Tick throw question

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Comments

  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    1. That was a big mistake on my part: the point-blank meaty -beats- the reversal punch lariat 100% of the time. I tried meaty c.HK for Ryu, Sagat, Zangief, and dictator. Thanks for catching that; this oversight would probably have been avoided if I had further explained the reasoning behind the test, which was to see whether the reversal frame had hit invincibility. Blanka's reversal upball trades with meaties because the reversal frame is just the first frame of the special move and adopts the special move's first frame. However, there's something unique about the reversal throw that makes it invincible on the first frame. It grabs straight through any meaties (normals, specials, supers, etc.) as long as the opponent is in range. That's why it also beats perfectly timed tick throws.
    2. Not that I can see. I was always able to successfully perform Ryu's reversal dp.
  • je110je110 Dantastic Joined: Posts: 385
    The problem is you watch high level matches, where guys like afrolegends tic you with balrog, it seems he is overwhelmingly at advantage, and even top guys can't get out.

    I understand reversals are hard sure, but they do get it a lot, so I dunno!

    One reason that it may seem like the aggressor is at an overwhelming advantage is because the aggressor is controlling the pace. He will tend to have a better feel for when that opponent is going to come out of block/hit stun, because he is the one controlling that rhythm. Certainly an experienced player can also get a good feel for it as well, but if an aggressor keeps you off balance, a 50/50 where you're not on top of the timing and he is, is going to feel much more like an 80/20.

    This is assuming a 50/50 situation is there to begin with, obviously.
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    Thanks again Ganelon for clearing things up.

    Now we just need VF4 to come in and try to figure out why his tests results are different from Rufus and Ganelon's...
  • StaplesStaples OH HAI! Joined: Posts: 62
    So uh, we have conflicting results here.

    This ^

    It sure doesn't look like anything is solved yet.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    It's been solved, unless someone wants to end up looking like a fool forcing me to upload video results. It's difficult to debate frame-by-frame testing, esp. since you can test it yourself if you really cared. Everyone makes mistakes; no big deal as long as they're willing to learn from them.
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Ganelon, any chance you could give a quick breakdown of how to do frame by frame testing? I've been wanting to know how that works for awhile now, just so I can test out various things I run into.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Sure, use Kawaks and HSF2 (Asian is the only only one available) on T0 (the only setting without in-game frameskip; ST has in-game frameskip on all speed settings). Read the frames threads and YSH to understand appropriate input lag, startup, active frames, hitstun/blockstun, recovery, etc. or just use trial and error. Enter your command one frame per command: pause, hold down key, go to next frame, hold down next key, go to next frame, repeat until you finish the motion, and go to next frame continuously until you see the action come out.

    To get a reversal, simply start entering after knockdown/stun and you'll see the message if you started in the right window ended it 4 frames before recovery. Try to make sense of the YSH numbers and the special frame numbers first and you'll see how they correspond to each frame of the game.
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Thanks for the info. One question though, what's YSH? Yoga Book Hyper?
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Ha, whoops, YSH is me thinking of Yoga Book Hyper mixed with Yoga Strike Backers. Yeah, I meant "YBH."
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    FWIW the testing I did was with a homebrew 2-stick programmable set-up, an AVDC-100 which allows frame-by-frame recording, and HDR set to turbo 0 on an Xbox 360.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • trinifella1trinifella1 Joined: Posts: 326
    very interesting thread
    "Foolish Worm"
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    interesting ganelon...
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,220
    A question of my own...

    I'm T-Hawk, I do the following: j. jab > cr. jab > tick Typhoon

    How is it that someone like Bison can jump out? I've had some players even throw me right after the jab. Help?
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Your tick isn't frame-tight and you're positioned too close.
  • CzarFighterCzarFighter Joined: Posts: 161
    It can be hard to grab M Bison online because of how tight you have to be with the grab and because online can visually mess you up with lag.
  • evoanonevoanon FP Black Inside Joined: Posts: 431
    It can be hard to grab M Bison online because of how tight you have to be with the grab and because online can visually mess you up with lag.

    I can do tick throws pretty tightly/accurately. There are people online who have funny lag ALL the time and can jump straight out of 99% of my tick attempts. With these people I just give up and do regular attacks for the rest of the match :rock:
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    It can be hard to grab M Bison online because of how tight you have to be with the grab and because online can visually mess you up with lag.

    Bison also has the fastest jump start-up.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    Read my blog as to how lag affects things like HDR and tick throws. Long story short is your opponent doesn't receive your button input until X amount of frames have passed since you input it. X is defined as ping in ms / 16 = number of frames.

    Example, 2 players have 160 ping. 160/16=10 frames from the time you hit the button until the opponent gets it.

    Ah, good catch, 6 of those 7 landing frames can be canceled by any action, including any attack or blocking. The 1st landing frame can't be canceled and is the reason why there's no tripguard after a jump.
    I wanted to ask a question along these lines. Let's take Ken for example. Ken jumps toward me and I do a meaty cr.roundhouse in order to trip him as he lands, but he executes a dragon punch the moment he hits the floor. Meaty sweep loses.

    I presume this is a result of lag?

    Am I right in thinking that if Ken is to jump forward and do a dragon punch with the correct timing that there would be just 1 frame where he is able to be tripped, so the meaty should not lose?

    What I'm getting at is if Ken does an empty jump toward, will a meaty sweep beat whatever he tries to do as he lands? What about landing and throwing?
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    A sweep will always beat a jumpin if timed right. If you miss it's due to bad timing or lag.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Attacking (unless it is a tatsu*) does not make Ken escape sweeps or affects it somehow, apart from often hitting the extended hitbox that crouching characters have. If the sweep is there and in range, waiting for Ken to land, ken gets swept 100% of the time. However, it may be that the sweep was just out of range or Ken's landing frame, which is quite common, so Ken lands, recovers (just one frame), does a SRK and hits the extended limb. As for throws, I believe perfectly timed throws on landing always win, unless against shit like dictator's strong or Chun's head stomp.

    Or lag. Yes, it can be lag.

    Edit: crap, blitzfu beat me!

    *cos tatsu is even worse, it extends the recovery time
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    *Does a reversal throw after stun beat out a normal throw?

    Yes, on the very first frame of recovery, the -waking- character has a 100% chance of throwing a -standing- character in range via a reversal throw. The -waking- character also has a 100% chance of throwing a -standing- character who's also trying to throw at the first active frame; this means the -waking- character has priority on throws on the reversal frame. Also, on the very first frame of recovery after stun, even if the -waking- character doesn't reversal, the -standing- opponent only has a 50% chance of throwing the -waking- character anyway (the other 50% of the time, the -standing- character gets a normal instead).

    So essentially, Shari is correct: in 100% of the time, a reversal throw will beat out a normal throw. This is a special frame where this case occurs. On the frame after the reversal frame, if both character throw, the situation becomes 50/50 again. You can test by frame for yourself like I did with a Ryu mirror: have P1 LP and then on the 8th of 11 recovery frames start the throw motion for either/both sides and you'll see what I'm saying in action.
    I'm working on a dutch ST guide.

    What is the case for reversal throws against command throws?
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    What is the case for reversal throws against command throws?

    Reversal throw beats non-reversal throw.
    Double reversal throw, and double non-reversal-throw are toss-ups.
    It doesn't matter whether the throws are command or not.

    As far as I'm aware the differences between normal and command throws are that command throws can't be teched/softened or mashed out of, give super bar, are executed differently and tend to have better reach and damage.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Reversal throw beats non-reversal throw.
    Double reversal throw, and double non-reversal-throw are toss-ups.
    It doesn't matter whether the throws are command or not.

    As far as I'm aware the differences between normal and command throws are that command throws can't be teched/softened or mashed out of, give super bar, are executed differently and tend to have better reach and damage.
    that's what I thought thanks.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    No matter what or how, if 2 throws happen at the same time, they have 50/50 chance , its confirmed by SF2 director:
    http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/akira-nishitani-speaks-sf2-director-154210.0.html


    nin_akira said:

    An SF2 detail anecdote. On the occasion that two opposing processes had to occur on the same frame, I thought it would be unfair to give one player priority over the other, so the programmer made the order of processes during an individual frame rearrange at random. And as a result of that attacks that become active on their very first frame like Blanka's Bush Buster and such become unblockable 50% of the time. Although that's my fault for making them active on the first frame in the first place.


    nin_akira said:

    Like you said, when two opposing attacks hit at the same time the result is that they trade. The circumstances I was referring to were things that we otherwise couldn't do anything about. The one that comes to mind is if both players tried to throw each other at the same time. Was there anything else?

    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 284
    Does it matter which button you throw with?

    Also, this is just how it feels to me in my experience,and I am sure there's tons of evidence against it, but certain characters seem to win grabs more often than others. Bison and Vega for example seem to beat Chun more often, while Ryu and DJ don't. Seems to be some grab priority for each character (I actually let this dictate how I play, I rarely tick Vega unless desperate).

    Don't kill me.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Random wrote: »
    Does it matter which button you throw with?

    Also, this is just how it feels to me in my experience,and I am sure there's tons of evidence against it, but certain characters seem to win grabs more often than others. Bison and Vega for example seem to beat Chun more often, while Ryu and DJ don't. Seems to be some grab priority for each character (I actually let this dictate how I play, I rarely tick Vega unless desperate).

    Don't kill me.

    Depends on what you mean. Certain throws are different and be used in different setups. For example, Honda's strong throw can be used to go directly into a safe jump setup against Guile and Deejay, whereas he has to use fierce on Claw to get the same setup. Fierce throw is also used in the corner to setup his cross under sweep setups.

    Characters also have different throw ranges. Vega and Fei have booty throw range, whereas Sim, Boxer, and Blanka have extremely good throw ranges. There's a myth that Boxer's strong throw has more range than his fierce one, but I don't think it's been proven.

    Whoever throws first will get the throw. Simple as that. In the event that two players press the throw button at the EXACT same time, which is rare, the game will randomly chooses who wins. While this sounds like a shitty mechanic, it really doesn't affect the game that much, since the odds of two players landing a throw on the exact same frame is pretty slim.

    There's no such thing as grab priority. Whoever is in range and presses the button first, will get the throw.

    Side note: Despite Vega's low throw range, his insanely fast walk speed makes up for it, which makes it feel like he's difficult to tick.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714

    I've read that portion of the wiki, but has it been confirmed? Seems odd that only one character would have an expanded throw range on one of their throws, while everybody else's is the same. How was it itested?
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 284
    I see, so it may matter which throw is used. I don't want to make anyone into info servants, but I'd highly appreciate info on Chun's grabs; specifically if there's situational uses for each, like Honda's, and why.

    So if there's a myth about Boxer, that means not all grab mechanics are 100% understood? Some things do seem fishy...

    Yeah, I remember you told me about Vega's grab situation before, thanks. That walk speed is nuts, haha.

    In a single match the 50/50 wouldn't matter much statistically but it definitely comes up over thousands of matches. A clean break would be preferable in a game with so much grabbing. Ain't gonna happen but still.

  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    eltrouble wrote: »

    I've read that portion of the wiki, but has it been confirmed? Seems odd that only one character would have an expanded throw range on one of their throws, while everybody else's is the same. How was it itested?
    probably with the hitbox viewer, it also shows throw ranges as boxes
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Random wrote: »
    I see, so it may matter which throw is used. I don't want to make anyone into info servants, but I'd highly appreciate info on Chun's grabs; specifically if there's situational uses for each, like Honda's, and why.

    So if there's a myth about Boxer, that means not all grab mechanics are 100% understood? Some things do seem fishy...

    Yeah, I remember you told me about Vega's grab situation before, thanks. That walk speed is nuts, haha.

    In a single match the 50/50 wouldn't matter much statistically but it definitely comes up over thousands of matches. A clean break would be preferable in a game with so much grabbing. Ain't gonna happen but still.

    Not much info on Chun's grab. She has two, but her strong one does ridiculously good damage. So whenever possible, use her strong though. Obviously if you're trying to counter throw, I would just piano or double tap her throw buttons, just so you might have a higher chance of being successful.

    Grab mechanics, from a practical perspective, are pretty much understood for the most. The practical mechanics of it are understood. Boxer has a great throw range period, so it's hard to deduce from personal experience whether or not his throw differences make an ACTUAL difference in a match.

    Clean breaks are nice, but look rather odd, as throw breaks don't actually happen in real life, but soft teching a throw would. I don't know, it seems to work within the flow of the game. The only issue I have is that certain characters can repeat throw loops over and over again, which does seem ridiculous, but you just gotta learn to roll with the punches. Learning how to counterthrow is just as important a skill as learning how to reversal properly, both of which are difficult.
    probably with the hitbox viewer, it also shows throw ranges as boxes

    I'm not sure which version you're talking about, but the one that I've used doesnt throw throw ranges. Either way, how exactly would it show a 0-frame startup throw, since there's no animation to it whatsoever? I'm curious if these things were actually discovered, or if it's just rumors that float around. Wiki doesn't show throw differences, but it just mentions it as a blurb.

  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    @eltrouble, lets bring @born2spd to it, he is the one who has added a ton of data to the wiki, hopefully he can add a visual of both boxer ranges, mp n hp
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Thanks for tagging me up bastard, i would never see this topic since its inside the HDR subforum.
    Anyway, all the explanation regarding my findings about Boxers throws are in this topic: it explains not only the difference between strong and fierce throws, but also the differences when facing different characters.
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/155654/boxer-s-throw-range
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 284
    Glad I asked. I just use medium punch throws since I'm already tapping it usually...thanks for the info!

    Well, I read earlier in this topic where some were debating simultaneous grabs don't do 50/50 but some other way. It definitely seems 50/50 to me with at least in mirrors...I forgot what the guy said happened instead.

    That is true, clean breaks do seem dumb and the flow works okay in this game even with the mechanic. Yeah, the loops suck but at least most need to work to get them.

    ^ So it's a context sensitive grab? Too bad they don't tweak everyone that way to balance the games intead of making a total change. It makes more sense that way, and would really make you learn matchups.
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