SFA3 Top Tiers: Online vs Offline

[Ryu1999]

Disclaimer: The offline ranks are based on a recent AIM conversation with BAS, with a few of my own opinions on chars he didn't mention. Those chars are denoted with an asterik (*)

Offline:
Rank
S: V-Akuma/V-Sakura
A: V-Karin/V-Sagat/V-Sodom/*A-Dhalshim/*V-Zangief
*"B+": V-Ryu/V-Charlie/V-Vega
*B: A-Guy/V-Rolento/V-Chun Li/A-Gen
*C: Everyone else except
*D: Birdie/Juni (brunette, can't remember if its juli or juni)

Online:

Rank
S: A-Dhalshim/AV-Zangief/ A-Chun
A: A-Ken/A-Gen/A-Blanka/A-Bison
C: Everyone else

Ok its easier for me to explain online since...well the tactics are easier and simpler, and I'm sure most of the people that read this forum mostly have to deal with online situations anyways

S Ranks

Dhalshim: Ok its bad enough that he can zone most anyone out at will and his normals are absurdly good, but with lag, you'll end up jumping into his st. mks/hks even if the Sim player is randomly mashing. Also, jumping up attacks are really good online since going from one blocking stance to another blocking stance takes extra time, you'll get hit by an "unblockable" jump attack! Plus Dhalshim can just mash cr. lk against a lot of characters with no chance for retaliation.

Things to counter him: Dhalshim is the only one of the S ranks who actually is hurt by lag. His b+mp and st. wp attacks are awesome anti-airs that unfortunately are hard to pull off with delay. Also, Gief, (once he gets in) has a lot easier time than offline since its hard to mash the st. wp to counter the Gief jump fierce (and variations) assault in time.

Zangief: Gief is a bitch character online. Any scrub can pick him up and win with two buttons: the hp button, and the 3p button (or if you're on stick, actually pressing all 3 buttons). I should know since I play him :clap: J. hp/SPD mindgames are already bad enough, but when anti-airs are universally raped, it makes Gief's game all that much better. To make it worse, Gief has a reliable practically lag-proof anti-air that beats everything except Chun/Bison stomp and Chun j. lk without worrying about timing...so mash that lariat!!!

Counters:
Dhalshim: even though his close game is raped by lag, he is still a viable anti-gief option with his far cr. mp/hp attacks beating out anything Gief does, as Gief's cr. hp beats out of any of dhalshim's other far normals.
Chun: stomp all day and do the followup crossup j. lk into whatever and you're good to go, totally safe, idiot-proof plan. Add that to meaty st. hp->cr. rh stupidity and you have a viable online-only Gief counter. Oh yeah, and doing lightning legs randomly is good since the angle to attack her is bad for Gief.

A-Rank

A-Ken Ok, EVERYONE is wondering why I put A-Ken as top dog shoto online or even on the top list at all. Let me just say this is a personal grudge. Hadou Ken, who is a decent player in his own right, simply owned me 20 in a row with this character. Anybody who's played me is prolly thinking, "Wow he must have dp'd every jumpin and had mad footsie skills or some broken VC!!!" No, he knew how to play the system for what it was. A-Ken has the best tool for online play: A uber jumpin. Ken's air-Hk is for whatever reason, better than Akuma's, and obviously better than Ryu's. It travels faster and it seemingly lands faster than Akumas. Using it as a fast side switch is too good online where button/animation lag messes up blocking schemes. Offline its simpler to deal with it (Dhalshim b+mp owns air hks) but online its a bitch since the move, moves very fast and one's own retaliation is not guaranteed. Alternatively, Ken can jab dp with impunity so if you are even a little bit late in trying to counter above scrubby air hk abuse, he will pop you. THis is not the same as trying in vain to react to a jump in with a dp before someone tries to bring that up, because doing preemptive dps is easy. With lag, A-ken becomes like a watered down version of ST's O. Ken. Very slow fbs that can mess with jump moves, and a relatively unpunishable jab dp. If you've ever played DGV in ST, you knwo what it feels like, not fun at all but crazy effective

A-Gen
Gen is not that hard to play online. In fact he can be played a lot like Ken. Abuse the wall jump kick just like A-Ken would use air-hk because it will take advantage of lagged block input. Not to take anythign away from Johnny-Lemonhead (where is that kid anyway), but its not that hard to block that move, but I got hit by that move at least 5 times simply because the game hadn't noticed that I had switched block directions. AND just like A-Ken, Gen's dp move, waterfall kick, is hard to punish. Offline its already pretty safe, but online, just forget about it. Plus Gen can mash the first 3 hits for chip and still be safe.

*GEN BONUS!!!!* Doing repeated jump up KKK style HPs on a downed Gief in the corner is almost inevitable guard break. It beats lariat clean! Plus it does fat guard damage. Mix in with random waterfall kicks and non V-Gief is done in the corner. hip hop horray!


A-Blanka
A3 Blanka is not CVS2 Blanka. He is not good...at all..offline. Cr. Fierce and all its variations suck, he doesn't have Electric ball super, no RC electricity. Online, he is a GOD. He has the requisite awesome retard jumpins plus a fast jump. Blanka balls are a 2 frame (!) move. This is the fastest special move in the game and its only matched by Chun Li'/Sakura's jabs. So with lag messing up movement, even the best player is going to get by at least one blanka ball during the vulnerable jump frames or just from the lag input. I've personally never had that much problem with Blanka players, but I've had plenty of people complain about how good he is in comparison to his "real" offline incarnation.


A-Bison
Bison is one of my favorite chars in A3, no lie. If A-Bison had X-Bison's stomp followup I'd play him as one of my mains no lie. Bison is much like Blanka in that he has a funky fast jump and good priority on his jumpins (j. lk/mp/hp and jump up mk). Unlike Blanka he has awesome supers and good ground normals.

Bison's game is simple: throw a slow fb and if the opponent jumps, meet them with a j. lk or jump up mk. If they stay grounded (and are far away) do a stomp. If close, walk forward and st. mk. Cancelling block strings into stomp is way too good since this move takes advantage of "lag block error". You have to commit to the high block so early that I can just mash cr. mk->super just to fuck with you becuase you SOOOOO want to stop getting hit by the stomp, the annoyance factor is very high, that you block high early to compensate. Also, Bison, if he really wants to be gay about it, can just teleport away indefinitely due to the slower reaction times most characters have to deal with. He can also mix in jump back mps which is 2nd only to Dhalshim in "runaway jump move" range. I remember Smooth Operator back in the day used to do this and I got pissed just trying to chase him down, whereby I then immediatley co-opted this tactic for my own :)

[Emil]

Wow, you talk to BAS? Any idea if he plays on kaillera, or is willing to try it, even if it might be rediculous for him?

Edit: Actually, if he does play, it will probably be irrelevant anyways, since I assume he lives in Korea at the moment.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

online chun is 90% cheese she should be separate from the "Everyone else" part

[Ryu1999]

Wow, you talk to BAS? Any idea if he plays on kaillera, or is willing to try it, even if it might be rediculous for him?

Edit: Actually, if he does play, it will probably be irrelevant anyways, since I assume he lives in Korea at the moment.

A) He lives in Japan, honest mistake I'm sure :)
B) I have a friend who is one of the SRK go-to guys who is friends with Bas. I asked my questions through him
C) He doesn't really play A3 competitively anymore, and why bother with Kal if he has real arcades right near him?

[DaDesiCanadian]

I play Chun online and Offline, I had no idea she was considered "cheesy". Shotos seem to have no problems with her, it's an uphill battle for me everytime, and Gief just rapes her for free.

[Ryu1999]

I play Chun online and Offline, I had no idea she was considered "cheesy". Shotos seem to have no problems with her, it's an uphill battle for me everytime, and Gief just rapes her for free.

Online Chun is retarded. Its bad enough that she's braindead to play, but with jump ins being enhanced by lag, she already had the best jump in the game without lag. Gief does not rape Chun for free if you used the tactics I mentioned. I don't remember who it was but that kid kept my Gief in lockdown with the aforementioned stomp->crossup stupidity.

I can rape people for free with my 2 min Chun, so I don't know how you can't do the same since you play Chun a lot better than I do

[D'Nyc3]

Where the fuck is V-Cody!!!


Fuck you guys.

[Plutoburn]

I agree with pretty much the whole list, except in the online list, it is implied Ken is the best shoto for online play. What's the difference?

[chunkis]

V-akuma is top online and offline, A-ken lol over V-akuma your having a laugh.

what is this based on....


Dhalsim is still high but not higher than akuma, he can`t lock people down with pin point accuracy like at the arcade, dhalsim online is like playing the playstation version of sim, slow and his timing is off, But in the hands of an expert player you can do as much damage as offline.

Chun li is a teef, but not as teef as v-akuma.

V-cody and V-karin over A-Chun any day, Although v-chun is a different story.



The Rank is the same online and offline, with a few characters becoming a little more irritating, because of lag, nothing v-akuma can`t handle.

Btw, Bas isn`t and doesn`t live in korea,and he still plays alpha 3 competitively.

[Ryu1999]

V-akuma is top online and offline, A-ken lol over V-akuma your having a laugh.

what is this based on....

Chun li is a teef, but not as teef as v-akuma.

V-cody and V-karin over A-Chun any day, Although v-chun is a different story.

The Rank is the same online and offline, with a few characters becoming a little more irritating, because of lag, nothing v-akuma can`t handle.

Btw, Bas isn`t and doesn`t live in korea,and he still plays alpha 3 competitively.

If you can do OTG online with V-Akuma, then yes he's obviously above everyone else, but with the lag I have to deal with, I can barely

a) Divekick (which is indeed abusable with lag if you can get it out)
b) do basic VCs or
c) OTG

Maybe you europeans have better connections, but when I play on GW with standard .64 none of the chars you mention as "better" than the ones i listed are playable. A-Ken can get away with some air hk retardation that takes advantage of the aforementioned delay in a character changing blocking stance/direction

About BAS playing a3 competitively, he direclty said that he doesn't play it that much anymore. I'm sure he could whoop any non-jap player's ass though lol

[Captain Ryu]

I tried to do v akuma's custom online and couldnt :( I can see that his rushdown game could be harder to deal with with lag though. Shit I couldnt even time a jumping rh online lol... Shit would come out when I hit the ground.

I would have had fun with a3 online if it was actually playable... I dont see how you guys deal with it.

[Kyokuji]

Only play on servers where your ping is less than 80, and make sure your opponent's connection isn't terrible either.

Lag does mess you up, but it shouldn't be that bad. A tenth of a second at most (Even though that's usually enough to mess up a VC).

GodWeapon server is your best bet if you're in North America.

[Ryu1999]

Only play on servers where your ping is less than 80, and make sure your opponent's connection isn't terrible either.

Lag does mess you up, but it shouldn't be that bad. A tenth of a second at most (Even though that's usually enough to mess up a VC).

GodWeapon server is your best bet if you're in North America.

I don't want to toot my own horn (but it will still sound like it regardless) but I was one of the best A3 players on Kalliera before I stopped playing recently. So I know what I'm talking about when I say that normal lag even with people under 80 ping is hugely detrimental. A3 under the normal conditions in North American servers like GW, since I have no idea what Euro servers are like, are unlike offline A3 in any way. Reversals and playing defense are unfairly hard so that adds up to one thing: jump attacks become way too good.

Characters that have already good jumpins like Gief/Chun Li can get away with rushdown straight out of KOF's books, which doesn't happen offline. It also explains why Zangief is the ultimate character online because he has the stupidly easy dominator offnese (repeated splash and j. fierce along with empty jump spd) and fail-safe defense (mash ppp/kkk and you got the lariat, no timing dependent dp motion needed).

I've played you in ST and I have no idea if you play A3 online, but the lag is much more prevalent in newer games with more animation like A3 compared to older SF games.

[Kyokuji]

I was talking to Captain Ryu. It sounds like he's getting some nasty input delay well beyond the usual lag.

I know how much the lag messes up high end play, lol; like when I do the motion for a DP and nothing comes out, or when I'm having trouble defending against Chun's cross ups.
Don't even get me started on negative edging stuff.

[jae hoon]

V-akuma is top online and offline, A-ken lol over V-akuma your having a laugh.

what is this based on....


Dhalsim is still high but not higher than akuma, he can`t lock people down with pin point accuracy like at the arcade, dhalsim online is like playing the playstation version of sim, slow and his timing is off, But in the hands of an expert player you can do as much damage as offline.

Chun li is a teef, but not as teef as v-akuma.

V-cody and V-karin over A-Chun any day, Although v-chun is a different story.



The Rank is the same online and offline, with a few characters becoming a little more irritating, because of lag, nothing v-akuma can`t handle.

Btw, Bas isn`t and doesn`t live in korea,and he still plays alpha 3 competitively.

No Rankings in any game are not the same online or offline. Lag does make a difference, a HUGE difference for some characters.

[ryuu]

what the hell kind of connections are you guys playing with? lag is always a bad thing, but ever since cable it's NEVER been to the point of severe hindering. hell even my 56k lag wasn't ALWAYS hindering, and lag there could get so bad I'd lose matches just to something simple like repeated optic blasts

[Magnifico]

what the hell kind of connections are you guys playing with? lag is always a bad thing, but ever since cable it's NEVER been to the point of severe hindering. hell even my 56k lag wasn't ALWAYS hindering, and lag there could get so bad I'd lose matches just to something simple like repeated optic blasts

if you use strats that work well online its not going to hinder you much. hell it will probably help (like if you play jumporama like ryus talkin about!)

If you try to play offline style online, you WILL be hindered! But if you learn the game in a laggy environment from the start, you probably wont feel hindered because you get used to the online style of play right off the bat, and dont have to change your habits or adjust.

so its a different game than offline... some stuff becomes much more powerful, some stuff becomes much weaker. Which is what the threads about!

[Ryu1999]

Updated first post with Ken/Blanka/Gen explanation

[Plutoburn]

Hadouken gets owned by zoned sim. Jump back mp or air yoga flame owns his scrubby air hurricane.

[Eishi]

The funny thing is that chunli is cheesy in almost every game she appears in :

SFA2
SFA3
ST
SF 3.3
...

Fuck this character.

[Strike]

How does Chun Stomp beat Gief? Everytime she jumps, she is risking jumping into Gief jumping HP, jump back splash, or jumping into an outstretched cr.HP. What is the distance the Stomp works, because it has been eaten up alive by cr. KKK Lairat everytime I've tried. Also, Chun's cross up is eaten up alive by Lairat too. If Chun crosses up early, the her cross up LK will hit, but all her follow ups will be eaten by Lairat when she lands because Lairat comes out quicker than any of her normals. If she's crossing up late, Lairat still beats her while she's still falling. There's no timing in anti-airing her with Lairat.

Meaty HP --> cr.HK doesn't work too well on Zangeif because he has 2 viable counters:
1. wake up SPD
2. Lairat

Maybe option 1 might be effected by lag, but I've seen you do it many times clean. Lairat doesn't even have to be timed beat out meaty HP. Lairat even eats cr.HK from a distance and up close, cr.HK goes through it.

Chun can't stop body splash online. standing HP will beat it only at a specific distance, the one where Gief can easily mix it up with jump regular HP or empty jump SPD. One bad guess, and she dies. One right guess, and at best, you just took away 7-8% of Gief's life, and he's still barrelling on top of her. And if Gief ever gets to cross her up with splash, it's all over for her. She can't even walk under fast enough because crossup splash hitbox is so large. I think Gief already kills her badly offline; online, it's pretty much a free win for him.

What is stomp --> cross up? The only person I've seen able to do it was someone named "AAAAAAAAA" (later changed his name to Osoto Gari). But it seemed he could only do it with X-Chun, not A-Chun. His X-Chun would stomp, then instead of bouncing away after ths stomp hits/blocked; he continued to decend and do jumping LK cross up. If this is what you mean kills Gief, how it is done? Everytime I've tried online or off; Chun bounces away too far, whether I stomp on the ascending part of her jump, or the descending part of her jump.

[Magnifico]

Updated first post with Ken/Blanka/Gen explanation

SHit yeah, nice rankings. I haven't really played this game online OR offline much to be honest, but from what ive played online you have such ltitle time to react to Gen/chun crossups and fast jumps like blankas online its crazy. when your char has sensitive anti air techniques, they basically get to do whatever they want :tdown:

[Ryu1999]

How does Chun Stomp beat Gief? Everytime she jumps, she is risking jumping into Gief jumping HP, jump back splash, or jumping into an outstretched cr.HP. What is the distance the Stomp works, because it has been eaten up alive by cr. KKK Lairat everytime I've tried. Also, Chun's cross up is eaten up alive by Lairat too. If Chun crosses up early, the her cross up LK will hit, but all her follow ups will be eaten by Lairat when she lands because Lairat comes out quicker than any of her normals. If she's crossing up late, Lairat still beats her while she's still falling. There's no timing in anti-airing her with Lairat.

Meaty HP --> cr.HK doesn't work too well on Zangeif because he has 2 viable counters:
1. wake up SPD
2. Lairat

Maybe option 1 might be effected by lag, but I've seen you do it many times clean. Lairat doesn't even have to be timed beat out meaty HP. Lairat even eats cr.HK from a distance and up close, cr.HK goes through it.

Chun can't stop body splash online. standing HP will beat it only at a specific distance, the one where Gief can easily mix it up with jump regular HP or empty jump SPD. One bad guess, and she dies. One right guess, and at best, you just took away 7-8% of Gief's life, and he's still barrelling on top of her. And if Gief ever gets to cross her up with splash, it's all over for her. She can't even walk under fast enough because crossup splash hitbox is so large. I think Gief already kills her badly offline; online, it's pretty much a free win for him.

What is stomp --> cross up? The only person I've seen able to do it was someone named "AAAAAAAAA" (later changed his name to Osoto Gari). But it seemed he could only do it with X-Chun, not A-Chun. His X-Chun would stomp, then instead of bouncing away after ths stomp hits/blocked; he continued to decend and do jumping LK cross up. If this is what you mean kills Gief, how it is done? Everytime I've tried online or off; Chun bounces away too far, whether I stomp on the ascending part of her jump, or the descending part of her jump.

Yeah, O Soto is who im referring to. That is EXACTLY what im takling about, and like you, i can't reproduce it even though that attack series is in like every SF game even in ST and 3s. The thing about Chun Li is that she's a short character. If some scrub is mashing lariat after getting hit by any jumpins (something I have a bad habit of doing) you can just wait and sweep him.

Chun has no worries at all about doing meaty shit on Gief. Especially with lag. Gief does have to commit to the lariat early just like every other lagged anti-air so he can't reversal a meaty hp (done early enough) on reaction, but you can always bait by standing over him and then jumping away at the last second.

Chun's eternal anti-air (cr. rh) stops j. fierce and splash at anything less than max range. Even better you can use jump up rh just like in ST to stop the repeated cross upsplash whoring, though I doubt thats an easy alternative. I've never been able to maintain repeated splash crossup on any good chuns as i end up getting air thrown or j. back wk/shorted.

Gief still wins the match, i'm not disputing that, but online Chun has a few good tricks that help the match on Kal settings

[ParryAll]

How is the lag on Kailera vs. Xbox live lag??

[Strike]

Ah, I just realized why I couldn't do it with just a few minutes of testing. That stomp --> cross up is only possible with X-Chun; hence the reason O Soto Gari only plays X-Chun rather than A-Chun. The stomp has a MUCH bigger hitbox in X-ISM than in A.

To comfirm, I tested X-Chun vs. A-Gief; and A-Chun vs. A-Gief. I made both Chuns stand at point blank range next to Zangief, then jump straight up and come down with stomp. A-Chun's stomp whiffs completely while X-Chun's stomp will hit. Furthermore, X-Chun's stomp bounces her much lower than A-Chun, setting up for the crossup, while A-Chun's stomp will always bounce her too high for the cross up to land. So since that stomp-->crossup is X-Chun only, that means only X-Chun does slightly better than A-Chun vs. Gief; and then, specifically only A-Gief. V-Gief still has VCs, which X-anything will die to.

Chun's cross up LK, standing HP is for some reason, much harder to time on Gief. I just tested it out and it was very inconsistent for me to land a simple 2-hit crossup LK, standing HP on him (this is offline, so online would be worse) unless I turned on autofire HP. I suppose this is why all online Giefs get free Lairats on me even when my crossup hits, because I can't time the HP.

cr.HK as anti-air trades with splash, way in Gief's favor, and I believe only beats it clean just inside max range splash (max range splash will not make contact with it because it is at Gief's "magic splash distance"; anything closer and and splash will cross up and cr.HK cannot anti-cross up). cr.HK will beat Gief jumping HP at max range, but at that range, Gief is jumping in with splash anyway. The only reason to use Gief jumping HP at its max range (the range it will lose to Chun cr.HK), is because Chun's standing HP beats splash clean at that range, and Gief mixes in jumping max range HP to beat Chun standing HP. Still though, even if Chun guesses right, she is doing far too little damage vs. when Gief guesses right. The risk/reward trade is always in Gief's favor. And as you said, with anti-airs universally raped, even when you think you're properly distanced, Chun's antiairs sometimes fail. Which is why offline options like standing LP counter-hit anti-air into cc. jumping strong --> cr.HK; or walk under anti-crossup st.MP vs. Gief splash are not viable tactics vs. online Gief... the high probability of it missing is not worth the risk.

The wakeup game when Gief is getting up is still very bad. Take that Godweapon server's A3 finals (the biggest example of online lag abused to its fullest), first match: Cammy vs. Gief. In the 3rd round, your Gief was practically guard broken and knocked down. All my Cammy had to do was do a Level 3 Reverse Shaft Breaker on your getup to guard break and win. But what happens; she gets SPDed instead. And then when we went on the Chun vs. Gief sets, there are countless times that Chun simply got SPDed seemingly free when Gief is getting up. It's because the timing for jump back in order to bait the VC/SPD is seemingly random; and even then, early commited Lairat would've beaten 2 Chun options:

1. meaty HP
2. jump back bait

I guess I'd put Chun in A rank rather than S. Gief, who already does well against her offline, makes it an even harder match for her online. Ken (and all shotos), gives her a hard time offline, and that air-hurricane crap kills her online. Even Quinton McCleod jump back short Sakura kills Chun. But she does pretty much kill everyone else, and has a good matchup vs. online Sim (if she just avoids his airthrow).

[silent shade]

How is the lag on Kailera vs. Xbox live lag??

depends on the ping you get with the person your fighting. i never really have terrible connections just not always great ones

[Ryu1999]

snip

Ah, so you're lust. The problem is that with our mathces...the lag was even more intense than usual. The formula goes, the laggier the game, the better gief is. Under just normal EC vs EC A3 matches on GW, the stuff I mentioned actually works. Its strange but Chun v Gief works best in medium lag, but not in extreme or no lag haha

Good find with the X-Chun stuff. I'd definitely say A-Chun is the weakest of the S tiers but she is so much above the rest of the A-tiers I'd be hard pressed to put her there.

[ryuu]

if you use strats that work well online its not going to hinder you much. hell it will probably help (like if you play jumporama like ryus talkin about!)

If you try to play offline style online, you WILL be hindered! But if you learn the game in a laggy environment from the start, you probably wont feel hindered because you get used to the online style of play right off the bat, and dont have to change your habits or adjust.

so its a different game than offline... some stuff becomes much more powerful, some stuff becomes much weaker. Which is what the threads about!
these guys sound like they're talking about HORRIBLE lag, not lag in general. there's lag like.. no matter what online, not much you can do to get around it. shit like "jumporama" is easy to react to if the game isn't lagged by a ridiculous amount of time. also not only that, having a feel for shit like that helps. I haven't gotten lag that bad since 56k though, and even then i could beat out that shit on my best day.

stop playing on servers located in China

[ParryAll]

depends on the ping you get with the person your fighting. i never really have terrible connections just not always great ones

So better or worse than Xbox?

[Ryu1999]

these guys sound like they're talking about HORRIBLE lag, not lag in general. there's lag like.. no matter what online, not much you can do to get around it. shit like "jumporama" is easy to react to if the game isn't lagged by a ridiculous amount of time. also not only that, having a feel for shit like that helps. I haven't gotten lag that bad since 56k though, and even then i could beat out that shit on my best day.

stop playing on servers located in China

No we're talking about normal everyday mame 0.64 kal lag on north american servers. If you can correclty react to the majority of jumpins in the same manner that you do offline then that's as ridiculousg as me saying I can dp Akuma divekicks on reaction offline (even the Japs can do that), or your reactions offline just aren't that good

[ryuu]

No we're talking about normal everyday mame 0.64 kal lag on north american servers. If you can correclty react to the majority of jumpins in the same manner that you do offline then that's as ridiculousg as me saying I can dp Akuma divekicks on reaction offline (even the Japs can do that), or your reactions offline just aren't that good
"normal everyday mame lag"? i guess i've never had this lag before. lag only screws me when it's bad, not normal. any jumpins that hit me hit me because i totally wasn't expecting it, not because i was too laggy to react. even if i were too laggy to react the first try, i never miss 2nd and 3rd and usually avoid the followups, like being thrown or sweeped, especially in sfa3. i'm not saying there isn't a difference, i'm just totally not believing you when you speak that way about silly shit such as jumpins because my experience hasn't been such.

[Magnifico]

You have less time to react to stuff online, period. Whether you say the lag is "not that bad" or not, that fact is true. I'm sure you wont disagree with that so,...:

add that together with moves that you have VERY, VERY little time to reaact to OFFLINE... add in the time to actually confirm the button presses for the counter, and then add in the lag... and things that you have a split second to react to offline become VERY VERY hard or impossible to counter online throguh reaction.

I mean you can still play the guessing game and guess what theyre going to do next, provided you have the lag timing down, but thats not REACTING. It's different online cause you gotta guess a lot more, and react a lot less.

Thios doesnt mean its absolutely impossible, but it means it greatly weakens ability to react. Which will obviously change how good certain things are. Which, once again, is all the thread is about! He didn't say its absolutely impossible to stop a jumpin or anything.

[ryuu]

You have less time to react to stuff online, period. Whether you say the lag is "not that bad" or not, that fact is true. I'm sure you wont disagree with that so,...:

add that together with moves that you have VERY, VERY little time to reaact to OFFLINE... add in the time to actually confirm the button presses for the counter, and then add in the lag... and things that you have a split second to react to offline become VERY VERY hard or impossible to counter online throguh reaction.

I mean you can still play the guessing game and guess what theyre going to do next, provided you have the lag timing down, but thats not REACTING. It's different online cause you gotta guess a lot more, and react a lot less.

Thios doesnt mean its absolutely impossible, but it means it greatly weakens ability to react. Which will obviously change how good certain things are. Which, once again, is all the thread is about! He didn't say its absolutely impossible to stop a jumpin or anything.
i even said it myself, lag is gonna be just about anywhere online (cept maybe controlsim. heard that shit's gonna be like playing the person right next to you). and yeah, i understand that anything can happen within a second and splitting reaction time by any means fucks up reactions. i just don't agree with the jumporama shit. you might not be able to react to an Akuma diving kick online, but that doesn't mean you can't react to a jumpin. if you can't, it's usually more of a you problem than a lag problem (unless your ping's like over 200 or some shit)

[DaDesiCanadian]

No, even on a 20-30 ping reacting to jumpins is hard. Kaillera is jump-o-rama.

[silent shade]

So better or worse than Xbox?

at times its worse if you play against someone with alow ping then its better. :tup: its hella more fun than live at times tho

[Ryu1999]

i even said it myself, lag is gonna be just about anywhere online (cept maybe controlsim. heard that shit's gonna be like playing the person right next to you). and yeah, i understand that anything can happen within a second and splitting reaction time by any means fucks up reactions. i just don't agree with the jumporama shit. you might not be able to react to an Akuma diving kick online, but that doesn't mean you can't react to a jumpin. if you can't, it's usually more of a you problem than a lag problem (unless your ping's like over 200 or some shit)

As I've said before, I have beatten most people online, but I have to resort to the retard tactics that I listed in my first post, and you know what? It works because other people can't react either. I am just as guilty as say Hadou Ken for abusing lag tactics, and its exactly why I posted why certain chars are SOOOO much better online.

Example: On .64, I own Orangemegaslide's Guy with my V-Gief. Brainless repeat splashes and j. fierce is enough to win. Unlike me, Slide does not sell out online to a lag-friendly character. However, on .61, if I try the same bs, Slide will counter all my jumpins with cr. strong (which is hard to time in any kind of lag). I have to think SOOOO much more just to beat him since I can't just jump at will with one stupid tactic.

Another example, on the other side I rarely played V-ryu towards the end of my Kalliera career when I was still on .64. Slide's Guy used to go pretty even or win a little more than my Ryu did agianst him. Once we switched over to .61, (and lag was less of a factor), he couldn't jump for free anymore because it is a LOT easier to react to jumps, and he got hit by hella sweeps (in the initial adjustment period) because he had no idea, from even our extensive play together on .64, that I had a decent ground game, so in the beginning I was rocking him for free before he, ironically, got adjusted to non-lag and it became pretty much even before, but with a lot more thinking put into the play

[NoAffinity]

I see mostly mention here of "if it's executed, it is more effective online than offline", without taking into account that the lag that affects reaction to said tactics also affects execution of said tactics. Blanka and Ken have always been my mains, and those are the ones I primarily play online (never realized I fall solely in the "cheesy" category, until reading this thread :confused: ). Executing Ken's air HK is much more difficult online, and in fact, it has to be comboed off of a jump (i.e. up/towards->towards->down/towards->down->down/back->back + kick), and leaving the ground has to be timed extremely well in order to be a pressure move. Knowing that these tactics will be used by other Ken players, it also makes it easier to counter, as the arc of this usually takes Ken near off the top of the screen (thus leaving plenty of time to counter with a dp or get out of the way altogether). The same holds true w/ Blanka's jump-ins. Sure they're quick, but you have to press your attack as soon as you leave the ground in order to not have it result in an empty jump->standing attack. Again, this increases vulnerability (primarily to anti-air supers).

Also worthy of note: being a Blanka player, I know what to expect when facing him, and the ball is a guarantee. Any shallow/short-duration (such as jab dp) anti air attacks are effective against the ball, when it's being unleashed from a distance (i.e. good probability of counter, with little risk of vulnerability).

[Slide]

Disclaimer: The offline ranks are based on a recent AIM conversation with BAS, with a few of my own opinions on chars he didn't mention. Those chars are denoted with an asterik (*)

Offline:
Rank
S: V-Akuma/V-Sakura
A: V-Karin/V-Sagat/V-Sodom/*A-Dhalshim/*V-Zangief
*"B+": V-Ryu/V-Charlie/V-Vega
*B: A-Guy/V-Rolento/V-Chun Li/A-Gen
*C: Everyone else except
*D: Birdie/Juni (brunette, can't remember if its juli or juni)

Online:

Rank
S: A-Dhalshim/AV-Zangief/ A-Chun
A: A-Ken/A-Gen/A-Blanka/A-Bison
C: Everyone else

Ok its easier for me to explain online since...well the tactics are easier and simpler, and I'm sure most of the people that read this forum mostly have to deal with online situations anyways


My thoughts.

Offline:
B-: V-Ken/V-Mika

Online:
B: A-Ryu/A-Rose

[EveryFlowerFlow]

old topic yes.

but Lust lied. stomp, cross up works in all modes. A/V/X. seems character specific though

[dezmu]

Wait why is V-Ryu or V-Cammy Ranked so low? I know I'm no wheres near the top But I'm quite sure that V-ryu isn't far behind V-Akuma or V-Sakura.
I mean I have a match here with Daigo Playing some unknown, it dosn't seem like ryu is any thing but nice in A3

Unknown VS Daigo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrB47_naXYE

Also in a Japanese tournament I did see alot of Characters ued but V-Ryu,V-Akuma, V-V-Dhalsim and V -Sodom were up there.

This is some parts fomr the actualy tournament
1998 Japan SFA3 Tournament (Part 4 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtE3PEr-uhE&mode=related&search=

1998 Japan SFA3 Tournament (Part 5 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7AaB-O63A&mode=related&search=

1998 Japan SFA3 Tournament (Part 6 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPzqod70Q4M&mode=related&search=

In the grand finals (if you wanna call it that) Deigo use's V-Akuma and Alex use's V-ryu. Even tho this si old I think it shoudl atleast show that High level V-Ryu Can compet with High level V-Akuma.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

those above him are better as they can do high damage anywhere. ryu can only vc in the corner.

Juni is a better cammy with more moves, especially as she has the most damaging the move in the game. Also a3 isn't like 3s. just because a character isn't in the top most tier doesn't mean that they can't win.

[dezmu]

Ok. Like i said I'm not the best nor do I know alot about sfa2. I just seen Deigo use ryu vs good players and Zlex and figured he cant be all that bad. I think v-ryu was also in evo 2004 but im not to sure baout that.

[Hitman]

Ok I been playing the scrub friendly X-Dhalsim. (Should I play A-Dhalsim instead? The QCF X2 super is anti-air right, sure is easier to do than HCFx2 super).

The problem is what can I do against shotos/chun/gief's that cross me up once they get in? You know the drill, a big mixed bag of low attacks into combos or throws or cross-up combos.

Also I know the best Sims play a pressuring game, even online. What are the basic strings/pressuring combos?

[Kyokuji]

'Sim has a teleport for a reason, and all his close normals on A-ISM have a ton of priority.

This is way late, but I thought I was the only one who had a lot of trouble with Rose online.
That c. MP becomes very irritating very quickly.

Online tiers seem to be something like:

X/A-Dhalsim (Self explanatory)
A-Gief (Splash. Harder to jump out of SPD attempts)
X/A-Chun' (Free jump-ins. Moreso than anyone else. Anyone without a DP is going to have a ton of trouble with her.)
A/X-Blanka (Jumping FP, standing FP)
V-Sakura (One of the few characters whose VC's are so easy that the lag doesn't really hinder them too much. She still has her retarded priority too.)
A-Akuma (Prepare to get hit by a lot of LK hurricanes, since they become very difficult to punish online, and his raging demon is really gay if the latency is too high. There have been times where I literally couldn't jump out of it.)
A-Bison (Annoyingly effective hit and run)

Certain characters like Honda and Birdie seem to be much better online as well.

[dezmu]

Kaillera is garbage if v-akuma is that bad. I mean he's a beast same with v-ryu, v-sagat, v-zangeif and v-sakura.

EDIT

[Kyokuji]

..what?

[EveryFlowerFlow]

Certain characters like Honda and Birdie seem to be much better online as well.


Honda is cheap as hell lol and few people are even aware of it.
j.lk stuffs a lot of random stuff. honda splash (d+mk) is annoying because it can be used to crossup fake.

HP Headbutts are virtually unpunishable, on block or hit. and they're good when used as a timed anti air too. cr.lk for footsy, then u+k butt splash and juggle with 100 handslap in corner.

if not in the corner, butt splash wait for them in flip and get them with a free HP Flying Headbutt on the way down.

and of course everyone forgets about his 720 super. so be sure to remind them =).


There's no skill to this character at all lol.

[Kyokuji]

Well, he's nowhere near as bad as his ST incarnation. If you got knocked down up close by ST Honda, you were fucked if you didn't have a DP.

[dezmu]

Sorry about that kyokuji I had to go read what i posed and I was like wtf?

[Kyokuji]

Well, it depends. V-ISM only tends to be viable at pings below 60.
At anything above that, you're gonna be blowing your VCs all the time.

[dezmu]

Yeah it happens to me alot when I use V-Ryu =/

I foudn a rather intersting vid with A-Chun

Takagi(Zangief) vs Maki(Chun-Li)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXp9A939NVk

MAKI(Chun-Li) vs Minami(Akuma)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHu2NGgNeY4

also found some good V-sakura v-akuma v-karin matchs
Minami(Akuma/Gouki) Enmachi(Karin) Ushi(Sakura) vs Makoto(Zangief) Nishi-kawaguchi(Dhalsim) D44(Akuma/Gouki)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8zgZ3EVZB0

[Slide]

Nobody's chun on kal is even remotely close to or even resembles Maki's.
Chun wins even more with CC set ups, smart use of her stand roundhouse on airborne recovering opponents, etc, cause that's a great way for her to get damage.
not constant df+roundhouse or short cross ups and cr+roundhouse spams. That stuff gets you VC'd through. Some people on kal probably didnt know that to VC through a number of characters' cross ups you can duck the cross up and activate in the tight turn around window. You can forget about timing that online. You pay for cross up abuse by losing half your life, but it's not even worth doing online.

EDIT: and the timing is different, the reason you duck is so that their cross up is as late as possible, giving you enough time to activate, see your opponent go on the otherside, and then do the right motion for the move to begin your VCs.
Preferably done with 100% meter instead of 50% if you can. If you have 50% i probably wouldnt try it.

[ChibiPotPie]

My chun is made of chibi and win.

[dezmu]

Nobody's chun on kal is even remotely close to or even resembles Maki's.
Chun wins even more with CC set ups, smart use of her stand roundhouse on airborne recovering opponents, etc, cause that's a great way for her to get damage.
not constant df+roundhouse or short cross ups and cr+roundhouse spams. That stuff gets you VC'd through. Some people on kal probably didnt know that to VC through a number of characters' cross ups you can duck the cross up and activate in the tight turn around window. You can forget about timing that online. You pay for cross up abuse by losing half your life, but it's not even worth doing online.

EDIT: and the timing is different, the reason you duck is so that their cross up is as late as possible, giving you enough time to activate, see your opponent go on the otherside, and then do the right motion for the move to begin your VCs.
Preferably done with 100% meter instead of 50% if you can. If you have 50% i probably wouldnt try it.

Hmm very good info thanks :tup:

[Terry_nb]

'Sim has a teleport for a reason, and all his close normals on A-ISM have a ton of priority.

This is way late, but I thought I was the only one who had a lot of trouble with Rose online.
That c. MP becomes very irritating very quickly.

Online tiers seem to be something like:

X/A-Dhalsim (Self explanatory)
A-Gief (Splash. Harder to jump out of SPD attempts)
X/A-Chun' (Free jump-ins. Moreso than anyone else. Anyone without a DP is going to have a ton of trouble with her.)
A/X-Blanka (Jumping FP, standing FP)
V-Sakura (One of the few characters whose VC's are so easy that the lag doesn't really hinder them too much. She still has her retarded priority too.)
A-Akuma (Prepare to get hit by a lot of LK hurricanes, since they become very difficult to punish online, and his raging demon is really gay if the latency is too high. There have been times where I literally couldn't jump out of it.)
A-Bison (Annoyingly effective hit and run)

Certain characters like Honda and Birdie seem to be much better online as well.


I agree with the Birdie thing. His s.SP and FP are somehow better online.:looney:

I would add V-Ryu into the list. His fireball game is very hard to play against online and his corner VC's aren't so easy to fuck up, plus even if you do it incorrectly his f+SP safes you often for a nice reset ...

However you can't go wrong with A/V Charlie. Well, V-Charlie's midscreen can be bad under lag but else np. I only found it sometimes hard when the ping is above 100 and Sonic Booms wont come out as usual ... He is maybe worth a spot in the lower top ranks.^^