Tick throw question

CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
Hey guy, I have a question about tick throws.

Lets say bison versus bison, ticking with stand short. If it is just one stand short, who has the advantage here? Some people say the person on offense has advantage, and some people say that the defender does, or that it is random who wins in that situation.

I always thought that perfectly timed counter throw by the defender should win every time, but I dunno! It seems some tick throw traps are harder to get out of than others
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Comments

  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Reversal throw will always win if your throw is in range of the attacker.

    http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=175504

    The first one.
    And the fourth one.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    That seems weird to me, that is says that the defender has the advantage, when it really seems like the person on offense does?
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626

    http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=175504

    The first one.
    And the fourth one.

    ....
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Reversal throw will always win if your throw is in range of the attacker.
    If one Dictator does a perfect tick throw, and other player using Dictator does a perfectly timed reversal throw, meaning that they both throw each other on the same frame, the game rolls the dice with who gets the normal attack and who gets the throw. There is no special property to normal throws when done as a reversal off of hit or block stun. So if Honda ticks someone, then does his command throw within his opponent's normal throw range, and his opponent does a reversal throw, it's a 50/50 for who will get a throw as long as they both perform the throw command on the same frame.

    The only time normal throws have a special property when done as reversals is when they are done after recovery, because after you get knocked down you have an invincible standing frame that you can throw on.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    VF4 ladies and gentlemen.

    Shattering conventional wisdom.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    ...
    So you have hard proof that reversal normal throws always beat perfect tick throws?
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    So you have hard proof that reversal normal throws always beat perfect tick throws?

    Beyond it happening whenever you do it in the game ?
    No.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    VF4 ladies and gentlemen.

    Shattering conventional wisdom.

    This issue has been going around and around for so long now, I don't think anyone can say with any authority whether the defender has an advantage or whether it's 50-50. I think the only thing the community can agree on saying, is that the attacker does not have the advantage. And unless there is definitive proof or empirical evidence (which I haven't seen), then the issue of defender having advantage or being 50-50 is not settled yet. When the defender is knocked down, yes, he has an advantage on wakeup, that I agree with. But I'm not so sure about standing tick throws or after a reset. I think it is 50-50, but I could be wrong without empirical proof.

    @OP: either the defender has advantage or it's 50-50, but in either case, the best thing to always do in that situation is to always go for the reversal throw.

    And even when it comes to Special throws vs Normal throws, that issue has not been completely settled yet either. I know Thelo did some tests a while back, and proved that Honda's Ochio can be beat by Dictator's normal throw. But I would like to see more tests being done, especially vs the other Command throws like SPD and Typhoon. As well as testing all characters' Normal throws vs the 3 Special throws. Maybe Dictator is the only one that can beat Special throws, who knows? :razzy:
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    And even when it comes to Special throws vs Normal throws, that issue has not been completely settled yet either. I know Thelo did some tests a while back, and proved that Honda's Ochio can be beat by Dictator's normal throw. But I would like to see more tests being done, especially vs the other Command throws like SPD and Typhoon. As well as testing all characters' Normal throws vs the 3 Special throws. Maybe Dictator is the only one that can beat Special throws, who knows? :razzy:

    There is no real issue there.
    Command throws function the same way any other throw does.
    If dictator is in range he will throw you.
    The reason Gief and other grapplers have more success throwing you is because good grappler players throw you from outside your throw range.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    This issue has been going around and around for so long now, I don't think anyone can say with any authority whether the defender has an advantage or whether it's 50-50.
    :wasted::wasted::wasted::wasted:

    You really think that people have been playing ST for the last 15 years without knowing this? LOL

    A perfect tick normal throw, against a reversal normal throw, in a mirror match, is always 50/50. This has been known for years and years long before HDR came out.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    :wasted::wasted::wasted::wasted:

    You really think that people have been playing ST for the last 15 years without knowing this? LOL

    A perfect tick normal throw, against a reversal normal throw, in a mirror match, is always 50/50. This has been known for years and years long before HDR came out.

    Sure it has.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    The problem is you watch high level matches, where guys like afrolegends tic you with balrog, it seems he is overwhelmingly at advantage, and even top guys can't get out.

    I understand reversals are hard sure, but they do get it a lot, so I dunno!
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Sure it has.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    LO! Keep changing the subject when you were wrong about tick throws. "Reversal throw always beats a tick throw" LOL! You could attend a million gatherings but you'll still make stuff up about tick throws? LOL what amazing logic! Can't argue with that!
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    LO! Keep changing the subject when you were wrong about tick throws. "Reversal throw always beats a tick throw" LOL! You could attend a million gatherings but you'll still make stuff up about tick throws? LOL what amazing logic! Can't argue with that!

    You are totally right.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?

    (Hint: it is pointless to have any argument with VF4. He is simply one of those people who can never own up to being wrong and will simply ignore anything that would challenge his position or show him in a negative light. For you own consideration don't bother with him.)
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Mark it here everyone:

    'reversal throws beat perfect tick throws' - Shari

    Keep the personal attacks up. It means that you are really frustrated that you've been called out for making things up about ST's system when you had no idea what you were talking about. I guess personal attacks mean that you refuse to acknowledge that you just made stuff up about throw properties.

    Remember, the Japanese have explored ST pretty thoroughly, they even look at cross ups down to pixels and frames. It's been known for years that reversal throws against perfect tick throws are 50/50. But I guess Shari gets to rewrite the rules and go as he pleases because he is so amazing.

    Gatherings =/= game knowledge by the way.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    snip.

    You are so right VF4 like you always are.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Shari there is a reason why the defenders throw after a tick is called a counterthrow and a throw on wakeup a reversal throw.

    They are different in nature I believe. On wakeup the game grants you a specific frame where you can do something while still being invulnerable to attacks.

    Coming out of blockstun or hitstun however is different. The only way a counterthrow would be able to beat a perfect tickthrow is if the counterthrow is active before the attackers throw. But I believe that in these situation the reversal frame (and message) refers to the very first frame where you come out of block or hitstun and can do stuff again, but are of course also throwable again. But there is no invulnerability connected to it. You recover and are able to do things again on the same frame where your opponent can throw you. So if you counterthrow a perfect tick your throws are active on the same frame meaning a 50/50 chance of the counterthrow winning.

    The only way this is true is if there is a single frame of throw immunity after coming out of hit or blockstun. I don't think that's the case.

    VF4 you have been proven wrong about something too. Don't be so quick to point the "you don't know what you're talking about" finger at people you disagree with. I've met and played ridiculously strong arcade players of multiple games who were not free from mistakes in their knowledge, something they made up for with superior skills.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Shari there is a reason why the defenders throw after a tick is called a counterthrow and a throw on wakeup a reversal throw.
    What possible qualifications do you have? How many gatherings have you been to? Don't you know how to argue in this thread?

    Shari quick, someone is disagreeing with you, better start asking him about his gathering attendance.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    What possible qualifications do you have?
    He has an A+ in biting.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    snip.

    Dunno i am just going by experience and Ockhams Razor.
    I might be wrong. I am merely doing it because i strongly dislike VF4 and his squirming in trying to avoid answering that question is so much fun.
    Since he has been avoiding it ever since he got called out on it in the "hate hdr thread".
    His avoiding of it actually being noticed by numerous people to the point that he actually left the thread.
    What possible qualifications do you have? How many gatherings have you been to? Don't you know how to argue in this thread?

    Shari quick, someone is disagreeing with you, better start asking him about his gathering attendance.

    I have no qualifications and i have never ever been to a gathering i also have no understanding about how arguing works in this specific thread.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Mark it here everyone:

    'reversal throws beat perfect tick throws' - Shari

    Even when someone agrees with your position (me), you still attack them. You got some serious issues bud. I would suggest you seek some therapy.

    It doesn't matter how long ST has been played, because without empirical evidence, it's just your opinion vs my opinion.

    What Shari said is exactly what the ST Wiki says:

    "Reversing Tick Throws

    These are very effective techniques because the defender only has one frame of advantage. Timing anything with the precision of one frame is pretty difficult. The frame in question is the reversal frame, your first frame of neutral state. The defender can go directly into any attack (a normal move, a throw, a special move, or a super) without ever going to neutral (throwable) state. However, if the defender does not take advantage of the reversal, the attacker and the defender have equal opportunity to throw each other. (If both characters throw on the exact same frame, it is completely random who does the throw and who gets thrown.) "

    Actually the ST Wiki seems confused, and seems to say that the defender does have an advantage and that it's also 50-50. Quick VFF, do the only thing that you're actually good for and edit the ST Wiki. Can't you even get this one thing right?

    Not that I agree with the ST Wiki, I don't think there is a frame of advantage after coming out of hitstun/blockstun or after resets. This is why I think it's always 50-50 if both players throw each other on the first frame after hitstun/blockstun. It would be different if the defender did an invincible-on-startup reversal attack, which would make the defender unthrowable, since the 1st frame after hitstun/blockstun would be invincible. However, reversal throws on the 1st frame after blockstun do not have the same invincibility as reversal throws on the 1st frame after wakeup. And if the attacker throws the defender on the same 1st frame, who's to say that the defender will always win? However, if there was empirical evidence proving that the 1st frame is invincible regardless of what the defender does, same as it is on wakeup, then I would agree with that. Or if there was empirical evidence proving that the 1st frame is not invincible, then I would agree with that too, as that lines up with my experience of reversal throws being 50-50.

    This is why empirical evidence trumps anybody's opinion (including mine or anybody else).
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    What Shari said is exactly what the ST Wiki says:
    Scroll through the Wiki and see whose name you see often after some sections. Hint: it's mine. The ST wiki was and still is filled with BAD and WRONG information. Until people edit it the Wiki will remain unfortunately that way. The ST Wiki said that you couldn't struggle out of holds without taking damage which is false so I edited it. The Wiki also said that O.Ken wasn't better than N.Ken which is quite wrong. The Kara section was extremely outdated and I added a bunch of stuff to that as well. I've taken the time to clean up parts of the Wiki but there is still a ton left to be done. And the language in the Wiki is also often vague and unspecific to the point where nothing conclusive can be taken from it.

    Tomorrow, or maybe tonight, I'll edit the reversal section of the Wiki so that it is actually correct.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    snip.

    Great idea.
    Because it has clearly been shown that your opinion on this matter is fact and therefore the Wiki should be edited to conform to your opinion.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Tomorrow, or maybe tonight, I'll edit the reversal section of the Wiki so that it is actually correct.

    Don't bother. Without empirical evidence, it will never be "correct".
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    As for ST

    I have tested on the Japanese version with macros. Ryu vs Gief and Ryu vs Honda. Reversal SPD beats a perfect short tick into fierce throw every time, and such perfect tick-throw beats reversal oicho almost every time. Only when oicho wins the reversal message is shown.

    Here is what I have used:
    Macro1Name=Oicho
    Macro1Move=D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,R,R+D,D,D+L,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L,D+L+3
    Macro2Name=Perfect tick
    Macro2Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3
    
    and
    Macro1Name=SPD
    Macro1Move=D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,R,R+D,D,D+L,L,U+3,D,D+3,D,D+3,D,D,D+3,D,D+3
    Macro2Name=Perfect tick
    Macro2Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3
    
    I would activate both macros at the same time.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572


    If anyone still thinks that there is a magic frame for the 'defender' when they are ticked then watch NKI's video. You see Guile go from stun directly into being thrown by an SPD. There is no magic neutral frame where he is standing where he would have a chance to counter throw someone. NKI even says 'no frames in between'. Is this hard enough evidence for everyone?
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I just want to emphasize I have tested SPD as the reversal attack, not the offensive, non-counter throw. It shouldn't be hard to test Ryu's fierce throw as the counter one, but it's late in my country and I gotta call it a night.

    Anyway, apparently, Gief's special throw seems to have some precedence Honda's does not against Ryu's fierce throw.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I just want to emphasize I have tested SPD as the reversal attack, not the offensive, non-counter throw. It shouldn't be hard to test Ryu's fierce throw as the counter one, but it's late in my country and I gotta call it a night.

    Anyway, apparently, Gief's special throw seems to have some precedence Honda's does not against Ryu's fierce throw.

    Thanks for the tests oldschool_BR. Yes, this is exactly what you need to test. SPD, Typhoon and Ochio tick throws being beaten/not beaten by normal reversal throws. Although it is fascinating that reversal SPD can beat a tick throw attempt, but not reversal Ochio. When you put your findings together with Thelo's tests, it seems to be that Ochio is at a disadvantage vs normal throws. I would've expected the opposite to be true. But yeah, I'm eagerly awaiting any further tests you do. Thanks again.


    If anyone still thinks that there is a magic frame for the 'defender' when they are ticked then watch NKI's video. You see Guile go from stun directly into being thrown by an SPD. There is no magic neutral frame where he is standing where he would have a chance to counter throw someone. NKI even says 'no frames in between'. Is this hard enough evidence for everyone?

    First of all, that video has nothing to do with reversal throws. Only reversal attacks. NKI purposefully showed Guile remaining in crouch blockstun in order to demonstrate what will happen if no reversal Somersault was executed by Guile. Therefore, there would be no "standing, neutral" frame.

    Second of all, even if Guile had attempted a reversal throw, you wouldn't see him standing up first and then throwing. It would be immediate, from crouching to throwing. Why? Cuz if NKI used programmed inputs (which I think he did), then the game will allow you to throw on the 1st frame after blockstun, and you wouldn't even see the defender standing up. If we're talking about human inputs, then yeah, the defender will stand up before throwing. But that does not mean there is a "standing, neutral" frame before all reversal throws.

    Stop spreading bad information.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    NKI purposefully showed Guile remaining in crouch blockstun in order to demonstrate what will happen if no reversal Somersault was executed by Guile. Therefore, there would be no "standing, neutral" frame.
    Wrong. Guile is in crouching stun because he needs downward charge to execute a flash kick which is the premise of the video. Try again. :woot:
    But that does not mean there is a "standing, neutral" frame before all reversal throws.
    Shari said that there is a special frame where someone is standing after being ticked where they can freely counter throw and beat a tick throw. A 'reversal frame'. But that frame only occurs after getting up from being knocked down as evidence by T.Akiba's frame information. NKI's video shows that you go from stun into a throwable state with NO IN BETWEEN FRAMES. You don't get a special reversal frame like when you wake up after being knocked down. The 'special frame', where you could freely reversal throw out of stun, doesn't exist as evidenced by NKI's video.

    NKI says you go from stun to throwable without an inbetween frames. There isn't stun, special frame, throwable frame. Stop spreading bad information. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    That means that reversal normal throws, done in a mirror match off of a tick setup, are 50/50.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Shari said that there is a special frame where someone is standing after being ticked where they can freely counter throw and beat a tick throw. A 'reversal frame'.

    Yes that is absolutely what i said verbatim and i am sure that if people looked trough the thread they would find the post where i said exactly that.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Lets say bison versus bison, ticking with stand short. If it is just one stand short, who has the advantage here? Some people say the person on offense has advantage, and some people say that the defender does, or that it is random who wins in that situation.

    I always thought that perfectly timed counter throw by the defender should win every time, but I dunno! It seems some tick throw traps are harder to get out of than others
    Reversal throw will always win if your throw is in range of the attacker.
    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Shari said that there is a special frame where someone is standing after being ticked where they can freely counter throw and beat a tick throw. A 'reversal frame'.
    Shari wrote:
    Reversal throw will always win if your throw is in range of the attacker.

    I have to agree with you.
    Shari wrote:
    Yes that is absolutely what i said verbatim and i am sure that if people looked trough the thread they would find the post where i said exactly that.

    These two quotes are exactly verbatim the same.
    You are clearly a genius.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Then explain what makes reversal throws out of stun ALWAYS WIN.

    You seem to be playing a magical version SFII that no one else on the planet plays. LOL.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Then explain what makes reversal throws out of stun ALWAYS WIN.

    You seem to be playing a magical version SFII that no one else on the planet plays. LOL.

    I have to admit i have secretly been using a hacked version of HDR where when someone says Verbatim they don't actually mean the dictionary definition of Verbatim which would be:

    ?adverb
    1.
    in exactly the same words; word for word: to repeat something verbatim.
    ?adjective
    2.
    corresponding word for word to the original source or text: a verbatim record of the proceedings.
    3.
    skilled at recording or noting down speeches, proceedings, etc., with word-for-word accuracy: a verbatim stenographer.

    But what they really mean is what can possibly be reasoned to be true from the intended meaning of a phrase or sentence.

    If i were in anyway close to as intelligent as you are i would reason that what makes reversal throws win out of "Stuns" is the game engine.
    But as i am clearly not in your intellectual league i would never reach that conclusion.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    I have tested on the Japanese version with macros. Ryu vs Gief and Ryu vs Honda. Reversal SPD beats a perfect short tick into fierce throw every time, and such perfect tick-throw beats reversal oicho almost every time. Only when oicho wins the reversal message is shown.

    Here is what I have used:
    Macro1Name=Oicho
    Macro1Move=D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,R,R+D,D,D+L,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L,D+L+3
    Macro2Name=Perfect tick
    Macro2Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3
    
    and
    Macro1Name=SPD
    Macro1Move=D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,R,R+D,D,D+L,L,U+3,D,D+3,D,D+3,D,D,D+3,D,D+3
    Macro2Name=Perfect tick
    Macro2Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3
    
    I would activate both macros at the same time.
    oldschool_BR, which programs exactly did you use? I tried replicating this with Nebula and Kawaks (which I know can use macros), but none of them seems reliable. Nebula's frameskip skips a bunch of frames at once instead of a single one, for starters.

    But even more worryingly, in both emulators, I tried using this "Perfect tick" macro with Zangief, so he would do low short -> normal fierce throw (in Zangief mirror), but the game sometimes makes that an actual tick throw, and sometimes makes him do low short -> command hop. In other words, the macro's timing seemed variable. Yes, I set the game to Turbo 0. It seems that both of these emulators have extra variance with their macros, so you're probably using another one I'm not aware of?
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    A word of warning with macro programs. I used AutoIt on Maj's recommendation (well, an article he wrote), but he said the problem with it is that even if you set it up right it's impossible to get the inputs to execute at the exact same time.

    I made a simple macro for Ken vs Ken to throw eachother. I wrote it so that the throw commands should have been sent on the same frame. On my first test it looked like player 1 would always win the throw if the throws were executed on the same frame. I swapped the commands round (keeping them on the same frame) and the opposite happened. If ST's throws really are random when pressed at the same time, then it seems it's not possible to test this with AutoIt.

    Who won the throw came down to whoever input the command first, even though it was executed within the same frame. I wouldn't trust AutoIt for testing things like tick throw reversals and stuff yet. I'd speak to Maj first to get his input and to see if he figured out a way round it (I think he did).

    On the other hand, I find this problem strange. I thought the game would only poll for inputs at regular 1/60 second intervals meaning that if something was executed within a specific frame, that it would be impossible for someone to input it earlier or later, unless it was input a frame earlier or later.

    For example say if something was executed 1667ms into the game (100th frame) and another was input at 1675ms (still the 100th frame but 8ms later). The second throw input seems to lose to the first, even though it is in the same frame. I thought the game would only be as accurate to 16.6ms and that if these were input at these times that you would get a random throw since they were executed in the same frame (so how late on in the frame is irrelevant as it only polls at 16.6ms). That was my theory.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    A word of warning with macro programs. I used AutoIt on Maj's recommendation (well, an article he wrote), but he said the problem with it is that even if you set it up right it's impossible to get the inputs to execute at the exact same time....

    I'm observing a range of frame rates roughly 59.84 fps to 60.15 fps between HDR, SFIV and SSFIV a TV, and my Computer Monitor (all on XBox 360).

    For HDR and similar games you can test your frame accuracy by doing what I call a wiggle test - with ken, go foward for 2 frames, and backward for 3, then repeat 1000 times or so. If your timing is dialed in well, Ken will be stationary. If your timing is off, he'll most likely weave and wiggle.

    ...this will probably bug me until I test it myself too...:wonder:
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    what about a test using normal throws vs normal throws?
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So then, it seems a possible variable is that the rounding of precisely when a throw command is entered definitively with the button press may go up or down, depending. This is very interesting. It could also explain why Gief's SPD always wins, because he has more active grab frames which cover the entire window in question. Good luck with more testing, team!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    oldschool_BR, which programs exactly did you use? I tried replicating this with Nebula and Kawaks (which I know can use macros), but none of them seems reliable. Nebula's frameskip skips a bunch of frames at once instead of a single one, for starters.

    But even more worryingly, in both emulators, I tried using this "Perfect tick" macro with Zangief, so he would do low short -> normal fierce throw (in Zangief mirror), but the game sometimes makes that an actual tick throw, and sometimes makes him do low short -> command hop. In other words, the macro's timing seemed variable. Yes, I set the game to Turbo 0. It seems that both of these emulators have extra variance with their macros, so you're probably using another one I'm not aware of?
    I have used Nebula's macros. More specifically:
    1. used the Japanese version;
    2. set the speed to fixed turbo 3;
    3. created a file called ssf2xj.mac in the MACRO directory;
    4. because I do not know the correct preamble so the emulator recognizes characters, I have used the same one from SSF2, but both characters' macros default to Ryu's;
    5. set Ryu's macros to the ones listed;
    6. set both macros to the same button;
    I have just noticed the timing is not strict, too. For the first tests, I had used punch, release, repeat x 4 to emulate a turbo on the macros that would not activate hands, so I could get a reversal on the tick almost every time. Today, on the other hand, I have tried using a single input to see if it would be OK, and it would not, at least not for Zangief. I have spent a lot of time trying to get a descent tick into SPD macro, and it would not work. I'd get green hands, jump or hop. I could only get an SPD by cancelling a cr.jab or right after it, but then the enemy is still in recovery animation.

    For an oicho tick like
    Macro1Name=Oicho tick
    Macro1Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F,F+D,D,D+B,D+B+3
    Macro2Name=tick escape
    Macro2Move=D+B,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D+F,F+3
    
    Ryu would escape almost every time.
    what about a test using normal throws vs normal throws?
    If I set both fierce punches to the same button in any emulator, it seems random who gets the throw. I have used this in Nebula:
    Macro1Name=tick
    Macro1Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3
    Macro2Name=tick escape
    Macro2Move=D+B,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3
    
    But I have realized timing varies. The first input for the defender is defensive crouch, but by the time the cr.short gets active the defender should take the hit. I have noticed he would sometimes block, which means around 3-4 frames leniency.
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