Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

[NKI]

By request, this is the place to discuss all things ST.

See also the Super Turbo section of the SRK Wiki (http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo).

If you are looking for "general strats", it is quite inefficient to bust up in here with questions like "What're some good Guile strats!?!?" There is now a wealth of footage available online, featuring the world's best players. Go to combovideos.com (http://www.combovideos.com), grab some tourney footage, and learn "general strats" that way, so that we don't have to keep answering the same questions over and over.

Before you ask a question, please make sure it hasn't already been answered in the Wiki, or in this thread, or in my Japan log (http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/Japan.log.html).

T.Akiba's site (http://games.t-akiba.net) - the best site in the universe for old school Street Fighter data. Unfortunately, the site is entirely in Japanese, but I have done some translations which you can find here (http://nki.combovideos.com/ST).


TERMINOLOGY
-------------------

Jab = weak punch
Strong = medium punch
Fierce = fierce punch
Short = weak kick
Forward = medium kick
Roundhouse (RH) = fierce kick

cr. = crouching
st. = standing
j. = jumping

WW = World Warrior
CE = Champion Edition
HF = Hyper Fighting = SF2T = Street Fighter 2 Turbo
SSF2 = Super Street Fighter 2
ST = Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo

Before a character's name, "O." means "Old" and "N." means "New".
O.Sagat = Old Sagat = choose Sagat, then hit Up, Down, Down, Up+Jab
N.Sagat = New Sagat = Super Turbo Sagat
Keep in mind that Super Turbo's old characters are not the same as they were in SSF2. For example, O.Sagat can cancel his st.Short and st.Forward after two hits, but Sagat can not do this in SSF2.

Not everyone plays on the American version, and some character names are different in the Japanese version, so to avoid confusion, we should not use the names Vega, Bison, or Balrog.

Claw = American Vega = Japanese Balrog
Boxer = American Balrog = Japanese Bison
Dictator (Dic) = American Bison = Japanese Vega

More terms will be added as it becomes obvious that people don't know what they mean.

[BB Hood]

You play a crazy Chun. Oh and I liked the glitch MvC video at Evo2k5, the thing is I can also do some of them on MvC 2. Sorry this post has nothing to do with the thread but yea...

[Bacardi]

I need thawk help vs sim

anyway I can stuff his pokes? Gian made me feel like it was a lost cause on cigarbobs cab at evo

[9TNine]

Which version do you (or anyone with lots of knowledge on this question) consider the most arcade perfect (AE picking only ST/O. characters counts)?

-9

[stream3]

why did evo use PS1 version of ST? :P o.sagat and bison are toned down.

[Toodles]

I saw Jason Cole dizzy an opponent twice, and go in for a flip throw, and the opponent teched both throws. Is this really the best Dhalsim has to offer against a dizzied opponent? I don't play Dhalsim, but I wanted some input on this. Is there no combo he can that is more damaging? Why not go into a noogie, then slide/noogie shenanigans? If you wanted distance from your opponent, why not teleport then far standing fierce, or the fireball- far standing fierce combo?

[white silver]

What is your strategy for fighting vega(claw) with chun?

[_MJ_#R]

why did evo use PS1 version of ST? :P o.sagat and bison are toned down.


ask NKI about that :]

[Second Sight]

I remember NKI, you came to gunthers in columbia, didn't you? Will you please come again, because I was never there, I believe thursday night, and I want a piece of your chun. I know fighting against the computer doesn't count, but I made it through the whole ST game and even beat Akuma on my first try. I believe I am worthy enough, I mean Josh got to play you :sad:

[CigarBoB]

Wait till you all see the ST 3v3 from evo! To fucking good! I was able to use a video recorder to capture the audio from the croud so the vids should be fairly entertaining.

Thank you again NKI!

[NKI]

I need thawk help vs sim

anyway I can stuff his pokes? Gian made me feel like it was a lost cause on cigarbobs cab at evoThat is a really hard match for Hawk. It seems to me that he can really only do two things to get in. When Sim throws a Yoga Fire, j.Fierce over it. This will at least trade with Sim's limbs (sometimes win cleanly), and you win if they trade. That, or Psychic DP. Of course Psychic DP is pretty hard to land, so you may eat 3 or 4 or 5 limbs before you land one, but once you knock down Sim once (or get any kind of position advantage), you need to kill him right then and there, because you will probably not get the opportunity again.

Which version do you (or anyone with lots of knowledge on this question) consider the most arcade perfect (AE picking only ST/O. characters counts)?I don't know about AE because I haven't played it much on PS2. I can say though that there is no good home version of ST. Every single version has at least one serious problem. It's really hard to say which pile of shit is better than the other.

The DC version has characters that are too small, so spacing for everything is different and certain combos that should work don't. That is my biggest gripe with the DC version, because that affects all characters. There is also a huge amount of time between "Round 1, Fight!" and when you can actually move.

The Saturn version's characters are too big, plus Guile magically got his CPS1 chain back, so he can do cr.Short->st.Fierce again.

The PS1 version has a lot of small problems and two big problems. The first small problem is that when the opponent has zero life left, it takes two blocked specials to kill them, where it should only take one. Chun Li's medium upkicks fall WAAAY too slowly, but Short and RH versions are correct. The PS1 version also has the same problem with lag after "Round 1, Fight!", and Guile also has his CPS1 chain in this version as well. The big problem (according to Kuni) is that the input is different too. Moves can't be done slowly like they can in the arcade, and also tapping two buttons one right after the other counts as pressing them together, so it's easy to get accidental lariats. Also, dizzies are messed up. (Characters don't get dizzy when they should.)

Watson said that Deejay can duck Boxer's far st.Fierce, which shouldn't be possible, but this is not true. After I got home, I tested the arcade version and the PS1 version side by side, and the range is the same. Deejay definitely can not duck under Boxer's st.Fierce, except from far range (but that's the same in the arcade version).

Justin Wong complained to me that O.Sagat's Tiger Uppercut does less damage, but again, this is not true. I tested it side by side with the arcade version, and there is no noticable difference. What he may not have realized is that ST (the arcade version) is a very random game. The same moves don't always do the same amount of damage. Choose O.Sagat in the arcade version and do five Tiger Uppercuts to the opponent. Sometimes that's enough damage to kill them, sometimes it's not. It's random.

why did evo use PS1 version of ST? :P o.sagat and bison are toned down.If you're not referring to the two points above, how are they toned down?

The reason PS1 was chosen is because at the time, the only differences I knew of were the lag before the round, Chun's medium upkicks, and Guile's CPS1 chain. If I had known about the input differences and dizzy differences, maybe we wouldn't have used the PS1 version.

I saw Jason Cole dizzy an opponent twice, and go in for a flip throw, and the opponent teched both throws. Is this really the best Dhalsim has to offer against a dizzied opponent?Japanese Dhalsim players usually do noogies, or just straight Yoga Flame (does decent damage, knocks down, allowing for more free block damage).

What is your strategy for fighting vega with chun?Turtle it up. Chun controls that match on the ground because lightning legs beat all of Claw's normals, and upkicks beat his jump-ins. He has to take it to the air, so it becomes a guessing game between wall dive, punch wall dive, and wall dive fake-out. Chun has an answer for all three, but you have to guess right. If he does real wall dive, just do jump back medium kick. (Or if he tries to do real wall dive off of your wall, just air throw him before he gets to the wall.) If he does punch wall dive or wall dive fake-out, just fireball him. Please note that my match against DSP at Evo2005 (battle for 5th place) is a perfect example of how to NOT play that match. If anyone (Spence?) got my matches against Tokido on tape, that is a much better example. Also, I think I have my matches with DSP during the 3rd (private) ST tourney on CigarBob's cabinet, and that's also a much better example of how to play that match. If that got recorded (which I think it did), I'll up it.

I remember NKI, you came to gunthers in columbia, didn't you? Will you please come againYeah, I came down for the get-together a week ago or so, but gas is way too expensive for me to be taking a bunch of random road trips just to play ST. If you want to come up to STL, I own an arcade cabinet with ST, so we can play here.

Wait till you all see the ST 3v3 from evo! To fucking good! I was able to use a video recorder to capture the audio from the croud so the vids should be fairly entertaining.

Thank you again NKI!No, thank YOU SIR!! Your cabinet was the best part about Evo for me (and a lot of other peeps, too). Currently encoding the ST footage. I'll let everyone know when it's done.


-Nicholai!

[Toodles]

Yeah, I came down for the get-together a week ago or so, but gas is way too expensive for me to be taking a bunch of random road trips just to play ST. If you want to come up to STL, I own an arcade cabinet with ST, so we can play here.I may actually take you up on thatin the next month or two. Youll own me up completely for a while, but I learn quick.

[ParryAll]

If all the versions of ST are flawed, why not just use modded Xbox's and Arcade ST for next years Evo?

Then again I could see how that would be a problem w/ legality, converters (2 magic box per Xbox wouldn't be cheap), Expensive modified Xboxes, etc.

BTW CigarBob, what are you running inside your cabinet? A pc or an Xbox? That shit really was the coolest thing at Evo, I remember catching some X-men Vs. Street Fighter, that game is really entertaining when you watch people who actually know how to play it. A couple people were making comments like how it's a better game than MVC2.

[SaBrE]

parry: its a supergun, fuck all that fake emu bs =)

[ShinjiGohan]

Didn't that have like 5 shelfs for 5 different systems including Supergun? Like SNES, PS2, Saturn, DC?

To the point of moves doing random damage I do concur with that. I've noticed that in A2 definitely as well as the first EX game.

[CigarBoB]

If all the versions of ST are flawed, why not just use modded Xbox's and Arcade ST for next years Evo?

Then again I could see how that would be a problem w/ legality, converters (2 magic box per Xbox wouldn't be cheap), Expensive modified Xboxes, etc.

BTW CigarBob, what are you running inside your cabinet? A pc or an Xbox? That shit really was the coolest thing at Evo, I remember catching some X-men Vs. Street Fighter, that game is really entertaining when you watch people who actually know how to play it. A couple people were making comments like how it's a better game than MVC2.

I dont mess with EMU's when I want to play serious. I own the arcade boards for ST, XvSF, A1,A3, Vampire Savior, SF2:HF, MSH. I am looking to buy a 3s and 2i as well.

Thanks to every one for all the kind words about my cabinet. I put in a lot of hard work in to it and I appreciate it.

[JumpsuitJesse]

I for one can say that an AE all ST cast wouldn't be very smart. The hit boxes are all screwed up in that game. In ST Ryu and Ken can stuff projectiles at a closer range but in AE its as if their extended hands get smacked before the fb animation even finishes.

The only solution to the problem would be go to back to arcade support for ST or have really good emus running.

Fei Long in AE is totally screwed.....I went back and played ST and Fei is so much better in that game because his Rekka animations are different(in terms of hitbox properties).....

[danomyte]

Yeah, I came down for the get-together a week ago or so, but gas is way too expensive for me to be taking a bunch of random road trips just to play ST. If you want to come up to STL, I own an arcade cabinet with ST, so we can play here.
-Nicholai!

dont sing it! bring it! think its a game! :cool:

whens the next ur free Mr.EVO?

teach me XvsSF! :crybaby: pretty pllllz!

[9TNine]

I for one can say that an AE all ST cast wouldn't be very smart. The hit boxes are all screwed up in that game. In ST Ryu and Ken can stuff projectiles at a closer range but in AE its as if their extended hands get smacked before the fb animation even finishes.

The only solution to the problem would be go to back to arcade support for ST or have really good emus running.

Fei Long in AE is totally screwed.....I went back and played ST and Fei is so much better in that game because his Rekka animations are different(in terms of hitbox properties).....

Awesome, thanks. From what it sounds like, either actual ST cabinets or Superguns sound like the way to go.

Like I said in the Evo thread, I was suprised to see PSX ST getting picked (even though I'm wasn't familiar with the differences) since the PSX hasn't had a good history of Arcade Perfect ports.

-9

[kesh!]

sexy waiting for footage

[TarkanX]

How would an N. Ryu deal with an O.Sagat? Even though N.Ryu's main strategy is dependent on fireballs, O.Sagat's come out faster.

[JumpsuitJesse]

Awesome, thanks. From what it sounds like, either actual ST cabinets or Superguns sound like the way to go.

Like I said in the Evo thread, I was suprised to see PSX ST getting picked (even though I'm wasn't familiar with the differences) since the PSX hasn't had a good history of Arcade Perfect ports.

-9

To be honest, I didn't know about the PSX version having that many problems with inputs. I mainly looked for animation problems and hit box problems but from what I am hearing there are more problems than meets the eye. The DC version is horrible. The Saturn version is worse. The ONLY port I have seen that is perfect is SF Collection 2 with SF2, SF2 CE and SF2 HF for PSX. Thats it. As for ST, I have yet to see a perfect arcade translation.

The only way to have a no excuse clean cut tournament for this game is to have it on arcade hardware....either supergun, game cabinet or something. I am sure the ST community can come up with a solution to present to next years EVO organizers.

[mannerbot]

If I recall correctly, people offered to lend Evo superguns/PCBs/AES systems, etc. but Mr. Wizard was having none of it.

[JumpsuitJesse]

How would an N. Ryu deal with an O.Sagat? Even though N.Ryu's main strategy is dependent on fireballs, O.Sagat's come out faster.

Ryu has a short hurricane that goes over low tiger shots and has excellent recovery time. Ryu can fight O.Sagat but it's just more work. Don't forget that once Ryu gets his Super charged it changes the game. O.Sagat can't spam fb's as much. True, Ryu can't keep up with a fb fight for long but he has options that can get him in close to do damage.

[SaBrE]

superguns are relatively easy and cheap to make. i had to barely teach cigarbob how to do it, and he figured the rest out on his own with no prior knowledge, and his shit worked first time go.

the only thing about superguns is the converters being used for video to hook up to a tv. most converters i know of lag in some way. the one cigarbob has, however, lags in no way. people were playing xsf and st on it no problems. and me and kindebu were pulling off cc's with no problems whatsoever in a3. especially kindebu, dude never missed shit.

http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

thats the converter used...

jesse: why a no show this year? =/

[Saotome Kaneda]

Oh shit it's Sabre

Ya'll fucked up now

[JumpsuitJesse]

superguns are relatively easy and cheap to make. i had to barely teach cigarbob how to do it, and he figured the rest out on his own with no prior knowledge, and his shit worked first time go.

the only thing about superguns is the converters being used for video to hook up to a tv. most converters i know of lag in some way. the one cigarbob has, however, lags in no way. people were playing xsf and st on it no problems. and me and kindebu were pulling off cc's with no problems whatsoever in a3. especially kindebu, dude never missed shit.

http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

thats the converter used...

jesse: why a no show this year? =/

Yeah, I heard the ST cab that bob made was the highlight of the whole tourney. Wish I coulda seen it.

I couldn't make it because my wife and I are trying to get into a new house and I also had to finish my car(its in the shop). I'll be at next years evo polished and ready.

[KillerKai]

could someone tell me when meaty attacks are supposed to be perfectly safe? I played like 30 games of casual with Alex Valle on saturday and he was telling me how meaty attacks won't be safe on certain characters. Also, Apoc was explaining how i can store the charge to Vega's back flip kick. Anyone care to elaborate on that?

[margalis]

Meaty attacks are only safe against guys without an attack that either hits on the first frame, or is invincible until it hits. In practice they are safe against Bison (dictator) and um...Dhalsim. (Although he can reversal teleport) And Vega (claw) without a charge.

[JumpsuitJesse]

could someone tell me when meaty attacks are supposed to be perfectly safe? I played like 30 games of casual with Alex Valle on saturday and he was telling me how meaty attacks won't be safe on certain characters. Also, Apoc was explaining how i can store the charge to Vega's back flip kick. Anyone care to elaborate on that?

Meaty attacks are a big risk but you get a big reward if they connect. Most characters from SF2 HF(I think)have some sort of reversal frame(s)where they can either throw or counter attack. There have been times where I KNOW I perfectly timed a meaty only to be throw right out of it.

The way I see it, I am betting that my opponent will fuck up his reversal and if I win the bet then it's all good. If I lose then I eat some damage.

So in short, meaty attacks are never "safe"......they are more like "risky"

[A-Dhalsim]

I saw Jason Cole dizzy an opponent twice, and go in for a flip throw, and the opponent teched both throws. Is this really the best Dhalsim has to offer against a dizzied opponent? I don't play Dhalsim, but I wanted some input on this. Is there no combo he can that is more damaging? Why not go into a noogie, then slide/noogie shenanigans? If you wanted distance from your opponent, why not teleport then far standing fierce, or the fireball- far standing fierce combo?


Yes, Dhalsim doesn't really have many options in a dizy situation. Depending on character, your best option is to go for a noogie grab then you can get a cross up forward slide into double headbutt. This will dizzy the opponent AGAIN. Unfortunately it only works guaranteed on Chun li (u all can see me do it to NKI on 3v3 LOL) and on Vega. If you have super charged obviously you can go in for just the raw super damage or early rh drill, low short super. My opinion, if they are near death I will just go for the flip throw,(mainly because even if they tech it near death..it does full damage) if not I will do noogies so I can set up another tick throw trap or space them to the distance i want them in. Dhalsim really has no other option that is practical.

J-Cole

[NKI]

dont sing it! bring it! think its a game! :cool:I have no idea what you're talking about.

whens the next ur free Mr.EVO?

teach me XvsSF! :crybaby: pretty pllllz!You can ask anyone who watched me play at Evo, I am absolutely terrible at XSF, and I should not be allowed to teach that game to anyone. Besides, school and work are starting up again, so I won't really have time to play anything anyway.

How would an N. Ryu deal with an O.Sagat? Even though N.Ryu's main strategy is dependent on fireballs, O.Sagat's come out faster.Same thing you should do as N.Ryu against Sim, and the same thing I do in practically every match when playing as Chun: don't fight until you have meter. The round is totally different (in your favor) when you have meter, so why bother attacking before then? Just trade fireballs, Short HK over some low ones, etc until you get meter. Yeah, you may have to block a few, but that's OK. He'll stop shooting once you get that meter.

But the important thing is once you get it, for the love of god, don't just throw it away. So many times people will just use the super as soon as they get it. The reason you spent all the effort building meter is to land that 50% damage.

could someone tell me when meaty attacks are supposed to be perfectly safe?Practically all meaties come with a risk, because any character can reversal throw you, so unless you're out of their throw range, it's not safe. Chun has a few exceptions, though. One is her "magic" st.Fierce (the double palm), which is completely unthrowable about half the time (randomly). If she does a meaty st.Fierce, and you successfully input a reversal throw command, you will not get a reversal throw, but you will hear your normal whiff. If you were holding towards, you get hit; if you were holding back, you block. It happens randomly, and I don't know why.

Chun's D/F+RH (the best normal ever) is a completely safe meaty against a lot of characters if done right. If the opponent doesn't try to reverse, they will be forced to block it, but if they do reverse, most characters still lose:

-Guile's Flash Kick will completely whiff (backwards)
-Ryu's DP will be blocked (backwards)
-Zangief's lariat will lose cleanly
-Deejay's upkicks will completely whiff (backwards)

Etc.

Or maybe Valle was talking about safe jump-ins? You can time a jump-in meaty enough so that it will force the opponent to block if they don't reverse, but if they do reverse, you can block their reversal. This works because there are practically zero moves in ST that hit on the first frame. Ken's Fierce DP might, but I'm not sure. His Jab and Strong DPs don't, and Ryu's DPs don't either.

Also, Apoc was explaining how i can store the charge to Vega's back flip kick. Anyone care to elaborate on that?You have to initially charge D/B, but after you have it charged, you can let go of down and just charge back. Not as useful as Chun's stored super or Honda's stored slam, but good to know, I gues...


-Nicholai!

[JumpsuitJesse]

NKI IS MY DVD DADDY! :clap:

[SaBrE]

nick: its crazy how much better youve gotten at st. my hats off to you bro. just watching you tear shit up on the cabinet. i dont think we ever got a game in at all tho IIRC =/ guess all that time in japan really paid off and now reaping the benefits hehe.

sorry off topic

[Spider-Dan]

To be honest, I didn't know about the PSX version having that many problems with inputs. I mainly looked for animation problems and hit box problems but from what I am hearing there are more problems than meets the eye. The DC version is horrible. The Saturn version is worse. The ONLY port I have seen that is perfect is SF Collection 2 with SF2, SF2 CE and SF2 HF for PSX. Thats it. As for ST, I have yet to see a perfect arcade translation.
I believe all console versions of SF2 are based on the Japanese arcade, which would mean that none of them are perfect to us.

The example Choi cited for me (re: HF) is Dhalsim's slide as anti-air vs. shotos. In the JPN version, shotos can hit it; in the US version, they can't. In all home versions, they can.

[JumpsuitJesse]

I believe all console versions of SF2 are based on the Japanese arcade, which would mean that none of them are perfect to us.

The example Choi cited for me (re: HF) is Dhalsim's slide as anti-air vs. shotos. In the JPN version, shotos can hit it; in the US version, they can't. In all home versions, they can.

This is suck!
RYU BEST MAN!

Well, anyone think Evo can have a change of heart if the community can come up with some sort of standard that is both convenient and precise when it comes to playing the games??

[Ouroborus]

yo nki, it was nice finally meeting you despite we didnt get any games in.

anyways more questions:

-whats this i hear about balrogs hp being duckable? and which version does this apply to?

-i heard something about CE sagats tiger uppercut unblockable. any idea how its done?

-how do you "combo" bisons scissor kick into a throw. most of the time i tried it, i get thrown afterwards but there are a few times i can get my throws in.

-can any anti chun tricks with new sim be ported over to old sim?

[kesh!]

is there a link to the evo footage?

[9TNine]

is there a link to the evo footage?

Wtf?

No, it'll be on the DVD. Buy the DVD and support future Evo tourneys.

-9

[kesh!]

of course im going to buy the dvd

nki said this:

"No, thank YOU SIR!! Your cabinet was the best part about Evo for me (and a lot of other peeps, too). Currently encoding the ST footage. I'll let everyone know when it's done."

is that for the DVD then? if so then my fault thought he was gonna put some random footage up.

[Infested Jester]

Better be random footage on the next set, or bonus matches at least. The Seth Cam was the only thing worth watching on most of those discs last year.

[CigarBoB]

Kesh! the footage NKI is talking about is the 3v3 ST tourny I put on. It is my footage and EVO is not using it for their tourny. But Wizard will be hosting the torrent on this site.

Keep your eyes out for it soon.

[SirFritzalot]

Somebody help me out with beating E. Honda? I use Guile, and Balrog(claw).

What are my best Jump-in options with Guile and Balrog(if that is the thing to do)?

Should I turtle? cause with Guile, I normally play aggressive, I just don't normally understand this match-up. I'm normallly real good with pressure and flash kick traps and such, but it just seems like a tough match-up for me, seeing as I don't know many people who play with Honda, and it seems like a 50/50 match-up to me.plus I constantly get caught up in the bacbreaker grab into thousand hand slap in the corner. I know he shouldn't even get that close, but he does psychic headbutts and he makes me whiff flashkicks by doing the lp version of the move. I use the Champion edition version of Guile or the turbo version. Sometimes the ST version.

It seems like an easier match-up for Balrog, considering his pokes and air game, but lately he's been improving on it. He's learning not to jump-in as much, and he's playing alot safer, more turtleing, and stuff like that

Any input?

-Fritz

[Duck Strong]

Guile owns up Honda pretty bad. Just turtle your ass off and meet him with RH or Fierce in the air when he jumps or butt slams over your booms(he will jump because he has no choice). There isn't much else to be said except don't come to him. There is absolutely no reason to go on the offense against honda with most characters, period. You should control the whole match, just don't let him get in because Honda is a fucking tank when he gets close.

I honestly think Honda has an easier time against Balrog.

[NKI]

SaBrE - thanks for the kind words. Too bad we didn't get to play. :sad: Next time, eh. :tup:

-whats this i hear about balrogs hp being duckable? and which version does this apply to?This is not true. I tested it, and Deejay can not duck Boxer's st.Fierce in the PSX version, just like he can't in the arcade version.

-i heard something about CE sagats tiger uppercut unblockable. any idea how its done?Whether or not it exists, I dunno, but I've never heard of that before.

-how do you "combo" bisons scissor kick into a throw. most of the time i tried it, i get thrown afterwards but there are a few times i can get my throws in.Anytime you do point-blank scissor kicks, the opponent gets a free throw on you. The only time you get to throw them is if they mess up. You can do it safely (so that you can't be thrown) by doing it from max range, and the Short version works best.

-can any anti chun tricks with new sim be ported over to old sim?The only anti-Chun trick with Sim that I know of is the one Cole mentioned (cross-up Forward slide after noogie). O.Sim can't do it because the slide is counted as a far move, and because you can't control O.Sim's normals, he automatically does the close cr.Forward (N.Sim's D/B+Forward kick). I really see absolutely no reason to ever play O.Sim, because as far as I know, he has no advantages over N.Sim, only disadvantages.

Somebody help me out with beating E. Honda? I use Guile, and Balrog(claw).This may not be the answer you want to hear, but to beat Honda, you just have to turtle that ass. Guile is tailor made to beat Honda...that's probably one of Honda's worst fights (if not the worst). Honda has no effective way to get around Guile's Sonic Booms without being countered. All Honda's jump-ins and butt slams will lose cleanly to Guile's j.RH.

What are my best Jump-in options with Guile and Balrog(if that is the thing to do)?With Guile, you should never put forth any offense at all against Honda. Claw actually has a hard time with Honda because Honda can out-turtle you by a lot. Honestly, I don't even know how Claw is supposed to win that match, other than wall dive shenanigans. If you can't get that started, you pretty much lose.

I constantly get caught up in the bacbreaker grab into thousand hand slap in the corner.You can Flash Kick the hands, but if he sees that coming and fakes, then you will be giving him another throw if you whiff the Flash Kick.

I know he shouldn't even get that close, but he does psychic headbutts and he makes me whiff flashkicks by doing the lp version of the move.Just use cr.Jab to beat his headbutts. That way you can keep your charge, and you don't take any risks. (Note: not sure if this works for CE/HF Guile, but it works for ST Guile.)


-Nicholai!

[I Am Lothar]

Does anyone want to write an easy mode ST Dhalsim guide for me? I want to pick him up but I haven't found much basic info on him. Just the basics would be great, thanks in advance.

[Manx]

I can't wait for the DVD to come out. I been trying to get my buds into ST for a long time now, and there's just no excuse since PS2 version is out now. Thanks for all the cool threads and info, NKI and A-Dhalsim!

[Scamp]

I apologize if this has been handled before but I gotta ask: What are the differences between "arcade perfect" and SF:AE for the PS2?

[SaBrE]

the most noticeable differences between AE ST only and arcade ST, is the fact that ST new characters cannot tech ST old characters in AE, yet they can in regular ST. which is sillyy, teching throws is an st feature, they should be able to tech all characters. the other major difference is o.sagat got nerfed big time. tiger shots are very, ver slow. im sure theres little things here and there, but im not as hardcore into all the changes since i rarely see an st board these days, except now since cigarbob got one that i can play on all the time now...

[Toodles]

I thought the "hold start when selecting game version" gave you arcade perfect settings, including the stored ochio, stored claw flip, stored chun super, and un-nerfed O.Sagat. Does anyone know of any differences between the 'start selected' Hyper characters and authentic Super Turbo characters?

[Second Sight]

Yeah, I came down for the get-together a week ago or so, but gas is way too expensive for me to be taking a bunch of random road trips just to play ST. If you want to come up to STL, I own an arcade cabinet with ST, so we can play here.
If you were wondering, my name is Bryce or 'smilie', I play at gunthers a lot when I can, just ask Josh, he knows me, he can tell you about me.

[JumpsuitJesse]

I thought the "hold start when selecting game version" gave you arcade perfect settings, including the stored ochio, stored claw flip, stored chun super, and un-nerfed O.Sagat. Does anyone know of any differences between the 'start selected' Hyper characters and authentic Super Turbo characters?


Nope. You can pick SSF2 and SSF2 Turbo characters with the glitches but the some characters are still nerfed and hit boxes for many characters are fubar.

[ToXY]

i havnt played ae for a while, i got it on xbox and i think you need to hold select (back) on super mode to get old characters,
so would this mean you have to press start + select to get an arcade perfect o.sagat, and do you hear a sound or chime if it worked?

[SaBrE]

let me break this down

in ST, st old characters are hardly similar to ssf2 characters. that is a major misconception with people. st old characters are NOT like ssf2 characters. a basic example (not talking ae here only arcade st and ssf2) is fei long, in ssf2, only normals he can buffer are close s.fierce, jabs, shorts, and up close strong i believe. in ST, when you pick old fei, almost every normal he has, buffers. c.forward, c.strong, s.fierce far, etc. pretty large difference between st old and ssf2 characters.

so back to AE. when you pick super mode, you are getting the legitimate ssf2 version of that character. when you hold mode or start (depending on if you use xbox or ps2) when selecting super, you will get the ST old characters, hence the different icon during the fight.

this is a big confusion that most people have.

when you legitimately pick old sagat, hes been fucking nerfed to death. hes so slow. in ae, for the most part, they made old sagat basically the same as ssf2 sagat from what it feels like. if you want a sagat thats effective as hell, you have to pick hf sagat or ce sagat. and that shit aint gonna cut it if someone wants to use AE as an st only version, since hf/ce sagat will carry over the retarded dizzy properties.

hope this clears up a lot of confusion

[ToXY]

oh so you cant get an arcade perfect o.sagat on AE?

[Drunken Master]

NO.

["he got nerfed"]xN

:P

[Superking]

Can't we just end the whole HSF2 AE-ST arcade perfect argument by saying that AE is not ST and is just supposed to be its own crazy game?

P.S. Anybody got any good crossups with Claw? :D

[SaBrE]

agreed. ae is just its own game.

anyway, back on topic. vega dive = crossup of ownage. other than that, not really

[Superking]

Ok, that's what I figured anyway, the wall dive shenanigans are more than enough.

[saroorhai]

How much do you think using the psx version affected the outcome of evo this year? And do you think that it would have been the same with the DC version?

Also, were these differences a surprise to the players? It has been announced for some time that the psx version was the one to be used, right?

Just curious.

[SaBrE]

i guaruntee the outcome woulda been drastically different if it was arcade. seeing cole as the only og st player in final 8 is beyond weird. watson, choi getting eliminated rather early is really funky. that NEVER happens. choi's sagat was not on par at all, watch him on arcade later that day and super choi came back full force, owning everyone up in the 3on3 tourney except gian. all his uppercuts were coming out and he was feeling the tiger speeds. on ps1, he clearly was not. watson was frustrated with bisons psycho crusher not going full screen like it should and various other things. kuni was also outraged with ps1 and how it recognizes pp for ppp attacks. so he got a lot of lariats when he wanted spd's. its really frustrating for the players.

when things dont work the way you are used to having it work, it gets really frustrating and discouraging. especially when you been playing on the arcade version almost exclusively for 11 years.

also, not taking away from players like nki and dsp. they are very strong players, who can manage top 8 anyways. but i think even buk was suprised at how high he ranked i would think. even tho he was playing well regardless.

hell, dc is a shit version too. i think the outcome woulda been different, but still not in a good way. when changing to dc, a whole other slew of problems arise. the biggest problem is sprite sizes are way too small. so that means more empty space on the screen which dramatically changes zoning tactics. plus some combos dont work right with the smaller sprites as well.

its just a no win situation. but its a process that needs to be adapted to since thats where the whole scene is headed, to shitty console

[margalis]

The fact that players complained about "differences" that ended up NOT being different makes me think the versions didn't affect much at all, or they did but not in the way people think.

Not to pick on people, but if someone is saying "WTF, in the arcade you can't duck that!" or "OMG, in the arcade this does way more damage!" and that turns out to be bogus, it doesn't seem to me they are all that detail-oriented to begin with. If they can't tell the difference and can only spot bogus differences, it's hard to believe it had much effect.

We aren't talking like A3 PSX or A2 Gold vs. Normal where there are pretty immediately obvious, game-changing differences.

[ParryAll]

Pardon my ignorance, what is a Supergun??

[Toodles]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperGun
A device that allows you to play arcade PCBs like the arcade SuperTurbo on a TV. 100% authentic arcade game without the hassle of a full cabinet.

[Golden_Gunman]

This is a great thread, but this is an idea for the moderators: Move parts of this thread into character specific threads in the "Other Games" section of the site. There is some absolute golddust here for any ST player, but you have to read through many pages split across two threads to get it. I think there should be a "complete" thread for every character, similarly to how it is laid out in some of the 3S sections. You could have "The complete Chun-Li ST thread," for example. Put a description of all her move-sets and strats, and then deal with character specific match-ups. Granted, you wouldn't get as much traffic as in this thread, but it would make things a LOT easier.

Maybe you could then keep this thread and in the first post just put a "linker" to every one of the "complete" threads.

Anyway, back to the spirit of this thread: I have a question, how do you deal with O.Sagat with N.Ken? Those tiger shots are so much faster than Ken's hado's. If I can get close enough I can psychic DP his long limbs when he throws one, or I can get in and Knee-bash throw shenanigans, but it is just really hard to get close. Even Ken's air hurricane is owned by Sagat. Any tips?

[r3ko]

Question, how do you combo guile's super. I've been trying to cancel crouch strong into it, but it just aint happening.

I've tried:
1.strong xx cdb, df, db, uf+K - super comes out too late and doesn't combo
2.cdb, df+strong, db, uf+K
3.cdb, df, db+strong, uf+K
These two just end up as strongs cancelling into flash kicks.

I also tried changing the last part to ub+K cause its quicker but still nothing. Whats the proper method of cancelling crouching strong or any other crouching attack with guile into super?

Thanks in advance
r3ko

[kesh!]

haha wtf i can never get guiles super off :((( I tried my hardest doing a 'smooth motion' like

cdb, d, df, d, db, d, df, f , uf + k that doesnt work :( am i going too slow?

[Desk]

3.cdb, df, db+strong, uf+K


it's that one, except hit ub+k insted. I like to kinda roll the stick from df all the way to up back (like a half rotation) hitting strong half way, i find it easier that way.

so the motion would be...cdb, df, d, db+strong, b, ub+k.

[r3ko]

Thanks alot, its working now, with some practice i'm sure i'll be able to get it off fairly consistently, the damage it does is deals out is impressive.

[Drunken Master]

Question, how do you combo guile's super. I've been trying to cancel crouch strong into it, but it just aint happening.

It's much easier (and more practical) to do 2 d.LKs or d.LPs into it. You can also hit-confirm this way and do it after crossup j.LK.

d.LP x2, super flash kick motion+LP~HK
or
d.LK x2, super flash kick motion+LK~HK

I think it's kara or renda cancelling or something.. meh, whatever it is, it is MUCH easier than straight up cancelling.

[Master Chibi]

NKI, JSJ, Sabre, whoever, can you guys suggest a character to start with for a begining player? Every time I play this game I feel stupid, the game doesn't sit well / feel right with me, and I'd like to remedy that. I'm not looking to win tournaments, just have some fun with it is all.

;p

[mukai]

NKI, JSJ, Sabre, whoever, can you guys suggest a character to start with for a begining player? Every time I play this game I feel stupid, the game doesn't sit well / feel right with me, and I'd like to remedy that. I'm not looking to win tournaments, just have some fun with it is all.

;p



well a gurly man like yourself should play with chun li.

[Duck Strong]

NKI, JSJ, Sabre, whoever, can you guys suggest a character to start with for a begining player? Every time I play this game I feel stupid, the game doesn't sit well / feel right with me, and I'd like to remedy that. I'm not looking to win tournaments, just have some fun with it is all.

;p

OG Ken is pretty simple.

[Superking]

Claw and Boxer are both ownage, not saying that you should start with them just saying. :tup:

[Master Chibi]

This game is alot more dependant on normals and knowing what beats what than much anything else I played, I've noticed that much.

I am leaning towards Chun-Li though.

;D

[Gen-An]

Dictator (Bison/Vega) is pretty easy to use IMO, and more than anything he is FUN!!!

[Buktooth]

fools are lucky i wasnt in the 3on3

THATS RIGHT I SAID IT

..

how come gian wins every throw battle against me (and not against nuki)?

[dogface]

And how come NKI is the goddamn sexiness? Besides playing XvSF, I am a psychic. Behold:

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97513

What's up Buk? I'm Victor, I met you playing random a3 and st matches in Valle's room at like 9 am. Good shit dood. Too bad you're a bully.

-vic

[Saotome Kaneda]

fools are lucky i wasnt in the 3on3

THATS RIGHT I SAID IT

..

how come gian wins every throw battle against me (and not against nuki)?
Haha

No Vietnambush for you this year, huh? =p

[Renegade]

Ok... I have to ask this... NKI... what the hell was up with the character selection in Top 8 this year?

4 chuns? (you, buk, nuki, tokido) (even though I saw tokido use Vega too)

What the heck was with that? I know Chun's pretty good... but isn't she strictly mid tier in this game? (dhalsim+bosses=top, then come shotos+ dee jay).

And the counterpoint, where was O.Sagat? Chun's most feared counter character?

And, my friend Billy was discussing the Vega "soft ban" in Japan that people have talked about. Which made me think that when I went to Japan, I saw vega's being played (a really cheap CE vega at MORE). Is the "soft ban" thing really true? I'm starting to think not.

Thanks for your time

[margalis]

Actually I think dictator is one of the harder characters to use at first. He has nothing abusable at all.

Easy players to start with, I would say DJ is pretty easy. He has an ansti-air special, a fireball, decent normals, a crossup, etc. OG Ken is a good choice, any Ryu is a good choice. OG Boxer is a good choice as well. (And OG Boxer is pretty good to boot, very underrated.)

[ThyAllMighty]

how is og ken diff from new ken? also, other than knee bash trickery and short short super, what is new ken good at? (i'm picking him up)

i'm also picking up feilong, any tips with him other than whoring lk firedp?

[SpinalBlood]

Maybe better cross-ups

Anyway, ST is the dogs!

[sondogg]

I need help on a ryu vs fei long matchup I have no idea what to do in that situation and in short, I got raped by sabre in my ST pool last week.

[SaBrE]

oh hehe i played you? i remember.

big thing with fighting fei long with a shoto is you cannot wiff against him. when fei sits outside of shotos maximum effective range, you just make the shoto player barely wiff a low forward/sweep/dp, and its free rekka all day. definitely need to know your ranges with shotos in that matchup or you will eat rekkas all day. good thing to do if fei is that close on you and jumping ends up not working, is use fireballs in his face when fei is sitting right outside the shotos max range. its fast enough to where he cant react, and he cant do rekkas. but the fei player can predict this and do an early jump or try and hit you with a dp (feis initial dp frames have insanely good range) so you still need to be wary.

easiest way to beat fei tho, is just zone him out. get away from him, get breathing space, and force him to jump over fireballs. and sweep fei everytime he lands. as far as i know, fei has no jumpins to beat a shoto's AA sweep from max distance. from that range, fei has a VERY VERY hard fight. if its n.fei, he has a better chance to get inside with using his jackknife kicks(or whatever its called), if its o.fei, its damn near impossible for him to win when he gets stuck in the fireball sweep loop.

hope that kinda helped bud

[I Am Lothar]

Does anyone want to write an easy mode ST Dhalsim guide for me? I want to pick him up but I haven't found much basic info on him. Just the basics would be great, thanks in advance.

Repost because Search is failing like a Southern abortion.

[ParryPerson.]

Help my sagat not be so damn scrubby.

I throw tigers then uppercut obvious fuck up jump-ins and Cr.RH sometimes all day.

Make me un scrubby.

[Hol Horse]

Actually I think dictator is one of the harder characters to use at first. He has nothing abusable at all.


st. Short ticks/mixups are quite abusable IMHO.

[Vintage]

Same thing you should do as N.Ryu against Sim, and the same thing I do in practically every match when playing as Chun: don't fight until you have meter. The round is totally different (in your favor) when you have meter, so why bother attacking before then? Just trade fireballs, Short HK over some low ones, etc until you get meter. Yeah, you may have to block a few, but that's OK. He'll stop shooting once you get that meter.



-Nicholai!

Which is precisely why I think HF>ST

I know, some may think wow, Vin is hating on ST again. But no, I'm not. I think ST IS a good game. It's just that it's far from being the best SF2 game. Everytime I play ST I just can't stop pondering:

So, if my opponent didn't have a meter, would he just get peaced out in 15secs? He may or may not. Either way, it's difficult for me to come to the conclusion that many ST players that choose chars with the meter have some sort of old skool foundation (and yes, I do realize that there are those exceptional few). Like if they were to play HF or CE, would they still be somewhat successful? Meh, my ST rant is done...for now.

[Eishi]

st. Short ticks/mixups are quite abusable IMHO.

He has to get close first, which is not an easy task most of the times.

[Drunken Master]

Bison blocked scissors into throw is a friggin' combo I swear. :P

[Saotome Kaneda]

Help my sagat not be so damn scrubby.

I throw tigers then uppercut obvious fuck up jump-ins and Cr.RH sometimes all day.

Make me un scrubby.
Umm...Walk up s.Shorts? Psychic Tiger Uppercut limbs? There's actually not much to Sagat, any version of him. Whiff Tiger Knee on crouchers XX throw works every so often....:confused:

[JeRon]

People should play AE since ST is mad old already.
ST infinity!!! :karate:

Vega is top 2 in the game!

Gaygaaaaaa!!!!!

[Spider-Dan]

O.Sim can't do it because the slide is counted as a far move, and because you can't control O.Sim's normals, he automatically does the close cr.Forward (N.Sim's D/B+Forward kick). I really see absolutely no reason to ever play O.Sim, because as far as I know, he has no advantages over N.Sim, only disadvantages.
Supposedly, O.Sim has slightly longer throw range.

[DarksydePhil]

O.Sagat........

...there's really not much to him once you learn the basics.

From far away, throw low tigers to pin them down. When they jump, Tiger uppercut of they are close enough, if not do standing FP to knock them out of the air.

When jumping, always use jump RH, it magically beats a million things and does massive damage on connect. If you happen to land a jumping RH, combo into either:
1. low forward kick, roundhouse tiger shot (sometimes dizzies)
2. stand light kick (1-2 hits depending on distance), roundhouse tiger shot
3. if you land DEEP, 1-2 hit standing forward kick with OPTION of either 1-hit Tiger uppercut or roundhouse tiger knee for 1-2 hits.

Basically what you want to choose as your combo depends on your distance from your opponent. If you want to go for a quick dizzy and you've landed deep enough, go for the low forward kick into tiger shot. However, this doesn't always combo if you're not close enough and also doesn't always dizzy. A more reliable combo is option 2, where the stand light kick ALWAYS connects for 1-2 hits and then the tiger shot is guaranteed. If you get lucky enough to connect the jump RH and you land deep, do the standing forward and judging on the results, either cancel into Tiger uppercut after 1 hit or go for the gold with the 2-hit tiger knee if the forward is deep enough to land twice.

What do you do if your jump RH doesn't connect, and they block? In that case either do a blocked standing light kick into tiger shot, or just do the roundhouse tiger shot by itself as soon as you land. This will keep them pinned and taking a bit of block damage.

Now if you end up close, O.Sagat has two awesome options. One is simply his low roundhouse, which is very fast, has decent range, and does a crapload of damage. If you time it right, you can play a wicked game of footsies that will really damage the opponent if they're just slightly out of range and keep whiffing, and you just sweep to punish them afterwards. The other option is just stand light kick, with the option of following with a roundhouse tiger shot. This is good for guaranteed block damage and you don't have to worry about missing and getting counter-swept, since the stand light kick has considerable range and keeps them blocking.

My only warning with O.Sagat is getting over-zealous. DON'T do too many "psychic" tiger uppercuts or you will be getting your ass handed to you. Also, don't try to play TOO many footsies with stand short or crouching roundhouse and just assume you're going to hit every time...sometimes you can get stuffed with DPs or special moves and it can get frustrating to get back to your "zone game" when the opponent has control of the round after a knockdown.

[DarksydePhil]

Also to Vintage:

Considering that only a handful of the ST cast have useful supers....namely Chun, Ryu, Dhalsim, Honda, Vega (dictator), and Balrog (the boxer), I don't see how the issue of people "being good without super bar" is an issue at all. I play Balrog, Blanka and Dee Jay primarily, and to be totally honest their supers blow. The only reason I ever connect with a Blanka super is because people see it so rarely, they don't understand it's properties and end up trying to jump or hit it instead of just blocking. Most supers are slow and absolute garbage in this game, so to argue that supers are scrubby or whatever your point is, doesn't really make sense.

And yes, we can all play CE and HF, thanks!

[DarksydePhil]

Somebody help me out with beating E. Honda? I use Guile, and Balrog(claw).

What are my best Jump-in options with Guile and Balrog(if that is the thing to do)?

Should I turtle? cause with Guile, I normally play aggressive, I just don't normally understand this match-up. I'm normallly real good with pressure and flash kick traps and such, but it just seems like a tough match-up for me, seeing as I don't know many people who play with Honda, and it seems like a 50/50 match-up to me.plus I constantly get caught up in the bacbreaker grab into thousand hand slap in the corner. I know he shouldn't even get that close, but he does psychic headbutts and he makes me whiff flashkicks by doing the lp version of the move. I use the Champion edition version of Guile or the turbo version. Sometimes the ST version.

It seems like an easier match-up for Balrog, considering his pokes and air game, but lately he's been improving on it. He's learning not to jump-in as much, and he's playing alot safer, more turtleing, and stuff like that

Any input?

-Fritz




I can answer this for Balrog:

You DON'T beat Honda.

This is one of ST's clear-cut counter matches. The reason? As soon as the game says FIGHT, Honda holds down-back to start charging his headbutt. And from then on, you are fucked.

If you try to walk forward, he does fierce headbutt and you are forced to block, while he gets his charge back.

If you jump forward, no matter what button you press you WILL be eating a version of the headbutt.

If you just jump around like a fool all day, it becomes a guessing game if he will or will not do the headbutt. A good Honda will NOT make a move until you advance towards him and then he will headbutt and make you block or eat the move.

Contrary to popular belief, you can't wall dive all day. If you try to walldive on either side, if your claw comes into contact with Honda's body he has the ability to do a jab punch headbutt and get a clean hit.

Basically, the ONLY way to fight Honda with Vega is to cause him to make mistakes. Do a bunch of crouching short kicks, try to walk up to him and jump OVER making him lose his charge and then attempt throw setups, etc. But if you're fighting even a half-decent Honda, you will get peaced out and there's nothing you can do if he just sits still and never attacks.


When you see Cigarbob's 3v3 Team ST footage, this is exactly what happens to me. We are playing some random team and a Honda player just sits still and refuses to attack me, causing me to try to get him to move with a few jumps, random attacks, and wall dives. All of which get hit clean by headbutts. At one point I even take my hands off the controls and you'll hear me say to the camera "theres nothing I can do, I can't press buttons." Gay, yes, but true nonetheless.

[DarksydePhil]

Can't we just end the whole HSF2 AE-ST arcade perfect argument by saying that AE is not ST and is just supposed to be its own crazy game?

P.S. Anybody got any good crossups with Claw? :D

A good question is, why are you trying to crossup with Balrog? Balrog is a poking and throwing character, 0% of his strategy is based on crossups. If you're going to try jump attacks, always use a slightly early jump RH, and when you land your actions depends on if it hit or not:
1. if the roundhouse hit, do crouching forward kick comboed into crouching MP. this does pretty hefty damage for a 3-hit combo and if you just hit him a few times, he will dizzy.
2. if the roundhouse is blocked, depending on your distance from the opponent you have the option of trying to throw, or doing a crouching MP or slide. Be CAREFUL with the slide because you NEVER want to slide when close, it leaves you wide open.

Hope this helps, cut it out with the crossups! Just like Sabre said the only time to ever cross up with Vega is a random wall dive.

[el_diablo]

Considering that only a handful of the ST cast have useful supers....namely[...] Honda

care to explain why do you think his super is useful? except in pretty hard to do combos and negating 1 projectile, that shit almost never combos, and startup is not really good.

I'm just curious since I play honda a little, and I don't have any uses for that super.

[DarksydePhil]

well a gurly man like yourself should play with chun li.

In my opinion, good beginning character choices are New Ryu and Dee Jay. New Ryu is just really good all-around and gets you the basic idea behind shoto play...fireball traps, uppercut, sweep, etc. Getting a base with New Ryu can set you up to play with both versions of Ken and O.Sagat.

Dee Jay is a great charge character to use as a beginner, and he doesn't have a lot of hardcore "counter" matches to worry about. You learn how to retain both types of charges properly and how to deal with "jumpers" (people who jump over your fireball once you throw it) without having a DP like a shoto.


Once you learn those basics, branch out. Try the other shotos or Guile/Chun. Then you can move on to the weirdoes like Honda, Balrog, Vega and Bison. Or you can just pick Sim, you stretchy-armed whore.

[DarksydePhil]

care to explain why do you think his super is useful? except in pretty hard to do combos and negating 1 projectile, that shit almost never combos, and startup is not really good.

I'm just curious since I play honda a little, and I don't have any uses for that super.

Simply put, he can store the super. Because you can store the super, you get all kinds of fake-outs that can put pressure on your opponent and force them into the corner...which is exactly what you're looking to do with Honda.

Do the super motion and keep holding forward without pressing punch, then quickly jump forward, and crouch down-forward instead of down-back like usual when you land. The opponent thinks you're blocking backwards and tries to attack with footies or throw a fireball. Just press forward and punch to unlease the beast and blast through whatever it is they're trying to do. OOPS, they crapped their pants and ate a decent amount of damage.

The super is very BAD for anti-air uses, for sure. Sometimes it whiffs completely or trades or only hits once, leaving you open afterwards. It's also best used at close to mid-range...at far range it doesn't hit properly when it finally arrives.

[el_diablo]

that's how i use it, but it doesn't seem really reliable. even from close to mid, i store it, try to go through hados or whatever, and when the first hit lands, it never combos afterward.

so here's my question. using it to go through hados makes it harder to land all the hits, or is the super THAT random?

[ParryPerson.]

Thanks for the good O.Sagat shit DarksydePhil

[I Am Lothar]

Darksyde do a quick write up for N.Dhalsim.

[margalis]

Considering that only a handful of the ST cast have useful supers....namely Chun, Ryu, Dhalsim, Honda, Vega (dictator), and Balrog (the boxer), I don't see how the issue of people "being good without super bar" is an issue at all.


Zangief and T. Hawk both have useful supers, assuming you can tick into them, which isn't hard.

Of course, you list of guys with useful supers is pretty close to the list of top characters - certainly not all coincidence. All the storable supers are silly, really a stupid bug that never should have made it into the game. Chun's is probably the worst when combined with her fast foot speed, it's a get out of jail free card when she's way behind, store the super, walk up, mix up throws and supers and maybe you'll get lucky and win when you really shouldn't have. It's retarded that you can get 40% damage for just releasing a button at the right time.

As far as Vega vs. Honda is concerned...don't get behind. Nothing says you have to attack. The other thing you can do is walk towards Honda mixing with a liberal amount of jumping backwards and kicking. It's basically the same matchup as Blanka vs. Honda.

[Saotome Kaneda]

We are playing some random team and a Honda player just sits still and refuses to attack me, causing me to try to get him to move with a few jumps, random attacks, and wall dives. All of which get hit clean by headbutts. At one point I even take my hands off the controls and you'll hear me say to the camera "theres nothing I can do, I can't press buttons."

Damn, here's a guy I haven't seen post in like, a year. 'sup DSP? Good shit at Evo bro.

That is a sad matchup though. =/ What other matchups are actually positive for Honda?

[DarksydePhil]

Zangief and T. Hawk both have useful supers, assuming you can tick into them, which isn't hard.

Of course, you list of guys with useful supers is pretty close to the list of top characters - certainly not all coincidence. All the storable supers are silly, really a stupid bug that never should have made it into the game. Chun's is probably the worst when combined with her fast foot speed, it's a get out of jail free card when she's way behind, store the super, walk up, mix up throws and supers and maybe you'll get lucky and win when you really shouldn't have. It's retarded that you can get 40% damage for just releasing a button at the right time.

As far as Vega vs. Honda is concerned...don't get behind. Nothing says you have to attack. The other thing you can do is walk towards Honda mixing with a liberal amount of jumping backwards and kicking. It's basically the same matchup as Blanka vs. Honda.


If you think having supers that take forever to build up and that it's just as easy to land those throw supers as the ones I listed, you must be better than Kuni at tick throwing!

My list of useful supers is most definitely not the top tier list of the game. Chun isn't top, Honda certainly isn't top, Ryu is probably just below top, Dictator Bison isn't top. In fact, if you look at the true top tier of the game - arguably Vega (claw), O.Sagat, O.Ken, and N.Dhalsim, only ONE of them uses a super effectively.

Is charging supers a glitch? Yes, it is. But honestly, so is comboing three air hyper vipers beams with Cable...the creators of the game didn't expect the charge system of ST, or the air-super system of MvC2, to work that way, but it just ended up being like that. People have grown to accept it. It may give Chun an advantage in certain situations, yes, but it's certainly not game-breaking.

As for the Honda-Vega matchup, your argument is that you "shouldn't get behind." You're forgetting one crucial thing: as soon as Honda does a headbutt and you block, you are behind. You can't do anything to chip because headbutt stops it all easily, with little timing. SO unless both of you sit still and do absolutely nothing, and you keep a charge so you can backflip a headbutt perfectly on reaction...you will always be behind in that matchup, UNLESS your opponent makes a mistake. Which is exactly what I said in my strategy...that matchup is random unless your opponent just sits and headbutts all day, in which case you lose 100% and there's nothing you can do.

The Blanka-Honda matchup is even worse, because you can't do ANY specials without getting headbutted afterwards for free. In fact, your best bet in that matchup is just to walk forward and wait for headbutt, and when you see it jump directly backwards with forward kick and pray you beat the headbutt or land behind it, so you can throw and then run the rest of the match. But good luck jumping perfectly and not eating the headbutt or blocking...in which case, you lose for free.

And of course, in both matches you're forgetting that Honda can just mash medium punch at any time for free chip, and you're behind from that point onward.

Other matchups for Honda that are positive?

Let's run down the lineup...

Honda flat out loses to shotos, so Ryu and Ken are out.
Honda beats Blanka clean.
Honda vs Gief....honestly Gief can't do anything in this match if he can't get a knockdown. The only way he'll pull that off vs. a good turtle Honda is to do a lariat when Honda does a random headbutt. If Honda is a good enough turtle, he can block the whole time and do headbutt on reaction of Gief tries to attack, then use medium punch hand slaps to chip if he gets into range, then just keep blocking. If you DON'T get knocked down, this match is a win for free.
Honda vs. Chun: crappy match. Chun's jump short beats a lot of crap and sometimes crosses up Honda randomly. Her fireballs give him trouble too and her upkick can go through jump attacks and buttdrops. If she gets inside you will have a lot of probs and she will start getting free crossups you can do nothing about. Best case scenario is to just wait it out beginning of match...if she advances, do a headbutt and wait her out. If she throws a fireball, make sure you have charge for buttsplash and do it quickly. If she jumps, do jab headbutt as if it were a shoryuken to knock her out of her shorts...but watch out because if she starts doing flips on you or crosses you up, you are royally fucked. It's a hard match for Honda.
Honda vs. Guile: Honda can actually win this match convincingly if he does the right thing at the beginning of the round. Just wait it out and wait for the first sonic boom while Guile is still close....if he jumps back, do a fierce headbutt quickly to get closer to him....range is the key in this match. Once the sonic boom comes out, do a splash, then follow up with medium punch hands. Repeat, he's going to be forced to throw booms if you're ahead and you can just keep splashing and slapping over and over. If he jumps, HEADBUTT. BUT if Guile gets away from you, you WILL get zoned with booms/jumpkicks/sweeps so you will be fucked if you're ever NOT close to him.
Honda vs. Sim: This match is supposed to be a fair match, but the more I play it the more I find that Sim is just too good. His fireballs are slow enough so if you try to jump or splash over, you will eat foot or slides. Again the key is staying close enough so Sim can't zone you out from long distance...but the problem is, Sim has ridiculous throw priority, so if you try to splash over a close fireball and follow up, he might throw you out of it, or just start doing crazy drills all over you. Tough match but a turtle Honda SHOULD prevail if he stays inside.
Honda vs. Balrog (boxer) is tough, because he can just do rush punches to you and if you try to guess and do headbutt, he can end up using HIS headbutt and royally fucking you. Same thing with your slaps...he can headbutt through them which is pretty stupid. If you miss a headbutt (you do a jab headbutt and it whiffs for example) you will be eating punches and then blocking for ages. If you try random splashes Rog's headbutt can escape or even hit you out of it. Tough, but if you block a lot and can do headbutts on reaction, you can win.
Honda vs. Vega (claw) is clean win for Honda.
Honda vs. O.Sagat is interesting match, because Honda's headbutt actually goes OVER the low tiger shot, which a LOT of people don't even know. BUT as I told Flash at EVO this year, if your opponent knows this they will just throw random high tigers and totally fuck up your game...you can't headbutt if they just keep throwing them, leaving you to jump (And eat uppercut or stand FP) or splash (eat uppercut or sweep). It's a tough match for Honda and I say O.Sagat wins clean.
Honda vs. Bison (dictator): honestly I'm not sure how this match goes because I don't think I've ever even played it, since I don't use either of the characters much. However, if you can keep using properly spaced splashes, it's likely there's not much Bison can do. The problem is making him block that first splash and then continuing the low forward kick->buffer into properly spaced splash...because Bison is usually doing scissors and torpedoes and all kinds of shit in your fat face that you can't do much about. From what I remember the headbutt doesn't beat either of those specials clean except in certain cases...this would be a tough match for Honda I would assume, but I'm not too sure.
Honda loses to Dee Jay clean, there's just nothing he can do to a good zoning Dee Jay.
Honda vs. Fei: no idea really but I would have to say a turtling Honda would win this one.
Honda vs. THawk: Same matchup as Gief except THawk has a few things he can use - jumping jab which has ridiculous priority and WILL knock you out of a buttsplash...and his dive down/dive up. THawk will try to fool you into blocking a dive that misses and then throw or tick into throw...OR be even sneakier and make you think you can attack after the whiffed dive and then do the dive up through whatever you're doing. However, a turtle Honda can win this match if he just blocks all day and does headbutts on reaction.
Honda vs. Cammy: think about it, what can Cammy do to you besides try to do the hooligan throw, or try to cross up? Just block and headbutt on reaction.

I think that covers it...

[Scamp]

My list of useful supers is most definitely not the top tier list of the game. Chun isn't top, Honda certainly isn't top, Ryu is probably just below top, Dictator Bison isn't top. In fact, if you look at the true top tier of the game - arguably Vega (claw), O.Sagat, O.Ken, and N.Dhalsim, only ONE of them uses a super effectively.

The Blanka-Honda matchup is even worse, because you can't do ANY specials without getting headbutted afterwards for free. In fact, your best bet in that matchup is just to walk forward and wait for headbutt, and when you see it jump directly backwards with forward kick and pray you beat the headbutt or land behind it, so you can throw and then run the rest of the match. But good luck jumping perfectly and not eating the headbutt or blocking...in which case, you lose for free.

O. Ken is top-tier? Could you explain this? I'm not much of a ST player but I don't think I've heard anyone argue this before.

Once I saw Tragic play his Blanka against a Honda at a tourney. I think he did a lot of standing forwards to hit Honda out of his headbutt.

[ThyAllMighty]

I'm actually trying to learn N.Ken over O.Ken, cause N.Ken has knee bash tricks, short short super and crazy stun combo (which i don't know how to do, please list it). But other than that, could you elaborate what O.Ken has over N.Ken?

[Vintage]

Also to Vintage:

And yes, we can all play CE and HF, thanks!

I'll believe it when I see it.

And yes, some supers are scrubby. But either way, at the end of the day, supers just do not belong in old skool.

[Eishi]

could you elaborate what O.Ken has over N.Ken?

His dps have more invincibility, everybody knows that. But he also has slighly better fireballs, according to the frame data that can be found on T. Akiba's site : http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/flame.html

They come out one frame faster (13 for old ken and 14 for new ken) and they have better recovery : 39 for old ken (lp mp and hp fireballs) and 39 (lp), 40 (mp), 41 (hp) for new ken.

There's also another difference that people don't always take in consideration, it's that super characters don't have the possibility to tech throws, and tech throws are very useful in this game.


Edit : Thanks to this site http://xmania.hp.infoseek.co.jp/, I was able to find the names of most of the players featured on the Xmania 4 videos that Eidrian released. Here are the names for the singles tournament : http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/6888/xmania4singles2aj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

If anyone is interested, I'll also post the names for the 3 on 3 tournament.

[Drunken Master]

His dps have more invincibility, everybody knows that. But he also has slighly better fireballs, according to the frame data that can be found on T. Akiba's site : http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/flame.html

Eishi, think you can help a guy out and give some tips on reading the info from that site? All I see is lots of "@"s and squares and stuff. The numbers are there, but I can't tell what they correspond with.

Even some japanese (which I can't read) would be better than that..

[Eishi]

Click on the "view" tab of your browser, then click on "charater encoding". Choose japanese, if you don't have the japanese fonts installed on your PC it should propose you to download them.

[Drunken Master]

*smacks forehead* Ahh!

alright, thanks man.

EDIT: do'h.. it's asking me for XP disc 2? wtf?

In any case, I got it to work in Firefox, but it's not much better. I'll paypal someone some money if they can translate it for me. :)

[Superking]

Thanks for the Claw info DSP. :tup:

[margalis]

If you think having supers that take forever to build up and that it's just as easy to land those throw supers as the ones I listed, you must be better than Kuni at tick throwing!



Is charging supers a glitch? Yes, it is. But honestly, so is comboing three air hyper vipers beams with Cable...


No, it certainly isn't game breaking. It is a valid complain about ST though.



As for the Honda-Vega matchup, your argument is that you "shouldn't get behind." You're forgetting one crucial thing: as soon as Honda does a headbutt and you block, you are behind.


Yeah..I know. I'm not saying it's an easy fight or something. I mean, it's probably 8-2 Honda. But it's not like there is nothing at all you can do.

For Honda to actually get ahead isn't *that* easy if you are willing to sit there and do nothing. Of course, then the match consists of both characters just doing nothing.

It's easier for Vega because he can flip kick or just flip through a headbutt, whereas Blanka just has to block it or jump over it.

You are approaching this fight like Honda can sit there doing nothing and Vega has to attack. Vega doesn't have to attack, he can also sit there and do nothing.

Blanka-Honda is obviously awful. But you don't lose for free the first time you block. I mean, if you walk straight up to Honda he has to do SOMETHING, and if that's a headbutt you can jump back and hit him. Obviously he has to press a button at some point.

I think this discussion is mostly academic because like I said Vega-Honda is probably 2-8 and Blanka-Honda 1-9. However I wouldn't take my hand off the controller and say there was nothing I could do...


Honda vs. O.Sagat is interesting match, because Honda's headbutt actually goes OVER the low tiger shot, which a LOT of people don't even know.


There are people that don't know this...seriously? I remember how strange it was in Alpha or CVS or whatever where Honda's headbutt would go under high tigers instead of over low ones. I find it really hard to believe that people don't know this...maybe people who started playing 3 weeks ago...

[Eishi]

Blanka vs Honda is not a hard matchup. Mp electricity has something like 80% chances of countering the headbutt. You can also jump straight up then press lk on the way down. Often times, people make the mistake of using Blanka's rolling attack in an offensive way when in fact it is more reliable as a defense tool. It comes out instantly (zero frames) so it's a good way to counter tick throws, for example. You can also use it to make nice tricks : after you knock down your opponent with 3 hp or 2 hk, do a rolling attack. Depending on the spacing and the button used, you'll end up in front of them or behind them.

I just wanted to clarify the use of the rolling attack. This is clearly not blanka's biggest asset. Blanka has very good normals, great combos with great dizzy potential and a very unique jump, which allow him to do things other characters can not do.

[DarksydePhil]

Blanka vs Honda is not a hard matchup. Mp electricity has something like 80% chances of countering the headbutt. You can also jump straight up then press lk on the way down. Often times, people make the mistake of using Blanka's rolling attack in an offensive way when in fact it is more reliable as a defense tool. It comes out instantly (zero frames) so it's a good way to counter tick throws, for example. You can also use it to make nice tricks : after you knock down your opponent with 3 hp or 2 hk, do a rolling attack. Depending on the spacing and the button used, you'll end up in front of them or behind them.

I just wanted to clarify the use of the rolling attack. This is clearly not blanka's biggest asset. Blanka has very good normals, great combos with great dizzy potential and a very unique jump, which allow him to do things other characters can not do.



The problem with your strategy is that it isn't practical in a real game. Nobody can do MP electricity on reaction of seeing a headbutt, so good luck getting it to come out when Honda starts doing FP headbutts. And jumping straight up? I'm sure that works when you're at fullscreen distance, but let's face it, when have you ever seen Honda do a FULL SCREEN headbutt? Honda's best range to fight is mid, because he has the option of doing a quick FP headbutt at any time and more than likely making you block since you're too close to jump on reaction.

Trust me, I'm not trying to shit on Blanka here, if you know me you'd know that I play him a LOT in casuals and have been trying to make him a legitimate tournament character for years. However, in a Honda vs. Blanka match, Blanka literally can't do a think to a super-turtling Honda. If you sit still, he can headbutt and chip. If you walk forward, he can headbutt and you can't jump fast enough since you're too close. You can NEVER do a ball in the matchup, which is pretty lame, unless it's desperation and you need to escape a throw setup (in which case Honda may not have a charge). And you certainly can't do MP electricity on reaction to stop FP headbutts, ESPECIALLY at mid-range, unless you've been practicing a ridiculous amount or have a turbo joystick. Blanka gets owned up in this matchup if Honda just turtles.

[RedTide]

Can I get some general Guile strats? I can super, but comboing into it seems practically impossible. I'm sure the japanese players can do it, but I don't have the execution for it :lol:

[margalis]

I think the point was you can do MP electricity and from there Honda is the one that has to do something. (I'm not going to pretend I knew MP elec stops the headbutt) Or else you both can just sit there. If Honda moves forward, you can stop the electricity and poke at him. If he doesn't move forward...well that's a pretty boring game.

Honda is a very poorly designed character. There are way too many matches where the best strategy for both chars is to do nothing. Honda can be played too reactively and having a special that is very good anti-ground and anti-air is a bad idea.

As far as Blanka being a legit tourney character...good luck. I have a lot of Blanka tricks up my sleeve that can win some matches but once the tricks run out Blanka just doesn't have a lot of the tools other chars have.

[Eishi]

DarksydePhil :

Of course you can't do that on reaction, but it will prevent them from doing headbutts from afar. It obligates Honda to find another way to get in. And jump straight up lk also works if you are near honda. I'm not an expert blanka player but I like to play with him from time to time, and no Honda player I've played gave me lots of trouble.

If you have the Xmania 4 videos, there's a blanka vs honda match. The blanka player does a lot of jump straight up lk's and the honda player can't headbutt him for free. The match is pretty close, and it's far from being the sort of total washout you would expect from a 9-1 match (btw the blanka player wins in this video). Also, don't forget blanka's crossup lk, it's a great offensive tool and it works well on honda.

[Gen-An]

Electric Thunder obligates Honda to find another way to get in? Since when does Honda WANT to get in? All Honda wants to do vs non-FB chars is camp in defensive crouch and headbutt anything they try to do. If I had Honda and you decided to do electricity, I'd just sit there and watch you; I don't care. It doesn't bother me.

[Maxstah]

Hrm, must chime in on this blanka honda debate. I say yes honda does have the upper hand but blankas best asset against honda is his jump straight up rh, For some reason the priority when he's jumping straight up as opposed to towards the opponent is 10 fold. Getting about a character length away from honda and randomly jumping straight up with the rh will usually bait a Head butt and hit it clean or if he decided to do that flashkick belly move (sorry not into legit names) it hits that as well. if it were to whiff alot of the time blanka can move after landing and reach with a crouch fierce or crouch rh while hondas recovering from the headbutt and then get in range again. honda has to stand up cuz a late rh on way down is a nasty overhead that u don't see coming cuz looks to far away. Add in not doing anything and landing with a crouching rh can really play havoc. Stannd short is also a monster anti headbutt poke. When in doubt. Stick it out. If honda didn't headbutt there isn't a move gonna hit blanka on reaction from it.Now of course this is ST ya'll talkin bout so yea thats about it for blankas chances against honda. AE of course is a different monster. Something I find odd though. All blankas Electricties hit honda clean out of headbutts 100% Except for SF2 Honda torpedos which clean every Electricity of every version. Personally i'd rather fight honda with Blanka more then Thawk. Fuu that match.

[Eishi]

So what ? Blanka can also sit there... and do jump straight up lks in case Honda wants to get in. And if he doesn't want to, that makes things easier for Blanka. Btw, I rarely see Honda played in a defensive way. It's a better choice for him to try to get in and use his throws, crossups, hundered hands slap, flying move... This makes things much harder for the opponent.

[NKI]

To everyone asking for "general strats", I can not stress enough that it is infinitely better (and more efficient!) to simply watch match vids of top players. There is now a wealth of footage available online, featuring the world's best players. Go to combovideos.com, or hit up the GFB hub, or my fserv in #gamecombos.

If you have a specific question, no prob, but it takes way too long to type up "general strats", given that each character has 16 match-ups to be worried about.

How much do you think using the psx version affected the outcome of evo this year? And do you think that it would have been the same with the DC version?

Also, were these differences a surprise to the players? It has been announced for some time that the psx version was the one to be used, right?Gian was without a doubt the best ST player there, by far. He would have won regardless. As for the others, I dunno. I certainly expected all the regular big names to be top 8, but I think maybe rust had a lot to do with it. Most top ST players admit to only playing the game a couple of times per year, and I know if I did that, I wouldn't be playing anywhere near my best. On top of that, there were also several people coming in fresh (peeps who had actually been playing), so they had that advantage going for them too. Also keep in mind that Valle didn't enter. Gian was the only person I saw consistently beat Valle in casuals/3-on-3/side tourneys, so I am pretty sure Valle would have placed quite well if he had entered.

As for the complaints, the only legitimate, game-changing difference that I've heard so far was from Kuni, about the input differences. Deejay being able to duck under Boxer's st.Fierce is simply not true. If peeps really don't believe me (why would I lie about this?), then I will cap and upload video proof, if that's what it takes.

Actually, Chun also was changed, but because I practiced on the PSX version before Evo, I knew about it, and I avoided it. (She can't use her medium upkicks anymore because there is a HUGE amount of lag while she's falling, and she gets no follow-ups afterwards). But it's really not a big deal...just use Short upkicks instead.

Anyway, back to the spirit of this thread: I have a question, how do you deal with O.Sagat with N.Ken?Are you using the Juice Kick? (Instant air hurricane kick towards him.) Hit up/towards, then immediately do a hurricane kick. You can use that to get over low shots. It's almost like a teleport that hits.

NKI, JSJ, Sabre, whoever, can you guys suggest a character to start with for a begining player?My suggestion would be Claw. You don't have to do anything complex to win with him.

well a gurly man like yourself should play with chun li.What are you trying to say about people who play Chun? I play Chun, and I'm as rough-and-tumble as they come.

OK, that's a lie...

fools are lucky i wasnt in the 3on3

THATS RIGHT I SAID ITBuktizzle would show everyone what st.Strong is all about. No one can out-mash CHAMPbell.

how come gian wins every throw battle against me...except Gian...

And how come NKI is the goddamn sexiness? Besides playing XvSF, I am a psychic. Behold:

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97513What was that a link for? It's broken now. :sad:

4 chuns? (you, buk, nuki, tokido) (even though I saw tokido use Vega too)

What the heck was with that? I know Chun's pretty good... but isn't she strictly mid tier in this game?I dunno why she's so popular. The only reason I play her is because most people don't know how to fight against her, so that makes it hella easier to win.

And the counterpoint, where was O.Sagat? Chun's most feared counter character?O.Sagat definitely has the advantage in that matches, but I fear Fei Long more than O.Sagat. I still get nightmares of playing against Noguchi's Fei...:sad:

And, my friend Billy was discussing the Vega "soft ban" in Japan that people have talked about. Which made me think that when I went to Japan, I saw vega's being played (a really cheap CE vega at MORE). Is the "soft ban" thing really true? I'm starting to think not.No such thing. And that CE Claw was probably More Balrog, the world's most hated Claw player...he is dirty...

Bison blocked scissors into throw is a friggin' combo I swear. :PActually every character can throw him for free after point blank scissor kicks.

Supposedly, O.Sim has slightly longer throw range.This has been tested and is false.

Side note: Honda's super gets my vote for worse super in the game, because it:
-gets beat by st.Jab on reaction
-is punishable by every character if blocked
-is randomly punishable even if it hits

Though Blanka's super isn't far behind...


-Nicholai!

[margalis]

Ok, here is a question along with some interesting trivia. Blanka's parabolic ball attack doesn't always bounce off the opponent, if it hits on the way up it keeps going. In addition, it can hit more than once! Against Sagat and Hawk (IIRC) it can hit three times. Blanka will just keep spinning forward and hitting.

My question is this: Is there any real use for this? One thing I've never gotten a chance to try is to hit with a ball on the way up against an airborne opponent, then juggle with the super. (Opponent has to be in corner for this to have any chance of working)

Edit: The sad part about Blanka's super is that it's really easy to power it up, and then it's basically useless.

[WraithCo]

[Edit]
Currently considering something more effective.

[Spider-Dan]

Is charging supers a glitch? Yes, it is. But honestly, so is comboing three air hyper vipers beams with Cable...the creators of the game didn't expect the charge system of ST, or the air-super system of MvC2, to work that way, but it just ended up being like that.
It's not even remotely the same thing.

The developers knew that AHVB has [x] amount of startup and creates >[x] amount of hitstun. While they certainly don't anticipate all the ways players will use moves in combos, AHVBx3 is no less legitimate than any other combo. It just happens to do a sh*tload of damage. That's the real reason why you see people saying "AHVBx3 is a glitch!!" yet they don't make any mention of Hyper Sentinel Force x3. AHVBx3 kills you, HSFx3 doesn't, so HSFx3 is OK but AHVBx3 is broken.

In contrast, stored specials/supers are just a programming glitch, straight up. There is no logical reason why you can store those supers but not other supers with the same input command. Why can't Balrog store his super? How about Blanka or DeeJay?

This is not a commentary on whether or not stored moves break the game (I don't think they do), but to compare them to a perfectly legitimate and logical combo is totally baseless.

[Decoy]

Hrm, must chime in on this blanka honda debate. I say yes honda does have the upper hand but blankas best asset against honda is his jump straight up rh, For some reason the priority when he's jumping straight up as opposed to towards the opponent is 10 fold. Getting about a character length away from honda and randomly jumping straight up with the rh will usually bait a Head butt and hit it clean or if he decided to do that flashkick belly move (sorry not into legit names) it hits that as well. if it were to whiff alot of the time blanka can move after landing and reach with a crouch fierce or crouch rh while hondas recovering from the headbutt and then get in range again. honda has to stand up cuz a late rh on way down is a nasty overhead that u don't see coming cuz looks to far away. Add in not doing anything and landing with a crouching rh can really play havoc. Stannd short is also a monster anti headbutt poke. When in doubt. Stick it out. If honda didn't headbutt there isn't a move gonna hit blanka on reaction from it.Now of course this is ST ya'll talkin bout so yea thats about it for blankas chances against honda. AE of course is a different monster. Something I find odd though. All blankas Electricties hit honda clean out of headbutts 100% Except for SF2 Honda torpedos which clean every Electricity of every version. Personally i'd rather fight honda with Blanka more then Thawk. Fuu that match.

^ What he said.

J. RH up close is Blanka's best friend. People also forget to do the J. bitch slap to the face. I do that EVERY chance I get. ;-)

Oh, and can't forget roll into bite. Learn the spacing and that will keep a Honda player on edge.

~Decoy

[Drunken Master]

*snip*


:wow: :wow: :wow:

:tup: :clap: :tup:

:pleased:

[ToXY]

Hey nki nice thread, i would like some info on the Balrog(US) vs Bison(US) matchup, when bison keeps repeating the s.mk, s.hk, then dive punch xx s.hk etc.. really owns me, any tips anybody :)?

[CaliPower]

one day of ryu practice beats all chars down............

[evilj]

hyper fighting chun li was tight. can hang fireball fights with ken, air sbk to get over fireballs, invisible neckbreaker crossup/non crossup kick, free jump ins after throw against ryu (you dp, i block). sweep beats any of guiles jumps.

[el_diablo]

Side note: Honda's super gets my vote for worse super in the game, because it:
-gets beat by st.Jab on reaction
-is punishable by every character if blocked
-is randomly punishable even if it hits

ok, that's what i thought. I already got FAB'ed after landing the first hit, so i was kinda doubtful about that super's usefulness.

anyone got a precise way to land ryu's c.lk x2, shinkuu? it actually works, but it seems kinda random...

[Hol Horse]

Though Blanka's super isn't far behind...


-Nicholai!

yeah but at least it gets full hits when used (properly) as AA.

[Shirts]

one day of ryu practice beats all chars down............

I agree. (Old man bias.)

Oh, man. So much New School blood.

[Duck Strong]

I'm old, I just never played you guys.

[A-Dhalsim]

So much mis guided info going on here. O'sim Differences are in his drills, they have higher priority. Especially the headbutt drill. The throw range differecne is questionable, but I believe the priority leans towards Old Sim.

Have to disagree with NKI on the outcome being the same if this were to be on arcade. Gian came within inches to losing to Nuki (Nuki should of won in my opinion). The pixels he won on me could of gone either way. Sim vs Sim is a complete toss up and both of us were playing the match wrong and way to agreessive. Hehe to bad Sirlin didn't come across Gian in the tournament, he would of smoked him like he did during 3v3 =)

Hopefully Watson gets his tourney scene going and we can all go back to playing arcade versions, then we can really see what you new kids are made of.

J-Cole

[DarksydePhil]

So much mis guided info going on here. O'sim Differences are in his drills, they have higher priority. Especially the headbutt drill. The throw range differecne is questionable, but I believe the priority leans towards Old Sim.

Have to disagree with NKI on the outcome being the same if this were to be on arcade. Gian came within inches to losing to Nuki (Nuki should of won in my opinion). The pixels he won on me could of gone either way. Sim vs Sim is a complete toss up and both of us were playing the match wrong and way to agreessive. Hehe to bad Sirlin didn't come across Gian in the tournament, he would of smoked him like he did during 3v3 =)

Hopefully Watson gets his tourney scene going and we can all go back to playing arcade versions, then we can really see what you new kids are made of.

J-Cole



YEEES, if all the OGs get ST going again, and actually get practice, I'm sure it will be fair the next time we meet in tournament....

...yeah right.

One thing you guys always say is you don't play as much anymore and there's no comp. Well if there's no comp for you, think about how little comp there is for new school! There must be a total of like 8 competitive ST players on the East Coast, and that's stretching it. Now that Phi is no longer running tournaments, there will be ZERO chance to get any practice before the next major. For example, just look at the turnout at the CTF tournament this weekend... a whopping 4 people showed up and it ended up being round robin. Glad I didn't go!

I wish you guys all the best in getting that tourney scene together, but if it happens then I'm gonna have to fly over there a few days to get some comp in...

[NKI]

anyone got a precise way to land ryu's c.lk x2, shinkuu? it actually works, but it seems kinda random...The technique is the same as Ken, but the timing is a lot harder because Ken's super is a lot faster than the Shinkuu. (Ryu's takes longer to come out and start hitting.) You just have to practice and learn the difficult timing.

Hopefully Watson gets his tourney scene going and we can all go back to playing arcade versions, then we can really see what you new kids are made of.What is this tourney scene you speak of? I'm getting excited...


-Nicholai!

[WraithCo]

I'm guessing most people don't want to use a translation guide to read the frame data. So I'm considering a more effective "solution" of sorts.
I'll be waiting for a response from Buktooth. Drunken probably has an idea of what I'm doing.

[stream3]

NKI do you have the Insanity DVD series? How is it.

Just viewed the latest batch of X-mania vids. Ume-chin's ryu is more impressive than Daigo, IMO. Noguchi wrecked shop,and the dhalsim on otochun's team is pretty killer too.

best list--

chun: oto chun
ken: ani ken
dictator: yuu
guile: kurahashi/
rog: tama? tsuji?
ryu: shooting D, umechin
dhally: kky, GIAN, a bunch of others
claw: more vega
fei: noguchi
deejay: no idea
cammy: the only dude that plays cammy
t-hawk: spikey haired dude in SBO
zangief: pony

[CigarBoB]

I beleav the Sim in the finals was Gian. The same person that won ST this year at EVO.

[A-Dhalsim]

DSP: Well first off, I for one have never stoped playing or ever complained about not having comp. I search for my comp and occasionally gather the old skool to play. Thats just me though, cause I am also the only OG player that really travels to outside tourneys. Missed last ecc (unfortunately) but did make it to Ts5 which was off the hook...ALSO which I won in ST (you were there too dsp =P). Although I hear ECC might be coming back into the mix....ill keep it on the downlow tho muahah!

NKI: It something Watson is in the works of startting up, when things get more in motion he will definately be letting people know. Unfortunately its aimed for next year. So until then A-CHO CUP!!!! That shit will be OFF THE HOOK!!

J-Cole

[AkumaTX]

where can i order a ST cab?

[TS]

Throw range isn't much more important than walking speed, I've figured out...like in the SFA games, Chun li has shorter throw range than shotos, but gets to throw more, because of how her walk/walking speed is (quite possibly the same way in the SF2 games). So, maybe O.Sim walks a tiny bit faster, or the hit detection for his throw is in a slightly different place?

[Eishi]

The Dhalsim in the X mania 4 finals is named Shin Dhalsim.
The sipkey hair Hawk player of SBO is named Toutanki.
It's not otoken, it's Aniken (contraction of Aniki = big brother and Ken).
And it's not Umechan, it's Umechin.

These players are very strong too :

Tsunoppi (guile)
Mattsun (crazy ken player who likes to use all kinds of tricks)
Holy Scarlet Bal (very cheap claw player)

[NKI]

I haven't seen The Insanity Series yet, but I really want to!

FYI: Gian used to go by "Ken-O". Probably more peeps know him by that name.

Cole - sounds dope. Hope it gets some foos playing ST regularly.

TS - I've tested other old characters, and they all have the same walking speed. I'll test Sim next time I get a chance.


-Nicholai!

[Eishi]

On the insanity DVD page, they describe KEN-O as the best dhalsim player of Japan :wow:

[AkumaTX]

where can one order a board from

[void216]

can i have strats for boxer vs sagat and claw

[NKI]

AkumaTX - your best bet would be eBay or newsgroups. Most online PCB dealers charge way too much. Just get if from a collector who's clearing out old stuff, and you can pick up ST for much cheaper.

can i have strats for boxer vs sagat and clawIf you are looking for "general strats", I can not stress enough that it is infinitely better (and more efficient!) to simply watch match vids of top players. There is now a wealth of footage available online, featuring the world's best players. Go to combovideos.com (http://www.combovideos.com), or hit up the GFB hub, or my fserv in #gamecombos. I will not be replying to any posts asking for general strats.
-Nicholai!

[stream3]

we still need the first set of vids from the MSC (master secret cup) series!

That stuff is years old but still good.

[omni]

I'm like 99% positive about this:

old/new characters walk