickly, but half the time I either end up in the exact same spot, or I can't get it off in-time.
How did Honda get that close? lol And is this for ST or HSF? in HSF the 'port problem should be "fixed". =x

[Duck Strong]

ok first of all u guys need to chill...

when i said it's not noob friendly why did people assume i have a problem *myself* with the notation and i'm bitching cuz of that?

maybe SRKers here have no problem but its still really a pain for newcomers. doesn't matter that it's been there since WW cuz not all the people the wiki is for have played SF in the past (or atleast knew those notations).
and theres also the fact that those words never made any sense anyways.."strong"?
i'll say this again: i'm not talking about myself here but about newcomers to SF, and imo it's already hard for them to get into the game seriously so there's no reason to make it even harder.

I don't think it matters whether the terminology ever made any sense. It was adopted by the people who cared about the franchise and has become part of the whole sf folklore. Changing it now that sf is basically dead would just be pointless and counter-productive. I can give other examples of people clinging to impractical things for the sake of convention/tradition. The US still uses the Imperial system and even the British have long abandoned it. Electrical circuit diagrams have the current going the wrong. The Engrish terminology is part of what gives sf its charm.

And it's not THAT difficult to learn 6 terms.

[Footsy Bebop]

Anyone have any KomodaBlanka vids? I love watching that guy play, he actually makes ST Blanka look like a decent character.

[bk2099]

Honda's command throw mix-ups in the corner are killing me.
I usually try to 'port out quickly, but half the time I either end up in the exact same spot, or I can't get it off in-time.

i hate fighting honda too, honda vs dhalsim is a hard matchup for sim in my experience

all that fat surrounding honda's body softens the blows whereas dhalsim is just skin and bones so when they trade hits you know who always wins...

and that flying headbutt seems like it was designed purposely to punish dhalsim's slow moving high arc jump

and of course honda's always got that chip damage cheesiness to rely on with his hundred hands slap that does crazy damage if you dont block it

the most frustrating part about losing to honda is that he's probably one of the easiest characters to learn in the game and dhalsim is the hardest (just look at the number of moves he has)

[Footsy Bebop]

Dhalsim v. Honda

Well obviously your first objective is to just keep him away. Use your fireballs wisely, mixing up slow, medium and fast fireballs, and try to make him land on them. If Honda does his flash kick move over the fireball, I like hitting him on the way down with standing roundhouse or you can use standing fierce, but that can be trickier because if you mistime it he will hit your arms clean. Timings a little easier with roundhouse. If he jumps over the fireball, it kind of depends on which attack he uses. If he uses the forward kick splash or short kick butt, it hits down, so you can either use standing kicks or jump back and fierce in the air. Jump back fierce in the air should hit it clean, but standing kicks might trade. If you don't want to trade, just wait till he lands then hit him with low strong, standing fierce to push him back into the corner for more fireballs. Any other jump attack, try to him hit him low with low strong or low fierce followed up by a standing fierce or a fierce fireball to push him away.

Sliding against Honda as an anti air is highly unadvisable unless you see him jumping with Fierce or Jab, I think roundhouse too, but Honda's jump forward splash will hit the slide clean and then he can combo off of that so, the slide as anti-air is a high risk maneuver against Honda.

If timed correctly, Dhalsim's drill can cleanly beat Honda's headbutt. If you're drilling from full screen away make sure to use the short drill. However, for the most part, you should not be drilling from full screen because you want to keep him away.

Also Dhalsim has a really good cornertrap against Honda. If you knock him down in the corner, with the proper spacing you can keep doing jab yoga flames on him, over and over. I saw Gian do this in that 3 on 3 video and it works quite well.

I think Dhalsim's biggest problem with Honda is if Honda gets in a range where he can continue to do his flash kick maneuver. If you see it coming way ahead of time you can do the upwards yoga flame. But if you don't have time for that your best bet is to teleport out. Once again creating a good amount of distance between you two. Another tactic you might try is to short or forward slide out, but this gets tricky. Honda's flash kick maneuver has some weird cross up properties which can get you walking, sliding or blocking the wrong way.

About Honda's tick throw, I think Dhalsim's strong noogie has about the same distance so you should be able to noogie your way out of any tick throw traps.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Good luck.

[bk2099]

when talking about strategy, people usually leave out the most important part of the round, where most matches are decided... the very beginning after the announcer says "fight!" (get the edge here and you can make your opponent come to you)

in a dhalsim vs honda match, it seems that theres really nothing safe that sim can do to open the round against honda

fireball gets beat by butt slam
jump gets beat by flying headbutt
drills get blocked and punished
pokes trade and lose
turtle and get chipped by a flying headbutt

what can dhalsim do to gain an advantage

[laugh]

when talking about strategy, people usually leave out the most important part of the round, where most matches are decided... the very beginning after the announcer says "fight!" (get the edge here and you can make your opponent come to you)

in a dhalsim vs honda match, it seems that theres really nothing safe that sim can do to open the round against honda

fireball gets beat by butt slam
jump gets beat by flying headbutt
drills get blocked and punished
pokes trade and lose
turtle and get chipped by a flying headbutt

what can dhalsim do to gain an advantage
Jump back and react.

[Saotome Kaneda]

Jump back and react.
co-sign. Jumping back is probably the best thing Sim can do at the beginning of any match against anyone. =p

If Honda does anything at that point you can react with whatever:
buttslam gets beat by jumpback fierce
jumping anything gets beat by jumpback fierce/roundhouse
delayed headbutts get beat by drill
and waiting there means you just got where you need to be to make his life hell

[fatboy]

Dhalsim v. Honda

About Honda's tick throw, I think Dhalsim's strong noogie has about the same distance so you should be able to noogie your way out of any tick throw traps.

Good luck.

Not sure if that is true.

Not trying to flame, just another perspective.

According the the throw data on NKI's translation page:

Honda's special throw range on Dhalsim is 104 pixles.
Dhalsim's throw range on Honda is 92 pixles.

It seems that Honda would have the advantage when throwing.

In my own experience: When I play Dhalsim versus Honda, Honda ALWAYS out throws me..... Which seems to go with the throw data.

BUT I COULD BE WRONG.... WOULD NOT BE THE FRIST TIME.

[Footsy Bebop]

oh I didn't know about frame data, I just know that if you try that command throw on the computer dhalsim, he just seems to throw out of it everytime.

[Dasrik]

It's the computer. It has super powers.

[solidfox]

It's the computer. It has super powers.
LOL So True.

[FallingEdge]

Excuse my extreme n00bness, but how do you pick O.Sagat or any O.characters in ST?

Thanks :lovin:

[NKI]

It's the computer. It has super powers.You know, at one point I was seriously considering making a vid of all the impossible stuff that the computer does, like walk towards Psycho Crusher, 100% damage throws with Sim and Gief, canceling Fei's Overhead into mid-air Rekka Ken, 40% damage Typhoon from T.Hawk, etc.

In the end I decided against it because it would just take too damn long waiting around for the computer to do all that stuff...

Excuse my extreme n00bness, but how do you pick O.Sagat or any O.characters in ST?See the Super Turbo Wiki:
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#The_Characters

[Desk]

You know, at one point I was seriously considering making a vid of all the impossible stuff that the computer does, like walk towards Psycho Crusher, 100% damage throws with Sim and Gief, canceling Fei's Overhead into mid-air Rekka Ken, 40% damage Typhoon from T.Hawk, etc.


Someone should definately do that!:rofl: Seriously though I would love to see a vid like that. Maybe if lots of people chipped in bits of footage it would be possible? I don't know, it's an awesome idea though.

Does the random damage thing apply to the cpu aswell? I've noticed being hit with 2 hit combo's and seemingly losing like 50-60%

[ParryPerson.]

Excuse my extreme n00bness, but how do you pick O.Sagat or any O.characters in ST?

Thanks :lovin:

You should really search instead of asking first. pick him. then hit up down down up jab during the time between you picked him and the plane ends flying.

[Saotome Kaneda]

Someone should definately do that!:rofl: Seriously though I would love to see a vid like that. Maybe if lots of people chipped in bits of footage it would be possible? I don't know, it's an awesome idea though.

Does the random damage thing apply to the cpu aswell? I've noticed being hit with 2 hit combo's and seemingly losing like 50-60%
Haha, or Blanka getting 100% bites even against countermashing. =p

[Footsy Bebop]

I know the computer does alot of things that are out of line, like doing charge moves without charging. But I've never seen it do anything to indicate that it can alter throwing distances. In fact if you use Dhalsim against the computer, you can still do the same throw/noogie techniques on the computer. So I think the throwing distances are kind of set. Thus my argument that Dhalsim can reverse Honda's command throw because CPU Dhalsim does it, still holds some water.

[Kyokuji]

NKI, 'Sim's jump back :hp: doesn't work against Chun's jumping :lk:/:mk:.
It gets stuffed. Everything I try to throw out gets stuffed, lol.

I don't have too much trouble with the good Chun's, it's the random "Jump LK > Tick Throw" spammers that I'm having problems with.
O. Sagat jumping :hk: spammers as well.
Hell, that's my problem in general. I don't have issues zoning people who know what to expect, but I end up losing a lot to "shenanigans" as someone else put it.

Hoppy/Throw/MP happy Vegas
Throw/Sumo stomp happy Hondas
Scissor kick happy Bisons
Slide happy Deejays
:d::hp:/Jumping :mk: happy Feilongs
Etc.

It feels like all the progress I've made in the game amounts to nothing when I get beaten by stuff like that.
Hell, I had a Bison player trap me in the corner while spamming LK and throws. Nothing I tried seemed to do anything.

just wait till he lands then hit him with low strong, standing fierce to push him back into the corner for more fireballs.

My problem is when he does it so he lands a few feet away from me. If I try to do anything after he lands, I get command thrown. Goddamn thing has gigantic range.

[NKI]

NKI, 'Sim's jump back :hp: doesn't work against Chun's jumping :lk:/:mk:.
It gets stuffed. Everything I try to throw out gets stuffed, lol.

Just for you:
How to beat Chun's j.Short with Sim (http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/NKI-Sim.anti-air.vs.Chun.j.Short.wmv)
(Right Click -> Save Target As...)

As for her j.Forward, Sim does not have a solid anti-air, aside from super.

Hoppy/Throw/MP happy VegasSorry, I don't know this match. :sad:

Throw/Sumo stomp happy HondasAs mentioned earlier, you need to zone him hard with Yoga Fires and limbs. I don't know this match very well to give you specifics, but he should never get closer than half screen.

Scissor kick happy BisonsJust block, then take your free noogie. Follow up with meaty RH drill, noogie, repeat until death (unless Dic has super).

Slide happy DeejaysI don't know this match either. :sad:

:d::hp:/Jumping :mk: happy FeilongsSame as Honda, you should be zoning him hard. Sim has TONS of anti airs, so just try all of them. Off the top of my head, I don't know what will beat Fei's j.Forward, but just go down the list until you find it:
close cr.Jab
close st.Jab
slides
close st.Short
close st.Forward
etc...

Hell, I had a Bison player trap me in the corner while spamming LK and throws.Throw him first. You have both the frame advantage and the range advantage.

[Best Kind Boxer]

If Dic can link s.shorts, doesn't he have advantage? Or is it different on block?

[ShinjiGohan]

I'm not sure about ST, but in EX theres typically a 3 frame difference between block and hit stun where block recovers first.

Besides that, you can't be thrown while in hit or block stun, so they're going to have to wait for you to recover before they can throw you anyway.

[NKI]

Depending on the character, Dic can only link a max 3 or 4 st.Shorts which are inescapable (read: they will combo). After that, he has to start taking a step towards you between st.Shorts, and that's when you can throw him. And like ShinjiGohan said, he has to wait for you to come out of block-stun first before he can throw you, so you have the advantage of reversal throw.

I haven't tested it thoroughly, but hit-stun and block-stun seem to be the exact same length in ST. If they differ, it's only by one frame.

[bk2099]

all i know about the dhalsim vs chun li matchup is that

a: jump back strong beats chun's j.short clean if sim is higher up in the air than her
b: standing roundhouse beats lightning legs clean if timed right
c: crossup forward slide + back fierce on a jumping chun = dizzy, follow that with a super and chun is in big trouble

[SaveFighting]

I'm a SF2 newb ;) so give me some advice.

CE or HF Guile:

Just before your oponent is about to get up you sonic boom most of the time they will block so you simply walk up and throw. Now, what would be the best way to counter this? Simply just take the hit if need be? Or, try to throw yourself since some characters have faster throws right.

[Best Kind Boxer]

The usual counter-throw option. Reversal special move with invincibility, or counterthrow.

Specials that get your feet off the ground will also avoid the throw, but they also have to beat the s.strong or s.fierce that Guile used to throw, or you will get hit/trade.

[SaveFighting]

Thanks for the reply, Boxer.

How about if the match up is a HF Guile vs another HF character? Where there such things as counterthrows in HF?

[Khiempossible]

Reversal throw is the oldest trick in the book. It's existed since like CE.

That and all throws are 1 frame. All throws are the exact same speed (ain't sure if this applies to command throws as well though). But the idea behind reversal is that there is 1 frame where you can throw your opponent before he throws you. You must be in neutral to be thrown, so if you reversal, you have no neutral frame, cause you move directly from block to throw

EDIT for correctness

[Saotome Kaneda]

Evo West Results (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3218107)

Good shit on the Bros. taking back the crown, bringing the old school beasting.

Makes me wonder how vids will be handled for the qualifiers....Are they gonna be DVD'd, or are vids taken there free range? I need to see that Lv6 TAP.

[A_Wolfe]

Gracias! That was a great tournament. Some tough matches near the end, and lots of big name fights throughout the weekend. Had a close one with Valle, wish I could see that on tape. Can't wait until EVO, would like to beat some japanese players. I hope I get to play some.

[NKI]

Just a few minor corrections...
Reversal throw is the oldest trick in the book. It's existed since like CE.Since WW, actually. Even before reversal specials existed.

That and all throws are 1 frame.Actually they are 0 frame, meaning that they have no start-up, meaning that you go from neutral state directly into the throw, with no frames inbetween.

All throws are the exact same speed (ain't sure if this applies to command throws as well though).Special throws are also 0 frame.

But the idea behind reversal is that there is 1 frame where you can throw your opponent before he throws you.That is to say, there is one frame where you can throw your opponent before he is able to throw you.

You must be in neutral to be thrown, so if you reversal, you have no neutral frame, cause you move directly from block to throwRight. :tup:

And congrats to the Wolfe bros. and all the other qualifiers at Evo West! See you guys in Vegas. :smile:

[Kyokuji]

As for her j.Forward, Sim does not have a solid anti-air, aside from super.

I was afraid of that. Thanks for the vid' in any case.

[A_Wolfe]

NKI, I know that your pretty good at checking all the frame data. I have found that with Zangief, all the ducking kicks into 360 are irreversible. If timed correctly, an oppent can neither dragon punch, sonic kick, etc. This trick work easily all the way up until HF, however it is still possible in ST if you roll the controller for the 360 when you press short. Maybe you can confirm this. I know I have had many of the best in the world try to escape (Choi, Graham, Cole, ...) and have tested it as well. This trick only works with his ducking short (foward & Roundhouse), standing short seems to have a break between the 360. Anyway, interested in seeing how it looks in the frame data.

[Crayfish]

Pls can anyone post up some details of whom-played-which charcters at Evo West? And any other interesting details, like Final TAP etc...

Are they gonna allow footage of this btw?

Thnx, Crayfish. (http://www.shaolinchamber.com/video_files/TRAILERS/bloodsport-trailer.wmv)

[NKI]

c: crossup forward slide + back fierce on a jumping chun = dizzy, follow that with a super and chun is in big troubleThat is a REALLY dangerous thing to try against a jumping Chun, because if she does j.Forward (which she probably will), Dhalsim will be the one who gets crossed up. She can follow that up with cr.Forward xx Lightning Legs for almost half life and possible dizzy.

NKI, I know that your pretty good at checking all the frame data. I have found that with Zangief, all the ducking kicks into 360 are irreversible.I had some free time, so I updated the Wiki with a pretty detailed look at reversing tick attempts.

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Advanced_Strategy

I know that's kind of long, so if you don't feel like reading through it, the gist of it is, every character has a way to get out of every tick attempt. It's not easy, but it's possible.

ALSO...

Even in this 12-year-old game, I'm still learning new things:
Dictator's Jab Psycho Crusher is invincible for 3 frames in the beginning (Strong has 2 frames, Fierce has 1 frame). He can actually use that to reverse SPD tick attempts. It won't work against normal throw tick attempts (because you'll just get hit by the attacker's normal move), but at least he can get out of SPD ticks. I never knew that, and I have never seen a Dic player use Psycho Crusher to get out of SPD attempts before, but I just tested it, and it works. :tup:

[dublo7]

I know the computer does alot of things that are out of line, like doing charge moves without charging. But I've never seen it do anything to indicate that it can alter throwing distances. In fact if you use Dhalsim against the computer, you can still do the same throw/noogie techniques on the computer. So I think the throwing distances are kind of set. Thus my argument that Dhalsim can reverse Honda's command throw because CPU Dhalsim does it, still holds some water.


however sim doesn't want to be close to honda *at all*. noogying honda and then going for anything but a super is asking to get ochioed. so in a serious match i'd get sim to get away from honda, because that's where sim has the advantage to win. hell, i don't think *any* char will risk reversing the ochio except grapplers.

[dublo7]

all i know about the dhalsim vs chun li matchup is that
a: jump back strong beats chun's j.short clean if sim is higher up in the air than her

which means sim jumped before chun or chun jumped from too far away...

c: crossup forward slide + back fierce on a jumping chun = dizzy, follow that with a super and chun is in big trouble

i don't think i've slid on chun since ww. i think that works if she jumps in with rh...but most often her j.short and j. fwd are much better options. so aim to counter the j short/j.fwd.

niki: nice vids!

[omni]

Even in this 12-year-old game, I'm still learning new things:
Dictator's Jab Psycho Crusher is invincible for 3 frames in the beginning (Strong has 2 frames, Fierce has 1 frame). He can actually use that to reverse SPD tick attempts. It won't work against normal throw tick attempts (because you'll just get hit by the attacker's normal move), but at least he can get out of SPD ticks. I never knew that, and I have never seen a Dic player use Psycho Crusher to get out of SPD attempts before, but I just tested it, and it works. :tup:

I'm pretty sure...that even though he is invincible in the beginning he is still on the ground for a few frames thus being susceptible to throws. I've seen honda do ochio ticks to bison nonstop and bison getting reversal messages and still being thrown all day long.

Alex/NKI: Standing short (blocked) into SPD does feel like there is a gap, i know exactly what you are talking about. Low Short or even meaty low rh as they get up into SPD feels tighter...maybe we are all just delusional or maybe the rh causes more block stun making the window on when you do reversal dp harder. Although I would imagine standing short/low short would cause the exact same block stun. shrug - it is weird though.

NKI: wiki is looking nice, i'm loving the screen shots.

Derek Daniels
http://lowfierce.blogspot.com

[dublo7]

O. Sagat jumping :hk: spammers as well.

out fb sagat and hit him with a limb if they react. slide his jump ins with rh or short.
short slide into throw....let's see him get back in again.:wink:
Scissor kick happy Bisons

the st fwd and st strong will stop this move cold, regardless of what version bison they're using. start the match with one of those and drill them...until they use a good anti air counter, and then.... mix up more drills.

Slide happy Deejays

treat dee jay as a guile with better jump in. your st strong stops the slide, doesn't it? if not try cr.def.fwd. into fb. that'll keep him out and force him to either jump in (no prob) or dreadkick in (not so scary). is the dj ratioonebeatdown?

[vpt_whatup]

Is this (URL removed) Gian VS Daigo? I think that's Gian's color and for Daigo it's 50/50 between jab and start outfits.

[Sp00ky]

That match is so pretty. They fought each other from half screen distance almost the entire match.

[cam347]

quik n00b question does Vega's Scarlet terror (db, f + K) have invincibility frames?

And does anyone have tips for M. Bison (Vega) vs Gief it seems all he can do is poke and keep-away with standing MK/HK (dont know which one is recomended here)

[NKI]

Spence - Thanks for all the Dhalsim tips! :tup:

I'm pretty sure...that even though he is invincible in the beginning he is still on the ground for a few frames thus being susceptible to throws.He is on the ground, but he's 100% invincible, so he can't be thrown. (Similar to how a DP is still on the ground through all its invincibility frames, and it can't be thrown.)

I tested it out, and the Psycho Crusher definitely will work against SPDs. The problem is that it's only useful for avoiding SPDs and release-method command throws. If it's any other throw attempt, the attacker will get a normal move instead, and that will hit Dic cleanly.

I've seen honda do ochio ticks to bison nonstop and bison getting reversal messages and still being thrown all day long.Could have been Headstomp, Devil's Reverse, or Scissor Kicks. Or maybe the Honda player did his command throw late (after the Psycho Crusher's invincibility, before it's hitting frames).

Alex/NKI: Standing short (blocked) into SPD does feel like there is a gap, i know exactly what you are talking about. Low Short or even meaty low rh as they get up into SPD feels tighterFar st.Short will work just as well as cr.Short/cr.Forward/cr.RH. The only things that's important is that Gief recovers before the opponent, which he does for far st.Short. Gief's close st.Short, however, is a terrible tick, and the opponent actually gets a free throw on you if you do that.

NKI: wiki is looking nice, i'm loving the screen shots.Thanks dad! :tup:

Is this (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2419751957125704086&q=dal+ryu) Gian VS Daigo? I think that's Gian's color and for Daigo it's 50/50 between jab and start outfits.I'm pretty sure that's Gian and Shooting D. Daigo always plays brown Ryu; Shooting D always plays black Ryu.

quik n00b question does Vega's Scarlet terror (db, f + K) have invincibility frames?Actually just yesterday on the Wiki I put up a list of invincible moves:
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Advanced_Strategy
:smile:

To answer your question, yes, it's invincible.

And does anyone have tips for M. Bison (Vega) vs Gief it seems all he can do is poke and keep-away with standing MK/HK (dont know which one is recomended here)That's actually pretty accurate. You just wanna poke and keep away. As for st.Forward/st.RH, I don't know that there's a compelling reason to use one over the other. Also don't forget about using the slide to counter Gief's lariats (but be careful not to get baited by the kick lariat).

[margalis]

Standing forward and roundhouse, slide against lariat, jumpt straight up RH or towards + strong against jump-ins. That's the basic Dictator strategy IIRC.

About Dic and his torpedo - it's amazing what people rattle off as facts about old SF games. I tend not to trust anything that I haven't verified myself or had someone very reliable try to verify in an organized, logical fashion.

Just because I like to make fun of Julian Beasely, who can forget his gem? That Claw can beat Zangief "for free" by doing diving max-range claw scrapes over and over again. Julian goes to Japan then comes back and reports that Zangief can walk up low fierce to beat that. Yes, a plain old normal move beats the "for free" strategy.

And this is something he said for literally a year or two without anyone really contesting it at all.

Edit: Are all the versions of the double dread kicks really invincible at startup? If they reverse a throw do they get stuffed by the resulting normal attack?

[SaveFighting]

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Advanced_Strategy

I know that's kind of long, so if you don't feel like reading through it, the gist of it is, every character has a way to get out of every tick attempt. It's not easy, but it's possible.

Nice job, NKI.

I love the SSF2T wiki. I added the Logo a few days a go. I hope you don't mind. It would be cool if it had some example videos of things such as tick throwing, etc.

[A_Wolfe]

Yeah, I would still have to disagree. I'm sure Zangief can grab and guile has no chance at a sonic kick after the duck short. (Must be timed perfectly though) Would be fun to test live in LV :) Have you checked specifically for the 360? This is not like a normal throw, it has some special properties and the tick throw example is not the same thing. I have been playing the game long enough now that I can see frame starts and stops for certain moves (wow, is that good or bad) That shouldn't be too suprising after almost 15 yrs. lol.

Anyway, great job on the wiki, very nice screen shots and write ups! Keep it up. It's very looking sweet! I might have to add some tips to the Dhalsim section....

P.S.
NKI what is your main game going into EVO?

[skankin garbage]

Hey NKI, I got a question. I play Chun as my main, and my friend plays Fei. He's having trouble with D/F RH, because he doesn't know how to tell when it crosses up. I'd help him...but I honestly don't know how to say if it's gonna cross up, either! Can you shed some light on how that works, please?s

[Gen-An]

Yeah, I would still have to disagree. I'm sure Zangief can grab and guile has no chance at a sonic kick after the duck short. (Must be timed perfectly though) Would be fun to test live in LV :) Have you checked specifically for the 360? This is not like a normal throw, it has some special properties and the tick throw example is not the same thing. I have been playing the game long enough now that I can see frame starts and stops for certain moves (wow, is that good or bad) That shouldn't be too suprising after almost 15 yrs. lol.
P.S.
NKI what is your main game going into EVO?

I'm curious as to why you believe this. We know that you can't throw an opponent in either hit stun or block stun, meaning you have to wait until either is over to get a normal throw or a command throw (super throws seem to ignore this though), and just like NKI's example shows, reversals let you go from either of those unthrowable states directly into a special, super or a throw...

[Gen-An]

That is a REALLY dangerous thing to try against a jumping Chun, because if she does j.Forward (which she probably will), Dhalsim will be the one who gets crossed up. She can follow that up with cr.Forward xx Lightning Legs for almost half life and possible dizzy.

I had some free time, so I updated the Wiki with a pretty detailed look at reversing tick attempts.

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Advanced_Strategy

I know that's kind of long, so if you don't feel like reading through it, the gist of it is, every character has a way to get out of every tick attempt. It's not easy, but it's possible.

ALSO...

Even in this 12-year-old game, I'm still learning new things:
Dictator's Jab Psycho Crusher is invincible for 3 frames in the beginning (Strong has 2 frames, Fierce has 1 frame). He can actually use that to reverse SPD tick attempts. It won't work against normal throw tick attempts (because you'll just get hit by the attacker's normal move), but at least he can get out of SPD ticks. I never knew that, and I have never seen a Dic player use Psycho Crusher to get out of SPD attempts before, but I just tested it, and it works. :tup:

Too bad that won't work versus WW, CE and HF Gief since he has no SPD whiff animation :sad: That whole reversal sequence is interesting as it shows gief going into his SPD animation while guile is in the hit stun animation. I always assumed since the SPD has 0 frame startup that the display of that animation meant you got grabbed...

[ShinjiGohan]

All I remember is WW gief SPDs my shoryuken >.<

[Graham]

I'm curious as to why you believe this. We know that you can't throw an opponent in either hit stun or block stun, meaning you have to wait until either is over to get a normal throw or a command throw (super throws seem to ignore this though), and just like NKI's example shows, reversals let you go from either of those unthrowable states directly into a special, super or a throw...

Because the SPD isnt a normal throw.

Here is my analogy first. The people who build cars know on paper what their car can do, but aren't the best race car drivers. Only the best race car driver can tell you what the car can really do.

Now although all the frame data can show you things, its actually playing and seeing what really occurs to understand why this happens. We can't explain technically why it happens, but we know it works through lots of testing.

Keep in mind, in practice with my brother i do reversal timing on flash kicks or dragon punches and he pulls off clean spds with no reversal attack message on my side.

Its funny because I know many people who argued about this with my brother yet he has proved them all wrong over and over including myself and I have incorporated this into my play long ago when he first showed me it. But trust me I try to get out every time he attempts it every game we play, on occasion i do get a reversal attack when he fouls up but i'd say he lands it 90% of the time.

He is also the one who told me that ww guiles flashkick has no recovery time without looking at frame data. I've learned to take my brothers word for fact whenever he tells me stuff because he isnt a video game player so his view of the game is from a non-video game players perspective. He has never played another game besides the sf2 series.

[Gen-An]

True, the SPD isn't a normal throw, but it's still subject to the same rules. It can't grab someone in blockstun or hitstun; otherwise you could cancel into it.

[A_Wolfe]

I'm curious as to why you believe this.

I know this... You'll have to see it live. Frame data is cool, but a SPD is a special move. NKI is assuming the throw and SPD have the same properties, they do not. And honest mistake, no biggie. I am aware that any tick and regular throw can be reversed with a good special, this is not news to me, lol. I mean come on now, I been playing this game forever. Anyway, I'm anxious for my friend to post some videos of the practice games at EVO when I was playing Gief. You guys will probably like it. I'll let you know when I get the links. Peace.

but it's still subject to the same rules.
Trust me, its not.

[NKI]

First let me just say to the Wolfe bros. that I know you've been playing the game forever, and I respect your skill in ST, but if you're willing to look at the evidence with me, I can show you why your claim is not true.

I get the feeling that people don't really read what I type sometimes, or they don't understand it, or something...so maybe it's easier to see through actual in-game examples:

How to Reverse Tick Attempts (http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/NKI-How.to.Reverse.Tick.Attempts.wmv)

Low short/SPD is a link combo which is unbreakable by nearly any move in the game if done correctly. [...] if you do it right, even reversal dragon punch cant get you out.-There is no throw in the game that can grab during hit/block stun. The opponent must be in neutral state to be thrown.
-A reversal is going directly from hit/block stun to a special move. You never cross neutral state.
-A Dragon Punch can not be thrown for the first 8 frames because it is totally invincible. It hits on the 5th frame.

One last thing, for super/st gief it is possible to still do this technique, but since they added the whiff animation, sometimes that animation begins before the grab thereby making an opening for your opponent to dragon punch out.You seem to be confused about how the SPD works in SSF2/ST. It is no longer a 0 frame throw like it used to be in WW/CE/HF. In SSF2/ST, there is an 11-frame throw window. If the opponent reaches neutral state any time during that window, Gief will instantly grab. It's kind of like his 360+K, but it has a much, much shorter window of time to grab.

That being said, in my examples on the Wiki, you can clearly see that Guile would have been thrown on the first possible frame. Gief's SPD is just hanging out there, waiting to grab him as soon as he reaches neutral state. Problem is, Guile never reaches neutral state, which is why he never gets thrown.

To prove your idea true, you would have to show us footage of reversal DP (or reversal Flash Kick, etc) losing cleanly to SPD. I can save you a lot of time right now by telling you that you will never get that scenario; DP always wins.

Keep in mind, in practice with my brother i do reversal timing on flash kicks or dragon punches and he pulls off clean spds with no reversal attack message on my side.If you're not getting a reversal message and you're getting thrown, that means that you didn't time the reversal properly. You will never get thrown out of an invincible reversal.

on occasion i do get a reversal attack when he fouls up but i'd say he lands it 90% of the time.Actually it's the other way around: when you get the reversal, you timed it right. If you don't get the reversal, it's because YOU fouled up, and that's why you got thrown.

NKI is assuming the throw and SPD have the same properties, they do not.Actually, I'm not assuming it's the same. I clearly show how it's not the same because the SPD has a throw window, whereas a normal throw is 0 frames.

but it's still subject to the same rules.Trust me, its not.Are you saying that the SPD can grab while the opponent is in hit stun and/or block stun? Because that's the only way your claim could be true.

I might have to add some tips to the Dhalsim section....Please do! The character-specific sections really need more info, and I only play Chun, so don't really know the other characters.

NKI what is your main game going into EVO?The only game I play seriously is ST. AE is all right, but the problem is that I started playing Super Turbo around the year 2000, so I really have no idea what to do against pre-ST characters. :sad:

Hey NKI, I got a question. I play Chun as my main, and my friend plays Fei. He's having trouble with D/F RH, because he doesn't know how to tell when it crosses up.It will only cross-up if she is absolutely point blank when she does initially starts the D/F+RH. Also note that she can not cross him up with it when he is in the corner.

I'm curious as to why you believe this. We know that you can't throw an opponent in either hit stun or block stun, meaning you have to wait until either is over to get a normal throw or a command throw (super throws seem to ignore this though)I'm curious why you think super throws behave differently. From all the testing I've done, super throws obey the same rules as other throws. The opponent must be in neutral state.

Edit: Are all the versions of the double dread kicks really invincible at startup? If they reverse a throw do they get stuffed by the resulting normal attack?Forward and RH versions will get stuffed clean. Short is totally invincible in the beginning, then bottom-invincible (but still vulnerable high) until the first hitting frame. I think it will probably just trade, or maybe even lose cleanly, because the invincibility ends on frame 14 and the hitting frames start on frame 15. Definitely should be beating anything clean except low attacks.

[Best Kind Boxer]

I know that when I reversal out of noogie trap I eat the close s.MP. :(

sweet vid btw

[Graham]

NKI I respect your knowledge on this but you're basically saying that all the top players in the united states have shitty execution by saying we are wrong. My timing on reversals is probably one of the highest in the world, not just the united states. John Choi, Jason Cole, my brother all have this as well and have tested this thing. When done properly there is no reversal attack message the spd just happens and the enemy cannot stop it. Your frame data is good and all but if you actually try playing the game and not reading a book on it, the game speaks different. I know its hard to believe that things can be found that are undocumented even in japan, but this is one of them.

Like I said before though, we are positive this applies to the first 3 sf2s, and unsure about the consistency in super/st.

[dialupsucky]

I deffintly gotta agree with NKI on this, I dont think ive ever seen a sitution in SF where you just "wouldnt" be able to reversal a tick throw. I will say though ive deffintly seen before geif throwing the shoryuken after a reversal in ST quite a number of times. I assume its a distance thing. The throw, throws father then ryus dp hits thus ryus shoryuken gets thrown even though hes reversaling out of it. Ive deffintly seen stuff like that before. Then again thats ST shrug....


I dunno I guess do a test with say hyper geif or some geif that has no wiff on his spd, and try and reverse it with a super and up character. I dont see why it would be different but maybe it is.. I guess.... Or maybe it only works in old sf period. And even then that would be hard to test since it wont say reverse even if you did do it right shrug.

[Graham]

I guess.... Or maybe it only works in old sf period. And even then that would be hard to test since it wont say reverse even if you did do it right shrug.

It works in AE.

[ShinjiGohan]

Graham, most likely NKI is talking about ST specificly (as this is a ST topic). While you're mostly refering to WW-HF.

Though I'm sure he can run a few kawaks runs to verify in all 5 versions of the game, not sure if he'd actually want to do that though.

[polarity]

Isn't Bison's psycho crusher also worth using against midscreen special throw tick attempts? The advantages against the release method are obvious, but if they wise up and realize using the non-release method against Bison is better, reversalling still gets you knocked back onto your feet, giving them less time to get in close to you again. In the corner this is probably useless because they'll likely still be in range to meaty tick you again, but midscreen it gives you a little more of a chance.

[A_Wolfe]

Ah, arguments galore, I love it. Thanks for the break down NKI. much appreiciated. So for the record lets get it clear. You agree that

-WW-HF the 360 cannot be reversed?
-You don't believe that the 360 is irreversiable in SSF or ST?

I believe they are both irreversible. WW-HF being the clearest ex. Those versions are incredibly easy to accomplish the 360 trap. But... I have figured out how to do it in ST as well. Takes more timing and different execution but it is solid.

Hope in Vegas I can show you some cool stuff. Game theory is great, and somtimes very useful but... If you are making all judgements from data charts and tables, You might miss out on some pretty cool tricks :)

Bottom line is I don't think I'll be able to convince you or anyone otherwise in the forums, but perhaps in some warmup games I can take you for a 360 ride. heehe.

- Alex

P.S.
Glad to see ST is your game of choice. We'll have to get you up to speed on AE, Japan has to go down this year!

[polarity]

He's hardly just working things out from hard data. He's tested it running the game frame-by-frame, and found that it's always reversible. I don't see how you can argue with that just because of some idea of "OG-ness". I have all the respect for the OGs, but being OG doesn't allow you to defy the rules of the game that have been verified by the most accurate testing possible.

[Gen-An]

I'd think AE would be ideal for settling the issue with CPS1-era versions of Gief since (obstensibly) the properties for his SPD would be the same as in the original games, and AE gives an onscreen verification of a reversal. Then again, WW-HF Gief didn't have a SPD whiff so there is ambiguity as to whether or not the SPD motion was input correctly...

[bk2099]

I don't see how you can argue with that just because of some idea of "OG-ness".

winning evo west gives them the right to argue, i only wish i could clone myself so i could have an equal training partner like they (wolfe bros.) seem to have to elevate my gameplay

bringing a scientific approach to video games (frame data) = trying too hard = uncool, just my opinion

[Gen-An]

Video games are a product of science (programming), so how could taking a scientific approach to them be "trying too hard?"

[polarity]

winning evo west gives them the right to argue

As undeniably talented players as they are (certainly far better than I could likely ever hope to be), they're trying to argue against 100% accurate empirical testing with personal experience. It's fairly obvious which is more reliable.

[Graham]

As undeniably talented players as they are (certainly far better than I could likely ever hope to be), they're trying to argue against 100% accurate empirical testing with personal experience. It's fairly obvious which is more reliable.

Its not accurate is the problem. Obviously NKI is doing it wrong if he cannot perform it in his tests. If you were at evo west, any of you, you'd understand after being spd'd a buncha times and wondering wtf was happening. And yes I do know when I'm doing a reversal and when it doesn't come out. When you've gotten to the point where you do reversal's on every move you do, every chance you get its not about human error anymore.

I'll say this though, it doesn't follow the normal sf2 rules, i dont know why it works, but it does.

[Crayfish]

What more can NKI do than that slow-mo video to prove the point? Surely its more accurate than him trying to prove the point in play where execution may not be 100%
I'd always heard that in ST, SPD is stuffable in the manner NKI's demonstrated, but that T.Hawk's can grab anything thats in contact with the ground. 1st frame of Dragon etc... you hear "Sho-Ryu..." then your being thrown...

So is the ST SPD actually better as it has this 11frame window that waits to grab as soon as its possible than the single 0 frame you mentioned before? Or am I reading this the wrong way....


Crayfish. (http://www.shaolinchamber.com/video_files/TRAILERS/bloodsport-trailer.wmv)

[FMJaguar]

-WW-HF the 360 cannot be reversed?
-You don't believe that the 360 is irreversiable in SSF or ST?

I believe they are both irreversible.

In any case we've dealt with this before, there have been situations where people play the game 24/7/365 and would probably bet their life on a conclusion that ends up being incorrect. This is true especially when there is no visual evidence, and when you can blame missed trials on human error.

There have also been times where glitches and random things happen that are contrary to the normal rules of the game. For instance it's possible that the 'correct' SPD timing is actually a mistimed tick that eats special moves for some reason.

But anyway there's no sense arguing back and forth, there are only really two tests, 1) whats technically possible, and 2) how good it is IRL once the technical conclusions are found.

I don't really understand what NKI test everyone is referring to, with frame based macros we should be able to determine 1) what the timing for the perfect SPD tick is, and 2) the timing for the reversal of said tick. Even then, it's only half the test. Since you would have to see if mistiming the SPD cancels the special move as some sort of glitch. Once all that is done we will have the answer.

[A_Wolfe]

It's fairly obvious which is more reliable.
then the only explanation I can offer is that he is reading the data incorrectly or testing incorrectly. I am very scientific with my approach to the game. You don't get to a high level by hocus pocus and parlor tricks, not in SF. If something works in the game, then it works because it is programmed that way. In fact, I work all day long creating software. OG ness has nothing to do with it at all. But when we talk about experience on the game, I have a world of it. Again, it seems like the only way to prove it is have an expert demonstrate this...

So is the ST SPD actually better as it has this 11frame window that waits to grab as soon as its possible than the single 0 frame you mentioned before? Or am I reading this the wrong way....
Not sure if this is what your asking but. WW-HF SPD are by far the best. ST is much harder to get of perfectly.

[Graham]

In any case we've dealt with this before, there have been situations where people play the game 24/7/365 and would probably bet their life on a conclusion that ends up being incorrect. This is true especially when there is no visual evidence, and when you can blame missed trials on human error.

There have also been times where glitches and random things happen that are contrary to the normal rules of the game. For instance it's possible that the 'correct' SPD timing is actually a mistimed tick that eats special moves for some reason.

But anyway there's no sense arguing back and forth, there are only really two tests, 1) whats technically possible, and 2) how good it is IRL once the technical conclusions are found.

I don't really understand what NKI test everyone is referring to, with frame based macros we should be able to determine 1) what the timing for the perfect SPD tick is, and 2) the timing for the reversal of said tick. Even then, it's only half the test. Since you would have to see if mistiming the SPD cancels the special move as some sort of glitch. Once all that is done we will have the answer.

Also keep in mind the specific inputs used for the spd might be part of the 'glitch' if you want to call it that. Since there are many ways to do the spd.

[Chris F]

When 2 people get together and test reversing out of a tick, getting the reversal after a jab/short is more difficult than a reversal after wakeup. You actually have to be concentrating even harder to time it perfectly. You are simply going to miss one here and there, that is just the way it is.

Reversal upon wakeup is a timing that eventually gets burned into you like muscle memory, and you have a couple of seconds to prepare for it. It's not uncommon for people to get 10 in a row. You don't have to compress your motions into a very short amount of time, it is quite relaxed in comparison.

I invite anyone to try it themselves, get a reversal dragonpunch or even flash kick after blocking anyone's crouching short, and see how quick you actually have to be. It can be done very consistently, but take note of how fast and accurate you REALLY have to be! Do you think you can do this 20 times in a row without a miss, and then do it another 20 times?

What do you think is more difficult to time, the reversal, or the actual SPD tick? A good SF player can time the tick very well time after time, so what happens eventually is the "reverser" (guy doing the DP) _INEVITABLY_ screws up... and will screw up several times over the course of the testing.

What is happening is that they come to the conclusion that when the DP'er actually messed up the reversal, they think that they actually timed the SPD at a 'secret perfect timing' that is either programmed into the game or is some kind of glitch.

[Graham]

When 2 people get together and test reversing out of a tick, getting the reversal after a jab/short is more difficult than a reversal after wakeup. You actually have to be concentrating even harder to time it perfectly. You are simply going to miss one here and there, that is just the way it is.

Reversal upon wakeup is a timing that eventually gets burned into you like muscle memory, and you have a couple of seconds to prepare for it. It's not uncommon for people to get 10 in a row. You don't have to compress your motions into a very short amount of time, it is quite relaxed in comparison.

I invite anyone to try it themselves, get a reversal dragonpunch or even flash kick after blocking anyone's crouching short, and see how quick you actually have to be. It can be done very consistently, but take note of how fast and accurate you REALLY have to be! Do you think you can do this 20 times in a row without a miss, and then do it another 20 times?

What do you think is more difficult to time, the reversal, or the actual SPD tick? A good SF player can time the tick very well time after time, so what happens eventually is the "reverser" (guy doing the DP) _INEVITABLY_ screws up... and will screw up several times over the course of the testing.

What is happening is that they come to the conclusion that when the DP'er actually messed up the reversal, they think that they actually timed the SPD at a 'secret perfect timing' that is either programmed into the game or is some kind of glitch.

Thats a good theory when you're talking 15 minutes of testing, not 15 years.

[stream3]

this thread is priceless...

We have the old school who's skills TRANSCEND the very game engine itself (if the game engine works as NKI has described in the wiki). Their skills and knowledge of the game are so mystical that no mere "frame data" can explain it.

Then we have NKI who breaks it down frame by frame in Kawaks.

This is like "the big bang theory" vs religious people. I remember a similar argument in TTT about whether it was possible to EWGF a blocked Jin WS+2. NKI, I believe the ONLY way to resolve this dispute is to get a programmed stick to do reversals on the push of a button. And i'm sure NKI could easily rig this up. And even then old school would stick to their beliefs.

[Graham]

this thread is priceless...

We have the old school who's skills TRANSCEND the very game engine itself (if the game engine works as NKI has described in the wiki). Their skills and knowledge of the game are so mystical that no mere "frame data" can explain it.

Then we have NKI who breaks it down frame by frame in Kawaks.

This is like "the big bang theory" vs religious people. I remember a similar argument in TTT about whether it was possible to EWGF a blocked Jin WS+2. NKI, I believe the ONLY way to resolve this dispute is to get a programmed stick to do reversals on the push of a button. And i'm sure NKI could easily rig this up. And even then old school would stick to their beliefs.

Nah its more like the argument a few months back about how NKI believed reversal wakeup throws were 100% until someone explained how on turbo 3 the game skips every 4th frame thereby adding inconsistency. I mean all the frame knowledge is great, but how the game actually runs can sometimes be different.

[NKI]

I don't really understand what NKI test everyone is referring to, with frame based macros we should be able to determine 1) what the timing for the perfect SPD tick is, and 2) the timing for the reversal of said tick. Even then, it's only half the test. Since you would have to see if mistiming the SPD cancels the special move as some sort of glitch. Once all that is done we will have the answer.This is what they're talking about:

How to Reverse Tick Attempts (http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/NKI-How.to.Reverse.Tick.Attempts.wmv)

Now before I take an hour and a half to reply to everything else in this thread, please let me know before-hand if anyone will actually read it and/or care. There is so much misinformation in the last two pages of this thread that I don't even know where to begin, but if nobody really cares, then I won't even bother.

[A_Wolfe]

Their skills and knowledge of the game are so mystical that no mere "frame data" can explain it.

Is that what it is. lol. There is nothing mystical about it. The big problem is that you are starting to believe data from one person and one person only (NKI). That is a huge problem. There are many players that have a deep understanding of the game, all who should be taken seriously (including NKI). One reason some will never become great players, is because they believe everything they hear and never test for themselves. If you want to make this an OG vs New School arguement, I'm not going to be a part of that. This has nothing to do with that. This has to do with a top player sharing a trick with another top player. If anyone doesn't feel like it works, please don't try it. For those that want to use it, be my guest.

We may have a difference of opinion on this topic but because a player has quoted frame data does not mean they are right or wrong. However I really do appreciate seeing that technical info, its great and valuable. The write ups from NKI have been very very good. I have just found it to be inaccurate in some rare cases.

BTW, nice vid NKI. One question, I don't know if you answered this yet. Does your video apply to WW-HF characters as well? Anyway, can't wait to play in Vegas, hopefully we can set up some good practice matches before and after tourney.

[omni]

This is what they're talking about:

How to Reverse Tick Attempts (http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/NKI-How.to.Reverse.Tick.Attempts.wmv)

Now before I take an hour and a half to reply to everything else in this thread, please let me know before-hand if anyone will actually read it and/or care. There is so much misinformation in the last two pages of this thread that I don't even know where to begin, but if nobody really cares, then I won't even bother.

Interesting video, never seen it before. The 2 parts that interest me though are where guile blocks.

The 1st one it looks like guile plays a frame of his reaction...maybe thats just the first frame that all chars play when they get grabbed by spd. Looks ugly whatever it is.

The 2nd one is where guile blocks then does reversal flash kick. Is it me or is guile in standing block animation before the flash kick comes out? I suppose they (capcom) allowed for sloppier execution when it came to doing reversals in ST. I wonder if this could simply have something to do with it.

Execution is one of the most annoying things in fighting games - it just gets in the way in a lot of matchups. I remember one of the first times i went to SVGL and played against everyone there, I think cole was being a bully and doing low short throw with bison on me. Choi laughed and told me to reverse with short hurricane kick instead of dp. I must admit - my percentage of getting out went up. I think every single tick can be escaped but i think some situations are just harder than others - either do to mental reasons, shitty joysticks, shitty human execution, or whatever.

However at the end of the day, it's a videogame and we already know of a ton of bugs/glitches that have popped so i suppose anything is possible. I used to think all jump in attacks could be dp'ed which got disproven as the years went on.

Derek Daniels
http://lowfierce.blogspot.com

[polarity]

This is what they're talking about:

How to Reverse Tick Attempts (http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/NKI-How.to.Reverse.Tick.Attempts.wmv)

Now before I take an hour and a half to reply to everything else in this thread, please let me know before-hand if anyone will actually read it and/or care. There is so much misinformation in the last two pages of this thread that I don't even know where to begin, but if nobody really cares, then I won't even bother.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say it's always nice to hear more from you on the subject of ST. Perhaps at this point you're just preaching to the choir/screaming at a wall, though, as it doesn't seem like anyone is going to budge on this issue.

[ShinjiGohan]

Nah its more like the argument a few months back about how NKI believed reversal wakeup throws were 100% until someone explained how on turbo 3 the game skips every 4th frame thereby adding inconsistency. I mean all the frame knowledge is great, but how the game actually runs can sometimes be different.

And how many players knew the game skips every 4th frame prior to that? How would someone even be able to exploit it consistently? Find an execution sequence that allows for the first frame that they would reversal throw would be skipped (frame data would be helpful there), and keep track of what frame number the game is on at that speed? So they know exactly which frame to perform said sequence that would screw up a reversal throw attempt? That also assumes that both players can execute with frame precision. Which is humanly impossible.

But for the certain situations of where that arrises, you now have a 75% chance of a reversal throw.

The only other way I could see to prove the claim (from the wolfe brothers) would be to capture their reversal attacks from a tick SPD. While it would be nice if AE had an option for command listings so you can tell on which frame they execute the SPD, and reversal move. Even without the command listing we could see on which frame you end up grabbing the opponent from the block/hit stun and compare that with NKI's video and tell where the difference is (if it grabs eariler then somehow you've found a way to cancel hit/block stun), if it grabs later then the reversal was probably fucked up (done either too earily or too late).

Now most likely neither of you have a capture card, but if you record it on VHS, I'll be glad to encode it for you and host the clip. Or you could try to record in mame or kawaks but I don't have any experience with that.

[Graham]

And how many players knew the game skips every 4th frame prior to that? How would someone even be able to exploit it consistently? Find an execution sequence that allows for the first frame that they would reversal throw would be skipped (frame data would be helpful there), and keep track of what frame number the game is on at that speed? So they know exactly which frame to perform said sequence that would screw up a reversal throw attempt? That also assumes that both players can execute with frame precision. Which is humanly impossible.

But for the certain situations of where that arrises, you now have a 75% chance of a reversal throw.

The only other way I could see to prove the claim (from the wolfe brothers) would be to capture their reversal attacks from a tick SPD. While it would be nice if AE had an option for command listings so you can tell on which frame they execute the SPD, and reversal move. Even without the command listing we could see on which frame you end up grabbing the opponent from the block/hit stun and compare that with NKI's video and tell where the difference is (if it grabs eariler then somehow you've found a way to cancel hit/block stun), if it grabs later then the reversal was probably fucked up (done either too earily or too late).

Now most likely neither of you have a capture card, but if you record it on VHS, I'll be glad to encode it for you and host the clip. Or you could try to record in mame or kawaks but I don't have any experience with that.

As for the 4th frame stuff, it doesnt matter if it wasnt discovered, it still existed and was affecting game for longer than you guys even played st and affecting situations where we felt it but didnt know the technical reasons behind it yet learned to use it as part of play. As for humans executing with frame precision impossible? hardly, before video games, pianists were playing their masterpieces with frame precision timing on a piano. Its funny your statement reminds me of the tekken 3 strategy guide i wrote with versus books. There was this move i discovered which was undocumented in the japanese move list namco provided, it was a lightning uppercut that jin had. I found this move that they called the 'red fireball' of tekken. Anyway to make a long story short at the end of the book the lead author says do it 10 times in a row and you're right, where arney and cole were arguing that it was random. I did it 7/10 in a row, this move keep in mind was executed on a 1 frame out of 60 timing. I guess im inhuman? Consider too that i wasnt used to doing this strange dragon punch style motion because i had only been playing this game for a couple months otherwise my timing would have been better.

Like alex said before this isn't a pissing contest, we are trying to share pro strats. If you guys would rather spend all this time disputing it rather than practicing it before evo finals go ahead. I will say this, everything nki or any other player posts i test and attempt to incorporate in my game if it seems beneficial. I have yet to hear one persons response who has actually tried this vs their friends for a while.

EDIT: to reduce spammage im posting a response to below above, you dont learn to use it, you rely on its 25% to mess up your opponent. its like gambling in your favor considering all they get is a tiny throw which can be teched, whereas you can end the entire round if you succeed with a dizzying wakeup combo. the 75% is assuming your opponent is perfect, no one is perfect, even the japanese will mess up so the odds increase in your favor.

[Desk]

yeah, i'd echo what polarity said. I'm particularly liking the little vids. The wiki would be awesome with video clips demonstrating all the subtleties of ST. glitches, randomness of damage/throws etc.

also on the subject of frames, does the game actually run at a different frame rate on different speeds? thus making things work or not work?

EDIT: ^^ how did you learn to use 4th frame skippage in play? I can't begin to imagine how that would be possible.

[felineki]

also on the subject of frames, does the game actually run at a different frame rate on different speeds? thus making things work or not work?

EDIT: ^^ how did you learn to use 4th frame skippage in play? I can't begin to imagine how that would be possible.(Note, I do not claim to be anywhere near expert level when it comes to SF, so I may very well be wrong about this) ST always seems to run at ~60 frames per second. Playing at the slowest speed gives you every single possible frame. Playing on the faster speeds still gives 60 fps, but a certain amount of frames (such as every 4th frame or such, the exact number depends on the speed) are cut, resulting in everything moving and animating faster.

As for it affecting moves, I could only possibly see it affecting things that have single frame windows, and even then, it would only let them not work if the skipped frame just happened to coincide with the frame you needed to input on. Thus, if you have such a move, and the game is skipping every 4th frame, it can be assumed that you'll be able to get the move 75% of the time, and 25% of thetime it won't work.

[ShinjiGohan]

Well I'm not going to Evo, so its not like I have to practice it up lol. But none the less, the offer stands. If you want to record it so we can compare it with NKI then go ahead and mail it to me so I can encode it at 60fps and compare it to see if its any different from NKI's clip.

[Toodles]

NKI: Yes, many people are reading this.

Graham: I can understand the losing frames messing up reversals, but you're describing or alluding to something you control causing an un-reversable SPD; how would that be setup, and is there any reason it couldnt be recorded and tested, instead of just 'felt'?

[tataki]

great vids! *thumbs up*

[Graham]

NKI: Yes, many people are reading this.

Graham: I can understand the losing frames messing up reversals, but you're describing or alluding to something you control causing an un-reversable SPD; how would that be setup, and is there any reason it couldnt be recorded and tested, instead of just 'felt'?

Ok to theorize because to be honest i dont know the technical reason for it happening i have 2 theories based off the information nki provided. First is that the grab is occuring before the reversal frame occurs like 1 frame before it?, other theory is that the 4th frame skip is occuring on reversal timing thereby making it fail as well. I lean toward the former theory because i know its more consistent than 25%.

Now if you wanted to test it, have nki count frames on moves like the low short and find out if somehow the frames are being removed causing this to occur. He would have to count the total number of frames frame by frame over a number of tests, not just 1, and make sure the proper speed setting is on as well (speed 3).

[Desk]

thanks for the speed explination, i also meant to ask, does an effect similar to every 4th frame skiiping occur on other speeds? for example speed zero having every frame and speed 1 missing frames in order to speed the game up?. or does this only happen on speed 3? I'm just confused as to why it would happen on one particular speed.

Also I hear alot about 2D fighters running at 60 frames a second. I'm not saying this isn't true (i know nothing about it...) but I always found it hard to believe when I see how few frames of animation there are in game.

[polarity]

Ok to theorize because to be honest i dont know the technical reason for it happening i have 2 theories based off the information nki provided. First is that the grab is occuring before the reversal frame occurs like 1 frame before it?, other theory is that the 4th frame skip is occuring on reversal timing thereby making it fail as well. I lean toward the former theory because i know its more consistent than 25%.

Seeing as the reversal frame is simply the first frame you come out of block/hitstun, what you're saying is that you've found a way to grab out of block/hitstun?

[A_Wolfe]

Perhaps at this point you're just preaching to the choir/screaming at a wall

No, his video and write ups are great, and for the most part very accurate, But are you saying that there is no way he could be wrong? Because that is the impression I'm getting.

However, since you know nothing of me and my brother I would probably side with NKI too if I was in your shoes.

I'm happy to see there is so much interest in this thread. But if you don't try to do the tricks, unfortunatly... You will never learn them. :(

Anyway, next trick I post will be much less controversial (at least I think so.) lol

- Alex

[felineki]

thanks for the speed explination, i also meant to ask, does an effect similar to every 4th frame skiiping occur on other speeds? for example speed zero having every frame and speed 1 missing frames in order to speed the game up?. or does this only happen on speed 3? I'm just confused as to why it would happen on one particular speed.

Also I hear alot about 2D fighters running at 60 frames a second. I'm not saying this isn't true (i know nothing about it...) but I always found it hard to believe when I see how few frames of animation there are in game.
I think it happens on several of the speeds, it's just that the number of frames cut is different. For example, speed 2 might have every 6th frame cut instead of every 4th (just making that up as an example, have no idea if it's accurate or not).

The frames we talk about here aren't the same as the animation frames the sprites have. The "60 frames per second" frames refer to the increments of time that the game engine itself works on. Movement is the best way to notice this. For example, Ryu's jumping animation may only use 5 different sprites, but the actual motion of his character is much smoother than this, obviously. He doesn't just jerk from spot to spot in mid-air.

[polarity]

No, his video and write ups are great, and for the most part very accurate, But are you saying that there is no way he could be wrong? Because that is the impression I'm getting.

Nah, I'm not so closed-minded as to believe there's no possibility you're right. But without evidence beyond "I've done it," I don't see anyone in this thread changing their minds.

[Desk]

I realise that charcaters don't jerk around the screen but you don't need 60fps for this to be the case. I hear what you're saying though. Again I'm not doubting It just always confused me. Another thing that made me think otherwise was being able to consistently do wake up reversals, when there's such an apparently small window (1/60th of a second... well 2 with the release of the button).

[A_Wolfe]

But without evidence beyond "I've done it

Point well taken, would love to post a video, will just take me a little time.

Many of the great tricks in this game came from an era that is long gone, I hope you guys will keep and open mind and realize not too many people know or care at this point to share some of these things. My brother and I have a world of experience in this game and know alot of cool things that will probably never become main stream. I have figured glitches that people still don't know about and as long as there is interest, I'll take some time and share them. Seems like the vids are popular, if I can make a decent set up, I'll do some capturing of my own.

[Kyokuji]

FPS has nothing to do with how many frames of animation there are.
Think of it this way.
If you have a camera that records at 60 FPS, and you're drawing a flipbook, but you only use 3 frames for a character's walking animation, it's going to look jerky. Not because of the camera, but because you were too lazy to add more frames.

[ShinjiGohan]

Point well taken, would love to post a video, will just take me a little time.

Many of the great tricks in this game came from an era that is long gone, I hope you guys will keep and open mind and realize not too many people know or care at this point to share some of these things. My brother and I have a world of experience in this game and know alot of cool things that will probably never become main stream. I have figured glitches that people still don't know about and as long as there is interest, I'll take some time and share them. Seems like the vids are popular, if I can make a decent set up, I'll do some capturing of my own.


Which was why I offered my services lol.

But yea, most of us respect you even if we're from the midwest and never saw you play. You're reputation precedes you to the people who followed the best they could despite being 2000 miles away.

Just some things are easier to understand with frame data, but frame data doesn't show things like CPS1 chains either, or super canceling normals into supers in ST.

[GGL-steve]

Not to start an arguement but...

Frame data is something that holds true for many games. I'm not talking "animation frames" but game engine ticks.

What frame data is great for is a best case senario should all things stay constant. It's a great scientific way to deduct what is, and isn't possible in a certain situation. It's also often used to check for cheats in online games. However in any video game nothing is ever constant. Glitches and hardware issues come into play and can create moments where you sit and say "what the fuck that isn't possible" but for some odd reason it happened.

There are often ways to input things in a special way that will glitch a game (that's a code error) or cause a hardware hickup. It's at this exact instant you get those voodoo moments. People will tend to brush it aside as human error but if you take the time to push it they aren't.

Thing is these are once in a blue moon, unless you've been playing the game long enough to have seen it and used it enough that you instictively understand how to create it. You might not be able to explain it, but you can pull it off. Sadly looking at frame data, or even the game engine isn't going to give you an explanation. In theory if you could see all the code and understood exactly how all the hardware works you could offer up a scientific explanation. I've yet to see a person who's been able to do that but anything is possible.

I'm honestly interested in seeing some vids of this in action.

[stream3]

sorry about the inherent "old school new school" undertones. I guess "15 years of experience" or "wealth of untapped knowledge" doesn't imply old school at all. Anyways I welcome the wolfe brothers input, hopefully you guys can update the wiki with some juice and make the US scene better overall by bringing new strats to the table. Can't wait for EVO West vids to be posted.

good example about Jin's EWGF, but all you had to do was ask the koreans :D I wonder why Cole and Arney thought it was random, the timing for EWGF is not tight at all. Not like it was a just frame or anything.

NKI why don't you email some of your Japanese ST buddies, yuu vega, noguchi, ask them what they think? I value their opinion since they've been playing hardcore ST all these years.

[stream3]

Not to start an arguement but...

Frame data is something that holds true for many games. I'm not talking "animation frames" but game engine ticks.

What frame data is great for is a best case senario should all things stay constant. It's a great scientific way to deduct what is, and isn't possible in a certain situation. It's also often used to check for cheats in online games. However in any video game nothing is ever constant. Glitches and hardware issues come into play and can create moments where you sit and say "what the fuck that isn't possible" but for some odd reason it happened.

There are often ways to input things in a special way that will glitch a game (that's a code error) or cause a hardware hickup. It's at this exact instant you get those voodoo moments. People will tend to brush it aside as human error but if you take the time to push it they aren't.

Thing is these are once in a blue moon, unless you've been playing the game long enough to have seen it and used it enough that you instictively understand how to create it. You might not be able to explain it, but you can pull it off. Sadly looking at frame data, or even the game engine isn't going to give you an explanation. In theory if you could see all the code and understood exactly how all the hardware works you could offer up a scientific explanation. I've yet to see a person who's been able to do that but anything is possible.

I'm honestly interested in seeing some vids of this in action.

You are right, frame data isn't going to help in all cases. But if a glitch is a known entity and the game gets enough competition, things are going to get found out. I.e. all the glitches in CVS2, Tekken 3, tag, etc. These glitches are all proven and repeatable.

People being able to exploit "once-in-a-blue-moon" glitches that no one can explain is more fishy and I call bullshit. That's like saying pressing start during "toasty" in MK2 is a viable strategy.

[GGL-steve]

You are right, frame data isn't going to help in all cases. But if a glitch is a known entity and the game gets enough competition, things are going to get found out. I.e. all the glitches in CVS2, Tekken 3, tag, etc. These glitches are all proven and repeatable.

People being able to exploit "once-in-a-blue-moon" glitches that no one can explain is more fishy and I call bullshit. That's like saying pressing start during "toasty" in MK2 is a viable strategy.

No it's not.

Most glitches are over site (bad game testing). That's on the level of buffering, linking to supers, it was just an over sight.

Blue moon glitches are engine, or hardware, MUCH harder to force.

If you look at pro gaming in general you will find that "once in a blue moon" turns up pretty often in a select few people. It gets to the point where people will cry cheat. ranted there are only a few select people who can pull it off (most are gamers with several years backing them in a specific game engine).

Even under games that are looked at under a microscope because over 30grand is the first place prize people still manage to pull "that's not possible" moments out of their ass, consistently. Oddly enough these are the same gamers that won't play online, won't play on LCD/Plasma (because of the 8ms + delay), and seem to argue over the most mundane issues of hardware. Because it's in those milliseconds of time that it comes into play. Even if they don't fully grasp how it works they know the difference between pulling it off and not.

I don't see why this won't hold true with what a wolfe is talking about... because games are games and glitches are glitches. The same rules hold true in every genre.

[stream3]

alright so it looks like your blue-moon examples are coming from PC games configured for various types of hardware.

What's your blue-moon example for a game like ST or any fighting game for that matter, which runs on universal hardware?

[Ouroborus]

new vids up @ game41.

vega is too fuckin good in ST, i think that was his best incarnation ever.

[Chris F]

Thats a good theory when you're talking 15 minutes of testing, not 15 years.

You are assuming I haven't played for 15 years (which I have) - You told me 10 years ago about this same glitch, and we actually had the same argument. One of you said it was intentionally programmed into the game, crouching forward into SPD... programmed intentionally to be irreversible. I was quite convinced that your percentage of failure to reverse was exactly equal to your claimed percentage of 'success' of your glitch. I also had many conversations with James Goddard that week and we did discuss reversals and Hyperfighting/ST and he never said anything about Zangief getting any secret glitches. I've never doubted you guys' skill/knowledge/experience, I just happen to disagree.

[Alphastorm]

There is a big difference between testing and playing. According to Graham's statement, he's been "testing" this glitch for 15 years. And you're saying you've been "playing" for 15 years. Sounds like oranges and apples to me.

[Chris F]

It's quite obvious you don't even want to try investigating yourself. Pathetic.

Everyone here is free to test this glitch out for themselves!!!!!

Is there some kind of rule that only Graham and Alex Wolfe can test something?

There's a guy here named NKI who tests these exact things in case you didn't notice.

Do you think it's impossible for an old-schooler to be wrong or something?

[Alphastorm]

I never said that. You need to be more open minded. I'm not claiming who is right or wrong. I thought we were still in the testing stages? You just sound like someone who has to be right. Try stepping off your pedestal and look at things from a different perspective.

[Spirited_Away]

I have tested alot of SPD ticks over the years (playing since 95) and believe me ST does have a certain amount of randomness regarding alot of things SPD ticks included. It might be true that in some strange random moment SPD type moves cannot be reversed especially 0 frame throw specials like Honda's or T.Hawk's...

But that doesn't mean it happens all the time, it's just a glitch that happens randomly, once my bro's Honda command threw me out of my Jab DP...and Ken said "Shoryuken" after he was on the ground !! now that's an ugly random glitch..

I myself think the most tight SPD ticks are :
crouching jabs/standing or crouching foward/meaty crounching RH --> SPD

They all can be reversed, the meaty Rh tick is the hardest but still can be reversed.

The most tight command throws are Honda's and T.Hawks but Zangief's advantage is the range and his disadvatage is his startup which makes it a reversal bait, now here's a point that still bugs me, if Zangief's SPD does have an 11 frame window...why can't normal throws reverse it ? normal throws have 0 frame so technically it is an advantage, but in reality normal throws don't reverse command throws, do command throws have some sort of programmed priority over normal throws !!

I've been testing 0 frame command throws vs SPD and if you are in range, Zangief will always lose if the tick is perfectly timed, a few points I like to clear up thou...Honda has a random input lag on command throw, I bet most of you guys noticed it over the years...on some occasions the throw will come out a few frames late. But for T.Hawk his command throw will always beat Gief's SPD if he's in range of couse ! the only escape reversal is Super or the zero frame suplex (360xK) which IMO is underestimated and ignored by many Zangief players.

[TS]

^^ you know, I was mentioning in the SFAlpha Anthology thread that some attacks seem to be invincible but not unthrowable...because I know I've been SPDd out of DPs before, but it shouldn't be possible in games where DP is fully invincible, or even just for the first 8(?!) frames like in ST.

About the SPD thing...
...might it be an irreversible window?

I was thinking of a wakeup situation, and I started thinking about command throws in SFA3...during V-ISM combos, you can actually OTG people with many of them. So, I started wondering if there was a "dead" period where you couldn't yet get a reversal out, but can still be thrown, even if only by command throws, or even just SPD, maybe only for two frames, even.

That aside, Is the "reversal" message completely accurate? I remember someone mentioning that it might not always be. Or maybe I'm wrong and they were refering to reversal throws...?

I would think it's likely that there would be differences in the way the inescapable tick works between ST and, say, CE (assuming it exists in the first place). However, in HSF2, those differences might disappear...maybe OG Gief can do it on Super/ST characters, and Super/ST Gief can do it on the older characters. Maybe it's only a certain tick? So many variables.

One might assume that it wouldn't work, but one might also assume that damage wouldn't be random at times, or that you wouldn't be able to SPD people out of the air, so...

[caliagent#3]

^^ you know, I was mentioning in the SFAlpha Anthology thread that some attacks seem to be invincible but not unthrowable...because I know I've been SPDd out of DPs before, but it shouldn't be possible in games where DP is fully invincible, or even just for the first 8(?!) frames like in ST.

About the SPD thing...
...might it be an irreversible window?

I was thinking of a wakeup situation, and I started thinking about command throws in SFA3...during V-ISM combos, you can actually OTG people with many of them. So, I started wondering if there was a "dead" period where you couldn't yet get a reversal out, but can still be thrown, even if only by command throws, or even just SPD, maybe only for two frames, even.

That aside, Is the "reversal" message completely accurate? I remember someone mentioning that it might not always be. Or maybe I'm wrong and they were refering to reversal throws...?

I would think it's likely that there would be differences in the way the inescapable tick works between ST and, say, CE (assuming it exists in the first place). However, in HSF2, those differences might disappear...maybe OG Gief can do it on Super/ST characters, and Super/ST Gief can do it on the older characters. Maybe it's only a certain tick? So many variables.

One might assume that it wouldn't work, but one might also assume that damage wouldn't be random at times, or that you wouldn't be able to SPD people out of the air, so...

Isn't there like a range of frames where a reversal is possible? Say like from frame 1-3...If so then maybe the SPD is being input at frame 2 while the DP at frame 3 resulting in the reversal message popping up. i dunno, just a random theory i thought up.

[Spirited_Away]

You have to put in mind that there is a box called throw box...I didn't see any mook that shows you each characters throw box. We have three type of detection boxes in Capcom games. A collision box, a hit box and a throw box...if a throw box exist then you can be thrown even if the move was invincible it depends on the throw range if the range reache the throw box then you can be thrown.

If you guys wanna see the throw box go and get Vampire Hunter for Sega Saturn there is a debug code that shows all boxes during gameplay, you'll see 3 boxes Green (throw), Blue (collosion), Red (Hit). I think the idea applies to all of Capcom's 2D games.

If invincible DP do have a throw box...then to throws they are not invincible, what makes a move invincible to attacks is the no collosion box rule. But total invinicibility is no collision box and no throw box.

[polarity]

I already theorized myself that characters have throw boxes which are different to their hit boxes, as it was the only way I could think of to explain why a character's throw range is matchup-specific. It's nice to hear it semi-confirmed by its presence in another game. That said, I believe invincible moves in ST are always invincible to both hits and throws.

[GGL-steve]

alright so it looks like your blue-moon examples are coming from PC games configured for various types of hardware.

What's your blue-moon example for a game like ST or any fighting game for that matter, which runs on universal hardware?

I'm not talking about "various types" of hardware. That doesn't matter... and my perspective wasn't just from PC. I'm talking about console/arcade/PC any video game out there. And for the record in pro gaming events everybody uses the same hardware so there is no