Tick throw question

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Comments

  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    Then why are there implications that a reversal throw in that situation only has a 50/50 chance of winning?

    Because people like making up excuses when they screw up.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Because people like making up excuses when they screw up.

    So there can't be any validity in the claim?
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  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    So there can't be any validity in the claim?

    Burden of proof.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Double post FTL...
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    So, I ran several tests...
    EDIT: And was confused by negative edge specials...

    Test 1:
    Double hit jab -> simultaneous reversal SPD or Typhoon. In both cases it looks like a coin flip.

    Test 2:
    Single hit jab -> simultaneous reversal SPD or Typhoon & normal SPD or Typhoon. The reversal always wins.

    Test 3: (Invalidated)...

    Test 4:
    Double hit jab -> SPD vs 'normal grab' on the reversal frame. Looks like a coin flip - grab out of SPD is possible even when the Reversal Attack message comes out.

    So: (EDITED)
    It appears there is 1 reversal frame.
    Characters cannot be thrown during reversal frames except by reversal throws.

    At Wheezy's request i did Bison vs Bison with a short tick throw.
    On the reversal frame, the one that got hit always gets the throw.
    On the following frame it's a toss-up.
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I believe there is nothing special about the first frame after getting up. The only special property the character has during all the first 13 or something frames is that he can not be thrown. The WW ticks were very powerful because a character would have to enter a neutral state before being playable again. They could only block while from CE onwards all characters can use attacks and throws.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    So when do these reversal frames happen Rufus, right after block/hitstun?

    In test3, are you saying that you cannot do a normal throw on reversal frame, but you can get thrown. That means that perfect tickthrows are in fact unbeatable by normal throws, something we know is not the case.

    In your Bison vs Bison example, if the Bison who gets hit always gets the throw on the 2nd reversal frame (there are two now?) what happens if the the Bison who initiated the tick does his throw on the first reversal frame?

    lots of weirdness.

    Also why are most of your tests with command throws. Normal throws are equally important.


    About wakeup situations. The T.Akiba data actually mentions the wakeup frame data as an avarage XX.5 frames. Signifying you can do stuff again (jump, throw, special move, super) at XX frames (reversal message will show up for special moves/supers) but you can't be hit until frame XX+1. (saying that meaties will whiff on your reversal frame). Hence you are in fact invulnerable on the reversal frame on wakeup.
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    So when do these reversal frames happen Rufus, right after block/hitstun?
    For the testing with T. Hawk and Zangief, it's after getting hit by jab. For M Bison it was after getting hit by short.
    In test3, are you saying that you cannot do a normal throw on reversal frame, but you can get thrown. That means that perfect tickthrows are in fact unbeatable by normal throws, something we know is not the case.

    In your Bison vs Bison example, if the Bison who gets hit always gets the throw on the 2nd reversal frame (there are two now?) what happens if the the Bison who initiated the tick does his throw on the first reversal frame?
    It appears that there are 2 reversal frames, and, on the first reversal frame, it's only possible to do special moves.
    About wakeup situations. The T.Akiba data actually mentions the wakeup frame data as an avarage XX.5 frames. Signifying you can do stuff again (jump, throw, special move, super) at XX frames (reversal message will show up for special moves/supers) but you can't be hit until frame XX+1. (saying that meaties will whiff on your reversal frame). Hence you are in fact invulnerable on the reversal frame on wakeup.
    Get-up timing can be a little more involved and would require its own testing.
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    It occurs to me that I might be getting the negative edge on the specials..will need to test a little more.
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Test 1:
    Double hit jab -> simultaneous reversal SPD or Typhoon. In both cases it looks like a coin flip.

    Test 2:
    Single hit jab -> simultaneous reversal SPD or Typhoon & normal SPD or Typhoon. The reversal always wins.
    One this has just came to my mind: the frame advantage after an attack is longer for the first attack of a combination. So, isn't the simultaneous SPD/Typhoon after two jabs happening at the second possible frame, while the SPD/Typhoon after a single jab is happening at the first one?

    Edit: Rufus has cleared it up already. Thanks.

    Nice tests, man. As always, helpful stuff.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    For the testing with T. Hawk and Zangief, it's after getting hit by jab. For M Bison it was after getting hit by short.
    and the reversal frames are after hit/blockstun ends?
    It appears that there are 2 reversal frames, and, on the first reversal frame, it's only possible to do special moves.
    Can you be thrown on those reversal frames? What happens if the attacker lands a throw on the first reversal frame?

    what you said has massive implications but you aren't given them their due with short replies. If what you said is true and you cannot do a reversal normal throw on the first reversal frame, then perfect tickthrows cannot ever be countered by reversal normal throws because they can't happen. This means guaranteed throws on chargeless characters even within their throw range.

    That is contrary to everything we believed.
    Get-up timing can be a little more involved and would require its own testing.
    sorry, that was a reply to someone else.
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    One this has just came to my mind: the frame advantage after an attack is longer for the first attack of a combination. So, isn't the simultaneous SPD/Typhoon after two jabs happening at the second possible frame, while the SPD/Typhoon after a single jab is happening at the first one?

    Nice tests, man. As always, helpful stuff.

    I was getting a negative edge SPD/Typhoon on the reversal frame instead of a positive edge one on the frame before - there's only one reversal frame.
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Can you be thrown on those reversal frames?

    As I mentioned, my testing got confused by accidentental negative edge special moves.
    It appears that you can only be thrown by a reversal throw (normal or special) during the reversal frame.
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  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Test 3:
    Single hit jab -> Simultaneous Reversal SPD/Typhoon & Normal throw. The reversal SPD occasionally misses. No normal throw or attack came out. This suggests that it's not possible to do normal throws during reversal frames.


    According to Sirlin's CCC2 tutorials you can use normal throws as reversals against meaty ground normals. This is illustrated in T.Akiba's wake up animation data being expressed in half frames. And there are numerous examples of matches on YouTube where someone does a reversal throw while rising. So normal throws are possible on the special reversal frame after the rising animation. And they should be possible coming out of stun as well.
    So:
    It appears there are 2 reversal frames.
    During the first reversal frame, only special moves can be done(no normal throws, no command attacks)
    During the second reversal frame regular moves can be done.
    Put HDR on turbo 0. Put someone in block stun with an attack, then have the person who is in stun rapid fire a normal attack, so that it animates on the first frame out of stun. Then put the person in block stun again, using the same attack from before, and have that person do a reversal special attack now. Count how many frames of block stun they are in (it should be equal if you are using the same move each time) and then count how quickly the rapid fired normal starts up and how quickly the reversal special attack comes out. If both attacks come out on the same frame after stun then there are not two reversal frames built into stun animations. If the reversal attack comes out one frame earlier out of stun as compared to the rapid fired (at 1/60) normal then there are two reversal frames. The attacks should come out on the same frame.
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  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    This is all extremely confusing. Forgive me if you felt this is all clear but it is not to me. It is also early in the morning and i have not yet slept)

    Situation1: character A sets up a tick throw (normal). Character B is in the FIRST reversal frame after leaving block/hitstun from the tick.

    Can character A throw character B on this frame? (normal or command, does it matter?)
    Can character B execute a normal reversal throw?
    Can character B execute a command reversal throw?
    If Character A can throw character B on this frame, aside from unthrowable special moves, does character B have an option to escape/counter?

    Situation2: character A sets up a tick throw (normal). Character B is in the SECOND reversal frame after leaving block/hitstun from the tick.

    Can character A throw character B on this frame? (normal or command, does it matter?)
    Can character B execute a normal reversal throw?
    Can character B execute a command reversal throw?
    If Character A can throw character B on this frame, aside from unthrowable special moves, does character B have an option to escape/counter?
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    VF4, this test would only be valid if there were no inherent input delay in the game. Somehow, there is some 4 frame buffer in the game, and the whole buffer could be used. But all this is pointless, as Rufus has already mentioned that it was just a negative edge reversal, in fact, stating that there is only one reversal frame.

    Edit: As for rapid fire attacks, even with the highest rate (30 Hz) there should still be a 50% chance that the attack will not come out in the first possible frame.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    There is a thred somewhere where NKI deals with this.

    Please don't tease us fatboy. Link bro! *joking, but also serious*:lovin:
    If two throws are exicuted at the same time then you have a 50/50 chance you get your throw.

    You're talking about situations where it's not a tick throw, right? Like both characters walking up to each other and executing a throw at the same time. I agree with that. However, it's tick throws that need to be figured out whether they are 50-50 also.
    There is no way that a reversal throw and a tick throw can be exicutetd at the same time by the very definition of what a "reversal" throw is.

    Why not? To me, a reversal throw happens on the 1st frame after blockstun, after wakeup and after a reset.

    If a defender blocks a cr Short, they are in blockstun for 11 frames:
    1st frame of blockstun--->11th and last frame of blockstun = unthrowable due to blockstun
    12th frame = 1st frame after blockstun (why is this frame unthrowable?)
    If you are saying that the 12th frame has the same invincible property that the 1st frame has after wakeup (unthrowable), then yes, I would say this makes sense. However, if the 1st frame after blockstun had the same unthrowable property as wakeup, and NKI was the one who discovered this himself, since it's not part of Akiba's data, then I think this issue would not be confusing at all. In fact, we would hear everybody saying the same thing about blockstun as they do about wakeup: "it's invincible to throws, same as wakeup".

    But we don't hear this. The issue is complicated because there is no definitive proof that the 1st frame after blockstun is immune to throws. And playing the game does not support this theory either. But no matter what NKI or Akiba or anybody else says, empirical evidence is the only way to bust this myth. And I have not seen any data proving this one way or the other.
    Yes, it does. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to reversal SRK a tick throw.

    A reversal Shoryuken beats tick throws because the 1st frame of the Shoryuken is invincible, not because the 1st frame after blockstun is invincible. If a reversal Shoryuken is executed after blocking a cr Short, the 1st frame of the Shoryuken occurs right after the last frame of blockstun. So the defender goes from 11 frames of unthrowability (due to blockstun), immediately into an invincible state (also unthrowable), with no break in between. This does not have anything to do with the 1st frame after blockstun being invincible, but rather the invincibility of the Shoryuken. If the defender did a reversal Hadoken instead of Shoryuken, they'd get tossed for sure.

    12th frame = 1st frame after blockstun = 1st frame of reversal Shoryuken = unthrowable due to invincibility of Shoryuken

    Also when waking up, you are only invulnerable if you execute a move on the reversal frame that has invincibility properties.

    Akiba's data shows that the 1st frame after wakeup (or half of it) is completely invincible regardless of what the waking up opponent does. You can even start a jump by holding up after wakeup, and the character will actually start the 1st frame of their pre-jump animation before getting hit by the meaty attack or whatever.

    Excerpt from NKI's site in the "getting up speed" section:
    "So for example, Claw has 80.5 listed. That means that he can start to jump on frame 80, but he can't be hit until frame 81. "

    I believe there is nothing special about the first frame after getting up. The only special property the character has during all the first 13 or something frames is that he can not be thrown.

    The 1st frame after wakeup is not just unthrowable, but unhittable too. Truly invincible. See above.
    This is all extremely confusing. Forgive me if you felt this is all clear but it is not to me. It is also early in the morning and i have not yet slept)

    I also find that some of the posted tests are a bit confusing too. Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate all the posters taking the time to do the tests (oldschool_BR, Thelo and Rufus and anybody else). But the posted results are not as detailed as they could be, I guess.

    Anyways, I decided to add examples to the situations described by Fulaani so that it's very clear what that situation would look like in the game:
    Situation1: character A sets up a tick throw (normal). Character B is in the FIRST reversal frame after leaving block/hitstun from the tick.
    Example: Blanka vs Zangief. Blanka blocks a point blank cr Jab or cr Short by Zangief, and after 11 frames of blockstun is now on the 1st frame after blockstun (12th frame).

    Can character A throw character B on this frame? (normal or command, does it matter?)
    Example: Zangief executes a SPD after the cr Jab, but not with combo timing, and the SPD's 1st active frame starts before blockstun ends (like in ). Does Blanka get thrown on the 12th frame or after the 12th frame?

    Can character B execute a normal reversal throw?
    Example: if Blanka does b+Fierce on the 12th frame, does he get his reversal Bite, or does Zangief's SPD beat his normal throw? (the cr Jab by Zangief would have to be done from point blank range in order for Blanka to remain within Bite range)

    Can character B execute a command reversal throw?
    Example: if it was a Zangief mirror, and the defending Zangief did a reversal SPD on the 12th frame, does it beat the attacking Zangief's tick SPD, or get beaten?

    If Character A can throw character B on this frame, aside from unthrowable special moves, does character B have an option to escape/counter?
    Example: if Blanka's reversal Bite beats the tick SPD on the 12th frame, can Blanka execute a Back Hop instead (which is invincible on its 1st frame), and still avoid the tick SPD on the 12th frame?

    Situation2: character A sets up a tick throw (normal). Character B is in the SECOND reversal frame after leaving block/hitstun from the tick.
    Example: Blanka blocks a point blank cr Jab or cr Short by Zangief, and after 11 frames of blockstun is now on the 2nd frame after blockstun (13th frame).

    Can character A throw character B on this frame? (normal or command, does it matter?)
    Example: Zangief executes a SPD after the cr Jab, but not with combo timing, and the SPD's 1st active frame DOES NOT START before blockstun ends, but rather starts on the 2nd frame after blockstun (13th frame). Does Blanka get thrown on the 13th frame or after the 13th frame?

    Can character B execute a normal reversal throw?
    Example: if Blanka does b+Fierce on the 13th frame, does he get his COUNTER Bite, or does Zangief's SPD beat his normal throw? (Note: this would not be classified as a reversal Bite by Blanka because it does not occur on the 1st frame after blockstun, therefore it's just a counter throw, not a reversal throw)

    Can character B execute a command reversal throw?
    Example: if it was a Zangief mirror, and the defending Zangief did a counter SPD on the 13th frame, does it beat the attacking Zangief's SPD, or get beaten? (Note: this would not be classified as a reversal SPD by the defending Zangief because it does not occur on the 1st frame after blockstun, therefore it's just a counter SPD, not a reversal SPD)

    If Character A can throw character B on this frame, aside from unthrowable special moves, does character B have an option to escape/counter?
    Example: if Blanka's counter Bite beats the SPD on the 13th frame, can Blanka execute a Back Hop instead (which is invincible on its 1st frame), and still avoid the SPD on the 13th frame?

    Thanks again to all the posters doing the tests, it is truly appreciated. This is the kind of stuff I love: breaking new ground, busting old myths and shit. Really good stuff. :tup:
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I thought Maj's article on Turbo speeds, said that SF2 had two reversal frames, but frame skipping reduced it to one. You might get a small difference on T0?

    http://sonichurricane.com/?p=1864

    "Normally this isn?t a problem for cancels because impact freeze provides a large margin of error. It?s usually not a problem for reversal timing either, because almost all Capcom games have a 2-frame reversal window which can narrow to 1 frame but never disappears. However, high turbo speeds wreak utter havoc on 1-frame links and other combo components requiring 1-frame input accuracy."

    *Although for another thread, he states in the article that internal frames are still processed, yet at higher speeds the game actually does lose a reversal frame. :looney:

    EDIT: Maybe SFII doesn't have two reversal frames at T0 since it says almost.
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    I thought Maj's article on Turbo speeds, said that SF2 had two reversal frames, but frame skipping reduced it to one. You might get a small difference on T0?
    ...
    EDIT: Maybe SFII doesn't have two reversal frames at T0 since it says almost.

    Yeah, I expected to see two reversal frames because of that article. At least after getting hit, there is only one reversal frame - that is, only one frame where the 'reversal attack' message comes up.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Is it possible that the reversal frame out of stun just has different properties than the wakeup version?

    Kinda like prejump frames are grounded frames with different on hit properties.
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  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Is it possible that the reversal frame out of stun just has different properties than the wakeup version?
    Yes. The first frame out of wake up is a frame where you are fully standing (and therefore can throw) and also you are completely invincible. It is a special frame of animation that all characters have. This is why a meaty attack, where the active (or red) hit boxes are overlapping your sprite as you wake up, can be thrown. This is a reversal throw, and it is done on the last frame, a special frame, at the end of the rising animation. There is also a randomness factor associated with this frame, meaning if you try a reversal throw on that frame, you have a small chance (less than 10% if I remember correctly) that a normal attack will come out and you won't get a throw. Meaning that meaty attack will connect against you even though you properly executed a throw with reversal timing. Also after a rising animation, you have 13 frames where if you remain in neutral, you are immune to throws. If you attempt to attack, or jump, or throw, then you leave neutral and become able to be thrown. This is why you can't throw someone immediately after they wake up. You must tick them with a meaty, tick them after they wake up, or and try to throw then though it's very risky.

    The special invincible reversal frame, random chance at failing reversal throws, and 13 frames of throw invulnerability, you aren't afforded any of those when coming out of hit or block stun. Imagine being immune to throws for 13 frames out of stun. Stun is very straightforward, you go from stun, to neutral, with no in-between frames of any kind. Reversal attacks still work, but reversal throws become counter throws, because a reversal throw against a perfect tick throw only gives you a 50/50 shot of actually winning. A reversal attack, that has priority over throws, will win every time of course coming out of stun.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    The special invincible reversal frame, random chance at failing reversal throws, and 13 frames of throw invulnerability, you aren't afforded any of those when coming out of hit or block stun. Imagine being immune to throws for 13 frames out of stun. Stun is very straightforward, you go from stun, to neutral, with no in-between frames of any kind. Reversal attacks still work, but reversal throws become counter throws, because a reversal throw against a perfect tick throw only gives you a 50/50 shot of actually winning. A reversal attack, that has priority over throws, will win every time of course coming out of stun.
    That makes sense, except for the part where Rufus's test shows that Zangief getting hit by a jab, then doing a "reversal out of stun" SPD always wins against a perfect tick throw. If what you just said was correct, Zangief should be getting thrown 50% of the time, right? But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

    Here's what we know:

    A) In non-reversal situations, command throw vs normal throw is 50/50 (Honda ochio vs Bison normal throw)
    B) In "reversal out of knockdown", reversal throw always wins (both command throw and normal throw)

    Here's what we're testing now:

    C) In "reversal out of stun", does command throw (defender) always win? Rufus's test #2 says yes, but according to VFF's explanation, no.

    D) In "reversal out of stun", does normal throw (defender) vs command throw (attacker) always win? Both Rufus's test #4 and VFF's explanation say no, it's a 50/50 situation.

    E) In "reversal out of stun", does normal throw vs normal throw always win? Rufus's Bison (short tick) vs Bison test says yes, and VFF's explanation says no, it's a 50/50 situation.

    Am I missing anything?
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    :Stuff....

    :karate:

    @blitzfu
    It in the ST turbo in tha' house thread. There are like 4,000 posts in there. That is why I didn't link it.
    fatboy wrote:
    There is no way that a reversal throw and a tick throw can be executed at the same time by the very definition of what a "reversal" throw is.
    blitzfu wrote:
    Why not? To me, a reversal throw happens on the 1st frame after block stun....

    Respectfully, you are incorrect here. (not flaming)

    It sounds like you read wiki, and repeated nearly word for word. However, though VF4 has done a great job updating the wiki, he left some ambiguity in some of his write up. (but over all excellent job SF4!!!)

    The wiki states:
    A reversal is defined as: any time you go from a non-neutral state directly into a move (normal, special, super, or throw), without ever going to neutral state. A non-neutral state is any state that your opponent inflicts on you: block stun, hit stun, getting up after being knocked down, dizzy, or being knocked out of the air.

    For example, your opponent knocks you down, and just as you're getting up, you time a Dragon Punch perfectly, so that it comes out on the first frame possibleonce your character is standing. You never go into a neutral state - you go directly from your invincible waking up animation, to a Dragon Punch animation. The game will confirm your reversal, with a reversal message, and will add 1000 points to your arcade score. The reversal message only shows up when a special attack, special throw, or Super move is done as a reversal.

    As I stated it seems you repeated the highlighted area nearly word for word (maybe you didn't but it seems like it).... but since the write-up didn't clearly indicate what the "first frame possible" actually was you assumed it was the
    blitzfu wrote:
    1st frame after blockstun....

    This is incorrect; the reversal frame is the LAST frame before you leave hit/block stun. Not the first frame out of stun.

    So when you ask
    blitzfu wrote:
    Why not?

    You need to follow the following game mechanic rules.

    1) While a player is in hit/block stun they are unthrowable.

    2) During the last frame of hit/block stun a reversal can be executed. Reversals are special, Supers, and Throws.

    Therefore, a player can execute a throw during the last frame of his/her character's unthrowbale state.

    This means that a player can execute a throw while being totally immune to an opponent?s throw for one frame while coming out of the "tick" in the "tick-throw" attempt.

    Reversal thorws have a clear advantage over normal tick throw attempts, simply because one character can be thrown while the other cannot.
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    1) While a player is in hit/block stun they are unthrowable.

    2) During the last frame of hit/block stun a reversal can be executed. Reversals are special, Supers, and Throws.
    AFAICT It's possible to do normal attacks on that frame as well. This could be important since, for example, Chun Li's down/toward + Roundhouse is a plausible throw escape.
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  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    You need to follow the following game mechanic rules.

    1) While a player is in hit/block stun they are unthrowable.

    2) During the last frame of hit/block stun a reversal can be executed. Reversals are special, Supers, and Throws.

    Are you saying that you can do a move (throw/SRK/etc) that actually cancels the last frame of block/hit stun. In other words, normally if you do nothing(block) you'd be in stun for X frames, but if you do a reversal you're visually only in stun for X - 1 frames? I find that kind of hard to believe.

    I've also always been skeptical about this magical invincible frame on wake-up. The reason is that I see no need for it. You can reversal throw/SRK on wakeup and you can reversal throw/SRK after stun. And in both cases I don't see the reason for the game to make you invincible during that reversal frame. Intuitively, it would seem like the game would work like this:

    f1 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f2 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f3 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f4 P1 = tries to jump, P2 = meaty fierce -> Fierce beats jump, so P2 hits P1

    f1 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f2 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f3 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f4 P1 = Ken's SRK, P2 = meaty fierce -> SRK is invincible, so P1 hits P2

    f1 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f2 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f3 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
    f4 P1 = throws, P2 = meaty fierce -> Throw beats fierce, so P1 throws P2

    I also think the exact same thing happens when coming out of block/hit stun. In other words, first the game lets each player choose their move. Then it figures out which one wins. I'm not saying this is right. I'm just saying it seems like the game would still play the way we all know it to play without any magical invincible frame or exiting stun early. If these properties do exist, I would love to see a frame by frame explanation of this stuff, like NKI's reversal vs tick throw video. Sadly, it doesn't sound like there's an easy way to test this stuff with these emulators :xeye:
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Are you saying that you can do a move (throw/SRK/etc) that actually cancels the last frame of block/hit stun. In other words, normally if you do nothing(block) you'd be in stun for X frames, but if you do a reversal you're visually only in stun for X - 1 frames? I find that kind of hard to believe.

    Well, it's definitely before throw immunity expires.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    This is incorrect; the reversal frame is the LAST frame before you leave hit/block stun. Not the first frame out of stun.
    No it is not. Blitzfu is correct. The reversal frame from stun is not on the last frame of stun. When you are put into stun for 11 frames, you are put into stun for those full 11 frames, you cannot cancel the last frame of stun into anything, you cannot reverse or throw on that frame. You are locked into stun for the entire duration until you recover into neutral. The way a reversal attack works, is that instead of recovering directly into neutral from stun, , which is (hopefully) not throwable. You cannot throw on that last 11th frame of stun, you must throw 12 frames after you've been hit, which is on the frame following the last frame of stun.

    In NKI's video, Guile isn't stopping his last frame of stun by going into a flash kick, he recovers from stun first, and then does a move that becomes unthrowable on the first frame. How much clearer it be made? Guile goes from stun, unthrowable, to throwable with no special in-between frames when he gets thrown. Then, he goes from stun, to reversal flash kick with no in-between frames, and beats the SPD.
    You need to follow the following game mechanic rules.

    1) While a player is in hit/block stun they are unthrowable.

    2) During the last frame of hit/block stun a reversal can be executed. Reversals are special, Supers, and Throws.
    The first part is correct but the second part is not. You cannot execute anything during stun. You have to recover first. And reversals can be normal attacks as well though they aren't that useful unless done as throws.

    Put someone into stun with an attack that causes 11 frames of block stun, have them do a reversal, and count how many frames of stun that they were in. It's 11 frames of stun, if they reverse, or if they don't reverse. No difference. They don't stop on the 10th frame of stun and then perform a reversal. If I'm reading you correctly that is what you are saying right? That the last frame of stun can be stopped and replaced by a reversal? Because that is simply not the case.
    Therefore, a player can execute a throw during the last frame of his/her character's unthrowbale state.
    Not from stun though. The special reversal frame for throws only exists after rising animations which is why T.Akiba purposefully expresses rising animations in half frame values and nothing else. Rising animations have other special properties as well which I've already posted above. Rising recovery is distinct and different from stun recovery.
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  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    This is incorrect; the reversal frame is the LAST frame before you leave hit/block stun. Not the first frame out of stun.
    This is the crux of the issue. If this can be confirmed or debunked with certainty then we can also have certainty on this whole counter throwing business.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485

    This is incorrect; the reversal frame is the LAST frame before you leave hit/block stun. Not the first frame out of stun.

    You need to follow the following game mechanic rules.

    1) While a player is in hit/block stun they are unthrowable.

    2) During the last frame of hit/block stun a reversal can be executed. Reversals are special, Supers, and Throws.

    Therefore, a player can execute a throw during the last frame of his/her character's unthrowbale state.

    This means that a player can execute a throw while being totally immune to an opponents throw for one frame while coming out of the "tick" in the "tick-throw" attempt.

    Reversal thorws have a clear advantage over normal tick throw attempts, simply because one character can be thrown while the other cannot.

    And this confirms what I've been holding back from saying...read my FAQ! :D I detail this in the tick throwing section.

    Of course, if this gets proven wrong, I'm definitely changing it. :) I anxiously await the results.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    This is the crux of the issue. If this can be confirmed or debunked with certainty then we can also have certainty on this whole counter throwing business.
    In addition to it, I am interested in Rufus' extra test: the difference of single ticks and multi-hit ticks (e.g., safe jump + tick, jab-jab tick). We know there is a difference between the first hit of a combo or bock string and the second one. It looks like the stun is one frame longer, according to the tests. To be sure, I would like to ask one thing to Rufus: if you remove the SPD from Gief's tick, will he be thrown by the other character with the macro? You have said he wins every time, but if mu assumption is correct and you have forgotten about changing the perfect tick counter, then Gief would be winning 100% of the time due to the enemy character trying a "negative-edge throw," which of course does not exist.

    Edit: it had been proved that single attacks have a one-frame-longer advantage over further attacks. However, the exact nature of why it happens had not been determined. By then, I had tried testing with Kawaks frame-by-frame function, but failed to provide a definite conclusion.
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    @ VF4.

    Well I am not going to agrue. I might very well be wrong. I am not the ST authority. I explained how I understood it to be. Though it wouldn't be the first time I was incorrect. Not that it really matters. It's hardly worth the amount of text that has gone into this arguement.

    Well whomever wins this debate, I'll gladly take my hat of to you. :karate:

    Good luck!
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Not from stun though. The special reversal frame for throws only exists after rising animations which is why T.Akiba purposefully expresses rising animations in half frame values and nothing else. Rising animations have other special properties as well which I've already posted above. Rising recovery is distinct and different from stun recovery.

    I still find that hard to believe. If rising gives you an extra frame of invincibility where you can do a move, then you would get TWO frames to reversal throw/SRK/etc while rising and only ONE frame to reversal out of hit/block stun. That seems hard to buy. I suppose it's possible, but in play they both feel just as tight to land/miss. You'd think having double the frames would make wake-ups feel a lot easier.

    I'm curious, are you aware of any videos that cover the rising properties slowed down and in-depth? If not, does anyone know if any of these emulators allow you to easily control the game frame by frame? I tried firing up FBA, but you can only slow it down 50% and I couldn't really control both players well enough.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    Why is this thread still going on ?

    You reversal throw the same way you do any other reversal.
    Out of hitstun or blockstun.
    The exactly same way.
    And it is one frame.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=5764689&viewfull=1#post5764689 <--- If you don't trust raisin's knowledge i don't know what to say.
    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=3339848&viewfull=1#post3339848

    The info that was in the ST wiki was right.
    Fatboy was talking earlier about NKI explaining this issue.
    That is the reason i am saying the info that was posted in the ST wiki was right.
    Because NKI wrote that.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=148212&p=4752493&viewfull=1#post4752493

    But alas that should be edited as to conform with VF4's opinion because as well all know VF4 can never be wrong about anything and surely knows the game engine better than NKI or Raisin.

    From Raisin's post: "And you're right, if you correctly put a throw command in the reversal window and your opponent is throwable (not jumping or invincible, within your throw range, etc.) then you will beat their tick throw attempt and throw them first, every time."
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Shari it's not the same. If Fatboy is right and there is a special dedicated reversal frame before leaving hit/blockstun then this means a throw executed on that frame will always beat a perfect tickthrow.

    If VF4, Blitzfu and myself are right it means that countering a perfect tickthrow with your own has a max success rate of 50%.

    I'd like to believe in what Fatboy, Nki and Raison are saying, it would make for a better throw system imo. But I find it far fetched that you can cancel out of the last frame of block/hitstun with a reversal.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    Shari it's not the same. If Fatboy is right and there is a special dedicated reversal frame before leaving hit/blockstun then this means a throw executed on that frame will always beat a perfect tickthrow.

    Fatboy, NKI and Raisin does say that.
    That is what they are saying.

    This is right.

    People can make all the claims they want about there being some 50/50 chance but until they actually show some solid evidence for it other than "Has been known for over 15 years" or similar statements there is no argument here.

    It is not far fetched to believe this but it is what has been taught to anyone learning ST for years.
    It is common knowledge.
    When i started playing ST that is what i was told and it has worked for me ever since.
    This thread is actually the first time i have ever heard of anyone thinking there is a 50/50 chance.
    And if people want to make such a claim i suggest they find some evidence for it.

    Burden of proof.
    Until that happens there is no argument.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I can think of a potential setup.

    A meaty after knockdown, and then a normal timed after the meaty (attacker with + frame adv) to hit on the last frame of stun, and then another test on the frame after the last frame of stun.

    If the last frame of stun is a reversal frame like knockdown reversal frame, then it the attacker should be throwable here. If the defender can't reverse till the frame after, then theoretically they have to actually expose their hitbox to attack in order to throw.

    I actually wish we could just look at the code.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    Why is this thread still going on ?

    You reversal throw the same way you do any other reversal.
    Out of hitstun or blockstun.
    The exactly same way.
    And it is one frame.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=5764689&viewfull=1#post5764689 <--- If you don't trust raisin's knowledge i don't know what to say.
    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=3339848&viewfull=1#post3339848

    The info that was in the ST wiki was right.
    Fatboy was talking earlier about NKI explaining this issue.
    That is the reason i am saying the info that was posted in the ST wiki was right.
    Because NKI wrote that.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=148212&p=4752493&viewfull=1#post4752493

    But alas that should be edited as to conform with VF4's opinion because as well all know VF4 can never be wrong about anything and surely knows the game engine better than NKI or Raisin.

    From Raisin's post: "And you're right, if you correctly put a throw command in the reversal window and your opponent is throwable (not jumping or invincible, within your throw range, etc.) then you will beat their tick throw attempt and throw them first, every time."

    Read this again, trust the info because it's correct. It's the way it works. Start playing that way, or don't, I don't give a shit. But at least stop this nonsense discussion before it confuses anyone else.

    Also you guys might believe that it doesn't work this way, you just aren't good at countering throws. Try harder.

    Cloth, looking at CPS2 assembly really wont help you figure it out...

    Shari, the game does roll the dice if the throws are input during the same frame if both characters are neutral and not in stun. Like if you both walk up to one another attempting a walk in throw, and you both input the throw on the same frame, within range, the game tosses a coin.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    Shari, the game does roll the dice if the throws are input during the same frame if both characters are neutral and not in stun. Like if you both walk up to one another attempting a walk in throw, and you both input the throw on the same frame, within range, the game tosses a coin.

    That's not a response to a tickthrow and therefore not a reversal situation though.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    ^ if the reversal frame is after hit/blockstun that is exactly what happens with a reversal throw. two throws active the same time. which is why people are talking about 50/50s.

    People might find the discussion silly but I would like to see a well documented test. It shouldn't be too hard, the amount of block/hitstun is known. Now determine whether the reversal frame is after, or on the last frame of block/hitstun. And determine whether you can be thrown on the reversal frame. Those two pieces of data can put the nail in the coffin and it would serve as a addition to the already well documented features of the SF2 engine.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    That's not a response to a tickthrow and therefore not a reversal situation though.

    Totally agree. I was just pointing out the one situation where there actually is a 50/50 with throws.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    You guys know the "o" key isn't on the same line as the "l" key right?

    :lol:

    No one doubts special moves work, or that wakeup reversals work, or that you can hold forward and your character moves.

    However, there is doubt about reversals after stun, why should it work the same way as wakeup when the person isn't in the same state. contactable state vs. invuln state.




    Also, looking at the programming can actually tell you alot about what they were trying to do/achieve and why/how it works. The game is programmed to do something during stun and the changing of states.

    I'd like to look at the code. :sad:
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    No one doubts special moves work, or that wakeup reversals work, or that you can hold forward and your character moves.
    However, there is doubt about reversals after stun, why should it work the same way as wakeup when the person isn't in the same state. contactable state vs. invuln state.

    Read before you post.

    Anyway this is gonna be my final post in this thread i can't make any better argument than the post i made. (Unless VF4 says something else funny.)
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    ^ if the reversal frame is after hit/blockstun that is exactly what happens with a reversal throw. two throws active the same time. which is why people are talking about 50/50s.

    People might find the discussion silly but I would like to see a well documented test. It shouldn't be too hard, the amount of block/hitstun is known. Now determine whether the reversal frame is after, or on the last frame of block/hitstun. And determine whether you can be thrown on the reversal frame. Those two pieces of data can put the nail in the coffin and it would serve as a addition to the already well documented features of the SF2 engine.

    Agreed. I'd really like to understand exactly how the engine works. If somebody had a programmable controller, these scenarios would be easy to test. But until some test like that happens, I'm not convinced of anything.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Read before you post.

    Anyway this is gonna be my final post in this thread i can't make any better argument than the post i made. (Unless VF4 says something else funny.)

    I did, EA didn't say anything definitive since we are all still at disagreement.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 377
    I've seen lots of conflicting answers. I think we should just try our best to come up with 100% reproducible and accurate tests Rufus and anyone else with programmable controllers can do to better our understanding. I've been doing some testing myself although the results aren't really new. I used the start button in training mode to help me input throws at the same time to see who/what wins, but everything indicates 50-50 no matter what throws are used (also handy for testing throw ranges). Haven't tried supers yet though. Another thing I tried using this method was to see what priority normals/normal throws have when pressed simultaneously (like Gief will always punch airthrow when you input punch and kick at the same time). Punches in general seem to outprioritize kicks so far.

    The things that I'd like to see tested/verified are
    1) Extra frame of hit/blockstun for first hits (seems like a myth)
    2) Reversal punch lariat from knockdown vs meaty point blank sweep - to test the 1 frame wakeup invincibility (trades if invincible and loses if not)
    3) Frame advantage of knockdown hits on block. Some thread stated it varied based on get up timings of character (easy to see with frame by frame)
    4) Can normals be kara canceled into throws or block. I've heard the normal come out but still blocked a few times. Also seen some things about it. (try seeing if holding block one frame after the normal starts is different from doing it from block)
    5) Does SPD performed by the attacker on the defender's reversal frame still grab them if they don't reversal?
    6) VF4 mentioned something about 13 frames of unthrowable frames after knockdown, but only if they are in a neutral position (not attacking). - Is this 13 frame invulnerability lost by attacking?
    7) How many vulnerable frames of lag do you get when landing? Is it different if you use aerials or hit them?
    8) Do SPD's active frames cover landings when done before they land? It doesn't seem like they do from my experience unless I got hit by an aerial.

    Some of them aren't really related to anything from this thread but I figure I might as well ask them now.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I still find that hard to believe. If rising gives you an extra frame of invincibility where you can do a move, then you would get TWO frames to reversal throw/SRK/etc while rising and only ONE frame to reversal out of hit/block stun. That seems hard to buy. I suppose it's possible, but in play they both feel just as tight to land/miss. You'd think having double the frames would make wake-ups feel a lot easier.

    I definitely think that it's easier to reversal throw meaty attacks after knockdown or a reset than it is after hitstun/blockstun. The best example of this is Boxer and Ken's throw loops. When they cross under after a Headbutt or Knee Bash, I piano my throws as soon as I land, and I almost always throw them out of their meaty attack. Same thing after knockdown. Whenever I use Zangief or Hawk, I'm a whore for reversal 360s on wakeup, and they are so much easier to get than after blocking an attack. I don't think there are 2 invincible frames after knockdown/reset, just the 1st frame. But I mean, this issue is not really debatable because Akiba has captured this data on NKI's site, and he states that the 1st frame after knockdown is definitely invincible.

    Thanks for posting those links Shari. I think that settles the question for me. There is so much good stuff in the ST forums. One of these days, I'm gonna comb through the whole damn thing. = J Also, that hitstun/blockstun post by NKI would have been so helpful when I was compiling the hitstun/blockstun data. LOL
    ^ if the reversal frame is after hit/blockstun that is exactly what happens with a reversal throw. two throws active the same time. which is why people are talking about 50/50s.

    People might find the discussion silly but I would like to see a well documented test. It shouldn't be too hard, the amount of block/hitstun is known. Now determine whether the reversal frame is after, or on the last frame of block/hitstun. And determine whether you can be thrown on the reversal frame. Those two pieces of data can put the nail in the coffin and it would serve as a addition to the already well documented features of the SF2 engine.

    I think that without empirical evidence, the best way to settle this issue is based on the word of knowledgeable posters. I would take the word of NKI over almost anybody, and I'm sure most people would too, because he doesn't talk out of his ass. NKI usually tests almost everything he claims in a post, including things like pushback on hitstun being the same as blockstun, and if he hasn't tested it, it's usually a very well-informed guess. So based on this post by NKI:

    "You're in the same position either way: you have one frame to reverse, and if you miss that frame, it just comes down to who times it better."

    I think that what EA and fatboy have been saying is correct. There is one invincible frame during blockstun (the last one or the 11th frame after a Jab/Short), same as the 1st frame after knockdown. And the 1st frame after blockstun (the 12th) is not invincible. Therefore, the defender does have an advantage. I think the reason I thought there was no invincible frame was due to trying to reversal throw after blockstun ended and not before. But empirical evidence is always better than anything, and if it is ever proven that this is incorrect, then I will agree with it. But I think this is why NKI said that if you miss the reversal frame, it becomes 50-50. So yeah, I think the last frame of hitstun/blockstun can be cancelled with a reversal throw or reversal attack. But I don't think there are 2 invincible frames, only 1, same as the 1st frame after knockdowns and resets. Kinda makes sense that it is the same across the board IMO.

    But of course, without empirical evidence, we could all be wrong. = J

    The things that I'd like to see tested/verified are

    Those are some excellent questions Big O, and I'd like to see more empirical evidence to answer them too.
    3) Frame advantage of knockdown hits on block. Some thread stated it varied based on get up timings of character (easy to see with frame by frame)

    I think you're talking about the Hitstun and blockstun frame data thread, and I already made it clear that get up speed has nothing to do with blockstun for any attacks.
    5) Does SPD performed by the attacker on the defender's reversal frame still grab them if they don't reversal?

    I would say yes, because SPD has 11 active throw frames (on NKI's site), and if the defender does nothing, they will be thrown after the 1 invincible frame IMO.

    Edit: it's Coth, not Cloth. It's amazing to me how many people have got this wrong. Stop sliding your fingers across the keyboard and actually push the buttons! You would think game players would have better precision than non-gamers when it comes to typing. LOL
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    I would say yes, because SPD has 11 active throw frames (on NKI's site), and if the defender does nothing, they will be thrown after the 1 invincible frame IMO.

    Can you give me a link for that? I'd expect the number to be closer to 2.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Why does it feel like reversing a tick is much harder than reversing from a invuln state?
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Why does it feel like reversing a tick is much harder than reversing from a invuln state?
    More time to steel yourself? Just like knockdown is easier to reversal from than reset.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Are you saying that you can do a move (throw/SRK/etc) that actually cancels the last frame of block/hit stun.

    No, *All* I am saying in on the last frame of stun you can go directly into a special move, super, or throw.
    (Statement not aimed directly @ JV)

    I am not making any bolder claim than that. :pleased:

    Maybe the reversal comes directly out of the last frame of stun (which is how I understood it, but may not actually be the case) or it comes out of the first frame of a neutral state. It doesn't really matter as to the exact mechcanics to me, because however it works, it beats tick throws.
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