Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

[Decoy]

Hmmm, I saw those vids and I gotta agree with Graham, a couple of cool things I saw but nothing that made me say damn. More importantly, WTH was there no Blanka play up in there? Ah, they just don't understand the power that is Jimmy.

~Decoy

[stream3]

so who are the USA's finest? I assume you are talking about yourself and your brother perhaps. Because IIRC all the elite US players who still play the game have at some point competed with the top japanese players. Valle, Cole, Choi, Watson, etc. So you need to identify which players you are talking about.

Are we talking ST or AE or what? Anyways, we shouldn't drag this into a Japan vs US debate again. Because in ST they have demonstrated that they have the better scene. More people competing at a consistent basis and their tournament history speaks for itself.

[Graham]

Hmmm, I saw those vids and I gotta agree with Graham, a couple of cool things I saw but nothing that made me say damn. More importantly, WTH was there no Blanka play up in there? Ah, they just don't understand the power that is Jimmy.

~Decoy

There was a good blanka player in the lower brackets, he lost to someone else early on but he had a fairly good blanka, saw some nice setups he was using and he knew how to control his opponents.

so who are the USA's finest? I assume you are talking about yourself and your brother perhaps. Because IIRC all the elite US players who still play the game have at some point competed with the top japanese players. Valle, Cole, Choi, Watson, etc. So you need to identify which players you are talking about.

Are we talking ST or AE or what? Because in ST they have demonstrated time and again that they have the better scene. They still play the game on a consistent basis and their track record speaks for itself. No hate, just the facts.

I'm talking Cole, Myself, my bro, Choi, Watson, and a few others.

Obviously they have the better scene if they got arcades packed with players when I can put all the top players in the US on 2 hands. But that doesnt mean they have the better players. What track record are you speaking about? I thought cole has been beating them for years and they finally just beat him the last 2 evos? Your facts mixed up?
And competing on a consistent basis doesnt make for better players, why does the US still suck at soccer?

[Decoy]

There was a good blanka player in the lower brackets, he lost to someone else early on but he had a fairly good blanka, saw some nice setups he was using and he knew how to control his opponents.

I must have misssed that vid. That wasn't part of the batch that Crayfish uploaded right?

Can someone direct me to that vid? Thanks.

~Decoy

[margalis]

Oh no it's a Japanese vs. US thread!

The Japanese are just plain better. They enter a tournament on hour home turf with 3 or 4 guys out of the entire field and finish 1st, 2nd, etc. We send our top guys over there and get embarrassed.

As far as competition makes you better - it does to a large degree. When I was in Japan I went into Sega World, which is not a big SF hangout compared to some places. At Sega world I saw the best Zangief player I have ever seen live - a random Japanese businessman. I also saw the best T. Hawk player I've ever seen live - playing the second best T. Hawk player I've seen live!

Even the random "scrubs" were doing routine combo into super. Not hard ones but they were still doing them. This was on a random weekday at 3 in the afternoon.

It's very silly to point at some vids and say "look, these guys made some mistakes." You can do that with ANY match vid. The point is when we play Japan we lose. That makes them better. You have some other metric?

Not only are the top few players in Japan better than the top few here, but the average player in Japan is WAY WAY WAY better than the average player here. An order of magnitude better, no kidding.

[stream3]

Graham you are the one with your facts mixed up. Cole beat Ohnuki who picked up ST like two days before evo (ok not exactly but ohnuki never plays ST, at least not competively in Japan). Cole has been beating them for years? Whenever a legit Japanese threat comes to evo Cole gets beat. When Daigo comes, he wins. When Gian came, he won. When Tokido came with his 2-day old Vega, he beat out a lot of americans and placed in the top three.

The top players of Japan play on a consistent basis. These are the dudes on a level higher than Daigo / Ohnuki. It does make a difference. In comparison US scene just doesn't compare. Hell arcades are barely alive.

I think you've been out of the scene a bit too long. :) If you don't trust my opinion why don't you ask your fellow top players who have actually played japanese players in recent tournaments. Time to move on and steer this thread back to a discussion worth having.

[Him]

I'm talking Cole, Myself, my bro, Choi, Watson, and a few others.

Except for you since you haven't been on the scene, the rest have consistently placed below the japanese. The japanese don't even send their best players over here for ST. They send their CVS and 3S players for the most part and they happen to dabble/play ST and we as Americans still lose. It's amusing to me because I watch you make claims that your techniques have been tested against "the best in the world" when they haven't because they're all in Japan. The only game Americans really beat the Japanese in is Marvel Vs. Capcom 2. I'm not taking anything away from your skill, but your knowledge in this case is incorrect.

EDIT: And cole only won 2k2 IIRC. And he only beat ohnuki. The japanese weren't attending before that and since then Americans haven't won.

[NKI]

Graham - I agree that they made mistakes (even some big ones), but certainly you know that it's hella easy to sit back and point out people's mistakes in vids. Actually beating them, however, is significantly harder.

What track record are you speaking about? I thought cole has been beating them for years and they finally just beat him the last 2 evos?I'm sorry, but I literally laughed out loud when I read that. I dunno if he's been telling you fairy tales, or if you were just misinformed by someone else, but Cole consistently loses to the Japanese. He even loses to their random CvS2 players (Tokido).

Every time Japan sends a real ST player (Daigo, Gian), we lose badly. I dunno if you saw any vids of Gian from last year, but he was clearly way above everyone else.

If anyone, I would hope you value my opinion, being that I lived in Japan and played with them for a year. I'm telling you, they are better than us. And I don't mean a little bit better...I mean a lot better.

More importantly, WTH was there no Blanka play up in there?Komoda Blanka beats Muteki Guile 1st round, loses to Bro Chun 2nd round.

Maybe you're thinking of a different tournament? Perhaps one of the X-MANIA's? I don't think Crayfish uploaded any of The Starting Over. If he did, I'm going to have to yell at him.

[margalis]

What is the link for these vids again? I've looked back over the last 5 pages or so, don't see it.

Also can someone explain the properties of Blanka's backdash? How invincible is it for how long, etc?

[NKI]

margalis - Hopefully these vids have not been uploaded, because the DVD is still for sale. I've never seen them online anywhere.

Blanka's back dash is totally invincible for 13 frames.

[Decoy]

Can somebody give me the contact number to the Japanese Street Fighter Union? :wgrin: Cause it sounds very funny when I hear people say that whenever "they" send their best players, the US players lose. lol

Do "they" hold meetings and discuss which players will come here to kick our respective asses?:wgrin:

~Decoy

[Graham]

alright talked to choi about the results, i guess usa just been sucking at st last few years lol. you guys are right usa sucks in this game =) maybe japan will send some players and we can turn it around this year

[Nick T.]

I'm not going to bother posting anymore on this subject because it looks like everyone has their nose stuck so far up japans ass that they refuse to admit when they lose or make some bullshit excuses for them. Someone who has the records please list the results for the last 7 evo/b5s please.


Japanese started attending B5 and up

B5(2001) Top 3 ST:

1. Cole
2. Choi
3. Valle

*Note
I remember there being 2 Japanese players for this. I don't know names though.


CvS1:
1/2. Jason Nelson/Chikyuu

*Note
I don't remember who got 1st and 2nd, I just know those were top 2.

evo2k2:
ST:
1. Cole
2. Ohnuki
3. Choi
4. Apoc
5. Mester


CvS2:
1. Tokido
2. Ohnuki
3. Choi
4. Valle


evo2k3:

ST:
1. Daigo
2. Ohnuki
3/4/5: Cole/Choi/Valle

*Note
I don't remember exactly where everyone placed. Just giving a rough idea.

CvS2:
1. Ino
2. Daigo



Sorry, the rest is really foggy. Can't remember much. But that's a rough idea of how it goes.

[FMJaguar]

Theres no doubting that japan has a deeper talent pool and a wider variety of players, but tournaments aren't our 20 vs your 20 in a 400 man or where you have to play every character. It's a 1v1 showdown, and you (or anyone really) just have to win one set (or twice if they come back for finals i guess).

It's even easier nowadays when pretty much anyone with a name has their vids all over the net, everyone has tendancies and everyone has weaknesses in their game, not to say they are trivial or even straightforward, but I think it's kind of out there to say that an individual player has no chance to win when half the tools are practically lying around. It's just a matter of when some group of people will feel they are worth using.

Anyway, heres a quick start to the results: http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/History

Japan didn't make a presence that i'm aware of until USA vs Japan I (2000), so it would be that and B5 through evo 2k2002-5.

[ShinjiGohan]

ShinjuGohan - Whoa...how exactly were you counting frames...? I just assumed you were using Kawaks to watch the game frame-by-frame. That's what I'm doing.

I used a programmable controller to first figure out the game stun upon hits (figuring out the frame difference between a perfect 1 frame link that does hit to one that does). Then further compared that with the yoga book to see if my findings where consistent.

From there I recorded some tests of one character attacking another and after the attack lands holding up on the character that got hit to see. Recorded that at 30fps, and then properly deinterlaced the 30 frames from their separate fields to get 60fps. At that point I counted the frames in virtualdub from the first hit stun frame to their first jump frame and subtracted the frame numbers. Then subtracted game stun to get the actual hit stun and block stun.

Sounds like a bit of a hassle but actually isn't too bad

Record at 30fps

play

stop recording

rename file to capture.avi

open cpseperatefield.avs in virtual dub (which is linked to the capture.avi file name)

scroll to the appropriate frame and make a note of the first hit stun and first jump frame

subtract those

then subtract the game stun frame (13) to get the hit stun.

[TS]

For what it's worth, the hitstun/blockstun from SFA3 (taken from the All About Street Fighter Zero 3 book)...I was surprised that they were so similar, for some reason.

HIT:
Light attacks: 13
Medium attacks: 18
Heavy attacks: 22
Jumping attacks: 13

BLOCKED:
Light: 12
Medium: 17
Heavy: 21
Jumping: ??

There's a note for the blocked jumping attacks that I can't read. It's on page 253 if anyone has AASFZ3, oddly enough in the Reversals section).

So yeah, the numbers given before definitely sound familiar...AAZ3 doesn't give numbers for special/super moves, though, and I'm sure there are exceptions which weren't listed.

edit: seems hitstun/blockstun are switched? Hitstun is the longer one, here.

[fatboy]

Snip....


3 things!

1.

Chicyuu over nelson in cvs1 (Won with Radien, used a sick option select (slightly modified) into supers)

Cole 1st in two straight Evo's

(Just talked to Cole in April)

Cole barely lost to Diago on his way to the "three-peet."

He faked Diago with a slide.
Diago threw out a tiger uppercut to punish (missed).
Cole did Yoga Tempest Super with Fierce.
Super did not come out.
S.Fierce came out. (whiffed)
Diago fell from the upper cut and hit his retracting limbs for the (Set) win.

Which is why you should always use jab to exicute your super...LOL

And if I recall(could be totally wrong here), his controller was faulty last year evo.

(Not that he was bitching about it)

He's to cool for that! :cybot:

2.

NKI- When you lose with chun li to Dhalsim... How? What strat does the dhalsim player use?

3.

In the technical vs field debate:

They BOTH have a place.

The best example is in sports.

Think of coaches and players.

Coaches apply the technical knowledge.
Players apply field/ experience knowledge.

You need both win.

The best teams are comprised strongly in both attributes.

Neither truly out weights the other in level of importance.

Professional sports are full of these examples.

I will proved some if you can't think of any :wink:

[evilj]

alright talked to choi about the results, i guess usa just been sucking at st last few years lol. you guys are right usa sucks in this game =) maybe japan will send some players and we can turn it around this year

please win this year. It's impossible for us to win cvs2 or 3s against them, but I BELIEVE! in ST.

Will you be going to the HF tourney in san diego?

http://www.evo2k.com/comiccon/

I want to see you play.

[Kyokuji]

Most of the best Japanese ST players never come over, because that's their only game.
Most of the guys who do are people who are also competing in other games like 3S and CvS2 (Ohnuki, Daigo, Chikyuu, etc), and they're usually only thought of as being low-mid' tier-ish as far as high level ST players go.
Gian's the only high profile ST player I can think of who came over so far.

[Graham]

3 things!

1.

Chicyuu over nelson in cvs1 (Won with Radien, used a sick option select (slightly modified) into supers)

Cole 1st in two straight Evo's

(Just talked to Cole in April)



Thats what i figured was the track record, people who win remember history better than people who dont.

[Adam Warlock]

Thats what i figured was the track record, people who win remember history better than people who dont.

Are you this much of a condescending dickhead in person? You said beating them FOR YEARS which clearly wasn't the case. Even if you want to get literal and say 2= years then...

I thought cole has been beating them for years and they finally just beat him the last 2 evos? Your facts mixed up?
...Cole last won in 2k2. it's 2k6 now right? You do the math.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that they were CASUAL ST players. Not guys who sit at home and play nothing but ST all day like you and your brother. The US is free money for them.

Japanese started attending B5 and up

B5(2001) Top 3 ST:

1. Cole
2. Choi
3. Valle

*Note
I remember there being 2 Japanese players for this. I don't know names though.

You sure? They're not on the DVD if there were.

[FMJaguar]

This conversation is so silly, as i said before as noone read, japan has a deeper and wider pool, but to some degree it's irrelavant, even if they send 20 ST players, half of them will eliminate each other and you'll just have to beat 3-4. ST is still a game, and the game will only allow you to do so much.

The results prove that they are generally on a higher level, but their top and our top are at least on a comparable level, because of their practice and preperation they have pulled out a lot of clutch matches over the pat few years, but those were far from unwinnable, our players just have some work to do if they are going to get there.

I don't know which idea is more ridiculous, saying there's an inescapable tick with no explanation or no proof, Or saying that it's impossible to win a tourney with real players with no explanation or no proof. It's like having the same conversation twice with the sides reversed. People are just getting ridiculous with the way they communicate on the forum (or the way they don't).

Sure noone is just going to walk in off the street and do it day one, but explain why someone can't build a small scene and do it, similar to what FFA did, but improve on their mistakes, it might take forever to know everything and be able to really become a wealth of ST knowledge, but not to win one tournament. Hell some EC ppl may get on a roll and take the whole group out if ppl don't watch themselves =P.

People are taking a game and a competition and turning it into a religion at this point.

[NKI]

Sounds like a bit of a hassle but actually isn't too badWow, that does sound like a bit of a hassle. :confused: Wouldn't it just be easier (and probably more accurate) to just count frame by frame with Kawaks?

B5(2001) Top 3 ST:

1. Cole
2. Choi
3. Valle

*Note
I remember there being 2 Japanese players for this. I don't know names though.I know Chikyuu entered the ST tournament 'cause I specifically remember his match with Big Ross from Texas. Ross was Blanka, and he lost to repeated Typhoon ticks from T.Hawk in the corner. Some of the ST players were saying "Man, that sucks...there's no way out of that for Blanka". Back then, I don't think people knew about Blanka's reversals...

When you lose with chun li to Dhalsim... How? What strat does the dhalsim player use?When I lose that match, it's usually due to:
-getting harrassed with Noogies
-getting put in the corner
-getting too greedy/predictable with my jumping or with my super

Chun can jump at Dhalsim a lot because of her j.Forward, but if you start to get predictable, he can do jump back Fierce to counter you cleanly, or even Yoga Blast if you're too close. Also, against Dhalsim players, for some reason I tend to not use my super very well. I can't use the super as anti-air (to ground him when he lands) because Sim has the drills, so he can control when he lands, and most Sim players stop throwing Yoga Fires as soon as I get meter, unlike the Ryus, O.Sagats, Guiles, etc, who keep throwing fireballs.

please win this year. It's impossible for us to win cvs2 or 3s against them, but I BELIEVE! in ST.I would say ST/AE is the game that we stand the best chance in, simply because they usually don't send any of their top players. Maybe this year someone will actually beat Daigo.

I don't know which idea is more ridiculous, saying there's an inescapable tick with no explanation or no proof, Or saying that it's impossible to win a tourney with real players with no explanation or no proof.:confused:...? There's plenty of proof. Look at the results (or better yet, the vids) of any tourney where we faced real Japanese ST players. Last year, people were getting mauled by Gian, both in the singles, and in the team tourney. And he's just one player...imagine if they sent 3 or 4...

I'm saying that right now, with our current skill level, we can not beat Japan's best in ST. If we got all our top players together and actually practiced, maybe we could...

[Graham]

Are you this much of a condescending dickhead in person? You said beating them FOR YEARS which clearly wasn't the case. Even if you want to get literal and say 2= years then...

...Cole last won in 2k2. it's 2k6 now right? You do the math.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that they were CASUAL ST players. Not guys who sit at home and play nothing but ST all day like you and your brother. The US is free money for them.


You sure? They're not on the DVD if there were.

This is why i asked someone who knew. You dont even know yet you're willign to call me a dickhead off of something you arent sure of.

I'm still unsure how many evos there has been, choi told me 4 last night, cole said he won 2 evos, i know before evo he won all the b5 b4 etc (read years). As for the skill of the players, im not talking about the players who are still in japan for this current argument, im talking about the ones who have come over. I'm not interested in excuses why they lost, i just want to know how many times they've won and which years they were. From what i'm assuming they won last 2 evos, can someone please clarify?

Maybe this year someone will actually beat Daigo.


Because he wins every year right? /sarcasm off


There's plenty of proof. Look at the results (or better yet, the vids) of any tourney where we faced real Japanese ST players. We got beat badly. And I don't think I need to go into the explanation...everyone already knows why they're better.

Wait when did we face real st players? i thought you keep saying their real players never came over except for gian (1 evo)?

As for the arguments about who is better, what if arguments are always stupid so lets drop it. Someday maybe US players might travel to japan to play in the bi-annual x-mania tournaments to truly see who is better.

[ShinjiGohan]

Wow, that does sound like a bit of a hassle. :confused: Wouldn't it just be easier (and probably more accurate) to just count frame by frame with Kawaks?

Well I'm not to familar with the finer points of kawaks (assuming frame stepping, macros etc...). but seeing how I essentially use most of those aspects when making a video (points to avatar for the game lol), I'm accustomed to it so it probably wouldn't be any easier.

But how where you counting frames in kawaks. Presumably on the first frame of hit stun, to what point? You timing a reversal so you don't get that proximity blocking after a hit or block? Or talking forward or jumping?

Well just drive 300 miles up to chicago again and I can show you personally how I do it lol.

Another question, I know in some of the present games you get added hit stun bonus if they're ducking when the move hits, is that prevelent in ST as well?

[NKI]

Because he wins every year right?I am pretty sure Daigo has gotten first every year he's entered ST...

Wait when did we face real st players? i thought you keep saying their real players never came over except for gian (1 evo)?Right, Gian is the only real ST player to come here, but we went there twice that I know of. Once for the USA vs. Japan (the 5-on-5), and once for SBO1. Both times we lost. I know I'm not the best player in America, but I entered a few tourneys over there and got smoked every time.

Well, I did win a team tourney with Yuu Vega, but he did all the work. :bluu:

As for the arguments about who is better, what if arguments are always stupid so lets drop it. Someday maybe US players might travel to japan to play in the bi-annual x-mania tournaments to truly see who is better.Both of those sound like excellent ideas. :smile:

But how where you counting frames in kawaks. Presumably on the first frame of hit stun, to what point? You timing a reversal so you don't get that proximity blocking after a hit or block? Or talking forward or jumping?For hit stun, you can just do it visually. For block stun, you have to do a reversal.

Another question, I know in some of the present games you get added hit stun bonus if they're ducking when the move hits, is that prevelent in ST as well?Yes, that exists. That's why the opponent must be ducking for Ryu to combo his rush punch or overhead after a jumping attack.

[brian]

Quick point regarding the discussion a few pages back.

I don't see why there's a mashing problem for charge characters against noogies.

When I'm in a noogie as Guile, I mash the buttons, and move the stick from Down left to Down right. This way I never lose my charge.

Is the game not recognizing this as good mashing or something?

[Graham]

I am pretty sure Daigo has gotten first every year he's entered ST...

Jason Cole: I won the last B5 tourney, the very next tourney was the first evolution. That year i was defending my title and beat Ohnuki. Then next year I lost to Diago, following year was when i let Kuni slip by and he end up beasting everyone and choi lost to daigo that year. Then last year was when I lost to Giant (sim player) and then in top 8 lost to Tokido

Quick point regarding the discussion a few pages back.

I don't see why there's a mashing problem for charge characters against noogies.

When I'm in a noogie as Guile, I mash the buttons, and move the stick from Down left to Down right. This way I never lose my charge.

Is the game not recognizing this as good mashing or something?

If you mash properly you should be able to break noogie in 2 noogies. If you try that technique it doesnt help really, only fakes your opponent into thinking you're uncharged if they watch your controller, but any smart player will see themselves get 6-8 noogies and know you didnt lose charge.

[Maj]

B4 ST Results = 1st Watson, 2nd Valle, 3rd Choi, 4th Shirts, 5th Cole

OG Linkage: http://www.shoryuken.com/b4/

Watson won B4, Cole won B5 and Evo2k2, Daigo won Evo2k3 and Evo2k4, and Gian won Evo2k5. Gian had a lot of close calls on the way, but nobody could get the job done. I'm always cheering for Watson and Valle to do well but lately (last few years) they haven't been practicing much. At any rate it's not like any of these players are unbeatable. It's unlikely that the US will win if 3-4 Japanese ST experts show up but far from impossible provided people actually get together and practice. I mean the US actually got good at ST at one point. It's not like we're talking about A3 where we have no shot whatsoever.

[stream3]

daigo didn't go to evo last year.

[r3ko]

but looks like hes coming this year.

Anyway i don't know why some people are getting agitated by all this. If anything the hsf tourney at evo could possibly be the best sf2 tournament in recent times. We will prob see alot of CE/HF/ST matchups, some upsets, 2 old school pros return to the scene, and a fair amount of Japanese players taking part hopefully.

For the sf2 scene in general it would be good to see to on the wolfe bros win. This would show that the US and other countries that we are not passed our sell by date. It would show old schoolers that its worth coming out of retirement, and encourage current og and newer players to raise their game.

Also Japan may take notice, if any of their players fail to win or take top spots. They may send some true top sf2 players for evo07. SF2 not just ST is in a good position for a big revival if things go well at evo. Who knows there might even be a 5v5 between US and Japan next year, which imo would be the star event.

[Footsy Bebop]

Hi,

I've got a Zangief Question.

From CE on, Zangief's SPD started going up in a diagonal direction. Can you control which way the SPD goes? Like if you do the joystick motion clockwise or counterclockwise, does that affect the direction of the SPD? or is it a matter of using the jab, strong or punch buttons? I'm just asking because sometimes I do the SPD and it actually goes diagonally away from the corner, making it more difficult to repeat.

That's one of the advantages of his kick button SPD, it always goes in the same direction and lets you keep the opponent in the corner.

[ShinjiGohan]

from my limited experience it may have to do with what point you finish up the SPD motion. Say you do the f,df,d,db,b,ub+p it tends to float you backward. If you do the full 360 to tends to move forward. I think at least ^.^

Wolfe bros would probably be more sure though.

[NKI]

Graham - Maybe I didn't word it very clearly the first time. What I meant was, every time Daigo has come to Evo, he's gotten first in ST.

[Graham]

Hi,

I've got a Zangief Question.

From CE on, Zangief's SPD started going up in a diagonal direction. Can you control which way the SPD goes? Like if you do the joystick motion clockwise or counterclockwise, does that affect the direction of the SPD? or is it a matter of using the jab, strong or punch buttons? I'm just asking because sometimes I do the SPD and it actually goes diagonally away from the corner, making it more difficult to repeat.

That's one of the advantages of his kick button SPD, it always goes in the same direction and lets you keep the opponent in the corner.

SPD is same as throws, whatever direction you're holding when you press the button is the way the throw (not grabs) sends the opponent.

I am uncertain if you do extra motion on the stick, like say a 360 and a half if it counts the last inputs or if it counts the first when selecting a direction. I'd assume last. I forgot if its 6 or 7 notches to do the spd. I do a walking spd from neutral to f, df, d, db, b, neutral, f.

[Best Kind Boxer]

Not sure about ST-arcade, but I remember SPD always straying to the left by befault (so does his MP throw if you don't hold a direction) in HSF2. By default I mean ending at :u: or :d:

If you end the motion at :uf: , :r: , or :df: it will then stray to the right instead.

I could be remembering wrong, try it and let me know if I am. :P

[Footsy Bebop]

I do a walking spd from neutral to f, df, d, db, b, neutral, f.

you don't have to do ub, u, uf? I thought it was a total 360 motion?

Just wondering, who wins ST Balrog vs. Gief? Gief should, shouldn't he?

[polarity]

SPD is same as throws, whatever direction you're holding when you press the button is the way the throw (not grabs) sends the opponent.

I am uncertain if you do extra motion on the stick, like say a 360 and a half if it counts the last inputs or if it counts the first when selecting a direction. I'd assume last. I forgot if its 6 or 7 notches to do the spd. I do a walking spd from neutral to f, df, d, db, b, neutral, f.

That motion doesn't work, there has to be an up input in there somewhere (I was pretty sure but I justed tested to verify). The requirements for the SPD input are that you hit all the directions: u, r, d, l starting from any position on the stick, going clockwise or counter-clockwise. Testing in Kawaks shows that you can just do u, r, d, l+p and get the SPD.

[Old School Kid]

hmm. This is my first video and ST character tutorial done in 1 day. http://www.combovideos.com/page.php?id=1310.

[Adam Warlock]

This is why i asked someone who knew. You dont even know yet you're willign to call me a dickhead off of something you arent sure of.

No I'm not. I'm SURE you were being condescending and I called you a dickhead for it. No uncertainty there. Now I'm SURE you have an issue with comprehension because you're misunderstanding very simple things. How did you arrive at the conclusion that I don't know? As stated before, at MOST Cole won over the Japanese in 2 "evo" events. Japanese took the last three. I'm done with addressing this because it's off topic.

[Alphastorm]

I don't think he's being condescending as much as he is cocky. He sounds like some kid from 7-11 who just beat out his whole block and now claims to be the next world champ. It would be exciting to see him face off against the japanese. Can't hardly wait!

[Crayfish]

hmm. This is my first video and ST character tutorial done in 1 day. http://www.combovideos.com/page.php?id=1310.
Really nice work m8. Finaly a tutorial vid for SF2. I always amazed me that its taken so long for tutorials to appear for SF2. Ever since I first saw a combovido, I thought right away, they should do tactics videos for SF2 not combo ones ...well 5years on here we are finaly ;)!!
Hope this is the first of many. I mean really, every matchup in SF2 could have its own tutorial, its such a rich game.


Crayfish.

[Crayfish]

Can't hardly wait!
Thing is, Gian or anyother specialist SF2 players are not confirmed to come this year m8, so better get used to it....

I think alot of people are taking this a bit the wrong way, all the oldschool players prided themselves as much for trashtalking and rubbing people up the wrong way as they did for thier skills. The same exact thing happened when Jeff Schaeffer came back, ..remember?
I wouldn't take everything they say at face value, especialy that stuff abt the Japanese being sloppy on matchups etc...:wgrin:
Props to the Wolfe's for hyping up the US vs Japan for the finals, it should be the most dramatic for years.


Crayfish.

[Graham]

No I'm not. I'm SURE you were being condescending and I called you a dickhead for it. No uncertainty there. Now I'm SURE you have an issue with comprehension because you're misunderstanding very simple things. How did you arrive at the conclusion that I don't know? As stated before, at MOST Cole won over the Japanese in 2 "evo" events. Japanese took the last three. I'm done with addressing this because it's off topic.

I was trying to figure out where this unknown hostility came from and why you're calling me condescending, i realized it now, you misunderstood what i said. I said people who win remember history better than people who dont, you assumed i was saying 'winners like me' remmeber things better than 'losers like you'. What I meant was: cole would remember his wins better than other people. Technically 2 years in a row is for years, but in either case I was wrong about how many wins cole had, i thought he had 3 when he only had 2. Anyway lets not fight over miscommunication.

On another note, me and my brother DONT sit around all day playing st. When we practice its maybe 2 hours and its like 2-3 times a week. Before I restarted playing in feb with my bro, it has been 10 years since both of us played.

[margalis]

Japanese are better. Discussion over. Top players better. Average players better. Scrubs better than our scrubs. This is totally obvious from results and even more obvious if you actually go to Japan where the average scrub will hit you with crossup, low strong, low forward, fireball perfectly 3 times in a row.

Please move on to a more exciting topic!

[Gen-An]

Japanese are better. Discussion over. Top players better. Average players better. Scrubs better than our scrubs. This is totally obvious from results and even more obvious if you actually go to Japan where the average scrub will hit you with crossup, low strong, low forward, fireball perfectly 3 times in a row.

Please move on to a more exciting topic!

That doesn't sound like a scrub technique, US or Japan. Scrubs would probably say crossups are cheap.

[JumpsuitJesse]

As for the arguments about who is better, what if arguments are always stupid so lets drop it. Someday maybe US players might travel to japan to play in the bi-annual x-mania tournaments to truly see who is better.

Graham, that is the best thing I have read lately in this thread. NKI, think you can set something up for the US players to start planning on? This idea has alot of merit

[Graham]

Japanese are better. Discussion over. Top players better. Average players better. Scrubs better than our scrubs. This is totally obvious from results and even more obvious if you actually go to Japan where the average scrub will hit you with crossup, low strong, low forward, fireball perfectly 3 times in a row.

Please move on to a more exciting topic!

...

God doesn't exist, discussion over.

*rolls eyes*


Graham, that is the best thing I have read lately in this thread. NKI, think you can set something up for the US players to start planning on? This idea has alot of merit

Actually my brother and I have been planning to go there for months for their nationals. If we win evo finals we will prolly use some of that money to fly there. The only problem is both my brother and i are more comfortable with american sticks, we can use japanese sticks ,just not at 100% effectiveness. NKI if you'd like to share some information on dates, i've heard its oct/sept time for the nationals for them for st.

Linking some matchups my bro uploaded to youtube since the main page is flooded.

Alex vs Chen in winners bracket: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmL__TM4Ons

Alex comeback vs Valle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCuZ3b7GuKc

Grand Finals first set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIKCBMu2zVo

Grand Finals second set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOqIopenIBM

[JumpsuitJesse]

Actually my brother and I have been planning to go there for months for their nationals. If we win evo finals we will prolly use some of that money to fly there. The only problem is both my brother and i are more comfortable with american sticks, we can use japanese sticks ,just not at 100% effectiveness. NKI if you'd like to share some information on dates, i've heard its oct/sept time for the nationals for them for st.

Not to stray too far off topic but my local friends and I had the same complaints about not being able to get used to Japanese sticks(square gates, round ball tops) but we found that Seimitsu makes a really good quality stick(LS-5601)and you can use an american style bat top on it. Feels just like an american stick in your hands but with better precision than a Happ. Of course we use octagon restrictor plates too to help out.

When USA players went there for SBO they were kind enough to accomodate our players with a cab that had Happ sticks in it. So if enough of us actually go they may be willing to do it again.

[Adam Warlock]

SNIP
Shit. My bad. I apologize then.

[SaveFighting]

...

Alex comeback vs Valle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCuZ3b7GuKc

Wow, that come back was amazing. If I did not know better I would swear that just a big setup by the two players. CE Bison getting beat like that was too good. :rofl:

[margalis]

That doesn't sound like a scrub technique, US or Japan. Scrubs would probably say crossups are cheap.

That's my point. In Japan random scrubs will land that combo. I didn't see a single player in Japan I would consider a scrub or even *average* by US standards.

Anyway, nice vids! It makes me happy when people actually know matchups and do things like use standing jab to counter jumpins.

[Maj]

What's it going to take for Valle to learn how to do a combo? It's just painful to watch.

[Graham]

What's it going to take for Valle to learn how to do a combo? It's just painful to watch.

Some people can never be pleased no matter how good players play, but in either case the rounds he missed his combos he still won so it didnt affect the match much.

[Maj]

It's not about being impressed. I'm already impressed by everyone in those vids. It's just disheartening to watch him throw away matches after he's worked so hard to create an opening.

What i meant was that as his friend, it's painful for me to watch Valle fuck up the easy shit.

For example Valle (Sagat) lost to ComboFiend (Rock) in CvS2 cuz he kept jumping back when ComboFiend did the dashing elbow thing like three times in a row. Rock would go right under Sagat and all Valle had to do was hit j.LK for the crossup and land a combo. Instead he kept hitting j.HK and it missed Rock completely. Anyone that's practiced for 2 minutes would know what to do there, but Valle just keeps ghetto'ing it up.

[Alphastorm]

Some people can never be pleased no matter how good players play, but in either case the rounds he missed his combos he still won so it didnt affect the match much.

We can say that about your comment on how the japanese play. Hypocrite! j/k

[SaveFighting]

It's not about being impressed. I'm already impressed by everyone in those vids. It's just disheartening to watch him throw away matches after he's worked so hard to create an opening.

What i meant was that as his friend, it's painful for me to watch Valle fuck up the easy shit.

For example Valle (Sagat) lost to ComboFiend (Rock) in CvS2 cuz he kept jumping back when ComboFiend did the dashing elbow thing like three times in a row. Rock would go right under Sagat and all Valle had to do was hit j.LK for the crossup and land a combo. Instead he kept hitting j.HK and it missed Rock completely. Anyone that's practiced for 2 minutes would know what to do there, but Valle just keeps ghetto'ing it up.

Practiced for 2 mins? Come on now. Pulling a combo off in training and then a proper 'high pressure' match is easier said then done.

That said he looked like he was relying on how broken CE Bison is to get him the win. All Alex.W needed was a slight opening and he just unleashed a pretty freaky come back. I would say 99% of the time with that much health left it was locked in win for Valle , but his opponent just looked like he was in the “zone”.

BTW, could someone tell me what console they were playing SFAC on for the EVO West Tournament?

[Maj]

Um, it's not like Valle is some amateur choking under pressure. If he took the time to actually learn the combo (CE Bison Scissor Kick followups or jump-in timing) or the game (he's never taken the time to get comfortable with CvS2), he could easily do it in a high-stakes match. But he just doesn't practice nearly as much as the old days so he has a lot of these moments where he has a free shot and decides to give it away in the most creative way possible.

Also, i'm pretty sure CE Bison gets raped by Dhalsim once he gets locked in Dhalsim's noogie trap. It's not some even 50/50 mindgame. Dhalsim has a heavy advantage in that situation because CE Bison has no reversal whatsoever and Dhalsim's throw has significantly more range. Alex Wolfe knows how to play a lot of characters. If he didn't feel confident in ST-Dhalsim's chances against CE-Bison, he would have picked someone else.

[Graham]

Um, it's not like Valle is some amateur choking under pressure. If he took the time to actually learn the combo (CE Bison Scissor Kick followups or jump-in timing) or the game (he's never taken the time to get comfortable with CvS2), he could easily do it in a high-stakes match. But he just doesn't practice nearly as much as the old days so he has a lot of these moments where he has a free shot and decides to give it away in the most creative way possible.

Also, i'm pretty sure CE Bison gets raped by Dhalsim once he gets locked in Dhalsim's noogie trap. It's not some even 50/50 mindgame. Dhalsim has a heavy advantage in that situation because CE Bison has no reversal whatsoever and Dhalsim's throw has significantly more range. Alex Wolfe knows how to play a lot of characters. If he didn't feel confident in ST-Dhalsim's chances against CE-Bison, he would have picked someone else.

Actually the match is in bisons favor, my brother is just very good at that throw technique, which is basically dhalsims only chance at victory vs bison. But i guarantee you no one in the US can do it like my brother does. That tick is EXTREMELY difficult to time right. All bison needs is one scissor kick to win the round as well, its not like bison has to struggle.

[SaveFighting]

Um, it's not like Valle is some amateur choking under pressure. If he took the time to actually learn the combo (CE Bison Scissor Kick followups or jump-in timing) or the game (he's never taken the time to get comfortable with CvS2), he could easily do it in a high-stakes match. But he just doesn't practice nearly as much as the old days so he has a lot of these moments where he has a free shot and decides to give it away in the most creative way possible.

I'm not saying he is an amateur. All I was trying to get across was that not just anyone can learn a combo and apply it to a real world match in 2 mins.

I would find it interesting to read Valle's views on this match.

Also, i'm pretty sure CE Bison gets raped by Dhalsim once he gets locked in Dhalsim's noogie trap. It's not some even 50/50 mindgame. Dhalsim has a heavy advantage in that situation because CE Bison has no reversal whatsoever and Dhalsim's throw has significantly more range. Alex Wolfe knows how to play a lot of characters. If he didn't feel confident in ST-Dhalsim's chances against CE-Bison, he would have picked someone else.

The thing is Majestros that a lot of "freaky" things happened in that match. I have watched it a few times now two of the key events I found amazing about the comeback are.

1) He gets out of that dizzy at freakishly fast rate and blocks just as the kick is about to land

2) Two hit from the second noogie at the end takes off an absurd amount of health

I'm not trying to make up excuses or anything for Valle I just think the match and comeback was amazing on many levels. Well done to A.Wolfe he really played his ass off in the end.

[margalis]

Bison has pretty good throw range, it looked to me like most of the tick throws that Alex got were reversible. A lot of them were at point-blank range.

I was going to say the same thing as above - it looked like Valle didn't know the game all that well and was relying heavily on CE Bison's attributes to carry the match for him.

Especially when he was under any kind of pressure, he just went for torpedo or scissor kick over and over again where certain other options might have been better.

And to be 100% clear, I'm not ragging on Valle at all, who is an all-around awesome player and probably the best overall Capcom player of the last decade. (And was quite good at Tekken too for a while)

He just didn't look to be that familiar with AE in general.

[SpinalBlood]

Any news of x-mania vids?

[Graham]

Bison has pretty good throw range, it looked to me like most of the tick throws that Alex got were reversible. A lot of them were at point-blank range.

I was going to say the same thing as above - it looked like Valle didn't know the game all that well and was relying heavily on CE Bison's attributes to carry the match for him.

Especially when he was under any kind of pressure, he just went for torpedo or scissor kick over and over again where certain other options might have been better.

And to be 100% clear, I'm not ragging on Valle at all, who is an all-around awesome player and probably the best overall Capcom player of the last decade. (And was quite good at Tekken too for a while)

He just didn't look to be that familiar with AE in general.

The cheap is irreversible if done right, doesnt matter what it looks like.

As for being unfamiliar, you dont get third place in an all og tournament by getting lucky. He practiced with watson. Watch some of his other matches with other players to see how familiar he was. Him and Watson had a secret weapon for this tourney, it was bison =P

[Maj]

Hm, i wonder which characters the Japanese players are going to use. Whether they'll go for the old characters' crazy damage or stick with the ST characters' vast arsenals of options.

Graham: How would you rank the characters in SFAE? I don't want to waste your time asking for a complete ranking of all 80+ characters. Maybe just the top 10.

[Khiempossible]

about the tutorial vid, what do you do when fei's opponent reversal throws you on wakeup consistenly? can he pressure without being vulnerable to that reversal?

[Graham]

about the tutorial vid, what do you do when fei's opponent reversal throws you on wakeup consistenly? can he pressure without being vulnerable to that reversal?

I hate being hit by reversals but what ive consistently found that works on any good player is low fierce early, aint nobody getting a reversal through that, and if it hits do triple rekkas and they're dizzy sometimes.

As for top rated chars someone asked me that question last night so ill list a rough list, keep in mind it might not be perfectly accurate but if you're looking for good chars to play itll help.

CE Bison, WW Guile, CE Guile, ST Dhalsim ST Balrog, ST Chun, CE Sagat, HF Ryu, HF Gief

[Gen-An]

That's my point. In Japan random scrubs will land that combo. I didn't see a single player in Japan I would consider a scrub or even *average* by US standards.

Anyway, nice vids! It makes me happy when people actually know matchups and do things like use standing jab to counter jumpins.

I think it's an insult to refer to unknown players as "scrubs" since scrub has more to do with a narrow mindset involving stupid rules about "cheapness" than skill level.

[Gen-An]

I hate being hit by reversals but what ive consistently found that works on any good player is low fierce early, aint nobody getting a reversal through that, and if it hits do triple rekkas and they're dizzy sometimes.

As for top rated chars someone asked me that question last night so ill list a rough list, keep in mind it might not be perfectly accurate but if you're looking for good chars to play itll help.

CE Bison, WW Guile, CE Guile, ST Dhalsim ST Balrog, ST Chun, CE Sagat, HF Ryu, HF Gief

By "aint nobody getting a reversal through that" I'm assuming you really mean "no one consistently reverses" it...

[Gen-An]

Random question...why wasn't the music in HSF2 set to CPS2?

[Footsy Bebop]

Graham, any way you could post the other SFAE vids on youtube? the download off of shoryuken is horrible.

[polarity]

Random question...why wasn't the music in HSF2 set to CPS2?

Seriously, it seems like such a petty thing to take issue with, but that horrible music REALLY threw me off :confused:

[NKI]

Jesse and Graham (and Alex?) - If you guys are serious about going, I'll help you out in every way that I can. They haven't announced any of the details yet, but I'll post up once I know the date.

What's it going to take for Valle to learn how to do a combo? It's just painful to watch.I was even more concerned with why he jumped at Alex Wolfe when he was dizzy. What combo was he going for? I would have thought he'd do whiff slide while charging down/back, cr.Jab x2->st.Jab xx Scissor Kicks, cr.Strong, st.RH. If that doesn't kill, it will redizzy.

Any news of x-mania vids?What vids?

Re: [Noogie, slide, repeat] vs. DicThe cheap is irreversible if done right, doesnt matter what it looks like.Oh no, not this again!! :annoy::bluu::wasted::shake::sad:

You can get out by doing reversal throw as you're landing, before the slide hits.

But let me guess...when Dic gets the throw, it's only because the Sim player messed up...? :bluu:

Hm, i wonder which characters the Japanese players are going to use. Whether they'll go for the old characters' crazy damage or stick with the ST characters' vast arsenals of options.I'd be willing to bet they'll play their signature characters. Except for Yuu Vega. I hear he used to play a FILTHY CE Dic back in the day...

what ive consistently found that works on any good player is low fierce early, aint nobody getting a reversal through thatFrom this sentence, it sounds to me like you feel that certain meaties are "easier" or "harder" to reverse than others. Am I reading that correctly...? :confused:

CE Bison, WW Guile, CE Guile, ST Dhalsim ST Balrog, ST Chun, CE Sagat, HF Ryu, HF GiefHrm, I'm kind of surprised you ranked ST Chun so high. Any particular reason? In ST, I'd rank her top of the middle tier, but in AE, I'd rank her lower. Maybe middle or bottom of the middle tier, because she gains like 10 new bad matches (CE/HF Ryu/Ken, CE Guile, CE Sagat, CE Dic, HF Boxer, HF Blanka, etc).

Random question...why wasn't the music in HSF2 set to CPS2?Agreed. I'd much rather listen to the original CPS2 music.

[Gen-An]

I was even more concerned with why he jumped at Alex Wolfe when he was dizzy. What combo was he going for? I would have thought he'd do whiff slide while charging down/back, cr.Jab x2->st.Jab xx Scissor Kicks, cr.Strong, st.RH. If that doesn't kill, it will redizzy.


I can only guess that Valle was thinking about ST Bison or something. Like you said, that's the automatic combo of choice on a dizzy opponent with CE Bison. There were also occasions where he landed a Knee Press vs Sim and didn't link the c. Str, s. RH for the instant dizzy. We all know Valle is better than that match shows; maybe he isn't used to playing CE Bison?

[A_Wolfe]

I know there is alot of yapping about Valle not landing some combos. That is true, that did happen, but he also won alot of those rounds anyway!!! Also, the last round there was no doulbe kick or combo opportunity. Both of us played solid and I made a huge comeback. Thought is was a great match, one for the books. ;) I hope I'm not the only one who appreciated that moment. Being able to do that on stage, against a great player, when people are going ape shit its pretty tough. lol

it looked to me like most of the tick throws that Alex got were reversible.
Originally Posted by NKI
Re: [Noogie, slide, repeat] vs. DicOh no, not this again!!

With excellent timing, the Dhalsim cheaps are irreversible. Make sure I don't slap one on ya! lol jk.
NKI, this has nothing to do with start/end frames, etc. The range is why dhalsim can grab and you can't reverse. You realize this was a foward slide? When I do ducking foward grab in the corner, it is also irreversible because of the range. I think its a bad idea to shut down these tricks when you don't know how they work, why they work, or how to do them. There are sometimes mulitple factors in a cheap, including range, frames, footspeed, etc. that contribute to a cheap being irreversible.

[Graham]

Re: [Noogie, slide, repeat] vs. DicOh no, not this again!! :annoy::bluu::wasted::shake::sad:

You can get out by doing reversal throw as you're landing, before the slide hits.

But let me guess...when Dic gets the throw, it's only because the Sim player messed up...? :bluu:

Ok if you believe reversals are ALWAYS doable then why does japan block deep jumpins on wakeup? if they're so good how come a deep jumpin always works? This contradicts your rules about reversal attack. watch rog vs rog daigo match on the dvd for yoga book, grab, jumping short. Why isnt he using balrogs headbutt to escape?

I personally believe reversal wakeup isnt always consistent, certain moves will override it. as in jumpins with certain buttons when deep, ground attacks when timed right so they are equally deep. Are you saying somehow jump attacks get a magical stop reversal property but ground attacks do not?

I dont think the slides throw box is within bisons range either when he is getting up. But you're free to try NKI, ive tried hundreds of times and have had success 0 times, i guess im just really shitty at this game.

Oh why valle jumped at him, he had so little life left any jumpin attack plus a standing roundhouse woulda killed him, much easier combo than possibly mistiming the slide and hitting him on wakeup, or messing up the redizzy combo.

[FullMetalRoss]

My thought on why people don't always go for reversals is no matter how good you are no matter how long you've played, reversals are still 1 frame, and it's still possible to mess it up. So you have to weigh the risk reward in your head do I go for that 1 frame reversal? or should I take the throw and see what happens? The game would be way less fun if most tick traps couldn't be reversed. I would stop playing if thats how it was.

Also I notice against you your brother mixed it up more. I think he figured you could hit the reversal between the slide and the noogie, so he went for the slide into the low forward (short?) into yoga fire.

sorry if that didn't make much sense I'll clarify if there's something I said that didn't make sense.... sometimes I can't tell when I type if I'm being clear.

Also I'd like to say to you too, good shit, Alex did a good job at fending off CE Dic, he's a dirty character and you did really well! Also your guys finals were amazing. Alex that was a crazy dizzy shake!

[A_Wolfe]

My thought on why people don't always go for reversals is no matter how good you are no matter how long you've played, reversals are still 1 frame, and it's still possible to mess it up. So you have to weigh the risk reward in your head do I go for that 1 frame reversal? or should I take the throw and see what happens? The game would be way less fun if most tick traps couldn't be reversed. I would stop playing if thats how it was.

Also I notice against you your brother mixed it up more. I think he figured you could hit the reversal between the slide and the noogie, so he went for the slide into the low forward (short?) into yoga fire.

sorry if that didn't make much sense I'll clarify if there's something I said that didn't make sense.... sometimes I can't tell when I type if I'm being clear.

Also I'd like to say to you too, good shit, Alex did a good job at fending off CE Dic, he's a dirty character and you did really well! Also your guys finals were amazing. Alex that was a crazy dizzy shake!

Just to be clear. The reason I did not kill him with a noogie is I was in position to kill him with a move that is much easier to time. (foward slide, into low foward, fireball). I actually thought he was going to try and reverse and this would have killed him. I could have grabbed him again no doubt, but under the circumstances, I have to say I was a little nervous. lol.

Anyway, thanks for the comment. I was suprised at that dizzy shake when I saw it on video. I knew it was fast, but I didn't think it was that fast. :lovin:

[jaminbenjamin]

Graham - it's obvious that you and your brother are very solid players. After watching the vids, it's painfully clear that both of you guys miss a LOT of stuff, so you need to come down off your high horse about "pro level" and Japanese players. You really are just being amazingly hypocritical. Also, Graham, your Boxer is good, but I've played Seth's quite a bit and believe he's got a much more solid game (when he crosses his hands the right way) and he DOESN'T have a raging case of super-itis like you do.

As for the irreverible ticks, you can't prove it's irreversible, so just STOP SAYING IT. Then NKI won't have to say it is reversible. Just say that it's VERY HARD to get out... Jeez

[A_Wolfe]

Graham - it's obvious that you and your brother are very solid players. After watching the vids, it's painfully clear that both of you guys miss a LOT of stuff, so you need to come down off your high horse about "pro level" and Japanese players. You really are just being amazingly hypocritical. Also, Graham, your Boxer is good, but I've played Seth's quite a bit and believe he's got a much more solid game (when he crosses his hands the right way) and he DOESN'T have a raging case of super-itis like you do.

As for the irreverible ticks, you can't prove it's irreversible, so just STOP SAYING IT. Then NKI won't have to say it is reversible. Just say that it's VERY HARD to get out... Jeez

No offense to Seth (Who's Balrog is very good). But you are smoking. His rog is not on the same level. Did I miss something or did Graham win EVO WEST??? Were all the U.S. greats there (including Seth)? uh...YES. I mean where do you come out with this kind of rediculous stuff.

As for the cheap not being irreversible. He has his point, and i have some very good ones too. Furthermore, he has done no game testing on this cheap, he doens't even know how to do the cheap. Lets please take that into consideration.

[Graham]

One more vid, finally came through for my brother after 2 days of trying.

Graham vs Alex Wolfe, top of winners bracket: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoBc4IN8H2Q

This is the one where i made a comeback with a level 6 turnaround punch.

[Maj]

I know there is alot of yapping about Valle not landing some combos. That is true, that did happen, but he also won alot of those rounds anyway!!! Also, the last round there was no doulbe kick or combo opportunity. Both of us played solid and I made a huge comeback. Thought is was a great match, one for the books. ;) I hope I'm not the only one who appreciated that moment. Being able to do that on stage, against a great player, when people are going ape shit its pretty tough. lol
No doubt. Definately a great match and a great comeback. Watching those vids i can definately tell you guys are very familiar with every aspect of the game and that you don't really have any weaknesses. Nobody is saying that your win was a fluke. I'd just like to see Valle land a combo once every few weeks. You can still win the match if you want, haha.

Ok if you believe reversals are ALWAYS doable then why does japan block deep jumpins on wakeup? if they're so good how come a deep jumpin always works? This contradicts your rules about reversal attack. watch rog vs rog daigo match on the dvd for yoga book, grab, jumping short. Why isnt he using balrogs headbutt to escape?
That's an irrelevant example. If timed right, that's actually a perfect meaty attack against some characters. It's totally a special case. That's why they're called "free jump-ins."

In Rog vs Rog, since the headbutt has 11 frames of startup, it's really easy to get it to work. You just time it so that the jump-in hits on the last possible instant before Rog lands. Either the opponent will get hit, block, or attempt a headbutt which will take too long to come out and by then you'll have landed and you can block it. Obviously he can't attempt a throw because you're still in the air. This sort of thing is a lot more difficult to do against Ken because his DP has a 1-2 frame startup. It's free offense, but of course you need a knockdown or a hold to set it up. The opponent can still do reversal attack every time, but it won't hit anything.

[ShinjiGohan]

Random question...why wasn't the music in HSF2 set to CPS2?

I rather liked the music, reminds me of when I had my 3DO copy of ST.

[Graham]

That's an irrelevant example. If timed right, that's actually a perfect meaty attack against some characters. It's totally a special case. That's why they're called "free jump-ins."

Had a long discussion with choi about proving anything in a fighting game and he made me realize neither side can actually prove their shit without a doubt. There are too many factors involved.

I guess my biggest gripe in this entire thread is people saying false statements like 'you can do a reversal everytime' without proof. There are so many possible factors to go against that statement. I can't prove that you cannot, but you cannot prove that you can. Especially when you're going off assumption and not recreating the scenario, but having faith in the game engine to perform exactly as you believe it works, when in truth no one truly knows all the variables.

[ShinjiGohan]

For the fielong tick in question. By timing it super late you intend on having it hit on this last active frame, so if they block you have a huge frame advantage, should they time a reversal, you believe that fielong will recover before the opponents reversal hits, but what of 0 frame moves? Kens Fierce DP hits on the first frame and has good range (jab and strong hit on the third frame of which fei is still recovering for 2 more frames), same with the SPD. Would a reversal throw work (unless Fie is outside of their throw range with the timed meaty.. but he extended his hitbox when he crouched low and attacked, so it still might be grabbable).

Wouldn't those work? (I'm seriously asking).

[Toodles]

I guess my biggest gripe in this entire thread is people saying false statements like 'you can do a reversal everytime' without proof. There are so many possible factors to go against that statement. I can't prove that you cannot, but you cannot prove that you can. Especially when you're going off assumption and not recreating the scenario, but having faith in the game engine to perform exactly as you believe it works, when in truth no one truly knows all the variables.
Detailing a scenario when you can't reverse would go a long ways though. The current belief is that you can always reverse a tick throws including SPDs. If you know of a situation that makes it impossible to reverse, please, tell us. We are all capable of admitting when we're wrong and would be grateful for you teaching us something new. Until then, you're telling us about this awesome uber-secret technique that goes against everything known about the game, can't be recreated by other people, can't be described, and every time it IS reversed, it's because the thrower messed up, not because it's reversable.

You're a great player, but that doesn't mean you can't be wrong. We're at least willing to put it to the test so we can all get better as a result.

[Graham]

Until then, you're telling us about this awesome uber-secret technique that goes against everything known about the game, can't be recreated by other people, can't be described, and every time it IS reversed, it's because the thrower messed up, not because it's reversable.

Go watch my brother vs Valle and the slide, noogie trap. Thats solid evidence, its not uber secret, its just one of a number of techniques my brother and i use. People will tell you you can do a reversal throw to get out when he falls, i urge them to try =)

For the fielong tick in question....Wouldn't those work? (I'm seriously asking).

In theory yes a reversal throw or reversal attack dp should save you, but in play even at the top level its very rare that a player will get through a low fierce early which is why i suggest it. The risk is very high for the enemy if they dont block and the reversal doesnt succeed (notice how i didnt say mistime the reversal attack or throw?) the risk being 60% life + possibly dizzy, in either case they get knocked down again.

Here is my fighting game logic to help you decide if a move is worth risking. Is a fierce headbutt at the start of the round with balrog vs ryu worth the risk? if it succeeds it hits for what? 5% damage or something? if it misses and he standing fierce into jab dragon punch you lose 40% life. Way too many players dont understand this and only see hit and miss. They dont realize risk vs reward, such a simple concept. Now lets take the fei long example, ryu takes a risk to do reversal dp, he knows he can land reversals 75% of the time, other factors like controller to console, frame loss, possibly cpu not accepting inputs due to frame loss? could reduce that 75% to 30-40%. You did low fierce with fei long with a 60% chance of success since you timed it right, his reward would have been 25% of your life but you succeed and he loses 60% life and gets dizzy then dead from a simple combo. Is the 25% damage at 30-40% chance of success worth that gamble? nope, math tells you its better to block in that scenario if you're ryu. This is why when people say you can always reversal i argue with them, because it isnt always the case and making something sound 100% is very deceiving when it could be 30%. There is theory fighter and street fighter, i talk in street fighter.

[A_Wolfe]

Until then, you're telling us about this awesome uber-secret technique that goes against everything known about the game, can't be recreated by other people, can't be described, and every time it IS reversed, it's because the thrower messed up, not because it's reversable.

Not sure this is really true. We all know the game has glitches, cancels, etc. Also, how many people really have tried it. The majority of Zangiefs I see do a standing short Spd, low jab Spd, jump spd, or stand jab spd. I rarely see anyone user low short, foward or Roundhose. Also, there is probably some truth to the fact that not many have tried it in this forum, and that some may lack the timing to consistantly pull off such a move. That is not intended as an insult, just throwing it out there.

[Khiempossible]

I guess my biggest gripe in this entire thread is people saying false statements like 'you can do a reversal everytime' without proof. There are so many possible factors to go against that statement. I can't prove that you cannot, but you cannot prove that you can. Especially when you're going off assumption and not recreating the scenario, but having faith in the game engine to perform exactly as you believe it works, when in truth no one truly knows all the variables.

I'm no one to make arguments for what can and can't be done in this game. BUT if your biggest gripe is people making false statements like "you can ALWAYS reversal throw something in a specific situation", then you're a total hypocrite cause everybody's biggest gripe about you in this thread is when you make false statements like: "this tick can NEVER be reversed".

You're a pot calling the kettle black my friend. And while I appreciate a game that's built on absolutes, this argument is going nowhere.

Peace.

[Graham]

I'm no one to make arguments for what can and can't be done in this game. BUT if your biggest gripe is people making false statements like "you can ALWAYS reversal throw something in a specific situation", then you're a total hypocrite cause everybody's biggest gripe about you in this thread is when you make false statements like: "this tick can NEVER be reversed".

You're a pot calling the kettle black my friend. And while I appreciate a game that's built on absolutes, this argument is going nowhere.

Peace.

Nice, quoting me out of context, why not post the first paragraph?

[caliagent#3]

They aren't saying its PLAUSIBLE to reverse every tick attempt, they're just saying it's POSSIBLE.

[Kujo]

Hmm . . .

I'm not sure why people are saying the wolfe brothers are high-minded, condescending, or arrogant. From what I've seen in this thread, they've shown a good deal of humility, inspite of the constant, belligerent posts. Perhaps a bit cynical here and there, but hardly worth crying over, especially when you consider the fact that these guys have been around for a long time and have achieved a lot in the SF2 series. How many of the people in this thread can say the same thing, or even that they've beaten the same calibur of players when it counts? Experience speaks loudly.

No matter what side of the discussion your on, I think it'd be a good idea to take everything that is said in this thread with a grain of salt, especially when there are things still being discovered even after 10+yrs. of since the game's release!

I just saw the Evo West vids. Good shit.

NKI/Wolfe: In a ryu vs. ken matchup, what's the most effective way to go about playing the match with ken? Ken's fireball/dp game seems ineffective in this matchup considering the speed of ryu's and his shinku-hadoken. With that portion of his game gone, what tactics should ken use to control the match? Footsies? Hurricane ticks?

NKI, how many of the top japanese player's have been playing since CPS1 SF2? Just curious to know since it seems that pre CPS2 knowledge may lend some advantage in the EVO AE tourney

[stream3]

well Graham resurrected the whole issue by directing attention to the noogie trap (instead of the zangief tick). All this after NKI agreed to disagree.

Save it for EVO and lets drop the argument. I mean you guys are still going to use these "cheaps" and beast people with them. Who cares if it is irreversable or not? Why maintain the absolute position and set yourself up if it is proven that those ticks are always reversable.You can't prove it IS irreversable so just say it's a tough cheap to get out of.

The Valle / Wolfe matchup was memorable because of the circumstance. There have been crazier comebacks, but I don't remember one involving a dizzy. It was very fortunate that Valle was a full screen away when he dizzed Wolfe, and the dizzy shakeout was very fast. Good shit.

[JumpsuitJesse]

Jesse and Graham (and Alex?) - If you guys are serious about going, I'll help you out in every way that I can. They haven't announced any of the details yet, but I'll post up once I know the date.



Well NKI, I was VERY close to going out to Japan to visit you but there were no really big tourneys going on that had ST. My buddy, CMutt(Chris Wong) wants to go as well. Just for once we want to play against Japan's best. Even if we get wrecked, or if we can win it would be a good learning experience.

It'd be nice to get

Choi
Valle
Cole
Shirts
Watson
Schaefer(sp?)
Wolfe Bros.
Maxstah
Omar Deloney
Seth Killian
Dave Sirlin
Jabari
Jason Wilson
Jason Nelson

and any other decent ST/OG SF2player to go along for the trip. It's a long time dream of mine, that's for sure. Even if we have to set it up for NEXT YEAR, that way we can have plenty of time to prepare it would be well worth it. I am down, that's for sure. How 'bout you guys?

[Maj]

I'm not sure why people are saying the wolfe brothers are high-minded, condescending, or arrogant. From what I've seen in this thread, they've shown a good deal of humility, inspite of the constant, belligerent posts. Perhaps a bit cynical here and there, but hardly worth crying over, especially when you consider the fact that these guys have been around for a long time and have achieved a lot in the SF2 series.
Gotta agree with you there. I'm totally impressed by their patience. This whole thing could definately have turned into a bitter flame war as it usually does in these scenarios, but they never allowed themselves to say anything uncivil.

Also someone asked what console they used for Evo West SFAE. It was PS2.

[A-Dhalsim]

[


Well NKI, I was VERY close to going out to Japan to visit you but there were no really big tourneys going on that had ST. My buddy, CMutt(Chris Wong) wants to go as well. Just for once we want to play against Japan's best. Even if we get wrecked, or if we can win it would be a good learning experience.

It'd be nice to get

Choi
Valle
Cole
Shirts
Watson
Schaefer(sp?)
Wolfe Bros.
Maxstah
Omar Deloney
Seth Killian
Dave Sirlin
Jabari
Jason Wilson
Jason Nelson

and any other decent ST/OG SF2player to go along for the trip. It's a long time dream of mine, that's for sure. Even if we have to set it up for NEXT YEAR, that way we can have plenty of time to prepare it would be well worth it. I am down, that's for sure. How 'bout you guys?


Hey Jesse whats poppin brotha. Yeah I was the one to throw the idea to the Wolfe brothers about going to ST National in japan. They mentioned to me they both wanted to plan it, so I told them they should go with me when ST National date gets set. Iv been tryin to go for like 2 years now, finally looks like ill be able to make it this year. Shoot, if we all go, it will be TOO GOOD. You, Cmutt, wolfe brothers, I think we can get valle and a few others to go.

Ultimate win, Winning a tourney in Japan. It will HAPPEN!!!

J-Cole

[Crayfish]

Just for once we want to play against Japan's best.
and any other decent ST/OG SF2player to go along for the trip.
That would be so cool if you did go, just hope someone comes along to make a movie abt the whole trip. Would be mix of int national comp, pilgrimage, holiday, last hurrar of the real old school finaly meeting thier contemporaries 15 years down the line.... If Jeff Schaefer, Watson and the Wolfes go, it'd be something really specal.
You might wanna keep in mind the timing of the X-Mania competition, I think thas the only time all the best SF2 players in Japan meet-up, with a big Tokyo - Osaka rivalry (kinda like the EC-WC thing in the US at Evo) , and now they have an ST and a seerate AE tourney, so is good for everyone. I think one has just gone, so woud give you a good bit of time to plan for the next one. See this site:

http://www15.plala.or.jp/XMANIA/


Good luck with this, I'll e-mail Jeff if it looks possible.
Crayfish.

[Graham]

well Graham resurrected the whole issue by directing attention to the noogie trap (instead of the zangief tick). All this after NKI agreed to disagree.


Before attempting to write off everything I said with a generic 'the whole issue' response, go read my posts, and this is a completely different technique. Its a different type of irreversible. I posted evidence this time of what it looks like, there is no waiting for evo for this example. Now go practice it and then come back with an argument how it doesnt work. If you're not willing to do this, then please stay out of the argument, thanks.

Gotta agree with you there. I'm totally impressed by their patience. This whole thing could definately have turned into a bitter flame war as it usually does in these scenarios, but they never allowed themselves to say anything uncivil.

We aren't here to win internet arguments, we just want to share tricks, hence the title of the thread, but at every trick we get people arguing with us. Its like people DONT want to learn what works on top players. If you watch my matches vs my brother you can gather so much valuable stuff with balrog, mainly because its original technique I created within the last 5 months, even japanese players dont use some of it, ive watched every video available online and even offline. If people cared to ask i'd be willing to help explain why things work and why things are done, its quite amusing the guy who said i played a less solid balrog than seth. It made me ask myself, how many people understand that i purposely sacrifice life to do more damage with balrog on a regular basis? do they think im playing sloppy when i do trade hits where im doing 5 times as much damage? Anyway I felt I made almost no unforced errors that day, and watching those videos was very visually pleasing to see so few mistakes.

[NKI]

Alex, Graham: If you only read one paragraph of mine, read this one. It has become pretty obvious that you guys are not reading my posts. I have given you plenty of evidence showing that the SPD is reversible, and you have given us none to the contrary. You need to refute my evidence if you want any of your technical claims to have any credibility. On a technical issue like this which has nothing to do with tournament victories, people aren't going to take your word for it. You have to give us proof. "I can't reverse it" isn't proof, especially when other people can reverse it.

It's a good strat. I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying it is possible to escape, even when done perfectly.

The range is why dhalsim can grab and you can't reverse. You realize this was a foward slide? When I do ducking foward grab in the corner, it is also irreversible because of the range. I'm mean really, you need to stop shuting down these tricks when you don't know how they work, why they work, or how to do them.Alex, do you really think that I just have no concept of range? I'm taking that and everything else into consideration. Dic can still throw you before the slide, even if you time the slide perfectly. I can prove this to you with another video, but I'm extremely hesitent to do so, being that you guys completely ignored my first video.

If you wanna post tips and strats, that's awesome, but please don't try to make technical claims about ticks being irreversible and other such nonsense. I'm not saying this as a dis, but even though you guys are excellent tournament players, it's clear that you and Graham don't have a good technical understanding of the game.

Ok if you believe reversals are ALWAYS doable then why does japan block deep jumpins on wakeup?Already discussed.
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Advanced_Strategy
Please read the section on Safe Jumps.

I personally believe reversal wakeup isnt always consistent, certain moves will override it.There are no "difficult" or "easy" reversals on wake-up. They're all equally hard: you have one frame. Aside from supers which eat inputs, what your opponent is doing at the time has no bearing on how hard it is for you to do a wake-up reversal.

If you disagree, you need to put forward evidence to prove it.

I dont think the slides throw box is within bisons range either when he is getting up. But you're free to try NKI, ive tried hundreds of times and have had success 0 times, i guess im just really shitty at this game.I'm not taking any shots at your game, Graham. I don't know why you take this as a personal dis on your skills as a player. I've said it before, technical knowledge is something completely different from knowing how to play the game.

All I'm saying is that it can be reversed. I know this because I do it when I play, and the Japanese players do it when they play. This is common knowledge in the ST community.

Furthermore, he has done no game testing on this cheap, he doens't even know how to do the cheap. Lets please take that into consideration.Are you talking about me? If you are, your informant was grossly mistaken. I have done game testing on it, and it's reversible. If there is some kind of super-secret technique which makes it irreversible, explain it to me. If you're right, I'll take back what I said, and I'll admit it's irreversible.

I guess my biggest gripe in this entire thread is people saying false statements like 'you can do a reversal everytime' without proof.Do you not see the hypocricy in what you just said? What you're complaining about is exactly what you yourself are doing...

You made a false claim.
I called you on it.
You asked for proof.
I gave you PAGES of proof, and a video on top of that.
You completely ignored the proof and continued making false claims without backing them up at all, aside from "I'll SPD you hella at Evo", which proves nothing.

Especially when you're going off assumption and not recreating the scenarioIt's pretty depressing that I spent all that time making the video (read: RECREATING THE SCENARIO), only to have you completely ignore it.
:sad:

Wouldn't those work? (I'm seriously asking).Any 0 frame move (a normal throw, a command throw, Blanka's Balls, Ken's Fierce DP, etc) will beat it cleanly. But Fei can do safe meaty st.Fierce against moves with more than 6 frames of start-up, like Boxer's Buffalo Headbutt.

Go watch my brother vs Valle and the slide, noogie trap. Thats solid evidenceThat is not solid evidence. He duck blocks almost every single time (read: doesn't attempt to reversal throw). Even if he had attempted to, that doesn't prove anything other than that Valle can't reverse it.

ryu takes a risk to do reversal dp, he knows he can land reversals 75% of the time, other factors like controller to console, frame loss, possibly cpu not accepting inputs due to frame loss?:sad:
I already explained that whole 4th frame business and why it doesn't affect reversals.

This is why when people say you can always reversal i argue with them, because it isnt always the case and making something sound 100% is very deceiving when it could be 30%. There is theory fighter and street fighter, i talk in street fighter.I think you're misunderstanding me. I am saying it's always 100% possible to reverse. I am not saying it's always 100% advisable, and I'm not saying that you will always 100% get your reversal. Nobody's timing is perfect. All I'm saying is that it's always possible. If you don't get the reversal, it's because you messed up. Not because of some magic property of Fei's cr.Fierce, or Gief's cr.Short.

how many people really have tried it. The majority of Zangiefs I see do a standing short Spd, low jab Spd, jump spd, or stand jab spd. I rarely see anyone user low short, foward or Roundhose.I've tried it, I've proved it can be reversed, and you guys ignored the evidence.

NKI/Wolfe: In a ryu vs. ken matchup, what's the most effective way to go about playing the match with ken?I'm sorry, I really don't know Ryu's or Ken's match-ups. From watching Ani-Ken, it seems like you don't really want to get into a fireball war, but try to get in his face with cr.RH, DP's, and knee bash throws. Get that meter and try to land cr.Short x2 into super. Sorry I'm not much help here. :sad:

NKI, how many of the top japanese player's have been playing since CPS1 SF2? Just curious to know since it seems that pre CPS2 knowledge may lend some advantage in the EVO AE tourneyIn the interviews on The Starting Over, most of them said they've been playing since CE or HF.

We aren't here to win internet arguments, we just want to share tricks, hence the title of the thread, but at every trick we get people arguing with us. Its like people DONT want to learn what works on top players.I don't know how else I can phrase this: I'm not arguing against the usefullness of your tricks. I'm arguing against your unfounded claim that they're IRREVERSIBLE.

Good, usefull tricks: YES
Irreversible: NO

Jesse, Cole - That would be awesome if we could do another USA vs. Japan tournament. I'll see if I can get in contact with the guy who runs X-MANIA. If there are enough American players with genuine interest, maybe we can actually make this happen. :tup:

[Graham]

NKI first you made a video that doesn't show what we are talking about, as for super -secret if thats the words you wanna use for not knowing something then yes its super-secret. You keep arguing how you proved us wrong when you can't even execute what we are talking about.

As for alex not being a very technical player, he is imo the most technical player in this country. Just because he doesn't use kawaks doesn't mean he can't see things more clearly than other people, he isn't even a video game player, he debugs shit in rl. This is the only game he has played.

Unfortunately you think we are gut instinct players when i've specifically told you many times thats not the case. We test things thoroughly before making any sort of claims, and its not the 'yeah that worked on joe at the local arcade shit'.

Your problem is due to lack of experience you believe the game engine works a certain way when it does not. All your arguments are based off this belief the game engine will work that way because you've used frame data to check a fraction of possible scenarios, and even then i question your testing techniques because you said you use slower speeds or settings that aren't the standard for normal gameplay.

As for the yoga slide being thrown, watch the videos, is bison even close enough to him after falling to get a throw off? did you test this theory that it isnt irreversible by slowing down the video and watching frame by frame? do you know the hitboxes for dhalsims slide on starting animations? do you know bisons exact range, did you measure using a ruler? Or are you assuming because of your knowledge of the game? I thought you didn't assume things but proved with hard facts.

Since we're on the subject of testing, im the better 'reversal attack' player of my brother and i so when we test things im our guinea pig. When we test things, im roughly 80-90% on reversal attack timing. This means i should get a flashkick out almost every time right? 8 out of 10 vs low short,grab correct? well its strange we just fired up training mode and did about 200 spds after low short guile vs hf gief on speed 3. my brother got this long string of about 15 spds in a row, and when i was successful he was getting spds about 4 out of 5 attempts. I guess i must REALLY be off today because i picked ken immediately afterward and was popping up with reversal fierce dps (the one that hits on first frame) and was landing them 9 out of 10 times on wakeup or other things like sim low forward attempt at grab. Maybe its cause im just not as good as the japanese players so i wouldnt be able to time it because they arent human beings they are robots and im just a lowly human being.

But all that is irrelevant because we didnt capture it frame by frame and break it down right? Because scientific method isn't good enough when there is a better platform that exists? I guess i must be REALLY off but at the same time REALLY on with my timing since my ken was on fire literally but my guile was getting spd'd nonstop. Enough sarcasm, my timing has always been one of my things i pride myself in, which is why i was always good at reversing tick throws back in the old school days. I know i can consistently hit these things, and i know when im hitting it and nothing happens. The bottom line is we took time to test it out for you, you might not see it online because we did it in our own home. But it happened and the numbers were roughly 10% success on flashkick out of the spd trick (yes my brother isnt a robot he messes up sometimes). My ken uppercutting was at around 90% success.

[JumpsuitJesse]

That would be so cool if you did go, just hope someone comes along to make a movie abt the whole trip. Would be mix of int national comp, pilgrimage, holiday, last hurrar of the real old school finaly meeting thier contemporaries 15 years down the line.... If Jeff Schaefer, Watson and the Wolfes go, it'd be something really specal.
You might wanna keep in mind the timing of the X-Mania competition, I think thas the only time all the best SF2 players in Japan meet-up, with a big Tokyo - Osaka rivalry (kinda like the EC-WC thing in the US at Evo) , and now they have an ST and a seerate AE tourney, so is good for everyone. I think one has just gone, so woud give you a good bit of time to plan for the next one. See this site:

http://www15.plala.or.jp/XMANIA/


Good luck with this, I'll e-mail Jeff if it looks possible.
Crayfish.

Well, let's be realistic.

This year would be kinda tough to get everyone together. Not to mention removing the rust from the hands haha!

I think if we plan this for
2K7 it would be a bigger success.

Trips like this cost money and take time to plan. I don't think we should make this the kind of trip you have to qualify for. Let's face it, there are many SF players who have always wanted to play against the best...both in the US and in Japan. If we all go it would really be more of a pilgrimage of our own. We all know who is good and who isn't and have proven it time and time again in big tourneys, so no need to put og players through a gauntlet. If you have the money to go and the will to play then that should be enough.

I was extremely upset when I couldn't go to SBO after I qualified in Cali. I had to give my spot up to David Sirlin(who did well, I might add!). Ever since then I have always had that question in the back of my mind "what if?" That was my chance. I dunno if I or any of us will ever have the chance. We're getting old and our daily lives are taking their toll on our gaming.

Just as Japan comes to our tournaments we should try to do the same and meet them on their turf and give it our best.


And yes, Cole... it would be tooo good. I've always admired your determined spirit. Let's just hope the OG SF2 community can step up. I mean cmon? What better way to back up the talk right?:wgrin:

[Ouroborus]

Hrm, I'm kind of surprised you ranked ST Chun so high. Any particular reason? In ST, I'd rank her top of the middle tier, but in AE, I'd rank her lower. Maybe middle or bottom of the middle tier, because she gains like 10 new bad matches (CE/HF Ryu/Ken, CE Guile, CE Sagat, CE Dic, HF Boxer, HF Blanka , etc).



care to explain why?

i know ST chun does well vs ST bison, ST boxer and ST blanka but what gives their old incarnations the distinct advantage over ST chun?

is it because of CE bisons psycho crusher?

what i dont understand the most is how hf is better vs chun than st blanka. st blankas crossup lk is too good not to have and having the slide and jungle hop helps a lot with his throw setups. i dont think hf blankas c.mk is bufferable either.

[Graham]

On the subject of ST Chun. Every character gains some bad matchups, but the worst matchup for almost anyone is CE bison and st chun is one of the few characters that can hang with him.

[r3ko]

I think you misinterpreted what NKI means. Most people agree that chun is in the top end of the middle tier in ST. So unless she suddenly gets alot of good matches in AE, she wouldn't be a high tier character.

i know ST chun does well vs ST bison, ST boxer and ST blanka but what gives their old incarnations the distinct advantage over ST chun?

is it because of CE bisons psycho crusher?

The older versions have got alot going for them, increased damage, easier dizzies, stop ST characters from teching throws.

CE Bison is debatebly the best in the game, and therefore most characters will have a bad matchup against him, with only a few maybe being on equal footing and even fewer with the advantage.


what i dont understand the most is how hf is better vs chun than st blanka. st blankas crossup lk is too good not to have and having the slide and jungle hop helps a lot with his throw setups. i dont think hf blankas c.mk is bufferable either.

I'm willing to bet nearly all Blanka players would prefer to have Blanka more like his HF incarnation in ST than his current one. HF blanka is just better than ST Blanka.

Blanka still has crossup mk. Yes he loses the hop and slide, but hes vertical ball takes care of throw setups. It hits on the way down, is fast, can be comboed into and out of, aswell go into a throw.

I'm not sure if his c.mk is bufferable, but in all honestly he don't need it. He has his great chain combos which easily dizzy.

[NKI]

Graham - I'll address all your other points after you answer this question, which you've been dodging since the beginning...you made a video that doesn't show what we are talking aboutYou said [cr.Short, SPD] is irreversible. I showed it being reversed. How is that not what you're talking about? (Please explain in detail.)

i know ST chun does well vs ST bison, ST boxer and ST blanka but what gives their old incarnations the distinct advantage over ST chun?HF Boxer can use his straight rush to beat Lightning Legs clean, or trade with fireball (damage is enormously in his favor). And of course he has huge damage + easy dizzies.

HF Blanka's upball is a nightmare for Chun, especially if she isn't charged. Losing the slide isn't a huge deal because he can't use it to go under her fireballs anyway. The hop...I dunno...it's all right, but it's not like he bases his game off that, so losing that is no big deal. The damage + dizzies make up for it easily, I think.

Chun can give CE Dic problems if she is rushing him down, but if she's getting rushed down, it really sucks. Much worse than getting rushed down by ST Dic. At least against ST Dic you can tech his throws, and getting hit by Scissor Kicks won't be the end of the round. :sad:

[Graham]

Graham - I'll address all your other points after you answer this question, which you've been dodging since the beginning...You said [cr.Short, SPD] is irreversible. I showed it being reversed. How is that not what you're talking about? (Please explain in detail.)

I haven't been dodging it, my brother does the technique much better than I, he is doing a low short, then spd, im not sure what frame exactly he attempts the spd on since im not a very technical player right? anyway first thing is turn it up to speed 3, pick HF gief, not ST gief since its harder to land with st gief and since you have yet to do it id want it done easiest way possible. Now attempt doing spd with the fierce button after you make guile block a low short, try different timings like earlier spd, etc. Once you find it i guarantee you'll know. Also we did this on AE ps2 version. But please do alot of repetitions, dont repeat some macro you programmed with the same timing over and over, try reprogramming it if it fails.

[margalis]

Edit: Post deleted.

[NKI]

anyway first thing is turn it up to speed 3My video was done on Turbo 3. I don't know why you think it wasn't.

pick HF gief, not ST gief since its harder to land with st gief and since you have yet to do it id want it done easiest way possible.ST Gief only has to be accurate to 11 frames, whereas HF Gief has to be accurate to a single frame (much harder). The tick in my video was perfectly timed, to the frame. Why do I need to redo that?

Now attempt doing spd with the fierce button after you make guile block a low shortThat's what I did.

try different timings like earlier spd, etc. Once you find it i guarantee you'll know.I found the perfect timing, and that's what was shown in the vid.

Also we did this on AE ps2 version.Mine was done on the arcade version of ST.

But please do alot of repetitions, dont repeat some macro you programmed with the same timing over and over, try reprogramming it if it fails.I tried it with every possible variation of the best possible timing, and I could still reverse it every time.

[jaminbenjamin]

Graham - you missed an obvious super after a noogie; I'm not saying I'm better, just disputing your claim that you had no unforced errors. As for the comment about Seth, I made made a purposeful disclaimer that Seth had to be comfortable with the sticks.

It's exciting to have a few pages to read each day on this thread, but instead of sifting through tons of newbie questions, it seems I'm sifting through a really poorly thought-out flame war. For the record, it was you guys who started the bashing first (first on the Japanese then on Americans losing); if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

So, it's in the best interest of everyone if we stick to our strengths; Wolfes can post about winning tournaments and NKI can post about testing frame data and EVERYONE can be happy...

[laugh]

This Hf Gief low short tick into SPD being irreversable argument can be resolved at Evo as long as someone brings a programmable stick. Alex Wolfe can record his "inescapable" tick SPD on the programmable stick on the 1P side, after that you can just repeat that exact same tick SPD with the touch of a button. Then you start trying to reverse it on the 2P side.

Btw, Sim's meaty forward slide after the noogies are definitely throwable, but it's pretty damn hard to get it. If you have the tools, it's possible to thow it 100%.

[TheGrape1]

This gief shit is pointless since the timing is tight and you can bait a reversal if you time the ticks well. What is the argument worth? Even if you try a reversal it's just as risky and moreso imo depending on the dizzy done on the knockdown.

shrug.

[stream3]

Before attempting to write off everything I said with a generic 'the whole issue' response, go read my posts, and this is a completely different technique. Its a different type of irreversible. I posted evidence this time of what it looks like, there is no waiting for evo for this example. Now go practice it and then come back with an argument how it doesnt work. If you're not willing to do this, then please stay out of the argument, thanks.

I can definitely sum it up with a generic whole issue. It is the same damn issue. You guys are claiming something is irreversible. Who cares what type of irreversible it is? Is that really relevant to the discussion? It's this matter of invincible ticks that is the real issue.

And further more, you don't even tell how to do this "irreversible tick". You just tell NKI "go pick HF gief, do some shit, YOU'LL KNOW WHEN YOU FIND IT. Nice instruction there. Thanks for sharing that "priceless" advice. When you comment on this post (I find it amusing that you obviously have to get in the last word everytime. EVERYTIME), try addressing the real issues that NKI asked about.

Anyway I felt I made almost no unforced errors that day, and watching those videos was very visually pleasing to see so few mistakes.[/QUOTE]

Jeez where is the modesty. At least pretend.... and why hide your immodesty. Just go all out. "I am the shit. I played so good. I beat everyone. yea YEAH!"

If you are looking for love from the community, this arguing isn't helping.

[ShinjiGohan]

It's exciting to have a few pages to read each day on this thread, but instead of sifting through tons of newbie questions.


Sorry that I'm a newb ^.^

[TS]

How do you throw the fireball?

:confused:

[Graham]

Graham - you missed an obvious super after a noogie; I'm not saying I'm better, just disputing your claim that you had no unforced errors

I said i had almost no unforced, not no unforced.

it seems I'm sifting through a really poorly thought-out flame war.

You're right you're attempting a poorly thought out flame war, i am not.

For the record, it was you guys who started the bashing first (first on the Japanese then on Americans losing)

I asked if these were good japanese players because they made alot of unforced errors. Who said thats bashing? I was assuming their best would make almost no unforced errors. Nah you're confusing me for the other guys, I don't need to bash the americans, everyone else is doing it.

So, it's in the best interest of everyone if we stick to our strengths

I think your strength is lurking, not flaming.

I tried it with every possible variation of the best possible timing, and I could still reverse it every time.

Well you're in luck, today i met up with a guile player who lives close by who can do reversal flashkicks like EVERY time, he does the triple button roll method. We will have him play against my brothers gief in training mode and attempt to get out.

Tonight he came down with me to keystone2 (alberts place). Me him and choi played a buncha ae and he did reversal timing so well that i rarely tried doing meaty moves on him as he got up because he kept flashkicking me. Guy has amazing timing. Anyway if its possible to get out i guarantee this guy will be the one to pull it off, so ill let you know within a few days the results.


Jeez where is the modesty. At least pretend.... and why hide your immodesty. Just go all out. "I am the shit. I played so good. I beat everyone. yea YEAH!"

Once again someone attempts to flame me using out of context examples, here is a tip bud. Read and post everything I said before trying to make me look bad. I was explaining how I trade hits alot with balrog because another person said it looked sloppy. I mentioned the unforced errors to back that up so people would understand that I trade hits on purpose and not by accident. I said it was pleasing to watch because some people watch it and see these trade hits and go 'man thats ugly' not understanding that it was intended.

I'm 30 years old, the last thing I need from this forum is validation from other people. It's nice when I get praise but I play this game as a hobby, not to improve my self esteem. What I do want though is the basic respect I show to every other person who posts here, it seems many people are so ready to insult though.

[Obliterate]

Question: What gets more tourney play SF2 Turbo or Super SF2 Turbo? Also, on the SF Anniversary Collection, if I pick the Super SF2 Turbo characters only is it arcade perfect? This might have been answered already (if so then you can reference me in a negative whore fashion) but 85 pages is a bit much.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Turbo 3 setting is a bit too damn fast? Is that the normal speed its played on in tourney play, or do some tournaments change the speed?

[Kyokuji]

Turbo 3 is the standard, and SSF2T gets a hell of a lot more competitive play than SF2T.
You get used to it anyway.

[BoggleMinds]

Turbo 3 on the Japanese version (second fastest). Not too fast, not too slow.

[r3ko]

I'm still confused on the whole speed thing, Is Turbo 3 the standard for japanese and Turbo 2 standard for US and everyone else, as there the same speeds.

[Decoy]

I think you misinterpreted what NKI means. Most people agree that chun is in the top end of the middle tier in ST. So unless she suddenly gets alot of good matches in AE, she wouldn't be a high tier character.



The older ver