Tick throw question

13

Comments

  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    @ VF4.

    Well I am not going to agrue. I might very well be wrong. I am not the ST authority. I explained how I understood it to be. Though it wouldn't be the first time I was incorrect. Not that it really matters. It's hardly worth the amount of text that has gone into this arguement.

    Well whomever wins this debate, I'll gladly take my hat of to you. :karate:

    Good luck!
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Not from stun though. The special reversal frame for throws only exists after rising animations which is why T.Akiba purposefully expresses rising animations in half frame values and nothing else. Rising animations have other special properties as well which I've already posted above. Rising recovery is distinct and different from stun recovery.

    I still find that hard to believe. If rising gives you an extra frame of invincibility where you can do a move, then you would get TWO frames to reversal throw/SRK/etc while rising and only ONE frame to reversal out of hit/block stun. That seems hard to buy. I suppose it's possible, but in play they both feel just as tight to land/miss. You'd think having double the frames would make wake-ups feel a lot easier.

    I'm curious, are you aware of any videos that cover the rising properties slowed down and in-depth? If not, does anyone know if any of these emulators allow you to easily control the game frame by frame? I tried firing up FBA, but you can only slow it down 50% and I couldn't really control both players well enough.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Why is this thread still going on ?

    You reversal throw the same way you do any other reversal.
    Out of hitstun or blockstun.
    The exactly same way.
    And it is one frame.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=5764689&viewfull=1#post5764689 <--- If you don't trust raisin's knowledge i don't know what to say.
    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=3339848&viewfull=1#post3339848

    The info that was in the ST wiki was right.
    Fatboy was talking earlier about NKI explaining this issue.
    That is the reason i am saying the info that was posted in the ST wiki was right.
    Because NKI wrote that.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=148212&p=4752493&viewfull=1#post4752493

    But alas that should be edited as to conform with VF4's opinion because as well all know VF4 can never be wrong about anything and surely knows the game engine better than NKI or Raisin.

    From Raisin's post: "And you're right, if you correctly put a throw command in the reversal window and your opponent is throwable (not jumping or invincible, within your throw range, etc.) then you will beat their tick throw attempt and throw them first, every time."
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Shari it's not the same. If Fatboy is right and there is a special dedicated reversal frame before leaving hit/blockstun then this means a throw executed on that frame will always beat a perfect tickthrow.

    If VF4, Blitzfu and myself are right it means that countering a perfect tickthrow with your own has a max success rate of 50%.

    I'd like to believe in what Fatboy, Nki and Raison are saying, it would make for a better throw system imo. But I find it far fetched that you can cancel out of the last frame of block/hitstun with a reversal.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Shari it's not the same. If Fatboy is right and there is a special dedicated reversal frame before leaving hit/blockstun then this means a throw executed on that frame will always beat a perfect tickthrow.

    Fatboy, NKI and Raisin does say that.
    That is what they are saying.

    This is right.

    People can make all the claims they want about there being some 50/50 chance but until they actually show some solid evidence for it other than "Has been known for over 15 years" or similar statements there is no argument here.

    It is not far fetched to believe this but it is what has been taught to anyone learning ST for years.
    It is common knowledge.
    When i started playing ST that is what i was told and it has worked for me ever since.
    This thread is actually the first time i have ever heard of anyone thinking there is a 50/50 chance.
    And if people want to make such a claim i suggest they find some evidence for it.

    Burden of proof.
    Until that happens there is no argument.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I can think of a potential setup.

    A meaty after knockdown, and then a normal timed after the meaty (attacker with + frame adv) to hit on the last frame of stun, and then another test on the frame after the last frame of stun.

    If the last frame of stun is a reversal frame like knockdown reversal frame, then it the attacker should be throwable here. If the defender can't reverse till the frame after, then theoretically they have to actually expose their hitbox to attack in order to throw.

    I actually wish we could just look at the code.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    Why is this thread still going on ?

    You reversal throw the same way you do any other reversal.
    Out of hitstun or blockstun.
    The exactly same way.
    And it is one frame.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=5764689&viewfull=1#post5764689 <--- If you don't trust raisin's knowledge i don't know what to say.
    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=119095&p=3339848&viewfull=1#post3339848

    The info that was in the ST wiki was right.
    Fatboy was talking earlier about NKI explaining this issue.
    That is the reason i am saying the info that was posted in the ST wiki was right.
    Because NKI wrote that.

    http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=148212&p=4752493&viewfull=1#post4752493

    But alas that should be edited as to conform with VF4's opinion because as well all know VF4 can never be wrong about anything and surely knows the game engine better than NKI or Raisin.

    From Raisin's post: "And you're right, if you correctly put a throw command in the reversal window and your opponent is throwable (not jumping or invincible, within your throw range, etc.) then you will beat their tick throw attempt and throw them first, every time."

    Read this again, trust the info because it's correct. It's the way it works. Start playing that way, or don't, I don't give a shit. But at least stop this nonsense discussion before it confuses anyone else.

    Also you guys might believe that it doesn't work this way, you just aren't good at countering throws. Try harder.

    Cloth, looking at CPS2 assembly really wont help you figure it out...

    Shari, the game does roll the dice if the throws are input during the same frame if both characters are neutral and not in stun. Like if you both walk up to one another attempting a walk in throw, and you both input the throw on the same frame, within range, the game tosses a coin.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Shari, the game does roll the dice if the throws are input during the same frame if both characters are neutral and not in stun. Like if you both walk up to one another attempting a walk in throw, and you both input the throw on the same frame, within range, the game tosses a coin.

    That's not a response to a tickthrow and therefore not a reversal situation though.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    ^ if the reversal frame is after hit/blockstun that is exactly what happens with a reversal throw. two throws active the same time. which is why people are talking about 50/50s.

    People might find the discussion silly but I would like to see a well documented test. It shouldn't be too hard, the amount of block/hitstun is known. Now determine whether the reversal frame is after, or on the last frame of block/hitstun. And determine whether you can be thrown on the reversal frame. Those two pieces of data can put the nail in the coffin and it would serve as a addition to the already well documented features of the SF2 engine.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    That's not a response to a tickthrow and therefore not a reversal situation though.

    Totally agree. I was just pointing out the one situation where there actually is a 50/50 with throws.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    You guys know the "o" key isn't on the same line as the "l" key right?

    :lol:

    No one doubts special moves work, or that wakeup reversals work, or that you can hold forward and your character moves.

    However, there is doubt about reversals after stun, why should it work the same way as wakeup when the person isn't in the same state. contactable state vs. invuln state.




    Also, looking at the programming can actually tell you alot about what they were trying to do/achieve and why/how it works. The game is programmed to do something during stun and the changing of states.

    I'd like to look at the code. :sad:
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    No one doubts special moves work, or that wakeup reversals work, or that you can hold forward and your character moves.
    However, there is doubt about reversals after stun, why should it work the same way as wakeup when the person isn't in the same state. contactable state vs. invuln state.

    Read before you post.

    Anyway this is gonna be my final post in this thread i can't make any better argument than the post i made. (Unless VF4 says something else funny.)
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    ^ if the reversal frame is after hit/blockstun that is exactly what happens with a reversal throw. two throws active the same time. which is why people are talking about 50/50s.

    People might find the discussion silly but I would like to see a well documented test. It shouldn't be too hard, the amount of block/hitstun is known. Now determine whether the reversal frame is after, or on the last frame of block/hitstun. And determine whether you can be thrown on the reversal frame. Those two pieces of data can put the nail in the coffin and it would serve as a addition to the already well documented features of the SF2 engine.

    Agreed. I'd really like to understand exactly how the engine works. If somebody had a programmable controller, these scenarios would be easy to test. But until some test like that happens, I'm not convinced of anything.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Read before you post.

    Anyway this is gonna be my final post in this thread i can't make any better argument than the post i made. (Unless VF4 says something else funny.)

    I did, EA didn't say anything definitive since we are all still at disagreement.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    I've seen lots of conflicting answers. I think we should just try our best to come up with 100% reproducible and accurate tests Rufus and anyone else with programmable controllers can do to better our understanding. I've been doing some testing myself although the results aren't really new. I used the start button in training mode to help me input throws at the same time to see who/what wins, but everything indicates 50-50 no matter what throws are used (also handy for testing throw ranges). Haven't tried supers yet though. Another thing I tried using this method was to see what priority normals/normal throws have when pressed simultaneously (like Gief will always punch airthrow when you input punch and kick at the same time). Punches in general seem to outprioritize kicks so far.

    The things that I'd like to see tested/verified are
    1) Extra frame of hit/blockstun for first hits (seems like a myth)
    2) Reversal punch lariat from knockdown vs meaty point blank sweep - to test the 1 frame wakeup invincibility (trades if invincible and loses if not)
    3) Frame advantage of knockdown hits on block. Some thread stated it varied based on get up timings of character (easy to see with frame by frame)
    4) Can normals be kara canceled into throws or block. I've heard the normal come out but still blocked a few times. Also seen some things about it. (try seeing if holding block one frame after the normal starts is different from doing it from block)
    5) Does SPD performed by the attacker on the defender's reversal frame still grab them if they don't reversal?
    6) VF4 mentioned something about 13 frames of unthrowable frames after knockdown, but only if they are in a neutral position (not attacking). - Is this 13 frame invulnerability lost by attacking?
    7) How many vulnerable frames of lag do you get when landing? Is it different if you use aerials or hit them?
    8) Do SPD's active frames cover landings when done before they land? It doesn't seem like they do from my experience unless I got hit by an aerial.

    Some of them aren't really related to anything from this thread but I figure I might as well ask them now.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I still find that hard to believe. If rising gives you an extra frame of invincibility where you can do a move, then you would get TWO frames to reversal throw/SRK/etc while rising and only ONE frame to reversal out of hit/block stun. That seems hard to buy. I suppose it's possible, but in play they both feel just as tight to land/miss. You'd think having double the frames would make wake-ups feel a lot easier.

    I definitely think that it's easier to reversal throw meaty attacks after knockdown or a reset than it is after hitstun/blockstun. The best example of this is Boxer and Ken's throw loops. When they cross under after a Headbutt or Knee Bash, I piano my throws as soon as I land, and I almost always throw them out of their meaty attack. Same thing after knockdown. Whenever I use Zangief or Hawk, I'm a whore for reversal 360s on wakeup, and they are so much easier to get than after blocking an attack. I don't think there are 2 invincible frames after knockdown/reset, just the 1st frame. But I mean, this issue is not really debatable because Akiba has captured this data on NKI's site, and he states that the 1st frame after knockdown is definitely invincible.

    Thanks for posting those links Shari. I think that settles the question for me. There is so much good stuff in the ST forums. One of these days, I'm gonna comb through the whole damn thing. = J Also, that hitstun/blockstun post by NKI would have been so helpful when I was compiling the hitstun/blockstun data. LOL
    ^ if the reversal frame is after hit/blockstun that is exactly what happens with a reversal throw. two throws active the same time. which is why people are talking about 50/50s.

    People might find the discussion silly but I would like to see a well documented test. It shouldn't be too hard, the amount of block/hitstun is known. Now determine whether the reversal frame is after, or on the last frame of block/hitstun. And determine whether you can be thrown on the reversal frame. Those two pieces of data can put the nail in the coffin and it would serve as a addition to the already well documented features of the SF2 engine.

    I think that without empirical evidence, the best way to settle this issue is based on the word of knowledgeable posters. I would take the word of NKI over almost anybody, and I'm sure most people would too, because he doesn't talk out of his ass. NKI usually tests almost everything he claims in a post, including things like pushback on hitstun being the same as blockstun, and if he hasn't tested it, it's usually a very well-informed guess. So based on this post by NKI:

    "You're in the same position either way: you have one frame to reverse, and if you miss that frame, it just comes down to who times it better."

    I think that what EA and fatboy have been saying is correct. There is one invincible frame during blockstun (the last one or the 11th frame after a Jab/Short), same as the 1st frame after knockdown. And the 1st frame after blockstun (the 12th) is not invincible. Therefore, the defender does have an advantage. I think the reason I thought there was no invincible frame was due to trying to reversal throw after blockstun ended and not before. But empirical evidence is always better than anything, and if it is ever proven that this is incorrect, then I will agree with it. But I think this is why NKI said that if you miss the reversal frame, it becomes 50-50. So yeah, I think the last frame of hitstun/blockstun can be cancelled with a reversal throw or reversal attack. But I don't think there are 2 invincible frames, only 1, same as the 1st frame after knockdowns and resets. Kinda makes sense that it is the same across the board IMO.

    But of course, without empirical evidence, we could all be wrong. = J

    The things that I'd like to see tested/verified are

    Those are some excellent questions Big O, and I'd like to see more empirical evidence to answer them too.
    3) Frame advantage of knockdown hits on block. Some thread stated it varied based on get up timings of character (easy to see with frame by frame)

    I think you're talking about the Hitstun and blockstun frame data thread, and I already made it clear that get up speed has nothing to do with blockstun for any attacks.
    5) Does SPD performed by the attacker on the defender's reversal frame still grab them if they don't reversal?

    I would say yes, because SPD has 11 active throw frames (on NKI's site), and if the defender does nothing, they will be thrown after the 1 invincible frame IMO.

    Edit: it's Coth, not Cloth. It's amazing to me how many people have got this wrong. Stop sliding your fingers across the keyboard and actually push the buttons! You would think game players would have better precision than non-gamers when it comes to typing. LOL
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    I would say yes, because SPD has 11 active throw frames (on NKI's site), and if the defender does nothing, they will be thrown after the 1 invincible frame IMO.

    Can you give me a link for that? I'd expect the number to be closer to 2.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Why does it feel like reversing a tick is much harder than reversing from a invuln state?
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Why does it feel like reversing a tick is much harder than reversing from a invuln state?
    More time to steel yourself? Just like knockdown is easier to reversal from than reset.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Are you saying that you can do a move (throw/SRK/etc) that actually cancels the last frame of block/hit stun.

    No, *All* I am saying in on the last frame of stun you can go directly into a special move, super, or throw.
    (Statement not aimed directly @ JV)

    I am not making any bolder claim than that. :pleased:

    Maybe the reversal comes directly out of the last frame of stun (which is how I understood it, but may not actually be the case) or it comes out of the first frame of a neutral state. It doesn't really matter as to the exact mechcanics to me, because however it works, it beats tick throws.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    More time to steel yourself? Just like knockdown is easier to reversal from than reset.

    How long do most knockdowns last?
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    How long do most knockdowns last?
    Depends a bit on the knockdown, but typically a second or more if you include the air time and hit freeze.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    1) Extra frame of hit/blockstun for first hits (seems like a myth)
    It has been proved that frame advantage is longer for the first attack of a sequence. The exact nature of why it happens has not been determined, though.

    To test this yourself, pick Ryu and cancel a cr.short into a hadouken. It will form a combination. Now try it after a jump attack, cr.strong, rush punch, whatever: it will never combo.
    6) VF4 mentioned something about 13 frames of unthrowable frames after knockdown, but only if they are in a neutral position (not attacking). - Is this 13 frame invulnerability lost by attacking?
    No, that is why Honda should always counter a safe jump from Gief with the reversal headbutt right after he gets up, even though it will not knock him down, but only push him back. Headbutts are not invulnerable, thus he can get thrown out of them if he decides to counter the SPD itself with it. Ryu can also not be thrown out of wake-up shoryuken, but can get SPDed, knee bashed or whatever in other situations, as long as the enemy is in range. Knee bash and running bear grab on SRKs are guaranteed "WTF???" moments in ST.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Yeah my question is that why is tic throwing so good.

    If it is true that you should be able to reversal 100% of the time, or if you are slow get a 50/50, why can I tic someone over and over, successfully?
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    If it is true that you should be able to reversal 100% of the time, or if you are slow get a 50/50, why can I tic someone over and over, successfully?

    As the tic thrower, you've got control over the timing, so you're at a huge execution advantage.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Can you give me a link for that? I'd expect the number to be closer to 2.

    SPD data by Akiba, translated by NKI:

    Jab:?0?5?5?22
    Strong:?0?5?5?24
    Fierce:?0?5?5?26

    SPD data in YBH, scans by Geo:

    Jab: 11 21
    Strong: 11 23
    Fierce: 11 25

    Akiba has 10 frames, YBH has 11 frames.
    Headbutts are not invulnerable, thus he can get thrown out of them if he decides to counter the SPD itself with it. Ryu can also not be thrown out of wake-up shoryuken, but can get SPDed, knee bashed or whatever in other situations, as long as the enemy is in range.

    All Torpedoes are invincible at startup, however, Zangief's SPD range is greater than the Torpedo's hitboxes before it's airborne. Meaning, Zangief can start the SPD outside the Torpedo's initial hit range (about the same range as max cr Jab range) and throw Honda at the moment when his invincibility runs out, but before he's airborne. This way Zangief will never get hit.

    IDK if a wakeup reversal Shoryuken can be SPD'd or thrown. Ryu hits on the 5th frame and is throwable on the 9th and 10th frame, but this is less than the 13 frames of throw invincibility. But of course, a reversal Shoryuken after blockstun is not guaranteed throw invincibility, so that's why it can be thrown then. Although this would be a good test to see if 13 frames of throw invincibility is negated if an attack is executed. Just have Zangief stand just outside Shoryuken range, Ryu executes a wakeup reversal, and Zangief starts the SPD after the Shoryuken has started. His 10 active throw frames should cover the Shoryuken's 2 frame throw-vulnerable window. If Ryu or Ken gets thrown, then the 13 frames is negated if a Special attack is performed after wakeup. Also would be good to know if this includes all attacks or only Special attacks, and maybe doesn't include Normal attacks, and also would be good to know if jumping would negate this too.
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    I don't think there are 2 invincible frames after knockdown/reset, just the 1st frame. But I mean, this issue is not really debatable because Akiba has captured this data on NKI's site, and he states that the 1st frame after knockdown is definitely invincible.

    Ya, I've read the Akiba stuff on NKI's site. But the details are not entirely clear to me. For sake of argument, let's say there's no way he could be wrong and we take Akiba's word as gospel. Given that, it sounds like there's one frame at the end of standing up where you are invincible. But can you do a reversal move on that frame (SRK/throw)? If so, then you definitely have two frames to reversal SRK. Also, if that is the case, doing the throw on the invincible frame should work. But will doing a throw on the first frame you're vulnerable beat a meaty? So, even if we don't question the source of the info, I'd still like to understand all of the details about how this works.
    You're in the same position either way: you have one frame to reverse, and if you miss that frame, it just comes down to who times it better.
    But empirical evidence is always better than anything, and if it is ever proven that this is incorrect, then I will agree with it. But I think this is why NKI said that if you miss the reversal frame, it becomes 50-50. So yeah, I think the last frame of hitstun/blockstun can be cancelled with a reversal throw or reversal attack.

    I interpret NKI's post another way. To me, it sounds like he's saying that if you reversal SRK or whatever on the first frame after stun, which is not invulnerable, then you win. But, if you mis-time it and the other guy also mis-times his move, then it comes down to who did their move closer to the first frame out of stun.

    Maybe the reversal comes directly out of the last frame of stun (which is how I understood it, but may not actually be the case) or it comes out of the first frame of a neutral state. It doesn't really matter as to the exact mechcanics to me, because however it works, it beats tick throws.

    Ya, honestly from a player perspective I don't think any of this stuff matters much. We know we can do reversals and we know how to get them to work. I don't expect finding the answers to these questions to improve my play or anything. I'm more just curious to know exactly how the SF engine works. Given that, I'd like to find hard solid answers to these because the soft answers still leave a small bit of doubt in my head.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    But can you do a reversal move on that frame (SRK/throw)? If so, then you definitely have two frames to reversal SRK.

    In my opinion, if you do a reversal Shoryuken on the 1st frame after wakeup, that frame will be invincible due to the Shoryuken's 1st frame being invincible. So the Shoryuken's 1st frame will replace the wakeup's 1st frame of invincibility IMO. However, I think if you do a reveral Hadoken instead, the 1st frame will still be invincible. If however, you do a Shoryuken on the 2nd frame after wakeup (which will not be a reversal IMO, cuz it's not on the 1st frame), then yes, you could say that there are 2 invincible frames, the 1st one after wakeup followed by the Shoryuken's 1st frame. But obviously if you do a Hadoken on the 2nd frame, I don't think the 2nd frame will be invincible. So really, there is only 1 invincible frame: the 1st one after wakeup.
    But will doing a throw on the first frame you're vulnerable beat a meaty?

    Yes, I think so. If the 1st frame after wakeup is invincible, then that's a guaranteed reversal throw on that frame. The 2nd frame that is not invincible will still throw meaties, because throws have zero startup, and you will go from invincible to immediate throw IMO.

    A similar situation IMO would be: if both characters are standing next to each other at point blank range, and player A does a neutral normal attack, say a st Strong, and player B does a throw on the 1st frame of the st Strong's active hitting frames, let's say the 4th frame for example (IDK for sure). In that case, I think the throw will beat the st Strong's 1st hitting frame IMO.

    If however, the opponent was trying to throw you after wakeup, without a tick, say a SPD started on the last frame of wakeup, your reversal throw will still beat it cuz of the 13 frames of throw-invincibility after wakeup IMO.
    I interpret NKI's post another way. To me, it sounds like he's saying that if you reversal SRK or whatever on the first frame after stun, which is not invulnerable, then you win. But, if you mis-time it and the other guy also mis-times his move, then it comes down to who did their move closer to the first frame out of stun.

    I agree that if you reversal Shoryuken on the 1st frame after blockstun (or any other attack that is invincible-on-startup), you will beat the tick throw. But I disagree that a reversal throw will beat the opponent's throw. If both throws are done on the 1st frame after blockstun, why should this frame be throw-invincible, especially considering it doesn't have throw invincibility like the 1st 13 frames after wakeup? I think that it will be 50-50 in that case. If NKI and others are right tho, the last frame of blockstun is invincible, so a reversal throw on that frame will beat a tick throw on the same frame IMO.

    The question I'd like to answer tho is: are there 2 reversal frames after blockstun? The last one during blockstun, and the 1st one after blockstun, or just the last one, or just the 1st one after? By "reversal" I mean getting the "reversal attack" message.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    A similar situation IMO would be: if both characters are standing next to each other at point blank range, and player A does a neutral normal attack, say a st Strong, and player B does a throw on the 1st frame of the st Strong's active hitting frames, let's say the 4th frame for example (IDK for sure). In that case, I think the throw will beat the st Strong's 1st hitting frame IMO.
    If you hold back and attack at the same time you should always block. I don't know what the exact rules are, but if you attack and block on the same frame, so you hold back and attack, you'll block if you are attacked on the frame that you try to attack on. This is why you can go for a reversal throw against meaty ground attacks that hit high. You must be standing to throw, so you hold back and hit throw, if you get a throw then you get it, if you don't then you block. The way that opponents can beat this is to attack with crouching meaty ground normals, because you have to stand to throw (unless you are Zangief, Honda, T.Hawk) you can't crouch to protect against low hitting attacks. I'm not sure what happens if you press forward and an attack on the same frame where an attack overlaps your hit box. I'd guess that you'd probably get it hit based on the fact that simultaneously attacking and blocking gives priority to a block.

    If Blanka's up ball can be thrown on the first frame then that is another example where a red hit box beats a throw. Why? Because a reversal up ball, as long as it hits on the first frame according to the Wiki at least, beat throw attempts. The Wiki says that a reversal up ball, a first frame hitting move, will get thrown if the first frame isn't close enough to hit the opponent.
    The question I'd like to answer tho is: are there 2 reversal frames after blockstun? The last one during blockstun, and the 1st one after blockstun, or just the last one, or just the 1st one after? By "reversal" I mean getting the "reversal attack" message.
    There is only one frame off of stun where you can get a reversal message and 1000 points. That is the frame after stun where you would normally return to neutral unless you reverse. From stun you go directly to neutral without any frames in-between that have special properties which is already covered in NKI's video.

    NKI's video by the way lists SPD's as having 11 active frames as well which is what the YBH has.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    I just wanted to let you guys know that supers also are 50-50 when done on the same frame as any other throw. I expected this, but it is still disappointing that super throws can be beat by normal throws. I tested it using the pause method.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    I had someone from TAS Videos help me set up an EMU and ROM so that I could test throw coming out of stun.

    Here is the test I used: two Dictator players walking into each other, player 1 does a close standing jab and it hits player 2, player 1 continues walking into player 2 for the entire duration of stun to ensure that they are within throw range once player 2 comes out of stun. On the last frame of stun, player 2 cannot reverse or attack, if you input an attack four frames before that frame (because CPSII takes inputs four frames earlier than they happen on screen) nothing will come out because you've entered the command to come out while you are still in stun. You cannot cancel the last frame of stun. It is not possible. If you enter the throw command for player 2, four frames before he goes to neutral from stun, then he will throw on the first frame out of stun. On the last frame of stun you are not throwable. On the first frame out of stun you are throwable. If both players throw on the first frame out of stun then it is 50/50 just as I said on the first page of this thread.

    In order to ensure that both players threw on the same frame I mapped their throw inputs (forward+medium punch) all to the same button (so four inputs to one button). When player 1 threw his opponent on the first frame out of stun, the reversal frame for player 2, and player 2 also threw on that frame, it was 50/50 who would get a throw and who would tech a throw. Normal throw from either player had no special advantage either way. I ran this test 50 times I got 23-27 for who got the throw and who didn't.

    Other notes, when two people normal throw each other at the same time, one person gets a throw, but the other gets a throw tech. So you can tech a normal throw on the same frame that you get thrown. I'm not sure if you hear a whiffed normal come out for the losing person in that exchange, as the custom EMU I was using had the sound disabled by default.

    So yes. There are not two reversal frames out of stun. Reversal normal throws against perfect tick normal throws are 50/50. Shari is an idiot.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Reversal normal throws against perfect tick normal throws are 50/50. Shari/NKI/Raisin are idiots.

    Clearly we are.
    I have absolute confidence in your testing being 100% correct despite people bringing up just how hard this is to test.
    I am sure you have solved that issue on your own trough your godlike intellect.
    Not to mention that something which has been taken for granted as fact due to pure experience by most players is clearly wrong.


    I applaud your genius.


    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Why you think I had TAS videos help me with this test? Those guys know more about programmable inputs than anyone else. And NKI and Raisin aren't 100% right all of the time. Top players who made the ST Wiki filled it with wrong information. And ST has evolved over the years. Before 2008 if you had said "was a walking 720 possible?" I would have said no. But now we have seen walking 720s and kara 720s in ST with T.Hawk. Things change, new information is found, the game evolves.

    What's funny is that you, without knowing what you were talking about, with no evidence, wildly claimed...
    Reversal throw will always win if your throw is in range of the attacker.
    ...which is wrong if you test it properly. I didn't use macros at all to test it. I had someone from TAS walk me through everything frame by frame which was extremely easy to do.

    I can't make it any more clear.

    There is only one frame out of stun where you can reversal throw. On that frame you are able to be thrown also. If someone ticks you and throws you on that frame, and you perform a reversal throw on that frame, it is 50/50. I tested this out 50 times. I also tried throwing on the last frame of stun and the person in stun couldn't perform anything on that frame.

    If you don't want to admit that you were wrong and accept the correct information then that is fine. But I find it hilarious that you said you were done in this thread yet continue to spread wrong information in a stubborn attempt to avoid admitting you were wrong.

    I don't honestly care if I'm wrong. Blitzfu, Maj, Sirlin, and so on have corrected me or disagreed with me on things before. Some people have said in PMs "you put something in the Wiki but I'm not sure if it's correct" so I double check it and correct it if it need it. The important thing is to give out the right information for the players which is why I've been editing the ST Wiki.

    You only seem to care about your ego. This isn't about you dude, this is about getting the right information. If you think that you can come up with a better test than the experts from TAS then go ahead. But until then, put up, or shut up. You were wrong. I don't care if you admit it. But stay out of this thread if you all you are going to do is poison the community with wrong information.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    But I find it hilarious that you said you were done in this thread yet continue to spread wrong information in a stubborn attempt to avoid admitting you were wrong.

    Actually what i said was:
    Shari wrote:
    Anyway this is gonna be my final post in this thread i can't make any better argument than the post i made. (Unless VF4 says something else funny.)

    You only seem to care about your ego. This isn't about you dude this is about getting the right information. If you think that you can come up with a better test than the experts from TAS then go ahead. But until then, put up, or shut up. You were wrong. I don't care if you admit it. But stay out of this thread if you all you are going to do is poison the community with wrong information.

    Oh the irony of this.

    So beautiful.

    How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Let me answer the questions that I've seen brought up, all of which I verified by frame-by-frame testing on Kawaks:

    *When is the reversal frame?

    The reversal frame is the first frame after recovery. Note that there are 4 frames of input lag on any version of ST so you actually have to finish the motion 4 frames early in order for the reversal to come out on the first active frame. Or in other words, the attack must be timed so that after the completion of the motion, 4 frames afterward will be the first frame after recovery. That produces a reversal.

    *Does a reversal throw after stun beat out a normal throw?

    Yes, on the very first frame of recovery, the -waking- character has a 100% chance of throwing a -standing- character in range via a reversal throw. The -waking- character also has a 100% chance of throwing a -standing- character who's also trying to throw at the first active frame; this means the -waking- character has priority on throws on the reversal frame. Also, on the very first frame of recovery after stun, even if the -waking- character doesn't reversal, the -standing- opponent only has a 50% chance of throwing the -waking- character anyway (the other 50% of the time, the -standing- character gets a normal instead).

    So essentially, Shari is correct: in 100% of the time, a reversal throw will beat out a normal throw. This is a special frame where this case occurs. On the frame after the reversal frame, if both character throw, the situation becomes 50/50 again. You can test by frame for yourself like I did with a Ryu mirror: have P1 LP and then on the 8th of 11 recovery frames start the throw motion for either/both sides and you'll see what I'm saying in action.

    *1) Extra frame of hit/blockstun for first hits (seems like a myth)

    There is no extra frame. But Maj is indeed correct when he says on T0, there are 2 reversal frames from a wakeup but only 1 reversal frame from stun.

    *2) Reversal punch lariat from knockdown vs meaty point blank sweep - to test the 1 frame wakeup invincibility (trades if invincible and loses if not)

    The point-blank meaty loses to a reversal punch lariat.

    *3) Frame advantage of knockdown hits on block. Some thread stated it varied based on get up timings of character (easy to see with frame by frame)

    You can only hit an opponent after they've fully risen. Also, for each and every character, there is a constant 7 vulnerable landing frames after a jump. The frame advantage for all blocked meaties on wakeup is identical for each character; it only depends on the timing of your meaty (as early as possible for ground meaties, as late as possible for air meaties).

    *4) Can normals be kara canceled into throws or block. I've heard the normal come out but still blocked a few times. Also seen some things about it. (try seeing if holding block one frame after the normal starts is different from doing it from block)

    No, you can only kara cancel normals to specials and supers. You can't kara to movement, throws, blocks, special normals, or other normals.

    *5) Does SPD performed by the attacker on the defender's reversal frame still grab them if they don't reversal?

    Yes, if the waking character doesn't reversal, that frame is forfeited and they're grabbed straight from stun with not a single active frame in between.

    *6) VF4 mentioned something about 13 frames of unthrowable frames after knockdown, but only if they are in a neutral position (not attacking). - Is this 13 frame invulnerability lost by attacking?

    No, 13 frames are unthrowable regardless of what the character waking up does.

    *7) How many vulnerable frames of lag do you get when landing? Is it different if you use aerials or hit them?

    A constant 7 landing frames for every character. It doesn't matter whether you jump straight up, forward/backward, or use any normal attack. However, special moves (like air hurricane kicks) can affect the landing frames.

    *8) Do SPD's active frames cover landings when done before they land? It doesn't seem like they do from my experience unless I got hit by an aerial.

    Yes, if the SPD is already in its 11 active frames and the opponent lands from the air into the SPD hitbox, then they'll be grabbed the moment they enter the first of 7 landing frames.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Also, for each and every character, there is a constant 7 vulnerable landing frames after a jump. The frame advantage for all blocked meaties on wakeup is identical for each character; it only depends on the timing of your meaty (as early as possible for ground meaties, as late as possible for air meaties).

    Can you elaborate on this? It seems like what you're saying would imply, for example, that it's impossible to safe-jump.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Ah, good catch, 6 of those 7 landing frames can be canceled by any action, including any attack or blocking. The 1st landing frame can't be canceled and is the reason why there's no tripguard after a jump.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Thank you Ganelon.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    Thanks for answering my questions so thoroughly Ganelon. I'm just a bit confused on two things.

    1) I just want to be absolutely clear on the whole wakeup invincibility thing. The thing that confuses me on this point is that you said punch lariat beats point blank meaties. If the meaty you tried was a sweep, then this would imply there are 2 frames of wakeup invulnerability (one during lariat startup and another during the active hitbox which prevents it from trading). What was the meaty you tried? Also, Blanka's upballs should beat (not trade) deep crossups on wakeup due to the wakeup invincibility frame right?

    2) Since there is only one reversal frame from hit/blockstun, is there a chance that the game (on default speed) will skip that reversal frame?
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Reversal normal throws against perfect tick normal throws are 50/50.
    *Does a reversal throw after stun beat out a normal throw?

    Yes, on the very first frame of recovery, the -waking- character has a 100% chance of throwing a -standing- character in range via a reversal throw.

    So uh, we have conflicting results here.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
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